WEBVTT - Jonathan Van Ness on Body Acceptance and Feeling Gorgeous 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:07.960 Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question. 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.160 I love Jonathan Vaness. You probably know him from the 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:15.440 Netflix hit Queer Eye, and maybe you've sought out his 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:19.560 hair care advice or seeing him doing backflips on Instagram. 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:25.080 He is hilarious, effusive, and really smart, but it hasn't 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.840 always been easy. In his twenty nineteen memoir Over the Top, 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:33.920 A Raw Journey to Self Love, Jonathan detailed his tumultuous childhood, 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:37.680 coming to understand his gender identity and his experience with 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:41.559 body dysmorphia and disordered eating. I want to let our 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:45.120 listeners know that this episode contains some sensitive subject matter, 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:50.200 including eating disorders and sexual assault. It's an important conversation, 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:53.880 but it might be triggering for some people. In fact, 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.800 did you know eating disorders affect almost thirty million Americans? 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:04.120 That's right, thirty million people of all ages, gender shapes, 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:08.600 and sexual orientations. In my twenties, I actually had bulimia, 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.039 and in the years since, I've tried to better understand 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:15.560 these issues. For Pride Month, I wanted to focus the 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:21.000 conversation on the LGBTQIA plus community, and I thought Jonathan 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:24.240 would be the perfect person to join me. I also 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:26.720 wanted to bring in an expert, because let's face it, 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.679 I'm not one, so I invited clinical psychologist doctor Jesse 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.560 Menzel to be a part of this. Jesse is the 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:37.800 vice president of program development for EQUIP, which provides virtual, 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:42.400 evidence based eating disorder treatment, often to people without access 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:47.240 to care. I'm an advisor to and investor in EQUIP, 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:50.600 and I think what they're doing is critically important. So 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.200 we began the conversation with Jesse and how she became 0:01:54.320 --> 0:02:01.240 interested in this kind of work. Jesse, tell me about 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:06.120 yourself and how you got interested in helping people who 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:08.680 have a whole panoply of eating disorders. 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:11.640 Thanks Katie, and thanks so much for having me. I 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:13.280 want to just take a quick second because I don't 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:15.720 know if everybody knows what EQUIP is, but we are 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:21.320 a totally virtual, remote eating disorder program. So we are 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.120 here to bring treatment to people in their homes and 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:29.120 their lives, with their shows and families, and the idea 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:31.720 being that, you know, the key I think to solving 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.679 access is to bring treatment to people, and that when 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:38.040 we can deliver treatment in someone's home with their support system, 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.280 that's what's going to be key. To helping them reach 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.000 lasting recovery. So for a bit of context about me, 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:48.080 I'm a clinical psychologist and I really was drawn to 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.679 the field of eating disorders because of a really long 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:54.680 standing interest in body image and particularly the things that 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.920 influence our body image from a cultural socio and a 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.519 cultural lens. The media is a interest of mine. In particular. 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:04.600 I grew up in a household where I had a 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.640 communications professor for a father, and we would talk about 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:11.040 the media all the time and how it shapes these 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:15.160 ideals both appearance and culturally for women, in particular because 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:16.919 I grew up with three sisters and so that was 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:19.880 a big conversation in our household, and that's really what 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:25.240 led me into eating disorders. So I've had the immense 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:27.800 privilege of being able to work with and be trained 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:31.440 by some of the foremost experts in the field. And 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.360 it was during my time when I was on faculty 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:38.120 at UC San Diego that I met EQUIPS co founders 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.800 at Aaron Parks and Christina Saffron, and I really got 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:45.840 to experience what effective eating disorder treatment was for the 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:49.760 first time, you know, being able to work with individuals 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.000 of all ages. I worked in our outpatient clinics and 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.280 our inpatient clinics and to finally see that, hey, this 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:59.760 is how we can actually help people. And that's what 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.200 eventually led me to make the move over to join 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:06.360 doctor Parks that equip because I was like, here in academia, 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.720 we can only help so many people, and as you said, Katie, 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.080 thirty million people will struggle with eating disorders in their lifetime, 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:16.120 and so it meant a lot to me to be 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:19.120 involved in a venture and in a mission that could 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:23.320 really help take these treatments that work out of academia 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:27.320 and bring it to people everywhere so that everyone could 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:28.440 access this treatment. 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:33.120 And I think Javin is a real example of the 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:38.200 variety of individuals who are impacted by eating disorders, because 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:41.919 I do think for so long we had this image 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:47.240 in our minds about young, sort of white, privileged girls 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:51.480 suffering from eating disorders, and I think documentaries and movies 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:57.040 about this issue have perpetuated that stereotype. And before Jonathan 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:03.360 talks about their situation growing and their sort of distorted 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:08.600 relationship with food, can you tell us about how eating 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:14.520 disorders are particularly prevalent in the LGBTQIA plus community. 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:17.440 Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm so glad you brought this up, Katie, 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:19.720 because you're right. I think we have this idea that 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.000 there's a certain look to an eating disorder, right, and 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:29.000 it's that thin, able bodied, cisgender, heterosexual, white woman in 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:32.640 her twenties, and that is so far from the truth. 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:36.080 And in fact, it's usually these communities that we think 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.200 of as not getting eating disorders who are actually the 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:44.080 most at risk. And the LGBTQ plus community in particular 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:47.599 is I think it's like fourfold higher or increased risk 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:51.799 for developing eating disorders in large part in general because 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:55.359 of the increased stress that this community faces and a 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.080 lot of the almost like double appearance standards are double 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.840 appearance ideal that are often held within this community that 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.080 places those increased pressures on them to look a certain way. 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:08.200 And I think we can go into a lot more 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.920 about what places this community at risk, but this is definitely, 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.520 I think a really important group of individuals to talk 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:18.200 about when we talk about awareness of who develops an 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:19.680 eating disorder and who's at risk. 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.440 JVN. I'm going to work hard to get these pronouns right, 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:23.880 and I'm. 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:27.320 And all of them you can do. 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.599 Heishi, They there's no slipping with me, honey, because I 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.400 use all of them. So you're you're in the clear. 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:39.680 So, Jonathan, when you hear Jesse talk about this, does 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:43.960 this resonate with you in terms of why folks like 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.239 you might be at greater risk? 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:51.200 It's interesting, actually, I was thinking about how you were 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:56.640 talking about how documentaries in like the eighties and nineties 0:06:56.680 --> 0:07:00.000 perpetuated this idea that it was like younger white heterosexual 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.800 women who suffer most from eating disorders. And I think 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:05.279 when I first realized that I was having an issue 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.680 early in my teens, I remember finding literature in the 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:12.720 library that spoke to the amount of I mean, they 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:15.280 didn't call it sis hetman because this was a book 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:17.840 that was written in the seventies, but it talked about 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.800 the underdiagnosis of eating disorders and men. And I think 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.280 that kind of the way that we're speaking to, like, oh, 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:26.280 you know a lot of those documentaries in coverage was 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.000 perpetuating the idea that it's only something that affects women. 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:31.680 I think that even this narrative that queer people are 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.200 four times higher, that even perpetuates the idea that like, 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:37.480 queer people are more at risk. I think when you 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:41.239 look at straight men, not to like play a violin 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.200 for straight white men, but if you look at straight 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.240 men and you look at the rise of you know, 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:50.720 performance enhancing drugs, the way that like my feed on 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:55.240 Instagram is full of sis hetman who are clearly on steroids, 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:59.200 who are clearly abusing their bodies, who clearly have an 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:03.320 insanely commonplicated relationship with food. If you look at Hollywood 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.000 leading men who have to get into really intense shape 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:10.040 for certain roles. When a woman loses weight, it's like 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.000 oh god, x y Z. When a man when you 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:15.000 have to book up and all of a sudden, you've 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.160 been a certain way for your whole career, and I 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:19.560 can think of a few right off the top of 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:21.080 my head. And then all of a sudden, you book 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:25.080 a superhero movie and you are five times more muscular, 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:28.040 and your waste is tiny, and you're you know, deltoids 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.000 are capped, you're doing stuff. 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:32.160 There is a relationship with food that you have. I mean, 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:33.360 so this idea that. 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:35.800 It's only queer men and that it's only women, I 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.320 think is not true. And I also think that on 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:41.200 my podcast, I've learned a lot about how like you 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:43.520 know science. We have this idea of science and the 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:46.480 coverage of science as being this like infallible island, and 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:48.920 that the data that comes up in science is infallible 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:50.439 or we don't really speak to it. And I'm definitely 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:52.560 not a Q and non conspiracy girl. Like I'm pro vax, 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:56.920 I'm pro science. However, science is a reflection of society 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.920 because the questions that we even ask in science are 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.720 based off of the questions that we're asking in society. 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:07.080 So men, because of toxic masculinity, do not speak to 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:09.880 when they have an abusive relationship with food, when they 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:11.880 don't know how to control their food intake, when they 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:12.319 don't know. 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:13.120 How to ask for help. 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.280 It's seemed as shameful, it's seen as all you know, 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:20.160 it challenges that idea that men are stronger xyz. So 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:21.839 I just think we have to be careful when we're 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:25.160 talking about eating disorders, especially for like young men who 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.760 absolutely struggle with body ideals. They look at these men's 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:30.520 fitness covers and they think that's normal. 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:31.920 I do think that also happens in. 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:34.720 The queer community, but I really think that it happens 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:37.640 probably to straight men just as much. But toxic masculinity 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:39.600 does not allow them to ask for help. 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.920 Jess. I'm curious how you feel about that, because I 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.319 think what JVN Is saying, if I'm correct me, if 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:49.160 I'm wrong, Jonathan, is that we have to be careful 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:53.520 about making these generalizations. That it seems to me that 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.440 people having a screwed up relationship with food and their 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:04.199 bodies and exercise and honestly their shells right their external 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:11.520 appearance and what they're signaling to society that it knows 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:12.520 no boundaries. 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:17.360 Basically, Oh absolutely, I couldn't agree more jav And You're 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.720 exactly right, Like, this is not something This is something 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.040 that touches men, It touches the black community, it touches 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:28.160 it touches older men and women, it touches young kids. 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:30.920 I mean, like, there's no escaping this. We are all 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.800 steeped in this culture that is obsessed with the way 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.200 we look, that is obsessed with the way we eat, 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.200 and that pushes all of us to these extremes and 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.000 more importantly sends this message that like we should never 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.400 be satisfied, right, Like it's like, well, yes, we have 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:47.120 to love the way we look, but also we should 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.240 never stop working on how we look, and we should 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.160 always be thinking about changing our bodies, and that just 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:56.440 sets people up to perpetually be dissatisfied, to feel like 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:58.960 they're failing, to feel like they're not living up, and 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.400 to forever be read to the next fad diet or 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.320 the next extreme to try to make themselves feel better. 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:09.440 It's like this never ending, vicious cycle of constantly searching 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:11.320 for that perfect look that we can ever find, and 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:13.480 you're right, it touches all of us. 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:18.280 And social media obviously has only exacerbated the issue because 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:24.319 we're constantly accosted by images of perfection or people seeking perfection. 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:24.800 Right. 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:28.600 But I'm curious, Jonathan, if you can talk a little 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:33.760 bit about your childhood, because I do think and Jesse's 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.200 the experts, she'll correct me if I'm wrong, But I 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:40.280 do think there are some common threads that connect everyone 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:44.120 who has struggles in this area. And as I read 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.640 your story and read your book, Jonathan, it seems like 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:52.959 there were things that happened in your childhood that were triggers. 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:57.120 Because you seem like a person full of joy, such 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:02.040 an individual who in many ways loved yourself, but in 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.800 other ways society wouldn't let you be the person you 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:08.520 wanted to be. Can you just talk about your journey 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:12.720 a little bit as a young person growing up in Quincy, Illinois. 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.400 I don't know if like loving yourself as ever like, 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:16.720 and I talk about this a lot in the book. 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:18.280 I don't think it's like this like finish line that 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:19.840 you get to and you're like, oh, yes, like I 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.160 did the Loving Myself marathon and now I get to 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:23.680 put that in a pretty little package and put it 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:25.080 up on a shelf. But I don't have to deal 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:28.000 with that again. But I definitely think that, like, you know, 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:29.800 it took me a long time to like learn to 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.680 love and accept myself, and that, you know, acceptance is 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:34.840 very much like a few steps forward, a few steps 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:36.200 back sort of things. So I feel like, you know, 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:38.160 just to get that out of the way. But yes, 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.520 as a child, I think one of the things that 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:42.160 sticks out for me the most when I think about 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:44.120 over the Top and writing over the top. When I 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:48.079 was going into some of those really formative like core memories, 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:52.200 it's like those Bowflex commercials, Like it's like nineteen ninety one. 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.920 I remember like it was trying to learn to backflip 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:56.560 on the trampoline because like all I wanted to be 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:59.640 was Kim zamescal and there was these Bowflex commercials and 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.200 I I remember looking at my mom and I was like, Mom, 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:04.920 when am I going to have abdominals? Like I just 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.680 I was like because they kept talking about these abdominals, 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:09.080 and I was like, all these other people have these 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.960 abdominals on this television screen, but I have not abdominals. 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:15.719 I have this like softer belly and I don't get it. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.679 And and I remember, you know, there was a lot 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:21.080 of conversation strut like you know, some people genetically just 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:21.600 don't have. 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:23.920 They won't have visible apps, and I was like, oh 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.640 my god, I'm one of those people. Fuck Like oh yeah. 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:32.280 There's a lot of like fear around like not looking 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.840 like other young you know, other people my age, and 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.160 then looking at older men and being like, oh my god, 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:39.320 how am I ever going to look like that? 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:40.520 I don't look like that now. 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:42.439 So there's just being a lot of like fear around, 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:45.880 you know, the way that my body looked. And I 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:47.679 think that for me, I think a lot of the 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.480 body image was like as I came of age and 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.719 realized that like you're not gonna like it's already heard 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.400 to date as a young gay person in a rural space. 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.760 But then there's all these like really intense like standards 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.080 in the gay world around like what you're meant to 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.200 look like, and so in some spaces it's getting better, 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:06.840 but that still is like a very like you know, 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.480 fat phobia and racism and transphobia and just being really 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.720 like you know, like in your toxic masculinity and the 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:14.960 gay community is still a thing. 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.240 Like we weren't exploring those ideas then. But I think 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:19.360 it's really about validation. 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:20.800 That's where I was going with that, is that it's 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:22.320 like you want to look a certain way so that 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:24.240 people will accept you, because it like hurts when you're 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:26.120 getting rejected. If you're like do you think I'm cute, 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.520 They're like, no, I think you're a femme, fat ugly, 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.080 and you're like, oh my god, So you gotta get 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:34.800 cuter and butche it up so people will accept you. 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.280 And I think that also with men, like so the 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:40.720 body image things, it's really about like rejection, putting yourself 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:42.480 out there having like whether it's a man rejecting you, 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.520 a woman rejecting you, it just it really is about 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:48.280 I think it's about rejection and validation and in order 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.280 to be like, oh it hurts me when I get rejected, 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:53.680 or like it makes me feel stupid when I'm asking 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:55.800 for validation in whatever kind of way. I think that's 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.080 why men have a harder time speaking to it, because 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.640 that's such a vulnerable thing to say. But I was, 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:02.640 you know, seeing all of this play out in real time, 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:04.640 you know, as a kid as well. It's not like 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:06.520 I just learned this, Like I was observing this as 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:07.440 a child as well. 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.640 Well. Talk about figuring out your place and the culture 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:14.680 and how these unrealistic beauty standards, whether it was the 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:19.080 bowflex commercial or being bullied for the way you looked 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.880 as a kid, or you know, how did that all 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.880 play out in your head in terms of having it 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.440 translate into your relationship with food. 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.520 Yeah, absolutely so when I came of age and realized that, like, oh, 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:35.160 like maybe people will think you're cuter if you lose weight, 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:36.760 and they'll be nicer to you if you lose weight. 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:39.960 So that kind of happened, Like through the very beginning 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.360 of my puberty, I got a lot of comfort from food. 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:44.640 At the same time, you know, I'm a survivor of 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:46.640 sexual abuse, so there was like I had a lot 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.840 of lack of control with that. There's a lot of 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:52.960 confusion with that. You know, couldn't control it, big secret. 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.520 But I know, like people will say, like, oh, like 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:00.000 you're queer or trans are non binary because you were 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.920 sexually abused as a child. Like people say that a lot, 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:04.840 like in comments when I speak to being a survivor 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.720 of sexual abuse, which really pisses me off because I 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:09.640 know for a fact I was humping pillows to Tom 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.840 Selleck and Magnum p I way before I got sexually abused. Okay, 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.920 the reason why this is important is because just like 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.840 eating disorders and just like sexual abuse, you can put 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:20.880 ten people in the same situation and they're all going 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.920 to have like really different ways of dealing with that trauma. 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:26.440 So like, just because you're a survival abuse does not 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:27.880 mean you're going to be gay. I know lots of 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:30.080 other people who have survived sexual abuse, whether it was 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.440 like a heterod sexual abusive situation or like a homosexual 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.680 sexual abusive situation. But as far as the food part goes, 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.920 like I think because I didn't have control and I 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.240 didn't understand boundaries, and I had this huge secret food 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:46.600 was this place where I could feel better. I didn't 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:49.080 understand I was getting this gigantic rush of dopamines, but 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.160 like I was, so I was just like loaded up 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.240 on dopamine and that that was you know, I had control, 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:54.800 or at least I. 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:55.320 Thought I did. 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.240 When we come back, JVN talks about how he came 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:13.160 to better understand and his own non binary identity. We're 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.399 back with JBN and Jesse Manzielkin is. 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:23.200 So freaking since nineteen ninety two, Get out of here. God, 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.640 other than your hair, other than your hair. But like facially, 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.160 you know what I'm saying, Like this is just gorge, Jesse. 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.119 I mean, you deal with with people all the time 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:37.000 where they're you know, they're plagued by this food noise, 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:41.479 if you will, and constantly thinking about it, and I 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:46.440 think equating some kind of moral goodness or badness right 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:50.480 with your behavior. And then of course there's the body 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:56.840 dysmorphia element as well, kind of never feeling satisfied, always 0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:01.040 focusing on the negative, never kind of being happy with 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:05.040 who you are and what you look like. So hearing 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:09.760 Jonathan talk about this, does this sound familiar in terms 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:11.760 of a lot of your other patients. 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:16.600 Oh absolutely, And I think I really I really appreciate Jonathan, 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:19.720 how you kind of connect this to emotions and how 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:22.480 people cope with their emotions, because I think we tend 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:26.240 to like oversimplify eating disorders sometimes, and that's like one 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.880 of those awful myths I think that is out there, that, right, 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:32.200 eating disorders are like this vanity issue, but it's only 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:36.560 about looking a certain way or looking attractive or being attractive, 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.359 and it's it's so much more complex than that. And 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:42.480 you brought that up exactly, which is that there's this 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:47.000 really complex connection between our emotions and often like for 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:49.560 some people, like you said it exactly right, Like for 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.080 some people it's you know, I turned to substances. He 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:56.240 for some people it's it's food, it's or it's exercise, 0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:00.000 and it's like it's hitting those extremes and using those 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.400 behaviors to try to regulate your emotions in some way, 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:09.200 especially when those emotions feel completely intolerable. Right, it's so distressing, 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:13.520 it's so painful, and so logically I think understandably, people 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:16.520 reach for whatever seems to work for them, and then 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.080 they get trapped into that cycle because it works so 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.240 well in that moment right to numb out or to escape, 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.480 or you get that rush or that euphoria, but then 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:29.160 ultimately it catches up with you right like it begins 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.119 to cause problems. And so the key is really finding 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.720 what are those other strategies or those ways that I 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:38.880 can soothe myself, that I can take care of those 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.560 emotions in a way that is much healthier for me. 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.280 And I think, like the marker of recovery is how 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.199 am I doing most of the time, How am I 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:49.359 dealing with those emotions most of the time as I 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:50.680 move forward in my life. 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.600 So really for me, like I luckily, and I think 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:55.600 that was true therapy. I like for me, it's like 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:57.800 it's no more about if I look cute or not. 0:19:57.840 --> 0:19:59.359 I feel like I look really cute. I feel like 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.200 I actually maybe like developed like a reverse body dysmorphia 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:03.840 where I actually think I look cuter than I am, 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:06.320 like through a lot of self work. I think I 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:07.680 really do. But I think that was like a lot 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.000 of like self work, and like I have like confidence now, 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:12.760 which is like awesome, but I still have the patterns 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:15.280 and so like you know, even though I still I 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:17.640 think I look cuter, but I still yeah, I still 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:20.480 have those like old patterns, right, Like I caught myself 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.720 like shaming myself almost or like having this narrative that 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:26.840 like wasn't reflective of reality because I'm used to having 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:27.720 more disordered eating. 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:30.520 So, yeah, healing. You're so right, jesse H. 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:33.199 I don't think I've ever read so much fun on 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.840 a podcast in my life. 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:38.280 Well, I'm glad that you said that, because yeah, like 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.800 this difference right between like it's okay to use food 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.159 in a comforting and emotional way or to enjoy the taste, 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:48.120 right Like, there's nothing in wrong with embracing the fact 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.560 that food can bring us pleasure and enjoyment. It's just 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:53.840 thinking about why am I using this? And what is 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:56.040 the extreme and what is the function of why I'm 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:58.040 using this? And that's like that's part of that key 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.240 to healing and recovering, right doing this because I enjoy 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:03.000 it and even just because it's going to bring me 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:05.200 a little bit of soothing and the happiness right now, 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:07.520