1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:13,239 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. They would come right over 2 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: to his lunch table and mess with him and telling 3 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: that he was worthless and that he should kill himself 4 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: and everything else, and nobody saw it. I don't get it. 5 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: We asked students, and we asked the teachers and stuff. 6 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: Well did you ever hear Aaron yelling back at these 7 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: kids or trying to defend himself? And everybody told us no. 8 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: Aaron would just sit there quietly, and he would get upset, 9 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: and then he would storm out of the lunch room. 10 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: Every night. When I go to go upstairs, his room 11 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: as right across from ours. I walk upstairs and I 12 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: look in there. I still can't believe it, and I 13 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: say good night to me and I tell him that 14 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: I love him. I don't get it either. I do 15 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: not get it. Why this little boy in Ohio, sixth 16 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: grader was bullied and bullied and bullied, people making fun 17 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: of his clothes, people making fun of him, about every 18 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: single thing I've read so much about Aaron Fuller. How 19 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: finally at the end he would just go and sit 20 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: all by himself in the lunch room and not even 21 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:46,199 Speaker 1: fight back against his bullies. And now Aaron is gone 22 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: and left trying to put the pieces back together. His 23 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: mom and dad, Tammy and Steve Fuller, who are joining 24 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: me right now. If you have a child, if you 25 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: have a grandchild, if you have a child that you 26 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: love more than anything in the world like I do, 27 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: please listen, I Meancy Grace, this is crime stories. Thank 28 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: you for being with us. They told him to do it. 29 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: Quote they told him to do it and Ohio sixth grader. 30 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 1: Sixth grader commits suicide after bullies mocked him, torture him, 31 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: belittle him, be rate him, encouraging him to take his 32 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: own life straight out. First to Dad, Steve Fuller, Steven Tammy, 33 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. Did you 34 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: have any idea Steve, what was going on at school? Um? 35 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: Not at first, and then like he said it back 36 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: in in September one, he tried to drink him. So 37 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: today he said he was just trained to forget everything 38 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: that was going on, and UM, we started to find 39 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: out what was going on. So we contacted the school 40 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: and told them. They said they were going to um 41 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: try and get it to stop because they have a 42 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: no bully policy, and it just it just didn't stop. Well, 43 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know what that means to Tammy Fuller, 44 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: this is Aaron's step mom. What is a no bully policy? 45 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: Because I'm pretty sure my children they were eleven, that 46 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: their school has a no bully policy, But every day 47 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: I hear about bullying at school, even though there's a 48 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: no bully policy. What is a no bully policy, Nancy? 49 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: It's not seen. It's just a way for the schools 50 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: to try to protect themselves. And I mean, when it's not, 51 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: what do you think it is? What do they claim 52 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: it is? They said that they do whatever they can 53 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: when they know what's happening, but they don't. Well, they 54 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: had to know this was happening. You brought it to 55 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: their attention, but it didn't stop it. They told us 56 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: the last time we were up there that it was 57 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: no bullying really involved. The first few times this happened, 58 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: like back in September, they said that that wasn't the 59 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: kid being a bully, it was just being being a punk. Well, 60 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: I don't know what the difference between that is, Steve. 61 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: What what the difference is when you have a bully 62 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: at school and you warned the bully and the bully 63 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: does it one more time the bully needs to go. 64 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: Can I just tell you something that happened For about 65 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: I would say two years, my son John David, and 66 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: he is a gentle giant. He's already taller than me, 67 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: and his sister, however, is much smaller. For two years, 68 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: Steve and Tammy, he would come home and either he 69 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: would tell me or a sister would tell me there 70 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: was a guy who had been held back, maybe one 71 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: or two years, I don't know, but he was huge, 72 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: even bigger than John David. And John David would get 73 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: tripped or accidentally pushed down, and John David would always say, well, 74 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: you know what, it might have been an accident. My 75 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: please don't say anything. He'll just make it so much worse. 76 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: And they started saying that both of them snitches get stitches, 77 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: all right. So he convinced me that he thought there 78 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: was a chance it was an accident. But it was 79 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: always the same kid, all right. Finally, the third year 80 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: on the playground, he punched John David in the stomach 81 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: and then spit on him. Can I tell you how 82 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: crazy I went by? I held it in. I held 83 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: it in until three o'clock and then I waited outside 84 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: the principles, and I talked and talked and talked and talked. 85 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: And the next day, believe it or not, as I'm 86 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: sitting there in mind in my own business, actually on 87 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: the conference call, another mom came up to my window 88 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: and was knocking on my window. I got off the call, 89 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: let it down, and I'm like hey, And she said 90 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: the same thing had happened to her son, and that 91 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: there were a lot of other parents, And when I 92 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: come to a meeting, I'm like, yea'll come to a meeting. 93 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: I got in the meeting Steve and Tammy, and there 94 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: were twenty two other parents. They were parents of eleven children, 95 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: and there were apparently a lot of other parents that 96 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: could not fit in the conference room that were not there. 97 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: All of them had been punched, kicked, their pants pulled 98 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: down and then punched in the stomach, all sorts of 99 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: stuff with this one kid, and none of the other 100 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,119 Speaker 1: parents knew about the other one looked at I could 101 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: not believe it, Steve. So it's hard for me to 102 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: believe that the school didn't know Aaron was being bullied. 103 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: And we know that they did, and they know that 104 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: they did too. It's just you're talking about schools that 105 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: you're going to try to go after to try to 106 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: get some kind of answer, and they're only allowed to 107 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: say so much or else they get in trouble. My 108 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: oldest son, a friend of his head some bracelets made 109 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: up with in memory of Aaron on it, and he's 110 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: not even allowed to pass him out at the school. 111 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: I'm happy to say that finally, after all these parents 112 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: came forward, and one of them even threatening to sue, 113 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: they did get rid of the kid all right, and 114 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,239 Speaker 1: from what I understand, he's already been suspended or thrown 115 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: out at the next school. What I don't understand is why, 116 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: when you know you have a bully, why keeps going 117 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:16,239 Speaker 1: on and on and on. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace 118 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: joining me. Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer who's very 119 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: well versed in this area of law. Doctor Bethany Marshall, 120 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: renowned psychoanalics from LA. You can find her at doctor 121 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall dot com. Nancy Willard, author Attorney, Be Positively 122 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: Powerful and Empowerment Plan for teens who are bullied or harassed. 123 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: What a book. You can find it on Amazon. John 124 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: Limley Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter. But the reality 125 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: of bullying can end like this, Tammy. Do you remember 126 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 1: when you learned that your other son had found Aaron 127 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: and he had taken his own life. Yeah, I never 128 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: ran upstairs so fast. Ever, that night, I think you 129 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: guys had gone out for pizza to bring it home. 130 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: You weren't gone for long. What happened when you got home? 131 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: We called for Aaron. He didn't answer. I thought he 132 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: was asleep, so we sent Joe upstairs to get him, 133 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: and that's when he started yelling, and Steve and I 134 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: got up the stairs and immediately just started CPR on 135 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: him and called nine one one. We did CPR for 136 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: half an hour before the EMS got here and started 137 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: and took over. But he was gone before we even started. 138 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: Just thinking, looking at a picture of Aaron right now, 139 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: he just is the most precious boy, just absolutely precious. 140 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking how things could have been so different 141 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: and why it had to be this way with me? 142 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: Is Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer. We are talking 143 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: about the completely avoidable death of a handsome, handsome little boy, 144 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: an Ohio sixth grader who commits suicide after bullies at school. 145 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: Mock him, his clothes, everything about him. At first he 146 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: would fight back, and then he just sat there and 147 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: just took it. Kathleen Murphy, you have seen this over 148 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: and over in your work. Why what would takes so 149 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: long for the school to act, Nancy, I don't only 150 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: see it in my job, but I have that experience 151 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: among my son and his friends, and they just had 152 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: the conversation. You cannot say anything to your teachers because 153 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: it only makes it worse. You can't say anything to 154 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: the guidance counselor because they'll only make it worse. You 155 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: can't say any think to your parents because it only 156 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: makes it worse. So, not only are these children in 157 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: a situation where they're being bullied, they don't know how 158 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: to turn to the school or how to turn to 159 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: their parents to resolve the problem because it is such 160 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: a prespervasive issue in the schools, And personally, I think 161 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: schools are too big, and I think it's too much 162 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: on some of the teachers and staff to have this 163 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: on their plate. It is a lot to deal with. 164 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: It involves mental health, and it involves social status, and 165 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: it involves just so many components. Well, I have a question. 166 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: We need a shrink before I go to the expert. 167 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: Nancy Willard be positively powerful. The author of that on 168 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: Amazon doctor Bethany Marshall, I need a shrink number one. 169 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: What is going on in the head of the bully 170 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: and what about all the children the teams that stand 171 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: on the side and do nothing well in terms of 172 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: the mind of the bully, the bully becomes used to 173 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: a power imbalance. You know when your kids were little 174 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: and you saw them play, One child would wrestle and 175 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: be on top of the other, and then they would 176 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: flip positions with the person who was on top being underneath, 177 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: so there would be top bottom, top bottom. We see 178 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: this in every aspect of the animal kingdom. Cats do it, 179 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: dogs do it, squirrels do it. Children do it. Where 180 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: they share power in play, okay, that is an important 181 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: precursor to good mental health and good development and growing 182 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: into adults. Where adults can share power positions with each other, 183 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: one person can be one up and one down. For instance, 184 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: little kids will say I'm the king of the castle, 185 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: you're the dirty rascal, or I'm the cop and you're 186 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: the robber, and they'll play that way for a while, 187 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: but then they will switch positions where the cop turns 188 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: into the robber and the robber turns into the cop. 189 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: Bullies get stuck in the power position. They are always 190 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: the king of the castle. They are always the cop. 191 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: They always take that one up position. And I think 192 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: sometimes it's because of what's going on in their family. 193 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: It could be a powerful group psychology in the school. 194 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: It could be that they're just really disturbed little kids, Nancy. 195 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: Not all kids were disturbed. Are disturbed because they come 196 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: from bad family. Sometimes they are born that way. And 197 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: the best thing that the child can do who is 198 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: being bullied is talk to some other person who is there, 199 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: like a teacher, their parent. Stay in a safe space, 200 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: don't be isolated, good posture, stand up straight, look the 201 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: other person in the eye. There are things we can 202 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: do to help our kids to stop being bullied. But 203 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: bullies are bullies. They're bullies forever. They will stay that 204 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: way throughout the lifespan. Well, I want to go to 205 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: Tammy and stay fuller. Who are joining us? This is 206 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: Aaron's stepmom and dad. I know Aaron would tell you 207 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: at some point point, I would tell you he was 208 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: getting bullied at school. Did you feel helpless? Did you 209 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: feel like there was something you could do about it. 210 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: What did you do with What was your advice to him? Well, 211 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: I told him to talk to his teachers and stuff, 212 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: and that I would go up and talk to him 213 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: and try to figure something out. But we try to 214 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: get Aaron to understand that, you know, you have to 215 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: talk to somebody about it, because if he don't, it 216 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: just bottles up and they cause us more problems than necessary. 217 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: And so we would tell him to talk to his 218 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: teachers and stuff, try to get moved from one spot 219 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: to another so he'd stay away from him, which we 220 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: were told by the teachers that they would make sure 221 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: he was sitting in a different area in the lunch 222 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: room and stuff, and they would keep an eye on 223 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: him because they didn't tolerate the bullying and stuff. And 224 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: it just didn't work. I feel sometimes, Timmy Fuller, this 225 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: is Aaron's step mom, almost helpless because your child can 226 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: beg you not to intervene because they think it would 227 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: make it worse. And then you stand by when I say, Philly, 228 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: help us. You want to do something, but you don't 229 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: know what to do. Timmy, what did you tell him 230 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: that he could come to us? He could talk to 231 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: us about anything and tell us what was going on, 232 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: and we would try to do what we could do. Guys, 233 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: we were talking to the parents of Aaron Fuller. They 234 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: found Aaron dead in the home. They had only been 235 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: out a short while to bring home at pizza. Joining 236 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: me right now, attorney and author Nancy Willard. Nancy's book 237 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: Be Positively Powerful and Empowerment Plan for Teams who are 238 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: bullied or harassed. Nancy, I think we need help. I 239 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: don't know if I mishandled John David and Lucy has 240 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: girl bullies. Her girl bullies started in pre K for 241 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: Pete's sake, and I managed to help Lucy. But with 242 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: John David it was too late. We were already in 243 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: it that year. I couldn't get him in another class. 244 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: I couldn't rearrange everything. It just leaves you feeling so helpless, Nancy. Indeed, 245 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: what educators were being told about bullying behavior was in 246 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: part accurate. Um. Now, Bethany got it nailed right. She's 247 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: talking about this. This suck in a mode of seeking dominance, 248 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: and this is dominance behavior related to that that relates 249 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: to animal behavior. Sometimes the students who engage in bullying 250 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: are the ones who are have also been bullied, have 251 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: experienced trauma, and they're trying to fight their way kind 252 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: of back up. But a lot of the young people 253 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: who engage in bullying are the popular leadership students whose 254 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: stamp think are just great. And what they are doing, 255 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: especially as they approach puberty, is they are engaging in 256 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: its favor to achieve seek to achieve higher social status 257 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: and dominance. And the other thing that I saw is 258 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: that the approach that educators have been directed and this 259 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: is they've been directed by state statute in every state 260 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: to respond to this is to make rules a policy. 261 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: This is against the policy. We have a no bullying zone, 262 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: which is absolutely ridiculous. And so they create the policy 263 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: and he tell stums to report and then and reporting 264 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: has profound risks. Nick snitches get stitches, um, So most 265 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: young people don't report crime stories. With Nancy Grace joining 266 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: me right now, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter John Limley, John, 267 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: we've got it beast backwards this morning. And that's my fault. 268 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: I didn't start with the facts. Tell me what happened, Nancy. 269 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: The story begins just one Friday night, after a week 270 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: of work, for Stephen Tammy school for the boys. Aaron 271 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: and Joseph at home home while their parents went out 272 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: to get some dinners some pizza for a Friday night 273 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: to sort of celebrate. There's another another week gone. We 274 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: can say goodbye to that one. When Steve and Tammy 275 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 1: returned home just about forty five minutes later, they walk 276 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: in the door and call out to the boys that 277 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: you know, suppers here, come on down. And Joseph comes down, 278 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: but no Aaron. And so they send Tammy and Steve 279 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: send Joseph upstairs to go get and go get his brother. 280 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: And that's when they hear him yell out, and then 281 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: Steve and Tammy go rushing up and that that's when 282 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: they see this, this horrible sight that their their son 283 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: has hung himself with a belt. You know, when I'm 284 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: hearing you tell the story, John Linley, is so overwhelming. Guys, 285 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: for those of you that need help, please call National 286 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: Suicide Prevention Lifeline eight hundred two seven three eight two 287 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: five five or text TA l K talk to seven 288 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: four one seven four one. Listen. Family friends and their 289 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: lawyer calling for change within the district. Brian Claypool is 290 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: the obolo's lawyer. He says the school district knew she 291 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: was being bullied for months and didn't do anything to 292 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: protect her. He says Rosalie left a final note before 293 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: taking her own life. In the note, she asked her 294 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: parents not to show her picture at her own funeral. 295 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,360 Speaker 1: The fact that this little girl would be so verbally 296 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: abused at a school to a point where she writes 297 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: a suicide note to her parents saying she doesn't even 298 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: feel like she's worthy of a picture at her funeral, 299 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: speaks volumes. The Yucaipa Calamasa School District says their teachers 300 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: and students are also mourning the loss of Rosalie. They 301 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: release a statement that says, in part, we strive every 302 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: day to be a safe support of an engaging learning environment. 303 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: We will continue to raise awareness and work with students 304 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: in the community to support our children. Joining me Tammy 305 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: Fuller and Steve Fuller. They are the parents of sixth 306 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: grader Aaron Fuller, who killed himself after being bullied and 307 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: cyber bullied by people at school. Now you were just 308 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: hearing our friend at CBS News talking about another little 309 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: girl about the same age as Aaron, Rosalia a Villa, 310 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: who hung herself after bullying. I mean it's growing. There 311 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: are more and more and more students this very age 312 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: and even younger that are taking their own lives because 313 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: they don't know what else to do. I want to 314 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: go to Steve Fuller, this is Aaron's dad. When you 315 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: look back on it, do you think, oh, I should, 316 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: I could, I would have. I mean, what else could 317 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: you possibly have done. We talked all the time about 318 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: stuff to me and Joseph and Tammy and just everybody 319 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: would try to talk to him and tell him, you know, 320 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:21,239 Speaker 1: don't worry about what they say because he was in 321 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: the band and stuff. He was he was really talented 322 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: playing the bass guitar, and we just tried to reassure 323 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,959 Speaker 1: him that he was doing a good job with that. 324 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: And we just we tried to do everything we could 325 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: to show him that his life wasn't as bad as 326 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: they were trying to make it sound. I mean, when 327 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: you went to the school, Tammy, what did the school 328 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: tell you? I mean, did you alert I'm sure you 329 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: did alerted the school he was being bullied. I was 330 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: at that school every time, in front of the principles, 331 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: and they promised to me that they would take care 332 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: of it. But the final Estrallas when Jim went the 333 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: superintendent said to me, it's just kids being boles, it's 334 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: not bullying. And I said to him, I send my 335 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: children to the school thinking they're safe, and they're not. 336 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina Family Warrior, that just sends a 337 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: chill down my spine. It's just kids being a holes. 338 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: That's what a bully is. Well, this is the same 339 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: talk that parents would hear in the nineteen fifties. It's 340 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: just kids being kids, and then in the seventies and 341 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: then in the eighties. We got to do a better job. 342 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: We have to find that solution. And the solution involves 343 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: us all. It involves our children being raised to be stronger. 344 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: It involves the parents being in tune with those children 345 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: like your guests are today. They were in tune with 346 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: their son. It involves the teachers knowing their kids. It 347 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: involves a smaller community of teachers and children in the classroom, 348 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: and it involves a public service that you're doing right 349 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: now today. I know, Kathleen, I'm sorry. I usually always 350 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: agree with you, but I'm just hearing words words, words, 351 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: blah blah blah because they did all that. They did 352 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: all that, and it didn't work, and nothing happened, and 353 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: now he's gone. I mean, it just escalated. Oh I 354 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: took my child out of school for a while because 355 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: I don't he wasn't necessarily subjected to intense bullying, but 356 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,479 Speaker 1: he felt very awkward at the school and he felt 357 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: a bit overwhelmed, and I brought him home for a while. Well, 358 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what we did. We decided to take 359 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: the children out of that particular school, which had and 360 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: has an excellent reputation, because it just seemed to me 361 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: like nothing was getting better. And then I found out 362 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: it wasn't just my son, who I've always taught because 363 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: he's so big, you're you can't rough house too much, 364 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 1: you can't hurt anybody, and we've instilled that into him. 365 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 1: And then I felt, did I do the wrong thing? 366 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: Should he punched this kid back? What? What should we do? 367 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 1: Finally I decided to just yank him out. And then 368 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: at the very last minute, literally as we were signing 369 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: into another school and had toured it, and the whole shebang, 370 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: they kicked the problem out. And now there has been 371 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: no discussion of boy bullying. Now the girl bullying as 372 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: a whole other can of worms. Dr Bethany Marshall. It's 373 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: like the plastics the mean Girls times a hundred, and this, 374 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: you know, all started in pre k. I managed after 375 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: prey when Lucy would cry the whole way home because 376 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: she's a really quiet, very shy little girl. She would 377 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: cry the whole way home every day after SCO. I 378 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: can't take this anymore, it's just killing me. So from 379 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: then on I just simply had Lucy and John David 380 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: in a different class than the bullies, and the bullies 381 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: stayed in their class together. She had no more problems. 382 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: I felt so bad for the other girls in the 383 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: other class. I had the bully, Doctor Bethany Crime Stories 384 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace girl bullying as a whole other can 385 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: of worms, Doctor Bethany Marshall. It's like the plastics the 386 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 1: mean girls times a hundred, and this, you know, all 387 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: started in pre k Man after pre k, when Lucy 388 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: would cry the whole way home. She's a really quiet, 389 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: very shy little girl. She would cry the whole way 390 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: home every day after SCO. I can't take this anymore, 391 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: it's just killing me. So from then on, I just 392 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: simply had Lucy and John David in a different class 393 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: than the bullies, and the bullies stayed in their class together. 394 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 1: She had no more problems. I felt so bad for 395 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: the other girls in the other class that had the 396 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: bully doctor Bethany. Really, but it's not like the administration 397 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: doesn't know. They know. So what is what is the 398 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: thinking of these the administration that really just does nothing? 399 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: Why are they so afraid to throw out the bullies? Okay, Nancy? 400 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: First of all, the thinking is the same as people 401 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: who witness spousal abuse, child abuse. Somebody's being perpetrated on 402 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: in their neighborhood, and they don't call adult protective services, 403 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: they don't call child abuse hotlines. They always imagine, they 404 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: think they're a imagining it and they do not want 405 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: to get somebody in trouble. But I can tell you 406 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: if you see a child bullying another child, you are 407 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: not imagining it. And remember I talked about Bethany. I 408 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: gotta tell you a story that happened to me. Okay. 409 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: I was at a book signing and it was my 410 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: first nonfiction so it's a long time ago. Objection, and 411 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: a woman came up to me and I thought I 412 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: recognized her, but I wasn't sure. And she said, I 413 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: don't know if you remember me, but when we were 414 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: in there, I think she said eighth grade or tenth grade, 415 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,959 Speaker 1: she said, I was getting bullied and you came in 416 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: between me and the bullies and yelled at them and 417 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: told them to leave me alone. Was she said that 418 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: it triggered a memory. And this was a girl who 419 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: was just the cutest thing ever. And she lived with 420 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: her grandma. I never knew where her parents were. I mean, 421 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: when you're a kid, you don't think about, wow, what happened? 422 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: Where are your parents? But the grandma would make her outfits. Okay, 423 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: so she would always wear a matching ensemble. Okay, now 424 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: for an adult that may be great, But when you're 425 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: wearing a plaid pear of pants, a plaid jacket, a 426 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: plaid shirt, and a plaid hat to school, and then 427 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: the next day you wear a velvet green jacket, a 428 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: velvet green peara pants, you know, and a velvet green 429 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: hat to school, I mean, I mean for kids, that's 430 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: not the way they dressed. That's the way your grandma dresses. 431 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: And they were beautiful clothes, but everybody would make fun 432 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: of her every day. And I remember this when she 433 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: came up and said that I sub I hadn't thought 434 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: of it since then. There were like three other girls, 435 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: or maybe four, and they had a kind of like 436 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: back in the corner. We didn't have lockers, we had 437 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: cubby holes, and she was against the cubbies, and they 438 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: were all like her, wranguing her about her clothes. And 439 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: I hardly even remembered it. And all it took was 440 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: leave her alone. You're you're just Maane. Go bother, go 441 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: go go away, go bother somebody else and they all 442 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: just disperse like roaches. And it was just one sentence. 443 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: Believe me, I was not a hero. It was just 444 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: that and they all went away. And sometimes I think 445 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: that's all it takes, just somebody. I'm surprised I didn't 446 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: punch me in the nose looking back on it. But 447 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,959 Speaker 1: sometimes it just takes one sentence or somebody just call 448 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: him out one time. Well, Nancy, there are positive uses 449 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: of power and negative uses of power. The bully abuses power. 450 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: What you did for your friend who, bless her heart, 451 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: she was a moving target and her all ploid outfit 452 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: is that you engaged in a positive use of power. 453 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: And that for any parent who's listening, that is a 454 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: very important thing to teach your child to do. Teach 455 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: them to do things as simple as to stand up straight, 456 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: not lean over. Teach them to look the bully in 457 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: the eyes. Maybe they focused on the color of the 458 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: other person's eyes. It will give them the bully the 459 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: perception that that person is on the same level. Teach 460 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: them not to turn their back to the bully. Teach 461 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: them to stay in public places, like sitting right behind 462 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: the school bus driver or staying near the teacher's desk 463 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: so they can't be bullied, Nancy. The most startling thing 464 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: I ever saw in terms of helping bullies to stop 465 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: bullying was a tape by Virginia Seteer, who was one 466 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: of the founders of family therapy. And in it what 467 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: she did there was a girl who was being aggressed 468 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: against by her brother, and she got the family on 469 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: a stage and she made the brother get on his knees, 470 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: hands and knees or knees and beg the sister for forgiveness. 471 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: And she made him do it again and again and 472 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: again that he had to learn to ask for forgiveness. 473 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: And now I know now that what she was doing. 474 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: Was she was putting the little sister in the one 475 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: up power position, sitting higher in a chair. The brother, Well, 476 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: I appreciate that, and I'm glad it worn't for them. 477 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: But with Tammy and Steve, they kept going to the 478 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: school and trying to change that dynamic you're telling me about, 479 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: and according to them, the school district told them there 480 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: was nothing that could be done because Aaron had quote 481 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: participated in an online exchange. And I guess what they 482 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: mean by that. Steve is he responded to the cyber 483 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: bullies online when they were antagonizing him and Jackie here 484 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: in the studios. Steve just brought something up that bullies 485 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: have been around forever, but it seems like cyber bullying. 486 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: But you didn't used to hear about kids suicides, But 487 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: with cyber bullying now, the kid's suicide rate has soared. 488 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: Tell me about Aaron's cyber bullying online. Well, he come 489 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: downstairs one day obsessed, and I asked him what was 490 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: going on, and he told me that the kids that 491 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: were born him were on Snapchat or whatever it is, 492 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: they were online, and I had him bring his phone 493 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: down and it was showing me all the stuff that 494 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: they were saying. But what he didn't tell me is 495 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: he was erasing the stuff that he was saying back 496 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: to him. So we had got hold of the school, 497 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: and then the school got hold of the other boys 498 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: and talked to them and they said, well, he was 499 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: saying stuff back to us. So they asked to see 500 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: their phones, and then they told us that the stuff 501 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: that Aaron was saying back to him, and Aaron's friends 502 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: were also chaming in behind what's what Aaron was saying? 503 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: And if they didn't, they were going to have to 504 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: deal with all of Aaron's friends. You know, I'm hearing you, Steve, 505 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: and I'm hearing you. I just want to say one 506 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: thing I've discovered, Steve, and I discovered it when I 507 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: was writing a book and I'm working on it right 508 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 1: now called Don't Be a Victim. And there's a whole 509 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: section there about school school safety, and a large degree 510 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: is about bullying. I learned with the cyber bullying, it 511 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: gets so intense, and it's so easy to just fire 512 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: off a text or a snapchat or an email and 513 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: you don't even think twice. Ta's fifteen seconds. But then 514 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: it's there forever I find out about this thing called 515 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: bark baark, and I'm plugged into the children's phones for 516 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: all of your parents listening. Whenever there's anything there's profanity, 517 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 1: there's violence, there's bullying, there's sex, there's all these things. 518 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: Whenever anything remotely like the words slap or hit. It 519 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: may be completely out of context, but I get an 520 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: alert on my phone. I get an email immediately going 521 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: there is a problem on Lucy's phone, and I immediately 522 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: look up to see what the problem is. A lot 523 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: of times she's downloaded a video where the word is 524 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 1: in there and it's not an actual exchange, but it's 525 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: so scary. Things pop up all the time. Tammy. I 526 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: think Jackie may be right here in the studio with me, 527 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: because bullying has been around forever, but we did not 528 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: see a wave of children committing suicide. It seems like 529 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 1: the change has been the cyber bullying. Tammy. I agree. 530 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 1: In fact, two weeks after Aaron died, there was another 531 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: boy from the same school that hung himself because of 532 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: the same reason. You're kidding, No, no, I'm not, Oh 533 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: my Starry. He died on the twenty sixth of January, 534 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: where Aaron died on the what is the school saying 535 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: nothing at all, Danny, believe it or not, I'm actually speechless. 536 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: John Limley, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, You didn't 537 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: tell me that. You didn't tell me that. In one school, 538 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: in a space of weeks, two young children committed suicide 539 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 1: because of bullying. What school district is this? John Limley? 540 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: Who is this? It is unfathomable. What is going on 541 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 1: in schools these days? We were talking earlier about Rosalie, 542 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,760 Speaker 1: the first sound we heard of Vila, Rosalie a Vila, 543 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: and she experienced NonStop verbal abuse. But to make matters worse, 544 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: classmates were circulating a video portraying what an ugly girl 545 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 1: looked like and what a pretty girl looked like, and 546 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 1: used a picture of Rosalie to portray the ugly girl. 547 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: And forgive me for interjecting my own opinion, but she 548 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: was anything but ugly, a beautiful child. The video was 549 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: circulated throughout the school and online. It went viral and 550 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: it's so sad. In her suicide note, Rosalie apologized to 551 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:25,399 Speaker 1: her parents for being ugly and asked that in her 552 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: obituary they not post her picture so people wouldn't make 553 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: fun of her Nancy Willard, attorney and author to Be 554 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: Positively Powerful, an empowerment plan for teens who are buoyed 555 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: or harassed. I mean, what do you make I'll talk 556 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: like that. What is happening in schools? If you look 557 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 1: at the data, and by the way, if you're writing 558 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: a chapter on bullying, I'd love to share data with you. 559 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: What schools are doing flat is not working. We have 560 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 1: data from the Center for Disease Control asking students about 561 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: being bullied. They really started asking a question in two 562 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 1: thousand and nine. There has been no decline what happens 563 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: when these incidents are reported because they've got this very 564 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:17,800 Speaker 1: strict definition of bullying in the statutes, the principle that 565 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: tends to rationalize. They rationalize in four ways. They say, 566 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: it was kids being kids, locker room talk, it's not bullying, 567 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: So there's nothing I can do. Your child is overreacting, 568 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: and if your child would just stop blank, then this 569 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:41,800 Speaker 1: wouldn't happen to your child. And part of the problem 570 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: is our schools are educators. School leaders are so overwhelmed 571 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: by the lack of funding and by this myopic focus 572 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: on test scores, they don't have time to deal with 573 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: this but we've had this rational school shooting. It's the 574 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: same such. I mean, the data show that the young 575 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: people who engaged in school shooting also have been bullied. 576 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: And what we hold on just a moment, wait a minute, 577 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: I want to back it up to that issue about 578 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: the bullies to Steve and Tammy Fuller, Tammy, did you 579 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 1: know who the bullies were? Yep, all four names, but 580 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: the parents didn't know. Why weren't they ever kicked out? 581 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: That's a good question. You should ask the Lake Local 582 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: School fat could? They won't tell me? Steve, do you 583 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 1: have any idea? I mean they were they ever placed 584 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: on suspension or kicked out or anything? No? And from 585 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 1: what I was told by a few different people that 586 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: the mother didn't even know, and the mom was not 587 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: notified at first, and then we found out at Aaron's 588 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:03,320 Speaker 1: funeral that the boy and his mom came to Aaron's 589 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: funeral and he signed Aaron's tasting. Let me ask you this, Steve. 590 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: You say that at night you still say good night. 591 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: You know, I still talk to my dad like he's 592 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 1: right here with me, and I think it's just because 593 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: I can't think that he's gone. Do you ever feel 594 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: like Aaron is trying to give you a message or 595 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: reach you. Steve, absolutely. Yesterday there were songs that come 596 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: out in the radio and I just broke down and 597 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 1: started crying. My wife asked me what was wrong, and 598 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: then she heard the song and she knew immediately that 599 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: I was thinking of Aaron. And it breaks my heart 600 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: because I also found out that there's a little boy 601 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 1: that has autism at at school and he was being 602 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: picked on and Haron would try to help him out, 603 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: and they were really close friends, and he was he 604 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: was being picked on on the bus just a few 605 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: few weeks ago, and his mom went and talked to 606 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:30,359 Speaker 1: the principle and that me at the school, and they 607 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: sent him home with a pair of headphones so he 608 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: didn't have to listen to the bullies on the bus. 609 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: Why is everybody so worried about the bully? It may 610 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 1: not be effective. Hey, I have an idea, Site Fuller 611 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: and Tammy Fuller. Throwing the bully out of school may 612 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: not be effective and rehabilitating the bully, but I guarantee 613 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: it'll be effective for saving the victim. Why not just 614 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,799 Speaker 1: kick the bullies off? I don't get it. I mean, 615 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy. What am I missing? Why not kick off 616 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,359 Speaker 1: the bully or kick out the bully? Why do you 617 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: put the bully ahead of the other children. There are 618 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 1: plenty of alternative schools that can have the bully if 619 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:22,719 Speaker 1: they haven't no bully policy. Why isn't it's set up 620 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 1: to where the first time the kid gets suspended, the 621 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 1: parents get notified. The second time that happens, he gets expelled, 622 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 1: or the third time somebody's going to commit suicide and 623 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: the parents are going to suffer. To Tammy Fuller, Aaron's 624 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:46,360 Speaker 1: step mom. You're so close to Aaron. Do you feel 625 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: that he is trying to give you messages? Is he 626 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: trying to communicate with you in any way? Every day? Yeah? 627 00:42:55,120 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: Little things. I'll hear something fall and I'll say here, 628 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: I know he's here. I know he's with us. He 629 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 1: comes to me in dreams, I know he's there. John Loomley, 630 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: I don't understand why, why it's still happening. How many 631 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: children have to commit suicide and endure suffering at this 632 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 1: school and other schools and nothing is done. Probably the 633 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 1: same administration is still in place, nothing has changed. And 634 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 1: it's amazing, Nancy. Kids are amazing, period but what they 635 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 1: can find to make fun of everything. With Aaron, it 636 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: was if he forgot to pack his lunch and didn't 637 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,839 Speaker 1: have money, telling him that his parents must not love enough, 638 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: love him enough to feed him. They made fun of 639 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,720 Speaker 1: the way he dressed. In fact, at Christmas, he didn't 640 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,439 Speaker 1: ask for a lot, but what he did ask for 641 00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 1: or clothing shoes from brand names, because he'd be made 642 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 1: fun of if they were not. He would trade out 643 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,200 Speaker 1: a pair of new shoes from Walmart for an old 644 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 1: pair of Nikes, so old the shoe, the souls were 645 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: falling off, but the name brand was better to ward 646 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 1: off the taunts. And school districts just don't seem to 647 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: be able to keep track of all this when I 648 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: guess there are so many other issues at hand. Well wait, wait, wait, whoa, whoa, 649 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,280 Speaker 1: whoa whoa, Wait a minute, John Linley, you just heard 650 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: Tammy and Steve say they told the administration they did 651 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: know about it. It's not a matter of keeping trap 652 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: because they're overwhelmed. That's their job. Their job is to 653 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: keep track of it. To Steve and Tammy, to you, Steve, 654 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:53,839 Speaker 1: you guys spent so much time with Aaron, and you 655 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 1: did everything right So what is your message, Steve, What 656 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,280 Speaker 1: is your message to parents listening now, parents that are worried, 657 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 1: Parents like me, I'm worried. I'm worried. What can you 658 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 1: tell me? Well, you said that we spend a lot 659 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: of time with him, We've done everything right. But no 660 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,719 Speaker 1: matter how much time you spend with your children or 661 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 1: you ask questions and stuff, you can't always do everything right. 662 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: And you have to teach your kids that, no matter 663 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:38,719 Speaker 1: what their choices are, everything's not going to be right, 664 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 1: but you do the best you can. My message would be, 665 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: talk to your kids every day, ask them how school was, 666 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 1: sit down at a family dinner every day, and find 667 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,719 Speaker 1: out what's going on in your kids' life. Because if 668 00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:01,400 Speaker 1: you don't, and you don't try to protect them some way, 669 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,719 Speaker 1: then it eats with you. Guys with me. Tammy and 670 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: Steve Fuller, the parents of Aaron Fuller, a sixth grade 671 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: boy that thought there was no other way to end 672 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:17,000 Speaker 1: his bullying other than to commit suicide. God rest his soul. 673 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace's crime story signing off Goodbye Friend,