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Speaker 1: Previously on Death and Deceit in Alliance?

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Speaker 2: Is there any version of the story that is he's

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Speaker 2: sticking to.

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Speaker 3: That's a tough one to answer.

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Speaker 4: My boyfriend at the time we saw him there that night.

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Speaker 5: We didn't know it was that night at the time.

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Speaker 6: If David did this and you know you didn't and

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Speaker 6: you're protecting him or whatever, then we need to know that.

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Speaker 5: What did you think?

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Speaker 4: Is he this like bumbling idiot that you know?

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Speaker 5: Seems like he's been portrayed us.

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Speaker 7: How confident are you that Joe had made mention that

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Speaker 7: his friend David wanted his wife killed before it happened.

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Speaker 8: Oh yeah, this is Death and Deceit and Alliance a

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Speaker 8: real time investigation into whether David Thorne killed Yvonne Lane.

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Speaker 1: I'm Maggie.

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Speaker 9: We pulled up to the Marian Correctional Institution, a medium

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Speaker 9: security prison with twenty five hundred prisoners. It looked a

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Speaker 9: lot like well, a prison, high walls, turrets, with guards

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Speaker 9: with rifles, barbed wire, the kind of place that's very

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Speaker 9: scary to visit.

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Speaker 10: I guess we turn in, well, yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 10: I think we go up well, I don't know. They're

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Speaker 10: not being very helpful I think it's down here.

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Speaker 3: I think so too.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think we could have a couple hours if

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Speaker 6: we wanted from one understand.

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Speaker 4: Who and there is no texting me, so I could

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Speaker 4: be sitting here for four hours.

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Speaker 3: We're not going to be in there for four hours.

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Speaker 1: Famous last words.

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Speaker 3: All right, hold on, we have a smoke burst. I'm

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna go ahead and go in.

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Speaker 9: They took everything out of their pockets, left phones, recorders, notebooks,

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Speaker 9: and they left me alone in the car in the

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Speaker 9: parking lot.

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Speaker 3: All right, let's go hello.

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Speaker 9: This was the conversation we'd been working up to four months.

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Speaker 9: We'd been circling Joe, talking to everyone around him. He

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Speaker 9: was the mystery at the center of this, the guy

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Speaker 9: who implicated himself and David. Would Joe give us something new?

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Speaker 9: I had built him up in my mind for months,

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Speaker 9: nearly a year, And now we were here.

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Speaker 1: The guys were inside meeting him, and I was stuck

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Speaker 1: waiting in the car, and I waited and waited and

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Speaker 1: made some Instagram videos.

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Speaker 2: Joe Wilkes right there, and I'm just sitting and I'm

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Speaker 2: so frustrated and excited and nervous.

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Speaker 9: And waited and sure enough, almost exactly four hours later,

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Speaker 9: the guy's emerged here. The answer to how it's going is,

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Speaker 9: I'm incredibly hungry and anxious.

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Speaker 5: You guys go in, you meet Joe.

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Speaker 4: What are your impressions of Joe?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was glad to finally meet Joe.

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Speaker 9: Joe apparently looked good. He's six' two and in great,

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Speaker 9: shape prison. Muscles he had tattoos up and down both.

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Speaker 9: Arms they said he looked.

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Speaker 3: TOUGH i, mean what did you?

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Speaker 4: Think is he this like bumbling idiot that you? Know

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Speaker 4: it seems like he's been portrayed as absolutely.

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Speaker 6: Not he's Very he's a smart. Guy he's very. Engaging

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Speaker 6: he's a good, communicator great, vocabulary a very likable.

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Speaker 7: Guy, listen extremely well like he is. Processing he's very

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Speaker 7: good in processing shared, information.

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Speaker 3: Very, Focused.

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Speaker 6: And it, was you, KNOW i Liked. JOE i liked

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Speaker 6: sitting With joe for three plus. HOURS i really found him,

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Speaker 6: engaging AND.

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Speaker 3: I just liked the.

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Speaker 11: Guy, yeah you, KNOW i think, frankly over the last

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Speaker 11: couple of, decades as you, Know david's had at least

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Speaker 11: a staunch advocate this whole, time and plenty of staunch.

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Speaker 3: Advocates.

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Speaker 6: Now it's good to you, know it was good For

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Speaker 6: joe to hear that there are people that he knew

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Speaker 6: and loved back then that's still are out here and

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Speaker 6: remember him as a kind guy that they loved then

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Speaker 6: and still loved.

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Speaker 3: Today and that really overwhelmed.

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Speaker 4: Him to know that that was the first time he

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Speaker 4: found that.

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Speaker 6: Out.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeahs he probably didn't even know.

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Speaker 9: That Back the guys told, Me joe got choked up

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Speaker 9: hearing about the people on the outside that still care about,

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Speaker 9: him Like sam And, chris even.

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Speaker 3: Me we weren't trying to make him, Ivose, no not at.

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Speaker 3: All it was very.

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Speaker 6: Natural, yeah we were passing messages along to him that

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Speaker 6: we told people we went to pass along to, it.

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Speaker 7: And while we were face to face at that, moment

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Speaker 7: he turned his body sideways because his eyes were filling

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Speaker 7: up with.

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Speaker 3: Tears and then it was touching for us because like

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Speaker 3: this this good guy who does still, care he has

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Speaker 3: a love for.

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Speaker 6: People at one, point he, Said i've been in the

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Speaker 6: system my whole life SINCE i was one year, old

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Speaker 6: either foster care or you, know jail. Prison But i've

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Speaker 6: been in the system of my entire.

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Speaker 9: Life but you're not here to know. That the guys Liked,

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Speaker 9: joe you want to know if the police got this.

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Speaker 9: Wrong you want to know what really happened In Yvonne

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Speaker 9: lane's house the night Of march thirty, first nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 1: Nine so DO i.

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Speaker 5: Do you guys believe that there was coercion from?

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Speaker 3: Police, YES.

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Speaker 6: I believe at best they did some things that they

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Speaker 6: should not have done to forward this.

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Speaker 9: Case the guy said that even Though joe was told

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Speaker 9: by police he could leave at, anytime he said he

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Speaker 9: was treated like a.

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Speaker 1: Captive he told them he was, restrained.

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Speaker 7: But if he was Handcuffed jane to a, wall that's

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Speaker 7: just not. True that's Not you're not free to.

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Speaker 9: Leave the cops slammed down, photos he, said bloody photos

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Speaker 9: of the crime, scene and made him stare at.

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Speaker 7: Them and they're slapping pictures down on the, table and

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Speaker 7: he said he was horrified looking at these. Pictures and

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Speaker 7: then they come in and introduce this statement That david had.

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Speaker 9: Written joseph's police tell him That david is basically pointing

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Speaker 9: the finger at, him even though he, wasn't and he.

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Speaker 7: Said he's so overwhelmed by the graphic nature of these.

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Speaker 7: Photos he's not reading what this document reportedly Was david

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Speaker 7: giving a.

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Speaker 4: Statement so they did they tell him what to?

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Speaker 6: Say he said that they gave them a, statement that

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Speaker 6: they they told him what.

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Speaker 3: Happened they told him what, happened and.

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Speaker 4: Essentially that was what, happened like you did this and

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Speaker 4: this and.

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Speaker 3: This, yes That david hired and to do.

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Speaker 7: It and he said it actually started in the car

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Speaker 7: ride when they picked him.

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Speaker 3: Up they're in the car with him telling, Him oh,

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Speaker 3: Yeah David thorn told.

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Speaker 1: Us, guilder we've heard this.

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Speaker 9: Before joe testified at, trial saying they fed him the.

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Speaker 9: STORY i asked about his best, Friend Sam. Peg did

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Speaker 9: he say he Told sam that he Killed?

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Speaker 5: Yvonne did he say he Told Sam?

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Speaker 3: Peg he says that he didn't tell her that.

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Speaker 6: And he does not remember ever telling her, that says

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Speaker 6: he didn't the shrade.

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Speaker 5: Knife whose knife is? That how is it?

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Speaker 3: There there's he has no. Recollection he, SAID i had

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Speaker 3: plenty of. KNIVES i didn't buy a knife a K

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Speaker 3: mark that.

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Speaker 9: Day but the cops story is That joe took them

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Speaker 9: to find the knife that they claim was the murder.

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Speaker 6: Weapon but he says specifically that it was a police

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Speaker 6: that took him to where that knife.

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Speaker 5: Was going to be So rose And.

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Speaker 4: Chris did he see, Them, Yes.

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Speaker 6: Yes he did see them the night of That wednesday.

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Speaker 6: NIGHT i saw them at the, mall bumped into, them

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Speaker 6: says the conversation was, casual that he did not give

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Speaker 6: any statements about he was there to kill, somebody and in,

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Speaker 6: fact he you, know he specifically, Said i'm not a stupid.

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Speaker 6: Guy if IF i was there to kill, Somebody i'm

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Speaker 6: not going to tell two people That i'm there to

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Speaker 6: kill somebody and then go kill.

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Speaker 2: Them did he know if On, Yes so he liked

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Speaker 2: this question of had he been?

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Speaker 5: There did he know?

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Speaker 3: Her, yes he had been to her house multiple.

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Speaker 2: TIMES a question is Did joe say he did?

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Speaker 6: This, No joe said he absolutely did not do. This

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Speaker 6: so he adamantly maintains his innocence that he did not kill.

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Speaker 5: Avonline Did david do?

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Speaker 3: This no, Indication, yeah no indication That david did. This

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Speaker 3: he believes That david didn't do.

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Speaker 6: It he told us that over and over That david

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Speaker 6: didn't have anything to do with. It he didn't have

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Speaker 6: anything to do with.

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Speaker 2: It so you found him to be, Honest, yeah or

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Speaker 2: at LEAST.

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Speaker 4: I, MEAN i, mean when he tells YOU i didn't do.

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Speaker 4: This do you believe? Him do you believe that he

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Speaker 4: believes he didn't do?

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Speaker 3: THIS i believe he believes he didn't do. This, YEAH

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Speaker 3: i absolutely believe he believes he didn't do.

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Speaker 9: IT i know this sounds. Confusing someone either committed murder or. Didn't, Right,

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Speaker 9: well we know that people can lie to. Themselves they

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Speaker 9: can block stuff, out they can convince themselves that something

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Speaker 9: is the, truth even if it objectively. Isn't and they

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Speaker 9: Said joe seemed believable when he said he was, innocent

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Speaker 9: and for whatever is, worth they didn't since.

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Speaker 1: He was lying To AND i asked WHAT i thought

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Speaker 1: was a simple, question.

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Speaker 5: Do we have a timeline for? Him what is his?

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Speaker 6: Story we don't have the timeline that we would like

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Speaker 6: to have as far as the events of that. Night

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Speaker 6: is that what we're, Asking, Well i'll let you take.

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Speaker 6: It you, know there's just there's a version of events

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Speaker 6: that he's sticking. To, Yes so to answer your, question,

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Speaker 6: yes there is a version of events that he's sticking.

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Speaker 6: To now the follow up question is what's that version of?

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Speaker 9: Events and this is Where joe's story gets even more

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Speaker 9: complicated than we ever. Imagined remember the coroner couldn't pinpoint

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Speaker 9: the exact time of. Death he gave a twelve hour

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Speaker 9: window that started at seven pm the night of the thirty.

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Speaker 9: First joe tells them That march thirty, first between three

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Speaker 9: to two five, pm he got dropped off at the

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Speaker 9: mall and walked To yvonne's to proposition her for. Sex,

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Speaker 9: now he, said in one of these, versions when he got,

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Speaker 9: there she was. Dead this, time he. Said when he got,

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Speaker 9: there he showed her a one hundred dollars bill and

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Speaker 9: told her he had a room at The Comfort. Inn

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Speaker 9: yvonne said she'd come by, later So joe. Left when

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Speaker 9: he got back to the, mall that's when he Saw

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Speaker 9: rose And. Chris and, Then joe, says the next thing he,

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Speaker 9: remembers he's in the. Shower in the shower the next,

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Speaker 9: Morning april, first he says he has no idea what

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Speaker 9: happened after he Saw rose And.

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Speaker 4: Chris do you believe him that he can't? Remember do

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Speaker 4: you think he's? Lying do you know?

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Speaker 12: WHAT i think he really doesn't. KNOW i think he

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Speaker 12: really doesn't. Remember, now has he suppressed that subcosts or?

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Speaker 12: Cautiously quite?

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Speaker 1: Possibly this was just incredible to. Me maybe after all these.

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Speaker 9: Years the reason he has told so many different stories

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Speaker 9: is because he just can't. Remember maybe he thought no

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00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,760
Speaker 9: one would believe him if he said he had amnesia

225
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:24,160
Speaker 9: for fourteen. Hours i'm more confused than. Ever we continued

226
00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,680
Speaker 9: to work through. Scenarios was there, THIS.

227
00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:35,320
Speaker 2: I have someone coming, Over i'll meet you. Later, yeah,

228
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,280
Speaker 2: yeah so that person could have killed?

229
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,600
Speaker 5: Her could Have who was that? Person?

230
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,680
Speaker 6: Well, well he even said IF i knew, THAT i

231
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,160
Speaker 6: wouldn't still be sitting here right.

232
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,480
Speaker 3: Now, yeah so.

233
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,680
Speaker 5: She's according to, him he went there.

234
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,760
Speaker 4: Proposition she, Said, OKAY i will meet you at the.

235
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:04,200
Speaker 4: HOTEL i got someone coming over. Now and he goes

236
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,160
Speaker 4: back to the hotel and SEES Rogi.

237
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,319
Speaker 5: Chrichton that's. It joe says.

238
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,720
Speaker 1: He doesn't know who the supposed visitor.

239
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,320
Speaker 2: Was but did he seem frustrated or did it seem

240
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:15,600
Speaker 2: like a convenient lapse?

241
00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,720
Speaker 12: In, No, oh he's, frustrated but it doesn't seem like

242
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,960
Speaker 12: he was he was using that to his Convenient BUT

243
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,120
Speaker 12: i really think he struggles to find what's true what's.

244
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,640
Speaker 9: Not they said they Felt joe was trying desperately to

245
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,360
Speaker 9: help them figure out what was going. On they felt

246
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,080
Speaker 9: he recognized this is the first, time not Just david

247
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,440
Speaker 9: would be getting a fair, shot and that meant maybe

248
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:38,720
Speaker 9: it was his turn.

249
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,640
Speaker 2: Too did he think it was weird the next morning

250
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:43,600
Speaker 2: that he doesn't remember.

251
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 3: Anything, well, yes he thinks it's. WEIRD i, mean and

252
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:50,440
Speaker 3: he just, said he, SAID i Don't.

253
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,040
Speaker 6: I'm not trying to get dick too far out, there

254
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,240
Speaker 6: BUT i almost wonder if somebody drugged me AND i

255
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:54,720
Speaker 6: DID i know.

256
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,800
Speaker 7: IT i felt like he really wanted to genuinely give

257
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:00,240
Speaker 7: a his.

258
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,440
Speaker 3: Best. Yeah, YEAH i think so.

259
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:07,320
Speaker 7: Too it's a lot of that was he wanted to

260
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,200
Speaker 7: impress us because he wants us to fight for.

261
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,040
Speaker 9: It so if this is true That joe was at the,

262
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,240
Speaker 9: house that's going to be really hard to get.

263
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:20,240
Speaker 1: Around and that leads us to the possibility That joe

264
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:21,680
Speaker 1: did do.

265
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:31,720
Speaker 4: It what are the chances this kind man snaps Because

266
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,560
Speaker 4: yvonne just doesn't want to have sex with.

267
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:40,280
Speaker 3: HIM i don't know. What, NO i, mean that's one

268
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:41,800
Speaker 3: of the possibilities that we.

269
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,360
Speaker 13: Have to partamions like. THAT i feel like that's definitely.

270
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:51,400
Speaker 13: Possible he goes to The trump to get this. Room

271
00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,440
Speaker 13: his impression is she's. Easy he's finally gonna get him

272
00:15:55,480 --> 00:16:01,520
Speaker 13: some she doesn't, Show she doesn't.

273
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,000
Speaker 3: Show he sits there in fucking.

274
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,720
Speaker 7: Fumes here he is in a hotel room by, himself

275
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:08,040
Speaker 7: down to his last hundred.

276
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,960
Speaker 4: Bucks he doesn't seemed like a. Fumor we've never heard

277
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:11,560
Speaker 4: of him getting.

278
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 3: That no, Ye so he either goes back down there

279
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,520
Speaker 3: to confront her about not showing, up.

280
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,800
Speaker 12: Hilts, her or goes back down there to confront her

281
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,120
Speaker 12: about not showing up and finds her dead bottom.

282
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,480
Speaker 3: Or both could be out in thee and wakes up

283
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:34,720
Speaker 3: in the.

284
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,000
Speaker 1: Shower the blackout is so.

285
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 9: Confusing maybe he really did walk in on her dead

286
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:42,040
Speaker 9: and blacked it.

287
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,360
Speaker 3: Out that's just gone in his bod.

288
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,680
Speaker 7: And he's either intensely pocketed and never let it, out

289
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:55,120
Speaker 7: or subconsciously it is just so. Buried he's not going

290
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,080
Speaker 7: to go. There he's not going to retreat. It it's

291
00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,600
Speaker 7: no desire. To SO i think maybe in his mind he's.

292
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,480
Speaker 7: Afraid maybe he has to be wondering DID i kill?

293
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,440
Speaker 9: Him and while we were, processing there was something strange

294
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,399
Speaker 9: that stuck out To john And danny in the four

295
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,960
Speaker 9: hours they were With joe the, timeline he said he

296
00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,879
Speaker 9: was At elon's between three and, Five but we know

297
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,879
Speaker 9: for a Fact joe was at The enox at five

298
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 9: pm With david and The lion The. Enochs those are

299
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,560
Speaker 9: the parents Of joe's friend who'd taken him in for

300
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,760
Speaker 9: a short, time And Brent enoch testified that he Took

301
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,520
Speaker 9: joe to do a job and dropped him off at

302
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:45,880
Speaker 9: the mall at eight p. M this was testified to at. Trial, Joe,

303
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,879
Speaker 9: david and The enochs all agreed at trial that's where

304
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:56,639
Speaker 9: everyone was at five. Pm so why Is joe making

305
00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:01,439
Speaker 9: something up that is so obviously not corroborated?

306
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 5: Either do we.

307
00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,080
Speaker 4: Have next steps right?

308
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:13,240
Speaker 5: Now how are you?

309
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:14,199
Speaker 4: Feeling what are you?

310
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:21,800
Speaker 3: Thinking, well that's That's it's a. LOT i mean these

311
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,840
Speaker 3: if it was if it was, easy.

312
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 12: We would all fly in with our camera crew and

313
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,520
Speaker 12: do a three day investigation and talk to four. People

314
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,480
Speaker 12: we talked to eight people today And i'll work till

315
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,560
Speaker 12: midnight or one o'clock and then we have to decompress

316
00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,600
Speaker 12: and revisit all the bits of information and say how

317
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:45,840
Speaker 12: does this puzzle fit? Together and it's a lot because

318
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:53,159
Speaker 12: the memories you, Know, joe let us know he, Ah

319
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 12: and that's the challenge on how we proceed is because

320
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,080
Speaker 12: there are things That joe just does not.

321
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,960
Speaker 3: Remember is bad as he wants.

322
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:06,200
Speaker 12: To he goes to bed every night with the full

323
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:11,360
Speaker 12: recognition That Yvonne lane is her death is the reason

324
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,879
Speaker 12: that he's sleeping in that. Bomb and in the, morning

325
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 12: each morning when he wakes, up he has still full

326
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 12: recognition That Ivon, lane her murder is the reason he's

327
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:23,800
Speaker 12: waking up in The.

328
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,720
Speaker 6: Yeah even if he did not do it, right her

329
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 6: death is what led to him being in.

330
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:36,760
Speaker 12: There so, dreams the, visions the, hopes the reliving old,

331
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:43,120
Speaker 12: memories reminiscing whatever it may, be the autopsy, photos the,

332
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 12: trial the civil, trial the reporters and, investigators the advocates For,

333
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,840
Speaker 12: david everything that he's. Experienced it's very hard for him

334
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,400
Speaker 12: to remember what's real and what's.

335
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,920
Speaker 4: NOT i can't imagine yeah That.

336
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 9: So maybe he's just making up the blackout so he

337
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,399
Speaker 9: doesn't have to answer any questions about what happened between

338
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 9: him And. David maybe he's banking ON dna to point

339
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,200
Speaker 9: to someone, else and if it, Doesn't joe can always, say,

340
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 9: WELL i told.

341
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 1: YOU i was there that night and was just. Confused

342
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,159
Speaker 1: maybe they did do it.

343
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 9: Together after all fourteen hour amnesia is quite. Convenient and

344
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,040
Speaker 9: Then john finally says.

345
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 6: IT i, mean If i'm sitting here right, NOW i

346
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 6: think That joe Had.

347
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,359
Speaker 12: YEAH i think it's tough just to get the words,

348
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 12: out isn't it just to say what we know to be,

349
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:43,919
Speaker 12: true what we?

350
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,159
Speaker 7: Believe is very plas about, That, yeah it's, true what

351
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:48,760
Speaker 7: the fuck is?

352
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 9: True probably after processing in the, Car john admits he

353
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,280
Speaker 9: Believes joe was, involved even though the writing is on the.

354
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,320
Speaker 1: WALL i just wasn't ready to admit.

355
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 9: IT i couldn't get past that there could have been

356
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 9: someone else, there that someone else could have killed.

357
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,199
Speaker 7: Her she definitely had enough traffic at that. Place this

358
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 7: is to have been a house where that kind of

359
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 7: event may have. Happened that's, Right but god dang fatality of,

360
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 7: yes Right, Sam sam's, statement christ And rose's Statement chris

361
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,920
Speaker 7: IS i Mean joe turn left left?

362
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,439
Speaker 6: LEFT i, mean we we all agree that this is

363
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 6: a violent, scene.

364
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 5: Like even in a.

365
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 4: BLACKOUT i don't know If joe had that.

366
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:40,880
Speaker 5: RAGE i have no.

367
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 3: IDEA i, mean that's WHAT i don't.

368
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 2: Know AND i would love an expert to tell me

369
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 2: if they've ever seen. That, yeah like rage like that

370
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,159
Speaker 2: come out in a.

371
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 4: Blackout, yeah good.

372
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,880
Speaker 3: BOY i, mean what's the old.

373
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,399
Speaker 6: SAYING i, mean this isn't clinical, blackout But i'm seeing.

374
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 6: Red you're so damn mad that you can't even you

375
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:06,919
Speaker 6: just can see. Red you know you.

376
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: Can't and so let's Say joe was.

377
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 4: Involved do you believe him when he Says david's not?

378
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 3: Involved that's. Tough that's, tough you.

379
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 6: KNOW i, mean there's there's, listen there's a lot of

380
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:30,880
Speaker 6: scenarios that are possible right. Now, YES i believe, them

381
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 6: but there's still some things that some questions that need

382
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 6: to be.

383
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 3: Answered you brought up, earlier.

384
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 6: You, KNOW i go back to and that's just a

385
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 6: scenario that we have to consider at this, point OR i.

386
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 6: Do AND i still looking back At, sam found her

387
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 6: to be pretty damn credible last.

388
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 9: Night it was just all so much to take in

389
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 9: going into this investigation THINKING i would find one thing

390
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 9: and having the facts start to lay out something. Different

391
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 9: If joe was, involved it really raises the question Was david.

392
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 9: Too i've spent two years trying to figure that, out

393
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 9: expecting the answers to be, No David thorne was, innocent

394
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 9: but laying out the facts we've, gathered. Reconciling what they

395
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 9: all point to overwhelmed.

396
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 2: ME i don't, KNOW i feel LIKE i got like,

397
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: UP i feel LIKE i that.

398
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 5: EMOTIONAL i don't, Know i'd feel really.

399
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 3: Confused this is.

400
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 7: An emotional word dealing with people's, lives really.

401
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 3: CONFUSED i don't WANT i have no. Regrets you guys

402
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 3: have spent so much. Time this has been a great

403
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 3: journey for, us and it's not.

404
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 12: Over okay That i'm not even there and the town

405
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 12: is still in the trainer's.

406
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 3: Bench we're not throwing it. In, yeah we have work to.

407
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 6: Do it is, deflating but that's how every single fucking

408
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 6: one of these cases. GOES i, mean there are deflating.

409
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 6: Days there, are you, know that's just the reality of.

410
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 5: It i'm just, like what If david did?

411
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 3: This it's a fair, Question.

412
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 2: MAGGIE i don't think he, did but Now i'm really,

413
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 2: like what if he fucking?

414
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 5: Did AND i just invested all.

415
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 3: Of this.

416
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 5: Hell bent on his Innocence.

417
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 9: And i'm just going to ADD i can now see

418
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 9: how investigators and law enforcement get tunnel, vision make a,

419
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 9: judgment and look for ways to to prove. IT i

420
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 9: had to try so hard not to do that. Here

421
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 9: even WHEN i saw the writing on the, wall my

422
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 9: heart was still telling me something.

423
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 5: ELSE i think IT'S i THINK i just felt so

424
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 5: strongly for a while and NOW i just don't know

425
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 5: and start hitting. Me AND i never have, emotions so

426
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 5: that's a.

427
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 3: LOT i. KNOW i just think about.

428
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 5: SEE i don't want to have to say to her

429
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 5: THE i.

430
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 3: KNOW i, Know maggie that the whole thought of all

431
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 3: that makes me really sad.

432
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 6: Too everybody that we have talked, to everything that we have,

433
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 6: learned everything that has every direction that we've been pointed,

434
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 6: in for the most, part has shown this is a

435
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 6: worthy case to.

436
00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 3: Investigate, Definitely so it say worthy case to.

437
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 6: Investigate SO i have no, regrets but worthy cases sometimes.

438
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 3: Don't pan out to be an innocence.

439
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 14: Case, yeah, yeah we're not even.

440
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 15: There we're not. There, look we're, fighters all of, us

441
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 15: win or, lose right or. Wrong we're fighting through this

442
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 15: to get to the, answers.

443
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: Answers THAT i just wasn't ready to deal.

444
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 14: With but there are some real issues with, this there,

445
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 14: are Right i'm now AM i trying to convince myself

446
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 14: he didn't do this BECAUSE i don't want to deal

447
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 14: with the fact THAT i just fucking threw an entire

448
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 14: department under the bus for fucking up an investigation that

449
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 14: maybe they.

450
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 6: Didn't well WHAT i Told, Danny, well while you were

451
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 6: on the, PHONE i, said listen is not mutually.

452
00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 3: EXCLUSIVE i mean sometimes the bubbling idiots get it right by. Accident,

453
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 3: well a broken clock is right twice a.

454
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 5: Day so, Yeah i'm just trying to reckon with that right.

455
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,239
Speaker 3: NOW i, Know, MAGGIE i, know believe. ME i.

456
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 16: Know if it turns out worst case, scenario we were

457
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 16: wrong And david did have a role in, This and,

458
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 16: anyway we at least can go to bed and say

459
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 16: we gave it everything we, had more than any other

460
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 16: motherfuckers in THEIR tv shows or their reporting anyone. Else,

461
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 16: yeah there was enough enough damage done in this investigation

462
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 16: to warrant us being, here.

463
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 3: The commitment we all made to.

464
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 1: This, yeah, yeah you just feel a little.

465
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 3: Stupid, no, no, no, no, No.

466
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 7: Why would you feel. Stupid you have something that was

467
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 7: brought into our life for a. Reason And i'm not

468
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 7: trying to be zig zigglar. Here i'm just saying we're

469
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 7: here for a. REASON i haven't given up On david Or.

470
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 7: Joe we have to keep trudging. On body blows coming every, investigation,

471
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 7: right especially twenty two year old murder.

472
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 17: Investigations, yeah, yeah this is you, know this is A

473
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 17: this is a knockdown with a three count for, sure

474
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 17: got seven to?

475
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: Go where do we?

476
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 5: GO i, mean what are we what are we even?

477
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 5: Doing it's four. O'clock what are we? Doing for the first?

478
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 9: Time we decided to pack it in for the. Day

479
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 9: we needed to take a, break hit the hotel bar

480
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 9: and clear our. Heads But i'm not much of a

481
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 9: head clearer in a situation like. This my brain was,

482
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 9: swirling and it turns out neither are the. Guys so

483
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 9: we sat at the, bar pouring through, documents trying, frantically

484
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 9: furiously to find, something something we missed at LEAST i.

485
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 9: WAS i THINK i wanted something that would settle, me

486
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 9: make me comfortable with all the Time i'd invested In

487
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 9: David thorne and his claim of. INNOCENCE i don't know

488
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 9: what the comfort would. Be something solidly saying he's, guilty

489
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 9: or something solidly saying he's.

490
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: INNOCENT i don't.

491
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 9: Know but we did find, something something that did give

492
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 9: me the missing PIECE i was looking. For we came

493
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 9: across a police report buried in the case file one

494
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 9: that would change. Everything it Was sue who had given

495
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 9: me the case, files and in the file was a

496
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 9: folder of transcripts of audio.

497
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: Interviews every TIME i.

498
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 9: Listened to an audio, File sue had a transcript she

499
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 9: made to read along with. It, NOW i had gotten

500
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 9: the audio files myself from the DA's, office SO i

501
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 9: knew whatever they had given to the PUBLIC i also.

502
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 9: Had BUT i Had i'd never seen a transcript for

503
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 9: this particular, interview SO i checked my audio, folder and sure,

504
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 9: enough there was an interview with a woman Named, angie

505
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 9: the woman in the police. Report but WHEN i checked

506
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 9: the transcripts, again there wasn't. One maybe an oversight On sue's.

507
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 9: Behalf but WHEN i decided to listen to the interview

508
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 9: With angie and found out who she was and what

509
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 9: she had.

510
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: To, say this didn't seem.

511
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 9: Like an accidental oversight to Omit angie's transcript from the.

512
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 9: Files it seemed like this was an audio RECORDING i

513
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 9: wasn't meant to know. About angie Was david's ex, girlfriend

514
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 9: and she told police they dated for about five years

515
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 9: four years, ago so that would be around nineteen ninety.

516
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:55,719
Speaker 9: Five right Before david Met. Yvonne and this is tape

517
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 9: from a police interview With. ANGIE i had never heard.

518
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 18: Before can you just draw up to me on the

519
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 18: take here how he treated you in so many instances

520
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 18: that happened while you were dating, morning very, aggressive very.

521
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: Since coming up on deaf And deceit In, alliance you,

522
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: KNOW i.

523
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,959
Speaker 3: Think there's a lot of questions that have never been

524
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 3: asked of. Him who was he? Really And i'm NOT

525
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 3: i don't want him to try to bullshit.

526
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 7: Us you, know when you leave an interview and you

527
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 7: feel like you've shared more information than the person who's

528
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 7: fighting for their, life.

529
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 3: There's a reason behind. That AND i said a point

530
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 3: blank did that? Happen? No and then he changed the

531
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 3: subject pretty. Quickly, man then it started turning for. It that's,

532
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 3: fine you, know we know memories on tape. Recorders just

533
00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 3: tell us what you do.

534
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 7: Remember and he left out he was not going to

535
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 7: bring up the fact that he was With joe at The.

536
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 3: Hemings, yeah, hello is this Mister, Toole Charlie? TOOLE i

537
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 3: don't know who's.

538
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 9: This death And deceit In alliance is produced and reported

539
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 9: by Me Maggie freeling with editorial consulting From Amber. Hunt

540
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 9: Aaron case is our legal. Researcher our executive producer Is Steve.

541
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 9: Fishman our engineer and production coordinator Is Austin. Smith Eric

542
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 9: axelrod is our assistant.

543
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: Producer