1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature Feature production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host 2 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: of Mini Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology, 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: and today on the show it's another listener's Questions episode. 4 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: Every week, well not every week, but you know occasionally 5 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: I do these. You write to me your questions, and 6 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: I try to answer them the best that I can. 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,319 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your emailed questions. If you're 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: listening to this and you're saying, hey, I have an 9 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: evolutionary biology question, a question about animals and parasites and 10 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: so on that I would like answered, you can write 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: to me at Creature Featurepod at gmail dot com. So 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: let's get right into your questions. Hi, Katie. I found 13 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,959 Speaker 1: a new subreddit called Crowbro. There's lots of cute stories, pictures, 14 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: and videos of people friending or feeding corven. I saw 15 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: this lovely post, and I guess I have never seen 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: ravens up close before. They're beautiful. It looks like they 17 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: have feathers coming from their face down their beaks a bit. 18 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: Is there any reason evolutionarily why they would need feathers 19 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: on that part of their beak? Is this normal for 20 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: more or all birds asking the true bird lady, do 21 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: you think it would benefit to get rid of those 22 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: stragglers or to keep them or get more. I'm not 23 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: sure why I'm surprised to see it, but truth be told, 24 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: I don't look at birds too closely because well, they're 25 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,279 Speaker 1: flight risks. Some screenshots attached in case it gets removed 26 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: or anything. Thank you Chloe Story. So, first of all, 27 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: that's an incredible subreddit. I'm very much in favor of 28 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: befriending ravens and crows with photographs and tasteful snacks, and 29 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: this is an absolutely fantastic observation and wonderful questions about 30 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: the feathers around their beaks. So both ravens and crows 31 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: have feathers that covered the tops of their beaks allthough, 32 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: so in general, raven beak feathers and also their little 33 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: throat feathers, like their little beards, tend to be shaggier 34 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: than crows, but they both have them. So interestingly, those 35 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: feathers do cover their nostrils, which is something that isn't 36 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: found in all birds, so that seems like that might 37 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: be giving us a hint as to what they're for 38 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: the fact that they are so far down on their 39 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: beaks that it's also covering their nostrils. Then again, many 40 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: other birds don't have any feathers covering their nostrils, so 41 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: what gives, Like, what is going on here? So what 42 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: are those feathers? Those feathers on top of a crow 43 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: or raven's nose are called Richdal bristles. They're present in 44 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: other birds, but in many bird species they're smaller and 45 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: less noticeable, maybe even absent. But some of them have 46 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: them where they're just kind of like whiskers above their beaks. 47 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: So their purpose seems to be widely very in birds, 48 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: having evolved and been lost multiple times. Some birds seem 49 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: to use them as sensory organs, similar to cat whiskers, 50 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: and there has been a study that found that species 51 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: who are active in low light conditions grow longer Rickdal bristles. 52 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: But that's a bit different from this question in terms 53 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: of the corvids, because their bristles aren't long in the 54 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: sense of like cat whiskers, where they're sort of sticking 55 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: out as sensory organs. They're long and then flat against 56 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: their bills. So I'm not sure if using them as 57 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: a sensory organ is the answer there in terms of 58 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: our crows and ravens. So you'd think that the fact 59 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: that ravens and crows and other corvids have a high 60 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: density of richtal bristles over their beak would be easily 61 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: explained like kind of a standard crow fact, standard raven fact. 62 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: But actually no. So the purpose of richt ol bristles 63 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: and the reason for the differences and their shape and 64 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: density is somewhat debated, and it seems somewhat understudied. So 65 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: let's look into this. Let's try to come up with 66 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 1: some theories and think through what might make sense. So 67 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: why might they be covered? Let's compare them to other birds. 68 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: Let's look at sort of features of crows and ravens 69 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: and try to figure out what are some of the 70 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: possible theories for these these feathery beaks. So the first 71 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: thing I thought of was like, well, does this have 72 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: something to do with them being carrion birds? So while 73 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: it is true that crows and ravens do eat carrion, 74 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: it seems like, so you know, maybe the covered beaks, 75 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: maybe that's some kind of protection keeping stuff out of 76 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: their nostrils, keeping pathogens out of their nostrils as they 77 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: root around in carrion, and that could be the case, 78 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: and there is certainly an incentive to heap like blood 79 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: and guts and stuff out of their nostrils or to 80 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: help protect their nostrils from pathogens. But there are other 81 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: carrion birds, like many species of vultures and condors, that 82 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: have relatively naked beaks, whereas there's other carrion raptors like 83 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: bearded vultures who feed mostly on bones, who do have 84 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: beaks that are covered in bristles, kind of similar to 85 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: ravens and crows, which is really interesting. So you have 86 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: both both of these kind of styles. Most of these 87 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: fashions and birds who eat carrion where some of them 88 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: their beaks are covered, some of them are uncovered. So 89 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure whether eating carrion has anything to 90 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: do with the state of feathers on their beaks. So 91 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: bearded vultures, crows, and ravens who do have covered nostrils 92 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 1: do live in environments that can get really cold, so 93 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: you know, I looked into other birds, like birds who 94 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: are cold specialists. It does turn out that penguins who 95 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: live in cold environments also have nostrils that are covered 96 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: in like these velvety feathers, which may help them with 97 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: temperature regulations. So that's one possibility, right, Like the feathers 98 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: on their beaks helps keep them warm in the cold, 99 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: But there are plenty of birds who live in cold 100 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: environments who do not have feathers covering their bills. This 101 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that the feathers aren't used to help 102 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: in the cold. Different species can approach problems from different 103 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: evolutionary angles, of course, but maybe some winter birds such 104 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: as cardinals who don't seem to have a ton of 105 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: feathers covering say their nostrils, have different techniques to stay 106 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: warm in the winter, and their behaviors are going to 107 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: be different from ravens and crows. So these these little 108 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: birds that often feed on seeds, they may have seed 109 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: stores which might require less exposure of the beak to 110 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: the cold, snowy forage. Like they're probably not getting into, like, say, 111 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: a frozen carcass with their beaks so much because they 112 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: eat seeds instead. And they have a different bill shape 113 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: which is kind of like a bit thicker and broader, 114 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: which is great for cracking seeds. So you know, maybe 115 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: they have a different technique for staying warm in the winter, 116 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: that doesn't require them to have as much coverage over 117 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: their bills. But you know, it could also mean that 118 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: the feathers over the beaks for ravens and crows has 119 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: nothing to do with staying warm in the cold. Interestingly, 120 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: rooks are a species of corvid with a distinctively bald beak. 121 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: Like this is a characteristic that if you're curious, like, hey, 122 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: why does this crow seem to have a white, sort 123 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: of featherless area around its beak, It's like, well, that 124 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: is actually probably a rook. So understanding why why rooks 125 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: are featherless might help us understand why crows and ravens 126 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: do have feathers on their beaks. So juvenile rooks actually 127 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: do have feathers on their beaks, just like crows and ravens, 128 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: but as they mature at around six months, they lose 129 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: these feathers. So often when there's a difference between juvenile 130 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: and adult morphology, it's either due to a vulnerability that 131 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: the juvenile has, or behavioral difference or sexual selection. So 132 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: a lot of say like penguin baby penguins have a 133 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: lot more down, a lot sort of fluffier. They're not 134 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: really built to say, swim around so much, but they 135 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: are built to be able to stay warm because they're 136 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: going to be a lot more vulnerable to the cold. 137 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: They won't need to swim because their parents are going 138 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: to be feeding them. And then they grow in the 139 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,439 Speaker 1: feathers that are more specialized for keeping them dry and 140 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: hydrodynamic as they grow older. Now, some birds also don't 141 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: develop their adult coloration until they are mature, so any 142 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: sorts of ornamentation, any kind of feather patterns that would 143 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: help for sexual selection, don't develop until they're older. So 144 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: these feathers on their beaks, there's like a few possibilities 145 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: right for why they have them when they're young but 146 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: not as adults. Like it could be that that bald 147 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: beak is a feature of sexual selection. It could be 148 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: that juveniles are more vulnerable to say, the cold, or 149 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: maybe to pathogens, and so having those feathers over their beaks, 150 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: over their nostrils is much more important for the young 151 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: rooks than for the adults, which, you know, it still 152 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: kind of presents this mystery because having a covered beak 153 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: as an adult seems like it could also have benefits. 154 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: So why did rooks lose this this covering, whereas other 155 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: corvids like ravens and crows seem to have these feathers 156 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: all over their beaks, you know, pretty far down. Actually, 157 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: it is quite noticeable once you do see them up close, 158 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: because it's true their feathers are black and it kind 159 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:17,599 Speaker 1: of blends in with their beak. But then once you 160 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: see it, you can't really not see it anymore. They 161 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: have these very fluffy beaks, especially ravens, because their feathers 162 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: a little shaggyar, so you can really notice that beak fluff. 163 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: So that's kind of all to say that I don't 164 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: necessarily have a really precise answer for you, not yet. 165 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 1: At least I will continue to look for when I've 166 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: reached out to some crow experts, some corvid experts, and 167 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 1: if I find a really compelling answer, like maybe some 168 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: new research or some really compelling theories, I will definitely 169 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: share them with you. This is just such a good 170 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: question because it's such a good observation, first of all, 171 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: to notice, yeah, they do have these feathers on their beaks, 172 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: and then also to think of like, hey, you know, 173 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: is this a normal thing for birds? What are those feathers? 174 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: What purpose could they serve you are definitely thinking like 175 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: an evolutionary biologist, that's a fantastic question. And yeah, it 176 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: is surprising to me always that sometimes there's a lot 177 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: of there are things that seem relatively like, yeah, we 178 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 1: should have an answer for that, but you know, it's 179 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: hard for me to find like a definitive study or 180 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: a definitive answer that seems to indicate exactly what those 181 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: that feature of the animal is. So in a way 182 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: that's exciting, right, Like, there's still things that are left 183 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: to figure out. So I will keep you updated. I 184 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: will continue to reach out to corved experts and see 185 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: if I can find out exactly why they have those 186 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: feathers on their beaks. My guess would be it's a 187 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: form of protection of some kind, Like it either keeps 188 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: their beaks warmth, or it's protecting their nostrils from say 189 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: dust or pathogens or something similar to say like eyelashes 190 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: on a human, right like, or nose hairs, right like, 191 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: something that is a part of like maybe their passive 192 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: immune system, right like they're keeping stuff out maybe because 193 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: they're so they have to be so omnivorous, so like 194 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: they'll they're definitely not above eating carrion, but they have 195 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: to eat different kind of weird things, so maybe that's 196 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: to help protect them. Whereas maybe a vulture that doesn't 197 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: have feathers on its beak has a different, like different 198 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: techniques for keeping pathogens out, like a maybe a different 199 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: part of their immune system that's a lot stronger. They 200 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: have highly acidic stomachs, things like that. So you know, 201 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: it's it's it is a really interesting thing. It's a 202 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: really interesting observation. So thank you so much for that question. 203 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,719 Speaker 1: All right, next listener question. This person received a newsletter 204 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: from dog Juice. I don't know what dog juice is, 205 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: but it sounds delicious, said Hi Katie. I received a 206 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: newsletter in my inbox from dog Juice today and found 207 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: this to be particularly interesting here to share jessec So 208 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: she links to a study called Sneeze to leave. African 209 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: wild dogs like on Pictus, use variable quorum thresholds facilitated 210 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: by sneezes in collective decisions. So this is a study 211 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: I'm actually familiar with. I think it's really really cool. 212 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: So just a kind of brief summary of it is 213 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: that this study found that African wild dogs engage in 214 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: sneeze democracy if one of them wants to move on 215 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: from somewhere, she will sneeze, and you know it's a 216 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: controlled sneeze, Like if you have a dog, you might 217 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: kind of know what this is. Like a dog can 218 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: kind of like do this sort of like a like 219 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: sneeze on command apparently, and like my dog does so 220 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: frequently when she's trying to tell me something. So and 221 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: these are African wild dogs who are not domesticated. They 222 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: are wild animals. They will they live in pack structures 223 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: with as a hierarchy. But interestingly they also seem to 224 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: really kind of rely on group decision making. So one 225 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 1: dog sneezes, and then maybe her neighbor agrees like yeah, 226 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: I want to move on, and then her neighbor sneezes, 227 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: and then if there's enough sneezing, like a critical mass 228 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: of sneezing, the pack will move on. It's like basically 229 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: like hey, who wants to get out of here and 230 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: go somewhere else? Dominant dogs in the pack might get 231 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: more clout for their sneezes. It's not maybe exactly one dog, 232 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: one sneeze vote, but it really does depend on the 233 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: other dogs agreeing. So if you have a domesticated dog, 234 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: you will know that they're highly social and they use 235 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: their sneezes to communicate to each other as well as 236 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: to us humans. Sneezes and dogs can mean distress or 237 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: a desire to play, maybe just to get your attention frustration. 238 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: Sometimes my dog loves to sneeze loudly and wetly into 239 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: my face when I'm not paying enough attention to her, 240 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: like when I'm writing my responses to listener questions for example. 241 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: All right, onto the next listener question. This is from 242 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: Scott M. Have you discussed carrion bees yet on the pod? 243 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: They are super cool bees that are adapted to eat meat. 244 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: So hey, Scott, you know what. I cannot remember if 245 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: I have discussed them or not, but even if so, 246 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: they are worth more than one mentioned because you are correct. 247 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: They are super cool and I could talk about them, 248 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: probably in their whole episode, but why not spit some 249 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: carrying bee facts right now? These are bees found in 250 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: South America in rainforests. They're also known as vulture bees, 251 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: and as both their names suggest, they feed exclusively on 252 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: dead animals, which is called obligate necrophagi, so that means 253 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: they have to eat dead meat. And that is what 254 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: they are involved to do. As honeybees are nectivorous, they 255 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: are flesh chivorous. That is not a real word, but 256 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: I just said that. So there are three species of 257 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: carrion bees. They're all very closely related, very similar. So 258 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: as creepy as it sounds, they're actually harmless to the living. 259 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: They don't have stingers. They're stingless type of bee. Like 260 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: honey bees. They live in use social colonies with defined 261 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: social structures, rolls and a queen. So yeah, they're essentially 262 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: like honey bees, but they don't have stingers, and they 263 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: eat you know, rotting flesh instead of nectar. So carrion 264 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: bees will find a carcass, just as a honey bee 265 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: would find a flower, and signals to other members of 266 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: the colonies to come join them. So they will crawl 267 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: into sort of orifices in the carcass to get to 268 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: soft tissue. One of their favorite places to climb up 269 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: in apparently is the eye socket, which you know, lovely 270 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: cute little bees. So they will start to chew little 271 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: bits of flesh away and they don't eat it right away, 272 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: they will carry it back to the colony. Now, this 273 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: is the point at which some of the research is 274 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: a little threadbare about these bees. We're not exactly sure 275 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: how they process these pieces and meats, but there's a 276 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: couple theories. So they The thing that researchers know is 277 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: that they steal the meat away and these little wax pots. 278 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: What they don't know is whether they do some kind 279 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: of pre processing, like pre digesting with like a special 280 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: gland or some enzymes, and then spit it into the 281 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: wax pots, or if they just place it directly without 282 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: doing any kind of digestion, and then inside the little 283 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: wax pots is where sort of all of the processing happens. 284 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: All the processing happens. So either way, the meat goes 285 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: through some sort of breakdown process in these wax pots 286 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: and it turns into a nutritional paste that the bee 287 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: can easily consume and digest over the course of a 288 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: few days. So at first people thought that this was 289 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: just honey right from like flowers, weird honey or like, 290 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: but it's actually kind of it's meat honey. It is 291 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: a nutritive substance made out of flesh rather than the 292 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: proteins found in plant pollen. So a study charmingly called 293 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 1: why did the bee eat the chicken, symbion gain loss 294 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: and retention in the vulture. Be microbiome examined the gut 295 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 1: microbiome of carrion bees versus nectivorous bees and found a 296 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: shift in what sorts of digestive bacteria live in the 297 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 1: carnivorous bees, So their guts are more acidic in general, 298 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: protecting them from pathogens that might be present in carrion. 299 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: So these bees have evolved from being nectivores, you know, 300 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: sipping nectar to eating meat, and meat can be a 301 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: lot more dangerous in terms of pathogens that can be found, 302 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: like bad bacteria that can be found growing on the meat, 303 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: and so if you eat that and you consume that 304 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: you don't have any defense against it, you can get 305 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: really sick. That's one reason that humans like our whole 306 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: thing is that we developed an ability to cook our meat, 307 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: which not only protects us from pathogens, but it also 308 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: helps process the meat a bit, which helps us digest 309 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: it more efficiently. And so that cooking has been really 310 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: important for us. And these bees have a double kind 311 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: of a double pronged approach here. Not only are their 312 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: guts more acidic, allowing them to digest meat better, they 313 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: also process it by putting it into these little wax pots. 314 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: So you know what, we really share a lot with 315 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: carnivorous bees. You think about it onto the next listener question. Hi, 316 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: I just listened to the episode about ear mites and 317 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: dog hair and have an allegory with photo receipts. I 318 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: adopted my dog Milly when she was seven months old 319 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: and she had short, straight fur. The first time she 320 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: went into heat, her fur grew about one and a 321 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: half inches and went full curly. Sue. She'll be three 322 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: on Valentine's Day and she looks like an orange and 323 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: white shag carpet. Love the show, especially when there's a 324 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: story about animals who do crimes or get sweet sweet revenge. 325 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: And this is from Michael, and I got photos of 326 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: smooth Milly and fuzzy Milly. I love so cute. Thank 327 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: you for sending me this very adorable and very important 328 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: case study of Milly's fluffiness. First of all, adorable, she's 329 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 1: adorable with both hairstyles. Tell her that she's beautiful no 330 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: matter what she does with her hair. And although I 331 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: do have to say I love the shag carpet version 332 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: of Milly, you know, thinking about it. Actually, my dog 333 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: went through something similar, not quite as dramatic as Milly. 334 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: But when she was a younger dog, when she was 335 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: a puppy, her hair was smooth, short and straight until 336 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know exactly, but I would I 337 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: want to say, like when she was about a year old, 338 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: maybe she got a lot fluffier, with a few curls 339 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: here and there. So like, hormones are really wild in 340 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: how much they can affect the body. As for animals 341 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: who get revenge, there's a few stories that I love. 342 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: Of course. One is that the fact that crows can 343 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: remember the faces of those who have wronged them, or 344 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: even the faces of those that they simply do not 345 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: like and find to be suspicious and questionable of character, 346 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: so that there have been these amazing studies by researchers 347 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: who will provoke them by holding up dead taxidermine crows, 348 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: which not surprisingly crows don't like. They don't like it 349 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: when you do that. But the researchers wore masks to 350 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: product their real identity, because the crows were able to 351 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: recognize their faces, the masked faces, and they would attack them. 352 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 1: They'd get really agitated and go on the offense against them, 353 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: which they had this behavior for many years, Like they 354 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: would learn to hold grudges for years and they would 355 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: teach it to their young. So I mean to be 356 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: fair though to these crows. I think that's completely justifiable. 357 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: If someone holds like a dead crow out to a 358 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 1: group of crows and they're also wearing this super scary 359 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: mask and they're like, hey, crows, what's up, Like you're 360 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: gonna not make friends with the crows? Like this is 361 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: the opposite, Like Listener mentioned the Crowbros subred out where 362 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: it's like you offer tasteful snacks and you take photos 363 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: of how pretty the crows are. That's how to befriend 364 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: a crow. This is how to the enemy a crow. 365 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: And you probably don't want to do that unless you're 366 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: a researcher whose identity is being protected by the Witness 367 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: Protection Service, because these crows will remember you and they 368 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: will attack you. So that's I do love that story 369 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: of animals holding onto a grudge, another fun act of revenge. 370 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 1: Actually bringing up another sort of creature that we talked 371 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: about today. Bees, different types of bees Asian bees, and 372 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: they have evolved to having a defense against Asian giant hornets. 373 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: So we had this big scare in the US where 374 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: we had some invasive Asian giant hornets, and it was 375 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 1: very concerning because the bees that live in North America 376 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: do not have defenses against Asian giant hornets. So these 377 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: these hornets who prey on bees were just going hogwild 378 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: on bee hives, and so and kind of intervention had 379 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: to happen in terms of trying to get rid of 380 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: these giant hornets. And in contrast, bees that are in 381 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 1: the sort of natural environment of Asian giant hornets, ones 382 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 1: that have co evolved with these hornets, do have defenses 383 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: against these murder hornets. So what happens is these bees 384 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: will surround the hornet and wiggle their cute little bodies, 385 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: generating a massive amount of heat. So, like one bee 386 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: wiggling might not generate a lot of heat, but if 387 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: you form a bee ball, a bunch of bees cramped 388 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: together like in a mosh pit, like all jiggling and 389 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: vibrating and beating their little wing muscles, they can actually 390 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: generate quite a bit of heat. That literally, once they've 391 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: completely ensconced this hornet, they can boil the hornet alive 392 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 1: and don't feel too bad for the hornet, because if 393 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: she had her way, she'd be beheading and eating scores 394 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: and scores of bees. You know, yeah, these these bees 395 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: have developed a strategy to counter the incredible ferocity of 396 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: Asian giant hornets. So real David and Goliath situation, except 397 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: it's like hundreds of Davids, all like Towerking to defeat Goliath, 398 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: which sounds fantastic. I'd love to see that. Also, I'm 399 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: sure that you've heard of orcas ramming boats, so I 400 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: would love to think that this is revenge against loud, 401 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: annoying motor boats in their territory. But according to whale biologists, 402 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: they're probably just being curious and having fun, which I 403 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe so Orca researchers like to point out 404 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: that if orcas really wanted revenge against boats, they could 405 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: do a lot more damage, and that they're most likely 406 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: playfully investigating their environment. On the other hand, I don't know, 407 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: Maybe these orcas are sending us a message anyways, don't 408 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: underestimate the orcas. If they wanted to mess with us, 409 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: I'm sure they could figure out a way to capsize 410 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 1: a boat. But doctor Deborah Giles, who is an orca 411 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: researcher thinks that an orca matriarch probably discovered how fun 412 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: it was to ram a boat and then taught the 413 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 1: boat ramming behavior to her family, and the tradition has 414 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: just spread. It's like basically a hot new Orca fad. 415 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: Because intelligent animals, especially social animals that learn from each other, 416 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: can have fads. Things catch on among them and they 417 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: do behaviors. That's kind of like the Japanese macaques that 418 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: learned how to wash yams and salt water. There's a 419 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: lot of behaviors that can become sort of go viral 420 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: among animals, and so apparently boat ramming is one of them. 421 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: So good job Orca's focus on the yachts. I say, 422 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: all right, onto the next listener question. Hi Katie, I 423 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: love your show and how much you managed to cover 424 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: the years while keeping an interesting Well, thank you. I 425 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: have a subject that I found interesting, and that's the animal. 426 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: So with autismo, CDADHD, depression or other symptoms that are 427 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: usually related to humans, are there enough studies to cover this? 428 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear about our fellow suffering creatures. Happy holidays, Arena, 429 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: Hi Arena, I definitely do think that animals can be 430 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: neurodivergent or suffer from mental illness in the same way 431 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: humans do, which is typically a mixture of physiology, so 432 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: something that sort of brain structures that you're born with 433 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: and environment, which is sort of the way in which 434 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: your brain structures sort of inact interact with your environment, 435 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: and then your environment in turn shapes your brain. So 436 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: it's very much kind of a complex recipe here where 437 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: it's not you know, the whole nature nurture debate in 438 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: terms of brains. It's like, in my opinion, based on 439 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: the evidence that I've read, like it's very much a 440 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: interwoven mixture. Like you have environment that has a very 441 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: strong role in brain development, but a lot of people 442 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,360 Speaker 1: are actually born with certain structures that are much more 443 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: likely to respond to their environment in specific ways. So 444 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: given that animals also have brains and interact with an environment, 445 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: I think it is almost a certainty. And it actually 446 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: has been documented in a lot of animals that some 447 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: of them are either neurodivergent or have mental illness. Now, 448 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: the sort of definitions of neurodivergence mental illness is very 449 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: much on one's experience, right, So like if you're a 450 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: neurodivergent you may not have, Like, your neurodivergence may not 451 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: be necessarily a problem, but the ways in which the 452 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: nerdivergent might make it difficult to say in you know, 453 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: socialization or something, or to interact with society. There may 454 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: be specific aspects of that neudivergence that can manifest as 455 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: like say, a mental illness. Like for instance, if if 456 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: you're neurodivergent with autism, I would say autism, in my opinion, 457 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: is not really a mental illness, but if you are 458 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,239 Speaker 1: depressed or anxious, like if you have a lot of 459 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: social anxiety, because your way of thinking makes it more 460 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: difficult to say, interact with others than that anxiety, and 461 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,959 Speaker 1: that depression is the mental illness where it's you know, 462 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: the autism is a form of neurodivergence. And so I 463 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, it's interesting because I have OCD 464 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: and OCD is generally accepted as a mental illness. But 465 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: I would kind of in my opinion, just as you know, 466 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: and I'm very open to people disagree with this, I 467 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: feel like OCD itself, this sort of the different kind 468 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: of way of processing information is not necessarily always disordered. 469 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: So like sometimes the way my brain works, the way 470 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: my brain processes information is can be quite helpful, say 471 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: if I'm writing something and sort of making unusual connections 472 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: or something that can be helpful to me, when it's 473 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: not helpful with like making connections that don't make any 474 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: sense or are interfering with my life, like say rituals, 475 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: where with OCD you have a couple you have both rituals, 476 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: say like oh, if I don't do X, like maybe 477 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: turn on and off a light switch or something, then 478 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: something bad is going to happen. And that's a ritual 479 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: attached to an intrusive thought. There's also purely intrusive thoughts 480 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: when it comes to OCD. So maybe a thought you 481 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: can't get out of your head that's unpleasant, or you 482 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: can start thinking things like making kind of I guess 483 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: like say you have an anxiety about something like oh 484 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: is this a freckle a mole or like skin cancer, 485 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: and then you just cannot stop thinking about it and 486 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: no amount of reassurance seems to help quiet that thought. 487 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: All of that can fall under the umbrella of OCD. 488 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: And so while obsessive compulsive disorder refers to sort of 489 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: the maladaptive behaviors, right, like the things that cause suffering 490 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: and difficulty for whoever's having it. I think the other 491 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: the sort of like other features of it, Like I 492 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: think it's probably there's sort of a different kind of 493 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: sensory processing brain that is like maybe behind the OCD 494 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: that to me would not necessarily I don't even it 495 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: probably doesn't really have a specific label other than neurodivergence. 496 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: But to me that part is not really mental illness, 497 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: because you know, when I have sort of maybe a 498 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: unique way of looking at things that isn't causing me suffering, 499 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: that's not causing me problems, if anything, that can be 500 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: useful for me. So you have both elements, and we're 501 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: just talking about humans now. So with animals it's a 502 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: lot more difficult to kind of bought these things and 503 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: understand what's going on. Because with the human a human 504 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: being can generally communicate, right, Like I can say like, yeah, 505 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: my OCD rituals cause me distress, cause me anxiety, interfere 506 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: with my life. I'm saying that as an example. I 507 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: actually I used to suffer from a lot of OCD 508 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: rituals as a child, as an adult. Most of them 509 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: are under control, but like a lot of people with 510 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: OCD will have say, rituals, like things repetitive tasks that 511 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: they don't really want to do, but if they don't 512 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: do them, they get really anxious. And so this causes distress. 513 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: It can cause anxiety, depression, It can just sort of 514 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: in terms of your daily routine, interfere with your life 515 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: because you're spending time on these things. In terms of animals, 516 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: they may be engaging in OCD rituals, but we can't 517 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: really ask them what amount of distress it's causing them. 518 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: We can only really guess. But there are some cases 519 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: in which I think we can pretty I would say 520 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: with a lot of confidence say like this is kind 521 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: of like an OCD ritual, and it does seem to 522 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: be done in a situation where the animal is anxious 523 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,959 Speaker 1: or distressed or bored or something. So the most documented 524 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: cases are in places like zoos because we can absorb 525 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: the animals more, but also because zoos presents an environment 526 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: that can be I think, more likely to produce like 527 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: mental illness and animals, so animals will get We don't 528 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,719 Speaker 1: really call it like OCD in animals necessarily, but in zoos, 529 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: like when an animal engages in a repetitive ritualistic behavior. 530 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: It's called a stereotype. So it's a repetitive compulsive behavior 531 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: like pacing, excessive grooming. The grooming can even be so 532 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: excessive it results in baldness or skin irritation, and really 533 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: extreme cases, it can even be things like slamming against 534 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: walls and self injury. So this is usually due to distress. 535 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: It could be due to loneliness, to boredom. It could 536 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: be due to lack of proper socialization, lack of space, 537 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: or stimulation, or conversely, it could be over stimulation or 538 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: being housed with an animal with whom they don't get 539 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: along and so they're suffering a lot of anxiety. Now, 540 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: this is not like a thing where it's like all 541 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: animals in all zoos suffer in this way. This is 542 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: specific to certain situations in zoos, So not all zoos 543 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: are bad. There's a lot of really good zoos. San 544 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: Diego Zoo is a good one in terms of taking 545 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: really good care of their animals, trying to make sure 546 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: that they're in good spaces. I do think that certain 547 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 1: animals probably are never going to be in an ideal 548 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: situation in a zoo. Something really big and really intelligent, 549 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: say like an elephant. I think that it's going to 550 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: be really tough to ever have a good environment for 551 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,439 Speaker 1: an elephant in a zoo, just because they in their 552 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,359 Speaker 1: natural environment, so much of their natural behavior involves like 553 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: roaming over long, long distances, and you simply cannot recreate 554 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: that in a zoo. But you know, what you see 555 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: is animals that if they are in a situation in 556 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: a zoo where they really don't have the right type 557 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: of environment, they will sometimes engage in these stereotypees, especially 558 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: because there's not really escape sometimes. So a lot of 559 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,399 Speaker 1: times in nature, say like if an animal is having 560 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: a conflict with another animal, it can like go off 561 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: find its own space and then kind of cool down 562 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: a bit. But in a more kind of confined environment, 563 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: maybe they can't do that. So either that could result 564 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: in fights amongst the animals, or you could have some 565 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: kind of behavior like excessive grooming, excessive self soothing that 566 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: turns into kind of like an OCD behavior, And so 567 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: this would I would think that, you know, this would 568 00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: be sort of a form of animal mental illness that 569 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: is definitely environmentally influenced. But the other question is, like 570 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 1: could an animal be born with, say like autism or OCD, 571 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: and you know, like like born with sort of a 572 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: a neural like structures that are more likely to end 573 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: up with sort of some some neurodivergence or some disorder. 574 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: I think it's really hard to exactly map human labels 575 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: onto animals, like say like this dog has OCD or 576 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: this cat is autistic. I don't know that we can 577 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: really do that because autism and OCD, all of the 578 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: definitions that we have are based on human behavior. It's 579 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: based on human emotions, human behaviors, human socialization. So you know, 580 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: we would really kind of need to come up like 581 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,439 Speaker 1: and I have seen, like, you know, some attempts by saying, 582 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: like in papers to come up with sort of specific 583 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: terms for animals, like compulsive disorders rather than like obsessive 584 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: compulsive disorder, right, Like stereotype ES is another one, which 585 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: is like, you know, this is a ritualistic behavior, because 586 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: you know, an animal's mental sort of landscape is going 587 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: to be a lot different from a human and so 588 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: the types of you know, using like a human sort 589 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: of diagnostic manual for an animal doesn't make a lot 590 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: of sense. But you know, I think that we can 591 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: definitely make these connections, right, like saying like, hey, this 592 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: is quite similar to OCD in humans, or this is 593 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: similar to anxiety or ADHD in humans, even if it's not, 594 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: doesn't like map on you know, directly onto the animal. 595 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 1: Most of our observations about say an animal being born 596 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: with a sort of different brain is going to be 597 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:53,240 Speaker 1: documented best in pets, domesticated animals, animals in captivity because 598 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: we just get to observe them more. Right, if you 599 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: have a dog, you're going to notice if the dog 600 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: seems to excessively groom groom himself or herself when she's 601 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 1: when she's anxious, right, Whereas we're maybe not going to 602 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,879 Speaker 1: be able to see that as much as in say 603 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: like a wild dog like or a wolf or a 604 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: coyote or something, because like if we see a coyote 605 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,359 Speaker 1: and it's got a bald spot on its butt, be like, well, 606 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: that could be mange, that could be from a fight. 607 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: We don't know. So without constant observation, you wouldn't know 608 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: if that coyote is doing some kind of nervous excessive 609 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: grooming on its butt. So but you know, like I 610 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: think everyone who has a pet, even if your pet 611 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 1: doesn't have any sort of specific issues. I think you've 612 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: all sort of experienced, like an animal having maybe a phobia, right, like, 613 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: which is really common in humans too, Like having a 614 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 1: phobia is like one of the most common you know, 615 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,800 Speaker 1: mental health issues and people, really common in animals and pets. 616 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: Because it kind of makes sense, like phobias are a 617 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: it's an exaggerated response to something that's seen as a danger. Oh, 618 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: and it is something that is probably really useful for 619 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: survival and animals and people, right Like something scares you, 620 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: you have traumatic experience, or you know, something seems dangerous 621 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 1: to you and you learn like, hey, this thing is scary. 622 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: That could save your life. But in the terms, in 623 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: terms of phobia, a phobia is defined by the fact 624 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: that it is not a reasonable response to something. It 625 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: isn't rational, and it is causing you distress. Right Like 626 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: if you if you have a normal fear of like 627 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: spiders or snakes, but it's not really in you know, 628 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,760 Speaker 1: causing you any distress, Like you can see a photo 629 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: of a spider and you're fine, you just don't want 630 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,359 Speaker 1: to like hold one. That's I don't think that would 631 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: generally be described as a phobia. It's really only once 632 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,720 Speaker 1: it's causing you distress, Like if you see a photo 633 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: of a spider, you start sweating, you start getting really anxious, 634 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: and uh, it's causing you distress. Then then that would 635 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,319 Speaker 1: be like a phob and these are often treated in 636 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: humans with like exposure therapies. Like by the way, if 637 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: you have a phobia and you're afraid of treatment or 638 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 1: you feel like there's no way for it to be treated, 639 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: phobias are one of the most treatable disorders, like mental 640 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: health issues in people through you know, I think it 641 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: can be really and I used to have a phobia 642 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: of graveyards actually, and anything that had to do with 643 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: like graveyards or death like coffins, gravestones, mummies, all these 644 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: things I had a very severe phobia of and it 645 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 1: was causing me issues and I went through sort of 646 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: a I would say, very gentle exposure therapy. But like 647 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: you know, so I would say, like, if you are 648 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: dealing with that, it is treatable. The treatment is often 649 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: basically like slowly and carefully introducing you to the the 650 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 1: thing that makes you scared in a safe environment so 651 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: that you learn that nothing bad happens to you. So 652 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,839 Speaker 1: it's it is. It is treatable. But the point that 653 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: I'm bringing this up is that in animals it can 654 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: be quite common. So, like, maybe you have a cat. 655 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 1: This is just an example, none of I'm not speaking 656 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,439 Speaker 1: for any of the cats in my life, but maybe 657 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: like a pillow, like he was sleeping on a pillow 658 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: and had a nightmare, or a pillow like fell on 659 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: him at one point, Like and it's a specific pillow, 660 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: say it's like a blue, fluffy pillow, and now this 661 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: cat is like terrified of this pillow. The pillow never 662 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: hurt the cat. The pillow is not a threat to 663 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 1: the cat. It's just the cat has made some negative 664 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,319 Speaker 1: association with this pillow, and now the cat's terrified of 665 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: this pillow. And anytime it's in the room with this pillow, 666 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: it freaks out, it panics and runs away. I'd say 667 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: this cat does have a phobia of this pillow, because 668 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: the pillows never actually hurt the cat. The cat's just 669 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 1: developed this extreme fear responds to a pillow, and despite 670 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: the fact that it's seen the pillow numerous times and 671 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: nothing bad has happened, the cat is retaining the phobia. 672 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 1: Another example, so my dog when she was young, was 673 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: attacked pretty severely by another dog, And even though we've 674 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: made a lot of progress over the years, she still 675 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 1: has serious trust issues and anxiety around other dogs, which 676 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: is pretty similar to say, like a phobia or a 677 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:25,399 Speaker 1: sort of PTSD, right like in humans. So like, even 678 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,839 Speaker 1: though we can't like I can't ask my dog, like, well, 679 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 1: how do you feel when you're around another dog? I 680 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: can see her body language, right Like, we've gotten to 681 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,439 Speaker 1: the point where she can go on walks and she's 682 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 1: not constantly agitated, but I can see like if she 683 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,879 Speaker 1: sees another dog, her body language indicates she's anxious, right 684 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: like her her tail may drop sort of below her feet, 685 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 1: her ears are back, you know, she her posture is 686 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,839 Speaker 1: a little more stiff, or she gets defensive, right like 687 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 1: her hair stands on end. The opposite, like, there's there's 688 00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: different ways a dog can show anxiety. Sometimes it's more 689 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: sort of like like inward anxiety or like passive anxiety, 690 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 1: where tail is down, ears are back, you know, posture stiff. 691 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,360 Speaker 1: Or it can be kind of a more aggressive version 692 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,439 Speaker 1: of anxiety where it's like tails straight up, fur is up, 693 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 1: you know, ears are up, postures stiff, but more like 694 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,280 Speaker 1: that that's kind of more of a defensive or offensive posture, 695 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: where it's like I will bark and bite you if 696 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,760 Speaker 1: you like come near me, because like I'm not joking, 697 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: whereas the other posture can be like I'm I'm scared 698 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: and I'm acting submissive and I'm a little bit nervous here, 699 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,400 Speaker 1: but I really don't want you to, you know, Like 700 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 1: it's both kind of a form of communication of the 701 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 1: dog warning the other dog or saying like, look, I'm 702 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: I'm really not here to make friends right now. I'm 703 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 1: not I'm not super happy about this situation. And there's 704 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,880 Speaker 1: a lot of subtleties with dog body posture, like sometimes 705 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 1: a tail can be up, ears can be up. Posture 706 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 1: can be kind of like alert, but it's not the 707 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 1: dog's not being aggressive or defensive. You kind of have 708 00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 1: to look for other cues right Like it's the first 709 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: standing on in like look at their face, like is 710 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,759 Speaker 1: the face friendly? Or are they like is are their 711 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 1: lips pulled? Back? Like? How stiff is the tail? How 712 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,719 Speaker 1: stiff and rigid is their posture? Like? Because they can 713 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 1: be alert and interested and curious without actually being aggressive. 714 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: I digress, I don't want to get too much on 715 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 1: the topic of just interpreting dog micro expressions, but anyways, 716 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: the point is, yes, I absolutely think that, you know, 717 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 1: neurodivergence and mental illness can be present in animals. I 718 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: think that it would be different from human like the 719 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 1: way that we categorize human mental illness. I mean to 720 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 1: be honest with you, Like we're constantly changing the sort 721 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: of diagnostics for human mental illness. We're also changing what 722 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: we consider to be mental illness versus neurodivergence, and there's 723 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: a lot of sort of gray area between the two, right, 724 00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 1: So it makes stands to reason that it'd be the 725 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,239 Speaker 1: same thing with animals. And also, like you like say 726 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: you could have some kind of diagnostic criteria for say 727 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: a dog, that's gonna be different for a cat, right 728 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 1: like you have every species of animals, and also animals 729 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,400 Speaker 1: in different situations, like a domesticated animal versus a wild animal, 730 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: They're just gonna have a whole different kind of mental 731 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: and emotional landscape and so behave a behavior that is 732 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,919 Speaker 1: normal for an animal, like certain animals will like eat 733 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,280 Speaker 1: their own young, right like if if if a human 734 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:36,320 Speaker 1: did that, not normal, not not good, not normal. So yeah, 735 00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: so it's gonna be different standards for animals. Depends on 736 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: the species, depends on the animal situation. But yeah, when 737 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: we do have these observations over long periods of times, 738 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,320 Speaker 1: like in zoos and domesticated animal situations and pets especially, 739 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,440 Speaker 1: I think the sort of stuff that we get in 740 00:45:54,520 --> 00:46:00,320 Speaker 1: terms of like ve veterinarians writing about clients and pets 741 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 1: is really interesting because I think that for the most part, 742 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: at most, a lot of these pets that come in 743 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:10,320 Speaker 1: presenting with say mental health issues, are being treated well 744 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: by their owners. Usually an owner who brings in a 745 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 1: pet is like, I'm concerned my dog is anxious. It's 746 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,920 Speaker 1: going to be treating that dog pretty well, even if 747 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,719 Speaker 1: there could be some mistakes that they're making, right, It's 748 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,879 Speaker 1: not like the dog is being abused. But like, that's 749 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 1: very interesting to me because that seems more applicable to 750 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: sort of like the range of human mental illness, because 751 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,719 Speaker 1: mental illness can definitely be caused by environment in human beings, right, Like, 752 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,760 Speaker 1: I mean we see this, Like you know, I could 753 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,800 Speaker 1: go on a whole soapbox about say, like prison systems 754 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:48,799 Speaker 1: can exacerbate or cause mental illness because of the way 755 00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:54,400 Speaker 1: that like say, captivity can harm human being mental health, right, 756 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,480 Speaker 1: so that's a big problem. And so you know, with 757 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,239 Speaker 1: animals you can see the same thing in them, but 758 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 1: with pets, you know, like it's it is really interesting 759 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: to me because I think that it does show us 760 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,239 Speaker 1: that you can have a lot of similar say like 761 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:15,239 Speaker 1: mental health issues or mental differences in pets, and they're 762 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,359 Speaker 1: not necessarily suffering in their lives in the sense of 763 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,800 Speaker 1: like you know, they're not being mistreated horribly or anything, 764 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,680 Speaker 1: but they just might be more sensitive to their environments. 765 00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,839 Speaker 1: So something like the sound of a car might really 766 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 1: make them anxious, even if it's not even if they've 767 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: never been hurt by a car or something like that. 768 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,760 Speaker 1: And so you know, I definitely think there's strong evidence 769 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 1: that animals have the same kinds of issues, in the 770 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: same kinds of like mental diversity that humans do. It's 771 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,520 Speaker 1: just a little bit tricky to study that in wild animals, 772 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,080 Speaker 1: but we can definitely see it in the animals that 773 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,400 Speaker 1: we live with. So thank you guys so much for 774 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,040 Speaker 1: all your questions. If you have a question, you can 775 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,680 Speaker 1: write to me at reach your feature Pod at gmail 776 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: dot com and I'll either try to answer on the 777 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:08,640 Speaker 1: show or through email. Next week should be a normal episode, 778 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,279 Speaker 1: so we're getting right back into it. And thank you 779 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,120 Speaker 1: guys so much for listening to the show. Hope you're 780 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: all doing all right and I will see you next week. 781 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,200 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to the Space Posics for their 782 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,720 Speaker 1: super awesome song XO. Lumina Creature features a production of iHeartRadio. 783 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,799 Speaker 1: For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit 784 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or Hey, guess what where 785 00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,360 Speaker 1: have you listened to your favorite shows? I do not 786 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,799 Speaker 1: judge you. I'm not your mother, and I can't tell 787 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:44,440 Speaker 1: you what to do except that, Hey, kids, if you're 788 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: sticking your face and some carrions, be sure that your 789 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:53,600 Speaker 1: microbiome has adapted to that first, and wash your hands. 790 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: See you next Wednesday.