1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey are you welcome to Stuff to 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick, and today we're bringing you an interview that 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: Robert conducted with a professor of psychology named Barbara Bletchley. Uh. Rob, 6 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: I was not here for this conversation. You recorded it 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: while I was out on vacation a while back. So 8 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: to tell me about the talk. What is this? Well, 9 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: Barbara came on the show to discuss her new book, 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: What Are the Chances Why We Believe in Luck. This 11 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: is UM publication from Columbia University Press, and it's currently 12 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: available in hardback, get as an e book, an audio book, 13 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: So anyway you consume your your books, it's an option UM. 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: Barbara is a professor of psychology at Agnes Scott College, Indicator, Georgia, 15 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: UM and her scholarly and UH teaching interests include of 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: physiological psychology, neuroscience research, statistics, psychology of learning, sensation and perception. 17 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: Also the biology of depression and UH and factors both 18 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: environmental and biological, influencing the development of the brain. UM 19 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: and of course, the book in question here, which is 20 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: a delightful read. I've very much enjoyed. It's just all 21 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: about about luck, getting into um various topics related to 22 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: luck that you might not even instantly realize are are 23 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: central to our understanding of it, such as randomness and 24 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: the difficulty in like, even contemplating randomness from a human perspective. 25 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: Barbara also gets into the neuroscience of luck as well 26 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: as how it relates to various uh mythologies and and 27 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: so forth. Sounds great, Let's jump right on in. Hi, Barbara, 28 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: can you introduce yourself to our listeners. Hi, my name 29 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: is Barbara Blushley. I'm a professor of psychology and neuroscience 30 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: at Agnes Scott College, and I've been there for about, oh, 31 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: this is going to be embarrassing forty years now. Your 32 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: book provides such an engrossing look at luck and randomness 33 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: and these various concepts that are all kind of interwoven 34 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: into the topic. Uh So, in a way, it's kind 35 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: of difficult to decide where to start first. I wouldn't 36 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: want to just ask you, well, what is luck, because 37 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: that is that's that entire answer is the entire length 38 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: of the book. But I thought it might start by 39 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: just asking how does luck seem to be connected to 40 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: the human unwillingness to accept randomness. Actually, that's a very 41 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: good question. I think luck is the word that we 42 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: assign to random and unpredictable events in the world. We 43 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: tend not to like things that are random and unpredictable. 44 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: They're very often interpreted as fearful or threatening. Randomness is 45 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: scary because it's unknowable, it's unpredictable. Um, it's unexpected. UH. 46 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: I was very fascinated to read a book by Nicholas Carlton, 47 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: who's a psychologist in Canada. UH. He writes that fear 48 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: of the unknown, the fear of not having the information 49 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: we need in order to be able to answer a question, 50 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: maybe the most fundamental, the most basic fear that we 51 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: have and underlies every other fear that we learn. We 52 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: are motivated, seriously motivated to reduce that uncertainty, and we 53 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: do that in a number of different ways. We can 54 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: we can do it by being curious, by going out 55 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: and trying to find the answer to the question. We 56 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: also do it this is very human. We do it 57 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: by labeling that thing that we're afraid of. UM. The 58 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: tendency to label things that we don't understand, I think 59 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: is another fundamental human characteristic. It stems from our desired 60 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: control of that. Then if you can label it, then 61 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: you have some degree of control over it. Um. One 62 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: of the more interesting studies that I came across in 63 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: writing the book was a study done by uh Lieberman 64 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 1: and the whole slew of other people in two thousand 65 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: and seven. They were looking at their participants understanding emotions, 66 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: and they were doing this in an fMRI machine, So 67 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: they're scanning the brain to watch how it uh the 68 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: processes the information that's coming in. They showed their participants 69 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: a series of human faces expressing emotion. About of the 70 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: emotions were negative because that gets a really big response, 71 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: and the other were positive emotions. Or they show them 72 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: just a shape, and they asked them to first just 73 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: observe the image, don't do anything about it, don't label it, 74 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: don't say anything. And then they asked them to to 75 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,559 Speaker 1: label that image. When they were just observed the human 76 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: faces with emotional expressions, it activated a part of the 77 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: brain called the amygdala, which is part of the emotion 78 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: processing system in the brain. When they labeled the emotion 79 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: the activity the amygdala went down. So it's almost as 80 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: if being able to apply a label to that thing 81 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: reduced the anxiety literally in the part of the brain 82 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: that is processing that emotional response, which I thought was 83 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: just super interesting. I did not expect that. So, loosely speaking, 84 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: like something unexpected happens. Uh, there's the the you know, 85 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: the the unexplained, the unexpected in life. Just by merely 86 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: being able to label it bad luck, you're kind of 87 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: reducing the the emotional um impact of the incident. Yes, 88 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: I think that's how they would have interpreted it. They 89 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: said that putting your feelings into words helped regulate the 90 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: negative emotions that that particular thing unexpected or a negative 91 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: emotional response from someone else. Humans are tremendously important to 92 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: other humans. We can spend a lot of our time 93 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: watching human faces to see what they're doing. So being 94 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: able to label that negative emotion reduced the anxiety that 95 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: that negative emotion provoked. Fascinating. Now, speaking of of applying 96 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: language to these things. In the book, you outline four 97 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: different types of luck. Um, can you describe these four us? 98 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: Those four types of luck I came across in a 99 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: book by Dr James Austin, who is a neurologist and 100 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: an author. In fact, he wrote one of my favorite 101 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: books of all time. Um, it's called Zen and the Brain. 102 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: Had nothing to do with luck, but just to mention 103 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: it because it's a really cool book. So he writes 104 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 1: about these four types of luck in his book, which 105 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: is uh Chase, Chance and Creativity, The Lucky Art of Novelty. 106 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: He's really writing about how luck played a role in 107 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: his own X paraments that he was doing in the lab, 108 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: and he details these four different kinds of luck. Each 109 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: type of luck builds on the type that came before. 110 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: So at the at the foundation of this is what 111 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: he called type one luck, which is what most of 112 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: us probably think about when we think about luck. It's 113 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: random chance. It's just an unexpected, random event that happens 114 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: to you. We don't see it coming, but there it is, 115 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: and we we wind up having to deal with it. 116 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: And the example I used in the book for type 117 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: one luck is walking into the casino in Las Vegas 118 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: and betting everything you have on the outcome of one 119 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: game and walking out a winner. That's type one luck. 120 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: That's just random, unexpected against the odds. Look type two 121 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: luck is a combination of randomness and what Austin called movement. 122 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: Um I think of it as persistence. Really, he uses 123 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: the example of a Charles Kettering, who's an American inventor, 124 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: who very famously said, but if you want to solve problems, 125 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: you have to be persistent. You have to keep moving, 126 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: you have to keep trying. Chances are you will stumble 127 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: on something when you least expected. I've never heard of 128 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: anyone stumbling on something sitting down. So Kettering was advocating 129 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: to be luckier, get up and move, get up and try. 130 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: And Type three luck is a combination then of randomness, persistence, 131 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: and preparation, and Austin uses the famous quote by Louis Pasteur. 132 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: Chance favors the prepared mind, so preparation helps you see 133 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: patterns in the events that happened to you that other 134 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: people who are less prepared might not see. And then 135 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: Type four luck combines randomness, persistence, preparation, and our own 136 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: unique personality, our own spin on what happens in the world. 137 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: And I used the story of Sarah Kesson's and Emily 138 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: Cole and their attempt to win the two thousand and 139 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: five wood Vale Transatlantic Rowing Race which just blows my mind. 140 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: I just cannot wrap my head around voluntarily getting in 141 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: a rowboat and trying to row across the Atlantic Ocean. 142 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: Just not not in my wheelhouse. So I got the 143 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: chance to talk with Sarah via email. UM. I think 144 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: she lives in New Zealand now. Um. She told me 145 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: that she accidentally came across a book, so there's random 146 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: chance while she was waiting for an airplane to fly 147 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: home across the Atlantic, by the way, uh, and read 148 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: about the race and that was what got her interested 149 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: in it. She and her racing partner, Emily Cole, had 150 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: been on the Purdue University women's skulling team, so they 151 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: already were familiar with and prepared for racing long distances, 152 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: although nothing like what they were about to attempt. Both 153 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: thought that this race sounded like a challenge instead of 154 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: something you would avoid at all costs. Uh. And it 155 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: was right up there alley, and both of them prepared 156 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 1: like mad, persisting despite the fact that Indiana lacks an 157 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: ocean upon which they could practice, so they were practicing 158 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: on rivers and ponds and and things like that, so 159 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: they they embodied kind of all four aspects of luck. 160 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: They suffered, uh, capsize in the race, as did many 161 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: people because apparently this was just an ill fated race, 162 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: but they survived and tried it again. They entered again. 163 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: If you couldn't believe it after that, I don't think 164 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: I would go anywhere near a rowboat, but they did. 165 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: I love the various examples like this that you share 166 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: in the book, so you know, to illustrate these different 167 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: views and understandings of luck. UM. One that was particularly 168 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, alarming, I guess you could say if 169 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: if one's not familiar with the story was that of 170 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: Joan Ginther. Can you tell us about Joan Ginther and 171 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: what her story reveals about luck? I can't. One of 172 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: the things I had the most fun with actually in 173 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: writing the book was finding these stories of lucky people. 174 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: And John ginther story was one of the most fun 175 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: for me because I teach statistics, so UH kind of 176 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: felt a kindred bond with Dr Ginther. She is a 177 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: retired professor of mathematics who won the lottery four times, 178 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: winning a total of I think twenty million dollars altogether. UM. 179 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: Her experience is a wonderful example of a streak in 180 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: a random event, winning the lottery is random. It's really, really, 181 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: really hard to predict whether you're going to or not, 182 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: whether or not the card that you've got to scratch 183 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: off lottery card that you've got is going to be 184 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: a winner or not. Um So, her experience winning the 185 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: lottery four times against all the odds and repeatedly was 186 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: really remarkable. She kind of embodies all four types of luck. 187 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: She was definitely prepared to understand the chances of winning 188 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: the lottery. She's a math professor, so she probably knew. 189 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: She was persistent in that she kept trying even though 190 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: she knew what the odds were. She also benefited from 191 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 1: the fact that random events are not necessarily pattern less. 192 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: They do happen in streaks with apparent patterns. If you 193 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: think about the stars in the night sky, you can 194 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: see patterns in the placement of those stars. In fact, 195 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: those patterns are so consistent that we give them names. 196 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: We've we've labeled the patterns that we see in the 197 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: night sky. So when something happens like this, when somebody 198 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: wins the lottery, for example, four times in a row, 199 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: we tend to think, well, that's not that's not fair, 200 00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 1: it's not how the universe works, it creates uncertainty, and 201 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: that uncertainty is unpleasant. So we start looking for a 202 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: pattern predictability in that event. If we can find a pattern, 203 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: we can then understand that event better. And sometimes that 204 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: pattern we just say that's luck. That's an example of luck. 205 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: Some people insisted, however, that it couldn't be luck because 206 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: it was so unexpected, and that she must have cheated 207 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: in order to win. So there there's a whole bunch 208 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: of reporters who got attracted to this story and went 209 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: to try to see could they find out how she 210 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: cheated the system. For the life of me, I can't 211 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: figure out how she would have cheated unless she had 212 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: a level of control over the creation and distribution of 213 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: scratch off lottery cards. That is impossible, and that, as 214 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: far as I can tell, she did not have. UM 215 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: I just can't see how she cheated. I think she 216 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: just was the beneficiary of a streak in luck. And 217 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: more power to you, Joan. So I'm not going to run. 218 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: I'm not moved to run out and played the lottery 219 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: myself because because I know what the odds are as well. 220 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: But there you go, thank you. Now. One question I 221 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: came to mind as I was I was reading the book. 222 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: You know, is it is luck just something? Is it 223 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: just seemed like a universal concept for all human cultures? 224 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: Is it just something that that emerges alongside language? Is it? 225 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: Did you run anything across anything that even resembled a 226 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: culture without a tradition of luck? I did not. Um, 227 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: And this was another thing that I found fascinating. I 228 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: suppose it's common to all human cultures in that all 229 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: human cultures are created by humans, so we all share 230 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: a tendency in our cognition, in the way that we 231 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: leave the world. UM. I saw an interview with Richard Wiseman, 232 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: who wrote a book about luck as well. He said 233 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: that as far as he could tell that there, it 234 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: is common to all humans all over the world. Two 235 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: want to have control over the unexpected, and that often 236 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: becomes a tradition of luck and luckiness or lucky gods 237 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: or lucky shoes, are lucky whatever in the world. So, 238 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: if you ask a cognitive science researcher, these are folks 239 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: who study how humans think and what they think about this, 240 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: Is this a universal characteristic of the way humans think? 241 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: They probably would tell you yes, in that all humans 242 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: have the tendency to see patterns in random events, and 243 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: it's related to another tendency in the way that we think, 244 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: which is to look for an agents for whatever caused 245 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: an event to happen. Sometimes you can easily identify the agent. 246 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: If you do something and I see you do it, 247 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: you are the agent. It's really easy for me to tell. 248 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: Sometimes you can't identify the agent, and that makes us nervous. 249 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: So searching for and needing an agent for any event 250 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: that happens is a pattern. It's a survival mechanism for 251 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: us humans. It goes hand in hand with our tendency 252 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: to interpret all patterns as having meaning and discounting randomness 253 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: because we can't see what caused it, so we tend 254 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: to just say, well, that didn't happen. There there must 255 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: be something causing this. If that event that happened is 256 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: beyond the capacity of humans to create, we start looking 257 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: for invisible superhuman agents. We refer to these agents very 258 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: often as gods and goddesses. They are divine, They have 259 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: control over things we don't have control over. They must 260 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: be the agent of whatever happened, and maybe if you 261 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: ask them, really, really nicely, they'll help you experience good 262 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: luck as well. I was a bit surprised at how 263 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: consistently we humans have insisted on and institutionalized the idea 264 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: of luck um as a force in the universe, as 265 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: something that makes things happen. I'm going to go out 266 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: on a on a limb here, uh, something that might 267 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: get me into trouble. I am not a cultural anthropologist. 268 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: I'm interested in this, but I'm not an expert by 269 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: any means. But what struck me was that most cultures 270 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: have an explanation of luck and how it influences us. 271 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: And most of these explanations involves the divine in some way, 272 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: shape or form. That seems to be the common underlying factor. 273 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: Humans like there to be an agent in charge, and 274 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: very often that agent is a god. Now there's a 275 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: whole section of the book where you you look to 276 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: two different cultures and you go back in history and 277 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: look at different ideas. I was. I was a little 278 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: surprised when prehistoric cave paintings came up. Can you describe 279 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 1: how prehistoric cave paintings may relate to luck? After say, 280 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: going to see the cave paintings at Lasco or elsewhere, 281 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: not just photographs of them. He's on my personal bucket list. 282 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: I would love to do that. I'm told that the 283 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: photographs of them just don't do them justice. There's an 284 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: entire group of researchers who study the paintings that humans 285 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: have left on the walls of the caves they lived in. Um. 286 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: They're trying to understand the apparently fundamental human need to 287 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: paint on the walls. If you're a parent and you 288 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: have children that paint on the walls, it may just 289 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: be wired into us. I don't know. There are a 290 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: number of explanations as to why we do this. I 291 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: personally liked the Neanderthal adolescent idea that maybe they're tagging 292 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: the caves. Some researchers think that they were simply recording 293 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: the hallucinations that they had, because there are some common 294 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: patterns in the haucinations visual hallucinations that human beings have. 295 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: They're called in toptic images. They are created by the 296 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: machinery of the eye itself. So that's why they're so common, 297 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: and that's why all humans, if you're gonna experience them, 298 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: probably experienced the same ones. Have you ever seen a 299 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: floaty um your visual field, something that appears like it's 300 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: floating across. That's probably debris in the eyeball itself. UM. 301 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: So that's an example of one of these UH and 302 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 1: topic images. The other explanation had to do with our 303 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: ancestors pleading to the universe for good luck. UH. It 304 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: might be related. I've often wondered too our modern urge 305 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: to display the head of something we've killed on the 306 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: living room all. So maybe they were painting the results 307 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: of the last hunt UH and hoping that that would 308 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: be rewarded by a successful hunt the next time. They 309 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: have found that a number of these paintings seemed to 310 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: be done over and over and over again in the 311 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: same spot. So there was some aspect of that spot 312 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: in the cave that was lucky. They had really good 313 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: luck with the hunt after they painted on that spot, 314 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 1: so they went back the next time and painted again. 315 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: It could just be bragging about what you killed the 316 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: last time, but it could also be a ritual attempt 317 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: to ask the random universe for success the next time. 318 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: You go out with your spear and try to bring 319 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: that out a really mammoth seems difficult. Okay, that's fascinating. UM. 320 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: Now in the h in this section where you you 321 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: deal with different cultural traditions, and I must say you 322 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: get into examples from say, you know, Greek and Roman culture, 323 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: and and very various other examples. So I highly recommend 324 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: folks pick up the book and uh and read it. 325 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: But I wanted to ask about one in particular. You 326 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: outline three models of luck and Chinese traditions. There's I 327 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: believe ming yun, which is one's own personal destiny on 328 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: thin faithful coincidence, and bow ying, a cosmic accounting of 329 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: one's life. And you discuss how the easier you know, 330 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: not not stand alone but interwoven. And this just got 331 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: me thinking, do do you think this is relatable to 332 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: sort of modern Western views um on luck? That you 333 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: know that we may have several different or perhaps even 334 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: contradictory views of how luck might work in our lives. Interesting? Uh, 335 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: I do think that we are often contradictory and what 336 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: we think in what we think about a lot of things, 337 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: not just luck. I think we're a contrary species. Just basically, 338 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: since the book came out, I can have been asked 339 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: do I believe in luck more times than I can count? 340 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 1: Which is completely expected. I wrote a book about luck, 341 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess that means people are reading it. Uh. 342 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that the answer is as binary as 343 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: the question is. If you ask me do I believe 344 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: in luck? I would say yes and no, which is 345 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: a really wishy washy answer. I realized most of the time, 346 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: I don't believe in luck. I believe in hard work, persistence, 347 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: in preparation. But if I hit the lottery tomorrow, I'm 348 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: going to say something along the lines of Wow, that 349 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: was really lucky. I think lots of people feel that way. 350 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: They share that view when when I can see what 351 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: I did to create an outcome, when I can see 352 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: how I've influenced that outcome. When I have control, and 353 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: I know I have control, I don't need luck. I 354 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: don't need it as an explanation for what happened. But 355 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: when I don't have control, then I need luck, And 356 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: then I believe. I'm actually somewhat embarrassed to admit that 357 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: I own a pair of lucky shoes. They became lucky 358 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: when they got paired randomly with success. I wore them 359 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: to a job interview and I got the I got 360 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: the job. Um, I do not think it was the 361 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: shoes that got me the job. That would be creepy 362 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: and weird. I think it was my preper ration, my 363 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: what I brought to the opportunity, that sort of thing. 364 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: But those shoes are still lucky for me, and I 365 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: still haven't. Yeah, it's it's interesting to think of, Like 366 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: I was, you bring up you know, various you know, 367 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: lucky items and charms and amulets and all, and so 368 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: it got to me got made looking around my own 369 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: house and recognize them some things that are I guess, 370 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: you know, technically lucky charms of some you know, or 371 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: lucky mementos. They're supposed to be items of luck. Uh. 372 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: And then I'll tend to think of them not as 373 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,239 Speaker 1: as some sort of an amulet or anything. I'll think 374 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: of like a reminder of something good. But then again, 375 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: it's just kind of linguistically dancing around, like the idea 376 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: of it being a lucky item. Like, you know, we're 377 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: just kind of arguing about terminology at this point. I 378 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: think it comes down to semantics after a while. Lots 379 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 1: and lots of people carry carry lucky charms. Um, I 380 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: don't see anything particularly wrong with it. I like my 381 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: lucky shoes. They're very nice shoes. So I'm not going 382 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: to worry about it too much. Is it contradictory? Probably, 383 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: but I'm okay with them. Now. Another question that came 384 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: to mind. Do you see a link between divination practices 385 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: and the need to create randomness? I think I've seen 386 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: this discuss before, in terms of ancient bone casting rituals, 387 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: or the or the eaching means of stepping outside of 388 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: humanity's inherent inability to grasp or produce randomness. I actually 389 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: had not heard that. I was I was intrigued when 390 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: you said that. I think human beings are bad at 391 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: creating randomness. If you ask people to create a random display, 392 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: most of the time we can't do it. Um. This 393 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: is actually a question that philosophers and mathematicians argue about um, 394 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: and I'm perfectly willing to let them have added. I 395 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: don't have a good answer for that, but I think 396 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 1: we're bad generating or creating randomness because we seem to 397 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: be wired to see patterns and to interpret them as meaningful. 398 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: So if you ask me to abandon that and to 399 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: create a random eventum or series of events, it's usually 400 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: not random. There's usually a pattern in it. And that's 401 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: because of the way that the brain is designed to 402 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: interpret events in the world. So I think what you're 403 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: saying is that you've come across evidence that, in an 404 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: attempt to introduce randomness, people have used casting bones or 405 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 1: or the each ng or something like that to create 406 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: random because we're so bad at it. Is that what 407 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: you were that is? I think that's basically the ideas 408 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: I've I've read it. I want to say, maybe it 409 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: was Julian Jaynes who wrote about it at some point. 410 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: I'll have to go look that up. Now. Outside of 411 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: any kind of alaly attempted to understand randomness, I enjoy 412 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: a board games and role playing games such as Dungeons 413 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: and Dragons, which, to varying degrees, uses tables and dice 414 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: to generate randomness that is useful in sort of generating 415 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: an adventure or you know, some sort of a situation 416 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: for players to engage in UM. And some systems even 417 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: have like a luck mechanic. They'll be like a luck 418 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,479 Speaker 1: like some sort of numerical rating for luck that uh 419 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 1: somehow factored into everything. UM. I don't imagine any of 420 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: this reveals anything about our perceptions of luck, though, does it? 421 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I think I think we're we're fascinated 422 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: by random events. Um, they can be scary, but they're interesting. 423 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: They will grab your attention. Um, how else can you 424 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 1: explain horror movies and how popular they are. I'm not 425 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: really familiar with games that I don't play Dungeons and Dragons, 426 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 1: so I don't really know the example you're using. But 427 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: I think that since games that we play reflect the 428 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: lives that we live, and many people think of luck 429 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: as an element in the universe that cannon does affect us, 430 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: that having some lux ri of an aspect of the 431 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: game would be completely human. I just didn't realize it 432 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: was built into the game. I did not know that. 433 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: Thank thank In your book, you write that quote luckiness 434 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 1: could be described as a creature of our imagination. If 435 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: we could imagine something worse happening, and if that's something 436 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: worse is close at hand, it might have happened recently. 437 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: We had a choice of actions that lead to the 438 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: possible something worse, or we deserve that outcome, we say 439 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: we were lucky. It all seems to hinge on being 440 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: able to imagine something worse. I found that that that 441 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: really interesting as well, and and this makes complete sense, 442 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: but it also makes me wonder think people who were 443 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: inclined to engage in catastrophic thinking uh and worst case scenarios, 444 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: are they more inclined to assume luck not Probability played 445 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: a role in say, um, you know, not being bitten 446 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: by a shark on a recent vacation. I like that 447 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: example makes me think. I had a I had a 448 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: student in my statistics class last week, as a matter 449 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: of fact, who asked me if something that I said 450 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 1: in class was true to what they're listening. That's that's good. 451 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: I had been talking about the Monte Carlo fallacy in 452 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,479 Speaker 1: statistics class and explaining why it's a fallacy. The Monte 453 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: Carlo fallacy is another example of how we usually misinterpret probability. 454 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: It's the belief that an event will be, for example, 455 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: less likely to happen if it follows a series of 456 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: similar events, or that a past event can change the 457 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: probability of a future one. It's named after a famous 458 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: streak in the events that happened at the casino at 459 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: Monte Carlo Um. The player on the roulette wheel betting 460 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: black one time after time after time, the little marble 461 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: kept landing on black, and as it did that the 462 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: other players at the table started to bet more and 463 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: more heavily that the next spin would be read as 464 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: if the probability of the marble landing on black was 465 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: decreasing as the streak went on, and the probability that 466 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: it would land on red was increasing. We're talking about 467 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: independent events here. Each spin of the wheel is independent 468 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: of every other spin of the wheel, unless the wheel 469 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: is rigged, in which case you shouldn't be playing there. Um, 470 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: So what happened on the last spin has no effect 471 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: at all on what happens on the next spin. It's 472 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: fifty that it will land on black every single spin, 473 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: unless the universe is keeping score. Uh. And besides, there's 474 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: been too many landing on black events, so the next 475 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: one has to be red. Um, and I don't think 476 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: it is. Then what happened the last time has no 477 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: effect on what happens the next time. My student looks 478 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: shocked by this, so I asked her why, and she 479 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: said that she had always believed, like the players at 480 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: the table had believed that, to use your example of 481 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: being bitten by a shark, um, that the probability of 482 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: being bitten by a shark if she goes into the 483 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,479 Speaker 1: ocean would go up as the number of days that 484 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: no one had been bitten by a shark also increased. 485 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: Don't work that way, um, And we had an interesting 486 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: discussion about how it does not work that way. UM. 487 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: She came to class the next time kind of reconciled 488 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: to this. So, yeah, my work here is done. So UM, 489 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: I think part of the reason we do this, and 490 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: I do it myself, I have done it myself, is 491 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: that we're wired to think that the worst thing can happen, 492 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: and there's a survival component to that. If you prepare 493 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: yourself for the worst thing that can possibly happen, then 494 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: then you're ready for that should it happen, and if 495 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: it doesn't happen, you're still okay because you were prepared. 496 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: So the problem is that overestimating the probability of a 497 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: negative event produces anxiety, and anxiety can really change how 498 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: you process what happens next. So I think I may 499 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: have wandered down the garden path here, but I do 500 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: think that, uh, we do tend to think catastrophically, uh, 501 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: in order to prepare for catastrophe. UH, and that that 502 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: is related to how lucky or unlucky we feel ourselves 503 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: to be. Believe ourselves to be so. Speaking of of anxiety, 504 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: how does stress and superstition, superstition about luck and bad luck, 505 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: how do these seem to be linked together. Well, stress 506 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:03,959 Speaker 1: and anxiety can reinforce catastrophic thinking. Anxiety tends to narrow 507 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: what psychologists call the spotlight of attention. If you're anxious, 508 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,959 Speaker 1: that spotlight is really, really narrow. You're focused on just 509 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: that one little thing, and you're missing you're actually not 510 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: seeing or hearing the other things that are happening. If 511 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: you're relaxed and happy, that spotlight is wide and you're 512 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,479 Speaker 1: taking in more information. So if you get stressed out 513 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: in anxious and you're focused on that catastrophic thing and 514 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 1: only that catastrophic thing, it can make it more and 515 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: more difficult to cope, and it can make you more 516 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: likely to see the negative and less likely to see 517 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: the positive. Superstitions develop as a means of deflecting, usually 518 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: something negative or fearful, uh to keep that from happening. 519 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: There was just very interesting study done on the superstition 520 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: of knocking on wood um, which developed by out of 521 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,959 Speaker 1: the Celtic culture. The belief that trees in the forest 522 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: were inhabited by spirits that could mess with you if 523 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: they felt like it, um especially if you came upon 524 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: them unexpectedly. Produced this this myth or the superstition of 525 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: knocking on wood. So you walked by the tree and 526 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: knock on it to let them know that you're here, 527 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: so that they they'll leave you alone. They won't be 528 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: surprised by your sudden appearance. It keeps bad luck away 529 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: from us. So in this study, they asked people to 530 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: describe their level of stress. How stressed are you? And 531 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: then they gave them a difficult task to do, and 532 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: they asked them as they were doing it, how strong 533 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,959 Speaker 1: is the urge to knock on wood? For example? And uh. 534 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: What they found was that the more stressed they were, 535 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: the more they reported the urge to knock on wood. 536 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: Not not very many of them did it, because they're 537 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: in a psychology experiment and the psychologist is watching them. 538 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: They don't want to look superstitious. But they did report 539 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: that they felt the urged more strongly when they were 540 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: stressed out. So carrying lucky charms produces a similar effect. 541 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: Having a lucky ritual or a lucky pen, or even 542 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: lucky shoes can make us feel more confident in the 543 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: face of the unknown and the unpredictable. Having that with 544 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,959 Speaker 1: you reduces anxiety, and when you're less anxious, you perform better. 545 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: So you know, success breeds success. So I have to 546 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: admit that previously I did not know what the origin 547 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: of knocking on wood was as a sort of good 548 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 1: luck practice. It's something that I I would catch myself 549 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: doing often if i'm, you know, engaging in a conversation 550 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: with somebody like I don't think I would ever catch 551 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: myself doing it like by myself, but uh, you know, 552 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: someone would say something they knock on wood. I pick 553 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,959 Speaker 1: up on it, and I guess the barrier to entry 554 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: is very low in it. You just have to have 555 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: something wooden around to knock on my desk. Now, traditions 556 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,399 Speaker 1: of luck like like this and others that they can 557 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: be fun and they're they're often a part of one's culture. 558 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: But what do you think it's the best way to 559 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: explain these traditions to to younger people, to children. I 560 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: often wonder about this with my own son, where I 561 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: might explain a tradition or even introduce him to one, 562 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: But then I feel like I have to really couch 563 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: it all in sort of the fiction or the superstition 564 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,240 Speaker 1: of the thing, so that he doesn't take it too seriously. Um, 565 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 1: but then I am I taking too much of the 566 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: magic out of it. I don't know what do you 567 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: think is the right approach? Oh, well, I will tell 568 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: you right off the bat. But I don't have children, 569 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: so I've never been faced with this. Probably not the 570 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: person to ask. I do think that you probably. I 571 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 1: don't think you would destroy the magic if you explained 572 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 1: it to a child. I think children are remarkably will 573 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 1: to believe in magic. I mean, who but a child 574 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: would think that tying a red towel around their shoulders 575 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: would give them the power of flight. That's that's magic. Um. 576 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: So I don't think that you're going to, by being realistic, 577 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: explain explain away the magic. I think the magic is 578 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: there regardless. There's plenty of adult people who see magic 579 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: as perfectly possible as well. I don't really have any 580 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: good advice for how to how to explain this to 581 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: your child because I don't have any. I have three 582 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: step children, but they were pretty much beyond that stage 583 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,879 Speaker 1: by the time I came around. So yeah, I guess 584 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: I'll just have to have to keep wrestling with it. Here. 585 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,280 Speaker 1: Basically you mentioned the red cape is actually a similar 586 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,280 Speaker 1: situation where my son knows that red is often considered 587 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: a you know, a good luck color, and so they'll 588 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: be we'll be playing a game or something and he'll say, 589 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: oh wait, let me go get a red shirt on 590 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: for this part, you know, to get really geared up. Yeah, 591 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: and so I, you know, when he does that, I 592 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: don't want to say no, don't do that, you know, 593 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: don't engage in superstition. But I also want to explain 594 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: to him what, you know, this is not actually going 595 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: to have an impact on what happens. But yeah, but 596 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: then it keep explaining, Yeah, just keep explaining. Okay. Now 597 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: another question, this is something you get into in the book. Um. 598 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 1: Are people who believe in luck generally happier? Well, that's 599 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: an easy one, yes. Um. Psychology used to think of 600 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: luck as being a sign that you were focused in 601 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: the wrong direction, that there was a sign of not 602 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: processing things appropriately, But lots of studies more recently have 603 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: shown that people who believe themselves to be lucky people 604 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: are more hopeful, they're happier, they perform better. It even 605 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: affects something called executive function, which is the function of 606 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: the frontal lobe, how you pay attention to the world, 607 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,280 Speaker 1: how you UM. There are several aspects to executive function. 608 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,240 Speaker 1: One is paying attention UH, and all of those aspects 609 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: can be affected by belief in luck, because I think 610 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: because you're happier, you're just a happier person, and that 611 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: change is how you work, how you function. UM. There's 612 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: a study that showed in two thousand and nineteen that 613 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: less happy people people who were unhappy had a stronger 614 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: belief in external luck, that it was out there, not 615 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,240 Speaker 1: them that was lucky, but that it was a force 616 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: out there in the universe that dictated your fate, whether 617 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: it was good or bad. They're blaming luck for what 618 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: happens to them, and that tends to make you feel 619 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: as though you don't have personal agency, that what you 620 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 1: do isn't going to have an effect. UM diminishes their 621 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: sense of purpose and their overall happiness. So seeing luck 622 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,720 Speaker 1: as external to you might be associated with being more unhappy, 623 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: but seeing luck as personal, as something that's an aspect 624 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 1: of you, tends to be associated with people being happier. UH. 625 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: It's a I suppose a variant of optimism and optimism 626 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: always makes us feel better. It breeds, it breeds hope, 627 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: it breeds self acceptance, uh, connection with other people and 628 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:38,720 Speaker 1: with positive experiences. So people who see themselves as lucky 629 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,760 Speaker 1: may be more willing to try something new, to be 630 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: inspired to go out and try to be a helper 631 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: out in the world. Two help other people because they 632 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 1: feel that life has been kind to them, and so 633 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: they can then extend that to the rest of us. So, yeah, 634 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: people who see themselves as lucky are generally speaking happier. 635 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: So in that case, can we learn to be lucky? 636 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: Can we make that change in our in our lives? Yeah. 637 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: The same psychologist in the UK that I was talking about, 638 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: Richard Wiseman, has been studying luck and uh other factors 639 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: that are related to it for the last twenty years. 640 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: He used to run I don't know if he's still 641 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: running it or not, but he used to run a 642 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: luck school where he would teach you how to be lucky. 643 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's still operating, and he had 644 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 1: details in his book. He has a book out called 645 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,399 Speaker 1: The lux actor Um and he details in that book 646 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: several ways several things you can do to try to 647 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: improve your your feeling of personal luckiness. Try to be 648 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: more open to new experiences, be more social, make more 649 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: connections with other human beings. Pay attention to your intuition, 650 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: your gut feeling about something. UM, expect good fortune as 651 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:04,839 Speaker 1: opposed to acting disaster. Uh, and develop your resiliency, your 652 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: ability to come back even from a disaster, come back 653 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: from that. Still looking for the positive in life. I 654 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: think the most practical bit of advice that he had 655 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: was to begin a gratitude diary to track the positive 656 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 1: in your life. So every day you would write down 657 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: a positive thing that happened to you. It makes you 658 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: focus on the positive more. It tends to make us happier. Uh. 659 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: That widens our attentional spotlight, That makes us more likely 660 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: to notice random things that come up, et cetera. So, 661 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 1: as I said, success breed success. So if you can 662 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,920 Speaker 1: do that, that might be the first step in learning 663 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: how to be a luckier person. Excellent. Well, there's some 664 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: some some words of wisdom there. Remind everybody that the 665 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: book again is what are the chances why we believe 666 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: in luck? And yeah we we We didn't even get 667 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: into I think half of the material you discussed in 668 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: there there's there's stuff in there about about curses, the 669 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: curse of the Mummy. Um, it's certainly a lot of 670 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: neuroscientific information that's worth reading as well, so I encourage 671 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,760 Speaker 1: everyone to go out there and pick it up. Thanks 672 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,760 Speaker 1: for taking time out of your day to chat with me, Barbara. 673 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 1: Thank you. This was fun all right. Well, thanks once 674 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 1: more to Barbara for taking time out of her day 675 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 1: to chat with me about the book. The book, again 676 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,399 Speaker 1: is what are the Chances Why We Believe in Luck? 677 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: Currently available and I think pretty much any format you 678 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 1: might be desiring, and that is out from Columbia University Press. 679 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out 680 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you'll find 681 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:48,479 Speaker 1: us in the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed. 682 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,120 Speaker 1: We have core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, Artifact on Wednesday, 683 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: listener Mail on Monday, and on Friday's we do a 684 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,320 Speaker 1: little uh, a little bit of content called Weird House Cinema. 685 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 1: That's our time to set aside most of the serious 686 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: concerns and just discuss a weird film. Huge thanks as 687 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,839 Speaker 1: always to our wonderful audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If 688 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,400 Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with 689 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest topic 690 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hi, you can 691 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,400 Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 692 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of 693 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 694 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,080 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 695 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows.