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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's going? Well, it's hectic. Oh yes, this is holiday season?

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Speaker 1: Is hectic? Are you not hectic too?

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Speaker 3: You know, I get I get a little hectic.

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Speaker 2: It's more of the scramble at the last minute Christmas gifts,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 3: But for the most part, no, you know, I just

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Speaker 3: kind of keep doing what I do.

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Speaker 1: So in my head, I'm picturing you venturing out with

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Speaker 1: a large axe into the woods, just you and Cora

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Speaker 1: and chopping down your own tree. Is like a lumberjack?

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Speaker 1: Is that true, or do you just go to like

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Speaker 1: Rambles and pick up a tree.

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Speaker 2: No, you know, I have a It's a reasonably nice

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Speaker 2: artificial tree that is pre lit. That is what is

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Speaker 2: so important. I hate putting lights on and off trees.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you're such a buzzkill high favorite cart.

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Speaker 3: Oh it's miserable.

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Speaker 2: My job is to put the tree up, and the

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Speaker 2: rest of the family puts the ornaments on, okay, and

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Speaker 2: then they have to prod me into putting lights on

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Speaker 2: the house, and so I'll do that.

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Speaker 1: Well, I have a holiday gift for you that I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you know. We are off for the

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Speaker 1: next two weeks for the holidays, for a kind of

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Speaker 1: deserved I guess this is so much fun. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure I need a break. I was like, what, I

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Speaker 1: don't need to make him show us.

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Speaker 3: That's a gift.

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Speaker 1: So with the holiday season here, I would be remiss

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Speaker 1: if I didn't remind all of our listeners. Paul and

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Speaker 1: I both have books out. Mine is All That Is Wicked,

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Speaker 1: which is all about the criminal mind and how we

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Speaker 1: ended up where we are today, and Paul's is called Unmasked,

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Speaker 1: and his is a memoir, of course about his unbelievable

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Speaker 1: career as a forensic investigator. So if you want the

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Speaker 1: hardback copy, they're out. If you can't live without our

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Speaker 1: voices and want to spend the holidays listening to us

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Speaker 1: even more than we both read our own audio books,

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Speaker 1: and we thank you for this sport. So this will

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Speaker 1: be our last show for just a few weeks, and

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Speaker 1: then we will be back with Vengeance or just back

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Speaker 1: one way or the other in a couple of weeks.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to leave this on our two week

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Speaker 1: break with a doozy of a case. And I know

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Speaker 1: it's a case you've heard about before, the Lindbergh baby kidnapping.

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Speaker 1: But I think a lot of people just know that

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Speaker 1: this happened, they don't know the ins and outs of it,

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Speaker 1: and they don't know the controversy around what ends up

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Speaker 1: happening at the end. So I'm super excited to fill

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Speaker 1: you in on this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, that's that pretty much describes me.

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Speaker 2: I'm aware of the case, vague recollection of some of

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Speaker 2: the details, but do not recall it at all.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's go ahead and get started in let's set

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Speaker 1: the scene. So let me tell you the time period

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Speaker 1: we're talking about nineteen thirty two New Jersey, so still

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the depression. The two main characters

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Speaker 1: are Charles and Ann Lindbergh, and they're from a very

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Speaker 1: wealthy family. He is a handsome, world renowned aviator. By

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Speaker 1: the age of twenty five, he had become famous for

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Speaker 1: making the first NonStop flight from New York to Paris

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Speaker 1: on May twentieth, nineteen twenty seven. And I know most

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Speaker 1: people have seen those photos or heard about it. It's

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Speaker 1: a pretty incredible feat. So he was just this icon

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Speaker 1: for people. And he lived on a beautiful estate with

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Speaker 1: his beautiful wife and had this wonderful life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's what I vaguely remember about lind Bergh

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Speaker 2: was the aviation side of him, almost like a superstar,

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Speaker 2: you know, back in the day, accomplishing something that no

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Speaker 2: other human had ever accomplished before.

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Speaker 1: And the rugged good looks. I can't emphasize that enough.

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Speaker 1: That this was somebody who was very high profile. So

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Speaker 1: all of this is unexpected and very very tragic. So

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Speaker 1: in the evening of March first, nineteen thirty two, we

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Speaker 1: have Charles Lindberg's little boy, who was twenty months old

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Speaker 1: at the time, and his name was Charles Augustus Lindbergh Junior,

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Speaker 1: and he had a cold. And I'm sure you remember

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Speaker 1: your children at that age having a cold. I can't

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Speaker 1: think of anything more miserable for them and for me

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Speaker 1: as a parent, to have a twenty month old having

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Speaker 1: a cold and sneezing and crying and all that. And

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Speaker 1: he was very under the weather.

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Speaker 2: Right and keeping you up all night. You know, they're

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Speaker 2: just miserable. They don't know how to take care of themselves.

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Speaker 2: It's so hard to try to make them more comfortable.

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Speaker 2: So I could only imagine what it was like in

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Speaker 2: that house.

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Speaker 1: He's lucky enough to have a nurse. Her name was

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Speaker 1: Betty Gal, and she's trying in the nursery to make

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Speaker 1: him feel better. So she rubs a medicine on his

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Speaker 1: chest to try to clear up the congestion. While Charles

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Speaker 1: and Ann, his parents are downstairs relaxing. It's a quiet evening,

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Speaker 1: it's cold outside, and now finally Charles Junior has fallen asleep,

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Speaker 1: so everything is at peace. Just to set the scene,

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Speaker 1: because this is going to be important, and I'm going

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Speaker 1: to have to show you some photos in a little bit.

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Speaker 1: They are on a four hundred acre estate in New

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Speaker 1: Jersey in the sour Land Mountains of New Jersey and

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Speaker 1: the home is only accessible by a dirt road. This

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Speaker 1: is a very private, exclusive estate, So breaching this estate

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Speaker 1: you really have to feel pretty confident about who you're

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Speaker 1: targeting and what your plan is.

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Speaker 2: Don't you think anytime I go to a crime scene,

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Speaker 2: part of assessing that scene is the location, and it's

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Speaker 2: the ingress and egress of the offender. You know, how

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Speaker 2: did the offender, like in this case, how's the offender

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Speaker 2: even aware of the location? But also how would the

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Speaker 2: offender get into the scene to minimize risk of being

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Speaker 2: seen as well as leave the scene again without exposing

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Speaker 2: him or themselves.

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Speaker 3: To higher risk.

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Speaker 2: And that's part of why it's so critical to actually

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Speaker 2: visit the physical locations. You know, as a cold case investigator,

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Speaker 2: any case that I really start digging into, I make

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Speaker 2: it a priority, even if it's forty years later.

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Speaker 3: Go out to the crime scene because it's so informative.

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Speaker 1: And when we talk about accessibility, you're going to be

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Speaker 1: very thankful that this is nineteen thirty two where there

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Speaker 1: were photographers on the police force or independent photographers with

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Speaker 1: the media who took a lot of photos so that

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Speaker 1: you're able to assess more. I try to do a

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Speaker 1: nice mix of time periods where photographs are available to us,

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Speaker 1: mixed with, of course the eighteen hundreds and the seventeen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: which are a little bit more challenging. But I know

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Speaker 1: how much you appreciate photos, so I'm offering you photos

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Speaker 1: for this case. Yay, yay photos. Okay, So back to

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Speaker 1: the story. We're on a rural estate and very very private,

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Speaker 1: and the people in the house at the time are

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Speaker 1: Charleson and the parents and then Betty Gal who is

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Speaker 1: the nurse. So around ten o'clock, Betty is assuming that Charles,

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Speaker 1: the little boy, is asleep. She goes to check on him,

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Speaker 1: and she finds that he's gone. He's vanished from the nursery.

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Speaker 1: She looks everywhere, looks in the crib, looks underneath closet

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Speaker 1: things where there's just no way he had been able

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Speaker 1: to sneak to. But she was out of her mind

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out what happened. She screams down to

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Speaker 1: Charles and Anne, who who are clueless. They're stunned, they

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Speaker 1: have no idea what happened. They've been downstairs the entire time,

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Speaker 1: and they don't understand how the baby had just disappeared.

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Speaker 1: Charles said, I went upstairs to the child's nursery, opened

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Speaker 1: the door, and immediately noticed a lifted up window, and

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Speaker 1: there's a strange looking envelope laying on the sill.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so they were awake this entire time.

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Speaker 1: They were downstairs just probably having a glass of wine,

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Speaker 1: just spending time together. This is a huge house, and

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna show you a photo in a minute. It's

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Speaker 1: a big house. Okay, So the nursery and the downstairs

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Speaker 1: seem like you have to traverse a couple of flights

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Speaker 1: of stairs to get to them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's no baby monitors back during this time frame.

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Speaker 1: Nope, No, so it's a problem. He was noticing an

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Speaker 1: envelope laying on the window sill. He did not stop

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Speaker 1: to look at this envelope just yet, because he's trying

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Speaker 1: to stop whomever took his baby from leaving the property.

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Speaker 1: Because remember this is a huge amount, four hundred acres,

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Speaker 1: and the house is very far set back, so he's thinking,

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Speaker 1: I still have a chance to stop this person. He said.

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Speaker 1: I looked at the crib. It was empty. I ran downstairs,

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Speaker 1: I grabbed my rifle, and I went out into the night.

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Speaker 1: If I were a cynical person and I were a

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Speaker 1: police officer hearing this that this rich, wealthy man says,

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Speaker 1: somebody scaled the house to get to the top floor

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Speaker 1: and broke into the house and took a baby for

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Speaker 1: who knows what reason, I would suspect the parents, wouldn't

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Speaker 1: you suspect the parents straight away?

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Speaker 2: As ruthless as it may seem, very early on, when

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Speaker 2: you do have missing kids, you know that are the

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Speaker 2: result of foul play. You always have to consider the parents.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: You take a look at the statistics. Who's the number

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Speaker 2: one killer of kids, It's the parents.

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Speaker 3: Yep. So very early on, you know, here you have

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Speaker 3: this odd scenario. I mean, this junior, this little toddler

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Speaker 3: is taken out of the house, out of this window

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Speaker 3: off the second floor. Yep.

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Speaker 2: You know that's shocking to me. And the parents are awake.

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Speaker 2: So you go, okay, this something's not adding up here.

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Speaker 2: If I were an initial responder or an early investigator

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Speaker 2: on this case, now you separate the parents, you separate

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Speaker 2: out the nurse, You get statements from all of them,

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Speaker 2: and you start looking for inconsistencies, and then there is

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Speaker 2: an exhaustive search of that house and of the property

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Speaker 2: for the boy.

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Speaker 1: So before we get to the letter, which is a

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Speaker 1: very interesting clue, let's talk about the forensics that they've

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Speaker 1: gathered from the nursery. No fingerprints that they can find,

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Speaker 1: so obviously whoever did this was probably wearing gloves, or

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Speaker 1: they find only fingerprints of the parents, and so the

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Speaker 1: parents have done it. Of course, their fingerprints of the

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Speaker 1: parents mundy footprints all throughout the nursery, which we could

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Speaker 1: potentially use later. Is that right? We've talked about footprints.

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Speaker 1: What would be helpful to a twenty twenty three twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two detective when you find footprints, because it's a

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Speaker 1: little squishy as far as forensics go. Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, the shoe prints. I'm assuming these aren't

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Speaker 2: bare feet, but these are actual shoeprints. We've got sole

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Speaker 2: patterns that are present. At least the shoe prints provide

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Speaker 2: movement patterns depending on how many have been left behind.

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Speaker 2: But somebody with mud on the bottom of their soles

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Speaker 2: was stepping in that location, so it helps reconstruct movement,

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Speaker 2: which also can help guide let's say a CSI asked

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Speaker 2: where to focus the energies to get evidence to identify

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Speaker 2: who this person is. Of course you get some rough

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Speaker 2: ideas about the size of the shoe, and if there

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Speaker 2: are tread patterns on the bottom of the shoe, you

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Speaker 2: get some information related to possibly the make and model

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Speaker 2: of the shoe, so they have significance. I would imagine

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Speaker 2: in mud in this nursery, the quality of these shoeprints

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Speaker 2: are likely very poor, not like comparison quality. If you

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Speaker 2: get the suspect shoes, yeah, he's moving fast.

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Speaker 1: He snatches the kid and then out the window. One

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Speaker 1: of the things that I remember with this case that

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Speaker 1: echoes in my head is I have a friend who's

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Speaker 1: a forensic pathologist, and he always says that his job

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Speaker 1: much of the time is to exclude, not include if possible.

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Speaker 1: He can oftentimes say this didn't happen, but many times

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Speaker 1: he can't say, well, this definitely happened. So I was thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: we could tell the shoe size. But also if I

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Speaker 1: were a skeptical Paul Holes, I would say, what's to

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Speaker 1: stop the guy from wearing a shoe size at three

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Speaker 1: times bigger than his so that he could be potentially

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Speaker 1: excluded if he were a suspect later down the road

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Speaker 1: based on his shoe size, What do you think about that?

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Speaker 2: That is a primary tenant of forensic science, is that

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Speaker 2: you're always trying to eliminate, exclude. It's only when you

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Speaker 2: fail to do that then you say, the characteristics of

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Speaker 2: this evidence are included within whatever parameters are important to

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Speaker 2: the discipline. So your friend is absolutely correct. When it

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Speaker 2: comes to these shoeprints, you pay attention to all the

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Speaker 2: information you can get from them, but you also have

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Speaker 2: to be aware of the variables. You know, does the

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Speaker 2: size truly indicate the true size that the offender is wearing,

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Speaker 2: or did the offender choose to wear something that would

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Speaker 2: throw off the investigators.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about the ladder, because I get to

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Speaker 1: show you a photo and that's one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: things to do. So the ladder is they've determined is homemade.

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Speaker 1: It does not belong to the Lindberghs. According to Charles,

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Speaker 1: of course, if he's the killer, and or if he's

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Speaker 1: the person who set this whole thing up, then of

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Speaker 1: course he's going to lie and say this doesn't belong

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Speaker 1: to us. But it looks like a homemade ladder, and

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Speaker 1: presumably this is what the kidnapper used to enter the

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Speaker 1: nursery and snatch young Charles. So let me show you

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Speaker 1: a photo of it, and it's leaning up against the

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Speaker 1: house for context, and you can see, you know, just

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Speaker 1: how far this person had to climb it. Wow, this

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Speaker 1: is a tall ladder. Homemade ladder, I mean.

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Speaker 3: Very narrow, very narrow, very unstated.

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Speaker 1: This looks like the perfect height to get into the window.

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Speaker 1: I wonder is this homemade because he couldn't find a

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Speaker 1: ladder that would give him the height to access this

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Speaker 1: top window, or do you think he was trying to

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Speaker 1: cover his tracks by not buying something commercially, Or is

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Speaker 1: the ladder this size even available?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, back in the day that I would have no

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Speaker 2: idea what could be purchased. That the ladder does appear

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00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,120
Speaker 2: to be homemade, but you know, reasonably well constructed. I'm

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Speaker 2: looking at the two men standing at the base of

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Speaker 2: this ladder and assuming let's say they're roughly six feet tall, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, just eyeballing it, this ladder looks like it's

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Speaker 2: almost eighteen feet tall. There's so much to digest here

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Speaker 2: in terms of the offender's planning, part of what the

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Speaker 2: offender is. He's got to have knowledge about number one,

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Speaker 2: where the baby is asleep in the house, So either

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Speaker 2: he's been at this location or somehow has been told

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Speaker 2: where this location is. Also has knowledge about the height

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Speaker 2: of this window and that this window is something that

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Speaker 2: he would be able to get into. But think about this,

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Speaker 2: the offender has to get to this isolated house across

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Speaker 2: this property with this ladder in tow.

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Speaker 3: Is he driving a vehicle up to the house.

285
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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think this is a ladder

286
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,760
Speaker 1: that has rungs or any sort of hinges that he

287
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,040
Speaker 1: could maybe, but it doesn't look to me like this

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00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,239
Speaker 1: is a ladder that he can bend and unbend.

289
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't look like it's a folding ladder. But

290
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Speaker 2: also what strikes me is how narrow it is. You know,

291
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Speaker 2: I'm a kind of a scared of heights type of guy,

292
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Speaker 2: you know, and I've gotten pretty high up on ladders,

293
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,240
Speaker 2: you know, and even with very stable ladders, I get

294
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Speaker 2: uncomfortable me too. This ladder, Imagine how much it would

295
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,080
Speaker 2: shake side to side because it's so narrow at its base,

296
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Speaker 2: He's able to climb up this ladder get into this

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Speaker 2: window and then get out of this window while holding

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Speaker 2: a twenty month old kid. And you know, is this

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Speaker 2: kid squirming that he incapacitate the kid right away?

300
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Speaker 3: Yep.

301
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,040
Speaker 2: But now he's holding this mass what twenty five pounds,

302
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,960
Speaker 2: thirty pounds, I'm not sure, you know, But now he

303
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,960
Speaker 2: has to hold this get back on this very unsteady

304
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,280
Speaker 2: ladder and gets down while not alerting the occupants inside.

305
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,880
Speaker 2: This tells me this offender has some physical capabilities that

306
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,560
Speaker 2: probably are you know, above maybe the average person.

307
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,320
Speaker 1: How would you incapacitate a child who's probably been crying

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Speaker 1: all night long. Maybe the nurse gave him something. She

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Speaker 1: just said she rubbed something on his chest, but you

310
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Speaker 1: know they would have given whiskey. There's a host of things, cocaine,

311
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Speaker 1: But boy, you're taking a big chance. With his parents

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Speaker 1: at home on the first floor, you're coming up. Maybe

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Speaker 1: he planned is this a full moon? And if you

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Speaker 1: look at the tree's Paul, what I noticed is this

315
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Speaker 1: seems like a house that's stuck in the middle of

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Speaker 1: an empty space. There aren't trees right next to the house,

317
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Speaker 1: so he's exposed walking up. I mean, surely he didn't

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Speaker 1: do with this on a full moon night. He's exposed here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's such a bizarre set of circumstances, you know,

320
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Speaker 2: And in one hand, I have some suspicions about you know,

321
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,920
Speaker 2: is there an insider component to this abduction.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty ballsy for him to do this, And unfortunately,

323
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Speaker 1: I think I asked you to two or three questions

324
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Speaker 1: at the same time. As far as incapacitating the little

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Speaker 1: boy before getting him on a ladder and carrying him

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Speaker 1: down when he's been sick, I wonder what if he

327
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Speaker 1: would have killed him? But if you're doing this for ransom,

328
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Speaker 1: he wouldn't have. So I just wonder what would have

329
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Speaker 1: happened to stop this kid from screaming as he's being

330
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Speaker 1: carried down by a stranger in the cold, when he

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Speaker 1: already hasn't felt well.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's where assessing what's going on inside that nursery,

333
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,199
Speaker 2: you know, the movement patterns of the offender. Is it

334
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,600
Speaker 2: looking like the offender is spending time over by where

335
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,240
Speaker 2: the boy was asleep? I mean, as possible, the offender

336
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Speaker 2: just strangled this boy, killed him right away, and now

337
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,439
Speaker 2: takes the body with him and leaves the letter. Parents

338
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,280
Speaker 2: don't know the boy's been killed, and so if this

339
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,960
Speaker 2: is a ransom situation, they're not planning on ever giving

340
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:09,919
Speaker 2: the boy back alive.

341
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,399
Speaker 3: They're just looking to get the money.

342
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Speaker 1: I agree. Here's the detail I didn't tell you. The

343
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Speaker 1: ladder was broken. So it seems pretty clear that when

344
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,440
Speaker 1: he took Charles Junior and he started to go down

345
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,199
Speaker 1: the ladder, his janky homemade ladder did not hold him

346
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,600
Speaker 1: up or he was moving so fast he broke it.

347
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Speaker 1: So the way it looked to the detectives was that

348
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,280
Speaker 1: he if it's a he fell with the baby, oh

349
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,320
Speaker 1: down probably you know one story. I don't know how far.

350
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,800
Speaker 1: It looked like the whole thing was sort of split into.

351
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:40,919
Speaker 3: Well, is this you know the photo that you're showing me.

352
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 3: Is this the actual ladder?

353
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,280
Speaker 2: Is this a replica where they are now reconstructing how

354
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,280
Speaker 2: they think this offender got into the house.

355
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 1: He said it was damage, and I think that they

356
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,320
Speaker 1: just put it back up so you could show the height.

357
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 1: They don't have anybody standing on it.

358
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Speaker 2: So yeah, so because like right now, I can't tell

359
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,159
Speaker 2: that this ladder is damaged, So it appears that that

360
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,480
Speaker 2: would be consistent with what they would have attempted to

361
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,639
Speaker 2: do it's just okay, we've got this broken ladder. Let's,

362
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,639
Speaker 2: you know, show what this ladder when it was whole,

363
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 2: how it was constructed, how it would have been used

364
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,240
Speaker 2: in order to carry out the subduction.

365
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 1: So now we have Charles and the investigators are looking

366
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 1: at the envelope that was left behind on the nursery's windowsill.

367
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,360
Speaker 1: It's the best evidence they have at this point. So

368
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,720
Speaker 1: this is what the letter says. Dear sir, exclamation point,

369
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,600
Speaker 1: have fifty thousand dollars ready reed y twenty five thousand

370
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 1: dollars in twenty dollars bills, fifteen thousand dollars and ten

371
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,840
Speaker 1: dollar bills and ten thousand dollars and five dollar bills.

372
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,680
Speaker 1: After two to four days, we will inform you where

373
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,560
Speaker 1: which is wre to deliver the money with no E

374
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,159
Speaker 1: A lot of misspellings. We warn you for making a

375
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 1: needing public for notifying the police the child is in

376
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 1: good care, which we think is good care indication for

377
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 1: all letters are signature and three whole. I'm not quite

378
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 1: sure what that means, but let me show you that

379
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,119
Speaker 1: photo real quick of the letter. This is the letter.

380
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 1: You can barely read it, and I decipher nineteenth century

381
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 1: and eighteenth century writing all the time, and this is

382
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,720
Speaker 1: a little bit of a challenge for me. So the

383
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:15,919
Speaker 1: police are confounded.

384
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:17,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm looking at this letter.

385
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 2: You know, of course spelling and grammatical errors are apparent,

386
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 2: but also the shakiness of the writing. This looks to

387
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,720
Speaker 2: me like somebody is using their off hand to write

388
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 2: this letter. Okay, take a look at the first fifty thousand,

389
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,359
Speaker 2: and you see the three zeros that are almost squared off.

390
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:39,360
Speaker 2: This is how if I were to try to write

391
00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,120
Speaker 2: with my I'm right handed, if I try to write

392
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,720
Speaker 2: with my left hand, That's what it looks like because.

393
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,200
Speaker 1: You're overemphasizing right, You're trying to make that.

394
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 3: Circle and you're just not practiced.

395
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 2: This looks like this really is the you know, it's

396
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,480
Speaker 2: being written in the off hand. I'd be interested to

397
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,959
Speaker 2: see what a bona fide document examiner would conclude about this.

398
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,679
Speaker 1: So what is interesting is the amount of mistakes that

399
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,120
Speaker 1: are made. And they seem to appreciate this letter. They

400
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 1: are now alarmed. It's a good piece of evidence. But

401
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,680
Speaker 1: they're now alarmed because this is demanding money and weird increments.

402
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,639
Speaker 1: But it's clearly a ransom note, and you can imagine

403
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 1: that Charles and Ann, on the one hand, are terrified,

404
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,719
Speaker 1: on the other hand, are relieved because it seems like

405
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 1: with money, which of course they have, they are going

406
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 1: to be able to get back their son. One of

407
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 1: the things that they don't want to hear about because

408
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,159
Speaker 1: they want to just figure out where Charles Junior is.

409
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:33,399
Speaker 1: But that the police are saying is they think that

410
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,400
Speaker 1: the misspellings like good instead of good. The writer might

411
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:42,400
Speaker 1: be European, or more specifically German. This is thirty two.

412
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,880
Speaker 1: It wouldn't be that surprising for them to think that.

413
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 1: They also think these are some legitimate German words mixed

414
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,439
Speaker 1: in here. I don't know. I don't speak German, but

415
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: they are leaning towards this being a legitimate letter written

416
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 1: by an quote unquote honest writer, not somebody who's trying

417
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 1: to deceive them, who is from a European country, and

418
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 1: that's why they're not composing this correctly.

419
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 2: I don't think I have an opinion on that. Maybe

420
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 2: the spelling and grammatical issues and some of the words

421
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 2: being used from that time period would suggest that part

422
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,679
Speaker 2: of what I'm going over inside my head is the

423
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 2: location of where this envelope in letter was found on

424
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 2: the windowsill. Yeah, it would make more sense that that

425
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 2: would be placed right where the little boy was sleeping,

426
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 2: where he should have been, because then it would be

427
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 2: very obvious and be found if it's on the windowsill.

428
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 2: Was the window left open? Is it possible this envelope

429
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 2: could have blown out? It just seems like an odd location.

430
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 2: Don't know what to make of that. It's just an

431
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 2: observation right now.

432
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,919
Speaker 1: Okay, let me move on to mistakes, because we know

433
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 1: they are going to be mistakes made in this investigation.

434
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 1: The footprints, which you and I think could be moderately valuable,

435
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: nothing to groundbreaking, most likely doesn't really matter because the

436
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 1: police didn't protect the scene and a gazillion people trampled

437
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 1: through and ruined all of the mundy footprints, the ones

438
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 1: that were at the bottom of the ladder, the ones

439
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 1: that were inside the house at the time. There were

440
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 1: tire tracks that Lindbergh says didn't belong to his car, ruined,

441
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: totally ruined by all the people who came, all the responders,

442
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: all of the Glaukers, their neighbors, so they had zero

443
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: control over this crime scene when it happened, So they

444
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: had some missed opportunities. Again, are we really thinking tire

445
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: tracks and footprints and bootprints are going to break this case?

446
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 2: No, not necessarily break the case, but it could be

447
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 2: valuable evidence both from being associative. If you do get

448
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 2: a suspect, you get the suspects vehicle, you get suspect shoes,

449
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 2: and if there was sufficient quality at the crime scene

450
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 2: with the impressions and the prints left behind, you know,

451
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: you could show that yes, the suspect shoes and the

452
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 2: suspects vehicle could have made what was left at the

453
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 2: crime scene, or you eliminate you always tried to exclude

454
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: we just talk about, but also it's that reconstructive stuff

455
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 2: that is often overlooked, you know, those tire impressions that

456
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 2: would be informative to me in terms of assessing how

457
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 2: is this offender getting to this scene so close with

458
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 2: this ladder? How is the offender driving off Is it

459
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 2: realistic for the offender to have been able to do

460
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 2: that while the kid's parents and nurse are inside the

461
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 2: house without the vehicle being heard or seen.

462
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 3: So that's just all part of what I would.

463
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 2: Hope if they had preserved that evidence to be able

464
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 2: to get out of that crime scene but they didn't

465
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,479
Speaker 2: preserve it, and so all that information is gone.

466
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: It's gone. We don't know very much about this at all.

467
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: So Charles Lindberg decides to bring in an intermediary because

468
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: he doesn't trust the police to negotiate with these kidnappers

469
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: or kidnapper whomever it is. So let me look at

470
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 1: the note and try to decipher it one more time.

471
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: So he's demanding fifty thousand dollars, and after a couple

472
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 1: of days, we're going to let you know where to

473
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: deliver the money. Do not say anything to the public,

474
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 1: don't notify the police. Your kid is just fine, and

475
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: we're going to make a clean exchange. And that's that

476
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 1: what happens in kidnapping cases. I know, as a government

477
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 1: we typically don't negotiate with hostages. But what happens when

478
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 1: it's a private citizen who's been kidnapped.

479
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the private citizen like Charles Lindberg, of course,

480
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 2: can start pursuing his own means in terms of trying

481
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 2: to recover his child. However, once he's reported to this

482
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 2: abduction to law enforcement, you now have a crime that

483
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 2: has taken place. Law enforcement is beholden to investigate this

484
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 2: crime and would be advising Charles Lindberg, you know, do

485
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 2: not interfere with our investigation. But they can't stop him

486
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: from deciding I'm going to hire somebody that I trust,

487
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 2: who I think has the necessary skill sets to maximize

488
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 2: my ability to get my child child back.

489
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: Well, the intermediary is an interesting story. So what ends

490
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: up happening is there is a man named doctor John

491
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 1: Condon who decides he would like to negotiate with the

492
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: kidnappers himself, and he publishes outside of Charles Lindberg contacting anyone,

493
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 1: he pays for the publication of a letter in a

494
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: newspaper that says I would like to act as an intermediary,

495
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: and when it's published, someone claiming to be the kidnapper

496
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: actually reaches out to him. Doctor Condon reaches out to

497
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: Lindberg and says, listen, I had made this public, so

498
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 1: I am willing to help. What do you want me

499
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: to do? And Lindbergh says, let's do it. Whatever it

500
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: takes to get my twenty month old baby back, I'll

501
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: do it. This seems like a terrible idea to me,

502
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: you know, of.

503
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 2: Course, It's like, well, is this person who's contacting through

504
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 2: the newspaper. Is this truly the abductor Yeah, we know

505
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 2: you have a lot of these people out here that

506
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: will insert themselves into these crimes and really.

507
00:26:58,440 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 3: Confuse the investigation.

508
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: So in some ways Condon is almost like one of

509
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 2: these onlines loose today that decide they're going to take

510
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 2: the investigation into their own hands, and then things get messy.

511
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 3: You know. Back in nineteen thirty.

512
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 2: Two, the abductors are saying that they will communicate where

513
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,479
Speaker 2: to deliver the money. How are they planning on doing

514
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: that through the telephone, through the mail system? Delivering another

515
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: envelope in the middle of the night to his house.

516
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: I think it's through the mail system, because ultimately what

517
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,719
Speaker 1: ends up happening is that they are finally instructions that

518
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: come through, presumably through the mail system. There's a letter

519
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: and it instructs doctor Condon, with no police of course,

520
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: to meet at New York's Woodlawn Cemetery with this fifty

521
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: thousand dollars payment, which by the bye is more than

522
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: a million dollars in today's money. So this is a

523
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: serious ransom demand. So they say, go there and you

524
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 1: will meet a man named Cemetery John which is of

525
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 1: all the monikers I've heard, is one of the more

526
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,959
Speaker 1: creative and sort of nonsense. What do you think about

527
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: this guy who's not related to the Lindbergh showing up

528
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: at a cemetery with fifty thousand dollars to meet someone

529
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: named cemetery John. This seems haphazard at best.

530
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 3: Oh, it very much is.

531
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 2: And we're meeting Cemetery John at the cemetery in order

532
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 2: to exchange what today would be a million dollars. That's sketchy.

533
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: So many things could go wrong here for the Lindbergh family.

534
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 2: I mean, Condon could just abscond with this fifty thousand dollars.

535
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 2: Condon could be killed while the fifty thousand dollars has

536
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 2: taken off of him. He's just straight up robbed, and

537
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: there's no return of the child. This is really kind

538
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: of a uncontrolled exchange and it is a bad, bad

539
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:45,959
Speaker 2: situation all the way around.

540
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: And what's interesting is this is happening one month after

541
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: Lindberg has been kidnapped. This little boy has been kidnapped,

542
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: and the kidnappers have been trying to ramp up the

543
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: attention from the Lindberghs to convince them that this boy

544
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: is still alive. They sent a jumper, which is his

545
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: little clothing to them. So a package is delivered with

546
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: a jumper in it, and the nurse finds one of

547
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: his little thumb sucker things at the front entrance of

548
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: the property in a way where she would obviously be

549
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: able to find it. So they are not taunting, I guess,

550
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: but they're just sort of trying to send proof of

551
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: life over this course of time. They don't seem to

552
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: be very good at this, but they are about to

553
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: get the equivalent of more than a million dollars for

554
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: this child.

555
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 2: I'm going to call it a pacifier, you know, the

556
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: thumbsucker things that's actually found at the house. You know what.

557
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: I had to look this up. It's actually called a

558
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: thumb guard, okay, and it's a little thing that goes

559
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: This is definitely not something I think that's been used recently.

560
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: It's the little device that goes over your thumb to

561
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: stop the thumb sucking, okay. And it's found at the

562
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: entrance of the Lindberg property.

563
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 3: Oh okay.

564
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 2: So the person who's delivering it isn't going up to

565
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: the house but is just driving by and is able

566
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: to just place this right.

567
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: There, okay, And it's the same one that Charlie was

568
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: wearing that night, the little boy was wearing that night.

569
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: So doctor Condon meets cemetery John, the exchange is made.

570
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: It's paid in gold certificates which have serial numbers on them.

571
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: I mean, again, not the smartest kidnapper, Yeah, doctor Condon was.

572
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: After the exchange, he was given instructions by Cemetery John,

573
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: who had a German accent, by the way, Cemetery John

574
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: who gave him written instructions on where to find little

575
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: Charlie Lindbergh. So this was not here's your kid, I'll

576
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,959
Speaker 1: take the money. This was to I'll take the money

577
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:39,959
Speaker 1: and let me give you instructions on where to go

578
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: to find him. And I suppose the family was so

579
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: desperate that they were willing to do anything, but they

580
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: also knew that they would track him using the serial

581
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: numbers on these gold certificates.

582
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 3: Okay, so they had recorded.

583
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: The family's not working with law enforcement, but they were

584
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: smart enough to record the serial numbers on the gold certificates.

585
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: And then they contact law enforcement who says, okay, we

586
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: have no other clues, so we're going to do the

587
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: best we can. It's the detective's idea to give the

588
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: gold certificates and not just cash, something that in nineteen

589
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: thirty two they're going to be able to track. But

590
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: the kidnapper, if it's Cemetery John at all, the kidnapper

591
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: is not smart enough to realize that this can be tracked.

592
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: He is smart enough to take more than a million

593
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: dollars in today's money and take off and give these instructions.

594
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: So the final instructions are Charlie can be found between

595
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: Horseneck Beach and Gayhead near Elizabeth Island on a boat

596
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: called Nelly. Do these ever work out? Do these sorts

597
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: of exchanges? Is it rare that they work out? In history?

598
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think in my jurisdiction of a case

599
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 2: like you know, in which there is a ransom letter

600
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 2: and a child taken. This is something that is we

601
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: just don't experience frequently at all. So in terms of

602
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 2: you know, me putting some sort of well does it

603
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 2: actually work out? You know, it's like it's something you see,

604
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: you know, in TV plots and movie plots, But it's

605
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 2: a rare type of crime. The specificity of the location

606
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: to where the boy is going to be found. Is

607
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: interesting because that suggests that the offender definitely has at

608
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 2: least been to that location enough to be able to

609
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 2: describe it. So of course you need to go to

610
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 2: the location and see if the boy's there, and he

611
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 2: wasn't of course not.

612
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: So they are free and clear with fifty thousand dollars

613
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: and the Lindberghs don't have their child. This now becomes

614
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: huge news because the Lindberghs have nothing to lose at

615
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: this point, it's all over the media. The police are

616
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: now under tremendous pressure and doctor Condon does a sketch

617
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: with a police artist that I'll show you in a

618
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: little bit once we get a suspect. So the kidnappers

619
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: in the wind see cemetery John. And this has become

620
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: a source of frustration for the police because they're under

621
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: tremendous pressure because one of the most famous people now

622
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: in the world has a missing child and it's now

623
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: been about two months. When a truck driver makes a

624
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: really really sad discovery. On May twelfth, which is about

625
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: two months after he was kidnapped. This truck driver pulls

626
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: over and ventures onto about forty five feet from his

627
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: vehicle to relieve himself, and that's where he sees the

628
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: body of this little boy, okay, and it's in very,

629
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: very very bad shape. It's decomposing, of course, because it's

630
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: been two months, assuming that he was killed immediately or

631
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: not immediately, it's decomposing. It's in an advanced state of

632
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: decomposition for sure. So this is what the injuries are.

633
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: His head had been crushed and there's a hole in

634
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: his skull. And what they think is that the coroner

635
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: says that he later concluded that the baby suffered from

636
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: deadly blunt force trauma. And this is what's interesting. The

637
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: corner says that it's speculated he died shortly after the kidnapping,

638
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: and he thinks that it's possible with these injuries that

639
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 1: the little boy died when the kidnapper fell breaking the ladder.

640
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: Craig skull, what do you think about that?

641
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 2: Are these these injuries? Are they exposed wounds? You know,

642
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 2: you've got blunt force trauma to the head. Was a

643
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 2: scalp lacerated.

644
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: Now I'm showing you in the photo which we are

645
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: not going to show on social media, so it looks

646
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: like there's still flesh. I mean it's not exposed skull,

647
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: but it's really hard to tell.

648
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, there appears to be some damage to

649
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 2: the right side of a baby's head.

650
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 3: Yeah.

651
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 2: I can't tell though if that's you know, was a

652
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 2: like an injury or is just a weird artifact going

653
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 2: on there. Let's say this ladder broke while the abductor

654
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 2: is trying to escape with this boy and drops this boy,

655
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: which would be a natural response, right, Yeah, and now

656
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 2: you could see the boy's head impacting the ground or

657
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 2: a component of the ladder and possibly receiving blunt force

658
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 2: and potentially fatal injuries. The pathologist isn't off base under

659
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 2: that scenario. But if these head wounds were open wounds

660
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: at that time, I would expect that there would have

661
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: been some blood present at that scene to indicate that

662
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: that happened. And so that's where I would be wanting

663
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: to know more about the autops results on this body

664
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: to determine whether or not this was, if you want

665
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: to call it, an accidental death. And then the body

666
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 2: was discarded shortly thereafter, but the ransom ploy was still

667
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 2: in play, or did they choose to kill the baby

668
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 2: at some point after the abduction by inflicting blows to

669
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 2: the baby's head.

670
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 1: Well, we can say confidently it didn't have been in

671
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: the crib because there's no blood anywhere, right, And my

672
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: question is what the coroner said was there was a

673
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,399
Speaker 1: hole in his skull. Is that something that could really

674
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: happen just from falling for I don't know if that's

675
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: one hundred feet, I don't even know how tall that

676
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: would be. Does that seem right, a hole in the skull.

677
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 2: We're only talking from the second floor window maximum height. Yeah,

678
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: so I mean we're talking less than twenty feet that

679
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 2: the fall could have been, and it was likely less. Well, certainly,

680
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 2: if the head impacts a narrow enough object, it could

681
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 2: be a rod on the ground, a rock on the

682
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: ground that's got a certain configuration. You could get a

683
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 2: hole that penetrates into the skull from a fall. That

684
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: I don't question. It's just if something like that were

685
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: to occur, then now you do have that open head injury,

686
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 2: and head injuries like that bleed excessively, so there would

687
00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 2: be evidence of that type of.

688
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 3: Oouned at the scene.

689
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 2: I agree, I right now with the information provided it's

690
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: possible that the baby had been strangled up in the

691
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 2: crib and then taken down the ladder.

692
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 3: Received some injuries as a result of the fall.

693
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 2: But this hole in the skull sounds like the offenders

694
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 2: at some point after getting the kid into a vehicle,

695
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 2: they made sure this kid was dead.

696
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I was thinking smothering because there's blankets.

697
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: Back then, they didn't understand that you shouldn't pull a

698
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: bunch of blankets in a crib. I figured he just

699
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: smothered the kid and that does two things. Kills the

700
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: child and also of course stops the crying. I agree

701
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: with you. I think there would have been blood everywhere.

702
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 1: And I think even if he had gotten Charles Junior

703
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 1: away from the scene, presuming it's a man, this is

704
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: someone who probably has not dealt with children, and if

705
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: you have an upset kid with a cold, this is

706
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: not going to go well. So I would love to

707
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: say that this happened during all and somebody wouldn't be

708
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: such a terrible person to do this, But it sounds

709
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: like this was something that was absolutely intentional.

710
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 3: To me. The hole in.

711
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 2: The skull really suggests that the abductor or an associate

712
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: just decided that the kid.

713
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 3: Was no longer needed.

714
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 2: They had accomplished what was needed to do, which was

715
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 2: to put the fear in the Lindbergh family so that

716
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 2: the family was willing to provide money in exchange for

717
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 2: their son. But trying to care for this child over

718
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: the course of several months, you know, that's a lot

719
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: of work and they probably didn't want to deal with that.

720
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 2: So I would not be surprised if with the planning

721
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 2: going into this case, the intent was was to kill

722
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 2: the kid early on and dispose of the body, but

723
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: keep the ruse and deploy going on the ransom.

724
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: Well, one note is that Charlie's body was found five

725
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: miles just five miles from his parents' property. So do

726
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: you think that this happened almost immediately in the car

727
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: or the smothering habit or But if there's smothering, that

728
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't really account for Why would you then bash somebody's

729
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: head in If we're taking out the possibility that falling

730
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: off a ladder would cause this. I don't know. I'm

731
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: confused about where he died and when, but I just

732
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: know he ended up five miles from his parents' house,

733
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 1: badly decomposed two months later.

734
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and looking at the photo and looking

735
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: at the decomposition, This is entirely possible that this body

736
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:30,439
Speaker 2: has been out there.

737
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 3: What time of year is this?

738
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: This is in May is when they find it. But

739
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: he went missing March first, and this is New Jersey,

740
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 1: so it's cold still.

741
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 2: It's cold, Yeah, it's you know, the state of the

742
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: body is consistent to my experience of one that could

743
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 2: have been out there from the night that this child

744
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 2: was abducted.

745
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: And I think one thing we have talked about in

746
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: the past, they really had to lean heavily on mars

747
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: or something that would make an individual mark or something

748
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 1: unique about a person able to when you're able to

749
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 1: identify someone who is this badly decomposed. And they used

750
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: the clothing that was nearby. The family identified that this

751
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: was Charlie's clothing, and he had a oddity. He had

752
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: a deformed foot, and it sounds like this is okay.

753
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: I'm not looking too closely at this picture because it's

754
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: really disturbing, but you can see that the foot is

755
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: deformed there.

756
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 3: I see that.

757
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think there's any question. This most certainly

758
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 2: is Charles Junior. The question is is when was Charles

759
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 2: Junior killed and how was Charles Junior killed.

760
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: And what happens next, Because now you're missing out on

761
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: more than a million dollars of today's money, and your

762
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: child is dead, and there as a murderer running around, right.

763
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: So the police now start looking even more closely they

764
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 1: had been, but they're now really looking closely to the

765
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: forensic evidence. And they look at the sketch and we'll

766
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: talk about the sketch in a little bit once we

767
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: get a good suspect going here. But they look at

768
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: a couple of other things that I thought were interesting,

769
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 1: especially for nineteen thirty two. You know, I go into

770
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 1: these stories and I'm always prized how innovative they had

771
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: to be. It wasn't as haphazard as you might think

772
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties and the nineteen thirties and even

773
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds on how they would solve some

774
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: of these cases. So they took a look first at

775
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: the ladder, and the ladder was interesting that there was

776
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: somebody from the US Forest Service who looked at the

777
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: ladder and did some pretty incredible forensic research on the wood.

778
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: He contacted one thousand, six hundred lumber mills. I'm not

779
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: sure if I'm not committed to find this wood that

780
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: this homemade ladder was made of.

781
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 3: Wow, what kind of wood was it?

782
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: It was supplemented with repurposed wood like paneling or flooring

783
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: from a home business. Sounded unique, and it was only

784
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: available from a very specific lumberyard in the Bronx, New York.

785
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's the type of thing. When you get

786
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 2: to this form of evidence you're always looking to see,

787
00:41:55,360 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: is it super rare? Because now it provides investigative information.

788
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 2: Most of the time I've done this type of tracking,

789
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 2: not specifically on wood, but I'll have items that have

790
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 2: been left at the scene or let's say a tire impression,

791
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 2: and it's like, Okay, is this coming back to a

792
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 2: limited number of people who would own something like this?

793
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 2: And if it does, then it's golden. So this is

794
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 2: significant to me in terms of the rarity of the wood,

795
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 2: and it's being tracked back to a particular lumber mill.

796
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,919
Speaker 2: But now you're still many steps removed from well, who

797
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: used the wood to build this ladder?

798
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And they're going to continue to piece the

799
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: profile of this person together. So they are laser focused

800
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: on the gold certificates because remember the gold certificates, they

801
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 1: wrote down the serial numbers. They're able to track them.

802
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: I don't know much about tracking money now, I'm sure

803
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,760
Speaker 1: you're going to tell me in a second. But tracking

804
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,720
Speaker 1: then meant the bank would alert the police if someone

805
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: deposited these goldificates and the gold certificates serial numbers matched

806
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: the serial numbers from the kidnapper. And that happened. Somebody

807
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: used a gas station and used the gold certificates to

808
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: pay for gas, and the gas station cashier remembered and

809
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: he was alerted, you know, and then talked to the bank,

810
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: and the bank looked and cross referenced and found out

811
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: that the person who had paid for gas at this

812
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: gas station would be somebody who was a suspect. And

813
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: the serial numbers match. So this is somebody who has

814
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: at least given the gold certificate from the kidnapper.

815
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this shows that due to the high profile

816
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,479
Speaker 2: of this case, you know, now you had a member

817
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: of the public who is aware that, Okay, the gold

818
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 2: certificate is something I need to be paying attention to.

819
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 2: And I would imagine and tell me if I'm wrong.

820
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 2: If you know that it'd be relatively rare for a

821
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 2: customer to pay for gas back in the day with

822
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,919
Speaker 2: the gold certificate, So this would really stand.

823
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 3: Out to that merchant.

824
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 1: Not only did it stand out, it alarmed the cashier

825
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: enough to write own his license plate number.

826
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 3: Oh now our in business?

827
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: Isn't this the kind of guy we like? Is this

828
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: the kind of guy we like? We love this kind

829
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: of witness who is suspicious. And they come back with

830
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: a name. His name is Bruno Richard Hauptmann. He is German.

831
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 1: He is also a carpenter okay, with access to that

832
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,240
Speaker 1: lumber yard in the Bronx.

833
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 3: Okay.

834
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 2: So circumstantially there appears to be some movement that he

835
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 2: could be involved.

836
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 3: Yep.

837
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: So first thing they do, of course, is talk to him.

838
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: Two years later too. I mean, this family has been

839
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: tortured for this long two years later.

840
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, at this point they've lived with the knowledge that

841
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 2: their son was killed. Yeah, because sun was body was

842
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 2: found what two months after yeah?

843
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, so basically almost two years.

844
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 2: You know, they now know, Okay, we're not going to

845
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: get our son back, We're not going to get our

846
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars back, but we want to know who

847
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 2: did this.

848
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 3: Yep.

849
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 1: So they compare the sketch that the intermediary had met

850
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: cemetery John quote unquote, let me show you the sketch,

851
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: and let me show you a photo of this suspect

852
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: of ours, which is Bruno Richard Helptmann. So there's the

853
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: sketch on the left and then there's his mugshot.

854
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 2: On the right, and they made this sketch shortly after

855
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 2: the exchange of the money.

856
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 3: Correct.

857
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, So this is one of the best composites

858
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: in terms of similarities to the suspect that I've seen.

859
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 3: I'm shocked at how good this sketch is.

860
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's of course differences, but in terms of facial proportions, features.

861
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 3: It's really close.

862
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 2: I'm pleasantly surprised at the quality of this sketch.

863
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: So big props to the sketch artists from nineteen thirty two. Yeah, now,

864
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: I think it's an excellent likeness helpedman again circumstantial ish.

865
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: You know, he could say I had nothing to do

866
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: with this. This sort of looks like me. How much

867
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: do we rely on sketches? Are they relying in any

868
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: way or is it just one more little tiny piece

869
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: of circumstantial evidence that you can add into the pile?

870
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 2: You know, from my perspective, sketches composites. They are there

871
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 2: to provide investigative leads. I do not consider them evidence.

872
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 2: It's not something that I personally feel should be presented

873
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 2: in front of a jury. To me, it's to provide

874
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 2: enough information to go, Okay, this person at least falls

875
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 2: within the ballpark of this sketch. You have to build

876
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 2: a case around the sketch or based off of the

877
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 2: lead the sketch provides, and you don't use the sketch

878
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 2: to make the case.

879
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: I will say that they really didn't need the sketch

880
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 1: because they found a lot of information. So they go

881
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: and of course to send on his house. They find

882
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: nearly fourteen thousand dollars in the garage, which is an

883
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 1: incredible amount of money, which is about you know, three

884
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars today. It's in cash. It's not the

885
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: gold certificates, okay, So I don't know if he converted those.

886
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: They weren't able to track those particular serial numbers. Maybe

887
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: he went to a bank faraway who hadn't been alerted.

888
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: The police claimed that they found doctor Condon's telephone number

889
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: in the address written down on the doorframe of a

890
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 1: closet inside Bruno's residence. So just connecting Cemetery John to

891
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: Bruno to doctor Condon, which they're assuming Cemetery John, of course,

892
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,879
Speaker 1: is the same as Bruno. Strong evidence. I mean they

893
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,720
Speaker 1: find the contact the intermediary.

894
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 2: You know, you end up stacking evidence, whether it's circumstantial

895
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 2: physical evidence, as you build a case. So right now

896
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 2: they are solidifying an aspect of the case. He matches

897
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 2: the composite of Cemetery John. He has information about Condon

898
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: inside his house. He also has large amounts of cash

899
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: that I'm presuming he doesn't have the income from his

900
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 2: job or anything else that would support him having that

901
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 2: type of cash. So this is now associating him in

902
00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 2: terms of being Cemetery John.

903
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 3: But you need to move from that to.

904
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 2: Is he the person that built and climbed up that

905
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 2: ladder and abducted Charles Junior.

906
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, So they continue to try to do that. They

907
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: match the flooring found in Bruno's house to the flooring

908
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: that was sold at the Bronx lumber mill to the

909
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 1: flooring that the homemade ladder was made of. More circumstantial evidence.

910
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 1: He's not the only person who could have bought that flooring.

911
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: And used it to build a ladder.

912
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 2: Right now, I'm immediately going to does he have let's say,

913
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 2: pieces of wood that the wood from the ladder could

914
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 2: have been cut from. Is there the possibility of doing

915
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 2: a physical match?

916
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 3: That is what I would be keying in.

917
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: On sort of, So here's another piece of circumstantial evidence

918
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,879
Speaker 1: that still doesn't make things look good for Bruno. They

919
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 1: find tools and nails that are responsible for certain markings

920
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,839
Speaker 1: on the ladder, they believe, so certain nails that were used,

921
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: maybe they're specialized nails from the ladder that was found

922
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: at the site. Okay, And he has also worked at

923
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 1: this particular lumberyard, so that makes it a little bit

924
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:07,280
Speaker 1: more suspect.

925
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 2: I'm assuming yes, the circumstances of his access to the

926
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 2: wood that was used in the ladder is stacking up

927
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 2: on top of him as being okay, so he's potentially

928
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 2: involved as an accessory in terms of the money exchange

929
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 2: as well as building the ladder in order to access

930
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 2: the WINDOWSILL still need to kind of build a case.

931
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 2: Is he the person that climbed up that ladder and

932
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 2: went inside the Lindbergh house and stole Charles Junior handwriting?

933
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: So this is the ransom note. And remember it was misspelled.

934
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 1: The dollar signs were at the end of the money,

935
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: not at the beginning, so it would say fifty thousand

936
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 1: with a dollar sign at the end. Once they've arrested

937
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 1: him and they begin to put him on trial, he

938
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 1: denies the whole thing. Of course, we have these experts

939
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 1: who say, we've compared his handwriting from letters that he's written.

940
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: That's very similar, but not similar in the way that

941
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: I think this is bunk. Similar the loops and stuff

942
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: that could change based on what medicine you're on or

943
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: how much alcohol you've been drinking. It's similar as in

944
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 1: the letter from the kidnapper and from Bruno. Both of

945
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: these people hyphenated New York, which is unusual. And they

946
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: also both put the dollar sign at the end of

947
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: the list of numbers, which is also unusual. So they're

948
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 1: looking at similarities in style, not similarities and loops and stuff.

949
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 2: Sure, that's good information. I would want to know did

950
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 2: they find or were they even looking for indented writing,

951
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 2: you know, like you have on a notepad. Yeah, yeah,

952
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 2: you write the ransom letter and then the piece of

953
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 2: paper underneath it with oblique lighting or even just you know,

954
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 2: you could take a pencil and.

955
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 3: Shade and actually visualize that. That's what I would want.

956
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 2: I'd want to show, Oh, here's the source of the

957
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 2: paper that was used for the ransom letter.

958
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 3: And we actually have a copy of.

959
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 2: The ransom letter in a form of indented writing indicating

960
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 2: it was written on top of this other piece of

961
00:50:57,719 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 2: paper that's found inside the suspect's house.

962
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 1: I don't know if they checked for that, but they

963
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: didn't report finding it. That would have been a nice

964
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 1: little smoking gun for them. Absolutely, But so far we've got,

965
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: you know, the battle of the experts. There's only one

966
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 1: expert who says, eh, I don't know this handwriting fits

967
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: that handwriting, but there are eight for the state who

968
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 1: say yes, it does. So this is a massive trial.

969
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 1: It's a huge sensation. My forensic scientist from American Sherlock

970
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: was called to take a look. He didn't have a

971
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 1: real opinion. He came in very early, when there was

972
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 1: little information. All the who's who of anyone came to

973
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 1: this trial. There were sixty thousand people crowding around the

974
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: courthouse and Flamington, New Jersey, Wow in nineteen thirty four

975
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 1: to see this trial. It was a huge trial. I

976
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: mean I had remembered reading about it just from historical newspapers.

977
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you think in nineteen ninety five with

978
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 2: OJ Simpson, they were calling that, you know, the trial

979
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 2: of the century. There wasn't sixty thousand people, you know,

980
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,760
Speaker 2: outside of the courthouse in Los Angeles. Yep. Bill, that's

981
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 2: shocking to me that this is occurring back then, nineteen

982
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:01,800
Speaker 2: thirties at that level.

983
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. So now we're going to get to Bruno's

984
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: point of view, which I think is pretty interesting. He

985
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 1: is saying that the police intimidated him. There is even

986
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: accusations of police brutality. He gave writing samples is how

987
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: they ended up coming up with stuff. They said, write

988
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: this sentence, and he did it. But Bruno says the

989
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: police made me do it in that style specifically, so

990
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 1: he is saying he was forced in one of the

991
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: biggest pieces of evidence against him to make Paul's going crazy.

992
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: You guys can't tell his facial expressions are off the jarney.

993
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: He has something to say about this idea.

994
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 2: Well, when handwriting exemplars are obtained from suspects, of course,

995
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 2: you're collecting samples that they have just done during their

996
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 2: normal life that have nothing to do with the case.

997
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 2: But then you are asking the person to write basically

998
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 2: what was written. You want to see how the person

999
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,760
Speaker 2: would write that, so you could dictate to the person, Okay,

1000
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: write this. It's part of the process to see how

1001
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 2: they would form those sentences. So this is where I

1002
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 2: think I would agree that both things are probably happening.

1003
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 2: I wouldn't put it past law enforcement from the nineteen

1004
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 2: thirties to be heavy handed with such a suspect. Yeah.

1005
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 2: On the other hand, I could also see where his

1006
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 2: perspective is as well.

1007
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 3: They told me to write.

1008
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 2: That way because that's what the document examiners want to see.

1009
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 3: They don't want to just see random stuff.

1010
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,399
Speaker 2: They also want to see how the person writes with

1011
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,919
Speaker 2: what was present in the evidence. So this is where

1012
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 2: that would have to be teased out a little bit

1013
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 2: more for me to get a better sense. And it

1014
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 2: just may be part of this adversarial process where the

1015
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 2: defense is putting one spin on what actually happened and

1016
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 2: the prosecution is putting another spin on what actually happened.

1017
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we don't know how they requested the exemplars

1018
00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: from him, And you're right, what the process is like,

1019
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: we do know that he's blaming someone else. He says,

1020
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 1: I did not do this. He said, I will tell

1021
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 1: you what happened though. At my house, I had a

1022
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 1: friend named Isadore Fish. Fish was German, and when Fish

1023
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: said I'm going on a trip to Germany, can I

1024
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: leave something with you? Bruno said sure. It was a

1025
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: box and he put it in his closet for safekeeping

1026
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: until Fish was going to come back. There was a

1027
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: leaky pipe, and when Bruno looked at the box, which

1028
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 1: was now at this point ruined, he found a lot

1029
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 1: of money inside. And he did not know what came

1030
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,919
Speaker 1: from the money. He did not know whether his friend

1031
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: was going to come back, so he did what a

1032
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:39,799
Speaker 1: lot of people would do, which is he started to

1033
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: spend it. There were some cash and there were some

1034
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 1: gold certificates in there, and it was a huge amount

1035
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: of money for a man who was a carpenter and

1036
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of money. So this is what

1037
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 1: he said happened. He said, I have no idea if

1038
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 1: he kidnapped and killed this kid. I know I didn't.

1039
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: And now there's a friend in Germany who you all

1040
00:54:58,280 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: need to track down, not me.

1041
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is.

1042
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: A man who ultimately was a real person, and he

1043
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: died in Germany and was there. They were friends, so

1044
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 1: all of that matches up. We don't know if Isidora

1045
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 1: actually did leave a box of money, but he was

1046
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 1: dead by the time all of this happened, so there

1047
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 1: was no questioning him. So there was no questioning Bruno's

1048
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 1: story because it was all very feasible.

1049
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,240
Speaker 2: And this is where now I'm kind of going back

1050
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 2: to the composite of cemetery John. I'd want to know

1051
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 2: how similar is a door looked to that composite? Do

1052
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,720
Speaker 2: we have any photographs of Isidor.

1053
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 1: I do have a photo of Isidor. There's Isidor at

1054
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 1: the bottom. What do you think? Not far all they

1055
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:42,280
Speaker 1: look alike?

1056
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 3: Damn it?

1057
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 1: I know Bruno and is the door look alike?

1058
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 3: Okay?

1059
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 2: And then then, of course what we don't have is

1060
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 2: the physical size right of cemetery John, Do we have

1061
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 2: any information along those lines with cemetery John six foot

1062
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 2: five and Isidor is five to six or or are

1063
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 2: they just within the ballpark of each other?

1064
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 1: I think it's a ballpark. It seems more consistent with

1065
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 1: Bruno according to Condon, but who knows I will tell

1066
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 1: you this, there's enough reasonable doubt to convince people even

1067
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: today that there's a possibility Bruno did not do this.

1068
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: It did not convince the jury, though, because he was

1069
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 1: found guilty and he was given a death sentence, and

1070
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 1: so he died in nineteen thirty six in the electric chair.

1071
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:28,320
Speaker 3: Oh well, okay.

1072
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 1: He proclaimed his innocence the whole time. And what's interesting

1073
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: about this case is it's still sort of enduring because

1074
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: there are a lot of theories about what happened. There

1075
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,760
Speaker 1: are theories that, of course Bruno was railroaded for whatever reason,

1076
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: and that Isidora is the real killer. There are theories

1077
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 1: that that was not actually Charlie Lindberg, that we see

1078
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,720
Speaker 1: the dead body, that he actually was alive and well,

1079
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: and I suppose technically could still be alive right now.

1080
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 1: There are also reports of more than one hundred people

1081
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 1: who have said they are the real kidnappers. You executed

1082
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: the wrong person. Over the years, hundreds of people have

1083
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,279
Speaker 1: said that. So this is a mystery that has just

1084
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: been explosive in the eighty ninety years that it's been around.

1085
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: So that's one of the reasons why I wanted to

1086
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: get your take on it is, you know, how did

1087
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 1: this baby die? What were the intentions of the kidnapper?

1088
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: And it sounds like Bruno is our most likely suspect

1089
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: here to me, Yeah.

1090
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 3: But it needs to be firmed up.

1091
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 2: You know, there's no question that the offender had prior

1092
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 2: knowledge of where this baby was going to be on

1093
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 2: the second floor, built a ladder, had skills enough to

1094
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 2: build a ladder, had the time during that night to

1095
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 2: get out there. Now assessing Bruno versus Isidor, we know

1096
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 2: Bruno's a carpenter, and he, you know, had worked at

1097
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 2: the lumberyard where that wood came from. But Isidor is

1098
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 2: at Bruno's house at times? It possibly could have used

1099
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 2: wood that was inside Bruno's house in order to construct

1100
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 2: a ladder. Is Isidoor a carpenter? Which one of them

1101
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 2: had any knowledge? Maybe one of them worked at the

1102
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 2: Lindbergh House for a job prior to the abduction and

1103
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 2: so devised a plan. Is there a way to show

1104
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 2: a connection between one or the other or did they

1105
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 2: operate together?

1106
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:16,919
Speaker 3: Right?

1107
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 1: And it sounds like what I had read about Isidor

1108
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: was that he was kind of a sickly person. He

1109
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: decided that even though he was a relatively young man. Well,

1110
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 1: he was a young man. He was in his twenties

1111
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: when all of this happened. He was about twenty six,

1112
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 1: and he had an illness, I don't know what illness,

1113
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 1: and he decided he wanted to go back. In the

1114
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 1: winter of nineteen thirty three, he returns to Germany, where

1115
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: he's from, a year and a half or so after

1116
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 1: the kidnapping. It is very possible they work together. It

1117
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: is very possible that Isidor did this on his own,

1118
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 1: someone who's sickly, I'm not sure is going to scale

1119
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: a building. And he died shortly after. So he died

1120
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:58,440
Speaker 1: at age twenty eight in Germany. I mean, in theory

1121
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: it works, and now I think there's enough reasonable doubt

1122
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 1: to at least send Bruno to prison for life, but

1123
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:06,040
Speaker 1: not a capital case.

1124
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 2: I would assume I lean more towards Bruno in this

1125
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 2: as the primary me too. Do we have any idea

1126
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 2: if any of these items of physical evidence still exists today?

1127
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 3: Oh, I know that's a tough question.

1128
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: Are you really going to loop us into that the

1129
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: Charles Lindberg case? I think probably in museums, yes, And

1130
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 1: I can check, we can make this an ongoing thing

1131
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: and I can check and see well, you know, And.

1132
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 2: Part of trying to answer this question from a historical perspective,

1133
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 2: because everybody's dead now, you know, so it's not like

1134
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 2: there's anybody's going to be held accountable. But you think

1135
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 2: about the ladder and the offender building that ladder, and

1136
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 2: how much physical contact possibly even cut themselves during building

1137
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 2: the ladder. What's the possibility of recovering the DNA from

1138
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 2: that ladder and then comparing it directly to Bruno or

1139
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 2: is Ador. Yeah, I think there's different possibilities that the

1140
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 2: clothing for Charles Junior, which looked I mean, it looked

1141
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 2: like that was in bad shape. But is there any

1142
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 2: offender DNA on there that could be recovered? I'm just

1143
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 2: kind of spinning on how today, you know, we could

1144
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 2: answer this question, and it seems like it might be

1145
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 2: worthwhile for somebody to roll up their sleeves and dig

1146
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 2: into it.

1147
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 1: Well, even for Isadore's sake, if he's not someone who

1148
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: was involved with this because he died and then all

1149
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 1: of a sudden his name is being brought up. You

1150
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 1: and I did a case a while back called the

1151
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: Coyote Flat. I know, you remember that Jack Ryan, who

1152
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: is a Native American who was accused of killing a

1153
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 1: couple in the nineteen twenties, and he was posthumously exonerated

1154
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 1: by the state of California. I think about fifty years

1155
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 1: after this happened. It matters. So I'm not saying I'm

1156
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 1: taking on the Charles Lindberg kidnapping case with you. I

1157
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 1: am saying, though, that I am not opposed to taking

1158
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:55,479
Speaker 1: a look at these cases, some of these cases again,

1159
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: because if I learn have learned anything from Tenfoldmore Wicked

1160
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: or my books, anything that I do, is that when

1161
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 1: things happen in your family, they matter. In your family

1162
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 1: and how you view your history, your relatives, your ancestors,

1163
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 1: it all shapes who you are. So that trauma and DNA,

1164
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 1: I think is a real thing. So we'll have offline

1165
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 1: discussions about the Lenburgh I'm down, I'll figure it out.

1166
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 2: Well, it's not so far in the past from my

1167
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 2: perspective that there potentially could be work done to get

1168
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 2: an answer. And I have this saying you never know

1169
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 2: until you look. Yeah, and so people may dismiss theirs.

1170
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:41,920
Speaker 2: No way there's going to be DNA from the offender

1171
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 2: on evidence and you can hold on, there's a possibility.

1172
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 2: Has it really been looked at in that perspective?

1173
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for taking a look at this case.

1174
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 1: Children being hurt and killed is terrible for me, but

1175
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 1: I think that this is an important enough case, and

1176
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 1: I knew we get a lot of insight from you,

1177
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:00,479
Speaker 1: so I'm really happy to be able to talk about

1178
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 1: it again.

1179
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 3: You did an excellent job portraying the facts.

1180
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 2: I think now you know, I have more questions on

1181
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 2: the case than than than answers.

1182
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's a fascinating case for sure.

1183
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, So to the listeners, have wonderful holidays, Paul, and

1184
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 1: I will be thinking about you the whole time. We

1185
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 1: promise for the next two weeks, and won't wait. Paul,

1186
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 1: with your whiskey, you can have egnog with whiskey. I

1187
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 1: bet no, no, no egg no with whiskey, just straight Bourbon's.

1188
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 3: That's what I'll be doing, and.

1189
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 1: I'll have clip soda. Have a wonderful winter and we'll

1190
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 1: see you all in the new year.

1191
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:43,439
Speaker 3: Happy New Year, everybody.

1192
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1193
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia

1194
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 2: dot com, slash Buried Bones Sources.

1195
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:54,680
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1196
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:57,800
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1197
01:02:57,960 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo.

1198
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:02,840
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1199
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1200
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1201
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1202
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

1203
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1204
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1205
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

1206
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's Cold

1207
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:27,919
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now