Speaker 1: I'm Ray Fines, and I'm having an affair with the
Speaker 1: River Cafe.
Speaker 2: I can honestly not remember where or when I met
Speaker 2: Ray Fines. It is often said that the test of
Speaker 2: a true friendship is that after being a part for
Speaker 2: a long time, you're able to pick up just where
Speaker 2: you left off. Rafe and I recorded this podcast a
Speaker 2: while ago, and since then we've been apart too much
Speaker 2: for my liking. He in Rome filming Conclave in New
Speaker 2: York and David Hare's straight lined crazy in Greece The Return,
Speaker 2: and in his beloved Suffolk creating a new home with
Speaker 2: a beautiful kitchen. Is that okay?
Speaker 3: So that's a beautiful kitchen.
Speaker 2: It's a good kitchen, Okay, the beautiful kitchen. But right
Speaker 2: now we are on Ruthie's table four to talk about
Speaker 2: the work he's doing, what he's been cooking, and then
Speaker 2: we will have dinner at the River Cafe, and like
Speaker 2: the loving close friends, we are pick up just where
Speaker 2: we left off.
Speaker 1: Chocolate Nemesis ten eggs, five hundred seventy five grams of
Speaker 1: caster sugar, six hundred seventy five grams of best quality
Speaker 1: dark chocolate, four hundred fifty grams of unsalted butter.
Speaker 3: Softened.
Speaker 1: Preheat the oven to a hundred thirty degrees centigrade. Whisk
Speaker 1: the eggs with a third of the sugar with an
Speaker 1: electric mixer until the volume quadruples. This will take at
Speaker 1: least ten minutes. Meanwhile, melt the chocolate and butter together
Speaker 1: in a heat proof bowl set over a pan of
Speaker 1: barely simmering water. Remove from the heat. Heat the remaining
Speaker 1: sugar with two hundred fifty milli liters of water in
Speaker 1: a small saucepan until the sugar has dissolved to a syrup,
Speaker 1: stirring occasionally. Gently pour into the melted chocolate, stirring slowly.
Speaker 3: Add the warm.
Speaker 1: Chocolate and syrup mixture to the eggs, Increase the speed,
Speaker 1: and continue beating until completely combined. The mixture will lose volume.
Speaker 1: Pour into the prepared cake tin and put into a
Speaker 1: deep baking tray on top of a tea towel. To
Speaker 1: prevent the cake tin from moving, fill the baking tray
Speaker 1: with hot water so that it comes at least two
Speaker 1: thirds up the sides of the cake tin. Bake foot
Speaker 1: one and a half to two hours until set. Test
Speaker 1: by placing the flat of your hand gently on the
Speaker 1: surface of the cake.
Speaker 2: Well, I was going to ask you why you chose Nemesis,
Speaker 2: but when you said that you were having an affair
Speaker 2: with a restaurant, it all made sense because I was
Speaker 2: thinking if you seafood as a seduction, you know, and
Speaker 2: whether we think that if you were having an affair
Speaker 2: with a restaurant, you were having with the woman with
Speaker 2: happy part of the seduction.
Speaker 1: Well, there's always a sensual connection with food. Food is sensuality.
Speaker 1: And as I've grown older, or the last few years especially,
Speaker 1: I have found myself cooking more and more and loving
Speaker 1: cooking and loving the preparation, that connection to food and
Speaker 1: cooking has grown.
Speaker 2: Executive highest. Cos you're getting shore to come and just
Speaker 2: talk about the Nemesis just for a minute, will you
Speaker 2: talk about in our course? Because you have made it
Speaker 2: for how many years? Twenty?
Speaker 4: I was trying to work out while you were reading
Speaker 4: the recipe how many Nemesis we might have sold?
Speaker 2: Well, how many we sell it year? I think we
Speaker 2: do ten thousand a year, so times thirty would be
Speaker 2: is that three hundred thousand or.
Speaker 4: Say half a million?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Maybe, But you do make it sound quite relaxing when
Speaker 4: you're reading it. But when you're making but also the
Speaker 4: chocolate cake that eludes most people. It's probably one of
Speaker 4: the most difficult chocolate cakes to get perfect.
Speaker 3: Why is that? Do you think what's what's the secret?
Speaker 4: It used to be a real secret, didn't it? Ruthly
Speaker 4: that no one could ever make it? And then when
Speaker 4: we did the River Cafe thirty book, we gave a
Speaker 4: more real recipe of how to do it.
Speaker 1: Is it deliberate withholding an information?
Speaker 2: I say, people say there are quite a few recipes
Speaker 2: in the Blue Book that people say it just doesn't work,
Speaker 2: And I say, give me break, give us our first
Speaker 2: cookbook that you but it is a hard one to make.
Speaker 2: And I think the tin was very big, and Julian
Speaker 2: Barnes famously wrote a piece about the fact that there
Speaker 2: was a time in the nineties when you went to
Speaker 2: anybody's home for dinner and you'd see this kind of
Speaker 2: splodge of chocolate. It was just this splutge of chocolate.
Speaker 2: And that was that was the attempt to make the nemesis.
Speaker 2: But then when we actually I think it easy, has
Speaker 2: an easy nemesis, doesn't it too?
Speaker 4: There's one tried and tested technique to reduce percentage of failure,
Speaker 4: I'd say, which is to make sure that you never
Speaker 4: take it out of the tin until it's totally cold.
Speaker 4: And if it's a little tiny bit warm like lukewarm, splodge, yeah,
Speaker 4: you have to pipe.
Speaker 2: That's good. That's good.
Speaker 4: That's how a probably topped tip.
Speaker 3: And actually, because the.
Speaker 1: Chocolate itself has to cool, and is it the chocolate
Speaker 1: in the bottom, so I think cooling.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And if you really have made a mistake,
Speaker 4: you probably could just put it in the fridge and
Speaker 4: it would set.
Speaker 2: But that's the sort of off the record.
Speaker 4: Don't try that away.
Speaker 2: But the other thing about the Nemesis is that it
Speaker 2: has no flowers. Yeah, and really it is like making
Speaker 2: a s fle because you beat the eggs so much,
Speaker 2: don't you. That's a workout.
Speaker 4: Because it has no flour, it appeals to the gluten
Speaker 4: free and so therefore it's almost a health food in itself,
Speaker 4: a healthy cake.
Speaker 2: Except for the sugar and the eggs.
Speaker 4: And ask we have worked out the calorific value of
Speaker 4: one slice, but we can't divulge that because I would
Speaker 4: never sell another slice.
Speaker 2: Was it a thousand calories?
Speaker 4: It's quite a lot. It was like a daily half
Speaker 4: a day's just have a slither. Yeah, it is so good.
Speaker 4: And and then obviously the quality of the chocolate.
Speaker 3: Chocolate, can you reveal the brand or the chocolate.
Speaker 4: We shop around for chocolate, we would probably buy chocolate
Speaker 4: that's seasonal, and going around the world with the season
Speaker 4: of chocolate making, we've tried different chocolates and different some
Speaker 4: of them.
Speaker 2: We had that Nemesis tasting to remember, it was really hard.
Speaker 2: There were six Nemess cakes made with six different types
Speaker 2: of chocolate, and we were supposed to sort of taste
Speaker 2: each one and then and and it wasn't even that
Speaker 2: you had to be like pretend you were really, really
Speaker 2: really good chef and say, oh, I can really tell
Speaker 2: the difference between this chocolate and that, you know, which
Speaker 2: we all were. But we could tell some differences. You
Speaker 2: could taste it was a bit chalky, or it was
Speaker 2: a bit well, some of them were too perfumed.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, yeah, we used to use a chocolate
Speaker 4: that we've changed. We changed people's taste change, I think,
Speaker 4: and people like maybe as people know more about chocolate,
Speaker 4: I think they might not like such sweet chocolates as
Speaker 4: maybe twenty years ago.
Speaker 3: I think that's what's happening. I think I sensed that
Speaker 3: just because what's on.
Speaker 1: Offer on the chocolate shops is a lot of higher
Speaker 1: percentage chocolate. But seventy five eighty five.
Speaker 2: Do you think that we've had chefs that we just
Speaker 2: couldn't teach to make a nemesis?
Speaker 3: You?
Speaker 2: Do you think everybody can make one?
Speaker 4: I think I think it's part of your sort of
Speaker 4: badges of honor that you need to be able to
Speaker 4: make a nemesis. It's one of those things that I
Speaker 4: genuinely think eludes the average person, Like have you ever
Speaker 4: made one?
Speaker 3: No, I've made the chocolate has on that cake which
Speaker 3: is in.
Speaker 4: That Yeah, because it has only got four ingredients, you
Speaker 4: really need to make sure that those ingredients are the
Speaker 4: best quality.
Speaker 3: Chocolate, butter, sugar, eggs.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I mean we use buffalo milk butter, which
Speaker 4: is also like hi fat. Yeah, and it's white butter
Speaker 4: and really neutral and clean, these fine chocolate sugar and
Speaker 4: then really beautiful eggs as well.
Speaker 2: That's it. Yeah.
Speaker 3: People listening to you, they're going to rush off and
Speaker 3: do it.
Speaker 1: Make it challenge? The challenge one on YouTube?
Speaker 2: Didn't you did you make?
Speaker 3: I did?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Incentive is the challenge.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but people do phone the restaurant if they're having
Speaker 4: trouble with it. I'm not encouraging people to do so, but.
Speaker 2: Mobile eight one hundred thousand listeners. I remember people calling
Speaker 2: up and saying we ruined their dinner party. I have
Speaker 2: a few of those, but not even Actually no, with Nemesis,
Speaker 2: it was a woman called me up and she made
Speaker 2: this lemon sorbet lemon the lemon ice cream as she said,
Speaker 2: you know, it didn't work, and he ruined my dinner party.
Speaker 2: And I said, well, I just gave the chef the
Speaker 2: recipe and he just made one and it's perfectly fine,
Speaker 2: So take that.
Speaker 4: The other thing is you've got to make sure you
Speaker 4: volumeize the egg. Yeah, like probably five times a volume,
Speaker 4: and then once you've mixed the chocolate into the egg mixture.
Speaker 4: But the other thing we do is we hit the
Speaker 4: tin really hard. Is a good way to bash out
Speaker 4: the air. Otherwise then you just drop it or hit
Speaker 4: it really hard on the work surface, and then all
Speaker 4: those air bubbles that you've got in there from just
Speaker 4: whipping it kind of drop out, and it gives it
Speaker 4: that intense, that texture that's quite unique. And that's maybe
Speaker 4: why people can't make it, and if it when you
Speaker 4: cook it, if it gets a crunchy topping wrong, it
Speaker 4: has to have like a just set top. I mean,
Speaker 4: the finer details.
Speaker 2: We could have put this in the book never occurred
Speaker 2: to it. But they're also I think the cloth and
Speaker 2: the tin is a big difference. I don't think we
Speaker 2: had that in the first book. Is putting the cloth
Speaker 2: and the you know when you put the band Marie
Speaker 2: of the water in the big tin and then you
Speaker 2: put that often, I think that's a good thing to do. Okay,
Speaker 2: all right, we'll come back. We're going to have dinner tonight,
Speaker 2: so we'll come back and have a place of memesis
Speaker 2: for dessert. The skin it was good. Watch it. We
Speaker 2: could do a phone.
Speaker 5: Yeah, call us with your problem.
Speaker 2: When you were growing up, What was it like cooking
Speaker 2: and eating in the Fines family? What was that like?
Speaker 1: Sometimes quite stressful because there was eight of us, six
Speaker 1: children and two parents, and then then we had it
Speaker 1: for many years. We also had a foster brother. Mixed
Speaker 1: it would have been nine people, but generally it was
Speaker 1: eight of us. But I have a very as you
Speaker 1: asked me that, Ruthie, you have a very strong memory
Speaker 1: of family meals, specially Sunday or Saturday, and I have
Speaker 1: memories two of my parents sometimes giving a small dinner party,
Speaker 1: very simple, often something like spaghetti bolonnaise. And then I
Speaker 1: remember we all were tantalized when these grown ups came.
Speaker 1: So this when I'd be about eight or nine and
Speaker 1: these friends came, and you get the whole sense of
Speaker 1: this adult world where people have come, and that we
Speaker 1: might have put on some ear ring or lipstick and
Speaker 1: the men to brush the hair and thrown a tie
Speaker 1: on or something or not, or you know, and I
Speaker 1: remember it being tantalized by the adult world. And we
Speaker 1: had this game the eldest four of us called spy
Speaker 1: on the grown ups, which we were actually technically had
Speaker 1: gone to bed, but we used to love tiptoeing down
Speaker 1: the stairs, opening the door and sort of listening, and
Speaker 1: we'd hear a snippet of conversation which you probably misheard
Speaker 1: me run up the stairs and report a bit of
Speaker 1: conversation that we had heard.
Speaker 2: I think I did the same. I remember sitting on
Speaker 2: the stairs, and you know, we all sometimes so we
Speaker 2: now sort of complain about dinner parties, are going to
Speaker 2: those kind of dinner parties are going to a dinner party.
Speaker 2: But for a child it is so it's so intriguing,
Speaker 2: isn't it The adult as you say, the adult world
Speaker 2: of manners and food and a different kind. But would
Speaker 2: your mother cook very differently? Do you think for the
Speaker 2: dinner parties she would cook for nine eight children?
Speaker 3: Was very well.
Speaker 1: There was a time when we were finding out, yes
Speaker 1: she would, but there was a time when that was
Speaker 1: she I think she developed a reluctance just because I
Speaker 1: think she felt pressure to be a good cook, and
Speaker 1: she thought that thing about you know, I'm going to disappoint.
Speaker 1: So I think it was. And for a time we
Speaker 1: had my parents are very pushed financially. We were in
Speaker 1: Ireland in the early nineteen seventies and there was a
Speaker 1: great There was a whole summer where the lunch was
Speaker 1: only ever mashed potatoes and nor packet soup.
Speaker 2: Oh, nor packet soup.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And we all got very good at making
Speaker 1: nor packet soup mashed potatoes. And in the evening maybe
Speaker 1: it would be a macaroni cheese or shepherd's pie or something.
Speaker 2: But you felt satisfied by you never felt, never felt But.
Speaker 1: My parents love food, but when you talk about loving food,
Speaker 1: people often think you're an indulge. But I think it
Speaker 1: needn't be the case. You can just it just can
Speaker 1: be a really good piece of cheese and a cracker
Speaker 1: and fresh tomato, and that can be pleasurable.
Speaker 2: People ask me why did I learn to cook or
Speaker 2: why did I become so interested in cooking? And I
Speaker 2: think that at a certain point in your life, if
Speaker 2: you like to eat and you can't really afford eating,
Speaker 2: you know you want to eat well, so you have
Speaker 2: to kind of cook well. And I think that is
Speaker 2: something that I.
Speaker 1: Think that's key if you love eating, if you love.
Speaker 3: It, yeah, you do you want to cook.
Speaker 2: But again sort of going from the nemesis that you
Speaker 2: chose the nemesis because I also you and I have
Speaker 2: such a close relationship and connection to Italy. I've had
Speaker 2: phone calls from you from the market saying with you,
Speaker 2: I've just seen the most incredible leaves of chikor or
Speaker 2: I've seen mushroom as your role, how am I going
Speaker 2: to cook this fungi or whatever was it you saw?
Speaker 2: Because you do go to you have his house in
Speaker 2: Umbria and not far from mine, and I've had calls
Speaker 2: from you from the market. I've had calls from you
Speaker 2: while you're cooking, and I've had calls from you after
Speaker 2: you've cooked something and said, let me tell you that
Speaker 2: what I just cooked last night with it because it
Speaker 2: was really good and you might learn something if I
Speaker 2: tell you this. What was it like in Umbria, Because
Speaker 2: you've been to me in Tuscany, but I haven't been
Speaker 2: to your house, So just what's it like food wise?
Speaker 1: Is that you have a big kitchen, simple simple kitchen,
Speaker 1: simple stove, but fine, you know, four hobbs in an oven,
Speaker 1: but the big table. And actually I have a memory
Speaker 1: of going to when you take gone to the house
Speaker 1: that you take in Italy, you have lots of vegion,
Speaker 1: fruits and stuff ripening, already prepared, waiting to be consumed.
Speaker 1: And I definitely, I definitely echo that with a table
Speaker 1: with bowls full of fruit. And if it's not if
Speaker 1: it's very hot, I can't keep bed out, but tomatoes
Speaker 1: I will keep out. But if only gets very hot,
Speaker 1: the fridge is a resource. But no, there's a market
Speaker 1: in the local town, and I go to the market.
Speaker 1: There is the Italian co op. I have to say,
Speaker 1: is great, great, well here and there are others. There
Speaker 1: was a small butchers which I would go to.
Speaker 3: So I love.
Speaker 2: Is there a restaurant that you go.
Speaker 1: To there is, yes, but it's just outside non Nagelsa.
Speaker 3: It's a trat.
Speaker 1: Which is which is a great, simple, really good Umbrian cooking.
Speaker 2: I think I'm cooking. It's about Italy. I would say
Speaker 2: that food varies from region to region, but also from
Speaker 2: city to city and also from town to town. So
Speaker 2: I think that even though you're quite close to me,
Speaker 2: they're probably more. Do you have a lot of lentils
Speaker 2: there and beans?
Speaker 3: Yeah, lentile soup yeah, chick piece soup yea.
Speaker 2: And what about when you're you're are you alone there?
Speaker 2: Do you cook? Do cook in a different way when
Speaker 2: you're solitary?
Speaker 1: Well, I'm usually when I'm there, mostly there on my
Speaker 1: own and I have friends who come visit, and I cook,
Speaker 1: but I do more. I'm more engaged with shopping and
Speaker 1: cooking when I'm minutely than I am.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 1: Because because I got the time to go out and
Speaker 1: properly select food and think about what I'm going to eat.
Speaker 1: And I love going to the market. It's great for
Speaker 1: people watching and it tells you a.
Speaker 2: Lot about the culture, doesn't It tells you about the
Speaker 2: people who are selling the food there, what they're eating,
Speaker 2: what the you know, the way they shop the market
Speaker 2: is a kind.
Speaker 1: Of enthusiasm of the people selling the food and they
Speaker 1: the lady saying the cheese will cut your piece of cheese, yea,
Speaker 1: the kind of and also you feel their delight with
Speaker 1: their food culture. They're they're kind of excitement about what
Speaker 1: they're selling.
Speaker 2: It is very very regional. And I think also when
Speaker 2: you come, when we're tasking together, we just sit there,
Speaker 2: don't we for hours? You know, talking and eating and
Speaker 2: eating some more, and it's all kind of one big
Speaker 2: table in one conversation. The River Cafe is excited to
Speaker 2: announce the return of our Italian Christmas gift boxes, our
Speaker 2: alternative to the traditional hamper. They bring you all of
Speaker 2: our favorites from the River Cafe kitchen, the vineyards and
Speaker 2: the designers from all over Italy. They're available to pre
Speaker 2: order now on shop the River Cafe dot co dot uk.
Speaker 2: Tell me about eating and acting, what's the deal that
Speaker 2: do you eat?
Speaker 3: That's a good question.
Speaker 1: I think you need a bit of food for energy,
Speaker 1: so to have starved yourself or not have eaten within
Speaker 1: three hours before a performance. You can, I think your
Speaker 1: sugar level would drop. I mean, but I know I
Speaker 1: can't eat a big meal.
Speaker 3: What do you eat not?
Speaker 2: What about on a film set when we touched breakfast, breakfast?
Speaker 3: Breakfast?
Speaker 1: Really they have now found ways to shorten the day
Speaker 1: and they have what I called a running lunch. A
Speaker 1: lot of films you can maybe grab twenty minutes to
Speaker 1: have a sandwich, and they'll have a running lunch from
Speaker 1: twelve to two. Maybe if they do stop, it's half
Speaker 1: an hour only.
Speaker 2: And so, as I said you were in Rome.
Speaker 3: I was filming Aroom twice this year.
Speaker 1: I was filming this conclave which you mentioned about a
Speaker 1: film recreating the conclave when the cardinals, when the pope
Speaker 1: has died and all the cardinals get into the Sistine
Speaker 1: Chapel and they are sequestered away from the world. They
Speaker 1: have no contact with the outside world at all while
Speaker 1: they vote for the new pope, and they have to
Speaker 1: keep voting until the required majority is achieved.
Speaker 2: Somebody put them to can I can one of them
Speaker 2: say I want to be pope and campaigned?
Speaker 1: There's a bit of that in it. There is oh yes, no,
Speaker 1: that's a bit. It's it's based on a great book
Speaker 1: by Robert Harris and it was written maybe nine years ago.
Speaker 1: And it's been directed by Edward Berger, who directed All
Speaker 1: Quite on the Western Front, which got a lot of
Speaker 1: acclaim the last season.
Speaker 3: He was wonderful director, very very very good, very.
Speaker 1: Lovely man, very detailed and very and the best sense
Speaker 1: attentive to the actors and the nuances that he wants
Speaker 1: them to bring out. I love working with him and
Speaker 1: wonderful Stanley Tucci. He loves playing my two We're two,
Speaker 1: we're two cardinals who are friends and we hit we
Speaker 1: hit a few bumpy patches in our friendship.
Speaker 3: In the film, do.
Speaker 2: You both want to put yourselves up from being pope?
Speaker 1: In different ways? He's a bit more. We're both reluctant
Speaker 1: to admit it that we do. And he's brilliant in
Speaker 1: the film.
Speaker 2: I have to say, did the Vatican were they involved?
Speaker 3: They they just rise above it. They just know they're
Speaker 3: not really involved. But no, they just they.
Speaker 2: And they let you film in the Vatican.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no, There is a whole The
Speaker 1: key voting scenes are in the Sistine Chapel in real life,
Speaker 1: and there exists Assistine Chapel set made I believe for
Speaker 1: the miniseries The Young Pope, which I think Julie was
Speaker 1: long Jude. So that set of the Sistine Chapel was
Speaker 1: was mothballed, and then our production brought it out, cleaned
Speaker 1: it out, repainted it. And it's the whole of the
Speaker 1: first twenty feet of the Sistine Chapel with the Day
Speaker 1: of Judgment at one end as a copy, and they
Speaker 1: add the rest with CGI. But I've seen bits of
Speaker 1: the footage with the added Siagiant. It looks it looks
Speaker 1: like we're in the real place.
Speaker 2: And then for me what i'd last like that was
Speaker 2: where did you eat in realm?
Speaker 3: Don't ask me the names I've gone.
Speaker 2: Okay, just tell me about the food. How did it
Speaker 2: feel to be eating the food of round? For as
Speaker 2: long as I'm there?
Speaker 1: Stanley hipp you don't mant me bring you up again
Speaker 1: with you, But Stanley Teacher, you brought a chunk of
Speaker 1: us towards the end, a group of us who were filming,
Speaker 1: including Edward. It's wonderful restaurant called not pomer Doughty but
Speaker 1: Pomme Dory, I believe, and it's an old family restaurant
Speaker 1: that was beloved of Pasolini, the director, and he organized
Speaker 1: this wonderful meal there late, very late after a day's filming,
Speaker 1: and that I think was the best meal I had.
Speaker 1: They had put on the special meal because it was
Speaker 1: Stanley and they were charming. And I went back there
Speaker 1: to that restaurant again, and I returned to Rome later
Speaker 1: this year in the summer to make their return. And
Speaker 1: it's just very and you don't really they kind of
Speaker 1: give you food you didn't really order. I mean, you
Speaker 1: can't order, but they just sort of present you with
Speaker 1: what they feel is the best pastor of the evening.
Speaker 3: And it was very easy.
Speaker 1: And I definitely preferred the more threat or style than
Speaker 1: the restaurants, the high flying restaurants. I not drawn to
Speaker 1: it so much.
Speaker 2: Did you read out a lot?
Speaker 3: Would you filming on conclaims? I ate out quite a bit, but.
Speaker 1: We're filming day. The filming hours are so long. In
Speaker 1: the end, I would go back to my flat and
Speaker 1: I cooked something. But in the weekends with you and
Speaker 1: what about Greece.
Speaker 3: I love oh when Greece and Corse.
Speaker 1: We were in cor food for most of it and
Speaker 1: we came across a wonderful restaurant which served the most
Speaker 1: exquisite lamb that was on the spit.
Speaker 3: Oh God the lamb.
Speaker 1: Was was just extraordinary, just so circular and tasty, and
Speaker 1: Spiros's restaurant it was. It was quite a simple restaurant,
Speaker 1: catering for mostly tourists.
Speaker 3: But god the lamb was.
Speaker 2: What month was spring? May? Oh you we just kept
Speaker 2: you in Morocco? Was that also? Don't you think? I agree?
Speaker 2: I think Moroccan.
Speaker 3: Food that was heaven.
Speaker 1: Let's take Jeene cooking is one of the best cooking
Speaker 1: ways of cooking I think I've had come across.
Speaker 3: Yeah that.
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you about the menu. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because you know, here we are a chef, chef Shanza chef,
Speaker 2: were going into a restaurant and I remember you calling
Speaker 2: me up from there and saying that you were, you know,
Speaker 2: learning the skills. A woman from San Francisco came, did
Speaker 2: She a.
Speaker 1: Chef Dominique Krenn, who I think has a restaurant in
Speaker 1: San Francisco called Atelier tren And there's a wonderful chef's
Speaker 1: table on her and she's from Brittany originally, she's fantastic
Speaker 1: and she came and she designed all the food for
Speaker 1: the film, and then she oversaw the initial first few
Speaker 1: days of shooting, and then she left a couple of
Speaker 1: her chefs with us who oversaw not just the food
Speaker 1: and the preparation of the food, but they were looking
Speaker 1: at the kitchen staff in our film to make sure
Speaker 1: that they behaved in their demeanor and there just their
Speaker 1: rhythm of movement, just so anyone looking at it would
Speaker 1: believe it was a working kitchen.
Speaker 2: What was it like playing it was a work kitchen?
Speaker 2: I thought, I believed it was a working kitchen. No,
Speaker 2: I did, I definitely did. I mean, you were just
Speaker 2: such a fantastic character. But the and that type of
Speaker 2: food and the hidden humor. Was saying to William that
Speaker 2: Richard and I went to Elbouli in the early days,
Speaker 2: you know, that restaurant in Spain, and it was very
Speaker 2: much one little tiny piece of food after another, one
Speaker 2: olive that exploded in your mouth, and one you know,
Speaker 2: piece of crab that you know you had to pick,
Speaker 2: and then that was it, And said they said to us,
Speaker 2: after twelve courses, he said, now we're going to finish
Speaker 2: with ravioli, with parmesan and butter and sage, and I thought,
Speaker 2: at last, we're getting something to eat. And a plate
Speaker 2: came and it was just a plate, and so we
Speaker 2: just waited and waited and waited, and we said, where
Speaker 2: is the ravioli? And they said that basically, it was
Speaker 2: a spray. It was a spray that they'd sprayed on
Speaker 2: the plate and it had the essence of raviole with
Speaker 2: butter and parmesan. And we had to take our finger
Speaker 2: and kind of wipe the plate. And that was a dish,
Speaker 2: you know, And I thought, that's okay, exactly.
Speaker 3: The menu is inspired by that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kind So what was it like being a chef?
Speaker 3: And well, as you saw.
Speaker 1: From the film, I mean, I'm I run the restaurant,
Speaker 1: so he doesn't do much cooking at all. He was
Speaker 1: seeing it until the very end when he's challenged to
Speaker 1: make a good old fashioned cheeseburger, which he does make.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I had to cook that.
Speaker 2: Did you learn skills just the cheeseburger? You make a
Speaker 2: good cheeseburger?
Speaker 3: It was good?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is there something that you love about a restaurant or
Speaker 2: going I would say that people do very private things
Speaker 2: in a public space. Have you used restaurants as a
Speaker 2: sort of safety net. Do you think to do something
Speaker 2: that's difficult or not.
Speaker 1: If you meet someone in I mean I usually eat
Speaker 1: either with one other or on my own, or maybe
Speaker 1: after a show with whoever it might have been coming.
Speaker 1: I like, I love going on my own to restaurant
Speaker 1: with a book and it's a privilege. But to have
Speaker 1: a glass of wine and simple food, I love that,
Speaker 1: but going with I have been in situations where this
Speaker 1: is the meal where you tell son so that you're
Speaker 1: not going to do the film, or you tell them
Speaker 1: that you can't see them anymore, or you know, and
Speaker 1: that's heavy. That's I mean that that in that sense,
Speaker 1: when it's a tricky thing, then the restaurant is a
Speaker 1: sort of padding, as you say, a safety note. But
Speaker 1: it means you don't enjoy it's all. Then then the
Speaker 1: food and the service, then that's all a kind of
Speaker 1: pathway to get through the difficult thing you've told.
Speaker 3: Yourself you've got to do.
Speaker 1: So I like, I like to be in a relaxed
Speaker 1: context where it's just the enjoyment of sharing food with people,
Speaker 1: and of course drink a good you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: let's talk about alcohol. I love a drink.
Speaker 2: Let's have a drink.
Speaker 1: You know, I love Martini. I love a Negroni and
Speaker 1: why I mean, I am not in excess, but I
Speaker 1: just love that that little drop in the kind of
Speaker 1: anxiety as the and I hate getting really off my face,
Speaker 1: I don't. I hate the after efface, but I just
Speaker 1: love that little.
Speaker 3: The first.
Speaker 2: Do you have a cocktail.
Speaker 3: Martin?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I love a cocktail. We're saying how cocktails. We had
Speaker 2: lunch dinner once with some American friends. We say, how
Speaker 2: their parents, You know, some Americans have like bars in
Speaker 2: their house. You know that was that very bar and
Speaker 2: having a cocktail. But how delicious a cocktail is, you know,
Speaker 2: and how nice and so as in you because when
Speaker 2: the last thing I saw was Beat the Devil.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Beat the Devil was a monologue written by David Hare,
Speaker 1: who suffered from contracting the COVID very badly. So he
Speaker 1: wrote about it in the form of a monologue which
Speaker 1: I performed at the Bridge Theater. So it was about
Speaker 1: forty five minutes of a man's account of having COVID
Speaker 1: very severe symptoms. And it was also an account of
Speaker 1: the government's handling of COVID, or lack of handling of
Speaker 1: COVID when borders remained open and it seemed that no
Speaker 1: one had a handle on it.
Speaker 2: You saw at the bridge and then.
Speaker 1: But I also did it on the back of one martini.
Speaker 2: You did.
Speaker 3: You sat down.
Speaker 1: Next to me and said, what's you doing? What you're
Speaker 1: doing doing this mode? Let me hear it, Let me
Speaker 1: hear I can't read this. Forty five minutes doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: I'll just hear a little bit.
Speaker 2: You said, you said, because you said, you said, I'll
Speaker 2: just do the first five minutes. And so we did
Speaker 2: the first five minutes, and I said, you can't stop,
Speaker 2: don't stop, and so then another I said, don't stop
Speaker 2: because it we just did not want this to stop.
Speaker 2: But the the it was forty five minutes of my
Speaker 2: sitting there over drive martini to the monologue. And the
Speaker 2: next day a friend of mine said to me on
Speaker 2: the phone, you know, I was going to come over
Speaker 2: at the table and say hello to you, but I
Speaker 2: could just see you couldn't get a word at edge
Speaker 2: twice Rank was talking and talking and talking. I said,
Speaker 2: that was the monologue. If you like listening to Ruthie's
Speaker 2: Table four, would you please make sure to rate and
Speaker 2: review the podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
Speaker 2: O wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. The last
Speaker 2: thing you can talk about is Macbeth. Tell us what's
Speaker 2: happening now?
Speaker 1: It's a tour of Macbeth. I think well. I certainly
Speaker 1: wanted to and Simon Godin, who's directing, we both felt
Speaker 1: that to do it in unusual spaces, not in the
Speaker 1: West End, but also take it not to not be London,
Speaker 1: not be London centric for all of the tour. But
Speaker 1: we said we're in Liverpool from late mid November to
Speaker 1: just before Christmas. Then we have Christmas, but we go
Speaker 1: out to Edinburgh for two weeks. Then we come to
Speaker 1: London for six seven weeks in February March, and then
Speaker 1: we close in Washington, d C. Simon Godwin is running
Speaker 1: all the artistic he's the artistic director of the Shakespeare
Speaker 1: Theater in Washington.
Speaker 3: So that's the link.
Speaker 2: Where will it be in London.
Speaker 1: It'll be in a warehouse in South London, towards the
Speaker 1: rather high the area of London. We're basically we're finding
Speaker 1: great big warehouses and we're putting in a module of
Speaker 1: a theater and there will be some sort of sense
Speaker 1: of walking into a war zone as you take your.
Speaker 2: Seat to do more theaters in ross space.
Speaker 3: I think it's I think it's exciting.
Speaker 1: I like going to different unusual spaces to see you
Speaker 1: play and any kind of performance.
Speaker 2: Even the bridge is great.
Speaker 1: Yees to go out of the familiar patterns of the
Speaker 1: Western velvet seats and red velvet seats was just so
Speaker 1: with no need room, so close together. But you know
Speaker 1: it's still I've seen fantastic things in the West n
Speaker 1: So it's just I also think I toured in this
Speaker 1: t s Eliot and four Quartets about two years ago,
Speaker 1: and I hadn't I hadn't toured much in England, and
Speaker 1: I love touring. I love going to different cities and something.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's romantic, but I liked going on the road
Speaker 1: a bit.
Speaker 2: We did First Love. I can't remember when that was
Speaker 2: ten years ago maybe or more. And do you remember that?
Speaker 1: Are getting very nervous because it was out of a
Speaker 1: theatrical context where somehow the whole sort of physical routine
Speaker 1: of the theater, the dressing room, of the corridor, the backstage,
Speaker 1: and that's all.
Speaker 3: But this was daylight.
Speaker 1: I think it was early summer, and I remember at
Speaker 1: one moment, just suddenly, I have a probably inadvisable habit
Speaker 1: of slightly running the lines before you go on stage,
Speaker 1: and when you're slightly nervous, you can start to go
Speaker 1: through the first line, then you blank, what's that? I
Speaker 1: know that word? And then and then it can build
Speaker 1: and you have to go rushing back to the script
Speaker 1: and it's all nerves. And I had a moment like
Speaker 1: that here because I think it was it felt quite
Speaker 1: exposing with that, because it was there were no lights,
Speaker 1: were no it was just I could see everyone's face.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's interesting because we did that. We did about
Speaker 2: four of them. We did We did it with you
Speaker 2: and Ian McKellen, and then I remember we did one
Speaker 2: with Judy Detch Do you remember that? And we managed
Speaker 2: to see about eighty or one hundred people, and I
Speaker 2: thought it would be so nice for the actors to
Speaker 2: be in a home with people in a relaxed setting,
Speaker 2: and literally we almost couldn't get Judy Dench to come down.
Speaker 2: She froze. It's the same exact She sat in my
Speaker 2: bedroom and there was like a Judy's feelings and she
Speaker 2: said the same thing as you that she did not
Speaker 2: suffer from stage fact that there's something about the You.
Speaker 1: Know, when you're on stage in the theater, you have lights,
Speaker 1: and the lights are on the performer or on oneself,
Speaker 1: and they, therefore most of the audience are in darkness.
Speaker 1: You can feel yourself cocooned. But if you perform in
Speaker 1: daylight and you see the faces, you can in your neuroses,
Speaker 1: you can read into their face something like, oh, their board,
Speaker 1: or they've got a furrowed brow. You immediately assume that
Speaker 1: person's looking at their furrowed brow, they must be confused
Speaker 1: or irritated. Often they're just concentrating.
Speaker 2: I do that in the ast. You know, we have
Speaker 2: an open kitchen. Yeah, and you're watching as they put
Speaker 2: the spoons. And so when I go to restaurant, I
Speaker 2: always get a huge smile. This is absolutely delicious.
Speaker 1: So there is that thing about the theater of the restaurant,
Speaker 1: the people greeting you and that. And years and years ago,
Speaker 1: I worked not in a restaurant. I worked in Brown's
Speaker 1: Hotel as a house porter. So I was literally the
Speaker 1: lowest of the low with a white coat and I
Speaker 1: changed light bulbs and I hoovered corridors and my polished
Speaker 1: brass but I got to see that real divide between
Speaker 1: the machinery of a hotel backstage and the stink of
Speaker 1: the kitchen or the washing up where all the all
Speaker 1: food has been chucked out.
Speaker 2: But a lot of actors worked as waiters, and I thought, well,
Speaker 2: that's probably because it's a theatrical setting. It's drama. And
Speaker 2: also I often say to them, you know, no matter
Speaker 2: what mood you're in, no matter what your girlfriend said
Speaker 2: to you today, or if your boyfriend was you know,
Speaker 2: just lost his job, basically you are playing the role.
Speaker 2: You know, even if you don't, you're playing the roof
Speaker 2: somebody really likes people, who's really happy to see people.
Speaker 2: And hopefully you don't have to play that role because
Speaker 2: you feel it. If you don't feel it, too bad.
Speaker 1: It is key when someone smiles at you and you
Speaker 1: feel that your custom is valued and that the choice
Speaker 1: they want to help you. It is a huge difference
Speaker 1: between the slightly switched off.
Speaker 2: Look, well, you are deeply loved in the restaurant. You
Speaker 2: have a house now, a beautiful house, and suffolk I
Speaker 2: still haven't seen, but I'm going to come and we're
Speaker 2: going to cook together, and so tell me about what
Speaker 2: it's like cooking there.
Speaker 3: I like to get very simple food, right, I mean,
Speaker 3: I'm not this sounds no way.
Speaker 1: I have your cook books to hand and not a lingy,
Speaker 1: and I like his recipes a lot. I do too,
Speaker 1: And I love his slow cook lamb, which is the
Speaker 1: last thing I cooked. You marinated for two You do
Speaker 1: a marinated shoulder shoulder, and then you circa in all
Speaker 1: these garlic and lemon and spices, and you wrap it
Speaker 1: up in clingfilm and let it in this to keep
Speaker 1: it in the fridge as long as possible, and then
Speaker 1: slow cook it for about five hours.
Speaker 2: It just falls away. Food is so much, but it's
Speaker 2: also you know, it's about love, and it's about relaxing.
Speaker 2: It's about being with others, being by yourself, thinking about
Speaker 2: your family. And I guess it's really about comfort. And
Speaker 2: so my last question to you is do you have
Speaker 2: a comfort food.
Speaker 1: I don't eat a lot of pasta, but I love pasta,
Speaker 1: and that would be a comfort food. I just think
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. It's not I agree
Speaker 1: a breakfast is my favorite meal.
Speaker 2: Your favorite meal?
Speaker 1: I love breakfast, No, I love it evening meal.
Speaker 3: But there's something about breakfast.
Speaker 1: I just it's about starting the day.
Speaker 3: It's about.
Speaker 1: I will have some younger with walnuts and a bit
Speaker 1: of honey, and then I will have an egg or
Speaker 1: two with some toast or a piece of smack salmon.
Speaker 3: The coffee.
Speaker 2: We have to go to Mexico together because in Mexico
Speaker 2: breakfast is the meal. So good.
Speaker 3: So love you lots and thank you. It was great
Speaker 3: to talk to you, Ruthie.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Okay, we're done, Yeah, all right, let's go eat.
Speaker 6: Ruthie's Table four is produced by Atami Studios for iHeartRadio.
Speaker 6: It's hosted by Ruthie Rogers and it's produced by William Lenski.
Speaker 6: This episode was edited by Julia Johnson and mixed by
Speaker 6: Nigel Appleton. Our executive producers are faced You and Zad Rogers.
Speaker 6: Our production manager is Caitlin Paramore, and our production coordinator
Speaker 6: is Bella Selini. This episode had additional contributions by Sean
Speaker 6: Wynn Owen. Thank you to everyone at the River Cafe
Speaker 6: for your help in making this episode.