WEBVTT - Ep. 290: Is Wild Game Really Organic? 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.760 This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:17.680 severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:23.360 You can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:27.920 versatile hunting apparel from Marino Bass layers to technical outerwear 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:37.000 for every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer. This 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.000 is uh, this is on your Instagram, Johnnie, I haven't 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:43.159 posted it yet. You fix it too, Yeah, I was. 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:45.400 I was thinking about it. I will at some point 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:48.159 in the next week, so if listeners were to go 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:50.960 to your thing, they would find it. Yeah, Yanni, really, 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.880 Yanni rehabilitated a did you tell me what you did? Yanni? 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:59.880 You rehabilitated. It's a Reinhardt target I gotta use are 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.320 our buddy Ben O'Brien gave it to me and uh, 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:05.120 just after it was in pretty good shape when he 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.640 gave it to me, but after explain Yeah, it's say 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:13.520 three three dimensional um life size mule deer target. That's 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:19.920 not life size. It is really. Oh yeah, I'm telling 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:22.679 you it is. I mean it's that thing is hard 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.000 to carry if you carry the body and the head 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.240 and the piece of the antlers are attached to his 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.479 ear forehead chunk. It's a lot to carry. It's it's 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:34.920 a big it doesn't this picture makes it look out 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:40.399 of scale anyways, close to life size mule deer three 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:45.920 D target for shooting. You just changed it, yeah, to 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:49.760 make you happy. So I want to hear about it 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.400 here in five more minutes. If you say, well, it's 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:58.880 actually only six which is a mule deer is high. Um. Anyways, 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:01.400 after a couple four years of sitting out in the 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:06.080 Montana sun and weather, at the foam was sorted certaining 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.600 to degrade. So I called up Ryan Hart and she said, oh, yeah, 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:11.920 no problem. This is what you do to bring it 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:14.600 back to life. Take a can of spray paint whatever 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:19.080 color you want to color your three D target, and uh, 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:21.960 you know, repaint it and then take some Thompson's deck 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:25.560 ceiling like water ceiling, paint that over it. And you 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:27.800 should be good to go and do that. You know, 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:30.720 when you see it wearing off, and if you know, 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:32.560 you know the water is not beating on it anymore. 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.120 And uh so I went and got to think a 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.280 can of khaki was the closest I could get to 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:41.520 like the tan colored of a mule deer's body. Already 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.000 had some black and white, and then I got a 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.280 dark walnut because I wanted to as I was he 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:49.480 I don't know what ran Hart was thinking, but when 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.760 I got this buck and had these, the antlers are like, 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.519 I'm guessing they model them after because they're giant. Yeah, 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:58.200 it looks like one of the it looks like one 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:00.800 of those deer that who's that ran looks like one 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:05.440 of those dear Randy. Yeah yeah, yeah, type in Randy 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.960 Almer mule deer. And then this is what this target 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:13.840 is modeled after. Anyways, they're very yellow the antlers, and 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:15.920 I didn't feel like they were very realistic, so I 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.640 went to repaint those because I wanted to protect those two. 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:21.240 I thought, you know, it would be kind of fun 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:25.440 to turn him and turn him into the mythical timber 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.040 buck that Stephen and I heard about when we were 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.519 hunting Colorado together. Dark antler timber buck. Yeah yeah, I 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:35.040 get buck fever looking at you and he's target. Yeah, no, 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:42.520 he's he's intimidating. Um here, friends, it is a high class. 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:46.160 We're camping last weekend and I had my I had 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:49.360 a three D target off in the meadow, you know, 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:51.280 and I mean, there must have been ten times I 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:55.480 come around the corner and kind I couldn't get used 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.960 to that. It was quite the antlers they are. How 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.240 long did that take you? Oh, I don't know. As 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.880 long as it takes the spray Holcanus spray paint. It's pretty, 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.440 it's pretty detailed. So we got a letter. We got 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.240 a letter in. Oh, I'm gonna do it. Oh, I'm 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:19.840 gonna introduce our guests, Fred Gould, Fred, Okay, here's how 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:23.280 this goes. People will remember, people will remember a long 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:25.679 time ago. If you've been, if you follow the show closely, 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:28.960 U Karin, our beloved producer, had one day it was 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.560 kind of spouting off about that fair Phil. Yeah, that's 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.479 a great way to put it. Stopping spouting off. Karin 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:41.640 was spouting off about GMOs genetically modified organism. It was 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:44.600 well intentioned spouting off. She wasn't spouting off. She was 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:48.080 just I don't know what she's doing. God's talking about 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.279 GMO of like taking like arctic char and mixing it 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:55.760 up with strawberries. I don't know. And then and then 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.760 crackted herself a week later, and then corrected herself a 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:03.240 week later. But the emails kept coming. The emails kept coming, 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:04.880 and I said, well, Crim, why don't you go track 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:09.640 down a GMO expert. He's here now, used to live 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:17.640 in a Van University distinguished professor in the Department of 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:24.000 Entomology that's studying bugs and plant pathology at North Carolina 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:28.520 State University and rally right role, I though they're real 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:34.040 particularly and the co director of the Genetic Engineering and 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:39.360 Society Center. You got it. Um, once we get down 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:41.120 with our up top stuff getting an interview, do you 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.240 do you have any idea what we're talking about with 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:47.560 the strawberries and the art at char Yeah, you know, phenomenal, 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.479 genuine vegetarian, used to live in a Van. Self described 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:56.320 former hippie. Krim sent me an article back, did you 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:58.600 did you quit being a hippie? I guess I did, 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:09.320 but like aged out. Um, yeah, that's gonna be a 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:14.200 great conversation. Also, the other thing that inspired uh that 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:16.680 the inspired justus want to have a conversation about GMOs. 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:18.560 And we'll get to this is it's a very popular 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:21.440 thing to have like a shirt or whatever it has 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.160 a deer on it, like a white tailed deer. Who 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:28.720 and white tailed deer? I love people, I mean they like. 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:33.080 They like edge habitats, they like agricultural landscapes, they like 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:38.560 disturbed landscapes. They like areas where the human presence uh 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:44.200 decreases the predator load. Right, they like crows, Canada geese, 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:49.400 what else, white tailed deer, magpies, magpies, just things that 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:56.479 are sort of the winners of the anthrop a scene. Dogs, dogs, 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:02.480 Increasingly coyotes are finding like fuge from persecution in urban 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.800 in the sort of urban suburban landscape. I feel like 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:10.160 increasingly a lot of more animals, especially predators. Yeah, they're 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:11.960 kind of like, you know, these people aren't that bad. 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.920 You're gonna learn how to deal with them. Um. Anyways, 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.520 people like to have a shirt or whatever, stickers and 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.400 stuff they have a deer on it and it'll say 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:25.880 like organic, or they'll have they'll talk about mallard ducks 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:31.040 being organic. And we've we'll ask you about this, we've 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:35.200 talked about increasingly. UM. I would say that if you're 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:39.160 eating a mallard duck in North America in the lower 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:43.800 forty eight, probably not man, probably not right right, They 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.720 are all eaten corn out of a GMO field somewhere, 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.880 soybeans like probably not organic. They probably wouldn't be able 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:53.720 to be certified organic. I don't think so that you probably, 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:55.120 I don't know, you know what, I don't have an 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:57.840 answer for that. I'm not sure. I'm not sure how 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:01.000 how they would certify something like that. But it's a 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.680 high The likelihood is that if you're gonna shoot it yourself, 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.040 nobody's going to care. Yeah, but I mean meaning that 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:12.360 if he's migrating through like if he's migrating from Canada 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:19.360 to coastal Louisiana, UM, and it's utilizing air cultural fields like, 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.840 it has a very high lighthood of stumbling into some 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.120 kind of grain. Well, we need to get to all 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.680 of this because it's really kind of curious. And I 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:30.040 mentioned to you that on the US reserves for a 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.360 long time you weren't able to grow genetically engineered crops. 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:38.000 So if you shoot and a word of four reserve, 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.840 right it was, it would have been non GMO. So 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:46.520 that's that rule is has been changed and it's sort 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:49.440 of filtering down, but it probably will change. Right So 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:53.120 right now, if you want to get your non GMO ducks, 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.160 you know, before we do our some of other stuff 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:57.920 you got, we gotta talk about these jars here of 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.200 bison garam darm. How do you pronounce that? I have 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.160 no idea. That's a good research project. Someone find out 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:05.800 how to pronounce that, so we don't sound stupid. You 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:11.600 mind doing that film? Uh tell real quick? Talk about 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:16.200 those the because you live in North Carolina, um, and 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:20.360 you're talking about the the least corn land. Explain that. Yeah, 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:22.000 So it's an interesting thing because you know, I man, 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.199 you have all these reserves, right, and there's a lot 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:25.680 of water, but there's I have a lot of land 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.120 there and they want to have food for the ducks 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.280 you know that migrate there. And what they've done is 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:35.960 they allow farmers to grow corn on that land, right, 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:37.920 and then they're allowed to harvest most of it, but 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.040 they have to leave some of it behind, so they're 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.440 not paying rent on the land like they would with 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.679 a typical landowner. Right. It's kind of funny cause it 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:49.640 winds up sounding like, um, it's reminiscent of the sharecropper system. Well, 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:55.640 it is exactly, I mean, and they leave that amount 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:59.559 standing and that's for the waterfowl. But you know, there's 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:02.120 all of course, you know, given it it's a federal program, 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.080 they have regulations and they don't want certain pesticides right 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:08.640 that would hurt the aquatic animals and and so on. 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:11.360 So they have regulations on what you're allowed to spray. 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:13.400 And you know, there are a lot of good reasons 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.480 for for having some of those regulations, but some of 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:18.840 the others, you know, have sort of seeped in. And 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:23.600 one of those was about using genetically engineered corn and 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:27.640 so that was prohibited. So that has been prohibited. So 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:30.240 you know, it's a problem for the farmers because some 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:32.840 of the weed problems, for example, are kind of really 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:36.040 tough on those refuges. So you know, they need to 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.000 make a certain amount of profit off that amount that 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.199 they're able to harvest. So you know, it gets a 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.240 little bit tricky, but they have things worked out, but 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:46.760 it will be The farmers would love it if those 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:51.600 regulations were changed. And so during the Trump administration, they 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:54.920 lifted the regulation on they lifted the prohibition, they lifted 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.720 that The argument, you know what the argument for the 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:03.600 foreign against arguments. You know, I wish I could give 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:05.520 you all the rational but I don't think this was 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:07.240 just a rational kind of thing. I think it was 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.040 probably a lot political. But there is some some kind 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:12.880 of rationale because indeed a lot of the crops that 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:17.560 are genetically engineered genetically engineered for herbicide tolerance, right, so 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.679 if you have herbicide tolerance, you can spray more herbicides 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.319 on that. So if there if it's a herbicide that's 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:25.680 not allowed or something like that, that's an issue. But 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:27.880 I think more of it was really just that idea 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.800 of of natural and I thought we could get to 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.360 that because I think more of the GMO thing has 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.640 to do with natural versus this whole thing about safety. 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.520 And I think it's really useful, you know, especially with 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:41.640 your guys. You know, it's it's really interesting to talk 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:43.559 about that. But all I would say is that it 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:46.600 will be great for the farmers, you know, if that changes. 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:49.400 I don't think it's going to harm the refuges, but 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:55.640 duck hunter and duck but presumably there will be more 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:59.360 duck food. I don't think there'll be a big change 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.080 in it. But I think you should tell all your 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:05.680 listeners to will lobby against relaxing that law so that 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.320 they can continue to get organic ducks. This is a 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:12.320 called action. Yeah, this is a call to action. That's bold. 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:17.040 Um you have are you protected in your job. You 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:19.600 talked about, so this is a difference between having a 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:22.760 federal and so you have. I thought you're gonna ask 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:24.640 me if I'm protected from losing my job when I 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:29.079 say things you have? Do you have? What the words 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:34.600 escaping me? When you get immunity from prosecution? What you want? 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:40.040 That's great. You're gonna get the straight story, right, Okay? 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:42.440 Fred hank Ty, you got anything to add in? Add in? 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:45.520 But we have. I didn't know this existed. I got 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:50.560 a package in the mail from Lasiano Culinary School in 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:55.120 the Latian Islands or in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, and the 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.679 guy someone the director of the culinary school there, director 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:02.160 and instructor of culinary arts at Lake Superior State University. 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.160 I didn't know they had that program I went to that. 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:07.440 I'm not quite a lung because I only did a 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:11.280 semester there. I went to three schools before I finished, 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:16.480 like regular college, Skeeing Community College, Lake Superior State University, 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:18.880 Grand Valley State University. I did one semester at Lake 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:22.680 State and had no idea that this exists. That was 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:28.200 one of your brothers. They he runs the program there. 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:33.520 He sent me a beautifully typed letter. And they've been 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:39.720 experimenting with various forms of fermentation, and they have a 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:46.640 they've been making koji mold. But he took this is 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:48.640 this jar in front of you, honest, which looks like 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:50.200 a jar of If I handed that to you with 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:51.880 no label, what would you think you were looking at? 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.760 Oh boy, I mean, it's like the color of molasses. 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.760 But it just it's it's just liquid. Yeah, so sauce, 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:05.400 soy sauce, balsamic vinegar, fish sauce. Maybe. So they've been 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:09.000 they've been dicking around with kogi mold, putting it on 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:13.000 various forms of grain. Okay, the mold itself is sweet 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:17.280 and fruity. They've used it for many things, including toasting 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:21.280 it for salads, making risotto, lacto fermenting it which I 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:25.320 don't know about, making bread pudding. Koji mold is also 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.920 an important greenia for many of the Asian pantry staples, 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.480 such as here I'm in more familiar territory mi so 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:38.480 fish sauce show you, or soy sauce and saki. They 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:44.120 were making it with coffee. Then they took a freshly 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:48.200 slaughtered and ground bison meat. So the meat from a freshly. 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:54.080 I'm trying to say ground bison meat. And they put 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.240 the cog on there which is grown on barley. And 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:02.360 they put the bison meat, kogi, salt and water, place 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:06.120 it in a rice cooker set to warm, and they 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:11.800 skimmed it and stirred it for ten weeks, then strained 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.720 out the solids, which they then dehydrated and made a 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:20.760 bison spice with and jarred it for use. My goodness, 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.080 I feel like maybe we should share one of these 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.280 an auction one of them in the auction House Oddities 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.000 or do you want your own jar? We have two jars. No, 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:33.440 we could share. We could share a jar. Have you 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.960 cracked that open yet? No? Man, just go open the 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:41.000 box right now. This is like, this isn't even in 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.720 the document. I challenge you to find this in the 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:48.560 document and what we're are in what are It's not 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:50.320 in there? Phil, Well, i'll see. Let me save you 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:54.360 the time. It's not in there. That's how freshness is. 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:56.680 H's open a damn thing up? Now? Well? Yeah, I 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:58.440 think we should have a smell and maybe it takes. 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:00.960 I want to save a jar for ther House Oddities 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:08.640 to raise money for our access initiatives. Oh, yeah, you 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:10.600 don't even have to put your nose to it. Here's 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.880 what he says. He says, We've been marinating our bison 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:17.200 backstrap steaks. This is probably making you want to make 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:22.800 Fred friends over there, licking his lips. Yeah, we've been 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.200 marinating our bison backstrap steaks in it for a few 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:31.560 days before we sue, feed and butter base them. It 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:33.800 does a really nice job of breaking down the muscle 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.560 fibers in the steak and tenderizing it. We also use 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:42.640 the sauce as the umami component in a saracho honey 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:47.440 glaze for sashimi salmon. Can anyone hear anybody here? Fred, 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:53.960 you might be Can anybody in Layman's terms, explain O Mommy, Yeah, 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:58.840 let's hear it. Phil tell him it's so it's so 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.200 easy Phil to do it. I was gonna say, it's 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.240 one of those things like the meat. It's the meat sensation. 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:06.960 It's it's like that Supreme Court justice who was asked 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:08.439 to define porn. He just said, I just I know 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:10.840 it when I see it. I feel like that's you, mommy, 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.760 you know when you taste it. I can't describe it. 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:19.159 Don't ask me. Well, this sauce. Definitely is ou Mommy. 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.520 I looked it up at Mariam Webster. I just want 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:24.639 to drink that, like put a little bob or something 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.879 in there. Miriam Webster says. It's the taste sensation that 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:33.840 is produced by several amino acids and nucleotides such as 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:37.399 glutamate and aspirate, and has a rich or meaty flavor. 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:42.000 So you're right, characteristic of cheese, cooked meat, mushrooms, soy 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:49.159 and ripe tomatoes, very very prevalent in Asian cooking. I 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:51.560 feel like they're always talking about, mommy, have you found 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:53.440 out how to pronounce what we're sitting on right now? 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:56.800 I looked it up. I got I got two pronunciations 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:00.000 gear room and ga room. But I think the biggest 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.359 things that that you as an oo sound gar room, 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.760 Like mommy, there you go. Um, So we're gonna put 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.399 a jar of this. Someone's gonna tell us there's like 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:11.639 some kind of legal problem with this. Yeah, That's the 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:13.760 only thing I was thinking is you know, you can't 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.800 auction off food? Why not? I don't know that's what, 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:18.879 but I was thinking there might be a legal issue 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:23.560 with it homemade, you know, not f d A U S. 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:27.920 D A Inspects blah blah blah. I'm gonna I try. 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:30.080 I try to. I try to put in my used 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.280 T shirts with the essence of Yanni because I know 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.600 that some folks like those T shirts. Steve, you know, 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:42.320 they shot me down. Why. They didn't really give an answer. 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:44.800 They just said, I think that's too much. It's like 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:51.520 like like Ralph Nader works here now or something. Uh, 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:53.320 I'm gonna find out a way because I'm also planning 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.359 on auction off my big court jar of python oil 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.879 the auction house. Oddity's real quick is is we're starting 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.080 an auction house and it will all fund access, like 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.520 like we did the Shiloh Pon. We kicked in money 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:09.680 to buy Shilo Pond and Maine to turn it into 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:13.720 public land. Um, we just raised a bunch of money 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:19.879 for UH to support state state level access initiatives like 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.680 state level private land, you know, public hunter private land. 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:30.240 What's the word I'm looking for hunting access? Yeah, issues, um, 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:32.480 other projects. So we're starting to sing in the first 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:34.919 thing when we launched the auction house is it's all 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.680 going to be stuff like gear used on season ten 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:43.520 of our our Netflix show Mediator, like actually used both 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.640 my binal harnesses from that season, my backpack from that season. 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:49.359 We got one of Clay's guns in that season hopefully 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:53.879 the Raccoon hide. All that kind of stuff tanned and 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.440 then we've got paintings, We got crazy stuff. I tell 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:00.000 you that I reached out to our buddy Luke Colmbs 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.720 and he's going to chip in for the auction house audit. No, 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:07.119 but I meant you and forgot. Yeah, he's in North Carolina. 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:08.960 Do you want to hear that? Do you want to 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:14.000 hear the country singer your boys coming in big? What 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:17.040 are you talking about? Luke's coming in big for the 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:21.080 House of Oddities? Is he donating that tour bus? Okay, 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:27.440 not that big, but a signed guitar that he's played 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:31.120 on stage with your kids, along with T shirts from 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:38.320 the tour Signed man. It was one text and he 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:41.439 came back with I am so in here you go 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.120 my favorite from that episode that we film a loop 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:49.120 which is coming out with September. I was explaining him. 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:53.640 I was explaining to Luke how I think pronghorn when 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.400 you smell them like their fur, their hair, I think 0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:00.760 it smells like fried corn chips. It really does. And 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:02.520 I told him, I said, when you smell that thing's 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:04.560 gonna smell like freedo corn chips. And he said, we'll 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:13.280 bust out the bean dud. Uh oh. Two more promo 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:18.280 things we gotta do. So on a previous episode of 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:22.600 the show, we played of our of our random house 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:28.359 audio original, Meat Eater's Close Calls No camp Fire Stories 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:31.040 right meters camp Fire Stories Close Calls, which I should 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:34.239 point out is on its second month on the New 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:40.040 York Times bestseller list. Congratulations for audio originals. We're doing more, like, 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:42.399 we're doing more. Do we get that stamp as a 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.920 company or does that count as like under your sort 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:49.160 of list of author Uh. I would think it would 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:53.120 be where the company would claim it. Nice. Anyways, we're 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:57.000 doing more of those, and so we're looking for your stories. 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:01.800 UM's so camp fire stories. So if you if you're 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:04.520 familiar with the Campfire Stories and you have this camp 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:09.399 Fire Stories audio original Meat Eaters camp Fire Stories close Calls, 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:14.160 and you're like, holy ship, those boys should know about X. 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:17.040 Send that to you camp Fire Stories at the meat 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:24.760 Eater dot com. Um. Savannah, my beloved partner that work 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:27.440 on all this with and Brody, Savannah was saying, if 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:29.680 you want, you can give shout outs to folks who 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:33.880 sent in their dad's stories and tell them we want more. 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:38.400 She said, we have an overwhelming number from veterans, like 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:42.280 she's glad we have so many stories from veterans, and 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:46.399 a lot of stories about people's dads. And she said, uh, 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:50.240 the old sweet dads give me life. And she said, 0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:55.000 it's also funny how everyone's subject line is crazy ass story, 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:56.480 which I think we might have said to use that, 0:22:56.600 --> 0:23:00.919 don't we. Yeah, so keep them calm and as well. 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:03.640 It kind of defeats the purpose when everyone is saying 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:06.600 craziest stories. It kind of it loses its effect when 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:10.680 everyone's using it. Do you get what I'm saying. It's 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:13.159 like if you asked my kids if something was epic, 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:19.720 like they go down the little five ft hill in 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:24.560 the yard and it was a sled rug. Yeah. The 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:26.119 other thing we're working on and we I don't know 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:29.000 how many we have, but we need a lot more. 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:34.560 Um keep sending in the keep sending your submissions to 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:38.439 fund up Old Deer stands because I'm still pushing. Like 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:44.760 now with the success of the calendar, tremendous success. Now 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:46.439 no one can stand in the way of making it 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:49.919 a fine art coffee table book. I'm proud of you. 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:55.160 No one can stand in my way. I told Ross 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:59.320 he'd have he'd encounter zero resistance on that project going forward. 0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:03.480 So send your pictures of crazy old deer stands two 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:06.240 funked up old deer stands at the media dot com. 0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:09.600 We've gotten over. I don't know. That was a long 0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:12.879 time ago there, Now what that's a lot of pictures 0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:20.680 to look through. Seflixom he listens so like Walleye podcasts 0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:27.000 and this is the poet draws the salary dream job. 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:30.119 I was gonna say, kee paying him for this, Like 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:32.560 I feel like I should be paying you guys. Um. 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:39.320 A surgeon wrote in saying that he had a this 0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:43.440 comes off. We were talking about a cannibalism article that 0:24:43.560 --> 0:24:46.520 was in vice of a guy that had, like I 0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:48.600 can't remember why, he had an amputation and then had 0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:51.760 a party and made tacos and like his friends came 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:55.639 over ate his arm foot right foot? Is that what 0:24:55.720 --> 0:25:01.080 it was was advice? Uh? A surgeon rode in and 0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:02.960 he had to go through a deal he had with 0:25:03.119 --> 0:25:06.040 a guy. He gave a hip replacement too, and the 0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:10.399 guy really wanted his ball joint back, So the doctor 0:25:12.000 --> 0:25:15.639 had humored him and went through a lengthy process of 0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:20.560 getting it checked out for hospital for the legality. Then 0:25:20.680 --> 0:25:23.880 she got it squared away, gave the guy his ball 0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:26.159 joint back and asked what he was gonna do with it, 0:25:26.920 --> 0:25:29.640 and he couldn't decide between turning it into the handle 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:32.760 on a gun cleaning rod or the shifter for his truck. 0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:42.200 That's a redneck move right there. Toxo plasmosis, which we 0:25:42.320 --> 0:25:44.000 spent a lot of time on. Who oh, yeah, we 0:25:44.080 --> 0:25:46.199 had a do we have a yeah, we had an 0:25:46.240 --> 0:25:49.720 expert on for that. Toxo plasmosis. Did you ever hear that? Fred, 0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:55.760 I've heard of it. It's like bacterial infection that's passed 0:25:55.760 --> 0:26:03.000 through feline feces. And there's this interesting I was skeptic, 0:26:03.080 --> 0:26:06.439 but I've I've become not a skeptic. Telling my favorite 0:26:06.480 --> 0:26:12.920 quote of all time, Johnnie, Skepticism is the chastity of 0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:16.480 the intellect. I was telling my kids that there, and 0:26:16.560 --> 0:26:21.480 I try to explain after them, trying to teach six 0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:26.480 every night at dinner. There tell me something that some 0:26:26.560 --> 0:26:28.960 guy at school told him, some kids school, something like no, 0:26:29.480 --> 0:26:33.639 just no, it's like not, he's not telling the truth. 0:26:34.520 --> 0:26:36.760 Oh right, your kids are back in school already, so 0:26:36.880 --> 0:26:41.119 I started, Oh yeah, just the strachers. Joe was so 0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:45.080 and So's dad got a checked by a grizzly. I 0:26:45.119 --> 0:26:46.920 feel like I would have heard about them, man, you know. 0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:53.800 Um uh. Anyways, this is weird thing where it seems 0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:55.760 and there's like some research out of Africa that like 0:26:57.119 --> 0:27:02.960 toxoplasmosis is transmitted like the whole is through feelines. Even 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:06.880 herbivores get it from just like grazing close to cat excrement. 0:27:07.280 --> 0:27:12.639 But it seems that an animal um infected with toxoplasmosis 0:27:12.960 --> 0:27:19.120 loses its fear of feelines reduced inhibitions. And I don't 0:27:19.160 --> 0:27:22.240 know if it's just reduced inhibitions or reduced inhibitions of feelines. 0:27:22.280 --> 0:27:24.520 But for instance, they were looking at what was that 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:29.080 animal that the what's the like the thing that everybody 0:27:29.080 --> 0:27:31.720 in Africa's lie is mad at all times? It was 0:27:31.760 --> 0:27:34.399 in Africa. It wasn't a dingo dog. No no, no, no. 0:27:37.400 --> 0:27:42.159 That they're looking at like of hyena pops that are 0:27:42.240 --> 0:27:46.000 infected with toxoplasmosis that they track get killed by lions, 0:27:47.040 --> 0:27:49.760 ones that aren't infected. It's a very low percentage, but 0:27:49.960 --> 0:27:52.240 they did. There's a study in this journal that someone 0:27:52.320 --> 0:27:59.920 sent us um that risky business linking toxoplasma in fact 0:28:00.359 --> 0:28:08.840 and entrepreneurship behaviors across individuals and countries. WHOA, you lose 0:28:08.920 --> 0:28:17.040 your inhibitions, you become more entrepreneurial when uh not in fact? Yeah? 0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:21.440 When in fact with the toxic plasmosis. Yeah, well that's cool. 0:28:21.480 --> 0:28:22.719 I mean, you know, I mean there are a lot 0:28:22.760 --> 0:28:25.720 of these cases with plants, right that they have compounds 0:28:25.800 --> 0:28:28.000 in them that when a herbivore eats them, all right, 0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:30.760 they get a little bit of hallucinogenic kind of effect 0:28:30.840 --> 0:28:35.719 and they're happy and hang out. Well, oh he does 0:28:35.800 --> 0:28:38.120 want to get eaten to have his seed spread. No, 0:28:38.320 --> 0:28:41.920 he wants if if you're eating the plant and you 0:28:42.440 --> 0:28:46.360 lose your inhibitions and some carnivore comes in, that's what's 0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:49.640 pretty good for the plant. So you know, I told 0:28:49.680 --> 0:28:51.800 you I was a hippie, but I mean, you like, 0:28:53.280 --> 0:28:56.440 but the thing about it, right, hippie is just hanging out. 0:28:57.360 --> 0:29:03.160 Do we have that here in North America's prayer? Does 0:29:03.240 --> 0:29:06.840 that happen in North America? Yeah? Well I'm trying to think. 0:29:06.920 --> 0:29:13.040 I mean, you know psilocybina. That's pretty much rooms, right, 0:29:13.360 --> 0:29:16.600 I'm gonna read the first line of the abstract discipline 0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:19.680 such as business and economics often rely on the assumption 0:29:19.800 --> 0:29:25.760 of rationality when explaining complex human behaviors. However, growing evidence 0:29:25.840 --> 0:29:32.280 suggests that behavior may concurrently be influenced by infectious micro 0:29:32.880 --> 0:29:38.920 organisms toxico plasma infects and estimated man, how can this 0:29:39.000 --> 0:29:44.280 be true? Two billion people worldwide and has been linked 0:29:44.320 --> 0:29:48.320 to behavioral alterations in humans and other vertebrates. Are a 0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:52.120 quarter of the world's population? Is that correct? Seven billion 0:29:52.160 --> 0:29:56.440 people on the planet. Uh? You know Rick Smith's I 0:29:56.560 --> 0:29:59.800 know that number always because when someone's saying like, someone 0:29:59.800 --> 0:30:02.680 will mentioned like someone doing some crazy thing and people 0:30:02.760 --> 0:30:05.160 be like no, and Brick'll be like, there's seven billion 0:30:05.240 --> 0:30:09.959 people on the planet. Of course someone's into that. Mhm Um, 0:30:11.920 --> 0:30:14.600 that's really interesting. If you want to get, like your 0:30:14.680 --> 0:30:18.680 spouse onto on board with an idea that they can't 0:30:18.720 --> 0:30:21.239 get on board with. They think it's risky her hang 0:30:21.280 --> 0:30:23.800 out by the literal to get a little go over 0:30:23.800 --> 0:30:27.880 to the old litter box. Um, this is a great story. 0:30:28.840 --> 0:30:32.600 This is a this is legitimately fascinating story right here. Um, 0:30:34.640 --> 0:30:37.840 there's a research real quick though. It's not only a correction, 0:30:38.000 --> 0:30:42.320 but in twenty nineteen, we're up to seven point six billion, 0:30:43.080 --> 0:30:45.800 so you might as well just start saying eight. I'll 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:51.959 switch round it up. We're getting there, Fred, This right 0:30:52.120 --> 0:30:56.720 is gonna tickle your fancy all right. Um I I 0:30:57.000 --> 0:30:59.960 know of this gentleman because my my brother in Alaska 0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:04.000 actually studied under him. Uh. There's a research named Matthew 0:31:04.080 --> 0:31:10.080 Wooler who interestingly, Matthew Wooler, who is doing work on 0:31:10.160 --> 0:31:16.440 woolly mammoth's at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks. So this, 0:31:16.720 --> 0:31:21.920 this is interesting, This is good to look at. This 0:31:22.040 --> 0:31:25.560 guy focuses on stabile isotopes and he's looking at the 0:31:25.600 --> 0:31:33.320 isotope strontium. Might pronounce that right, straw stum. Now, strontium 0:31:33.480 --> 0:31:36.920 is is like a stable isotope that occurs and soils 0:31:36.960 --> 0:31:40.760 and comes from from the natural ground. Okay, And it's 0:31:41.000 --> 0:31:44.120 like the vegetation regimes change, but that stays the same. 0:31:45.240 --> 0:31:48.720 And it's one of these isotopes that varies across the landscape. 0:31:49.440 --> 0:31:54.120 But over time, right, the climate might change, vegetation regime change, 0:31:54.560 --> 0:31:59.160 animals change, it doesn't change, and it's in varying in 0:31:59.720 --> 0:32:04.560 uh densities across the landscape. So this guy first, these 0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:06.880 guys went and they were looking at some kind of 0:32:06.960 --> 0:32:11.160 shrew I think is it in here? They were looking 0:32:11.200 --> 0:32:12.720 at some kind of vol or shrew, and they were 0:32:12.800 --> 0:32:16.200 taking the teeth out of voles and shrews that are 0:32:16.240 --> 0:32:20.000 widely distributed across northern Alaska, and they have a very 0:32:20.080 --> 0:32:23.160 small home range. So when you catch one and take 0:32:23.200 --> 0:32:27.840 his tooth out the strontium, the stabile isotope in the soil, 0:32:29.800 --> 0:32:33.200 is grows into its teeth and he doesn't stray fire. 0:32:33.720 --> 0:32:35.360 So when you catch one, you can assume that he's 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:37.720 always been in some tight little spot, and so you 0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:41.320 can look at how this isotope is taken up in 0:32:41.520 --> 0:32:46.680 this guy's tooth, and his tooth continuously grows right. So 0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:51.120 you can then measure that like the level of the tooth, 0:32:51.920 --> 0:32:54.040 and you can make a map of how much of 0:32:54.120 --> 0:32:58.720 this stuff exists across the landscape and various areas. They then, 0:33:00.160 --> 0:33:02.480 how do you feel about my explanation? That sounds great? 0:33:02.760 --> 0:33:06.520 Don't you don't want to repair it in anyway? They 0:33:06.560 --> 0:33:10.120 get a tusk off of mammoth. It's a big gas 0:33:10.280 --> 0:33:16.320 tusk um and they take that mammoth tusk and rip 0:33:16.360 --> 0:33:19.480 it in a band saw all the way around, so 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:21.560 they like run it through a bandsaw, and they have 0:33:21.640 --> 0:33:25.520 this big, curly split tusk. And apparently this is the 0:33:25.560 --> 0:33:28.640 same thing on sheep horns too. When you cut it 0:33:28.720 --> 0:33:32.560 and look at it in profile, as it grows, it 0:33:32.600 --> 0:33:36.000 grows in what looks like stacked ice cream cones, and 0:33:36.080 --> 0:33:38.320 it's very clear on the inside, but on the outside 0:33:38.360 --> 0:33:42.280 that the differences get they get smoothed over from you, 0:33:42.440 --> 0:33:44.360 so you can't tell. But when you cut it looks 0:33:44.400 --> 0:33:47.800 like stacked ice cream cones. Where he's continuously putting out 0:33:48.840 --> 0:33:52.680 new tusk. So these things whatever, they get like an 0:33:52.720 --> 0:33:54.720 eight nine ft tusk over the course of the life 0:33:54.960 --> 0:33:57.120 this mammoth, their tusks they're looking at with him, he's 0:33:57.120 --> 0:34:01.200 a twenty eight year old mammoth. When he's a little 0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:04.040 baby sucking on his mother's milk, that's like the very 0:34:04.080 --> 0:34:08.080 tip of his tusk, and that grows out. And then 0:34:08.719 --> 0:34:11.520 when he's twenty eight years old, what's going on with 0:34:11.680 --> 0:34:17.239 his tusk is like emerging from his jaw. Then they 0:34:17.280 --> 0:34:20.400 can take and look at because they put together this 0:34:20.560 --> 0:34:23.719 map of this stable isotope and the soil and then 0:34:23.760 --> 0:34:27.640 they can take and look as he grew, where was 0:34:27.680 --> 0:34:31.680 he living and this thing. You look at the map 0:34:31.880 --> 0:34:36.920 they published, it's in it's in the journal Science. You 0:34:36.960 --> 0:34:39.200 look at the map they published the detail of how 0:34:39.360 --> 0:34:42.120 this thing spent the years of its life. It is incredible. 0:34:44.120 --> 0:34:46.960 It was born and raised and spent like its adolescents 0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:50.840 south of the Brooks Range when it hits around the 0:34:50.920 --> 0:34:53.520 time it was fourteen, I think they hit sexual maturity. 0:34:54.920 --> 0:34:59.600 He migrated up through a pass to the north side 0:34:59.640 --> 0:35:03.800 of the b Range and then later made another migration 0:35:03.880 --> 0:35:07.560 near the Colville River. He it seems like he walked 0:35:07.680 --> 0:35:11.080 enough to have traveled around the Earth twice in his 0:35:11.200 --> 0:35:17.040 migrations and then died of starvation along the Coalville. And 0:35:17.120 --> 0:35:20.040 they can tell he died of starvation because his diet 0:35:20.239 --> 0:35:23.000 changed to just like to look like a carnivore. And 0:35:23.080 --> 0:35:25.040 it was when he was he somehow it had an injury, 0:35:25.080 --> 0:35:30.040 couldn't eat anymore, it seems, and just self digested and 0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:32.719 was taking in no vegetation and that's where he died. 0:35:32.760 --> 0:35:37.200 It's an incredible map. Was the map in the male 0:35:38.600 --> 0:35:41.560 was Matt Beth Shapiro who's been on this show. It 0:35:41.760 --> 0:35:46.200 was her lab that determined some of the some of 0:35:46.239 --> 0:35:50.840 the demographics about the animal years old, seventeen thousand, one 0:35:51.360 --> 0:35:55.680 years ago, a male mammoth. You look at the Smithsonian 0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:59.120 link or the the Science link. I read about it 0:35:59.239 --> 0:36:03.200 in Science. So you had to pay to get access 0:36:03.239 --> 0:36:05.200 to the whole thing. No, someone sent me one of 0:36:05.239 --> 0:36:10.239 those J store or whatever links. I'd show you the map, Fred, 0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:14.680 but I don't know. I've seen that. It's an incredible 0:36:14.719 --> 0:36:18.239 bit of work, man, excellent, very cool piece of work. 0:36:20.800 --> 0:36:22.919 So I guess you talked to Beth about bringing back 0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:26.279 that mammoth. She's great. We're trying to get her back 0:36:26.320 --> 0:36:29.799 on the show. One more thing, Fred, and we're gonna 0:36:31.200 --> 0:36:35.359 one extremely quick. One's extremely quick. Hey, whatever, this is fun. 0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:37.880 Guy wrote it about why do you trapp Why do 0:36:38.000 --> 0:36:40.480 conna bears have the desert the size destination they have. 0:36:40.920 --> 0:36:43.560 I called some experts. No one knows. So conna bears 0:36:43.600 --> 0:36:46.279 like generally like traditionally, conna bears are coming like one tent. 0:36:46.360 --> 0:36:51.160 Everybody knows one ten body gripping traps. I called a 0:36:51.200 --> 0:36:53.440 trap expert. I call him Joe Beaver, but his name 0:36:53.480 --> 0:36:56.319 is Mike. Uh. He said, I have no idea, man, 0:36:56.400 --> 0:36:59.320 he goes it's a very confused system. It's like a 0:36:59.400 --> 0:37:01.239 one ten n a bear has a four inch jaw 0:37:01.320 --> 0:37:05.040 spread unless you buy a blile one ten, which is 0:37:05.080 --> 0:37:09.000 a four point five inch straw spread. Now if you 0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:11.359 can't say it, so, a one ten zero has one 0:37:11.440 --> 0:37:13.800 spring and a four inch spread, A one two zero 0:37:14.880 --> 0:37:18.520 has two springs four inch spread. And there's a one 0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:22.680 fifty with a five inch spread, one sixty with a 0:37:22.719 --> 0:37:24.720 six in spread. So at this point you're thinking like, okay, 0:37:24.800 --> 0:37:28.520 one five five inch spread, one six zero six in spread. 0:37:28.560 --> 0:37:30.880 Well that goes to hell when you hit a two 0:37:31.000 --> 0:37:34.759 twenty which has a seven inch spread, to eighty at 0:37:34.920 --> 0:37:38.200 eight three thirty at a ten, he's like, there's no rhymer. 0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:42.439 It doesn't mean anything. If anyone has corrected this, it's 0:37:43.280 --> 0:37:47.040 Minnesota Brand traps. They launched a trap called them m 0:37:47.160 --> 0:37:53.479 B twelve sixteen j C. And that's like a rifle 0:37:53.520 --> 0:37:57.160 caliber because it actually means something, m B Minnesota Brand 0:37:57.560 --> 0:38:01.480 twelve sixteen. It's twelve by sixteen j C. It was 0:38:01.560 --> 0:38:07.000 invented by John Kratty of Michigan. So you got a 0:38:07.040 --> 0:38:10.760 couple of those, don't you. So in short for your answer, 0:38:10.840 --> 0:38:13.400 the best I can tell in my casual research that 0:38:13.880 --> 0:38:16.080 I don't know. No one knows what the hell it means. 0:38:18.280 --> 0:38:21.880 It's like one of small three is big to his 0:38:21.960 --> 0:38:26.160 medium enough. Yeah, I was trying to find something on it. 0:38:26.920 --> 0:38:29.040 I was looking all over the place, couldn't find anything. 0:38:30.320 --> 0:38:33.279 A guy from East Texas wrote in He's conflicted about 0:38:33.320 --> 0:38:36.600 the use of orange plastic trailmarking tape surveyors tape that 0:38:36.719 --> 0:38:38.759 hunters used to navigate their way to and from their 0:38:38.800 --> 0:38:42.800 hunting areas. This is he says, On one hand, I 0:38:42.880 --> 0:38:45.440 understand that everyone has the means to purchase a GPS 0:38:45.520 --> 0:38:49.000 or even a smartphone to utilize mapping apps that have 0:38:49.080 --> 0:38:51.640 become so accessible. On the other hand, I hate walking 0:38:51.719 --> 0:38:54.040 through the woods and seeing orange flag and tape littered 0:38:54.120 --> 0:38:58.640 all throughout. Some of it's been there for years. Something 0:38:58.719 --> 0:39:00.799 looks like it was just put up, he says. When 0:39:00.840 --> 0:39:03.399 I see it, I put in my pocket and throw 0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:06.560 in the garbage. Am I bad? Am I doing my 0:39:06.640 --> 0:39:10.319 fellow hunters wrong? I pick up every scrap I see. 0:39:10.480 --> 0:39:13.680 I do the same thing, Josh. I've left a lot 0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:15.920 of it throughout my life because we used to mark 0:39:16.000 --> 0:39:20.359 blood trails with it. Um not go back and pick 0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:24.440 it up whatever, you're lazy. Most of it's plastic, right man, 0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:27.279 It's just plastic, orange svarrious tapes. I hate seeing. It's 0:39:27.280 --> 0:39:29.359 not okay to leave plastic in the woods. I hate 0:39:29.360 --> 0:39:32.120 seeing it. Always go grab it much if you're using 0:39:32.160 --> 0:39:34.200 it to mark ways in. I think a much more 0:39:35.200 --> 0:39:37.200 a nicer spot is just get those little glow in 0:39:37.200 --> 0:39:39.400 the dark thumb tacks. You can see it in the daylight. 0:39:40.200 --> 0:39:42.319 At night, your flashlight hits it. We used to use 0:39:42.360 --> 0:39:44.959 those to get into duck spots. Just stick thumb tacks 0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:47.239 and trees. We used to also walked through was a 0:39:47.280 --> 0:39:50.520 a machette and blaze all the trees. That was common practice. 0:39:52.040 --> 0:39:53.920 Just being dumb. But yeah, I've hung a lot of 0:39:53.960 --> 0:40:00.279 that tape. I don't like it. This guy be other 0:40:00.360 --> 0:40:08.759 ways well, obviously on X tracking function is definitely the easiest. Yeah, 0:40:08.800 --> 0:40:10.880 but he's trying to be he's trying to be compassionate 0:40:11.680 --> 0:40:14.719 and empathetic. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know acknowledging. 0:40:14.800 --> 0:40:17.719 Maybe not everyone has. Sure you got like a roll 0:40:17.719 --> 0:40:21.680 of surveyors tape laying around. I can't like, you know, 0:40:22.560 --> 0:40:24.200 I can't blame someone for using it, but I just 0:40:24.280 --> 0:40:26.800 think you should when you're done. Grab But yeah, exactly, 0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:40.480 you're done grab all right? Fred? You're queens, Yeah, New 0:40:40.560 --> 0:40:46.120 York City. Yeah, you began your career. Explain this studying 0:40:46.440 --> 0:40:52.239 spider might evolution. Yeah, and insecticide resistance? Is that a 0:40:52.280 --> 0:40:54.279 good avenue into this or what's the best avenue to 0:40:54.280 --> 0:40:57.759 get into your work? Well, that's not a bad one 0:40:58.320 --> 0:41:00.839 to get into how to get into the ems? Yeah, 0:41:01.480 --> 0:41:03.279 So I'll tell you, you know, the way I got 0:41:03.360 --> 0:41:06.040 into this whole thing is through that work and spider mites. 0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:10.839 So the thing is is that you know, plants are 0:41:10.840 --> 0:41:14.040 attacked by herbivores, right, and spider mites are one of them. 0:41:14.080 --> 0:41:15.920 Spider mites are actually you know, I think you know 0:41:16.080 --> 0:41:19.640 that it's really tiny, right, like aphids and such. A 0:41:19.680 --> 0:41:23.640 really tiny big caterpillar is different, right, A single spider 0:41:23.719 --> 0:41:28.239 night they're attacked by the spider mites attack plants, all right. 0:41:28.320 --> 0:41:31.279 So the spider mites feed on lots of crops. And 0:41:31.320 --> 0:41:33.400 as a matter of fact, spider mites, a single spider 0:41:33.480 --> 0:41:36.920 mite species one called a two spotted spider mite attacks 0:41:37.080 --> 0:41:40.840 plants in your house and attacks crops like corn or soybeans. 0:41:40.880 --> 0:41:43.600 And it's not an ai it's not an a it's 0:41:43.600 --> 0:41:47.640 actually not even an insect has it has eight legs. 0:41:48.440 --> 0:41:51.520 But the important thing is that it attacks these crops 0:41:51.640 --> 0:41:55.440 and plant breeders, today's plant breeders try to breed their 0:41:55.480 --> 0:41:58.480 crops so that to be resistant to the attack of 0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:00.560 the spider mite. All right, so they wouldn't have to 0:42:00.600 --> 0:42:05.240 spray insecticide or carraside as it would be. So what's 0:42:05.440 --> 0:42:11.759 interesting carrasite is because erachnant, right, so as opposed to insects. Um, 0:42:12.040 --> 0:42:14.680 So what is the what is the base word you using? 0:42:15.360 --> 0:42:17.160 Like insecticide? I get it, it's like a thing that 0:42:17.280 --> 0:42:20.520 kills insects, But what is the word a caraside? But 0:42:20.600 --> 0:42:25.400 what is the cas a caraside? That must be my 0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:34.560 leftover queen's act. I don't know. Yeah, you're saying, like right, yeah, right, 0:42:36.320 --> 0:42:39.320 So in any event that you know, breeders breed that 0:42:39.360 --> 0:42:41.120 into their plants. I do this all the time for 0:42:41.280 --> 0:42:43.960 pathogens as well. You know fungi that you know that 0:42:44.239 --> 0:42:48.920 caused the Irish potato famine. Right, breeders will breed potatoes 0:42:49.000 --> 0:42:51.600 so that they won't be attacked by that fungus. Right. 0:42:51.760 --> 0:42:54.880 The problem is that these are living organisms and they evolve, 0:42:55.440 --> 0:42:58.800 and so those spider mites evolve to become able to 0:42:58.960 --> 0:43:02.959 feed on those crops that the breeder so carefully bred 0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:05.960 to be resistant to them. Let's spider mites are interesting. 0:43:05.960 --> 0:43:09.200 All right. Let me just say this. I worked on cucumbers. Right. 0:43:09.560 --> 0:43:15.960 Have you ever eaten a cucumber and the peel is bitter? Listen? Yesterday, 0:43:16.360 --> 0:43:19.839 Oh I had I left one of my garden too long. 0:43:20.000 --> 0:43:22.640 My daughter. My daughter was like not into it and 0:43:22.760 --> 0:43:26.960 wanted me to peel it. Right, yeah, Okay, that's due 0:43:27.040 --> 0:43:32.760 to cucurbitations. See right, it's a compound. It's a terpenoid compound, 0:43:32.880 --> 0:43:35.879 doesn't doesn't really matter, but it's a chemical, right, it's 0:43:35.880 --> 0:43:41.040 a chemical that is making that cucumber toxic to those 0:43:41.040 --> 0:43:45.040 spider mites. Yeah. So for my thesis, well, that's what 0:43:45.160 --> 0:43:47.320 makes it. That's what that bitterness when you well, so 0:43:47.440 --> 0:43:51.279 this is the right. So, but the thing is that 0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:54.239 that cucurbitation is in the leaves as well, So the 0:43:54.280 --> 0:43:56.359 spider might speed on the leaves. So if you want 0:43:56.400 --> 0:43:58.640 to protect them, that would be that's a great resistant 0:43:58.920 --> 0:44:02.719 cucumber variety. So for my thesis, the question was, wait, 0:44:02.840 --> 0:44:04.600 you're gonna put all these years and it could take 0:44:04.680 --> 0:44:07.839 ten years to breathe these cucumbers to be resistant. Well, 0:44:07.920 --> 0:44:09.880 I looked at those spider mines. They have a generation 0:44:10.040 --> 0:44:12.480 every week or two a right, how long is it 0:44:12.480 --> 0:44:15.840 gonna take them to become adapted to it? And I 0:44:15.960 --> 0:44:18.160 did experiments in my thesis and show that they could 0:44:18.160 --> 0:44:23.319 become adapted to that toxin and then you know, then 0:44:23.360 --> 0:44:28.560 you wouldn't have any utility to that cucumber. But okay, 0:44:30.440 --> 0:44:32.280 I'm just trying to be I'm trying to be considered 0:44:32.320 --> 0:44:39.680 of people tracking along talk about by what mechanism they 0:44:39.760 --> 0:44:43.520 become adapted to explain that, Like they're having many offspring 0:44:43.719 --> 0:44:48.320 that are all a little different. Yeah, okay, So spider 0:44:48.360 --> 0:44:51.799 mines like human beings, right, we're all different, right, blue eyes, 0:44:51.920 --> 0:44:55.200 brown eyes, whatever. We have genes that control that. So 0:44:55.320 --> 0:44:58.319 with spider mites, they have genes that differ in terms 0:44:58.400 --> 0:45:02.160 of the metabolism of that itider mite and spider mans 0:45:02.200 --> 0:45:05.680 have evolved over millions of years, right to feed on plants, 0:45:06.040 --> 0:45:08.479 so they've always had to be dealing with toxins before 0:45:08.600 --> 0:45:12.480 humans existed. Right that plants are always producing toxins to 0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:14.560 kill off the things that feed on them. It just 0:45:14.719 --> 0:45:17.520 makes sense. That's why you have all these spices right 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:21.680 in the grocery store. Then plants did not make spices 0:45:21.760 --> 0:45:26.160 for you. They made it to protect themselves or and 0:45:26.360 --> 0:45:28.680 and some other things, but mainly to protect themselves right 0:45:28.880 --> 0:45:36.960 against uh, either insects or mammals or against um, you know, pathogens. 0:45:37.280 --> 0:45:41.239 Imagine how helpful capskin is, right, you know how many 0:45:41.280 --> 0:45:43.120 things are gonna want to eat? How many wild animals 0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:46.480 are gone into a haberdactly? Right? And then of course 0:45:46.560 --> 0:45:48.800 you have insects that have adapted to a certain plant 0:45:49.239 --> 0:45:52.200 and they sequester that company. They put that compound into 0:45:52.280 --> 0:45:55.239 their bodies like a monarch butterfly does. Right. They take 0:45:55.440 --> 0:45:57.880 from the milkweed that they feed on, they take the 0:45:57.960 --> 0:46:02.320 cardenoloids that obviously cardiac effects, and they put them in 0:46:02.360 --> 0:46:04.600 their body. So when a bird feeds on them in 0:46:04.680 --> 0:46:08.279 Mexico where they all migrate, they would spit them out. 0:46:08.640 --> 0:46:10.960 Of course, there are birds that have adapted to be 0:46:11.080 --> 0:46:14.080 able to deal with that toxin as well. But anyway, 0:46:14.080 --> 0:46:17.920 it's a whole coevolution, right of the plants and the 0:46:18.000 --> 0:46:20.680 insects that I studied when I was in graduate school. 0:46:20.960 --> 0:46:24.640 But the whole idea is for have applied implications, right, 0:46:25.040 --> 0:46:27.279 so that you know, how could you have a sustainable 0:46:27.320 --> 0:46:30.960 agricultural system where you use less insecticide and the plants 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:35.200 protected themselves. So that's what I was studying, going about 0:46:35.239 --> 0:46:39.480 by business, and some people cared about it. Most people 0:46:39.600 --> 0:46:43.040 didn't write, but it was an important thing for sustainable agriculture, right, 0:46:43.239 --> 0:46:45.239 I mean at the big level. Two. I mean, you know, 0:46:45.560 --> 0:46:47.719 we were having a real problem with wheat with the 0:46:47.800 --> 0:46:51.359 hessian fly, right, would adapt so quickly to every time 0:46:51.600 --> 0:46:53.600 in the Midwest. So they put out a new variety 0:46:53.640 --> 0:46:56.000 of wheat that was resistant to this hession fly. That 0:46:56.080 --> 0:47:00.400 really is problematic. It would last for four years or so, 0:47:00.480 --> 0:47:02.319 and then the hessian fly would adapt to it. Well 0:47:02.400 --> 0:47:04.880 that's not sustainable, right, you gotta So that's what I 0:47:04.960 --> 0:47:10.200 was studying because because the ultimate goal is it's like 0:47:10.360 --> 0:47:13.200 the ultimate goal is too pronged. It's continue to produce 0:47:13.239 --> 0:47:19.120 food to feed people, and to reduce how much chemical 0:47:19.160 --> 0:47:21.640 you need to spray, right, Yeah, And and to get 0:47:21.640 --> 0:47:24.080 back to your question of what what happened there was 0:47:24.160 --> 0:47:27.520 that some of the mites had different metabolic pathways than others, 0:47:27.600 --> 0:47:30.760 just as in the same way that our digestive systems 0:47:30.760 --> 0:47:33.719 are different one human to another, and those that were 0:47:33.760 --> 0:47:37.919 able to deal with that cucurbitation, that compound that stays 0:47:38.000 --> 0:47:40.560 so bitter to you, we're able to survive. And the 0:47:40.640 --> 0:47:43.080 ones that didn't die it off. So over time the 0:47:43.120 --> 0:47:47.239 population shifted from the majority of dying because they were 0:47:47.440 --> 0:47:50.000 when they feed on a cucommer plant to the end 0:47:50.120 --> 0:47:52.960 the majority of them survived and did just fine because 0:47:52.960 --> 0:47:55.279 they had the enzymes or whatever it took to deal 0:47:55.360 --> 0:47:58.200 with that c curbutation. I think a good way here. 0:47:58.640 --> 0:48:00.040 I want you to explain this whe you correct me 0:48:00.320 --> 0:48:02.680 if it just doesn't work for people. I'm just trying 0:48:02.680 --> 0:48:07.000 to put in human terms, um a human but no, no, no, 0:48:07.000 --> 0:48:09.520 I don't mean I'd just be like terms not might, 0:48:10.280 --> 0:48:15.280 but check me out on it, right, Uh. I imagine 0:48:15.320 --> 0:48:17.440 most people will accept the idea. There's a thing called 0:48:17.480 --> 0:48:22.400 celiac disease. Okay, wee allergy. Imagine we were living in 0:48:22.480 --> 0:48:27.120 an environment where all we ate was wheat. Um something 0:48:27.200 --> 0:48:31.160 switches and only humans only eat wheat. Now you would 0:48:31.200 --> 0:48:33.880 find in the future that you had run out of 0:48:34.600 --> 0:48:38.680 people with Celiac disease, and you would have uh, there 0:48:38.680 --> 0:48:41.960 would be a strong selective pressure against people that had 0:48:42.040 --> 0:48:44.680 Celiac disease, and you could envision the future in which 0:48:45.480 --> 0:48:51.759 that had gone away. That would be us evolving, right, Yeah, 0:48:52.040 --> 0:48:53.719 and in the same way we're talking about. Yeah, and 0:48:53.840 --> 0:48:56.839 of course, you know, think about people who are lactose intolerant. Right, 0:48:57.120 --> 0:49:00.439 A lot of cultures Almost everybody is lactose intolerant once 0:49:00.480 --> 0:49:02.680 they are adults. Right, when you're young, you need to 0:49:02.719 --> 0:49:05.760 be able to deal with your mother's milk. But unless 0:49:05.800 --> 0:49:09.480 you're a milk drinking culture, you lose that. So certain 0:49:09.880 --> 0:49:12.840 groups in Africa that use milk, and certain groups in 0:49:12.920 --> 0:49:15.839 Europe that use milk have those genes, but in other 0:49:15.880 --> 0:49:27.719 places you don't because that wasn't adaptive to have, right. 0:49:27.920 --> 0:49:30.440 So the story, right, So I'm just working on my way, 0:49:30.480 --> 0:49:33.600 but then all of a sudden people develop these genetically 0:49:33.640 --> 0:49:38.200 engineered crops, right, and all of a sudden, well that 0:49:38.920 --> 0:49:48.640 brown okay really yeah, it was earlier later, Okay, So 0:49:48.680 --> 0:49:51.040 we're gonna have to get into definitions, right, right, what 0:49:51.200 --> 0:49:52.759 is the GMO and all that. I'll tell us a 0:49:52.760 --> 0:49:54.440 little story and then we'll get back to that, right. 0:49:54.840 --> 0:49:58.960 But the whole thing is that there had been and 0:49:59.520 --> 0:50:04.000 organic insecticide called bacillustheringens or BT, and it was sold 0:50:04.160 --> 0:50:07.480 called dipel and organic farmers used that. And basically it 0:50:07.600 --> 0:50:17.000 was a fermented soup and dried down of bacterial spores, right, 0:50:17.080 --> 0:50:19.440 but organic farmers used it because it was natural, right. 0:50:19.520 --> 0:50:24.400 It was it was a bacteria that kills insects, produced naturally, 0:50:24.680 --> 0:50:27.279 you know. Abbott produced it in these big fermenters that 0:50:27.360 --> 0:50:30.040 they used for pharmaceutic you know, like this big industry 0:50:30.480 --> 0:50:32.880 and organic pharmacusic. But also back in my state of 0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:37.200 North Carolina, tobacco farmers used it against caterpillars, you know, 0:50:37.400 --> 0:50:39.480 and this is you know, pretty intensive, and you put 0:50:39.520 --> 0:50:43.040 it in the tobacco and when the you know, caterpillars 0:50:43.080 --> 0:50:45.640 feed on it, they get disease and they die. Right. 0:50:45.719 --> 0:50:48.640 But they're one of the things about that bacterias it 0:50:48.719 --> 0:50:52.200 had a single protein that it produced. It was toxic 0:50:52.360 --> 0:50:55.160 to the guts of the insect that actually made holes 0:50:55.200 --> 0:50:59.920 in the cells. Right. So folks from Montsanto and other 0:51:00.000 --> 0:51:02.120 people were working on that. But what they did was 0:51:02.239 --> 0:51:05.920 they found the gene that codes for that protein. And 0:51:06.000 --> 0:51:07.560 we'll get into this a little bit. When you want 0:51:07.600 --> 0:51:09.239 to say, what is the GMO and what is an 0:51:09.360 --> 0:51:12.880 organic duck? All right? Because what they did was they 0:51:12.960 --> 0:51:17.040 took the DNA code from that bacteria and they moved 0:51:17.200 --> 0:51:20.920 back back one step all right, good, good? What's what 0:51:21.800 --> 0:51:25.840 one step one step back? What had the okay? What 0:51:26.040 --> 0:51:28.200 had the thing that rots the hole through the gut? 0:51:29.760 --> 0:51:34.040 This protein? All right, there was proteins. It's part of 0:51:34.239 --> 0:51:39.040 that bacteria. Every time that bacteria, you know, makes a spore, 0:51:39.200 --> 0:51:41.600 so it could last, you know, when there's no food around, 0:51:41.880 --> 0:51:44.800 it would sort of protect itself by making this toxin. 0:51:45.280 --> 0:51:48.759 And it was a protein toxin. Okay. So that so 0:51:48.960 --> 0:51:51.200 that's what the farmers were using. Right, they spray it 0:51:51.920 --> 0:51:57.560 and when the catapety living protein, well, they spray how 0:51:57.600 --> 0:52:00.160 do you call a living a protein with in a 0:52:00.239 --> 0:52:04.160 living bacteria and sometimes they kill the bacteria to process it. 0:52:04.239 --> 0:52:08.839 But whatever it was, that yeah, and actually it would 0:52:08.880 --> 0:52:12.880 only stay out there for about four days because with 0:52:13.080 --> 0:52:15.400 sunlight and everything else, it would decompose. But the main 0:52:15.480 --> 0:52:18.320 thing is that's how they kill caterpillars, right, using that 0:52:18.480 --> 0:52:21.640 protein which was toxic. Right, once the caterpillar ate it, 0:52:22.200 --> 0:52:26.680 it died. So so what these technology people did was 0:52:26.840 --> 0:52:30.279 they took the gene that codes for that protein. So right, 0:52:30.400 --> 0:52:33.560 let's just go back to you have Every organism has 0:52:33.719 --> 0:52:36.640 d N A, and the d n A is read 0:52:37.680 --> 0:52:42.319 you know, in in the cell by and becomes rn A, right, 0:52:42.560 --> 0:52:46.879 and that becomes protein. So for every gene, everybody says 0:52:47.200 --> 0:52:49.799 you get one protein a. Right. So that's the whole 0:52:49.840 --> 0:52:53.680 translation of you have a People would call it like 0:52:53.800 --> 0:52:57.480 a blueprint is the DNA and the house is the protein. 0:52:58.320 --> 0:53:01.719 So you go from that blueprint to the protein. So 0:53:01.880 --> 0:53:05.480 the protein is what's killing that insect. So what these 0:53:05.600 --> 0:53:09.640 technology people did was it took that blueprint and moved 0:53:09.680 --> 0:53:12.760 it from the bacteria into a tobacco plant. At first, 0:53:13.120 --> 0:53:15.680 that was the that was the like the original one. Yeah, 0:53:16.080 --> 0:53:20.239 tobacco was like the white rat of plant biology because 0:53:20.280 --> 0:53:21.920 we so eased to work with. I know, I know 0:53:22.040 --> 0:53:26.080 it's weird, but that that's that whole was largely driven 0:53:26.160 --> 0:53:34.080 by Chester. Okay, whoa wait a minute here what noll 0:53:34.080 --> 0:53:38.640 I listen? So here these boys started chewing as young babes. Okay, well, hey, 0:53:38.760 --> 0:53:43.640 I'm not the GMO in you just just all right, 0:53:43.680 --> 0:53:45.600 So let me tell you about that, all right, Chester, 0:53:46.360 --> 0:53:49.000 So here we have this, right, the first plant, the 0:53:49.080 --> 0:53:52.880 easiest thing to make to be toxic to these catapults, 0:53:52.920 --> 0:53:55.440 and it was. And anybody who grew up in North 0:53:55.480 --> 0:53:58.080 Carolina some of your listeners know this that if you 0:53:58.160 --> 0:54:01.040 grew up in North Carolina for years ago and you 0:54:01.120 --> 0:54:04.279 were a little kid, you got paid money for every 0:54:04.360 --> 0:54:07.360 caterpillar that you pulled out of a tobacco plant and squeezed, 0:54:09.000 --> 0:54:13.759 because they you know, and stead before all this insectici Yeah, 0:54:13.880 --> 0:54:19.520 exactly exactly. So that was like, that's like, that's that's 0:54:19.560 --> 0:54:21.960 like the wait wait wait, okay, that's the first I mean, 0:54:22.040 --> 0:54:25.120 that's like like the first thing like what people would 0:54:25.120 --> 0:54:28.719 have called a genetically modified organism. Well that i'd have 0:54:28.800 --> 0:54:30.960 to say in terms of something that could have been 0:54:30.960 --> 0:54:35.600 a commercialized crop. Yes, that's probably so let me tell 0:54:35.600 --> 0:54:38.799 you all right, all right, Well, the is a reason 0:54:38.880 --> 0:54:41.839 why you don't know about it, and that is they 0:54:41.920 --> 0:54:44.680 developed that. And we were working actually with some of 0:54:44.719 --> 0:54:47.680 the companies to test some of this because so these 0:54:47.719 --> 0:54:52.200 are companies that no longer exists Romans Do you know 0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:54.920 Roman has? Yeah, Well you wouldn't because they don't exists 0:54:54.920 --> 0:54:58.399 a tobacco producer. Well, no, they were a chemical producer. Okay, 0:54:58.480 --> 0:55:01.399 I mean you know these these things really complicated. When 0:55:01.440 --> 0:55:04.200 you get to these companies. You know, there's no more Monsanto, right, 0:55:05.600 --> 0:55:09.759 Oh there is, it's gone. Bayer bought them. Yeah, so 0:55:10.160 --> 0:55:12.320 that's what happens. But to get back to the story, 0:55:12.920 --> 0:55:16.320 was that we we tested some of these tobacco plants 0:55:16.840 --> 0:55:21.160 and they were like a mortality of the caterpillars. Right now, 0:55:21.239 --> 0:55:23.600 this is a protein that comes from an organic thing 0:55:23.719 --> 0:55:27.520 that people have been using in tobacco, right, and they 0:55:27.960 --> 0:55:31.360 put protein and they put that natural protein into that 0:55:31.480 --> 0:55:36.840 tobacco plant. Okay, And we actually did have a meeting 0:55:36.960 --> 0:55:41.160 with Reynolds Tobacco company to talk about this as to 0:55:41.239 --> 0:55:44.320 whether that would be a good idea for their tobacco. 0:55:45.040 --> 0:55:46.680 And you know, I don't want to swear to this, 0:55:46.880 --> 0:55:48.799 but the word that came back to me was they 0:55:48.880 --> 0:55:53.400 considered it, but their pr people figured that they're smokers 0:55:53.440 --> 0:55:59.400 would not want to because because it would have the 0:55:59.480 --> 0:56:03.799 hand out. My right, I'll smoke, I'll smoke twenty these 0:56:03.840 --> 0:56:06.000 things a day, but there's just some things I won't do. 0:56:06.280 --> 0:56:10.320 Right exactly. But now wait a minute, now, have you 0:56:10.400 --> 0:56:13.680 ever heard of organic tobacco? Yeah, yeah, right, you've heard 0:56:13.719 --> 0:56:15.759 of organic tobacco because it's out on the market, but 0:56:15.880 --> 0:56:21.320 not transgenic tobacco because that will kill you. No anyway, 0:56:21.440 --> 0:56:23.239 I mean people are fine, even though they could have 0:56:23.320 --> 0:56:28.520 killed of those caterpillars. Right, So so I just this 0:56:28.719 --> 0:56:33.439 is why this human nature. Did any tobacco Did any 0:56:33.600 --> 0:56:36.200 big tobacco company pick up on it? Nobody did. They 0:56:36.239 --> 0:56:38.320 don't want it. It's never I mean, we grow tobacco 0:56:38.360 --> 0:56:41.640 in North Carolina, you know, big Lake creage. Still they 0:56:41.680 --> 0:56:53.040 still spread it. Yeah, really yeah, okay, real about that, Phil. 0:56:53.080 --> 0:56:56.880 I can't tell Phil's pay attention. No, I'm I'm paying attention. 0:56:56.920 --> 0:56:59.040 I just when you were talking about Yeah, these health 0:56:59.080 --> 0:57:01.480 conscious smokers just reminded me of all the guys in 0:57:01.560 --> 0:57:03.759 my dorm room rolling their own cigarettes. But oh it's 0:57:03.760 --> 0:57:06.840 it's loose leaf tobacco, so it's good for you actually, 0:57:08.120 --> 0:57:11.560 right exactly, So so just you know, get around. We'll 0:57:11.600 --> 0:57:14.200 get to this health thing. Right. But but what got 0:57:14.280 --> 0:57:17.680 me involved? Right, because I'm interested in using this stuff, 0:57:17.720 --> 0:57:20.880 but using it so it's sustainable. And I learned from 0:57:20.920 --> 0:57:24.440 those spider mites it only took them like two months 0:57:24.560 --> 0:57:29.320 to adapt to this cucurbitation thing right back in you up, 0:57:29.560 --> 0:57:34.320 how would when it when it makes sense to you 0:57:34.640 --> 0:57:36.480 get into how you wouldn't have had the same problem 0:57:36.520 --> 0:57:40.360 with your tobacco leaves. Well that's what that's where I 0:57:40.440 --> 0:57:45.400 come in. So I'm actually trained as an applied evolutionary biologist, right, 0:57:45.720 --> 0:57:48.960 so I'm interested in how these things evolved. Right, So 0:57:49.160 --> 0:57:53.080 the idea is how can we stop evolution? Right? So 0:57:53.320 --> 0:57:56.160 it was clear to me that if all of a sudden, 0:57:56.240 --> 0:57:58.440 so the organic tobacco people when they put out their 0:57:58.480 --> 0:58:01.040 bt the dipell and stuff like that, it only lasts 0:58:01.080 --> 0:58:02.680 for a couple of days, right, so it's not out 0:58:02.720 --> 0:58:05.760 there all the time. But what the Monsando people were 0:58:05.800 --> 0:58:08.680 doing was using a promoter that turns on this gene 0:58:08.720 --> 0:58:11.120 that makes that protein all the time from the time 0:58:11.200 --> 0:58:14.040 the seedling comes out until it dies. Right, So the 0:58:14.160 --> 0:58:16.320 insects are exposed to it all the times, like taking 0:58:16.320 --> 0:58:21.200 antibiotics all the time, right, good or not good? Well, 0:58:21.240 --> 0:58:24.880 it's going to cause the bacteria resistance in the same way, 0:58:25.280 --> 0:58:28.320 right that. So we were sort of saying, gee, this 0:58:28.440 --> 0:58:30.240 could be a good thing, but not the way you're 0:58:30.280 --> 0:58:32.000 doing it. We need to come up with a way 0:58:32.040 --> 0:58:36.000 that you could use it and have more sustainable agriculture. 0:58:36.040 --> 0:58:39.200 So the insects won't adapt to it, and so that's 0:58:39.280 --> 0:58:42.000 my area of interest. But when I was doing this 0:58:42.160 --> 0:58:44.760 before GMOs, there were plenty of other things to work on, 0:58:45.120 --> 0:58:47.400 like the Hessian fly that I mentioned before that I 0:58:47.560 --> 0:58:49.680 was working on and who's that of pain in the 0:58:49.720 --> 0:58:54.160 ask you again, wheat growers. Yeah, but the amount of 0:58:54.240 --> 0:58:58.200 money that's available for crop breeding for Hessian fire resistance 0:58:58.680 --> 0:59:01.760 is not huge, so you know, getting making headway with 0:59:01.840 --> 0:59:04.800 that was kind of slow. But when transgenic crops came out, 0:59:04.840 --> 0:59:07.720 all of a sudden, there was all this controversy about them, right, 0:59:08.480 --> 0:59:10.720 and so there were the people who said you needed 0:59:10.760 --> 0:59:13.520 to feed the world, and people said it's gonna poison you. 0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:15.560 And we were saying, hey, wait a minute, we've been 0:59:15.640 --> 0:59:17.760 using this for organic stuff, but if you use it 0:59:18.680 --> 0:59:21.360 too heavily, it's gonna go away and it's not going 0:59:21.400 --> 0:59:24.000 to be sustainable. And so we were in the middle, 0:59:24.000 --> 0:59:25.160 and all of a sudden there was a lot of 0:59:25.200 --> 0:59:29.480 attention to this, to the point that when the first crops, 0:59:29.560 --> 0:59:32.240 the first cotton in the first corn came out with 0:59:32.440 --> 0:59:37.720 BT in it, the Secretary of Agriculture label that those 0:59:37.840 --> 0:59:42.080 crops a public good. That right, it's going to decrease 0:59:42.120 --> 0:59:48.160 the amount. Oh god, I gotta go back. It was 0:59:48.360 --> 0:59:54.080 in nineteen ninety six that that came out, something like that, 0:59:54.680 --> 0:59:59.200 Phil look down there, okay, But but the main the 0:59:59.320 --> 1:00:02.080 piece on that that was really important was he says, 1:00:02.080 --> 1:00:04.680 a public good, so we have to protect it. So 1:00:05.200 --> 1:00:09.160 he involved or the U. S d A, involved our 1:00:09.240 --> 1:00:12.080 group and some others to come up with what approach 1:00:12.160 --> 1:00:15.480 could you take to slow down the evolution of resistance 1:00:15.560 --> 1:00:18.960 to this? And I could go into a bunch of detail, 1:00:19.040 --> 1:00:21.120 but I think I don't hop if you want it. 1:00:21.160 --> 1:00:23.920 But you know, it's basically a way of actually, like 1:00:24.120 --> 1:00:26.520 with an antibiotic, right, the doctor who says take it 1:00:26.680 --> 1:00:29.720 until the very end, right as many days as you 1:00:29.760 --> 1:00:32.439 want give it, give those back to a really high dose. 1:00:32.480 --> 1:00:37.640 A huge evolutionary challenge that hopefully they can't meet. So 1:00:38.040 --> 1:00:40.560 our whole we came up with lots of different approaches, 1:00:40.600 --> 1:00:42.480 but the one that the companies thought they could meet 1:00:42.960 --> 1:00:44.960 was coming up with a very high dose and the 1:00:45.080 --> 1:00:48.960 plant of this protein that's not at all toxic to humans, 1:00:49.160 --> 1:00:51.959 not at all toxic to humans, right, and it can't 1:00:51.960 --> 1:00:54.560 be carcinogenic in a sense because it breaks down. But 1:00:54.920 --> 1:00:56.920 we get into that, but the main thing was that 1:00:57.000 --> 1:00:59.160 you could have a high dose but also leave some 1:00:59.360 --> 1:01:01.400 of the crop without any of the BT talks and 1:01:01.480 --> 1:01:05.360 at all. So that would produce susceptible insects that would 1:01:05.360 --> 1:01:08.800 then mate with any few resistant insects. So it's called 1:01:08.840 --> 1:01:11.440 the high dose refuge approach. And the U s c 1:01:11.600 --> 1:01:14.440 A made that uh and and the e p A 1:01:15.360 --> 1:01:18.200 made that code. You know, that was what was needed. 1:01:18.560 --> 1:01:21.320 Of course, that you have to have enforcement. And that's 1:01:21.320 --> 1:01:24.480 the problem, right, I mean, people are planning refuges and 1:01:24.880 --> 1:01:27.680 using the high dose for some insects, but it hasn't 1:01:27.760 --> 1:01:31.160 turned out quite as good. But when it's used over 1:01:31.200 --> 1:01:35.560 the last twenty years, since nineteen nine, well since nine, um, 1:01:36.520 --> 1:01:39.880 in those insects haven't become resistant. In cases where it 1:01:39.920 --> 1:01:43.600 hasn't been used, insects have become resist. So that's been 1:01:44.160 --> 1:01:46.480 you know, a nice story at least, you know in 1:01:46.600 --> 1:01:49.240 terms of you know, if you think and you plan carefully, 1:01:49.840 --> 1:01:54.400 you can do something more sustainable. Uh. Let's approach this. 1:01:54.560 --> 1:01:57.920 You're smiling. I want to approach this whole subject from 1:01:57.920 --> 1:02:06.440 a different angle from all right, Um, when you go 1:02:06.560 --> 1:02:08.760 to the whole foods store, not like whole foods where 1:02:08.960 --> 1:02:10.840 you go to like a you know, like a fancy 1:02:10.920 --> 1:02:14.280 s fancy store. Here in this town. We have what's 1:02:14.320 --> 1:02:16.880 there with the co op? Yeah, I one time saw 1:02:16.920 --> 1:02:19.080 an advertisement in in the co op. I don't like, really, 1:02:19.120 --> 1:02:22.560 I don't really going into that much, but um, it's 1:02:22.600 --> 1:02:25.880 just a little too special. There was an advertisement in 1:02:25.960 --> 1:02:29.240 there for a cat psychologist. But it was one of 1:02:29.280 --> 1:02:31.640 those ones where you you know, you cut the fringe 1:02:31.880 --> 1:02:33.760 and write your number on all the fringe pieces on 1:02:33.840 --> 1:02:36.360 the paper and tear them off. All of them had 1:02:36.400 --> 1:02:42.880 been torn off. A cat psychologist. Okay, somebody could have 1:02:42.960 --> 1:02:47.160 just been upset with that and then just like seeing 1:02:47.160 --> 1:02:48.840 an orange tape in the woods, you gotta tear that. 1:02:49.600 --> 1:02:51.720 It was just people calling her to goof on her. 1:02:52.120 --> 1:02:56.960 But um, anyhow, you go down to this place, okay, whatever, 1:02:57.160 --> 1:03:00.720 and you buy a box of cereal and bold letters 1:03:00.760 --> 1:03:07.680 on no GMOs? What are they signaling to? Like? What 1:03:07.840 --> 1:03:13.160 are they what are they telling people that people think 1:03:13.240 --> 1:03:16.160 they're hearing? What are they telling people that they actually 1:03:16.240 --> 1:03:21.120 need to know? Is it? Uh? Is it a non point? 1:03:22.360 --> 1:03:27.320 Oh man? Yeah, you can get non gmo water. Really, 1:03:28.840 --> 1:03:30.680 someone who bother to put that out there? Well, you 1:03:30.880 --> 1:03:34.000 get no water that has no calories in it too, 1:03:36.200 --> 1:03:40.040 So it's a back up. Most of the stuff you 1:03:40.160 --> 1:03:42.520 buy in the grocery store, you couldn't get GMO if 1:03:42.560 --> 1:03:45.200 you want it because it's not there. So, you know, 1:03:45.280 --> 1:03:46.800 a lot of people think that when they go to 1:03:46.880 --> 1:03:49.960 the grocery store, if they buy peppers, they buy carrots, 1:03:50.400 --> 1:03:54.560 they have to look out that they're not getting GMO. Vegetables. Well, 1:03:54.680 --> 1:03:58.120 there are a couple of vegetables that have been you know, 1:03:58.280 --> 1:04:03.480 that our GMO, but mostly it's just corn and soybean 1:04:03.680 --> 1:04:06.760 and cotton. In the US, there are sugar beets, there's 1:04:06.800 --> 1:04:10.480 a specialty apple that doesn't brown, and stuff like that. Yeah, 1:04:10.880 --> 1:04:13.520 but very little. Would you like one of those special 1:04:13.600 --> 1:04:18.320 apples taste good? Yeah, well apparently apparently they Yeah, they 1:04:18.360 --> 1:04:20.480 don't brown. You know, you could put lemon on them. 1:04:20.520 --> 1:04:22.480 Now that's another way of doing it. But you know, 1:04:22.560 --> 1:04:24.880 you could send your kids to school and they would 1:04:24.920 --> 1:04:29.280 have apples it wouldn't brown, sliced apples, or you could 1:04:29.360 --> 1:04:32.400 have it in a salad bar and you could lead 1:04:32.480 --> 1:04:35.560 it out for two days and nobody would know u. Yeah, 1:04:36.200 --> 1:04:39.760 but anyway, but there are a lot of good things 1:04:39.840 --> 1:04:42.400 coming along in those ways, but it's not out there 1:04:42.440 --> 1:04:48.280 so much. But to get to the corn, soybean, cotton, 1:04:48.400 --> 1:04:53.560 sugar beets, um, canola, Uh, mostly the big crops and 1:04:54.000 --> 1:04:55.840 the big pest because you know a lot of it's 1:04:55.880 --> 1:04:59.560 been done for her beside tolerance, um, for g life's sake. 1:04:59.680 --> 1:05:02.720 Now that the weeds is somebody of your people know 1:05:03.160 --> 1:05:05.800 have become resistant to life sit because it's been overused, 1:05:05.840 --> 1:05:08.720 same same old, same right, so they're going to other 1:05:08.880 --> 1:05:13.120 other compounds. But um, basically you have to think about 1:05:13.120 --> 1:05:17.000 it commercially. You know what's the market for these different things, right, 1:05:17.320 --> 1:05:20.080 I mean the amount of market for sea quarn seat 1:05:20.200 --> 1:05:22.080 is huge in the United States, So that's where you 1:05:22.120 --> 1:05:26.680 want to make your investment, not in blackberries. Right so so, 1:05:26.840 --> 1:05:29.440 but but so to get to your point, let me 1:05:29.480 --> 1:05:31.840 get to your point. But I want to on top 1:05:31.840 --> 1:05:35.520 of that, it's more like, um, it's not that you 1:05:35.640 --> 1:05:38.960 couldn't that that someone couldn't mess around with carrots and 1:05:39.200 --> 1:05:42.600 find some improvement if they wanted to. It's just like 1:05:42.720 --> 1:05:44.760 it's it's more like it's it's out there for things 1:05:44.800 --> 1:05:47.040 that there's been a need. It's not that there's a 1:05:47.160 --> 1:05:50.120 reason why in the future you wouldn't have GMO carrots yeah, yeah, 1:05:50.200 --> 1:05:52.720 you could, and people are working someone incentivized people are 1:05:52.840 --> 1:05:55.880 people are working on that. There's been a recent article, 1:05:55.920 --> 1:05:58.080 I guess, in the New York Times about somebody working 1:05:58.160 --> 1:06:01.880 on tomatoes that would be more nutritious, right, And there's 1:06:01.880 --> 1:06:03.720 a lot of that going on, but they haven't hit 1:06:03.760 --> 1:06:05.560 the market. But to go back to your thing about 1:06:05.600 --> 1:06:08.080 going to the grocery store, go to any old grocery 1:06:08.120 --> 1:06:12.000 store and look at cheerios in the cereal section, right, 1:06:12.800 --> 1:06:15.600 and you'll see that they're on the boxes of cheerios. 1:06:16.160 --> 1:06:18.160 If you look at the regular old cheerios, you know, 1:06:18.320 --> 1:06:21.680 like good old what oats, you look on the box 1:06:21.760 --> 1:06:24.200 that said no GMOs on it, you'll see the label. Well, 1:06:24.280 --> 1:06:25.920 I don't know what it's like in Montana, but in 1:06:26.000 --> 1:06:27.560 North Carolina, you go to the grocery store, in the 1:06:27.640 --> 1:06:30.680 box says no GMOs. But you go and look at 1:06:30.720 --> 1:06:35.760 some of those fancier cheerios that have some other things 1:06:35.920 --> 1:06:42.680 in them, maybe corn syrup, um, maybe you fanci, oh, 1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:45.560 probably maybe honey nut, whatever it is, something that has 1:06:45.720 --> 1:06:48.600 corn in it or soybean in it, and those say 1:06:48.720 --> 1:06:52.880 contain some GMOs. Right, So they're being honest with you. 1:06:53.480 --> 1:06:55.600 Of course, the regular cheerios that are made out of 1:06:55.680 --> 1:06:58.960 oats don't have any GMOs. And because there aren't any 1:06:59.040 --> 1:07:02.160 oats that are produced that have GMOs in them. But 1:07:02.360 --> 1:07:06.400 you could go down the aisle to another sort of 1:07:06.480 --> 1:07:09.520 like cheerio e kind of sweet sweetened with some kind 1:07:09.560 --> 1:07:11.920 of corn, then then it's going to have GMO in it. 1:07:12.520 --> 1:07:14.439 Now we can get to the question of as corn 1:07:14.520 --> 1:07:18.479 syrup a GMO. Right, So if you have corn that's 1:07:18.520 --> 1:07:23.240 been genetically engineered, right, somebody put herbicide tolerance into that corner. 1:07:23.320 --> 1:07:26.000 Somebody put that protein I was talking about into that 1:07:26.120 --> 1:07:30.360 corn all right, Well that protein was there, what makes 1:07:30.400 --> 1:07:34.120 it a GMO? Right? Well, of course we can go 1:07:34.200 --> 1:07:37.200 back just to quickly. I think all your folks know 1:07:37.440 --> 1:07:42.160 that genetically modified is any crop that we grow? Right? 1:07:42.720 --> 1:07:46.880 Corn was developed from teosinte thousands of years ago by 1:07:47.600 --> 1:07:52.000 cut farmers in Mexico, right, And it was like a grass, 1:07:52.160 --> 1:07:54.680 right it was. Yeah. I mean so all of these 1:07:54.760 --> 1:07:59.360 things anything you have, potatoes, tomatoes, tomatoes grow wild in 1:07:59.440 --> 1:08:02.160 the andes, these little things that might kill you because 1:08:02.200 --> 1:08:06.200 of the content. Yeah, all of those things have been Yeah, 1:08:06.280 --> 1:08:09.480 so that's something that's really really exciting. The apple is 1:08:09.520 --> 1:08:13.000 some little ship and thing from Kazakhstan or something, right, right, 1:08:13.400 --> 1:08:18.439 all of these things that oh yeah, well they it 1:08:18.560 --> 1:08:24.120 really is. It's really grass from the western hemisphere, so potatoes, 1:08:24.360 --> 1:08:26.560 you know, you well, the main thing is, you know 1:08:26.720 --> 1:08:29.360 this is way back at the turn of the century. 1:08:29.640 --> 1:08:33.080 You know, this is like you had Darwin right discovered 1:08:33.080 --> 1:08:37.880 all this stuff about natural selection and this uh Russian 1:08:38.000 --> 1:08:45.920 agricultural evolutionary biologists um got interested um in g can 1:08:45.960 --> 1:08:48.960 I use evolution to understand how to get better crops 1:08:49.080 --> 1:08:53.080 for Russia at that time before the revolution. And his 1:08:53.200 --> 1:08:56.000 whole thing was going all over the world to collect 1:08:56.040 --> 1:08:59.040 the most diverse germ plasm he could German pleasant meaning 1:08:59.080 --> 1:09:02.760 the most netic diversity. Right, So he's going to Kazakhstan, 1:09:02.960 --> 1:09:05.920 he'd go to the United States or Mexico, collect all 1:09:05.960 --> 1:09:09.519 these seeds and bring them back to his operation, huge 1:09:09.560 --> 1:09:13.240 operation to save those seeds and breed better crops. Right. 1:09:13.479 --> 1:09:15.640 But to get to your point, you know where all 1:09:15.720 --> 1:09:18.040 these things came from. So he was really one of 1:09:18.120 --> 1:09:21.120 these people who went back to find the grasses or 1:09:21.240 --> 1:09:24.120 to find what was the original potato thing that led 1:09:24.160 --> 1:09:27.920 to a potato um so that you could find things 1:09:27.960 --> 1:09:29.880 in the andies. So they came from different parts of 1:09:30.000 --> 1:09:32.400 the world. Right, I wish I could give you all 1:09:32.479 --> 1:09:35.839 of the diesels. But obviously rice, you know, came from Asia. 1:09:35.920 --> 1:09:39.599 Soybean came from China, right, and then they spread over 1:09:39.600 --> 1:09:41.920 the world. You know, we think of Italians being into 1:09:41.960 --> 1:09:46.600 tomato sauce, right, Well, they didn't have tomatoes. Do you 1:09:46.640 --> 1:09:49.000 want to hear these stories in my first book? All right, 1:09:49.640 --> 1:09:53.240 all the Italians got turned and worried about them in 1:09:53.280 --> 1:09:55.640 the beginning, and right, so, I mean this is the 1:09:55.960 --> 1:09:59.120 story of of this is early interesting and even more 1:09:59.200 --> 1:10:01.880 interesting of the person aonalities to study it. There was 1:10:01.960 --> 1:10:06.000 this controversy about the origins of corn for like thirty years. 1:10:06.040 --> 1:10:08.519 I don't know, I thought it still was. No, I 1:10:08.560 --> 1:10:14.799 don't think so it's quieting though, Well, michell, when Michael 1:10:14.840 --> 1:10:18.120 Pollan wrote that book, the Hell's that book called, it 1:10:18.240 --> 1:10:25.400 was about weed, about her marijuana, taters apples, okay, yeah, 1:10:26.200 --> 1:10:30.160 boy desire. Yeah, it was about we think that we're 1:10:30.240 --> 1:10:33.559 using these plants, and it was about how they're using us. 1:10:33.560 --> 1:10:35.760 And it's like how these plants conquered the world, right, 1:10:35.920 --> 1:10:38.640 you know, conquered the world by appealing to humans. But 1:10:38.760 --> 1:10:40.479 you were just talking about that, right, in terms of 1:10:40.520 --> 1:10:43.720 animals that love hanging out, Right, all those squirrels in 1:10:43.800 --> 1:10:50.280 my backyard, Eastern Eastern grays. How many acres you got, No, 1:10:50.880 --> 1:10:52.559 I'm in this, I'm in this, I'm in the city. 1:10:52.600 --> 1:10:56.599 You want to go ahead. My squirrels they're pretty smart. 1:10:59.120 --> 1:11:01.559 So let's get back of that thing, right. So, um, 1:11:01.760 --> 1:11:05.439 all these crops are really you know, we're genetically modified, right, 1:11:05.479 --> 1:11:09.120 they're genetically modified from something wild again, like those spices. 1:11:09.160 --> 1:11:12.799 They didn't come to you as the bounty of nature. 1:11:13.400 --> 1:11:16.880 They came to you screaming and hollering as as you 1:11:17.040 --> 1:11:20.559 got them to come, or they got us to breathe 1:11:20.600 --> 1:11:23.920 them so they could live nicely in a big, huge cornfield. Here, 1:11:24.000 --> 1:11:26.400 now I'm getting okay, here's where this, here's where you 1:11:26.439 --> 1:11:32.120 gotta get clear. If there's a difference between like if 1:11:32.200 --> 1:11:35.200 I whatever, I'm messing around my garden. Yeah, okay, and 1:11:35.280 --> 1:11:37.560 I'm and I'm whatever messing around with pole beans, and 1:11:37.600 --> 1:11:39.800 I mixed the different kinds of pole beans, and and 1:11:39.880 --> 1:11:43.000 I stumbled across and also I realized I got some 1:11:43.080 --> 1:11:46.880 kind of weird variety that loves my yard. Okay, no 1:11:47.000 --> 1:11:49.000 one is gonna be like I'm not eating that something 1:11:49.040 --> 1:11:52.800 bits pole beans. Those are GMOs right there, head, Like, 1:11:52.960 --> 1:11:54.519 what is the difference? There's a difference. I don't know 1:11:54.560 --> 1:11:57.640 what it is. I'm I honestly don't know, but I 1:11:57.720 --> 1:12:02.160 know that GMO. I don't say GMO apologists is GMO 1:12:02.280 --> 1:12:06.679 explainers like to point to, well, everything is because everything's 1:12:06.680 --> 1:12:12.960 been manipulated, right, So but um, all right, so let 1:12:13.000 --> 1:12:14.720 me let me you know, you're having me on your 1:12:14.720 --> 1:12:17.080 show because I was in charge of writing this six 1:12:17.560 --> 1:12:22.200 page report on GMO. And we don't use the word GMOs. Don't. 1:12:22.320 --> 1:12:27.160 We use genetically engineered crops and genetically engineered foods. And 1:12:27.280 --> 1:12:29.439 the reason we do that is to stay clear of 1:12:29.520 --> 1:12:33.160 this as we can, because it is such an odd definition. 1:12:33.240 --> 1:12:35.160 It got. It was a label that sort of stuck, 1:12:35.800 --> 1:12:37.640 you know, like frankin foods or something, you know, like 1:12:37.720 --> 1:12:40.160 it's just the one that sucked. But it muddles the 1:12:40.240 --> 1:12:44.880 water because indeed, people sort of what's happening here is 1:12:44.960 --> 1:12:49.519 you know, we've been engineering, you know, genetically modifying food 1:12:49.560 --> 1:12:53.040 for a long time. We've sometimes made mistakes in the breeding. 1:12:53.400 --> 1:12:55.200 You know, there was a potato that came out that 1:12:55.280 --> 1:12:58.200 had more alkaloid in it that had to be taken 1:12:58.240 --> 1:13:00.320 off the market because what would it do. It would 1:13:00.320 --> 1:13:03.320 make people sick. You know, Alkaloids are I don't know, 1:13:03.320 --> 1:13:05.680 They're just toxic to a lot of things, right, And 1:13:05.760 --> 1:13:08.719 that's why when we bread, when the original people bread 1:13:09.040 --> 1:13:12.720 those tomatoes sol in a city that that like copersicum, 1:13:13.040 --> 1:13:15.200 they got you know, they kept breeding for the ones 1:13:15.280 --> 1:13:19.439 that wouldn't produce as much alkaloid. Right. Mostly what happens 1:13:19.479 --> 1:13:23.040 in tomatoes or in some potatoes is they'll produce the 1:13:23.080 --> 1:13:25.960 alkaloid until they get ripe, and then they get rid 1:13:26.000 --> 1:13:29.360 of it over time. Well, so that makes it well. 1:13:29.439 --> 1:13:32.160 One of the things is they defend themselves against birds 1:13:32.800 --> 1:13:36.680 eating the fruit too early before it's mature. Right, So 1:13:36.760 --> 1:13:39.400 once that seed is mature, then they want the bird 1:13:39.479 --> 1:13:41.639 to disperse it, so they make the fruit taste sweet 1:13:41.720 --> 1:13:46.280 and nice. Those plants are smart, right, or whatever evolution 1:13:46.400 --> 1:13:50.360 is has worked. But but again that's happened a lot. 1:13:50.600 --> 1:13:54.760 So what we differentiate that because people are interested is 1:13:54.800 --> 1:14:00.240 this new technology with the first applications coming out. I've 1:14:00.320 --> 1:14:04.800 where some commercially bread potatoes that had this protein, the 1:14:04.880 --> 1:14:09.920 BT protein that from that bacteria. When that first came out, 1:14:10.000 --> 1:14:12.800 the idea was, Wow, this is so new that genetically 1:14:12.880 --> 1:14:16.479 engineering this, and we don't know if in putting that 1:14:16.720 --> 1:14:20.760 gene into the plant, they have caused some disruption of 1:14:20.800 --> 1:14:24.120 the plant's physiology and now maybe it's making an alkaloid 1:14:24.160 --> 1:14:27.639 that's going to kill us because we've disrupted the genome 1:14:27.760 --> 1:14:30.560 of that plant. I mean, we didn't know much about this. 1:14:30.720 --> 1:14:33.080 I mean it was really interesting when they first put 1:14:33.160 --> 1:14:37.800 that bacterial code, that blueprint from a bacteria into a plant. 1:14:38.080 --> 1:14:41.280 It didn't work very good because those things have been 1:14:41.320 --> 1:14:44.280 separated so long that the plant didn't know how to 1:14:44.439 --> 1:14:49.200 interpret that blueprint very well. So they readjusted the blueprint, 1:14:49.439 --> 1:14:51.040 made it red. I don't know what, you know, they 1:14:51.160 --> 1:14:54.240 adjusted how those codes were so they could get the 1:14:54.320 --> 1:14:56.800 same protein out and the plant would recognize it. So 1:14:56.960 --> 1:15:02.040 that was like an early fear was I don't know 1:15:02.160 --> 1:15:05.479 what that is, right, And you know, in a certain sense, 1:15:05.920 --> 1:15:08.200 it was such an early fear. I mean, I'm I'm 1:15:08.280 --> 1:15:10.479 trained as an evolutionary biologist, and when that was happening, 1:15:10.520 --> 1:15:12.439 I said, oh my god, wait a minute, this is 1:15:12.479 --> 1:15:15.040 not gonna work. You have well no, I was just 1:15:15.120 --> 1:15:17.280 thinking of it like this is stupid. You know, you 1:15:17.320 --> 1:15:21.320 have these bacteria that evolves millions, billions of years different 1:15:21.560 --> 1:15:23.639 from the plants that these they haven't seen each other's 1:15:23.720 --> 1:15:27.439 code and forever you're gonna take something, throw slap it 1:15:27.520 --> 1:15:30.960 in there and somehow it's gonna and it worked, you know, 1:15:31.080 --> 1:15:33.679 And it was like taking an old cassette tape trying 1:15:33.720 --> 1:15:38.559 to get it your computer though, right, yeah, but anyway 1:15:38.640 --> 1:15:42.320 that that sort of stuff happened, and but people were 1:15:42.360 --> 1:15:45.720 still especially think if you're not that tuned into all 1:15:45.800 --> 1:15:49.479 the ramifications of the DNA and the protein and the evolution, 1:15:49.880 --> 1:15:52.680 or you think, man, this is wild ass stuff, right, 1:15:52.920 --> 1:15:54.840 you're gonna put that in there and expect everything to 1:15:54.920 --> 1:15:57.799 be copasetic, you know. So a lot of the early 1:15:58.200 --> 1:16:01.760 concern well, what some of it was about the protein itself, right, 1:16:02.120 --> 1:16:03.840 was well, that protein is fine if you put it 1:16:03.920 --> 1:16:05.200 on the top of a plant and you eat a 1:16:05.240 --> 1:16:06.600 little bit of it, but now it's going to be 1:16:06.680 --> 1:16:09.120 concentrated and you're gonna eat it. Do we have enough 1:16:09.160 --> 1:16:13.840 studies so the washing, right, no washing that off. So 1:16:14.160 --> 1:16:16.599 you know, the studies had to be done to make sure. 1:16:16.640 --> 1:16:18.840 And some people didn't trust the FDA or the U 1:16:18.960 --> 1:16:20.519 s d A or the E p A you know, 1:16:20.640 --> 1:16:22.280 to do it well or something like that. So there 1:16:22.360 --> 1:16:25.400 was a lot of controversy in the in the first years. So, 1:16:25.560 --> 1:16:28.439 but I think that the issue was if it was 1:16:28.680 --> 1:16:31.559 bred by you in your garden or by a company, 1:16:32.160 --> 1:16:35.960 uh like Harris or whatever. You know, some companies using 1:16:36.040 --> 1:16:39.280 traditional means to breed it. Well, we trust that. We've 1:16:39.320 --> 1:16:42.120 been trusting that for a hundred years, right, We've always 1:16:42.160 --> 1:16:45.439 had that kind of agricultures. But this is brand new, 1:16:46.200 --> 1:16:48.280 and I don't trust it. And by the way, I 1:16:48.360 --> 1:16:50.759 just generally don't trust the government, you know, or whatever 1:16:50.840 --> 1:16:53.160 it would be. And I think it's going to poison 1:16:53.280 --> 1:16:58.400 people over time. Right, I think that was a major concern. Now. 1:16:58.960 --> 1:17:01.519 The other concern, and that's one thing I want to 1:17:01.560 --> 1:17:05.439 talk about, is the issue of damn, this is not natural. 1:17:06.560 --> 1:17:11.360 I'm eating bacteria. I'm eating char in my strawberries, you know, 1:17:13.520 --> 1:17:16.880 strawberries at the char and it you know, like, what 1:17:17.120 --> 1:17:19.760 is this? So there was this great sort of uh 1:17:20.240 --> 1:17:23.679 bio design art group that designed the thing that would 1:17:23.720 --> 1:17:26.840 be called the mayo tomato. Right, tomatoes don't have a 1:17:26.920 --> 1:17:29.240 lot of protein in it, so we'll take mayacin as 1:17:29.240 --> 1:17:32.200 a good protein and put that Gane in tomato, So 1:17:32.320 --> 1:17:34.960 when you eat the tomato, you could be a good vegetarian, 1:17:35.880 --> 1:17:38.360 not become a n e maker or whatever. Um So, 1:17:38.600 --> 1:17:40.680 so that could be kind of weird, and that that's 1:17:40.720 --> 1:17:43.000 some of the safety stuff. But the other part is 1:17:43.080 --> 1:17:47.080 that is natural. So I would want to say that 1:17:48.160 --> 1:17:51.280 over time, those things have been tested, that the ones 1:17:51.320 --> 1:17:53.519 that are out there have been tested over and over again, 1:17:54.479 --> 1:17:56.919 some by the industry and you might not trust industry, 1:17:57.479 --> 1:18:01.280 but some by academic labs or other groups, or government 1:18:01.560 --> 1:18:05.880 groups and European groups, right, Europeans are very worried about GMOs, 1:18:06.200 --> 1:18:08.800 so they've done a lot of testing. When we wrote 1:18:08.840 --> 1:18:11.599 the six hundred page report, we had a huge number 1:18:11.600 --> 1:18:14.479 of references about safety testing, and in the back of 1:18:14.560 --> 1:18:18.320 that report we separate each of those references in terms 1:18:18.360 --> 1:18:21.200 of who did the study and who funded the study. 1:18:21.600 --> 1:18:24.240 So if somebody doesn't trust industry or government, you know, 1:18:24.320 --> 1:18:26.439 like they can pick and choose. But I think you 1:18:26.560 --> 1:18:28.639 find that if you go over the all those studies, 1:18:28.680 --> 1:18:31.519 you still come to the same conclusion that that corn 1:18:31.640 --> 1:18:35.080 in the Midwest is not going to affect your health 1:18:35.400 --> 1:18:37.920 in any measurable way. I mean, there's no way with 1:18:38.000 --> 1:18:40.599 anything for us to know if it's going to take 1:18:40.680 --> 1:18:44.519 a year off your life, right, I mean, you know, 1:18:46.200 --> 1:18:47.720 it's too many other variables, but we have that all 1:18:47.760 --> 1:18:49.840 the time. We don't know if a Mediterranean you know, 1:18:50.040 --> 1:18:52.519 Mediterranean diets supposed to be good for you, but eggs 1:18:52.600 --> 1:18:54.160 were good for you then they were bad for you. 1:18:54.400 --> 1:18:57.320 And cholesterol. You know, there are a lot of things 1:18:57.360 --> 1:18:59.240 where it's very hard to get that douta because it's 1:18:59.280 --> 1:19:03.080 so little. So you can say I don't trust it. 1:19:03.200 --> 1:19:06.840 But why would you then trust something that Steve Brendan 1:19:06.960 --> 1:19:10.479 his garden, right, it was weird, right, you find this 1:19:10.640 --> 1:19:13.880 mutant and you didn't find it, but you found that 1:19:13.960 --> 1:19:15.760 mute int your garden. How would you know that that 1:19:15.920 --> 1:19:19.840 mutation hadn't done some weird thing to the temples that 1:19:19.960 --> 1:19:23.000 the plant uses to kill its enemies. It wouldn't occur 1:19:23.040 --> 1:19:26.160 to you to be suspicious. It might occur to me, 1:19:26.240 --> 1:19:28.439 but it won't occur. It won't occur, It won't It 1:19:28.520 --> 1:19:30.240 won't occur to the U, S d A or f 1:19:30.360 --> 1:19:34.040 d A in any big way. Um. They do test 1:19:34.120 --> 1:19:37.439 things to make sure that they're substantially equivalent, they call it, 1:19:37.520 --> 1:19:38.720 you know, they look to see that they have the 1:19:38.760 --> 1:19:41.880 same amount of vitamins and so on. But only when 1:19:41.920 --> 1:19:44.640 it's something big, not something where somebody comes up with 1:19:44.680 --> 1:19:46.840 a new heirloom variety. They're not going to test that. 1:19:48.320 --> 1:19:53.719 So the deal is is that, um, you know, over time, 1:19:53.960 --> 1:19:56.120 there's been enough testing on the things that are there now. 1:19:56.800 --> 1:20:00.439 But when people start messing around with the pathways them selves. 1:20:00.760 --> 1:20:02.679 So let's say somebody wants to give you a better 1:20:02.760 --> 1:20:05.000 tomato and this was his article, I guess in the 1:20:05.040 --> 1:20:08.439 New York Times, um about I think it was New 1:20:08.520 --> 1:20:11.040 York Times um making a better tomato that would have 1:20:11.760 --> 1:20:15.439 more of these antioxidants in it. Right, Well, when you 1:20:15.520 --> 1:20:18.800 do that, you change the pathways. Because plants. Every plant 1:20:18.880 --> 1:20:22.800 makes five to a hundred different of these compounds that 1:20:23.000 --> 1:20:25.800 serve them in some way, right, So when you shut 1:20:25.880 --> 1:20:27.679 off the pathway to make one of them, you're gonna 1:20:27.680 --> 1:20:30.120 make more of something else. So we don't know in 1:20:30.200 --> 1:20:31.880 the future. You know, I don't want to say that 1:20:32.040 --> 1:20:34.920 just because we've proven that these few crops are safe 1:20:36.040 --> 1:20:38.960 that in the future you wouldn't be able to make 1:20:39.000 --> 1:20:41.519 a crop that would be genetically modified and would have 1:20:41.680 --> 1:20:46.080 health implications. So that's that is feasible that that could happen, 1:20:46.160 --> 1:20:48.920 So you just have to monitor well. And now compared 1:20:48.960 --> 1:20:52.160 to we have great tools, you know, the same way 1:20:52.200 --> 1:20:54.720 you do personalized medicine. We could get a blueprint of 1:20:54.800 --> 1:20:58.280 a person, right, and now you can do the whole 1:20:58.360 --> 1:21:01.880 genome of plants and find out if there's anything strange 1:21:01.960 --> 1:21:05.200 that's been affected by putting that gene in. So there's 1:21:05.280 --> 1:21:07.920 more of that I would my personally, I think that 1:21:07.960 --> 1:21:10.680 would be needed, uh, to figure this out, you know, 1:21:10.800 --> 1:21:15.160 to make people, you know, feel that due diligence has 1:21:15.240 --> 1:21:23.120 been done about safety. Do you think that the organic 1:21:23.320 --> 1:21:29.080 label is Do you think it's nonsense? No, I don't 1:21:29.120 --> 1:21:33.800 think they were getting laybals nonsense. But do you feel 1:21:33.880 --> 1:21:40.320 that if but but being a being a GMO whatever 1:21:40.360 --> 1:21:43.400 the hell? What the word you like? Better? Genetically engineered? 1:21:44.200 --> 1:21:49.679 Yea genetically a genetically engineered organism or an organism that's 1:21:49.720 --> 1:21:56.840 been fed genetically engineered organisms isn't eligible for organic labeling. Right, Well, 1:21:57.280 --> 1:22:00.439 so this you asked me if I thought organic labeling 1:22:00.560 --> 1:22:03.320 was a problem. But I think organic labeling is not 1:22:03.680 --> 1:22:08.000 just for GMOs. So the issue? Yeah, yeah, what all 1:22:08.280 --> 1:22:11.080 you know, it's it's you know, it's it's a value system, right, 1:22:11.600 --> 1:22:13.519 I mean, I really like to get things that have 1:22:13.600 --> 1:22:15.640 grown locally just because I want. I think, you know, 1:22:15.720 --> 1:22:17.880 we really need our agriculture and we don't want it 1:22:17.880 --> 1:22:21.680 all to be grown in some desert in Arizona somewhere. Um. 1:22:22.080 --> 1:22:24.639 But you know, so there are reasons why people do things. 1:22:24.760 --> 1:22:27.840 But in terms of the safety issue, if that's all 1:22:27.960 --> 1:22:32.639 you're concerned about, right, I don't think that the things 1:22:32.720 --> 1:22:34.920 you buy in the grocery store that our g M 1:22:35.000 --> 1:22:37.759 O versus non GMO are going to be any different 1:22:37.840 --> 1:22:42.400 in terms of your health. Okay, I'll give you one exception, 1:22:42.680 --> 1:22:47.280 but um, I think that the important piece that you're 1:22:47.320 --> 1:22:50.599 getting to though, is in terms of eating a duck 1:22:50.760 --> 1:22:54.439 that had fed on GMOs. Right, is that? So think 1:22:54.479 --> 1:22:58.160 about this duck, Okay, goes into a corn field out 1:22:58.200 --> 1:23:00.800 in North Dakota right where you did a show, right, 1:23:01.000 --> 1:23:03.800 and you shoot, these ducks were on soybeans and corn 1:23:04.479 --> 1:23:09.040 right exactly, and almost certainly all of that was probably engineered, 1:23:09.320 --> 1:23:13.439 at least most of it was engineered, right corn right, 1:23:13.960 --> 1:23:17.640 And so to worry about eating that duck because of 1:23:18.120 --> 1:23:21.519 the GMO that it's GMOs as opposed to the lead 1:23:21.600 --> 1:23:25.479 that it was exposed or whatever, maybe in your shotgun shell. 1:23:25.840 --> 1:23:29.360 You know, I mean it's it wouldn't be an issue 1:23:29.920 --> 1:23:31.720 to me. And let me explut the sound of your 1:23:31.720 --> 1:23:36.000 body shock and going off next next your ear. That's 1:23:36.040 --> 1:23:38.439 a whole other part. Right, what kind of risks are 1:23:38.439 --> 1:23:40.640 you willing to take? Right? But the thing is is 1:23:40.720 --> 1:23:44.040 that think about that duck. Right, So the plant makes 1:23:44.400 --> 1:23:47.439 a kernel. Let's you know, the corn kernel that it's eating, right, 1:23:47.840 --> 1:23:50.519 it takes it in gizzard. You talk about how you know, 1:23:50.800 --> 1:23:54.960 grinds it all up, it digests it that it's that 1:23:55.640 --> 1:24:00.240 d NA gets degraded, right, that DNA gets you know, 1:24:00.280 --> 1:24:03.000 there's all sorts of enzymes, and people have done testing 1:24:03.360 --> 1:24:07.519 to show that those that DNA gets degraded in the gut. Right, 1:24:07.640 --> 1:24:12.160 the digestive process digests that DNA and digests that protein 1:24:12.200 --> 1:24:14.200 to make great I mean no ascids to build duck. 1:24:15.400 --> 1:24:20.280 It doesn't wind up putting that protein from the bacteria 1:24:20.360 --> 1:24:24.280 straight into the meat. So by the time you actually 1:24:24.320 --> 1:24:27.439 get that duck. And people have done testing more on cows, right, 1:24:28.640 --> 1:24:30.519 you know, you don't find that in the milk. You 1:24:30.760 --> 1:24:33.479 find little fragments maybe, but you're not going to find 1:24:33.560 --> 1:24:36.080 a whole gene in there. And then you know, so 1:24:36.640 --> 1:24:39.160 that you know, it's that question of what makes it 1:24:39.479 --> 1:24:42.760 not be organic? Yeah, what does make it not your Well, 1:24:43.280 --> 1:24:47.640 I think the idea is it's not about biology as 1:24:47.720 --> 1:24:52.920 much as a social issue. Like organic beef. Okay, so 1:24:53.040 --> 1:24:57.240 you're so organic beats beef? Oh beef, Okay, there are 1:24:59.200 --> 1:25:01.840 if you buy I'm a vegetarians, I think beats when 1:25:01.880 --> 1:25:06.479 you say beef. If you buy organic beef, you're looking 1:25:06.520 --> 1:25:08.840 for a handful of things, right, It'll have to do 1:25:08.920 --> 1:25:14.080 with medications and all that. But um, if someone did, 1:25:14.640 --> 1:25:20.519 let's say a beef producer did everything organic except one 1:25:20.640 --> 1:25:28.200 detail they fed it GMO corn, genetically engineered cor that 1:25:28.600 --> 1:25:33.360 beef would be ineligible for organic labeling. But you're saying 1:25:34.120 --> 1:25:40.560 that a chemist wouldn't be able to go into that 1:25:40.800 --> 1:25:48.880 flesh and find the incriminating DNA. If they found it, 1:25:49.000 --> 1:25:51.160 it would be little pieces. I mean, they would not 1:25:51.320 --> 1:25:54.640 find something right, right, they wouldn't find functional protein or 1:25:54.720 --> 1:25:58.640 functional DNA and that meat. Right. But let's get to 1:25:58.760 --> 1:26:03.519 the issue here. I mean, you know it's not you know, like, well, well, 1:26:04.160 --> 1:26:06.960 it's not an issue about science, I think sometimes, right, 1:26:07.400 --> 1:26:09.960 I think, why why is it that you know you 1:26:10.000 --> 1:26:12.680 don't want to use certain antibiotics or certain like the 1:26:12.760 --> 1:26:16.479 antibiotics are not going to be in that beef either, right, 1:26:17.680 --> 1:26:20.160 I don't know. Well, yeah, then you know you're gonna 1:26:20.280 --> 1:26:24.120 feed them to that cow to keep it healthy. Right, 1:26:24.439 --> 1:26:28.559 But the antibiotic breaks down as well. But there against 1:26:29.640 --> 1:26:33.120 isn't the worry like the growth hormones. Okay, so that's 1:26:33.160 --> 1:26:35.840 a whole other thing, the growth hormones. So again, I 1:26:35.920 --> 1:26:38.439 don't think that there's any evidence that using the growth 1:26:38.479 --> 1:26:43.120 hormones is going to make that meat bad for your health. Now, 1:26:44.320 --> 1:26:47.000 of course the way that it's produced might make it 1:26:47.360 --> 1:26:49.360 bad for your health. Right, So if you put all 1:26:49.360 --> 1:26:51.360 this santbiotics and and all these growth hormones in it, 1:26:51.400 --> 1:26:54.680 so you can put all these animals together and not 1:26:54.800 --> 1:26:57.840 worry about them getting infections and stuff like that, you know, 1:26:57.880 --> 1:27:02.200 it's a whole production system. So I do think organic 1:27:02.280 --> 1:27:05.479 as a statement, you know, about a production system as 1:27:05.560 --> 1:27:07.960 as opposed to only health. Now, I'm not saying that's 1:27:08.000 --> 1:27:11.640 what every person who buys organic is feeling, right, I 1:27:11.720 --> 1:27:13.240 think there are a lot of people who buy organic 1:27:13.280 --> 1:27:15.680 because they worry about the health effects. You know what 1:27:15.720 --> 1:27:17.800 I'm saying, Like, there's so many things. But I think 1:27:17.800 --> 1:27:19.560 I mean that you might be making a sort of 1:27:19.720 --> 1:27:24.759 landscape animal welfare decision, or you're making a personal health decision, 1:27:25.520 --> 1:27:26.880 or you don't even know, you just know that it's 1:27:26.880 --> 1:27:28.960 supposed to be right. It's like it's supposed to it 1:27:29.040 --> 1:27:31.160 and you can afford it, right. Yeah, So it could 1:27:31.160 --> 1:27:32.760 be a lot of things to a lot of different people. 1:27:32.840 --> 1:27:35.760 But um, I know that there are you know, um, 1:27:36.320 --> 1:27:38.720 some organic farmers who think that you should be able 1:27:38.720 --> 1:27:42.840 to use genetically engine here at corn Rye. But but 1:27:43.160 --> 1:27:45.960 that's not the rules, that's not the way it's set up. 1:27:46.040 --> 1:27:48.439 But you know, actually, and if you thought about each 1:27:48.520 --> 1:27:52.120 of these individual groups, you'd have eight different kinds of 1:27:52.360 --> 1:27:55.720 organic labels, right. So I think that's just the way 1:27:55.800 --> 1:27:57.880 it is. And there was a definite, big debate with 1:27:58.040 --> 1:28:01.720 you in U. S. T A about to include genetically 1:28:01.800 --> 1:28:06.040 modified corn and soybean as being okay to be organic. 1:28:06.520 --> 1:28:09.280 There was a there was a debate and it came 1:28:09.320 --> 1:28:11.120 out with that not being in the you know, the 1:28:11.240 --> 1:28:16.200 rule being not No. I was not un gladly well, 1:28:16.280 --> 1:28:19.880 because it's it's an issue about really again not about 1:28:19.880 --> 1:28:23.920 the science, about values, right, I think that um, well, 1:28:24.040 --> 1:28:26.360 I mean, it could have said something about the safety, 1:28:26.439 --> 1:28:38.240 but I don't think that was the big issue. Let 1:28:38.320 --> 1:28:40.800 me just bring this around to you, all right about 1:28:40.840 --> 1:28:46.040 the natural part, right, Um, I think about your followers 1:28:46.080 --> 1:28:48.680 and people who are hunters who care, right, who are 1:28:48.760 --> 1:28:54.479 conservationists as well, right when you go out to hunt. Well, 1:28:54.560 --> 1:28:57.200 let's let's bring it back to fishing. Okay, So if 1:28:57.240 --> 1:29:00.800 you go fishing for trout, we you rather would you 1:29:00.880 --> 1:29:03.799 feel better about yourself? Have you caught a natural trout 1:29:04.040 --> 1:29:08.360 or one that was released by hey? Whatever? The breeding? 1:29:08.840 --> 1:29:18.320 Absolutely natural? Oh? Natural? I prefer native. Um. Like, to me, 1:29:18.479 --> 1:29:23.679 there's like extra points um in my mind, if it's 1:29:24.280 --> 1:29:28.759 a native animal native to the landscape, meaning a rainbow 1:29:28.800 --> 1:29:34.360 trout in Alaska, um, to me has far more value 1:29:34.840 --> 1:29:39.720 than a rainbow trout in Montana. M Um. I view 1:29:39.720 --> 1:29:42.120 a rainbow trout in Montana as being like a corrupted 1:29:42.920 --> 1:29:46.400 h It came from a hatchery, it's corrupted, it was 1:29:46.439 --> 1:29:49.080 brought in by man. I hunt turkeys in a lot 1:29:49.120 --> 1:29:51.759 of areas where they're not native, and when I'm hunting 1:29:51.800 --> 1:29:55.400 turkeys where they are native, it feels more special to me. Okay, 1:29:55.520 --> 1:29:57.080 that's what I want to I mean, I'm sure that 1:29:57.200 --> 1:30:01.200 a lot of your listeners feel that. I can tell 1:30:01.200 --> 1:30:03.599 you a hell a lot of trout fisherman like native 1:30:03.640 --> 1:30:09.400 brook trout, steelhead, a steelhead out of Lake Michigan. Is 1:30:09.439 --> 1:30:13.439 it a steelhead? I understand all of this, and I 1:30:13.600 --> 1:30:16.040 agree with you, but I think that it would almost 1:30:16.080 --> 1:30:19.720 be down the middle two people that are like, man, 1:30:20.120 --> 1:30:25.000 it eats the fly, it jumps, looks pretty captured. Like 1:30:25.439 --> 1:30:28.280 I just don't know. I don't know if there's that 1:30:28.479 --> 1:30:31.240 many people that have your value system, because when they're 1:30:31.240 --> 1:30:34.960 looking at trout, let me fishing generally. Put this way, 1:30:35.600 --> 1:30:38.800 you're probably right Chester. You're a big fish, big fisherman. Here. 1:30:38.840 --> 1:30:41.280 I want you to speak to because he's a guide 1:30:41.479 --> 1:30:47.120 who takes oh and so somehow his opinions. Let me 1:30:47.280 --> 1:30:49.720 let me you'll get your chance. Let me explain why 1:30:49.760 --> 1:30:51.120 I think that that's true. I don't know what the 1:30:51.160 --> 1:30:54.519 hell he's gonna say. If you talk to a person who, 1:30:54.640 --> 1:30:56.320 let's say you talk to a person who lives and 1:30:56.439 --> 1:31:02.519 breathe steelhead, a steelhead fanatic, Okay, I don't know how 1:31:02.560 --> 1:31:04.320 many there are. Let's there's ten thousand steel in the 1:31:04.400 --> 1:31:09.880 northwest part of the steel head fanatic anywhere Great Lakes Region, 1:31:11.240 --> 1:31:16.960 Pacific rim you go find me a hundred steel head fanatics, 1:31:18.040 --> 1:31:25.080 randomly sampled Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Okay, Oregon, Washington, a very 1:31:25.160 --> 1:31:28.599 small subset of fisher I'm choosing people who have who 1:31:28.640 --> 1:31:30.200 are steel head fanatics. You don't have a lot of 1:31:30.200 --> 1:31:35.760 steelhead fanatics from Kentucky. I don't have access to Go ahead, 1:31:36.439 --> 1:31:42.120 and you said to these steel head fanatics, Uh, would 1:31:42.120 --> 1:31:47.919 you rather catch a native steel head or a hatchery 1:31:48.000 --> 1:31:52.720 steel head? Ninety nine out of a hundred, ninety out 1:31:52.760 --> 1:31:56.600 of a hundred, it's gonna say, oh, native one of 1:31:56.720 --> 1:31:59.519 the fanatics. Now you've got all these people that don't 1:31:59.560 --> 1:32:06.000 know I will say, I don't know there, but I 1:32:06.040 --> 1:32:08.479 can't think of oh, you know, the all the ones 1:32:08.520 --> 1:32:11.640 I know are not friendly to not kid friendly. You 1:32:11.680 --> 1:32:14.439 don't think i'd agree with that, No, because you're guiding 1:32:14.520 --> 1:32:17.040 people who probably don't even know that rainbow troll aren't 1:32:17.120 --> 1:32:20.680 from here. I tell him all the time, like, that 1:32:20.920 --> 1:32:23.599 is a native fish you caught. That's way cooler than 1:32:23.680 --> 1:32:26.600 that one. You're that way cooler. Yeah, okay, all right, 1:32:26.680 --> 1:32:30.000 so here we are right in a way in my 1:32:30.120 --> 1:32:31.960 mind is I think it's cool you bring it up. 1:32:32.240 --> 1:32:40.679 Did they taste better? No, that's not saltwater. Okay, Sam 1:32:40.800 --> 1:32:42.600 out of the salt water tastes better Sam out of 1:32:42.600 --> 1:32:44.120 fresh water. But that's not that's nothing to do with 1:32:44.600 --> 1:32:46.280 just die right, right. But I guess I just want 1:32:46.280 --> 1:32:48.360 to bring this around to the cheerios, right. I know, 1:32:48.439 --> 1:32:51.320 I'm I'm tracking. I want to lay a very solid 1:32:51.360 --> 1:32:54.880 foundation for whatever you're gonna say. Okay, so, but those 1:32:54.880 --> 1:32:56.960 are your values, right, I mean you and there's a 1:32:57.040 --> 1:33:01.120 reason behind your values. I could explain it, but it 1:33:01.120 --> 1:33:04.519 wouldn't be like terribly convinced. And that's where I think 1:33:04.560 --> 1:33:07.840 we get in trouble with trying to get an somebody 1:33:07.880 --> 1:33:09.880 who wants to buy organic, Because Steve, I think it 1:33:09.920 --> 1:33:11.760 feels like to you probably feels like you're cheating or 1:33:11.800 --> 1:33:13.800 you're taking a shortcut when you're not. But when you're, 1:33:13.840 --> 1:33:15.720 when you don't catch like it's something that's native, right, 1:33:15.760 --> 1:33:16.920 like kind of in your head? Is that how you 1:33:16.960 --> 1:33:26.160 would frame it? No, it's um. I view. If I 1:33:26.320 --> 1:33:29.840 was going to say, what was like, what is the 1:33:29.960 --> 1:33:35.639 most purest form of nature? Okay? I love nature? Okay, 1:33:35.720 --> 1:33:40.080 I regard it as a sacred thing. Um, even though 1:33:40.160 --> 1:33:43.400 we are part of nature, right, We're like a component 1:33:43.479 --> 1:33:48.960 of nature. I somehow have more respect and admiration for 1:33:49.080 --> 1:33:52.799 the sort of natural mechanisms of Nate that the non human, 1:33:54.000 --> 1:34:00.559 non intentional mechanisms that drove the distribution of species around 1:34:00.640 --> 1:34:06.680 the planet. Okay, it's just like to see to be 1:34:06.840 --> 1:34:09.320 on the landscape with things that arrived in some way 1:34:09.439 --> 1:34:14.360 that was outside of my species manipulation seems to me 1:34:16.479 --> 1:34:22.320 more admirable. It's just the story is more intriguing to me. Yeah, 1:34:22.920 --> 1:34:24.720 So I think where this metaphor comes in is that 1:34:24.920 --> 1:34:26.840 where you kind of touched on it earlier, where you 1:34:26.920 --> 1:34:29.280 sort of said, well, Fred brought up the fact, well, 1:34:29.280 --> 1:34:31.599 we've been doing we've been doing GMOs for thousands of years, 1:34:31.640 --> 1:34:35.280 but like in your head, long term selective breeding is 1:34:35.360 --> 1:34:37.519 not the same as I think what people picture when 1:34:37.520 --> 1:34:40.920 they picture GMOs now is someone in like a lab 1:34:41.080 --> 1:34:44.320 with a hazmat suit on and like some syringes and 1:34:44.360 --> 1:34:49.560 a petri dish creating corn and then yeah, exactly, but 1:34:49.680 --> 1:34:52.080 that's but I think Fred is kind of looting the 1:34:52.120 --> 1:34:54.599 fact that that's that's not what it's really happened. Well, 1:34:54.640 --> 1:34:57.280 but but that's this is this whole issue, right, that's 1:34:57.320 --> 1:34:59.760 really interesting what you was just saying. So it goes 1:35:00.000 --> 1:35:02.280 back to these kind of values that people have, you know, 1:35:02.400 --> 1:35:06.200 like you're kind of connection to it, something that really 1:35:06.320 --> 1:35:08.160 was on the land, and you're connected to it, and 1:35:08.200 --> 1:35:10.760 you go out there and you do it yourself in 1:35:10.800 --> 1:35:12.920 a sort of natural way. You're out there trying to 1:35:13.200 --> 1:35:15.200 deal with this dead carcass that you're trying to bring 1:35:15.280 --> 1:35:18.000 back a thousand miles or whatever. Right, I mean, it's 1:35:18.080 --> 1:35:21.240 you're you're out there in that natural situation, and that's 1:35:21.360 --> 1:35:26.760 valuable to and and so getting around this whole thing 1:35:26.760 --> 1:35:29.000 about genetic engineering and natural you know, that thing of 1:35:29.040 --> 1:35:31.240 the people in the lab coats. This seems to be 1:35:31.439 --> 1:35:32.960 I think to a lot of people who want an 1:35:33.040 --> 1:35:36.000 heirloom variety or as you were saying, you know, that's 1:35:36.040 --> 1:35:39.360 pretty intriguing to hear how plants evolved, Right, people who 1:35:39.479 --> 1:35:42.400 want to have that connection to not being natural but 1:35:42.560 --> 1:35:46.360 being our cultures have over time. The Chinese culture did 1:35:46.439 --> 1:35:49.680 one thing, the Mexican culture did something else. Right, That's 1:35:49.720 --> 1:35:53.240 why Mexican hate GMO corn. Right, you know, we bread 1:35:53.320 --> 1:35:57.640 this stuff. Our ancestors bred gmo corn, you know, and 1:35:57.800 --> 1:36:00.439 now you're taking it an injecting it with all the 1:36:00.439 --> 1:36:03.960 stuff and sending it back to us. You know, we don't. 1:36:04.320 --> 1:36:07.759 You know, it's not natural, it's not our culture anymore. 1:36:08.200 --> 1:36:11.599 So I want to bring it connected to conservationists. Right. 1:36:12.000 --> 1:36:14.320 So you know the story of the chestnut tree in 1:36:14.520 --> 1:36:19.640 the US. But it was a major part of the 1:36:19.920 --> 1:36:22.640 forest in the US and it got wiped out by 1:36:22.720 --> 1:36:26.560 a fungus chestnut chestnut blight. You still can find it 1:36:26.840 --> 1:36:28.800 out there, but it's only little stumps because once it 1:36:28.840 --> 1:36:31.840 gets big enough, it gets knocked out, all right. So 1:36:32.479 --> 1:36:37.280 people have taken Chinese chestnut and crossed it with American 1:36:37.400 --> 1:36:40.640 chestnut to try to bring the Chinese chestnut's resistant to 1:36:40.720 --> 1:36:44.479 that fungus. Right, try to bring that in and then 1:36:44.960 --> 1:36:47.640 plant that out, so you have a hybrid of a 1:36:47.800 --> 1:36:51.320 Chinese chestnut and an American chestnut. You try to get 1:36:51.439 --> 1:36:53.479 rid of as many of the Chinese genes. And it's 1:36:53.560 --> 1:36:55.960 very interesting that we call them American and Chinese. Right. 1:36:56.400 --> 1:37:00.519 But now genetic engineers have come up the way of 1:37:00.640 --> 1:37:03.880 moving I think it's a wheat gene into the native 1:37:03.960 --> 1:37:07.960 American chestnut to protect it against the blight. And this 1:37:08.080 --> 1:37:09.880 has been going on for a while and there are 1:37:09.880 --> 1:37:12.160 a huge number of people, some probably some of your 1:37:12.240 --> 1:37:15.960 listeners who are real proponents of getting the chestnut back 1:37:16.080 --> 1:37:19.920 into our forests. And the way to do that is 1:37:20.000 --> 1:37:22.559 to genetically engineer the chestnut tree. So you know, it's 1:37:22.560 --> 1:37:24.639 a whole. It's a chestnut tree, more of a chestnut 1:37:24.680 --> 1:37:27.960 tree than the Chinese American hybrid. It's just put you know, 1:37:28.160 --> 1:37:31.040 a little bit of DNA in there and it protects 1:37:31.080 --> 1:37:35.800 that chestnut tree. But it's a genetically engineered, transgenic chestnuts tree. 1:37:35.880 --> 1:37:39.960 So the question the landscape back when Daniel Boone came 1:37:40.040 --> 1:37:42.920 down through the Cumberland gas right, look more like that, 1:37:43.439 --> 1:37:45.920 and look more like that, but it would be transgenic 1:37:46.040 --> 1:37:48.920 and it bears eating right right. And so what I 1:37:49.000 --> 1:37:50.920 bring up to people is how you know, like also, 1:37:51.040 --> 1:37:55.679 you know about the kittured fungus right with amphibians kittrid 1:37:55.800 --> 1:38:00.680 fungus now, but the kittured fungus has been causing the 1:38:00.720 --> 1:38:03.599 extinction of a lot of amphibians, especially in the tropics. Oh, 1:38:03.720 --> 1:38:05.120 I don't know about this. I don't know the name 1:38:05.120 --> 1:38:06.960 of it, but anyway, I mean it's a it's a 1:38:07.000 --> 1:38:08.479 big deal. So you know, one of those kind of 1:38:08.520 --> 1:38:11.160 things is wow, what about if you genetically engineered all 1:38:11.240 --> 1:38:14.400 these frogs pieces to be resistant to the kitchened fungus. 1:38:14.760 --> 1:38:17.640 So I think twenty years from now, one story is, 1:38:17.960 --> 1:38:22.360 oh no, people didn't want that genetically engineered frog, and 1:38:22.479 --> 1:38:25.360 the other as they did. So you go to the 1:38:25.400 --> 1:38:29.720 forest on one side and a no frog, not much 1:38:29.760 --> 1:38:30.960 in the way of frogs. You go on the other 1:38:31.040 --> 1:38:33.120 side and you got all these incredible frogs. And I'm 1:38:33.160 --> 1:38:36.240 sure you've seen some of these incredible frogs, right, But 1:38:36.560 --> 1:38:38.280 what does it mean to you to go out into 1:38:38.320 --> 1:38:42.240 a forest and have this experience and come back and 1:38:42.520 --> 1:38:47.439 see that? Wait? Was I in a natural forest or 1:38:47.560 --> 1:38:51.040 was this just a Hollywood movie? I just was in. Right, 1:38:51.120 --> 1:38:53.960 what does that mean in terms of nature? And where 1:38:54.000 --> 1:38:57.640 is genetic engineering taking us? And actually, I have to 1:38:57.720 --> 1:39:00.439 say there is right now that I see in the 1:39:00.520 --> 1:39:04.639 International Union of is having a meeting to discuss use 1:39:04.680 --> 1:39:08.439 of synthetic biology for conservation. Really, yeah, it's a very 1:39:08.560 --> 1:39:11.960 controversial issue. You know. I'm working with a group that's 1:39:12.000 --> 1:39:14.960 trying to get rid of rats and mice from islands 1:39:14.960 --> 1:39:18.240 where they cause loss of biodiversity, and we're using a 1:39:18.720 --> 1:39:21.680 novel technology called gene drive. Well, we're trying to it's 1:39:21.760 --> 1:39:26.200 far away. It's not there. Basically, well, basically it's a 1:39:26.240 --> 1:39:29.560 way of having inheritance that pushes the gene into a population, 1:39:30.080 --> 1:39:31.880 and in this case, we'll be pushing a gene into 1:39:31.880 --> 1:39:34.920 population who caused the eradication of the mice on that island. 1:39:35.720 --> 1:39:40.439 The gene it's a gene that makes males instead of males, 1:39:40.479 --> 1:39:43.200 and females have a whole bunch of males, Are it? 1:39:43.280 --> 1:39:46.080 I mean, this is just it's not there. I don't 1:39:46.120 --> 1:39:48.040 I don't want to. I don't want anybody to think 1:39:48.080 --> 1:39:50.160 that that's the The other is just to have basically 1:39:50.240 --> 1:39:53.120 in fertility genes, right, so those won't go, but you 1:39:53.200 --> 1:39:55.479 want to restricted to the island. But there are all 1:39:55.560 --> 1:39:57.879 sorts of things going on in terms of synthetic biology 1:39:57.920 --> 1:40:02.280 about just making the arits or something like that blackfoot 1:40:02.720 --> 1:40:06.840 to be resistant to the diseases, right, so that you 1:40:06.920 --> 1:40:11.639 can save biodiversity using genetic engineering. But the conservation biology 1:40:11.680 --> 1:40:15.719 group is really struggling with this, right I think, because 1:40:15.840 --> 1:40:17.040 and think about it. You know, it goes back to 1:40:17.120 --> 1:40:19.840 your thing about the fish, right, you know, what kind 1:40:19.880 --> 1:40:22.200 of natural world do you go out into? Is it? 1:40:22.439 --> 1:40:25.639 Is it? What what makes it natural? If you guys 1:40:25.760 --> 1:40:30.040 need someone to do this, I'll do it. Just bring me. 1:40:30.439 --> 1:40:33.960 I'll tell you chest nuts a okay, yeah, okay. The 1:40:34.120 --> 1:40:37.800 mouse thing, I think real careful how you can keep 1:40:37.800 --> 1:40:40.200 those mice and getting yeah yeah, yeah, well I think 1:40:40.240 --> 1:40:44.120 there's a lot of work being done. I can handle all. Yeah, yeah, 1:40:44.840 --> 1:40:47.240 well I think, man, I would be very nervous about 1:40:48.160 --> 1:40:52.960 right right swimming off, you're leaving, you're leaving, and he 1:40:53.080 --> 1:40:57.639 jumps on the boat right right right, So actually, ill 1:40:58.320 --> 1:41:00.800 you know that actually the work of the people I 1:41:00.880 --> 1:41:02.960 work with at NC State are trying to work on 1:41:03.680 --> 1:41:07.320 one of these gene drives that won't escape from the island. Yeah. 1:41:08.040 --> 1:41:11.800 I don't want to go into this, but it's a 1:41:11.800 --> 1:41:13.760 great it's a great question. Yeah. But I mean that's 1:41:13.880 --> 1:41:16.240 that's has been. I mean I have to say that 1:41:16.360 --> 1:41:19.920 of all the genetic engineering stuff, the scientists themselves are 1:41:19.960 --> 1:41:22.880 probably more worried than the public in some ways. So 1:41:23.040 --> 1:41:25.360 think about this thing about you have a gene that 1:41:25.520 --> 1:41:27.880 could spread into the island and get rid of all 1:41:27.920 --> 1:41:30.800 those rats and mice and and really be good for biodiversity. 1:41:30.840 --> 1:41:32.960 That's pretty clear that, you know, some people say, oh, 1:41:32.960 --> 1:41:34.400 you're gonna get rid of them, and they're part of 1:41:34.439 --> 1:41:37.919 the food chain. Now, now it would lead there's evidence 1:41:37.960 --> 1:41:40.360 that getting you know, getting rid of those leads to 1:41:40.439 --> 1:41:44.240 higher biodiversity. But you go, ask anybody who rides the 1:41:44.280 --> 1:41:48.160 New York City subways about getting rid of you know, 1:41:48.320 --> 1:41:52.760 using this technology, should get rid of the Norway rats? Yeah? Yeah, 1:41:53.000 --> 1:41:57.559 And what do they say, say do it right? Because 1:41:57.640 --> 1:42:00.680 they hate rats and it's a non native and it's 1:42:00.800 --> 1:42:05.240 and and but you know it's gonna move back to Norway, 1:42:05.360 --> 1:42:07.920 no doubt, right, I mean, I guess the thing is 1:42:08.560 --> 1:42:12.519 people the scientists who do it, who have ecological backgrounds, 1:42:12.560 --> 1:42:16.200 they're like you, they're worried about this stuff. But the 1:42:16.280 --> 1:42:19.760 public has different opinions. You know, if you don't stereotyping 1:42:19.760 --> 1:42:25.720 me man generally not like on the food thing. It 1:42:25.840 --> 1:42:29.640 doesn't like just I could. It doesn't matter to me 1:42:30.680 --> 1:42:32.360 if my kids I had a bowl of cereal, I don't. 1:42:32.479 --> 1:42:34.560 I don't really like cereal. I mean, I'll eat it, 1:42:34.640 --> 1:42:39.400 but like it has no barrier whatsoever? What I do 1:42:39.479 --> 1:42:42.519 watch out for? And I should ask you about this? Um. 1:42:43.560 --> 1:42:45.160 Somehow I got in my head in some kind of 1:42:45.240 --> 1:42:50.120 convincing way that I don't like him. Uh, I don't 1:42:50.120 --> 1:42:55.800 like them, the milk with bull vine growth hormone. I 1:42:55.880 --> 1:42:58.320 was like, we can afford the other kind, so't I'm 1:42:58.320 --> 1:43:00.479 not saying I don't know. I don't know, but I'm like, 1:43:00.640 --> 1:43:01.920 it's just not a big deal. We can buy the 1:43:01.960 --> 1:43:03.360 other They don't go through that much, but we can 1:43:03.400 --> 1:43:05.000 buy the other kind. And I don't need to, like, 1:43:05.120 --> 1:43:07.719 wonder if there's something I'm supposed to pay attention to. Yeah, 1:43:08.240 --> 1:43:10.760 that's probably a lot of people, like I don't really know, 1:43:11.439 --> 1:43:13.599 but it's know something that I don't have the energy 1:43:13.640 --> 1:43:15.680 to go find out right. And that's that whole thing 1:43:15.760 --> 1:43:18.439 again that the people in the developed world to get 1:43:18.439 --> 1:43:20.960 accused of. Wait a minute, you know, it's easy for 1:43:21.040 --> 1:43:23.640 you to be against genetic engineering because you've got the 1:43:23.720 --> 1:43:26.240 extra money to buy that stuff, the extra whatever, like, 1:43:28.280 --> 1:43:32.160 but people in the developing world needs g amounts. That's what. 1:43:32.240 --> 1:43:33.880 That's what. That's That's a great segue. And what I 1:43:33.960 --> 1:43:37.519 want to ask you next seven and a half billion people, 1:43:37.840 --> 1:43:42.680 seven point three what is it? Like I said, just 1:43:42.800 --> 1:43:46.040 round up to COVID trimmed off. So no, no, not, 1:43:47.960 --> 1:43:51.000 I mean I mean not enough. I mean that not 1:43:51.240 --> 1:43:53.840 enough to change not enough to change a decimal. I 1:43:53.880 --> 1:43:56.880 don't think so whatever some seven and a half billion 1:43:56.920 --> 1:44:01.800 people on the planet, and buy your understanding if we 1:44:01.880 --> 1:44:06.240 were going to globally Okay, we're gonna we we come 1:44:06.320 --> 1:44:11.920 to this global decision. Uh, we're done with GMOs. No more. 1:44:12.000 --> 1:44:14.880 I can't put them in the ground. Um. Is it 1:44:15.000 --> 1:44:19.800 true that we would that you would buy necessity, need 1:44:19.880 --> 1:44:23.320 to Probably you would buy necessy probably be starving off 1:44:23.360 --> 1:44:25.960 a couple of billions of that seven and a half 1:44:26.000 --> 1:44:32.120 billion people, that you would starve them off. How do 1:44:32.240 --> 1:44:34.400 I answer that? I think it's like yes or no. 1:44:38.120 --> 1:44:39.439 I mean, if I had to give you a yes 1:44:39.560 --> 1:44:43.280 or no, I'd say no, you wouldn't You wouldn't necessarily 1:44:43.320 --> 1:44:46.320 be starving them off, all right? Um, But I think 1:44:46.360 --> 1:44:49.120 it's it's a lot of people use that as an 1:44:49.200 --> 1:44:52.599 argument for GMOs. That's the that's the one that resonates 1:44:52.600 --> 1:44:57.680 with people. So I guess this is this is a 1:44:57.680 --> 1:44:59.120 tough one for me because I want to go back 1:45:01.200 --> 1:45:07.000 in the place where genetics were, which is pretty incredible, right. 1:45:07.040 --> 1:45:08.720 I told you when they made that tobacco plant, I 1:45:08.840 --> 1:45:12.680 was like, whoa, But things are changing that you know what, 1:45:13.120 --> 1:45:15.479 genetic engineering. We've got better go back to what is 1:45:15.520 --> 1:45:18.240 genetic engineering? Right, it's those people in the white coats 1:45:18.400 --> 1:45:21.400 right who are doing this, right, But people in white 1:45:21.439 --> 1:45:24.760 coats do a lot of things, and one is to 1:45:24.840 --> 1:45:27.120 actually take a gene from a bacteria and stick it 1:45:27.200 --> 1:45:30.360 in a plant. Another thing that they found that they 1:45:30.400 --> 1:45:34.599 could do is take a gene from a wild tomato 1:45:35.080 --> 1:45:38.880 that made the tomato resistant and just put that gene in, right, 1:45:38.960 --> 1:45:41.880 So they're not taking it from something really weird to 1:45:41.960 --> 1:45:46.479 taking something similar, so that where you're taking it, yeah, 1:45:47.439 --> 1:45:50.640 tomatoes and putting tomatoes and tomatoes. Right. So if you 1:45:50.680 --> 1:45:54.240 start out with the bacteria, it's called transgenic. Moving something 1:45:54.400 --> 1:45:59.280 trans across the species barriers, right, So that's transgenic. This 1:45:59.479 --> 1:46:02.920 is called cysgenic because it's similar, right, So you put 1:46:03.000 --> 1:46:07.479 it in and it's not so weird system. And now 1:46:07.600 --> 1:46:09.720 the big thing is something new. Instead of moving char 1:46:09.840 --> 1:46:14.439 into strawberries, you'd be moving like char into another charge right. Yeah, yeah, 1:46:14.600 --> 1:46:16.840 char from you know, one region of the country into 1:46:16.840 --> 1:46:20.439 another one to make it more tolerant um. But now 1:46:20.560 --> 1:46:23.880 there's something called gene editing, right, and this is something 1:46:24.000 --> 1:46:26.640 that's happened with humans in China, right where you go 1:46:26.800 --> 1:46:30.040 in and you actually just tweak a human gene, right, 1:46:30.160 --> 1:46:33.680 But can you tweak just a plant gene? Right? It's 1:46:33.920 --> 1:46:36.200 you're not doing anything coming from any place else. You're 1:46:36.240 --> 1:46:39.519 just changing that gene. And that's called gene editing, and 1:46:39.600 --> 1:46:42.479 it's just one kind of genetting. You use genetting for 1:46:42.520 --> 1:46:44.839 a lot of new things. It's this thing called crisper 1:46:45.240 --> 1:46:48.720 that everybody talks about now, right, So that scene is 1:46:48.800 --> 1:46:52.519 somewhat different by some people because it's more natural because 1:46:52.560 --> 1:46:55.920 it's not transgenic. Right. But in terms of what you 1:46:56.000 --> 1:46:57.639 can do to the plant, you can do a lot 1:46:57.760 --> 1:47:00.320 of new things. But what's coming along behind I ain't. 1:47:00.360 --> 1:47:03.880 That is something even to me more interesting because as 1:47:03.960 --> 1:47:06.519 you know, like with human diseases, some human diseases are 1:47:06.520 --> 1:47:08.840 caused by one gene. So you can think, oh, well, 1:47:08.880 --> 1:47:12.719 we could fix that one gene, yeah, right, But most 1:47:12.840 --> 1:47:15.799 human diseases are caused by ten to a hundred genes 1:47:16.120 --> 1:47:19.439 acting together. You can't make a cure where you're changing 1:47:19.479 --> 1:47:22.080 a hundred genes at least with the technology we have now. 1:47:22.600 --> 1:47:24.280 And the same thing with a plant. If you want 1:47:24.320 --> 1:47:27.240 to increase plant yield, it seems real simple. Oh, we're 1:47:27.240 --> 1:47:28.840 just gonna put this one gene and it's gonna be 1:47:28.880 --> 1:47:31.600 salt tolerant. Well, that happens once in a while. But 1:47:31.680 --> 1:47:34.000 the way progress is really being made now by the 1:47:34.080 --> 1:47:39.080 big companies is they're doing something called genomic selection. And 1:47:39.400 --> 1:47:41.040 again we can get into a lot of diesels, but 1:47:41.120 --> 1:47:44.320 they're looking at the whole genome of the plants they're 1:47:44.360 --> 1:47:48.479 selecting and coming up with the best combinations that fit together. 1:47:48.960 --> 1:47:51.880 And it requires a lot of computer power, a lot 1:47:51.960 --> 1:47:56.680 of this whole thing about um, machine learning and and 1:47:56.840 --> 1:47:59.519 all that artificial intelligence has come up with the best ways. 1:48:00.080 --> 1:48:04.479 So plant breeding to get higher yields is happening because 1:48:04.520 --> 1:48:09.160 of high tech. But the new high tech is not transgenics. 1:48:10.240 --> 1:48:15.599 That's way back. So the you know, so when people say, oh, 1:48:15.720 --> 1:48:17.280 we're never going to feed the world unless we have 1:48:17.360 --> 1:48:19.479 genetic engineering, and say, well, what do you what do 1:48:19.520 --> 1:48:21.880 you mean by genetic engine You mean good plant breeding. 1:48:23.680 --> 1:48:27.040 Let's have good plant breeding, right, and so good plant 1:48:27.080 --> 1:48:29.640 breeding can do a lot, but it's no longer this 1:48:29.880 --> 1:48:34.320 narrow thing that happened that everybody was focused on, and 1:48:34.439 --> 1:48:37.479 this other stuff is going on, and again nobody knows 1:48:37.560 --> 1:48:41.760 about it. It's like the genetically engineered tobacco, right, it's 1:48:41.800 --> 1:48:44.400 in the background. It's it happened now, but this stuff 1:48:44.479 --> 1:48:48.160 is coming, and you know, for good or bad. I 1:48:48.240 --> 1:48:49.800 think a lot of the big companies are hiring a 1:48:49.840 --> 1:48:52.519 lot of computer people to help them with this stuff 1:48:52.560 --> 1:48:54.320 as opposed to people out in the field, because you 1:48:54.439 --> 1:48:59.559 can improve a plant without looking at it. There's another argument, 1:48:59.680 --> 1:49:05.360 another their pro gmo argument, and I keep using that's okay, 1:49:05.400 --> 1:49:08.400 we all know, we don't talk about is that from 1:49:08.439 --> 1:49:13.000 a conservation perspective? Is that I've heard people say from 1:49:13.040 --> 1:49:18.400 a wildlife conservation perspective, Um, they work better, they put 1:49:18.479 --> 1:49:22.439 off more bushels per acre, so it winds up being less. 1:49:22.760 --> 1:49:26.479 Land needs to be converted into monoculture. Agriculture to meet 1:49:26.520 --> 1:49:31.479 our needs because it's just more efficient. And if you, uh, look, 1:49:31.560 --> 1:49:34.000 if you're a duck hunter and that you and you're 1:49:34.000 --> 1:49:37.120 worried about the prairie pothole region, and when when grain 1:49:37.200 --> 1:49:40.960 prices are high, more of the prairie pothole region gets tilled, 1:49:41.080 --> 1:49:44.000 and it gets tilled closer to the pond's edge, and 1:49:44.160 --> 1:49:48.519 more duck habitat is lost. Um, why not solve that 1:49:48.600 --> 1:49:51.840 with more efficient agricultural systems so we have more ducks. 1:49:52.240 --> 1:49:55.080 That's another argument right. I like the efficiency argument and 1:49:55.720 --> 1:49:59.599 conserving land. But let's ask that question about what has 1:49:59.720 --> 1:50:06.040 jen engineering done so far since to increase yields of corn, 1:50:06.200 --> 1:50:13.640 soybean and cotton. I can a lot no, alright, so, 1:50:13.960 --> 1:50:18.519 so yields of corn per acre? Let me yeah, hold on, 1:50:18.720 --> 1:50:20.720 let me give you the deal here, right, Yeah, So 1:50:20.880 --> 1:50:23.880 Monsanto had an article published in a peer review journal 1:50:23.920 --> 1:50:26.560 showing how this has been increasing. That so when we 1:50:26.640 --> 1:50:28.519 were doing the six d page study for the National 1:50:28.520 --> 1:50:31.120 Academy of Sciences, right, we got down on it, right. 1:50:31.160 --> 1:50:34.160 We looked carefully at the data, same data they used, 1:50:34.680 --> 1:50:36.960 all right, And if you look at yields of corn, 1:50:37.280 --> 1:50:41.800 soybean and cotton over time, right, and we were looking 1:50:41.880 --> 1:50:45.720 from nineteen eighty to two thousand fifteen. I think it 1:50:45.920 --> 1:50:49.519 was where we ended to look at what's happening to yields. 1:50:49.960 --> 1:50:53.320 They're going up, you know, this fluctuation from year to year, 1:50:53.439 --> 1:50:57.760 like like per unit of space, like per per acre yield. 1:50:57.920 --> 1:51:00.840 Yield per acre for cotton, soybean, cotton have been going 1:51:01.000 --> 1:51:03.599 up since nineteen eight They've been going up since nineteen thirty. 1:51:03.680 --> 1:51:05.360 But I mean we were looking at the data as 1:51:05.479 --> 1:51:08.000 was months out off about nineteen eighty and you see 1:51:08.040 --> 1:51:10.720 the yields going up on all three crops. And then 1:51:11.840 --> 1:51:14.560 happens and all those crops are now genetically engineered in 1:51:14.600 --> 1:51:16.960 the US. Not every one of them, but most of them. 1:51:17.160 --> 1:51:21.400 And you ask, well, the the yields going up faster 1:51:21.600 --> 1:51:27.400 because I spiked, Yeah, not at all. Really, that's the data. 1:51:27.600 --> 1:51:32.000 Then I can show you that line, that is a 1:51:32.160 --> 1:51:36.400 straight line. Now some people will say, so what did 1:51:36.520 --> 1:51:38.720 we gain? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So some people say, oh, well, 1:51:38.760 --> 1:51:40.720 if we have climate change and all of that, if 1:51:40.800 --> 1:51:43.200 we didn't have genetic engineering, would be going down. But 1:51:43.280 --> 1:51:46.799 if you look at wheat or oats, remember not genetically unshared, 1:51:46.800 --> 1:51:49.000 those yields are still also going up the same way. 1:51:49.280 --> 1:51:51.719 So there really isn't the evidence in the United States 1:51:52.240 --> 1:51:55.040 so far. I'm not saying it can't happen. People have 1:51:55.120 --> 1:51:58.880 been trying since the nineteen eighties to increase the efficiency 1:51:58.920 --> 1:52:03.040 of photosynthesis, but it's a hard problem. They haven't solved it. 1:52:04.120 --> 1:52:06.439 So let me put I want the same thing. Maybe 1:52:06.439 --> 1:52:09.519 you guys got into this or not. If you looked 1:52:09.600 --> 1:52:16.280 at amphibians that or pollinators or whatever the hell monarchy waterflies, 1:52:16.280 --> 1:52:19.799 I don't know, And you look at like amphibian counts 1:52:19.920 --> 1:52:29.960 from adjacent wetlands over from fifteen in does that pivot 1:52:30.080 --> 1:52:34.000 some way? Good? Good question. Okay, So there I can 1:52:34.080 --> 1:52:38.799 give you another answer, not for those amphibians, but for insects. Okay, 1:52:39.600 --> 1:52:45.080 So by not using as much insecticide, there's more bio 1:52:45.120 --> 1:52:48.760 diversity of insects in the non you know, in the 1:52:48.880 --> 1:52:51.519 GMO fields than in the fields that are not GMO 1:52:51.600 --> 1:52:53.519 that are spread with the insects side of course, right, 1:52:54.240 --> 1:52:57.320 I mean that that is there. So so you are 1:52:57.680 --> 1:52:59.599 helping in the way of concertion. But then there's an 1:52:59.600 --> 1:53:03.040 efferent different question here about you wanting to keep your 1:53:03.120 --> 1:53:08.080 little areas that are natural from going into farming. So well, 1:53:08.080 --> 1:53:11.560 I'm good, and I build this genetically engineered crop that 1:53:11.760 --> 1:53:16.200 is highly tolerant or it's fair. It's fair, it's fair, 1:53:16.560 --> 1:53:19.720 like prayer po whole region whatever. Sure, I would like 1:53:19.800 --> 1:53:23.679 to I would like to retain as much waterfowl nesting 1:53:23.760 --> 1:53:27.240 habitat as possible. So I all I wanted to bring 1:53:27.320 --> 1:53:31.439 up is if some scientists uses genetic engineering in a 1:53:31.520 --> 1:53:36.000 way to make those areas commercially useful, because now they 1:53:36.040 --> 1:53:38.880 have a plant that will survive better and also produce 1:53:38.960 --> 1:53:41.479 something for humans so we could have more meat and 1:53:41.600 --> 1:53:45.840 not worry about efficiency of eating being a vegetarian. Right, 1:53:46.400 --> 1:53:48.680 I mean, so I guess what I what we get to? 1:53:48.880 --> 1:53:50.880 You know, of course I'm with this Genetic Engineering and 1:53:50.960 --> 1:53:54.160 Society Center, you know, to keep asking these questions as 1:53:54.240 --> 1:53:56.760 deeply as we can to ask Wait a minute, you 1:53:56.840 --> 1:53:58.680 have a nice story, but is that the only way 1:53:58.720 --> 1:54:02.160 the story unfolds? Where it could unfold in a different way. 1:54:02.200 --> 1:54:04.680 I think what we find is that we need a 1:54:04.840 --> 1:54:07.760 lot of brains to be thinking about how it's going 1:54:07.800 --> 1:54:09.519 to be used, not whether we can make it. You know, 1:54:09.880 --> 1:54:12.479 I'm sure you have examples as in hunting, right. You know, 1:54:12.560 --> 1:54:15.559 you can make something, it's how you use it that determines, 1:54:15.880 --> 1:54:19.160 you know, whether it's an ethical way animals and stuff 1:54:19.200 --> 1:54:22.920 like that. So I think that's important. Let's say we're hiking, yeah, 1:54:23.120 --> 1:54:27.000 and you you fall off a cliff there's no chance 1:54:27.040 --> 1:54:31.680 of surviving, and I yelled down, Um, so are GMOs 1:54:31.760 --> 1:54:37.040 good or bad? What would you yell back? Yes? And no? 1:54:43.080 --> 1:54:46.200 But I mean that's the deal, right? Yeah? I had 1:54:46.280 --> 1:54:49.840 that with some students, right, they had this, So let's 1:54:49.840 --> 1:54:57.120 come to the chase, right right? Huh? So I would 1:54:57.200 --> 1:55:00.360 would say anybody who says to me should have a 1:55:00.440 --> 1:55:04.160 moratorium on genetic engineering research. I think such a more 1:55:04.320 --> 1:55:07.920 term would be a very bad idea, right, But I 1:55:08.040 --> 1:55:10.240 think that we need to be very careful in the 1:55:10.280 --> 1:55:12.320 way we use these things. And I think there are 1:55:12.360 --> 1:55:16.560 examples of these where if it's not interesting. Example, in 1:55:16.720 --> 1:55:20.680 in Africa, Burkino Fosso is the first country that said, hey, 1:55:20.800 --> 1:55:23.880 bring me genetically engineered cotton that has that BT and 1:55:24.040 --> 1:55:26.720 that has that protein that it kills caterpillars, and we 1:55:26.760 --> 1:55:29.240 won't be able to won't be using as much insecticide, 1:55:29.240 --> 1:55:33.160 which we can't afford anyway. Right, So they get this 1:55:33.280 --> 1:55:36.680 genetically engineered cotton, they start growing it, and they produce 1:55:37.320 --> 1:55:41.040 more per hectare then they would have without it, and 1:55:41.120 --> 1:55:43.880 they used less insecticide and a since you think the 1:55:43.920 --> 1:55:46.880 farmers are really happy about that, right, and everybody should 1:55:46.880 --> 1:55:49.160 be happy about it, except that they didn't breed it, right. 1:55:49.200 --> 1:55:51.280 They brought over sort of an American variety that they 1:55:51.360 --> 1:55:55.080 back crossed into the cross sit into the African type. 1:55:55.280 --> 1:55:59.000 The African type in the Franco African countries produces longer 1:56:00.040 --> 1:56:04.200 fread to count, right, and so they were producing more, 1:56:04.400 --> 1:56:08.280 but it wasn't of the quality that was needed, so 1:56:08.440 --> 1:56:11.080 it sat on the market and the country then banned 1:56:11.160 --> 1:56:13.640 it again. Right, So it's it's how you do it. 1:56:13.720 --> 1:56:15.120 It would have been a great thing if they had 1:56:15.160 --> 1:56:18.160 done it right. And other examples had a lot of 1:56:18.280 --> 1:56:24.360 shitty cotton a lot of Americans. But but I just 1:56:24.440 --> 1:56:26.840 want to bring another really interesting example to me is 1:56:26.840 --> 1:56:32.839 about corn. Is that actually using traditional breeding they Jeanette, 1:56:32.920 --> 1:56:36.520 they bread corn to be more drought tolerant, and who 1:56:36.560 --> 1:56:39.560 could be against drought toners like mother and apple pie, right, 1:56:40.320 --> 1:56:43.880 But what it was interesting was that when they gave 1:56:43.960 --> 1:56:46.400 it to farmers to farm, and you think, oh, this 1:56:46.520 --> 1:56:49.000 is gonna be good because it's gonna lower the impact 1:56:49.080 --> 1:56:53.280 of drought. But there's a spacing that most of your 1:56:53.400 --> 1:56:55.600 you know, some of your listeners know when they're planting corn, 1:56:55.680 --> 1:56:58.040 they planted a certain spacing. But if you plant the 1:56:58.120 --> 1:57:00.600 corn too close, you get to a point in a 1:57:00.720 --> 1:57:03.920 normal year, you cause drought to happen because the corn 1:57:03.960 --> 1:57:05.920 plants are just sucking up all the order. So there's 1:57:05.920 --> 1:57:09.400 a certain optimal distance. Well, if you have drought tolerant corn, 1:57:09.440 --> 1:57:12.280 you can plan it closer in a good year and 1:57:12.360 --> 1:57:16.080 get higher yield and then the field though still drought sensitive. 1:57:17.360 --> 1:57:21.120 Is it making sense right? Each plant is drought tolerant, 1:57:21.160 --> 1:57:24.280 but it's the way the farmer plants it. So this 1:57:24.440 --> 1:57:26.920 is why yes and no, is that we have to 1:57:27.000 --> 1:57:30.800 figure out what is our goal with this genetically engineered stuff. 1:57:30.800 --> 1:57:33.920 You know, is it for more sustainability of specific farmers 1:57:34.040 --> 1:57:36.920 or global issues. I don't know that that's a bad 1:57:37.040 --> 1:57:40.160 thing that there that you're having higher yields and it's 1:57:40.160 --> 1:57:43.360 still sensitive to drought because we do have crop insurance 1:57:43.400 --> 1:57:45.960 in the U S. It's underline. And also you're talking 1:57:45.960 --> 1:57:50.160 about it, you know global economy where wealth too bad 1:57:50.280 --> 1:57:52.760 for Iowa? But man am I making a killing in 1:57:52.840 --> 1:57:55.520 North Carolina because they haven't a problem. Uh you know, 1:57:55.760 --> 1:57:58.960 I mean, you know, there's all I'm trying to get 1:57:59.000 --> 1:58:00.520 out here is I don't have an So it's it's 1:58:00.560 --> 1:58:03.720 a in the system. It's a whole system that you're 1:58:03.760 --> 1:58:06.280 dealing with. So when we talk about what are the 1:58:06.360 --> 1:58:09.080 issues with GMOs, and this is this whole thing about 1:58:09.320 --> 1:58:12.680 our group, the Genetic Engineering Society Center, is to sort 1:58:12.720 --> 1:58:15.680 of dig a little deeper. And it's not just about 1:58:16.120 --> 1:58:20.080 the genetic insurance any technology as they're coming on. We 1:58:20.160 --> 1:58:22.160 have to think about them more in terms of what 1:58:22.280 --> 1:58:26.240 the repercussions are. I don't. I'm not, you know, against risk. 1:58:26.320 --> 1:58:28.400 I mean, we always have to take risk. You always 1:58:28.440 --> 1:58:30.720 have to answer ask that question if you don't use GMOs, 1:58:30.880 --> 1:58:32.880 are we're gonna be able to feed the world? Right? 1:58:33.160 --> 1:58:34.800 So you better have an answer to that about how 1:58:34.840 --> 1:58:36.640 you're going to do that if you don't use GMOs. 1:58:36.720 --> 1:58:38.760 And I would say that there are some places where 1:58:38.800 --> 1:58:42.480 you really GMOs have decreased the amount of pest side 1:58:42.600 --> 1:58:47.160 used by farmers in um, certain in certain countries in 1:58:47.240 --> 1:58:51.160 South Africa's an example where decreasing pest side use meant 1:58:51.240 --> 1:58:53.280 that fewer farmers round up in the hospital at the 1:58:53.360 --> 1:58:57.440 end of the season. Well that's the safety of GMOs. 1:58:57.600 --> 1:59:00.880 That's interesting, And I said, I'd come I should make 1:59:00.920 --> 1:59:05.640 this one comment. Uh, there's a group called Simplot in Idaho. Right, 1:59:05.720 --> 1:59:08.000 they breed potatoes. Well, they bread a potato that has 1:59:08.080 --> 1:59:14.080 lower acrylamide in it. Acrylamide when you fry your potatoes 1:59:14.520 --> 1:59:17.920 or toast your bread, turns into something that is considered 1:59:17.920 --> 1:59:23.600 a probable carcinogen. So those potatoes are possibly less Carson 1:59:23.640 --> 1:59:27.320 and genetic if you're eating French fries. Yeah, but then again, 1:59:27.360 --> 1:59:33.120 you shouldn't eat French fries. Right, Your simplot gotta start 1:59:33.760 --> 1:59:37.120 you hear that story? Simplot was his due Jr. Simplot, 1:59:37.680 --> 1:59:42.080 and it was during the depression. Teachers were being paid 1:59:43.040 --> 1:59:47.880 with these bonds and Idaho, okay, they're being paid with 1:59:48.000 --> 1:59:50.280 bonds and the bonds had to mature over some period 1:59:50.320 --> 1:59:55.960 of time. It was like a deferred payment. Simplot. He 1:59:58.640 --> 2:00:02.400 wanted to like, I'm not sure about the sequence, but 2:00:02.440 --> 2:00:05.720 basically started buying these bonds and people fifty cents on 2:00:05.800 --> 2:00:11.280 the dollar because they need money, gets himself a bunch 2:00:11.360 --> 2:00:16.560 of pigs piglets, and takes him out in the desert, 2:00:16.920 --> 2:00:19.840 gets a big cauldron, takes him out in the desert 2:00:20.080 --> 2:00:25.240 and starts shooting wild horses to fatten those hogs. That's 2:00:25.280 --> 2:00:28.840 how he got to start an egg And that's Simplot today. 2:00:29.520 --> 2:00:31.800 My goodness, Well I didn't know that story. I pad 2:00:31.840 --> 2:00:37.360 toxic plasma risk aversion. That's how he got his That's 2:00:37.400 --> 2:00:41.040 not that's what started that. Yeah, my buddy's kids just 2:00:41.080 --> 2:00:43.680 want to work for Simplot. I bet he don't even 2:00:43.680 --> 2:00:50.720 know that. Yeah, well the world is complicated, so I think, 2:00:50.800 --> 2:00:54.240 you know, taking a certain amount of step back and ask. 2:00:54.320 --> 2:00:56.120 You know, when somebody gives you these lines, you know, 2:00:56.200 --> 2:00:58.600 these simple answers. GMO is a good, GMOs are bad, 2:00:59.160 --> 2:01:02.360 you know, I don't know. It's it's harder to when 2:01:02.400 --> 2:01:06.280 you jump off a click. Okay, they're okay to eat. 2:01:06.840 --> 2:01:09.360 So I think the ones that have been tested and 2:01:09.400 --> 2:01:11.920 are on the market today, I would agree that those 2:01:11.960 --> 2:01:13.720 are fine to eat, and I eat them all the time. 2:01:14.480 --> 2:01:17.080 I probably have eaten more GMO sweet corn than most 2:01:17.120 --> 2:01:20.640 people because we were growing that stuff. So I didn't mind. 2:01:20.920 --> 2:01:25.000 I I you know, for ethics or health or combination. 2:01:25.480 --> 2:01:29.000 I told you I was a hippie, so I was well. 2:01:29.080 --> 2:01:31.760 I was. I was hitchhike and cross country wound up. 2:01:31.800 --> 2:01:36.720 But somebody's farm out in Nevada, and he wouldn't need anything. 2:01:36.760 --> 2:01:39.960 He didn't kill himself. I thought, now that made sense 2:01:40.040 --> 2:01:42.720 to me. I'm not gonna eat anything less kill it myself. 2:01:43.920 --> 2:01:47.320 That's how I started. And I got a bunch of chickens, 2:01:47.640 --> 2:01:50.200 and after they stopped laying eggs, I couldn't kill the suckers. 2:01:50.480 --> 2:01:52.120 So that was the end of it, and I became 2:01:52.160 --> 2:01:54.040 a vegetarian. How many years ago was that when I 2:01:54.120 --> 2:01:58.240 was nineteen? No kid, yeah now now now I'm just 2:01:58.360 --> 2:02:00.600 a vegetarian, right, I don't think about that every day. 2:02:00.680 --> 2:02:02.280 Oh no, no, I'm not gonna let me ask you. 2:02:02.720 --> 2:02:04.160 Let me ask you this one because I was we 2:02:04.240 --> 2:02:06.200 got my friends, got some kids that are vegetarians, and 2:02:06.240 --> 2:02:08.120 I was messing with them because they always eat marshmallows. 2:02:08.600 --> 2:02:15.680 Neat marshmallows. No oh wait, wait wait, vegetarian, vegetarian eat marshmallows. 2:02:15.680 --> 2:02:18.840 I'm a vegetarian who eats more shows on campfires because 2:02:18.880 --> 2:02:25.720 that's natural. Yeah, oh man, you guys got anymore? This 2:02:25.800 --> 2:02:29.000 has been great. This is what I knew, what happened. Yeah, 2:02:30.600 --> 2:02:32.720 you know what this is. This tells you the power 2:02:32.800 --> 2:02:35.560 of krint. I told crim to find someone said I 2:02:35.600 --> 2:02:41.560 don't want like an ideologue? G m O ideologue? Did 2:02:41.680 --> 2:02:44.400 she say, Steve, He's gonna want to know what that 2:02:44.560 --> 2:02:49.520 word means. Like a person driven, a person driven by 2:02:49.840 --> 2:02:58.400 a sort of like severely drawn perspective. Would happen ilogue ideologue? Yeah? 2:02:58.560 --> 2:03:02.200 Like a person who's you know, full of fired brimstone. 2:03:04.320 --> 2:03:07.320 I've got a question. So in Wisconsin, if you look 2:03:07.360 --> 2:03:10.680 at a lot of these corn fields, they all look 2:03:10.720 --> 2:03:13.400 the same. And some of these little farms where I 2:03:13.480 --> 2:03:18.560 grew up are organic dairy farms and they have, you know, 2:03:18.840 --> 2:03:22.640 a hundred two hundred acres, and their corn that they're 2:03:22.680 --> 2:03:26.680 feeding their cows looks exactly the same. Is the neighbor 2:03:26.800 --> 2:03:29.880 next door who does not have an organic dairy farm. 2:03:31.120 --> 2:03:34.440 Is that corn that those because it like looks exactly 2:03:34.520 --> 2:03:39.960 the same? Probably gmo corn. Well it could be, of course, 2:03:40.120 --> 2:03:42.320 I can't tell you. But you could have two fields 2:03:42.400 --> 2:03:44.920 next to each other, one being GMO and one being 2:03:45.000 --> 2:03:47.440 non gmo, and they will look the same. So let's 2:03:47.480 --> 2:03:50.040 go back to when we said, how do you get 2:03:50.080 --> 2:03:55.520 it so that you could have this SPT this protein 2:03:56.000 --> 2:03:58.360 in the corn and not have the insects adapt to it. 2:03:58.760 --> 2:04:00.640 The way that that would be done is by having 2:04:00.720 --> 2:04:03.600 the BT corn that you know that produces that protein 2:04:03.720 --> 2:04:07.920 and the non BT corn. Right, So, farmers, even if 2:04:07.960 --> 2:04:10.680 you're a conventional farmer in the Midwest, many of them 2:04:10.760 --> 2:04:14.600 plant that refuge. Some planted to ones that are herbicide tolerant, 2:04:14.640 --> 2:04:17.960 but some planted to non gmo. So the companies have 2:04:18.200 --> 2:04:23.400 decreased the effort they put into producing new non GMO varieties, 2:04:23.760 --> 2:04:27.200 so the yield on a non GMO variety has become 2:04:27.240 --> 2:04:29.600 a little bit less than what you get from a GMO. 2:04:30.120 --> 2:04:32.920 Forget about the insects and anything, just because the breeding 2:04:32.960 --> 2:04:36.400 effort isn't is as great. But they typically are are 2:04:36.520 --> 2:04:39.040 not that different. So yes, you could be looking at it. 2:04:39.280 --> 2:04:42.000 A breeder, you know, as great eyes were looking at 2:04:42.040 --> 2:04:45.320 the differences, might see it, but you probably wouldn't. I mean, 2:04:45.400 --> 2:04:49.000 the differences among varieties about hybrids is greater than the 2:04:49.080 --> 2:04:52.760 difference between the GMO and the non GMO. I know, 2:04:53.280 --> 2:04:55.240 go ahead, you gotta follow up. I got a question. 2:04:55.280 --> 2:05:00.320 I got a question for Phil. Yeah, when you're shopping 2:05:00.360 --> 2:05:02.880 for groceries, do you are you like when you're picking 2:05:02.960 --> 2:05:05.320 cereal out? Are you keeping an eyeball out on GMO? 2:05:06.320 --> 2:05:10.040 Oh no, no, no, I mean I'm glad you's gonna 2:05:10.040 --> 2:05:11.640 see if I was. I was looking to see if 2:05:11.680 --> 2:05:13.480 this has changed your mind about it. I do occasionally 2:05:13.480 --> 2:05:15.080 shop at the co op Steve, and I've got a 2:05:15.120 --> 2:05:19.840 great cat psychologist if we need one. There's just so 2:05:19.920 --> 2:05:24.000 many buzzwords these days that people are people are are 2:05:24.160 --> 2:05:29.240 afraid of, uh, you know, like GMO, gluten, MSG and 2:05:29.360 --> 2:05:32.520 for various reasons. Uh. So it's it's nice to sit 2:05:32.560 --> 2:05:34.960 down and like and actually just throughout the facts and 2:05:35.360 --> 2:05:37.040 have you you know, like Steve said, you're falling off 2:05:37.080 --> 2:05:40.880 a cliff. I still don't have the answer for you. 2:05:41.640 --> 2:05:43.960 So yeah, that's because it's it's just to the point 2:05:44.000 --> 2:05:45.640 where you can look at a can of mountain dew 2:05:45.680 --> 2:05:48.080 and it says gluten free and it's like, yeah, no, ship, 2:05:48.720 --> 2:05:51.560 just like like that's how that's how these companies have 2:05:51.680 --> 2:05:53.840 to label things these days because they're people are afraid 2:05:53.840 --> 2:05:56.200 of things and they don't know why. I don't know why. 2:05:56.280 --> 2:05:59.120 And they have the money to pay the extra two cents. Right, 2:05:59.600 --> 2:06:02.440 it's not such a big deal and whatever if Company 2:06:02.520 --> 2:06:05.440 A is doing it, company they all jump on you. 2:06:06.680 --> 2:06:09.640 But you're gonna ask something else. No, No, I'm okay, 2:06:09.920 --> 2:06:13.440 Well no I don't know what was it. Well, I 2:06:13.600 --> 2:06:18.440 was just saying like like all that all that corn 2:06:18.840 --> 2:06:22.600 is modified over time, no matter what. So like I 2:06:22.720 --> 2:06:25.800 just don't quite I don't quite get it, you know, 2:06:26.480 --> 2:06:30.840 like in a way. So so it's become a big 2:06:30.920 --> 2:06:34.760 deal because of the pressure on it. Right, Yeah, so 2:06:34.840 --> 2:06:38.000 you have white corn and yellow corn, right, Yeah, they're 2:06:38.120 --> 2:06:44.480 more different. Yeah, you're married, Fred No, No wait, wait, 2:06:44.520 --> 2:06:50.120 a minute. Wait, that's it, you're out. Yeah, I get 2:06:50.200 --> 2:06:51.840 to talk to someone always might not want to know. 2:06:52.400 --> 2:06:54.280 I know that we've covered it, and we've had some 2:06:54.360 --> 2:06:57.800 people right in with the good answers, but I think 2:06:57.840 --> 2:07:00.720 we should hear Fred's take on it. But like, I 2:07:01.040 --> 2:07:04.520 think the question around, if we have all this power 2:07:05.040 --> 2:07:07.720 to just like mess around and make things like better 2:07:07.840 --> 2:07:11.000 to grow, how come no one's doing that just to 2:07:11.160 --> 2:07:16.920 make my strawberries always taste like fish. Did you ever 2:07:17.000 --> 2:07:20.640 get around with the child strawberry? Yeah, so that was 2:07:20.720 --> 2:07:24.280 another thing. Your strawberries taste like what? Just like the 2:07:24.320 --> 2:07:26.680 strawberries out of my garden or for whatever. I just 2:07:26.720 --> 2:07:28.840 feel like in general, out of all the regions I've 2:07:28.960 --> 2:07:32.400 lived right now, I lived in the worst region ever 2:07:33.200 --> 2:07:36.920 for like the quality of produce. I get, everything just 2:07:37.160 --> 2:07:40.480 taste like bland. Just give me some good berries. I 2:07:40.560 --> 2:07:43.240 can't tell if it's a You might I mean, if 2:07:43.280 --> 2:07:46.280 you if it wasn't for texture and and looks inside, 2:07:46.320 --> 2:07:49.360 you might confuse the asparagus with the Brussels sprouts, or 2:07:49.360 --> 2:07:51.600 the asparagus with the green bean. I mean, everything just 2:07:51.640 --> 2:07:54.240 seems to be just there. That's all this whole thing started, too, 2:07:54.360 --> 2:07:57.600 is that that Steve was talking about growing strawberries outside 2:07:57.640 --> 2:07:59.600 his house in Seattle and how they tasted so good, 2:07:59.800 --> 2:08:02.120 and you can go to the grocery store and things 2:08:02.200 --> 2:08:07.160 just kind of taste bland, and you go to the 2:08:07.200 --> 2:08:09.240 farmer stand there and all I do is I eat 2:08:09.280 --> 2:08:12.520 tomatoes and the water mills and all that great produced here. 2:08:12.760 --> 2:08:14.840 But I haven't had a good tomato in Montana since 2:08:14.840 --> 2:08:16.600 I moved here. But yeah, we had a we had 2:08:16.640 --> 2:08:20.760 a produce, we had a produced supplier. Well, I want 2:08:20.760 --> 2:08:23.240 to interject my own and say that I could win 2:08:23.280 --> 2:08:26.280 the county fair with the strawberries I'm growing right now, Okay, 2:08:26.840 --> 2:08:29.840 but produce supplier rolled in. And he was saying, because 2:08:29.840 --> 2:08:31.200 we were talking about that, and he was saying, the 2:08:31.360 --> 2:08:38.560 industry has optimized for shelf life and visual appeal. He's like, 2:08:38.720 --> 2:08:45.840 you put a big, gass, shiny, waxy apple that's bland 2:08:45.920 --> 2:08:52.120 and flavor next to a superb apple that's like blemished, smaller. 2:08:52.440 --> 2:08:55.360 It's colors aren't his vibrant. They're just gonna pick up 2:08:55.360 --> 2:08:57.080 the big shiny one. Yeah, I know we were putting 2:08:57.080 --> 2:09:02.040 a b And also, taste is subjective, but Fred, I 2:09:02.040 --> 2:09:04.120 don't know if if you can touch on that at all, 2:09:04.280 --> 2:09:07.440 Like you, are there any studies about how GMO affects 2:09:07.640 --> 2:09:10.920 the flavor of something or I I don't have not 2:09:11.280 --> 2:09:14.440 people have studied that and not seen an effect on 2:09:15.040 --> 2:09:18.160 the flavor of these things that are not flavorful to 2:09:18.240 --> 2:09:19.960 start with. So this was the whole thing. One of 2:09:20.040 --> 2:09:25.000 the first products was a flavor savor tomato and you 2:09:25.080 --> 2:09:29.560 can look at it, remember that term. Okay, so this 2:09:29.760 --> 2:09:32.960 is a great story. I mean, these these folks were academics, 2:09:33.320 --> 2:09:36.000 I think, I think you see Davis, and they made 2:09:36.040 --> 2:09:40.800 this tomato that would stay good on your shelf. So 2:09:40.960 --> 2:09:43.160 that means that you could pick them when they were 2:09:43.200 --> 2:09:45.520 closer to being ready, you know, so that you wouldn't 2:09:45.560 --> 2:09:48.800 pick them so green. So the idea was you would 2:09:48.840 --> 2:09:53.800 save the flavor that you had in that tomato. They 2:09:53.880 --> 2:09:57.600 were very careful to advertise that they were genetically engineered. 2:09:57.760 --> 2:09:59.800 They went through all of the testing. They were not. 2:10:00.120 --> 2:10:03.480 They were genetically so they went through all of the 2:10:03.560 --> 2:10:06.800 regulations to make sure everything was okay. But the marketing 2:10:06.880 --> 2:10:10.040 didn't work and the whole thing fell apart. And there 2:10:10.160 --> 2:10:12.640 is a great film that anybody could probably find on 2:10:12.760 --> 2:10:16.640 YouTube about the labor Saver tomato and what happened with that. 2:10:17.480 --> 2:10:20.040 But that was a great example of you know, the 2:10:20.160 --> 2:10:23.480 first things being tried was this little for your tomato. 2:10:24.000 --> 2:10:26.720 But now there definitely are people who are trying to 2:10:26.920 --> 2:10:30.040 use regular breeding things, you know, this genomic selection thing 2:10:30.080 --> 2:10:32.640 I mentioned, and other things to improve the taste that's 2:10:32.680 --> 2:10:35.400 been lost over time. So if you read academic journals, 2:10:35.680 --> 2:10:37.360 you'll see that there are a lot of small academic 2:10:37.440 --> 2:10:40.040 groups working on these things to try to make those things. 2:10:40.080 --> 2:10:41.920 But the question is how do you get that through 2:10:41.960 --> 2:10:44.720 the regulations? And you're not going to be as a 2:10:44.800 --> 2:10:47.400 small academic and a market that stuff. It's gonna wind 2:10:47.480 --> 2:10:49.720 up with a big company, and that big company has 2:10:49.760 --> 2:10:51.960 got to make sure that it ships right and it 2:10:52.040 --> 2:10:53.600 looks right and all of that kind of thing. So 2:10:54.040 --> 2:10:57.760 there are some hurdles. But with this whole crisper new 2:10:58.040 --> 2:11:01.760 approach to genetic engineering, you know, and gene editing, we 2:11:01.920 --> 2:11:03.800 may be able to come up with some of those things. 2:11:04.280 --> 2:11:06.200 But then I do want to ask, you know, where 2:11:06.280 --> 2:11:10.120 is the public going to be on the natural versus artificial? Okay, 2:11:10.640 --> 2:11:15.000 I think if this thing tasted wonderful, oh there you go. 2:11:16.680 --> 2:11:19.880 I think it would be a green versus purple state. No, 2:11:20.000 --> 2:11:21.120 I don't know. I don't know what it would be, 2:11:21.320 --> 2:11:23.320 but it would be you know, people would differ. Right 2:11:23.840 --> 2:11:26.680 and wait a minute, this is totally unnatural. This is 2:11:26.760 --> 2:11:29.800 not a strawberry, but it tastes great. I think people 2:11:29.800 --> 2:11:32.760 will take this tastes great, and I'm buying it, you know. 2:11:32.920 --> 2:11:36.320 So you know, I think that if you could produce 2:11:36.400 --> 2:11:39.120 something really good, and there are companies doing this now, 2:11:40.160 --> 2:11:43.440 some of them are venture capital companies have gotten investments 2:11:43.480 --> 2:11:46.960 from big companies. My senses, in the next ten years 2:11:47.080 --> 2:11:50.320 we will see um, some fruits and vegetables coming out 2:11:50.360 --> 2:11:53.120 that really do taste better. I sure hope. So just 2:11:53.480 --> 2:11:57.800 that might be your next investment, man, I'm into it. Okay, 2:11:57.880 --> 2:12:01.360 last question, last question for Crins. Say, all right, now, 2:12:01.440 --> 2:12:05.600 what's going on with the strawberries and the fish? Okay. So, 2:12:05.960 --> 2:12:08.640 so one of the big deals is that sometimes you 2:12:08.680 --> 2:12:11.520 get a frost in the early season or something like that, 2:12:11.840 --> 2:12:15.040 and you don't want your produce to just turn to mush, 2:12:15.560 --> 2:12:18.880 right because of ice crystals forming. So I think there's 2:12:18.960 --> 2:12:20.640 been some of this kind of talk that you know, 2:12:20.720 --> 2:12:23.920 some of these very arctic fish and stuff have anti 2:12:24.040 --> 2:12:27.160 freeze proteins, and the idea would be, can you move 2:12:27.240 --> 2:12:31.680 those genes for this anti freeze into something else right 2:12:31.840 --> 2:12:35.160 and make it? But the first that's not on the market, 2:12:35.440 --> 2:12:38.160 That is not I've never been on the market. There 2:12:38.240 --> 2:12:40.680 was a guy who early on, many many years ago 2:12:40.800 --> 2:12:46.280 came up with what's called ice minus bacteria that wouldn't 2:12:46.320 --> 2:12:48.080 nuclear you know, so when you know, one thing that 2:12:48.200 --> 2:12:51.480 happens is you know, in terms of that frost affecting 2:12:51.560 --> 2:12:53.960 your crop, is that it nucleates, you know, so the 2:12:54.080 --> 2:12:57.920 ice forms and then it proliferates. So if it's certain 2:12:58.000 --> 2:13:00.440 bacteria that allow that to happen more than others, so 2:13:00.760 --> 2:13:03.320 you could replace one with another. I mean they use 2:13:03.400 --> 2:13:06.040 it apparently now where they have strains of when they 2:13:06.720 --> 2:13:10.800 make ice, you know, snow, artificial snow, they put some 2:13:11.000 --> 2:13:15.280 bacteria and it makes it work better. Yeah, spraying spray 2:13:15.520 --> 2:13:18.880 stuff on the wing of an airplane or something. You know, 2:13:19.040 --> 2:13:23.520 I'm talking here this bitter sweet and timber ridge. I 2:13:23.600 --> 2:13:26.120 can't remember the Boying Mountain when they got to make snow. 2:13:26.200 --> 2:13:27.640 I don't know what I'm saying. If you had something 2:13:27.680 --> 2:13:31.280 that would inhibit ice grol inhibit yeah, yeah, you know, 2:13:31.400 --> 2:13:33.000 I'm talking a little out of turn. This is not 2:13:33.120 --> 2:13:36.120 my area. But just to say that that that that bacteria. 2:13:36.560 --> 2:13:39.800 You know, the story early on was, you know, because 2:13:39.880 --> 2:13:42.280 of regulations, the sky shows up in like space suit 2:13:42.680 --> 2:13:46.200 to put out these bacteria on the plants, and everybody 2:13:46.240 --> 2:13:50.880 thinks it must be really dangerous because space. So, yeah, 2:13:50.880 --> 2:13:53.080 you don't want to see a space suit on your 2:13:53.120 --> 2:13:58.600 farm field. Something's going wrong, right, yeah, all right, man, 2:13:58.640 --> 2:14:02.080 thank you very much for joined elves. Great, okay, thank you. Yeah, 2:14:02.160 --> 2:14:05.480 this is fun. I'm feeling better about everything. Good, I'm 2:14:05.520 --> 2:14:10.560 feeling more complicated about everything. We're definitely have to have 2:14:10.640 --> 2:14:14.280 Fred on again. This is fun. Come out to my 2:14:15.160 --> 2:14:19.080 taste time with the meat tasty finally get that laughing 2:14:19.080 --> 2:14:21.280 around meeting here and we'll we'll have fred on talking 2:14:21.280 --> 2:14:23.280 about that. Oh yeah, maybe you should gear up for 2:14:23.320 --> 2:14:27.000 a lab grown a whole bunch about start up. You 2:14:27.040 --> 2:14:29.480 can come back up part all right, stay too, Part 2:14:29.560 --> 2:14:32.840 two Fred and Lab grown Meat alright, coming soon