1 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: I'm George Severis and I'm Julia Claire and. 2 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 2: This is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our 3 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 2: cultural fascination with the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we go 4 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: into one aspect of the Kennedy Story, and today we 5 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 2: are checking back in with the FX series Love Story. 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: Jfk Jr. And Carolyn Bissett. 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: We discussed the first three episodes a few weeks ago, 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: but since then the series has quickly transcended the Kennedy 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: universe and become the single most streamed limited series on FX, 10 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: as well as TikTok's favorite TV show. A dubious honor. 11 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 2: That's right, a heated rivalry. I am sorry, but your 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: time in the spotlight is over. We're now all wearing 13 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 2: simple slip dresses and smoking parliaments while running from the paparazzi. 14 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and along with all the praise, there has also 15 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: been some criticism of the way certain story line and 16 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: characters are portrayed. 17 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: So we just wanted to take an episode to discuss 18 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 2: the general response and backlash to the show, share our 19 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: own perfect opinions about it, and just sort of check 20 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 2: in with the Kennedy story that, against all odds has 21 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: been the most popular among the general population in an 22 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 2: era where you know Kennedy is literally destroying the Department 23 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 2: of Health, another Kennedy is runing for Congress in New 24 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 2: York City. None of that has gotten lips of flappin' 25 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 2: Like the Ryan Murphy series Love story JFK. Junior and 26 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 2: Carolyn Bassett, And you know what. 27 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: I feel like, I know why I feel like. This 28 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: is not a novel insight, but you know, sometimes, like 29 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: brief situationships can be even more devastating than the breakup 30 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: of like many years. Yes, that's what this feels like. 31 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: It's like JFK. Junior, all he was was potential, and 32 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: carolynset as well. They were both so young and also nineties. 33 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: New York has never looked so good. 34 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 2: It's it's like harmless nostalgia, because it is nostalgia without 35 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 2: any of the baggage of nostalgia. What are you even 36 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: nostalgic for when you're nostalgic for photos of JFK. Junior 37 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 2: and Carolyn Besset. It has nothing to do with politics. 38 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 2: No one can name any specific opinion either of them had. 39 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 2: It's just sort of like, wouldn't it be great if 40 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 2: things were fabulous. 41 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be amazing if we were smoking parliaments and 42 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: none of us had cell phones and you could just 43 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: wear an air and knit sweater and beat up your 44 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: boyfriend in battery park. 45 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 2: That's right. So I guess we should start with before 46 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: we get into wade into the discourse, you know, on 47 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 2: social media and the pages of the New York Times 48 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 2: and elsewhere, we should talk about our own responses to 49 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: the show. We were sort of both tepidly positive about it. 50 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: After the first three episodes, we recognized that it was 51 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 2: completely fictionalized and you know, kind of bought into the 52 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: Kennedy mythology in an entertaining and not completely you know, 53 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: horrible way, and we were able to kind of turn 54 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: our brains off just enough to kind of enjoy it 55 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: for what it is. Now we are, I want to say, 56 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 2: four or five episodes later. Where where do you stand? 57 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: I have really kind of mixed, ambivalent feelings about the show. 58 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: I'll give it a compliment sandwich, which is it looks incredible, 59 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: which I said last time again nineties New York has 60 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: never looked so good. The soundtrack, I want all of 61 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: it on a playlist. It is like truly the greatest 62 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: hits of the nineties. I was listening to a lot 63 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: of it. I went up to Santa Barbara a few 64 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: weeks ago. I was in LA and then I went 65 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: to Santa Barbara, and I was like listening to like Damn, 66 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: I wish I was your lover on the drive up. 67 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: I mean linger by the Cranberry. 68 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: I mean, come on. Also like some great Madonna songs, 69 00:03:58,840 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: like just. 70 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: An Unexpected Ones too. Whoever is in charge of the soundtrack, 71 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 2: I mean, truly hats off, because they really are. It's 72 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 2: so great at setting a vibe. I mean, the show 73 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: is ultimately a mood board. 74 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: It's a mood board. And whoever is in charge of 75 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: selecting the songs, I want to give you a smooch. 76 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: You're so good. You did everything right. And so I 77 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,559 Speaker 1: love how it looks. I mean it's beautifully shot, which 78 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: you simply cannot say for all FX series. The colors 79 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: are really rich. Everyone looks great. I'm a little bored. 80 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: I'm a little bored, which I didn't think that I 81 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: would be. And I was there when we first talked 82 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: about it a few weeks ago. I was like, there 83 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: were some points at which I was a little bored. Now. 84 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: I'm just like, I don't know, I'm really it's dragging 85 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: for me a little bit again, which is crazy because 86 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: these are two intensely interesting, glamorous people. 87 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: Well, they're certainly glamorous, intensely interesting. I think the jury 88 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 2: might be out. 89 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe I'm giving maybe I'm giving 90 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,799 Speaker 1: them two. I do think Carolyn Bissett is really interesting, 91 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: and she clearly was like a super magnetic person. I 92 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: do believe that she was way more interesting than oh 93 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: completely even the show is able to portray. I don't know. 94 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: I feel my big criticism from last time was that JFK. 95 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: Junior was written and acted as to aw shucks, yeah 96 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: and kind of this again. I just felt like the 97 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: writers kind of portrayed him in this like very weird, 98 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: obsequious way. And I do feel that we are given 99 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: a little bit more in the next few episodes, like 100 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: he's a little bit more charismatic, he's a little bit 101 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: more charming, But overall, I don't know, and I really 102 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: hate the dialogue between like he between JFK Junior and 103 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: Caroline Kennedy. It's all so like kind of what we 104 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: talked about the last time, like so self conscious and 105 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: like everything sounds like it's. 106 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 2: Reading off a Wikipedia. Yeah. It's kind of like what 107 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 2: if we took a Wikipedia page and narrativized it, Like, yeah, okay, 108 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 2: So your task in this scene is to mention that 109 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 2: there was this cover of the National Inquirer, and you 110 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 2: can dramatize it, you know, you can kind of make 111 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: it your own. But that is the point of the scene. Yeah, 112 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 2: it is very like history history report. 113 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: Yes, but I'm still like overall having fun and I 114 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: do still want to go blonde and blast SAgs. So 115 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: I think in that way, the show is doing its job. 116 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: All right. So that's your compliment, Sandwich, That's right, how 117 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 2: are you feeling? I mean, this is such a completely 118 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 2: backhanded compliment that I would almost call it an insult. 119 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: But you know, we've been reading a lot these days 120 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 2: about second screen television shows. You know, there was that 121 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: article about how Netflix movies are made such that the 122 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 2: plot has to be repeated a few times, like the 123 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 2: stakes have to be repeated a few times throughout the 124 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 2: movie because they specifically are making content for people that 125 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 2: are watching television while also on their phone. There was 126 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 2: also part of it like a part of the article, 127 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: or maybe it was a different article about how in 128 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 2: action movies, the biggest action sequence has to happen in 129 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 2: the first like five or ten minutes, because you need 130 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: to keep people interested, whereas it used to be that 131 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: you saved your best action sequence for the finale. Anyway, 132 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: point being, I think as much as a as a 133 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 2: lover of art and a viewer film, I do not 134 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: want us to go towards a second screen reality. I 135 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: have to say this show is perfect second screen viewing, 136 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 2: and I find myself, especially because you know, we are 137 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: watching it for work often it is so easier for 138 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: me to watch it while adding to our little Google 139 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: doc while answering an email about how we're rescheduling or recording, 140 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: while kind of like seeing something that's happening on screen 141 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: and then googling it to fact check it in real 142 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 2: time that anytime I take a phone break, I'm really 143 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 2: not missing much, right And again, you know, am I 144 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 2: Is that the praise I would give to you know, 145 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: the Sopranos, or Sex and the City or like an 146 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 2: amazing iconic show. No, but that is how I'm currently 147 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: living my life. I am doing emails while watching and 148 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 2: let me tell you's loving its work, and I am 149 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: sending emails left and right. So I think that if 150 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: there if I can turn this into a compliment, it's 151 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: that like, if we are already living in a world 152 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: where all television is kind of bloated and made to 153 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 2: be watched as a second screen, this is kind of 154 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: the best version of that, Like I think it is. 155 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 2: It is perfectly kind of middlebrow and you know, goes 156 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 2: down easy. You know your heart isn't beating the whole time. 157 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: I agree with you that it's a bit of a 158 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 2: slog I certainly don't think it needs to be eight 159 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 2: hour long episodes, but if you accept that that's what 160 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: it is, which I have, I'm sort of, you know, 161 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 2: enjoying it minute to minute. I really am still very 162 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: impressed with Sarah Pigeon the same. 163 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: And also I should say I think I was a 164 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: little hard. 165 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 2: He's getting better as it goes. 166 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: I think, so I was. I was gonna say I 167 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: was a little hard on Paul Anthony Kelly, and I 168 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: do think that he is getting better and better and 169 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: I think his acting is better with every episode. And 170 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: Anthony Kelly, if you're listening, I'm sorry, And I was wrong. 171 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: Yes, and he is listening. And he was crying last 172 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: last time we talked about him, and now he's smiling 173 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: ear to ear. Yeah, he's saying, I have not received 174 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,199 Speaker 2: this level of praise on my acting in a while. 175 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 1: And baby boy, your hair looks so good. Your hair 176 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: looks so good. 177 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 2: His hair looks great. I do think, unfortunately, as much 178 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 2: as he is getting better, I agree Sarah Pigeon is 179 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 2: still acting circles around him and that only brings him 180 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 2: to relieve how kind of not as good he is, 181 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: which is just unfortunate for him. And it's not his 182 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 2: fault that his acting partner is actually sort of one 183 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 2: of the biggest breakouts of television in the last like 184 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: t years. 185 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: It's really incredible. Yeah, she is. This is something that 186 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: we said on the last episode that I really wish 187 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: I do almost wish this, instead of being love story, 188 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: had just been the Carolyn Bassett. 189 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 2: Story, which it technically is based on the biography of her. 190 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: Yes, So I really think this show just would have 191 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: made a lot more sense and would have been even 192 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: better if it had been the Carolyn Bissett story. And 193 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: like everyone else, was just kind of a side character. 194 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: And I actually think a lot of the best parts 195 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 2: of the show are when a side character is introduced 196 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 2: and you know, they get a few scenes and you 197 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 2: like get it, and then we move on. I think 198 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 2: they did that perfectly with Ethel Kennedy. I think they 199 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: did that perfectly with Carolyn's mom. But then when they 200 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 2: try to draw out, for example, Caroline Kennedy, they try 201 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 2: to draw her out into this bigger part of the story, 202 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: but there's not enough there, in my opinion, for her 203 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,839 Speaker 2: to be such a recurring character. I kind of think, 204 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: as you're saying, if Carolyn, if it is the Carolyn story, 205 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 2: and she's sort of like the Carrie Bradshaw, and she 206 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 2: interacts with all these kind of like kooky individuals, and 207 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 2: there's the fashion people, there's the Kennedy people, there's the 208 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: you know, her own family, the people from back home. 209 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: I think it could be fun, but I think some 210 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: of the characters aren't fleshed out enough to warrant being like, 211 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 2: you know, series regulars or sort of like recurring guest stars. 212 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 2: But again, I'm kind of like I'm at a place 213 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 2: where I'm very comfortable accepting it for what it is, 214 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 2: Like I'm not watching it and being angry about it. 215 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 2: I'm kind of like, this is what it is. It's relaxing, 216 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 2: it's comforting. You do sort of if you allow yourself 217 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 2: to like get into it, you do sort of feel that, Wow, 218 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 2: they what a love story. They're you know, they have 219 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: each other even though everyone else is against them. Something 220 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: I I know that. I know that we just said 221 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: we wanted less jfk Jr. But if we're gonna have 222 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: this much jfk Jr. Something that would be fun to 223 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 2: me is to see a little more of the inner 224 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: workings of George Magazine. I feel like it's a bit 225 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 2: surface level, and as someone who is craving that nineties 226 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 2: New York nostalgia, so much of that is the power 227 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 2: that print media used to have. Yeah, and to me, 228 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 2: one of the interesting things about him starting George Magazine 229 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: is that he had such an antagonistic relationship with the 230 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,839 Speaker 2: press that it is very interesting that he himself would 231 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 2: start any form of journalism outlet, and so the tension 232 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 2: there is very interesting to me. And instead we're just 233 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 2: getting sort of like, Okay, like Carolyn helped with choosing 234 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 2: Cindy Crawford as the cover star. 235 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be back with more United States of Kennedy 236 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: after this break and we're back with more United States 237 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: of Kennedy. I think, to echo something that I said 238 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: on the last episode about Love Story is that there 239 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: is like a latinus to the characters, and we just 240 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: know that the real life characters were so alive that 241 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: it almost feels criminal to portray them as such. I 242 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: don't know, Like, again, I don't feel that JFK. Junior 243 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: is written with the kind of like animal magnetism that 244 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: it clearly had. And I don't know how you like, 245 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: I'm not a narrative fiction TV writer, so I like, 246 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: I've never done that level of like character development for 247 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: episodic television. I don't know what is entailed in that, 248 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: but I just know that there is like a dullness 249 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: about this depiction of JFK. Junior that I'm just like, well, 250 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. I've gone back and watched some interviews 251 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: with the real JFK. Junior and his little guest starring 252 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: appearance on Burfy Brown, and like, this guy was you 253 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: couldn't take your eyes off him. 254 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that, really, I think the lack of 255 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: that chrisma really comes through when you see him doing 256 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 2: the press conference for the launch of George magazine, because 257 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 2: it's so clear that what that scene should be about 258 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: is how he is controlling the press. Not controlling the press, notive, 259 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 2: but how he's sort of like playing it like a fiddle, 260 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 2: like he's allegedly so good in front of the camera 261 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 2: that he's like joking around with the press at the 262 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 2: launch and sort of referencing the controversies about him. But 263 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,479 Speaker 2: in this show, everything is the threat of the paparazzi 264 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 2: and everything is taken so literally that it doesn't see 265 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 2: that it seems out of place for him to suddenly 266 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 2: have a sense of humor about it. 267 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like a real incongruity with the way he's 268 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: written throughout the show as well. It's just like clearly 269 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: they keep jumping back and forth between like real life 270 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: and the fictionalized version, and it creates for this like 271 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: awkwardness and a lack of continuity. But I'm really not 272 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: surprised that people are loving this show and George and 273 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: I read a few different pieces of criticism from the 274 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: Atlantic and The Times, and also Darryl Hannah's obed about 275 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: the show in the Times. But basically it makes a 276 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: lot of sense that, like particularly gen Z loves this show. 277 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 2: That's right. I have a tweet here from the journalist 278 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: Hidi Moore. It says the blondes on TikTok are really 279 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 2: feeling their oats about imitating Carolyn Bes said Kennedy right now. 280 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 2: The basics have not been this excited for a personality 281 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 2: transplant since Carrie Bradshaw. I'd say a bit a bit 282 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: rude to blonde women on TikTok. Yeah, but if you 283 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 2: take out the if you take out the real condescension, 284 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: I would say it is true. The blonde women on 285 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: TikTok are really embracing the Carolyn bessaid Kennedy look and ethos. 286 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 2: I think it is inherently so funny to see people 287 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 2: try to emulate something that is meant to be effortless 288 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: and innate. I don't know, it's like trying to be 289 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: Julia Roberts or something. It's like the whole point of 290 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 2: Julia Roberts is that she just smiles and everyone thinks 291 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 2: like it's innate and she's born with it, and like, yes, 292 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: obviously it's calculated to some extent. I'm not saying she's like, 293 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 2: oh shocks like she knows she's a movie star, but 294 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: you can't suddenly wake up and decide I'm gonna be 295 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 2: Julia Roberts. 296 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, well, the whole thing of like imitating 297 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: Carolyn Bessett's personal style is that she was someone with 298 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: like really strong, innate personal style and an innate sense 299 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: of what she liked and disliked. So copying her misses 300 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: the whole point. 301 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. And even if she didn't have the innate style, 302 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: she also was an actual fashion professional, like this isn't 303 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: this isn't an it girl. That's like someone they discovered. 304 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 2: I mean they did in fact discover her at them 305 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 2: all if we're being real, but she is. She also 306 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: was up with the trends, working with literal Calvin Klein 307 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 2: like thinking on her. You know, she's borrowing certain things 308 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 2: that she saw, she's making them her own. You know, 309 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 2: it's a little different to just sort of be inundated 310 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: with content and think that wearing you know, vintage Levi's 311 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 2: jeans and white and a white Oxford is gonna is 312 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 2: gonna get. 313 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:16,239 Speaker 1: You there, right, And so one of the pieces the 314 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: essays that we read was a former guest, former friend 315 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: of the show. 316 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 2: Yes, for every friend of the show, Glennis McNicol, who 317 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 2: has really been banging the drum on Carolyn Besset Kennedy 318 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 2: for over a decade when we had her on. She 319 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 2: she has written about Carolyn a few times, but her 320 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 2: first piece about her, I think was in like twenty 321 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 2: sixteen in Town and Country, and it was about sort 322 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 2: of like Carolyn Bassett as a fashion icon before you 323 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 2: know people on TikTok we were talking about her, and she, 324 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: you know, took this opportunity to write about Carolyn Bassett 325 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 2: as a historical figure in the in the Times opinion pages, 326 00:17:58,240 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 2: and we both really liked it. 327 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: I loved it, and she kind of gets at what 328 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: I think a lot of the Zoomers are loving about 329 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: this show, which is, as we said, nineties New York 330 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: just like looks absolutely incredible. There is not a cell 331 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: phone insight. It's just everything is so tactile and real. 332 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: I think this is a big credit to the show 333 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: as well, and the world building with the sets and 334 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: the clothes, and after as we said, after the initial controversy, 335 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: they got all of these archival pieces from the nineties 336 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: and everything just like looks and feels more expensive and like. 337 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean she made the point which I hadn't 338 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: considered that, like there was this sort of calm before 339 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 2: the storm feeling, I guess is the argument she's trying 340 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: to make in the nineties, pre nine to eleven. But 341 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 2: also it was before technology took over everything and we 342 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 2: started living in this kind of environment of semi mass surveillance. 343 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 2: Even when it's not top down, it's it's just all 344 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 2: around you. It's like everyone is on their phone. Anything 345 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: can be photographed or videotape at any given moment. If 346 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 2: you are, let's say, you know, a cool it girler 347 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 2: it boy going out, you know, you have to be 348 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: aware that at any given point, you know, your your 349 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 2: actions could be tracked whatever. And there is something about 350 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 2: the almost like the metaphor of when Carolyn starts dating 351 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 2: a Kennedy she is suddenly hounded by literal like surveillance 352 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: technology in the form of the paparazzi. That's almost like it. 353 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 2: I think I think Glynnis sort of makes the very 354 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 2: delicate metaphor that it's like it symbolizes how all of 355 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 2: us stopped having privacy after that era. It was, it's 356 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: like the Golden era of you know what we think 357 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 2: as like sex and the City New York just sort 358 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: of ended in kind of like post nine to eleven, 359 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 2: post iPhone world. 360 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, And there's also just like a really satisfying friction 361 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: to watching her go about watching this Carolyn Bissett like 362 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: go about her day. Glennis talks about how she like 363 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: uses cash at the news stand and buys a Vogue 364 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: and a pack of cigarettes or whatever, and like so 365 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: much of that again, the tactile friction of our day 366 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: is gone. And I do think also like one of 367 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: this goes into why why the zoomers are loving it? 368 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: Because there is like one of the big trends right now, 369 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: as it were, is going analog and like analog hobbies 370 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: and old clock radios and like all of these kind 371 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: of vestiges of this of the nineties and early two 372 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: thousands are kind of of becoming a trendy. And it 373 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: does just like life looks a lot simpler back then, 374 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: even like even for someone who was like dating at 375 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: Kennedy and life, her life was very complicated. Like there's 376 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: just a really nostalgic simplicity about it that I think 377 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: a lot of us crave. 378 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 2: I think I think that's the before and after Kennedy 379 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: of it all is like, yeah, her life was actually 380 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: more glamorous pre Kennedy because she was able to just 381 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 2: like the city was her oyster. It's like a kid 382 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 2: that just got out for recess. Like it's just she's 383 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 2: so ready to drink it all in and then suddenly 384 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 2: there's this oppressive you know, the Kennedy world sort of 385 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 2: closes in on her. I mean, I realize I'm talking 386 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 2: in broad strokes and this is the fictionalized account, but 387 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 2: for the sake of argument, it's like she the freedom 388 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: quote unquote that she had that is what made her 389 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,959 Speaker 2: cool and sexy is gone. And then suddenly post wedding, 390 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 2: she's basically like, as Glenna says, there're a punzel of Tribeca. 391 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 2: She's just like locked in the apartment and any freedom 392 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: and effortlessless to her life is sort of gone. I mean, 393 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 2: I had thought about the nostalgia for the nineties in 394 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 2: terms of the aesthetics, in terms of you know, the 395 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: big names that we all recognize, like Calvin Klein and 396 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 2: Kate Moss and whatever, but it is just on a 397 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 2: more specific level actually about just lack of technology, Like 398 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 2: it really is often as simple as that. Like that 399 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 2: is what made that era so kind of ethereal and 400 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 2: mysterious is actually that it wasn't documented. I mean, it 401 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: was documented a little bit. It was documented in the 402 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 2: pages of tabloids and magazines and stuff, but there was 403 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 2: some scarcity and the images from it, like you actually 404 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 2: had to look for them, You had to the constant 405 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: image image production and myth making cheapens. Something like that 406 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 2: just is how it is. 407 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think there's something too about being like unobserved, 408 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 1: not you know, the way in which Carolyn was, not 409 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,719 Speaker 1: only before she kind of got with JFK. Junior, but 410 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: also in the way that like all of us were 411 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: able to be kind of like anonymous and unobserved before 412 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: the advent of smartphones. Yeah, like now everything, I mean 413 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: it's like such a hack observation. But like obviously everything 414 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: is documented, everything is photographed, everything is made for consumption 415 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: and viewing, And so it makes like all the sense 416 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: in the world that there would be this nostalgia for 417 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: a time in which we weren't all like when you 418 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: could just go about your day. We weren't always like 419 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: performing for one another. 420 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, before we move on to Daryl Hannah, which I 421 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 2: know we want to talk about. I do want to 422 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 2: shout out one kind of funny coincidence that Glennis points out, 423 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: which is, you know, the comparisons between Carolinbussett and Carrie Bradshaw. 424 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 2: We've now mentioned a few times. They're pretty tenuous, but 425 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 2: it's just like they're both like cool, thin blonde women 426 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 2: that you know, have made New York their oyster. But 427 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 2: she says in the piece this is Glennis Sex and 428 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 2: the City, which premiered in June nineteen ninety eight, gave 429 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 2: us a very glossed up version of this New York 430 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 2: and the language for Miss Bessett's single life. That's no 431 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 2: surprise Kendace Bushnell was navigating the city around the same time. 432 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 2: In her New York Observer column, she once wrote a 433 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 2: piece about her own dalliance with Michael Bergen, the same 434 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 2: one time Calvin Klein underwear model Miss Beset dated this 435 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 2: so perfectly encapsulates, honestly, what I imagined with rose colored glasses, 436 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 2: this kind of downtown New York was like like, of course, 437 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 2: Carolyn Bessett hooked up with the same kind of like 438 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: blist Calvin Klein underwear model that Kendace Bushnell literally wrote 439 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: in the Sex and the City column. If you click 440 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 2: that link, it is in the Sex and the City column. 441 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 2: And as we said the last episode, it's very funny 442 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 2: that that guy now is fully a realtor in Los Angeles. 443 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: The paragraph that immediately follows that is the one that 444 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to point out, which was kind of mythbusting 445 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: about how rosy this picture of nineties New York was. 446 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: She said the city was rife with racial tensions and violence, 447 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: and the suggestion that people felt optimistic about the future 448 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: is misplaced. Just as artificial intelligence has many of us 449 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 1: anticipating a coming tech apocalypse, the city and the world 450 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: at that time were gripped with a very real fear 451 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: of Y two K, which is so funny to think 452 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: about now, because you know, George and I are famously young, 453 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: But it is funny to think about I don't know 454 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: Y two K, like this idea of Y two K. 455 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 2: I guess I was, we are, you know, to come 456 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 2: out old enough to be away to remember the Y 457 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 2: two K fear, but I guess not old enough to 458 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 2: have realized that it was serious. I was kind of 459 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 2: like I thought it was a joke. 460 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,719 Speaker 1: I thought it was like in the ether. I don't know, 461 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: it was like in the background. I just didn't think 462 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 1: it was like serious. 463 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 2: I think glynnis sort of toes the line gracefully and 464 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 2: well between kind of like buying into the rosiness of 465 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 2: the nostalgia and also and also critiquing it. But we 466 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,719 Speaker 2: should say she does make the nine to eleven metaphor 467 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 2: very clear. At the end, she says, she says Miss 468 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 2: Beseaid Kennedy's life, like so many others, the Kennedy family 469 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 2: would end tragically when a plane piloted by mister Kennedy 470 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: and flying her and her sister Lauren, crashed off Martha's vineyard. 471 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: This era of New York would also end tragically when 472 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 2: planes were flown into the World Trade Center on September 473 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 2: eleven of the two thousand and one. So there is 474 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 2: just something about the end of an era, so to speak. 475 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 1: Oh. 476 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 2: The other thing I wanted to mention quickly is just 477 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 2: to go back to George Magazine for a second, because 478 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: I had made a note of this one thing that 479 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 2: we learned in our George Magazine episode, which is in 480 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 2: the Rolling Stone article that read for it is that 481 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 2: when the Cindy Crawford George magazine cover happened. The options 482 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: they actually had photographed her with a fake bulge as 483 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 2: George Washington, so they had like stuff to sock in her, 484 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 2: oh like on around her crotch to make it look 485 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 2: like she had a big bulge. And then, if I 486 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 2: remember correctly, JFK. Junior is the one that saw the 487 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 2: photos said this is vulgar. Lets airbrush it so that 488 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 2: it's smooth. It was either I think it was that 489 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 2: it might have been the opposite that he was advocating 490 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 2: for it and someone else that said no. But but 491 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 2: that was I was kind of surprised if that wasn't 492 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 2: dramatized because that seems like exactly like the kind of 493 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 2: thing Ryan Murphy would think is so funny and you know, irreverent, 494 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 2: because there is in fact a part of the show 495 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 2: where he's flipping through options for that exact cover, which 496 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 2: for anyone who hasn't seen it as Cindy Crawford dressed 497 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 2: as George Washington. So I did want to kind of 498 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: shut that out because sometimes truth is like funnier than fiction, 499 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 2: Like you're sort of like, that is a funny, that's 500 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 2: a true funny scene, and there you could really see JFK. 501 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 2: Junior's personality. 502 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: We're going to take a short break, stay with us, 503 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: and we're back with more United States of Kennedy. 504 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 2: All right, let's talk about Daryl Hannah. 505 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: Okay, So on the last episode where we discussed the 506 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: first few episodes of Love Story, we talked about how 507 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: dirty they did Darryl Hannah in this portrayal of her. 508 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: They make her like just such an airhead, a ditsy 509 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 1: blonde and really. 510 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 2: All these like coke fueled parties. 511 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: She's being really inappropriate and Jackie hates her, and it 512 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: was just it really sets her up to be the 513 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: villain and the obstacle for JFK Junior and Carolyn to overcome, 514 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: and definitely not reflective of the like five year relationship 515 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: that these two people had, which I think is like, yeah, 516 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: the same amount of time yeah, as Carolyn and JFK 517 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: Junior were together. 518 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's especially ironic because allegedly part of 519 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 2: them of both the book but this show is based 520 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: on and the show is to kind of reclaim Carolyn's 521 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 2: legacy because she was seen as such a kind of 522 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 2: kind of money hungry cold Ice Queen when she was alive, 523 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 2: and it is interesting that in the process of doing that, 524 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 2: they are sort of throwing a different woman under the bus, 525 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 2: who is very much alive and able to watch this 526 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 2: portrayal of herself. 527 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: So Daryl Hannah wrote an op ed for The Times 528 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: called how can Love Story get Away with This? And 529 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: I think it opens with if you've seen the show, 530 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: it opens with a banger, which is Jacqueline on Nassis 531 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: once gave me some wise advice. She told me that 532 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: while tabloids, magazines and newspapers often sold ridiculous lies, there 533 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: were nothing more than birdcage liner by the next day. 534 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: At the time, I found great comfort and consolation in 535 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: these words, but they no longer hold true. And then 536 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: she goes on to like contrast that with the digital age. 537 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting too, and pointed to open 538 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: this op ed with a private moment between Jackie O 539 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: and Darryl and the real Darryl, because the show portrays 540 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: Jackie as like truly hating her and like refusing to 541 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: go to dinner with when she's there, and that was interesting. 542 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 2: It's also such an f you to basically tell them 543 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: like no matter how much research you think you've done, 544 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: or what you've made up or whatever. Like I have 545 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 2: actual memories, yes, with these people, and I have had 546 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 2: private conversations that you will never be privy to when 547 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 2: you are writing you know my character. 548 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I just you really feel for her. I 549 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: mean I felt for her even before this op ed existed. 550 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: But two, I mean, it just must be so crazy making, 551 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: even when there's a disclaimer at the beginning of every 552 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: episode that this is like a fictionalized version of sort 553 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: of true events. To be a real person and to 554 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: be essentially like collateral damage in this show must be 555 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: like crazy making. 556 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 2: Well, especially when this was surely a traumatic regardless of 557 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 2: whether they had broken up or not. Her very recent 558 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 2: ex was killed tragically. She was this was like at 559 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 2: the peak of her fame. She was already then portrayed 560 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 2: as kind of like a ditsy blonde. It's something that 561 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 2: it's funny like when I personally before all of this, 562 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 2: when I personally thought of Daryl Hannah, I didn't think 563 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 2: of her dating JFK JR. I thought of her in 564 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 2: you know splash, I thought of her and kill Bill. 565 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 2: I thought of her recently being very kind of charmingly 566 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 2: gen x lib at the Oscars and throwing up a 567 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 2: fist for Ukraine, Like I kind of think of her 568 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 2: as this like charming icon who now is like grandfathered 569 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 2: in is one of the kind of greats of a 570 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 2: certain era of Hollywood, and so must be distori ending 571 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 2: for her to suddenly, thinking she had transcended this one 572 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 2: era of her life, be brought right back into it. 573 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: Right And there are people, which she says in the 574 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: op ed, there are people, younger people, I assume, with 575 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: no media literacy, who are like literally writing a hateful 576 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: emails and dms and comments to her because they believe 577 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: that this Daryl Hannah in the show is real. And 578 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: you know, to have like a really important relationship in 579 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: your life, drudge it up fictionalized and then casting you 580 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: as the villain must be just like incredibly painful. We 581 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: should read a few lines from the op ed. It's 582 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: very similar to what we talked about on the last episode. 583 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: She says storytelling requires tension, It often requires an obstacle, 584 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,719 Speaker 1: but a real living person is not an airraive device. 585 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: There was also a gendered dimension to this thinking. Popular 586 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: culture has long elevated certain women by portraying others as rivals, 587 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: obstacles or villains. Isn't it textbook misogyny to tear down 588 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: one woman in order to build up another? 589 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 2: You know. 590 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: She goes on to basically like deny the series of 591 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: events that the That Love Story portrays as fact, like 592 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: she was a coke head and she was. She pressured 593 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: JFK Junior into marriage and compared Jackieo's death to her dogs. 594 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and she she says she's portrayed as quote irritating, 595 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 2: self absorbed, whiney, and inappropriate, which is true, that is 596 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 2: how she's portrayed. Yeah. 597 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 598 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 2: I mean these things are tough because I completely empathize 599 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 2: with her, and I would hate to, you know, were 600 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 2: I a beautiful blonde actress, I would hate to be 601 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 2: portrayed in this way in a television series. That said, 602 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 2: do I think the show has the right to fictionalize 603 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 2: however they want? Essentially, yes, like I do think I 604 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 2: don't think this disqualifies the show. I think it is 605 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 2: a fictionalized account. And I think any fictionalized account down 606 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 2: to I don't know, all the presidents, men or whatever, 607 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 2: in certain kind of like recent history narrative here is 608 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 2: going to go ahead and take some liberties. But I think, 609 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 2: I don't know, it's sort of like part of the 610 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,240 Speaker 2: beauty of living in a country with like free speech 611 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 2: is that then she is also allowed to write an 612 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 2: op ed kind of disputing some of the things that 613 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:32,879 Speaker 2: are that are portrayed in the show. So I don't 614 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 2: necessarily think her account is you know, made me hate 615 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 2: the show or made me you know, made me think 616 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: it's completely immoral. But I think it is a very 617 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 2: important addendum that like I'm happy is I'm happy is 618 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 2: out there? 619 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we should also say that I think her 620 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: criticisms are completely fair. And then but then in the 621 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: op ed she does go on to talk about how 622 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: she's been like like an advocate for environmental causes and 623 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: seniors living with Alzheimer's and dementia and stuff like that, 624 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: and it does get a little there was just there 625 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: was some stuff in the op ed that I was like, Okay, well, 626 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: we don't need. 627 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 2: Well she I mean, she is ultimately, you know, a 628 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 2: wealthy actress that has devoted her life to basically attending galas, 629 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 2: which I say, with no like, I think it's much 630 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 2: better than other things, much better than other things. You could, 631 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 2: you could be doing with your life. But I think 632 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 2: certainly there is some ego there that is part of this. 633 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 2: I mean, she's literally a movie star. 634 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's. I mean she's also like a kooki lady. 635 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: Like she's she's a kookie She's a koki lady. She's 636 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,399 Speaker 1: she kind of always has been, and I think she's 637 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: gotten even kookier and more eccentric with age. She has 638 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: a sort of Sharon Stone quality totally. She's been a 639 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: kooki lady in the public consciousness for decades. So while 640 00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: I did think that a lot of her criticisms weren't 641 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: hirely fair, I also thought the kookier elements of it 642 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: were so we're so darrel. And the last line of 643 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 1: it is bird cage liners by degrade online lies in 644 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: duer may love and truth prevail. 645 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 2: Wow, of course, bird cage liners being a reference to 646 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 2: the aforementioned Jackie Kennedy quote that newspapers and tabloids become 647 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 2: bird cage liners the next day. I mean, you know what, 648 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 2: and you know the other thing about all of this 649 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 2: is like, actually, what's sort of tragic about it is 650 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 2: that her real personality, as we're saying, is more kooky 651 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 2: and interesting than the one portrayed like that would have 652 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 2: been the real challenge, how to portray this kind of 653 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 2: like vivacious, you know, bleeding heart interesting kind of character 654 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,919 Speaker 2: like I do think I'm sure that they had some 655 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 2: sort of volatility in their relationship her in jfk Junior. 656 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously they ended up, you know, getting back 657 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,359 Speaker 2: together and breaking up so many times. But I think 658 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 2: the veilin so that is portrayed a little incorrectly, if 659 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,720 Speaker 2: I were to imagine. 660 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: I agree with you, and I also think that there 661 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: are so many writers, both male and female, that do 662 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: not know how to write a kooky female character while 663 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,439 Speaker 1: also not making her dumb. 664 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 2: And not making her manic pixie dream girl. 665 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, like she's earthy and like a little spiritual, Why 666 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,399 Speaker 1: does she also have to be dumb? So the last 667 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: thing we'll talk about is this great piece in The 668 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 1: Atlantic by Megan Gerber. It's called a love Story is 669 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: a Horror Story, and the subtitle is the show which 670 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,760 Speaker 1: deeply empathizes with John F. Kennedy Junior and Carolyn Bassett 671 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: is ultimately just a paparazzo by any other means. And 672 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: there were just so many bangers in this piece. I 673 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: thought it was a really kind of thoughtful and measured 674 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 1: criticism of the show and talks about many of the 675 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: things that you and I have discussed, George, which is 676 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: the interesting place that Love Story occupies in the Ryan 677 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: Murphy universe because it is it's similar and different. It 678 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: is a lot kinder to its subjects than a lot 679 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: of other you know, like American crime story, American sports story. Monster. 680 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: So I pulled some of the some of the aspects 681 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: of this piece that I think really really hit the 682 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: themes that we have explored, and one of them was, 683 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 1: this is a hay geography fit for an age that 684 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: prefers its heroes to be relatable. Love Story, by turns, 685 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: elevates its lovers, pities them, humanizes them above all, it 686 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: sympathizes with them. But a compelling fiction is fiction all 687 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: the same. It also talks about how the true crime 688 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: genre is intensely moralistic by nature, and we don't really 689 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 1: think of Love Story as a true crime show, but 690 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: it kind of has that tint. 691 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 2: I mean, I think anything with the Kennedys is on 692 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 2: some level a true crime show. I mean, the whole 693 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,760 Speaker 2: idea of the Kennedy curse and what is happening behind 694 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 2: closed doors and the paranoia and the conspiracy theories. I mean, 695 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 2: it is at least spiritually true crime. 696 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 1: Basically, this piece in the Atlantic really explores the way 697 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 1: in which the paparazzi are condemned in Love Story. But 698 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 1: how kind of ironic that is, she says, But Love 699 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 1: Story offers its condemnations without seeming to wonder whether a 700 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,839 Speaker 1: work of semi fiction, a full scale imagining of two 701 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: people's lives, is a paparazzo by other means. And I think, 702 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: you know, we talked about that last time, that like, 703 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: these two people were so exploited by the media, and 704 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: that is one of the central tenants of the show. 705 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: But the show itself is like yet another exploitation of them. 706 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 2: It honestly reminds me of I don't know, like the 707 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,400 Speaker 2: Free Britney documentary or something where, Yeah, the whole argument 708 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,800 Speaker 2: it's making is that Britney spears was her life was 709 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 2: ruined by paparazzi and by the tablage of the two thousands, 710 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,919 Speaker 2: and then it's literally sort of platforming these people whose 711 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,399 Speaker 2: entire life is like stalking her Instagram and posting things 712 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 2: about her they don't even know. And I mean, it's 713 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,919 Speaker 2: a tenuous connection, but I do just think oftentimes we 714 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,399 Speaker 2: think we're so much more enlightened than we actually are, 715 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 2: and in many ways, the current media environment is way 716 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,359 Speaker 2: more toxic than either you know, two thousands blogs or 717 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,399 Speaker 2: nineties tabloids, right. 718 00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 1: And I also think that, you know, especially over the 719 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: last however many years, we've done kind of like a 720 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: cultural reckoning with the way that certain women in the 721 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: public eye were treated in the nineties in particular, and 722 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 1: another Ryan Murphy project, the Impeachment, that's right, you know, 723 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: Monica Lewinsky is like the protagonist in that show. She 724 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,360 Speaker 1: was also the real Monica Lewinsky was also an executive 725 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: producer on that show. And I don't know. Again, I 726 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 1: think that if this had been the Carolyn Bessett story, 727 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,400 Speaker 1: that might have come through a little bit more. But 728 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: to me, one of my issues with the show is 729 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: that it doesn't go far enough in like the reckoning 730 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: with that and again just kind of like exploits Carolyn 731 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: in a different way. The paparazzi made her out to 732 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: be and like the tabloids made her out to be 733 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: like a coped up a bitch, and this show is 734 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,439 Speaker 1: kind of deifying her in a certain way. 735 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 2: And she's also it's she's a perfect person to kind 736 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 2: of mythologize about because she died very young, so we 737 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 2: only have these very youthful, beautiful images of her, and 738 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 2: because famously, as we said a bunch of times, there's 739 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,439 Speaker 2: like barely any footage of her speaking or living other 740 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 2: than you know, still images and the argument at the 741 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 2: park and whatever else. 742 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 1: We have no idea what her opinions were. We don't 743 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:31,760 Speaker 1: really know any of her true beliefs. She's perfect. She's dead, 744 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: young and beautiful, and she will be young and beautiful forever. 745 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: One of the other angles that I think is particularly 746 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: pertinent to our show, that Meghan talks about is where 747 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 1: love story comes in in this moment in history. She said, 748 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,320 Speaker 1: love story airs and streams in a moment when the 749 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,759 Speaker 1: Kennedy name has lost much of the cultural currency it 750 00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: once had. Robert F. Kennedy Junior, the slain President's nephew 751 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,240 Speaker 1: and John Junior's cousin, has made a name for himself 752 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: by turning conspiracy theories into national policy. Camelot, always a fantasy, 753 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: looks ever more like delusion. I think we talked about 754 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 1: this a little bit last time, but like we are 755 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,239 Speaker 1: in a moment where I think we're ready for the 756 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 1: Rosie picture of Camelot to be punctured, and there's something 757 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: about the portrayal of the Kennedys in this show that 758 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: feels almost not of the moment and completely I completely 759 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,959 Speaker 1: agree a little like ten plus years ago. 760 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny, and I actually think that might be 761 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,680 Speaker 2: why gen Z is reacting so strongly to it, is 762 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 2: because they don't remember the old Like we grew up 763 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 2: with the Kennedy's being mythologized in this way, and so 764 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,399 Speaker 2: you know, I'm seeing it, and I'm obviously kind of 765 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 2: slightly rolling my eyes at some of the more rosy depictions. 766 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 2: But I think if I was, you know, nineteen twenty one, 767 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 2: the only Kennedys, I guess I would know, really, I mean, 768 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 2: I would know RFK Junior as the primary one because 769 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,320 Speaker 2: he's in the news so much, and then maybe I 770 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:12,280 Speaker 2: would be aware of you know, Jackie Oh or obviously 771 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,879 Speaker 2: jfkos if I like in history, but I just mean, 772 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 2: like in terms of the Kennedy's as kind of like 773 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 2: pop cultural figures. So I do think it's so exciting 774 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 2: for them to like discover that there was this sort 775 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 2: of like American royal couple like this without any of 776 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,239 Speaker 2: the baggage that maybe we grew up with being like 777 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 2: a tiny bit older. But yes, it is. It is 778 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 2: such a funny time to be mythologizing about the Kennedys 779 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 2: in such a disconnected way when the ones that are 780 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:42,359 Speaker 2: in the news now are flopping so hard. Because it's 781 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,359 Speaker 2: like we we have certainly talked about RFK Junior and 782 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 2: Jack Schlosberg repeatedly on the podcast. We haven't checked in 783 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 2: on them in a few episodes, but it's just, you know, 784 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 2: RFK Junior is still sort of a complete embarrassment. Jack 785 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:05,280 Speaker 2: Schlasberg is running for Congress and not really connecting with anyone. 786 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 2: It all feels very forced. He was just on CBS 787 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 2: Mornings and kind of like couldn't really give a coherent 788 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:12,919 Speaker 2: ancest why he was running. 789 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,000 Speaker 1: So like better than he should be. Wait, what about 790 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:18,839 Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi? What did she do well? 791 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 2: She endorsed him? No I didn't, which to me, is 792 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 2: I mean, listen, maybe I'm wrong. I was gonna say 793 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 2: it's like the kiss of death because it shows how 794 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 2: the image he's trying to project, which is that he's 795 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,440 Speaker 2: like an interesting young voice, is not is not in 796 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 2: fact self evidently no true considering he is, you know, 797 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:43,320 Speaker 2: another Kennedy with very kind of like murky, not clear politics. 798 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 2: But I guess he I guess you're right that he 799 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:47,440 Speaker 2: is leading in the polls. 800 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 1: I have to imagine that that is just like a 801 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 1: name recognition thing, and boy do I hope that that's corrected. 802 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 1: But also if any district in New York is going 803 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 1: to be gonna be wo by by Kennedy, Kennedy with 804 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 1: nothing to say, uh, it is them. 805 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,880 Speaker 2: No, it's true, It's true. In conclusion that Kennedy's are 806 00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 2: a land of contrast is as always where we land. 807 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,400 Speaker 2: It really is. I'm every time I try to assess 808 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,000 Speaker 2: whether you know the Kennedy the power of the Kennedy 809 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 2: name is on its way out, something like this happens 810 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:25,319 Speaker 2: or I'm like, wow, So this is the number one 811 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,080 Speaker 2: show in the country and Jack Schlasberg is leading the 812 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 2: polls in his congressional race, like and as we said, 813 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,239 Speaker 2: rf K Junior is literally in the in the administration. 814 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,040 Speaker 2: So who knows, maybe we'll be still talking about. 815 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: Them in twenty RFK Junior has brought back measles, and 816 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 1: congratulations to him. 817 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, talk about nostalgia. He's a nostalgic for measles. Well. 818 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 2: We wanted to jig In on the show before the 819 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 2: finale because, you know, we wanted to we wanted to 820 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,440 Speaker 2: stay current. We're obviously we wanted to take advantage of 821 00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,880 Speaker 2: the fact that this is the number one Kennedy story 822 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,919 Speaker 2: in the entire time in doing this podcast. Yeah, And 823 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 2: I don't know, it's been fun. I don't regret watching it. 824 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 2: I don't feel like it's been wasted time. Like I've 825 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,439 Speaker 2: watched so many things in the streaming era that I'm like, God, 826 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 2: I wish I had spent my time doing literally anything else, 827 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:13,440 Speaker 2: and this isn't one of them. 828 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,880 Speaker 1: I know. And I I think you and I maybe 829 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,840 Speaker 1: have slightly different relationships to the things that we watch 830 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:26,200 Speaker 1: because you, as you mentioned, you watched so much of 831 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: the of Ryan Murphy's Beauty. 832 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 2: I know, thankfully I did stop. 833 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,719 Speaker 1: And you also watched in just like that. And there 834 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:35,800 Speaker 1: are so many things where I'm like, George. 835 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,400 Speaker 2: Please have I know, why are you doing this? 836 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 1: Have a modicum of self respect? 837 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 2: I know, And yet I refuse to. 838 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,440 Speaker 1: But so in that way, yes, I can see that, 839 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,360 Speaker 1: like compared to some of the other things that you watch. Wow, 840 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:51,800 Speaker 1: this is really good. 841 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:56,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, it's amazing for having one on the background 842 00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,719 Speaker 2: while you're doing emails, and that is that is put 843 00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 2: that on the cover of the DVD collection From the 844 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 2: co host of the United States of Kennedy, George Severes. 845 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 1: Oh God, bless enjoy. 846 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 2: The finale everyone. We unfortunately do know what happens, and 847 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:14,239 Speaker 2: it's not a happy ending. 848 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, no spoilers though, we won't. 849 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, we're not going to spoil anything. And 850 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,480 Speaker 2: that's it. And next week we have a really good episode. 851 00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:26,120 Speaker 2: We're going back to the main Kennedy siblings and we 852 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,239 Speaker 2: are talking about Eunice Kennedy, who we really knew very 853 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,759 Speaker 2: little about, and now we are complete converts. We are 854 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 2: team Unice all the way. She's our favorite Kennedy. It's 855 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 2: a really good interview and we can't we can't wait 856 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:41,319 Speaker 2: for you to listen to it. 857 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,879 Speaker 1: Make a biopic about Unice next time. 858 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 2: Oh my god, I would love that. No one would 859 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,120 Speaker 2: watch it because it's about an actual smart and empowered no. 860 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,360 Speaker 1: But it's like about a mouthy tall broad love, I 861 00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:55,879 Speaker 1: love her. 862 00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,880 Speaker 2: No, she's great, She's our favorite, all right, that is 863 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,680 Speaker 2: for this week's episode. Subscribe and follow United States of 864 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:05,920 Speaker 2: Kennedy for all Things Kennedy every week. 865 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,240 Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy is hosted by me Julia Clair 866 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:11,320 Speaker 1: and George Severies. 867 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,279 Speaker 2: Original music by Joshua Topolski. 868 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:15,840 Speaker 1: Editing by Graham Gibson. 869 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 2: Mixing and mastering by Doug Bame. 870 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,320 Speaker 1: Research by Dave Ruth and Austin Thompson. 871 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,120 Speaker 2: Our producer is Carmen Laurent. 872 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,520 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Jenna Cagele. 873 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:25,960 Speaker 2: Created by Lyra Smith. 874 00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,360 Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy is a production of iHeart Podcasts