Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,
Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of
Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.
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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent
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Speaker 2: it just means the absolute world to have your support.
Speaker 2: But enough with that, Let's get to the show.
Speaker 1: All right, guys, we got a special guest in the
Speaker 1: house this morning to talk to us about media and
Speaker 1: also twenty twenty four politics, the former host of Hardball
Speaker 1: with Chris Matthews, the one and only Chris Matthews.
Speaker 3: Welcome, Thank you, sir, thank you. I'm here.
Speaker 1: So let's start with a little bit of Biden administration stuff.
Speaker 1: What do you give him as a grade on policy
Speaker 1: and what do you give him as a grade?
Speaker 3: Well, I'm a political expert.
Speaker 4: That's what I'm at, that's what i'm good at, and
Speaker 4: I think he's going to be going to face a
Speaker 4: close election next year. I think to twenty four even so,
Speaker 4: I'd say, uh, he should be able to carry the
Speaker 4: usual democratic states and lose the usual Republican states and
Speaker 4: will decide the election, probably in Arizona, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Georgia.
Speaker 4: Although I think George is getting very tough for Trump
Speaker 4: right now. It looks like that governor's pretty good, tough,
Speaker 4: strong guy camp.
Speaker 2: So you think it'll come down to the time.
Speaker 4: I think, Look, the economy is the numbers are really interesting.
Speaker 4: You know, I never thought of unemployment this low. It's
Speaker 4: very low. But there's also the inflation threat. And I
Speaker 4: don't think inflation goes away when they go from say
Speaker 4: nine percent down to something lower.
Speaker 3: I think people will still feel it.
Speaker 4: Yes, and when they and a guy complained the other
Speaker 4: day about Philly, you know, Philly chief, what do you
Speaker 4: call it, the chiefs? It was the chief, it was
Speaker 4: the cheese itself. He's just complaining about phil And I
Speaker 4: think people don't like prices. They don't like the gas.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And if you're a working guy or working woman, you
Speaker 4: have to travel fifteen miles to go to work. You
Speaker 4: don't live near buying some elite neighborhood. You got to
Speaker 4: travel that misgas every day. That's a tax. It's a tax, yeah,
Speaker 4: and you don't get you don't get anything out of it.
Speaker 4: You don't get an extra speed out of it. You
Speaker 4: just pay a lot more for gas. And I think
Speaker 4: that's real. So I think where inflation is going to
Speaker 4: be if Trump does well, meaning if he wins despite
Speaker 4: all the legal challenges he faces, if he wins, it'll
Speaker 4: be because of inflation and unemployment is lower. But that
Speaker 4: only affects the unemployed. Are the employed, I mean, that's
Speaker 4: only a percentage. It's very good to get it low
Speaker 4: because it gets marginal people to work. I think one
Speaker 4: thing really good thing about the economy today is that
Speaker 4: people that normally wouldn't get a job are working because
Speaker 4: they've they've gotten brought onto the workforce by salaries.
Speaker 1: So what do you think about from a political perspective,
Speaker 1: the idea of leaning into this label Bidenomics, fusing his
Speaker 1: name with an economy that the overwhelming majority of people
Speaker 1: of people say is not working for them.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I think that he's done some things
Speaker 4: that Trump hasn't done done. Donald Trump came into office
Speaker 4: saying he was going to do infrastructure and build up
Speaker 4: the economy, build up the roads, highways, bridges, everything and
Speaker 4: the new stuff.
Speaker 3: He didn't do it. Why didn't you do it? That's
Speaker 3: my big question.
Speaker 4: Why didn't Trump do the every Even demagogues like Huey
Speaker 4: Long and Hitler and people like that, they all build stuff.
Speaker 4: Building is what demagogues do. It's one way to reach
Speaker 4: the people.
Speaker 3: Why didn't he do it?
Speaker 1: So if he was so bad, no, no.
Speaker 3: That's not so bad. It's just said that Biden has
Speaker 3: done this.
Speaker 1: But if he's done better on these areas, why are
Speaker 1: they tied? And then you also have, obviously all the indictments.
Speaker 1: I mean, this man may be facing prison time by
Speaker 1: the time the election comes around. Why is it a
Speaker 1: jump ball? Isn't that a you know, show some weakness
Speaker 1: on the Democratic the other side?
Speaker 4: I think it is charisma. I think Biden may suffer
Speaker 4: from that. I don't think he has the charm that
Speaker 4: Biden that Barack Obama had or Reagan had. I think
Speaker 4: I'm writing about that now. I mean, who's good on television.
Speaker 4: Let's pig blunt. Who's good on television and politics that matters?
Speaker 4: Trump is good on television. When he says something, he
Speaker 4: doesn't reconsider his words. He says at once. He doesn't
Speaker 4: say I mean that, folks, literally, folks, he just said it.
Speaker 4: And when Trump speaks, it's loud, and I think that's
Speaker 4: powerful stuff. And Reagan could do it that, Barack Obama
Speaker 4: could do it. Jack Kennedy could do it. Roosevelt could
Speaker 4: do it on the radio. But Biden does have that problem.
Speaker 4: He's older too, he's eighty.
Speaker 3: His problem is the gravitas doesn't come through. I think
Speaker 3: that's part of it.
Speaker 4: A lot of this is cosmetic, and let's say said,
Speaker 4: a lot of politics is how you look, what do
Speaker 4: you sound like?
Speaker 3: Are you convincing?
Speaker 4: And even if if the policies are good, he's got
Speaker 4: to go out and sell them.
Speaker 2: What about Kamala Harris? Do you think she's a good
Speaker 2: heir apparent for the Democratic Party?
Speaker 4: I think she'd have a hard time winning a general
Speaker 4: election on her own.
Speaker 2: Why did he make a mistake.
Speaker 4: Because I don't think that she has gone out and
Speaker 4: talked to the American people. You know, when you're running
Speaker 4: for office, you have to make yourself likable. You have
Speaker 4: to make yourself likable, and this guy did. DeSantis isn't
Speaker 4: able to do that. He doesn't know how to do
Speaker 4: small talk. He can't talk to kids, he can't talk
Speaker 4: to regular people. A lot of people have had this
Speaker 4: problem I mean, John Carrey had this problem. Watermandale had
Speaker 4: this problem. A lot of people have come off as
Speaker 4: too official. They don't know how to talk to regular people.
Speaker 4: W could do it like a bandit. He may have
Speaker 4: been he took us under the wrong war, but he
Speaker 4: knew how to talk to regular people. And that talent
Speaker 4: hasn't come from the Florida governor. And for some reason,
Speaker 4: Kamala thinks she's she comes off as as prosecutor, like
Speaker 4: she's talking about people to disagree with their own abortion rights. Well,
Speaker 4: they're not wrong. I mean, they may be wrong in
Speaker 4: your thinking. They may you may disagree with them, but
Speaker 4: they're not evil, you know, And and that's not and
Speaker 4: portraying it always being on the attack doesn't make you
Speaker 4: popular to make the list of all the popular prosecutors
Speaker 4: there are.
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, they're just not.
Speaker 4: And I think you have to tell stories that if
Speaker 4: I were in her corner and I used to do
Speaker 4: this for a living, I tell her tell stories about
Speaker 4: growing up with a tiger mother, an Indian American mother,
Speaker 4: that must have been really tough. You have all a's
Speaker 4: you know what it's like. You can imagine what it's like,
Speaker 4: you know, and tell her what is what that's like,
Speaker 4: what's like having a Jamaican father with that, what is
Speaker 4: that mixture to cultures?
Speaker 3: What was that like? Tell us something that makes that
Speaker 3: brings you into your life?
Speaker 4: And everybody, everybody tells the narrative Bill Clinton was the
Speaker 4: best of the best in you was good. Sure, and
Speaker 4: you have to tell your stories. And people say, you
Speaker 4: know what, that's not quite my story. But you know,
Speaker 4: I think it's interesting if I want to follow that
Speaker 4: person and she doesn't do that, and I don't understand.
Speaker 4: I don't understand a politician who doesn't try to be liked.
Speaker 4: And I think, uh, Jack Kennedy, people used to say,
Speaker 4: I've written a lot of books about him and that
Speaker 4: he that everybody thought he liked them. That's a talent
Speaker 4: that people thought that he liked them.
Speaker 3: Well, does that come across with her?
Speaker 1: Do you think the American people don't think that? It
Speaker 1: doesn't really matter what I mean, the people don't.
Speaker 4: You know, some people come off as a Michelle Obama's
Speaker 4: very popular, but she doesn't have to.
Speaker 3: She doesn't have the approving voice either. It's not it's
Speaker 3: not common.
Speaker 4: Harry didn't have it. It's it's not getting people to
Speaker 4: do what you wanted to do. It's getting to like
Speaker 4: you first, and then they might do what you wanted
Speaker 4: to do. But to convince people, by the way politics
Speaker 4: is simple. You have to like the persons, just so simple.
Speaker 1: I mean that's the first step. But you know, to go.
Speaker 3: Back to trust them and trust them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and to to go back to the Biden critique.
Speaker 1: Isn't there more though than just you know, the messaging
Speaker 1: or the cosmetic or his inability that you convey gravitas? Well,
Speaker 1: we're asking you, well it is.
Speaker 3: Why do you have to repeat yourself.
Speaker 1: When you look at the numbers? Though, When you look
Speaker 1: at the numbers in terms of how people are doing economically,
Speaker 1: you do have this mixed picture. I mean, the White
Speaker 1: House can rightly point to one low unemployment rate as
Speaker 1: you did, but when you look at the percentage of
Speaker 1: people who are food and secure a struggling to pay
Speaker 1: their bills, trillion dollars in debt, credit card debt, we
Speaker 1: just hit that milestone as the nation. So there is
Speaker 1: real economics.
Speaker 3: There's people living at.
Speaker 4: The edge where they can't raise three hundred bucks if
Speaker 4: they need. You've seen these studies exactly. You can't raise
Speaker 4: three hundred bucks.
Speaker 1: Right, So isn't there more to the problems for Biden
Speaker 1: and why he's tied with Trump?
Speaker 3: Well, then there's then there's.
Speaker 4: Always going to be problems when you just establish as
Speaker 4: the American condition, it's always going to be like that wellistic,
Speaker 4: nihilistic got tay Ronald Reagan got real liked the morning
Speaker 4: at America.
Speaker 3: What was the unemployment rate? What do you think it is?
Speaker 4: Unemployment rate was I don't know seven. So, I mean,
Speaker 4: you can't just quantify and say it's.
Speaker 1: Not just about where people are, it's where they they're going.
Speaker 1: And so during the pandemic, for example, you know, there
Speaker 1: were a lot of problems, there was a lot of pain,
Speaker 1: but you also had a child tax credit that was
Speaker 1: put in place that genuinely reduced child poverty. You actually
Speaker 1: had homelessness significantly reduced because you had eviction moratoriums, you
Speaker 1: had expanded access to healthcare, and you had actually suicides
Speaker 1: went down un even.
Speaker 3: In Michigan on hold on.
Speaker 1: So it is possible to improve the material condition of Americans.
Speaker 1: We've seen it throughout American history. We saw it just
Speaker 1: now in the pandemic. When the government wants to deliver
Speaker 1: so to say to throw up your hands like, well,
Speaker 1: this is just the American condition.
Speaker 3: Running.
Speaker 4: We're running two trillion dollars in data, in full employment.
Speaker 4: It is basically full em playment. You can't have more
Speaker 4: expansive economic policies than that.
Speaker 3: You can't. You blow the whole thing.
Speaker 1: You did, and it worked very well for people. It
Speaker 1: worked well for lots of people who had more money
Speaker 1: in their bank account and where childhood poverty was much
Speaker 1: lower the pandemic. And then you also had, you know,
Speaker 1: talk about the FDR era. I mean, we had a
Speaker 1: new deal that you know, built out the American middle class.
Speaker 1: This is the era you were growing up. I know
Speaker 1: you're right, things are possible. You can't just say, oh,
Speaker 1: well this.
Speaker 3: Is more money. Yeah, spend more money and tax the rich. Okay,
Speaker 3: how are you going to do that?
Speaker 1: You're going to tax the rich?
Speaker 3: How do you do that?
Speaker 1: The wealthiest among us?
Speaker 4: Who runs the runs the Congress?
Speaker 1: The wealthy? But isn't that the part of the problem.
Speaker 3: So what's your argument?
Speaker 1: My argument is.
Speaker 4: The wealthy shouldn't be wealthy and the Democrats should be
Speaker 4: running the Congress.
Speaker 2: Well, I know, my argument is the American condition. We
Speaker 2: can't do anything more.
Speaker 3: Like I can tell you we're running.
Speaker 4: We're running in something that's very close to read more inflation,
Speaker 4: very close.
Speaker 3: So what do you do.
Speaker 4: You bring up, bring up prices if it look demand
Speaker 4: pull more money you spend, the more prices go up.
Speaker 3: Right, do we agree on that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: No, I actually don't fully agree on that because of
Speaker 1: what we saw coming out of the pandemic. You know,
Speaker 1: the argument was always just because of all the big
Speaker 1: government spending, because God forbid, we give working class people
Speaker 1: a little bit of money in their pockets. At the
Speaker 1: same time, increasingly we've seen a lot of the price
Speaker 1: increases were from corporations who decided they could price gouge
Speaker 1: and use the excuse of inflation to lift prices significantly. Now,
Speaker 1: that was seen as a fringe theory at the time
Speaker 1: when it was first floated, like just a bunch of
Speaker 1: lefty wars that think this. We now have increasing evidence
Speaker 1: that that was a big part of it. We also
Speaker 1: had coming out of the pandemic, huge supply chain disruptions
Speaker 1: that were a real problem, and also the Ukraine War
Speaker 1: contributed to that significantly. So to just say, oh, they
Speaker 1: spent money and that's what happened. I think that's a
Speaker 1: very simplistic understanding of what was going on. Well, all right,
Speaker 1: well disagree.
Speaker 4: I argue that the more government spending, whether the government
Speaker 4: or from the private sector or investment or consumer spending,
Speaker 4: all that spending drives up prices.
Speaker 3: All that drives up prices.
Speaker 2: So I think we need to spend less if you
Speaker 2: want to have left lesson. So we talked to her
Speaker 2: about inflation. I want to ask you about the media.
Speaker 2: I grew up kind of watching you on television.
Speaker 3: This show.
Speaker 2: Kind of our popularity and the existence of a lot
Speaker 2: of the Internet has kind of been in reaction to
Speaker 2: cable news, of which you were a product of for decades.
Speaker 2: Why do you think that trust in media right now
Speaker 2: is so low?
Speaker 4: Too many voices, too many, too many different voices. You
Speaker 4: can watch Fox, and you can watch MSNBC or CNN,
Speaker 4: and you can watch different stories.
Speaker 2: So you just think optionality is what has reduced trust.
Speaker 4: Trust is the problem of all media because you have
Speaker 4: to give the whole picture, Like you have to talk inflation,
Speaker 4: you have to talk prices, you have to put it
Speaker 4: all together. And we're trying to run an American economy
Speaker 4: that's healthy and for example, if you talk about Hunter,
Speaker 4: why not to talk about Jared No, no, no, no,
Speaker 4: just a minute. Who else does that?
Speaker 2: Not very many? No?
Speaker 3: Anybody right? Anybody right?
Speaker 4: So nobody talks about the holistic situation of relatives and
Speaker 4: how they might be exploiting the situation. Yeah, well that's
Speaker 4: a problem because everybody is watching. Well, the weu is
Speaker 4: right here has limited So who else is doing that?
Speaker 3: Who else is doing the whole picture?
Speaker 4: When they talk about things like you're talking about inflation
Speaker 4: and the problems of the poor and everything else and
Speaker 4: homelessness and putting it all together, and you're talking this
Speaker 4: one point of view, putting it all together. What happens
Speaker 4: to the average person, The middle class family has to
Speaker 4: pay bills when prices go up, they got to PIV.
Speaker 4: When you're retired, you don't have any income coming in.
Speaker 4: That's already there. It's fixed. These are realities. You cannot
Speaker 4: hurt one group and say I'm helping the other, because
Speaker 4: when you're president you have to put it all together.
Speaker 4: In the media, I do think that if you look
Speaker 4: at who watches MSNBC and who watches CNN and seeing
Speaker 4: an an experiment with Chris Slick with going independent or
Speaker 4: rather going non partisan. It's a very difficult time to
Speaker 4: go nonpartisans. Yeah, because you have to say, well, I
Speaker 4: don't know whether Trump won the election in twenty twenty. Well,
Speaker 4: if you want to say that, I think you're an idiot.
Speaker 3: But that's all right.
Speaker 2: Huh.
Speaker 4: You say that, and you're saying, I'm not going to
Speaker 4: deal with factual news. I'm not going to go with
Speaker 4: which states voted. I'm not going with how the electrics
Speaker 4: were counted. Honestly, I'm not going to I'm going to
Speaker 4: just say, well, they're all the same. No, they're not
Speaker 4: all the same.
Speaker 2: And I think you did a lot of this at MSNBC.
Speaker 3: What did I do with the figure pointing well, you know,
Speaker 3: what did I do? What did I do? Here? Well,
Speaker 3: what did I do?
Speaker 2: I saw you do that a lot.
Speaker 3: No, I never did you what did I do?
Speaker 2: I mean while you were in the chair at MSNBC,
Speaker 2: specifically during the Trump years. I mean you're talking about
Speaker 2: how Fox every criticism you just gave. I mean we're
Speaker 2: also talking about I watched on your network. Russia Gate
Speaker 2: coverage about Trump was an asset from nineteen eighty seven
Speaker 2: about selective covers or all this. I mean, do you
Speaker 2: still feel good about that coverage? Like, because you're.
Speaker 3: Talking about that. That's the problem.
Speaker 4: The problem was that we had a lot of points
Speaker 4: where there was would look like collusion with the Russians
Speaker 4: showing up all the time, Russians showing up at conventions,
Speaker 4: what are they doing at conventions? Throwing up in meetings
Speaker 4: with Trump, all.
Speaker 3: This kind of all those issues together created.
Speaker 4: The situation looked like it was all connected and that
Speaker 4: never was connected. That's a fact, okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so do you have any regrets about the
Speaker 1: coverage during that time or you know.
Speaker 4: I think whenever you whenever you're going to you're following
Speaker 4: a story as it develops, and you look at it
Speaker 4: developing and developing and developing, and all these these points
Speaker 4: seem to hit and all the connections with Russia again
Speaker 4: and again and again, and we never got to the.
Speaker 3: End of the story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but as a journalist, you can't just float things
Speaker 1: that are wildlike oh, maybe you said.
Speaker 3: That's a floating thing. With every fact, we don't every
Speaker 3: fact we dealt with was a fact.
Speaker 1: But we watched, you know, segments about hey, maybe it
Speaker 1: was a Russian asset since nineteen eighty seven. Hey, maybe
Speaker 1: these peas? That was on Crisches's show. Jonathan Chate said
Speaker 1: that one's show. You know a lot of veracity given
Speaker 1: to the alleged p tape, et cetera. You don't think
Speaker 1: the network got out beyond what the facts suggested.
Speaker 4: I think I think that we did what we had
Speaker 4: with what we had, and we.
Speaker 3: Didn't have enough.
Speaker 2: O gotcha and you didn't have enough. I guess I'm
Speaker 2: curious through MSNBC now that you're on your outside of
Speaker 2: your independent with your reflections of what went wrong. You know,
Speaker 2: you start in the nineteen nineties on cable television, the
Speaker 2: country was a lot more united. Things start to go downhill.
Speaker 2: You've said here it's optionality. I'm just well, you said
Speaker 2: you said that one of these I.
Speaker 4: Said, you know, you know what we're talking about people
Speaker 4: talking to the audience, confirming right with the audience already.
Speaker 2: But don't you think that's what MSNBC did? I mean,
Speaker 2: that's you're asking me about MSNBC. Ask me about me, okay,
Speaker 2: I'll ask you. I mean, you were a fixture on
Speaker 2: that network for.
Speaker 3: Do you use these terms?
Speaker 4: I was a fixture, I was a product of I
Speaker 4: don't think these are causalities.
Speaker 3: I'm not a function of individual.
Speaker 4: Who I am and I've always been who I am. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and I may disagree with other people on the same network.
Speaker 4: I don't know what you're talking about, this we and
Speaker 4: us and all this thing.
Speaker 1: Let me let me ask a little bit specifically about
Speaker 1: the twenty twenty sixteenth primary coverage, because I'm curious about
Speaker 1: how this went down. You know, this was after I'd
Speaker 1: been let go from the network, so I don't have
Speaker 1: any insight into this era. And you would think that MSNBC,
Speaker 1: being this liberal progressive network overwhelmingly and you certainly had
Speaker 1: your own point of view, that they might at least
Speaker 1: be a little bit Bernie curious, maybe a little bit,
Speaker 1: you know, inclined towards Bernie Sanders. You had this overwhelming
Speaker 1: or who would be for Bernie Sanders? Well, I'm saying
Speaker 1: who was? That's what I'm saying, is that there you are?
Speaker 4: That means you are that do you think other people
Speaker 4: should be for Bernie Sanders?
Speaker 1: Well, I'm asking yes, your time. Hold on, Chris, hold on,
Speaker 1: let me get to a question.
Speaker 3: Answering the question.
Speaker 1: No, But let me I haven't even gotten to the
Speaker 1: typical question.
Speaker 3: This is a cable news to net work. Chris, Well,
Speaker 3: you're answering the question with your answer.
Speaker 1: Your question, you had instead of you know, maybe a
Speaker 1: variety of opinions or whatever, you had an overwhelming every
Speaker 1: single host just completely opposed it, completely contemp fal of
Speaker 1: the movement or at times gripped by like sheer terror
Speaker 1: that he might want. Was that, hold on, hold on examples? Okay,
Speaker 1: well names you did float that you might be rounded
Speaker 1: up and executed in Central Park if he won. So
Speaker 1: you also I didn't, like.
Speaker 4: I mean very clear, never I never said anything about Hitler.
Speaker 4: But what I'm I know, I never said anything about Hitler.
Speaker 1: Okay, there was I believe a Nazi compared no.
Speaker 3: No, I was. You have to answer.
Speaker 1: That he might be, but this is true. You you
Speaker 1: might be rounded up in Central Park and executive he
Speaker 1: was president. Okay, So as one example, but you have
Speaker 1: to say that overall, ten of the tenor of the
Speaker 1: coverage of the network was very negative. Was that individuals
Speaker 1: making choices? Was that like a voice coming down from
Speaker 1: that or was that a problem of group thinks?
Speaker 2: It was all individual at your time?
Speaker 3: And then who would have talked to me.
Speaker 1: There's lots of friends in this town. You're certainly in
Speaker 1: touch with network executives who want to have you know.
Speaker 3: I never got a point of view told to me
Speaker 3: from anybody in the executive role.
Speaker 1: So it just happenstance that every single person at the
Speaker 1: network this way.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't think the hate is the
Speaker 3: right word.
Speaker 1: Looks like it from the outside. People can speak to
Speaker 1: their own view at the time.
Speaker 4: No, I thought at the time, just to put this
Speaker 4: back in where I'm factual and accountable. I thought when
Speaker 4: Bernie was headed toward winning in New Hampshire and winning
Speaker 4: in a Nevada big time, and I couldn't see even
Speaker 4: results coming in from the others, the moderates from Biden
Speaker 4: in those right, and I got I get concerned that
Speaker 4: they've disappeared, that they weren't even there, because in the
Speaker 4: afternoon in Nevada, we didn't have any numbers coming in
Speaker 4: from anybody but Bernie.
Speaker 3: Bernie was winning that thing in a landslide.
Speaker 4: And anybody who'd been through nineteen seventy two knew what
Speaker 4: happens when the Democratic Party goes that far left. And
Speaker 4: if you put a person like Bernie Sanders up there.
Speaker 4: It looked to me like a rerun of nineteen seventy
Speaker 4: two McGovern mcgovernor, and I saw McGovern got beaten in
Speaker 4: almost every state, and I think, and I thought that
Speaker 4: was wrong for the Democrats to do that. I thought
Speaker 4: Bernie was probably or Elizabeth was going to win. And
Speaker 4: of course I didn't happy, but I wasn't happy with
Speaker 4: either one of them. But what do you think, Why
Speaker 4: would I be happy with Why would I be happy
Speaker 4: with people they're probably.
Speaker 3: Going to lose?
Speaker 1: That's your opinion. I mean, that's not what the polls
Speaker 1: were showing in terms of how he was performing in
Speaker 1: hypothetical matchup matchups against Trump, both in twenty sixteen and
Speaker 1: in twenty two.
Speaker 3: You're allowed, that's an arguments.
Speaker 1: That opinion, but I mean it didn't match up with
Speaker 1: the Well, let me know.
Speaker 3: The Democratic Party got together.
Speaker 4: And basically Jim Clyburn in South Carolina delivered a seventy
Speaker 4: percent victory for Biden. That was enough to convince the
Speaker 4: others like like Mike Bloomberg and Amy Kloscher and met
Speaker 4: Pete Bodhaje Edge to withdraw because they saw, for whatever reason,
Speaker 4: they saw this heading And there's only one kendidate that
Speaker 4: could win.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, but don't you think the media played a
Speaker 1: part in also convincing people like this is the guy
Speaker 1: that can win. Joe Biden is the one.
Speaker 3: If the media control thing, Mario Cuomo would be president.
Speaker 4: General power would be in the media has had favorites forever,
Speaker 4: General Pale, We've had a lot of favorites that have
Speaker 4: gone nowhere.
Speaker 2: Well, we could the other way. Okay, you you were
Speaker 2: at a network and your show was beloved by many
Speaker 2: Democratic primary voters. You don't think you had any influence
Speaker 2: amongst those voters.
Speaker 3: It was pretty clear that I wasn't.
Speaker 4: I mean I think that the people I thought the
Speaker 4: people around me were probably with Bernie. I don't think
Speaker 4: there was an animosity. It's not interesting.
Speaker 3: It's true.
Speaker 2: You know that people around you were like at the
Speaker 2: network group or do you mean the people who watch
Speaker 2: your show.
Speaker 4: I thought there was a an ambivalence about Bernie winning
Speaker 4: and a.
Speaker 3: Sense of this is fine, that's all. Okay, no more
Speaker 3: than that.
Speaker 4: And I said, and I was the one hard strick
Speaker 4: and that this is going to be a big defeat
Speaker 4: it And I think you're wrong about thinking that the
Speaker 4: middle class of the United States who run elections.
Speaker 3: Basically, we're not going to like Bernie.
Speaker 1: But why do you assert that so confident when first.
Speaker 3: Of all, he called himself a socialist.
Speaker 1: I'm just not going to sell I actually agree with
Speaker 1: you that the label no, no, it.
Speaker 3: Wasn't label, it was his name, it's what he said.
Speaker 1: But Chris, when you look at what he actually supported,
Speaker 1: things like healthcare for all, those are popular things, right,
Speaker 1: living wage fifteen dollars men, that's very popular. In fact,
Speaker 1: you know, the student debt cancelation is something that Biden
Speaker 1: has picked up in his movie.
Speaker 3: Bernie was able to put forward.
Speaker 4: But I thought they were very popular Vermont and they
Speaker 4: think he's very popular winning elections up there, and I
Speaker 4: don't think it would have sold with the country.
Speaker 2: I have a question about you specifically. So you've kind
Speaker 2: of lionized like biparts and politics. You've written books about it,
Speaker 2: Tipper and Reagan. I'm curious do you think, then, you
Speaker 2: know we're talking here about Trump and Bernie, don't you
Speaker 2: think those are kind of indictments of those type of politics,
Speaker 2: the bipartisan kind of the lionization of that of the lionization. Yeah,
Speaker 2: did you read my book no, I didn't read it. Okay,
Speaker 2: so you're talking about well, I've seen the title of it.
Speaker 3: What are you talking about that?
Speaker 2: Talking about you?
Speaker 1: Where? Do you think that the populist energy around Bernie
Speaker 1: and Trump both came from what's what? What is this?
Speaker 2: In response to? And to me it seems to respond.
Speaker 4: I think I think a lot of people are not happy. Yeah,
Speaker 4: generally speaking, they did, they don't. I think there's a
Speaker 4: lot of of animus about power, about intellectuals.
Speaker 3: Are people doing the show?
Speaker 4: And I think there's a lot of anger in working
Speaker 4: people about the Democratic Party.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's justified?
Speaker 4: I think there's anybody that looks down on other people
Speaker 4: has a problem.
Speaker 3: It's creating a problem.
Speaker 1: And you think there are elements, at least a Democratic
Speaker 1: Party they look down on people.
Speaker 3: What do you think?
Speaker 1: I think so, But I'm curious.
Speaker 3: I think so too.
Speaker 2: Well. I guess it comes back to then how do
Speaker 2: we get out of this?
Speaker 4: Well, look, if you get you know, if you want
Speaker 4: to get a really good socialist newspaper, I haven't read it.
Speaker 4: So let's find one, okay, because there isn't one. Because
Speaker 4: that's where Bernie's pushing big government role a lot of
Speaker 4: government responsibility, a lot of government taking, possibly taking roles taking.
Speaker 1: I mean Bernie at this point is basically a loyal
Speaker 1: soldier for Joe Biden or Bernie threat is completely neutralized
Speaker 1: to the extent that it ever existed. Would you say
Speaker 1: that's true, Well.
Speaker 4: You say things, and then I got to think about
Speaker 4: whether that's true or not. He's neutralized. I think he's been.
Speaker 4: He and Biden, I think are on the phone a lot.
Speaker 4: I think he supported Biden. I think he knew that
Speaker 4: Biden was the one who could win, and I think
Speaker 4: he saw him winning the Democratic Party, and I think
Speaker 4: the maybe he has a sense of history. I don't know.
Speaker 4: Bernie ran sort of wild liberal left wing politics up
Speaker 4: in the Vermont and finally beat the Democratic Party. You
Speaker 4: never joined the Democratic Party. Biden's head of the Democratic Party.
Speaker 4: He has a different role this. Democrats are not socialists.
Speaker 4: They're They're like Roosevelt. They believe in a little more
Speaker 4: government in places like uh social Security, Medicare, Medicaid.
Speaker 3: But those issues have all been joined by Trump.
Speaker 4: Trump completely agrees with leaving sub security alone, He leaves
Speaker 4: many care, medic He has gone completely against the Republican
Speaker 4: thinking about fiscal austhority the Democrats have gotten. And I
Speaker 4: just read this piece about new monetary policy. I think
Speaker 4: it's wacky. They just spend all you want, print the money.
Speaker 4: It's in the paper today, Robert Zelig. Print all the
Speaker 4: money you want and just spend it. Biden and the
Speaker 4: student loan thing, Print the money and I'll give it
Speaker 4: to you. I'm just where did the money come from?
Speaker 4: Where'd the money come from? Where did the money come from?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm curious.
Speaker 3: What do you think? Market rates atmorrow rate mark are the.
Speaker 2: Best and worst things that Biden is so as president?
Speaker 2: In your view, he wont that.
Speaker 1: Was the best.
Speaker 4: That's sarcastic, that's fun. I think I think infrastructure was important.
Speaker 4: I think he should have done a bigger infrastructure bill.
Speaker 4: I think although it may it may inflate the economy again.
Speaker 4: I think that next year could be very bad for
Speaker 4: the economy with inflation, and and that hurts. That hurts everybody.
Speaker 4: You talk about spending more money, and you have the
Speaker 4: goals for spending, but every time you spend, you're taking
Speaker 4: money and inflating prices. It's just that you can talk
Speaker 4: all you want to getting rid of inflation, it's never
Speaker 4: gone away as long as the money has been spent.
Speaker 2: So what about the worst? What are the worst things?
Speaker 2: Biden to his president You mention, I.
Speaker 4: Think there's an old rule of Churchills that you never
Speaker 4: promised something you can't deliver. Don't say you can give
Speaker 4: people freedom to free them from student loan debt. It's
Speaker 4: their debt. They paid them, they made the decision. They're
Speaker 4: getting their career opportunities out of it. The people in
Speaker 4: the in the United States, the middle class and the
Speaker 4: working class in Pennsylvania, who don't go to college, which
Speaker 4: the majority of people, they're not going to get those benefits.
Speaker 4: And yet you're taking them from them and saying, oh,
Speaker 4: I'm going to just inflate the economy. I'm just going
Speaker 4: to create more money, drive all the prices up to
Speaker 4: pay for student loans. Well, that was very responsible because
Speaker 4: he couldn't do it constitutionally. He had no right to
Speaker 4: do that. The courts are not going to back them
Speaker 4: on this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they've already vacated in people's people's payments
Speaker 2: are going to be resuming very soon. Some commentators we've
Speaker 2: seen out there have been floating that we're on the
Speaker 2: verge of a civil war. You love history.
Speaker 3: No, let me do it.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna go back to you because this argument about
Speaker 4: you've got to spend more money two tradion hours over
Speaker 4: full employment. We've pushed down umployment as as low as
Speaker 4: it's ever been able to do. This is the hardest
Speaker 4: we can ever do. In terms of expansionism and and
Speaker 4: and social programming and everything that Biden's done, He's as
Speaker 4: probably as left as you could go.
Speaker 1: Yes, wildly disagree.
Speaker 4: I mean wildly disagree. Start the premise that we live
Speaker 4: in a country we don't live in.
Speaker 1: No. No, the beginning of the administration, there was significant
Speaker 1: programs and relief, there were checks that were cut, there
Speaker 1: were pandemic era programs. All of that has been stripped
Speaker 1: away over the course of Biden administration. I mean, student
Speaker 1: debt payments are set to be.
Speaker 3: They COVID they were for COVID nineteen.
Speaker 1: Everything that was done during that period was stripped away.
Speaker 1: So to talk, the story of the Biden administration has
Speaker 1: actually been cutting social spending over the course of administration,
Speaker 1: which is why I would argue he's in such a
Speaker 1: difficult place in terms of electorally because people's experience have been.
Speaker 1: You know, I was doing okay, and now you know,
Speaker 1: all of these things that were helping me, including I
Speaker 1: think the child tax cred is a perfect example, those
Speaker 1: things have gone away. I do think inflation is important
Speaker 1: part of that story. I just disagree with the totality
Speaker 1: of the causes of inflation, but I think that that's
Speaker 1: the issue. But you know, you.
Speaker 4: Know I disagree that, but prices go up, it's because
Speaker 4: more money is being spent.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's the whole thing that's going on.
Speaker 1: Is that is economics, but it's not that that's what
Speaker 1: the economics textbook says. But when we look at you
Speaker 1: can you let me finish here. The Federal Reserve did
Speaker 1: research showing that a significant portion, a majority of the
Speaker 1: inflation was just corporate price gouging. Executives were on calls.
Speaker 1: You don't have to take my refort. Executives were on
Speaker 1: calls bragging about how they were able to use the
Speaker 1: excuse of inflation to hike up prices. So there's an
Speaker 1: issue with monopolies of the last thing I really want
Speaker 1: to get from you, and this is genuine.
Speaker 4: In the real world, and I'm telling you, if inflation
Speaker 4: rises next year and it continues that Theate, it's going
Speaker 4: to hurt by Like I believe.
Speaker 1: That the era that you've covered extensively, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like this Reagan Clinton neoliberal consensus. Do you think that
Speaker 1: that consensus failed in any meaningful respect? Do you think
Speaker 1: that consensus is broken? Are we moving towards a new era,
Speaker 1: or do you think that it continues a pace?
Speaker 4: Well, I don't think moderate moderation sells generally. I mean
Speaker 4: mcgovernor beat Muskie. I mean, the fact is that if
Speaker 4: you have a wild idea and you can appeal to
Speaker 4: people who are desperate, they're going to give you a shot.
Speaker 4: And like, you know, the idea that we can continue
Speaker 4: a massive welfare program in addition to what we're spending now,
Speaker 4: I don't know how we.
Speaker 3: Can keep doing it. I just I.
Speaker 4: Mean, there's not going to There's no way you're going
Speaker 4: to raise taxes. I can't think of how you're going
Speaker 4: to raise taxes with the Republican Congress right now, and
Speaker 4: in effect, even the Senate is not going.
Speaker 2: To do it, right yeah, I mean, so where are
Speaker 2: you going to do it?
Speaker 3: What government you're going to have? You're talking about the
Speaker 3: United States government.
Speaker 1: But do you think that there were core failures to
Speaker 1: get back to this question of like where does the
Speaker 1: populous energy around Trump and around Bernie? Where does this
Speaker 1: come from? And is it rooted in some key failures
Speaker 1: of that bipartisan consensus, the overlap between basically Bill Clinton
Speaker 1: and Donald Reagan. You know, you have this census, You
Speaker 1: have this consensus in favor of deregulation, You have the
Speaker 1: Iraq War, you have free trade, you have all of
Speaker 1: these things that build up to the financial crash. I mean,
Speaker 1: aren't these key failures of neoliberalism that now you have
Speaker 1: these movements in reaction to movements that you you know
Speaker 1: very much don't support.
Speaker 2: Don't support what you don't support, the populace movements like Trump,
Speaker 2: like Trump or Bernie?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, were there were there failures in that.
Speaker 3: Trump or Bernie? Were there?
Speaker 1: There's a different they're wildly different, but talking about animating energy,
Speaker 1: here were their key failures in that neoliberal consensus that
Speaker 1: has dominated here for some forty years.
Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 4: This is wearing me out. I'm just this argument is
Speaker 4: just I'm arguing with someone who has.
Speaker 3: No interest states.
Speaker 4: How me the States are for your point of view,
Speaker 4: because you're you're advocating here. You're pretending to interview me,
Speaker 4: but you're really advocating for a social welfare state.
Speaker 3: And I'm going to ask you where is it winning.
Speaker 1: Well, look at Florida, they passed a fifteen dollars.
Speaker 3: No, you're jumping around your point.
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to argue with you about Bernie anymore.
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you what you really think about
Speaker 1: the era that you covered, and whether it's coming to
Speaker 1: a close or whether you think that you know the leader.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's coming to a close? Do you
Speaker 1: think it served people well? Do you think there were
Speaker 1: any failures to it, anything that should have been done
Speaker 1: differently during that era?
Speaker 3: Can I speak?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Go ahead.
Speaker 4: I think the Democratic Party, the modern Democratic Party, has
Speaker 4: been very good at opposing the Vietnam War, and most
Speaker 4: of it, not at the top, is very good at
Speaker 4: opposing the Iraq War. And these are real conditions where
Speaker 4: people get killed, and we killed two hundred thousand people
Speaker 4: in Iraq and the Vietnam fifty eight million people. Fifty
Speaker 4: eight thousand people died from our country and millions and Vietnamese,
Speaker 4: and we made those decisions on civil rights, starting with
Speaker 4: the Brown case in fifty four and the Civil Rights
Speaker 4: Bill and sixty for voting rights in sixty five, and
Speaker 4: all those issues social issues, the Democratic Party with Republican
Speaker 4: support in many cases Midwestern Republicans were very big on
Speaker 4: civil rights. Certainly that's when we had a Northeastern Republican
Speaker 4: party establishment party. And I think in all those issues
Speaker 4: the Democrats did the right thing.
Speaker 3: And even after Roe v.
Speaker 4: Waite was a brilliant decision because I think even though
Speaker 4: it was political and it wasn't really a court decision,
Speaker 4: it was a practical decision. The old joke was that
Speaker 4: the Supreme Court follows the elections, and they did what
Speaker 4: makes sense, and viability made sense, and so we moved.
Speaker 4: We've made a lot of decisions in terms of unemployment.
Speaker 4: The Democratic Party has under Clinton bounced the budgets, which
Speaker 4: I thought was important. Under Harry Truman bounced the budgets.
Speaker 4: I think they've tried to do fiscally responsible stuff. They
Speaker 4: have maintained at ignormous of costs Medicare and Medicare and
Speaker 4: Social Security, which are incredibly difficult expensive. They have done
Speaker 4: all those programs for retirees. I think they've been probably
Speaker 4: in terms of homelessness, and reality is on the street,
Speaker 4: not this the world you talk about, that world I
Speaker 4: don't know anything about, but in the reality of the
Speaker 4: streets where you walk in San Francisco and you see
Speaker 4: the liberalism, it is liberalism.
Speaker 3: It's not left wing liberal.
Speaker 4: Attitudes towards people living in the streets, the graffiti actually
Speaker 4: the dration of a lot of downtown San Francisco. I
Speaker 4: think they've been probably too liberal, and I think if
Speaker 4: you go any further in that direction, it's almost zany.
Speaker 3: Now just a minute.
Speaker 4: I'm getting to talk here because I live in the
Speaker 4: real world where people like Gavin Newsom can get elected
Speaker 4: and Jerry Brown can get elected four times, and people
Speaker 4: that are modern Democrats, or you call them a neoliberals,
Speaker 4: they are neoliberals because they're trying to do something. They're
Speaker 4: not socialists. They don't believe in the government taking over things.
Speaker 4: They know that at some point the government gets too
Speaker 4: big and it's the problem, and they do it.
Speaker 3: They don't believe in all these solutions advocating.
Speaker 4: Thank god there is no Bernie Sanders running the country.
Speaker 4: Think I know just because I want you've made your point.
Speaker 4: I heard all the points. I heard them all my life,
Speaker 4: and all those arguments.
Speaker 3: Absolute defeat that.
Speaker 4: You know places the real world, the real world I
Speaker 4: know about. I have a couple of brothers who voted
Speaker 4: for Trump this time, probably will again. I've got people
Speaker 4: and relatives I will not even argue with because they
Speaker 4: disagree with me. There's a lot more people on the
Speaker 4: other side than from your side. I think that Trump
Speaker 4: probably in the latest polling in Pennsylvania's one point ahead,
Speaker 4: in Michigan's even Virginia's running even.
Speaker 3: I think he's.
Speaker 4: Probably going to pick up a couple of points in
Speaker 4: the next few weeks. Yeah, because because every time the
Speaker 4: courts go after Trump, every time the prosecutors go after Trump,
Speaker 4: every time they go after Trump, and they are all
Speaker 4: right in these cases, I believe completely right. His microphone
Speaker 4: gets bigger, is louder, because if you attack somebody, they.
Speaker 3: Have a right to respond. That's the key thing.
Speaker 4: But America is if you're under attack for whatever reason,
Speaker 4: you get to talk and you get a lot of opportunity.
Speaker 4: So he's going to have I don't think I'll go
Speaker 4: to this debate this week. I think he's probably gonna
Speaker 4: wait outside. I may have been get arrested during that time.
Speaker 4: He may do anything, but he's not gonna let their
Speaker 4: Chris Christy grab the front page of the New York
Speaker 4: Times away from him, because all will be is Christie
Speaker 4: attack him.
Speaker 3: And he's the liberal pin up boy.
Speaker 4: Right now, You'll hear about a whole lot on the
Speaker 4: MSNBC and CNN. You'll hear a lot of them because
Speaker 4: he's a liberal pin up boy. He's their guy, and
Speaker 4: they know he doesn't have a chance in the world
Speaker 4: of beating Trump, just like Bernie Sanders does in the world.
Speaker 3: She beat anybody, anybody that's not what the pole. No,
Speaker 3: give me one. Just give me one now in real time.
Speaker 3: I'm looking at it. You're not looking them up. Gill
Speaker 3: me the poll. Now give me one poll. I'm just
Speaker 3: challenging you in your basic guy. You have you have
Speaker 3: the platform.
Speaker 1: Clinton, you have the platform Keller Clinton was the electable one.
Speaker 3: How did that go?
Speaker 1: How does he do a beating Trump?
Speaker 3: What is that? This is the this is called what about?
Speaker 3: Is this?
Speaker 1: You're making a case about who would have won? I
Speaker 1: can tell you who didn't win. Hillary Clinton didn't win. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and that was the person who at that time your networks.
Speaker 3: This I was pushing.
Speaker 4: I was pushing Clinton is a candidate. I like Shared Brown,
Speaker 4: I like people like that. I like some people left
Speaker 4: because they because they have an ability to talk to
Speaker 4: people the way they live and not this this, this.
Speaker 1: Performance, Jerney have some labor supporting.
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 4: Look, you have a point of view, and you've run
Speaker 4: to this table and I'm trying to defend against it.
Speaker 4: I'm just saying, monery course can win. The montery course
Speaker 4: can win. And Biden, uh has made a lot of
Speaker 4: compromises with ron Klain. He's certainly moved over to the left,
Speaker 4: There's no doubt about it. He got rid of the
Speaker 4: High AMENDMENTY tried to you're not going to get rid
Speaker 4: of it. But these kinds of decisions, Uh, you know,
Speaker 4: he was for bussing. Most people were against busting rather
Speaker 4: and and he's had to pay for all these of
Speaker 4: the past. I personally think it's it's it's a strange argument.
Speaker 4: But I don't think you could win as a ward
Speaker 4: leader anywhere. I think I think I think you've made that.
Speaker 1: Clary, No, not just where where would you where would you?
Speaker 3: Where would you want to be? The board? Where the
Speaker 3: political boss. Where can you be a good blog boss?
Speaker 3: Your point of view with.
Speaker 1: My point of view? Where would you go with that
Speaker 1: support populous economics?
Speaker 3: Where? No, where, no, no, tell.
Speaker 1: Me where you would want I'm not looking to be
Speaker 1: a ward leader anywhere, Chrisma.
Speaker 3: Where are you going to win? Where are you going
Speaker 3: to win with this argument?
Speaker 1: Well, obviously it hasn't won in a Democratic primary, especially
Speaker 1: given the fact that you know, I think Democratic voters
Speaker 1: are very concerned about electability, and I get that from
Speaker 1: her perspective. But my view is the media really shaped
Speaker 1: and informed those Democratic primary voters of who was actually
Speaker 1: electable and who wasn't, and that the evidence that was.
Speaker 4: Let me just say, if I had if I had
Speaker 4: fielded this kind of power in my role for twenty
Speaker 4: six years, I would have felt it.
Speaker 3: I never felt it.
Speaker 4: I felt I was up against the left and I
Speaker 4: had to argue with them. I felt I had to
Speaker 4: take I had to challenge people like Hillary included. I
Speaker 4: think the uh, the idea that that Hillary was too
Speaker 4: conservative for the country is ridiculous.
Speaker 3: There was a lot going on with the idea that
Speaker 3: he talked about ability.
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, no, that context Hillary's very likeablee person.
Speaker 1: Okay, but how did the American people feel about it?
Speaker 3: How they feel about how they react to her?
Speaker 4: Yeah, they obviously they went more vote for her than
Speaker 4: for him, but he won the electoral college, right, Yes,
Speaker 4: And how could that happen in a world where Bernie
Speaker 4: rises supreme?
Speaker 2: We don't have to litigate Bie.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, you say Bernie to a similar populist
Speaker 1: anger and backlash against the forty year neoliberal consensus that
Speaker 1: brought US wars and bad trade deals and hollow down
Speaker 1: a good portion of the country.
Speaker 3: So I think I think there are absolutely different.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, listen, it's a counterfactual. We'll never know.
Speaker 4: Asked Bertie Bernie's farm policy, ask about the world he
Speaker 4: sees it thankfully different.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us. We really appreciate your time.
Speaker 1: We weren't trying to really.
Speaker 3: I think I think we've learned more about your point
Speaker 3: of view than mine.
Speaker 1: Oh, people know my point of view, but it's just.
Speaker 3: It's just doesn't it doesn't sink with anything.
Speaker 4: I've been involved in politics, and I can tell you
Speaker 4: that the Bernie argument, he's a likable guy. I don't
Speaker 4: see the country outside of Nevada and those primary voters
Speaker 4: voting for him.
Speaker 1: Nevada is a working class.
Speaker 2: I think you've made your position very clear and we
Speaker 2: appreciate your time.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, you have.
Speaker 4: We talked about in the world today about democracy and
Speaker 4: the situation we face today, and I think that's been
Speaker 4: a problem because that's the biggest thing I want to
Speaker 4: talk about.
Speaker 3: I thought lead item.
Speaker 4: I think that in terms of world politics, the way
Speaker 4: we live, the way we elect people, who gets its votes.
Speaker 3: I think that.
Speaker 4: It's a fact that, starting with the age of television,
Speaker 4: which we talked about, yeah, that people who lost presidential
Speaker 4: elections said, so on television, what do you mean they
Speaker 4: conceded defeat.
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 4: Yes, they considered to be within with the real time,
Speaker 4: even Jack Kennedy and Nixon, because Nixon said, as the
Speaker 4: conditions go now it looks like the continues of this course,
Speaker 4: Kennedy will be the next president, and then the vision
Speaker 4: to statement. The next morning, Kennedy made a point of
Speaker 4: meeting with Nixon down.
Speaker 3: In Florida so that it would be very clear he lost.
Speaker 4: And Al Gore had to do this and Hillary Clinton
Speaker 4: had to do this, and they all did it. Even
Speaker 4: though Hillary Clinton was very unhappy. She was shocked by
Speaker 4: her defeat, and I was in the hotel with her
Speaker 4: that morning, and they all did it. They stood up,
Speaker 4: They had guts, and not to be is patriotic support
Speaker 4: of our country.
Speaker 3: It's not left wing or right wing.
Speaker 4: It's believe in how who you run our elections, and
Speaker 4: we do base them on who wins the electric College
Speaker 4: and how it worked, and.
Speaker 3: That's how we do it.
Speaker 4: And all this other stuff about theories and what else
Speaker 4: could be done and how it could be a different world.
Speaker 4: It's not reality. It's not the world where we live in.
Speaker 4: It's not our constitutional basis for our country. We live
Speaker 4: with a constitution with the most people voting the way
Speaker 4: they vote. They may be middle class, they may have
Speaker 4: They may like corporate memes.
Speaker 3: They may even like M and ms.
Speaker 4: They may like weedies, they may they don't hate corporations.
Speaker 4: Can be when I get up in the morn and
Speaker 4: say I hate corporations.
Speaker 3: They don't they about They don't get it. They don't
Speaker 3: get up and worry about it.
Speaker 4: That's not what they think about. They're not on the left.
Speaker 3: They're not on the left. They're just not there. But
Speaker 3: they were not on the left.
Speaker 1: They worry about being able to pay the bills, not
Speaker 1: just left right, and so people are pissed off that
Speaker 1: stuff costs too much.
Speaker 4: The word right, you know, of course I've said that
Speaker 4: from the beginning.
Speaker 2: Again, it's all the question.
Speaker 4: Of trying to make things into a big ideological snowball.
Speaker 4: It's not going to be Bernie's never going to be
Speaker 4: elected to anything like president.
Speaker 3: It's not going to.
Speaker 2: He's doing anything at all.
Speaker 3: It's not me.
Speaker 4: It's this thinking. That's the government thinking of it. All
Speaker 4: you have to do is hard left and everything is
Speaker 4: going to be fine. Democratic Party went hard left.
Speaker 3: He went nowhere. And there's one way.
Speaker 1: I think it's about delivering socialism.
Speaker 3: I don't want to live in a country so.
Speaker 1: Bad that it goes social I think it's about it's
Speaker 1: delivering You go back to the same problem.
Speaker 4: It's holistic. Look at what driving up prices does the people.
Speaker 4: When you do what you want to do and you
Speaker 4: keep spending money at the government level. Federal government spending
Speaker 4: is what you're talking about.
Speaker 3: That's really what.
Speaker 1: You're talking about, a delivering for people.
Speaker 4: No, No, that's another way of saying government spending.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to mean that because it does everything.
Speaker 3: You said was all these all these programs you talked.
Speaker 1: About, Think about just healthcare, all the.
Speaker 3: COVID programs for spending programs.
Speaker 1: Spend on healthcare as a country more than any other
Speaker 1: country in the whole world. Is just a question of
Speaker 1: who is spending that money? Do you think we're doing
Speaker 1: a good job with health giving? The nihilism is very
Speaker 1: depressing of like, this is just how it is and
Speaker 1: we have to accept it. So I personally, I personally
Speaker 1: believe that politics is downstream of how people are doing
Speaker 1: in terms of their economics. Now you and I are
Speaker 1: just going to agree to disagree about how this all
Speaker 1: works out and exactly the inflation.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 4: I think this argument is fine democratic primary, and we'll
Speaker 4: see who wins.
Speaker 1: That's all you We've already we've already seen it. Like
Speaker 1: I said, your side one, Chris, I appreciate it's.
Speaker 3: Not my side.
Speaker 4: My side is probably to the right of Biden. Okay,
Speaker 4: probably to the right. It's more moderate. I think that
Speaker 4: people like must keep people like that over the years, and.
Speaker 1: Said, you like Sharon Brown, who I would say is
Speaker 1: to the left. But I want to thank you.
Speaker 4: Because shared Brown and Tim and Tim Ryan know how
Speaker 4: to talk to people. Yeah on their face, and they
Speaker 4: don't go off as any professors or anything like that.
Speaker 3: They're not arguing theory.
Speaker 1: Focused on populist pocketbook economics, and that's something I score pocketbook.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I appreciate the time.
Speaker 3: I appreciate.
Speaker 4: Keep your eye on elections because they decide things and
Speaker 4: they were in a proper constitutional world, they are the
Speaker 4: victors the people.
Speaker 3: The majority wins.
Speaker 2: We agree wh