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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome back to another new episode of

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Speaker 1: Couch Talks. My name is Kat and if your new

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Speaker 1: Couch Talks is the special bonus episode of You Need

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Speaker 1: Therapy that comes out every Wednesday where I answer questions

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Speaker 1: that you guys can send straight to me and you

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Speaker 1: can send those to Catherine at You Need Therapy podcast

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Speaker 1: dot com. And Catherine is spelled k A t h

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Speaker 1: R y N. You might think that's the weird way

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Speaker 1: to spell it. I think it's the right way to

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Speaker 1: spell it. So you know what's funny is my name

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Speaker 1: is Katherine Mary. And of course my Catherine is spelled

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Speaker 1: not the traditional way, and a lot of people get

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Speaker 1: confused in is your name is supposed to be? Is

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Speaker 1: it is this a type boat's Mary Catherine? And I'm

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Speaker 1: like no. My mom and dad named me Katherine Mary

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Speaker 1: because they wanted to call me by Katherine, and then

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Speaker 1: I want to call me Katherine and my dad said, well,

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Speaker 1: if you call her Katherine, you have to name that

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Speaker 1: her first name. You can't name her something and call

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Speaker 1: her by her middle name, even though many people do that,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that was his rules. So they flip

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Speaker 1: flop the name, so it was Katherine Mary, And like,

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Speaker 1: do you know any other Katherine Mary? No, because it's

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Speaker 1: Mary Katherine. But it doesn't really matter because everybody calls

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Speaker 1: me Cat now anyway. So I don't know. I've felt

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Speaker 1: like that was important to share with you guys today,

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Speaker 1: but I did, and I shared it, and so now

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Speaker 1: we're going to move on. Um, We're gonna move on

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Speaker 1: with our quick reminder that this is not therapy, even

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Speaker 1: though I'm a therapist answering some questions. That's really what

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Speaker 1: this is. A therapist answering questions, but not therapy. And

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Speaker 1: obviously I'm a big supporter of of the thing. So

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Speaker 1: if you want therapy, I encourage you go out and

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Speaker 1: find that if that's something that you have the resources

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Speaker 1: to find, and also if you are somebody who's looking

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Speaker 1: for therapists and wants to go to therapy and has

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Speaker 1: those resources, I like to remind you, guys to refer

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Speaker 1: back to the You Need Therapy podcast Instagram account. Highlight

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Speaker 1: reel on the top of it, where the highlights are

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Speaker 1: there is one that says find a therapist or something

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Speaker 1: along list lines, and I did a couple of slides

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Speaker 1: that give some tips and finding therapists, because I get

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Speaker 1: that question a lot, and that's the easy way to

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Speaker 1: answer it. Okay, so now we do one question a week,

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Speaker 1: and they are anonymous questions. Well they're not anonymous questions.

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Speaker 1: Are the anonymous questions. There are questions that I keep

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Speaker 1: the sender anonymous from because you know, sometimes people put

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Speaker 1: really personal info in here, and I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: necessary for people to know who sent it in. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you really wanted me to say who you were,

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Speaker 1: I might consider it. But for the most part, it's

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Speaker 1: a mystery. So let's get to our question today. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for sending this one in. I thought it was

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Speaker 1: really good. Cat. I love your show, and as the

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Speaker 1: show continues, I can tell you are growing and I

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Speaker 1: love seeing you on this journey. Which side of this

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Speaker 1: is me? I like loved reading that because not only

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Speaker 1: am I growing as a human being through my life,

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Speaker 1: hosting a podcast is weird and hard, and I am

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Speaker 1: learning my own things along the way through our guests

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Speaker 1: and just through like this thing that people hear me

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Speaker 1: on that I didn't never think anybody would listen to.

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Speaker 1: So I appreciate that. And now back to your email.

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Speaker 1: I have a few questions about relationships and anxious attachment.

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Speaker 1: A marriage of eleven and a half years ended this summer,

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Speaker 1: and I think I'm ready to consider dating again. I

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Speaker 1: know that my X and I were stuck in the

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Speaker 1: anxious avoidance trap. I've been putting in a ton of work,

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Speaker 1: including reading, therapy, and educating myself on how to stop

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Speaker 1: repeating unhealthy relationship patterns. My ultimate goal is to be

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Speaker 1: an earned secure. That being said, I'm interested in dating

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Speaker 1: someone who is avoidant but also putting in the work

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Speaker 1: to improve himself. Should I stay away from dating and

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Speaker 1: avoidant because old habits are hard to break? Also, he

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Speaker 1: knows I have an anxious attachment style, but isn't aware

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Speaker 1: of the fact that I consciously hold back a bit,

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Speaker 1: so I don't repeat old patterns. Do I tell him

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Speaker 1: that I am consciously working to have a health the

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Speaker 1: relationship with him? Okay, So I love this question. I

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Speaker 1: love this email for so many reasons. Let's talk about it.

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Speaker 1: So let's first talk about what this earned secure thing

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Speaker 1: is that she's speaking of. If you are new to attachment,

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Speaker 1: we have a whole episode of multiple episodes, the first

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Speaker 1: episode ever and then one of the most popular episodes

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Speaker 1: is attachment to point. Oh, and that was in the

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Speaker 1: probably first ten episodes that we did. Gives a lot

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Speaker 1: of info on attachment. Now, what is this earned secure

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Speaker 1: thing that she's talking about. So with modern attachment, there

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Speaker 1: are a couple of main attachment styles, which of course

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Speaker 1: we talk about a lot on the podcast. You have

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Speaker 1: secure and then you have these two main insecure types

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Speaker 1: anxious and avoidant. Now, for those of you who have

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Speaker 1: identified or think that you've identified that you lean more

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Speaker 1: on the insecure side of attachment, you don't have to panic,

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Speaker 1: because there's a thing called earned secure earn secure attachment

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Speaker 1: is when you don't have an initial secure attachment style,

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Speaker 1: you kind of create that on your own. You create

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Speaker 1: and develop a more secure attachment style through allowing yourself

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Speaker 1: to find safe and healthy adult relationships. Now, this doesn't

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Speaker 1: have to be a romantic partner at all. In fact,

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Speaker 1: most of the time it's it's not. Um. We can

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Speaker 1: develop an earned secure attachment with friendships, with mentorships, and

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Speaker 1: especially a therapeutic relationship. Now, and earned secure attachment is

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Speaker 1: found by finding and creating and developing what it's called

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Speaker 1: a secure base. So a secure base is something that

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Speaker 1: usually is modeled by a primary caregiver, but it's basically

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Speaker 1: a human You can rely on someone you can find

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Speaker 1: a foundation with and relationally be messy and also know

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Speaker 1: that they will always be there. As a therapist. I

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Speaker 1: model that consistency for a lot of people, and I

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Speaker 1: model that through showing up every week when I say

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna show up. I model that through like allowing

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Speaker 1: somebody to tell me they're messy, weird, strange, crazy parts

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Speaker 1: of their story and and still committing to to stay

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Speaker 1: in that therapeutic relationship with them. I'm to all that

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Speaker 1: by like not leaving or not repeating those old patterns

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Speaker 1: and allowing it to be safe to show up. Now.

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Speaker 1: It takes time. These things don't just happen overnight. It's

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Speaker 1: not just like, oh, that's a therapist, she's my my

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Speaker 1: secure base now. No, you develop a relationship. And that's

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Speaker 1: why I take such a relational approach to therapy, because

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Speaker 1: it takes time to create intimacy, and a therapeutic relationship

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Speaker 1: is an intimate relationship, and we don't just jump into

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Speaker 1: feeling super comfortable with each other in the first five minutes.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it takes longer than others. But for somebody with

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Speaker 1: an insecure attachment. That is what we are doing, is

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Speaker 1: we're creating a space where you feel okay to come

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Speaker 1: and be with me. And you might think I'm judging you,

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Speaker 1: and you might think I'm gonna fire you, and you

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Speaker 1: might think X y Z. But you get to think

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Speaker 1: that and be nervous about that, and then talk about

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Speaker 1: that and see that the old story doesn't have to repeat.

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Speaker 1: It's a very cool thing to be a part of.

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Speaker 1: Very very cool. Now, this person is asking if she

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Speaker 1: should allow herself to date some one who has an

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Speaker 1: avoidant attachment but they're working on themselves, and if she

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Speaker 1: feels like she should disclose how she feels inside, really

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Speaker 1: really great questions. Now, Historically, an avoidant and anxiously attached

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Speaker 1: person are going to have a hard time developing a

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Speaker 1: healthy relationship. And also the level of healthy one in

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Speaker 1: a relationship is up to you. So I can't really

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Speaker 1: answer this completely, not just because that's how I roll

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Speaker 1: on these episodes, if you guys have got on, but

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Speaker 1: because like it's relative. It's like what level of health

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Speaker 1: and what do you want that might be different than

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Speaker 1: what I want or what I think is right if

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Speaker 1: and it really hard to point like tell someone you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't date that person, or you should date that person

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Speaker 1: or what whatever it is. Um that should always be

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Speaker 1: the person's choice. But I do think it would be

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Speaker 1: beneficial to talk more about why you do want to

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Speaker 1: date this person versus why you don't think you want

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Speaker 1: to date them, or why you think it might be

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Speaker 1: a bad idea. Like, I think it would be powerful

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Speaker 1: for you to have that dialogue with another human being

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Speaker 1: outside of the relationship, or with yourself or just through

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Speaker 1: a journaling prompt or something like that. Now, with any relationship,

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Speaker 1: there's a risk. There's always risk, and to be honest,

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Speaker 1: most people don't know their partner's attachment styles in the beginning,

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Speaker 1: so you kind of have like a I don't know

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Speaker 1: a head start. It's something that you figure out through

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Speaker 1: dating and getting to know someone. And also some people

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Speaker 1: with avoided attachments can actually look very secure in the

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Speaker 1: beginning because they can't show up as very present and

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Speaker 1: very engaged. And then when it becomes intimate and when

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Speaker 1: it becomes something that actually does involve somebody needing somebody

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Speaker 1: or somebody having expectations of somebody and getting close to somebody,

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Speaker 1: that's when the shift really happens when like the vulnerability

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Speaker 1: pops up. And that's why I think it's important to

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Speaker 1: say there's a huge difference in someone who's authentically working

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Speaker 1: on themselves, someone that just says they're working on themselves,

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Speaker 1: someone has no insight, and someone who doesn't really know

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Speaker 1: that they have any issues, and then somebody who knows

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Speaker 1: that they have some stuff to work on but is

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Speaker 1: just like choosing not to. And it's hard to really

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Speaker 1: know that about the other person. The only person that truly, truly, truly,

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Speaker 1: truly for a hundred percent knows which one of those

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Speaker 1: categories they lie in is the person themselves. And then

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Speaker 1: we also need to look at the fact that even

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Speaker 1: if someone has a secure attachment style, that doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: everything is going to go the way you want it to. Again,

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Speaker 1: there's always risk. There always is risk. Now do insecure

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Speaker 1: attachment styles make things more challenging, And there is an

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Speaker 1: added risk that dating someone with an avoidant attachment style

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Speaker 1: when you have an anxious one, will provide you with

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Speaker 1: more data to support your anxious attachment. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: like food for the wound, because our attachment wounds, like

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Speaker 1: are anxious or if we're insecure. Our insecure attachments come

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Speaker 1: out of these attachment wounds. Now what I mean by

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Speaker 1: like the food for the wound. What I mean by

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Speaker 1: that is, if you have an anxious leaning attachment style,

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Speaker 1: you are someone who has been given hope essentially, and

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Speaker 1: it's been stolen or taken away. So when you're in

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Speaker 1: a relationship, there's often a tendency to run towards the

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Speaker 1: relationship or partner and somewhat cling to them because you

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Speaker 1: know that they can leave at any moment. There's not

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Speaker 1: a settling point. We always are operating with this high

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Speaker 1: vibration because we have to be ready for them to leave,

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Speaker 1: so we can convince them to stay or just prepare

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Speaker 1: for them to leave, one or the other. There's a

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Speaker 1: tendency to lean in a lot because in quotes, people

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Speaker 1: always leave. Well, an avoidant is notorious for leaving, then

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Speaker 1: there notorious for leaving before they can be left as well,

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Speaker 1: before somebody can really see them, and then leave them.

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Speaker 1: Even though this doesn't look like an anxious tendency, it

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Speaker 1: looks most of the time like they don't really care.

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Speaker 1: It is done from an anxious which is different from

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Speaker 1: your anxious attachment of feeling anxious from a fear of

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Speaker 1: abandonment and rejection. And well, this is what I mean

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Speaker 1: by it feeds the story of the anxious leaning person.

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Speaker 1: I did everything I could and they still left. I'll

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Speaker 1: never be good enough, or maybe it's I always mess

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Speaker 1: things up and it feeds that wound because you have

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Speaker 1: data to support your theory essentially or your story. So

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Speaker 1: there's that. So I just want to say, like, there's

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Speaker 1: always risk and there's not a right and wrong answer,

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Speaker 1: and this could work out. It might not work out,

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Speaker 1: but I think that there's power and knowing what you're

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Speaker 1: getting yourself into, Like, oh, I know that there's risk,

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Speaker 1: and I know there's elevated risk, and I might still

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Speaker 1: choose to to stay in this just because I would

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Speaker 1: like to see. That might come with some heartbreak, it

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Speaker 1: might come with more data to support your wound, and

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Speaker 1: it might not. Like we don't really know a pent

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Speaker 1: for sure, especially if this person is genuinely working on themselves.

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Speaker 1: This might be a great thing for both of you.

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Speaker 1: We don't know, but what we can do is pay

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Speaker 1: attention to ourselves and how we feel every step of

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Speaker 1: the way. What I know about healthy relationships is there's

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Speaker 1: one no rush, so you don't have to figure this

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Speaker 1: out ercent right now, you can like lean in and

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Speaker 1: kind of put your toes in and you don't have

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Speaker 1: to jump into a full fledged relationship. You can get

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Speaker 1: to know this person and really see what happens when

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Speaker 1: vulnerability shows up inside of this relationship. Which kind of

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Speaker 1: brings me to the other part of your question. Do

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Speaker 1: I tell him I'm working on having a healthy relationship

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Speaker 1: with him or not? And this is where I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: answer this a little differently because normally I don't ever

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Speaker 1: just say yes or no, but like yes, communication and

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Speaker 1: relationships is always a yes. When we can talk about

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Speaker 1: our feelings and our experiences and our expectations, real intimacy

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Speaker 1: is born and that's what we want now. At the

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Speaker 1: same time, is this scary, Yes? This is also involved risk. Yes,

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Speaker 1: a lot of risk. We're talking about a lot of

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Speaker 1: risk today. This is the epitome of vulnerability, right. It

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Speaker 1: is uncertain what will come of the conversations that you

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Speaker 1: have with this person around your work and your development

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Speaker 1: and you and your relationship with this person, But it

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Speaker 1: also creates a space for a deep and intimate relationship

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Speaker 1: to be born. And it sounds like, that's what you're

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Speaker 1: looking for now. The thing is, I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: be a Debbie downer. I'm just trying to be realistic.

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Speaker 1: Here is someone with an avoidant attachment doesn't like feelings

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Speaker 1: like you. Feelings are a lot like real feelings are

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Speaker 1: suffocating and scary, and vulnerability can be a turn off

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Speaker 1: and looked at as a weakness because how they've survived

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Speaker 1: is not having to do that. They've survived by zipping

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Speaker 1: up their emotions, zipping up their feelings. If I don't

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Speaker 1: have feelings, then I don't have to present somebody with

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Speaker 1: a need. And if I don't have to present somebody

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Speaker 1: with a need, I can't get let down. I can't

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Speaker 1: be told I'm too much. I can't be told somebody

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Speaker 1: doesn't have time for me. I can't be told that

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Speaker 1: somebody doesn't love me, because one nobody's really seeing me

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Speaker 1: into I'm not asking for anything. So there is that part. However,

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Speaker 1: if your relationship ends because you wanted to have a

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Speaker 1: vulnerable conversation about how to create healthy communication and expectations,

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Speaker 1: then I think that's probably a good thing. This person

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be breaking up with you or ending this relationship

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Speaker 1: because they don't like you. It would be because they

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Speaker 1: don't want or they don't have the pacity to have

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Speaker 1: the kind of relationship that you long for. And that

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Speaker 1: is something that gets so confused. So it's so confused.

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Speaker 1: It's like, Oh, I showed up with the fullness of

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Speaker 1: me and I really leaned in and then they didn't

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Speaker 1: want me anymore. No, no, no, no, it's not that

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Speaker 1: they didn't want you. It's that they didn't want the

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Speaker 1: feelings that come with true connection and vulnerability. That felt

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Speaker 1: like too much. That has nothing to do with who

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Speaker 1: you are as a human. That has to do with

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Speaker 1: their capacity for emotions. So I really want you guys

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Speaker 1: to hear that part. So it's kind of a win

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Speaker 1: win here for you. You build intimacy or you break

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Speaker 1: up because the person is incapable of or unwilling to

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Speaker 1: build intimacy. Boom, Okay, Well you don't want that relationship

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Speaker 1: if it has to be like unless like dumbed down emotionally.

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Speaker 1: So it's better for you to know. And what we

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Speaker 1: also know is that and we just did a podcast

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Speaker 1: on this last week healing heartbreak. Heartbreak is one of

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Speaker 1: the hardest, most challenging things ever to get through. It sucks.

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Speaker 1: It sucks so bad, and it will not kill you.

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Speaker 1: And risking it is what gets us the thing that

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Speaker 1: we want and long for sometimes the most in our lives.

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Speaker 1: So the risk and also the reward is great. So

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Speaker 1: I hope that helps answer your question. I hope that

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Speaker 1: gives you some food for thought to think about what

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Speaker 1: you want to do and how you want to move forward. Again,

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Speaker 1: there's no right or wrong answer for most of this.

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Speaker 1: It's more along the lines of right or wrong answer

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Speaker 1: for you and what you're looking for and what you

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Speaker 1: have capacity for right now and where you are relationally

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Speaker 1: and emotionally. So thanks for bringing that question. I always

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Speaker 1: love to talk about attachment, so you know, I get

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Speaker 1: super excited about these emails. Anyway, that kind of does

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Speaker 1: it for us today. I hope you have the Wednesday

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Speaker 1: or whatever day it is that you need to have,

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Speaker 1: and I will be back talking to you guys on

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Speaker 1: Monday morning.