Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question.
Speaker 1: I love Jonathan Vaness. You probably know him from the
Speaker 1: Netflix hit Queer Eye, and maybe you've sought out his
Speaker 1: hair care advice or seeing him doing backflips on Instagram.
Speaker 1: He is hilarious, effusive, and really smart, but it hasn't
Speaker 1: always been easy. In his twenty nineteen memoir Over the Top,
Speaker 1: A Raw Journey to Self Love, Jonathan detailed his tumultuous childhood,
Speaker 1: coming to understand his gender identity and his experience with
Speaker 1: body dysmorphia and disordered eating. I want to let our
Speaker 1: listeners know that this episode contains some sensitive subject matter,
Speaker 1: including eating disorders and sexual assault. It's an important conversation,
Speaker 1: but it might be triggering for some people. In fact,
Speaker 1: did you know eating disorders affect almost thirty million Americans?
Speaker 1: That's right, thirty million people of all ages, gender shapes,
Speaker 1: and sexual orientations. In my twenties, I actually had bulimia,
Speaker 1: and in the years since, I've tried to better understand
Speaker 1: these issues. For Pride Month, I wanted to focus the
Speaker 1: conversation on the LGBTQIA plus community, and I thought Jonathan
Speaker 1: would be the perfect person to join me. I also
Speaker 1: wanted to bring in an expert, because let's face it,
Speaker 1: I'm not one, so I invited clinical psychologist doctor Jesse
Speaker 1: Menzel to be a part of this. Jesse is the
Speaker 1: vice president of program development for EQUIP, which provides virtual,
Speaker 1: evidence based eating disorder treatment, often to people without access
Speaker 1: to care. I'm an advisor to and investor in EQUIP,
Speaker 1: and I think what they're doing is critically important. So
Speaker 1: we began the conversation with Jesse and how she became
Speaker 1: interested in this kind of work. Jesse, tell me about
Speaker 1: yourself and how you got interested in helping people who
Speaker 1: have a whole panoply of eating disorders.
Speaker 2: Thanks Katie, and thanks so much for having me. I
Speaker 2: want to just take a quick second because I don't
Speaker 2: know if everybody knows what EQUIP is, but we are
Speaker 2: a totally virtual, remote eating disorder program. So we are
Speaker 2: here to bring treatment to people in their homes and
Speaker 2: their lives, with their shows and families, and the idea
Speaker 2: being that, you know, the key I think to solving
Speaker 2: access is to bring treatment to people, and that when
Speaker 2: we can deliver treatment in someone's home with their support system,
Speaker 2: that's what's going to be key. To helping them reach
Speaker 2: lasting recovery. So for a bit of context about me,
Speaker 2: I'm a clinical psychologist and I really was drawn to
Speaker 2: the field of eating disorders because of a really long
Speaker 2: standing interest in body image and particularly the things that
Speaker 2: influence our body image from a cultural socio and a
Speaker 2: cultural lens. The media is a interest of mine. In particular.
Speaker 2: I grew up in a household where I had a
Speaker 2: communications professor for a father, and we would talk about
Speaker 2: the media all the time and how it shapes these
Speaker 2: ideals both appearance and culturally for women, in particular because
Speaker 2: I grew up with three sisters and so that was
Speaker 2: a big conversation in our household, and that's really what
Speaker 2: led me into eating disorders. So I've had the immense
Speaker 2: privilege of being able to work with and be trained
Speaker 2: by some of the foremost experts in the field. And
Speaker 2: it was during my time when I was on faculty
Speaker 2: at UC San Diego that I met EQUIPS co founders
Speaker 2: at Aaron Parks and Christina Saffron, and I really got
Speaker 2: to experience what effective eating disorder treatment was for the
Speaker 2: first time, you know, being able to work with individuals
Speaker 2: of all ages. I worked in our outpatient clinics and
Speaker 2: our inpatient clinics and to finally see that, hey, this
Speaker 2: is how we can actually help people. And that's what
Speaker 2: eventually led me to make the move over to join
Speaker 2: doctor Parks that equip because I was like, here in academia,
Speaker 2: we can only help so many people, and as you said, Katie,
Speaker 2: thirty million people will struggle with eating disorders in their lifetime,
Speaker 2: and so it meant a lot to me to be
Speaker 2: involved in a venture and in a mission that could
Speaker 2: really help take these treatments that work out of academia
Speaker 2: and bring it to people everywhere so that everyone could
Speaker 2: access this treatment.
Speaker 1: And I think Javin is a real example of the
Speaker 1: variety of individuals who are impacted by eating disorders, because
Speaker 1: I do think for so long we had this image
Speaker 1: in our minds about young, sort of white, privileged girls
Speaker 1: suffering from eating disorders, and I think documentaries and movies
Speaker 1: about this issue have perpetuated that stereotype. And before Jonathan
Speaker 1: talks about their situation growing and their sort of distorted
Speaker 1: relationship with food, can you tell us about how eating
Speaker 1: disorders are particularly prevalent in the LGBTQIA plus community.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm so glad you brought this up, Katie,
Speaker 2: because you're right. I think we have this idea that
Speaker 2: there's a certain look to an eating disorder, right, and
Speaker 2: it's that thin, able bodied, cisgender, heterosexual, white woman in
Speaker 2: her twenties, and that is so far from the truth.
Speaker 2: And in fact, it's usually these communities that we think
Speaker 2: of as not getting eating disorders who are actually the
Speaker 2: most at risk. And the LGBTQ plus community in particular
Speaker 2: is I think it's like fourfold higher or increased risk
Speaker 2: for developing eating disorders in large part in general because
Speaker 2: of the increased stress that this community faces and a
Speaker 2: lot of the almost like double appearance standards are double
Speaker 2: appearance ideal that are often held within this community that
Speaker 2: places those increased pressures on them to look a certain way.
Speaker 2: And I think we can go into a lot more
Speaker 2: about what places this community at risk, but this is definitely,
Speaker 2: I think a really important group of individuals to talk
Speaker 2: about when we talk about awareness of who develops an
Speaker 2: eating disorder and who's at risk.
Speaker 1: JVN. I'm going to work hard to get these pronouns right,
Speaker 1: and I'm.
Speaker 3: And all of them you can do.
Speaker 4: Heishi, They there's no slipping with me, honey, because I
Speaker 4: use all of them. So you're you're in the clear.
Speaker 1: So, Jonathan, when you hear Jesse talk about this, does
Speaker 1: this resonate with you in terms of why folks like
Speaker 1: you might be at greater risk?
Speaker 4: It's interesting, actually, I was thinking about how you were
Speaker 4: talking about how documentaries in like the eighties and nineties
Speaker 4: perpetuated this idea that it was like younger white heterosexual
Speaker 4: women who suffer most from eating disorders. And I think
Speaker 4: when I first realized that I was having an issue
Speaker 4: early in my teens, I remember finding literature in the
Speaker 4: library that spoke to the amount of I mean, they
Speaker 4: didn't call it sis hetman because this was a book
Speaker 4: that was written in the seventies, but it talked about
Speaker 4: the underdiagnosis of eating disorders and men. And I think
Speaker 4: that kind of the way that we're speaking to, like, oh,
Speaker 4: you know a lot of those documentaries in coverage was
Speaker 4: perpetuating the idea that it's only something that affects women.
Speaker 4: I think that even this narrative that queer people are
Speaker 4: four times higher, that even perpetuates the idea that like,
Speaker 4: queer people are more at risk. I think when you
Speaker 4: look at straight men, not to like play a violin
Speaker 4: for straight white men, but if you look at straight
Speaker 4: men and you look at the rise of you know,
Speaker 4: performance enhancing drugs, the way that like my feed on
Speaker 4: Instagram is full of sis hetman who are clearly on steroids,
Speaker 4: who are clearly abusing their bodies, who clearly have an
Speaker 4: insanely commonplicated relationship with food. If you look at Hollywood
Speaker 4: leading men who have to get into really intense shape
Speaker 4: for certain roles. When a woman loses weight, it's like
Speaker 4: oh god, x y Z. When a man when you
Speaker 4: have to book up and all of a sudden, you've
Speaker 4: been a certain way for your whole career, and I
Speaker 4: can think of a few right off the top of
Speaker 4: my head. And then all of a sudden, you book
Speaker 4: a superhero movie and you are five times more muscular,
Speaker 4: and your waste is tiny, and you're you know, deltoids
Speaker 4: are capped, you're doing stuff.
Speaker 3: There is a relationship with food that you have. I mean,
Speaker 3: so this idea that.
Speaker 4: It's only queer men and that it's only women, I
Speaker 4: think is not true. And I also think that on
Speaker 4: my podcast, I've learned a lot about how like you
Speaker 4: know science. We have this idea of science and the
Speaker 4: coverage of science as being this like infallible island, and
Speaker 4: that the data that comes up in science is infallible
Speaker 4: or we don't really speak to it. And I'm definitely
Speaker 4: not a Q and non conspiracy girl. Like I'm pro vax,
Speaker 4: I'm pro science. However, science is a reflection of society
Speaker 4: because the questions that we even ask in science are
Speaker 4: based off of the questions that we're asking in society.
Speaker 4: So men, because of toxic masculinity, do not speak to
Speaker 4: when they have an abusive relationship with food, when they
Speaker 4: don't know how to control their food intake, when they
Speaker 4: don't know.
Speaker 3: How to ask for help.
Speaker 4: It's seemed as shameful, it's seen as all you know,
Speaker 4: it challenges that idea that men are stronger xyz. So
Speaker 4: I just think we have to be careful when we're
Speaker 4: talking about eating disorders, especially for like young men who
Speaker 4: absolutely struggle with body ideals. They look at these men's
Speaker 4: fitness covers and they think that's normal.
Speaker 3: I do think that also happens in.
Speaker 4: The queer community, but I really think that it happens
Speaker 4: probably to straight men just as much. But toxic masculinity
Speaker 4: does not allow them to ask for help.
Speaker 1: Jess. I'm curious how you feel about that, because I
Speaker 1: think what JVN Is saying, if I'm correct me, if
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, Jonathan, is that we have to be careful
Speaker 1: about making these generalizations. That it seems to me that
Speaker 1: people having a screwed up relationship with food and their
Speaker 1: bodies and exercise and honestly their shells right their external
Speaker 1: appearance and what they're signaling to society that it knows
Speaker 1: no boundaries.
Speaker 2: Basically, Oh absolutely, I couldn't agree more jav And You're
Speaker 2: exactly right, Like, this is not something This is something
Speaker 2: that touches men, It touches the black community, it touches
Speaker 2: it touches older men and women, it touches young kids.
Speaker 2: I mean, like, there's no escaping this. We are all
Speaker 2: steeped in this culture that is obsessed with the way
Speaker 2: we look, that is obsessed with the way we eat,
Speaker 2: and that pushes all of us to these extremes and
Speaker 2: more importantly sends this message that like we should never
Speaker 2: be satisfied, right, Like it's like, well, yes, we have
Speaker 2: to love the way we look, but also we should
Speaker 2: never stop working on how we look, and we should
Speaker 2: always be thinking about changing our bodies, and that just
Speaker 2: sets people up to perpetually be dissatisfied, to feel like
Speaker 2: they're failing, to feel like they're not living up, and
Speaker 2: to forever be read to the next fad diet or
Speaker 2: the next extreme to try to make themselves feel better.
Speaker 2: It's like this never ending, vicious cycle of constantly searching
Speaker 2: for that perfect look that we can ever find, and
Speaker 2: you're right, it touches all of us.
Speaker 1: And social media obviously has only exacerbated the issue because
Speaker 1: we're constantly accosted by images of perfection or people seeking perfection.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: But I'm curious, Jonathan, if you can talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about your childhood, because I do think and Jesse's
Speaker 1: the experts, she'll correct me if I'm wrong, But I
Speaker 1: do think there are some common threads that connect everyone
Speaker 1: who has struggles in this area. And as I read
Speaker 1: your story and read your book, Jonathan, it seems like
Speaker 1: there were things that happened in your childhood that were triggers.
Speaker 1: Because you seem like a person full of joy, such
Speaker 1: an individual who in many ways loved yourself, but in
Speaker 1: other ways society wouldn't let you be the person you
Speaker 1: wanted to be. Can you just talk about your journey
Speaker 1: a little bit as a young person growing up in Quincy, Illinois.
Speaker 4: I don't know if like loving yourself as ever like,
Speaker 4: and I talk about this a lot in the book.
Speaker 4: I don't think it's like this like finish line that
Speaker 4: you get to and you're like, oh, yes, like I
Speaker 4: did the Loving Myself marathon and now I get to
Speaker 4: put that in a pretty little package and put it
Speaker 4: up on a shelf. But I don't have to deal
Speaker 4: with that again. But I definitely think that, like, you know,
Speaker 4: it took me a long time to like learn to
Speaker 4: love and accept myself, and that, you know, acceptance is
Speaker 4: very much like a few steps forward, a few steps
Speaker 4: back sort of things. So I feel like, you know,
Speaker 4: just to get that out of the way. But yes,
Speaker 4: as a child, I think one of the things that
Speaker 4: sticks out for me the most when I think about
Speaker 4: over the Top and writing over the top. When I
Speaker 4: was going into some of those really formative like core memories,
Speaker 4: it's like those Bowflex commercials, Like it's like nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 4: I remember like it was trying to learn to backflip
Speaker 4: on the trampoline because like all I wanted to be
Speaker 4: was Kim zamescal and there was these Bowflex commercials and
Speaker 4: I I remember looking at my mom and I was like, Mom,
Speaker 4: when am I going to have abdominals? Like I just
Speaker 4: I was like because they kept talking about these abdominals,
Speaker 4: and I was like, all these other people have these
Speaker 4: abdominals on this television screen, but I have not abdominals.
Speaker 4: I have this like softer belly and I don't get it.
Speaker 4: And and I remember, you know, there was a lot
Speaker 4: of conversation strut like you know, some people genetically just
Speaker 4: don't have.
Speaker 3: They won't have visible apps, and I was like, oh
Speaker 3: my god, I'm one of those people. Fuck Like oh yeah.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of like fear around like not looking
Speaker 4: like other young you know, other people my age, and
Speaker 4: then looking at older men and being like, oh my god,
Speaker 4: how am I ever going to look like that?
Speaker 3: I don't look like that now.
Speaker 4: So there's just being a lot of like fear around,
Speaker 4: you know, the way that my body looked. And I
Speaker 4: think that for me, I think a lot of the
Speaker 4: body image was like as I came of age and
Speaker 4: realized that like you're not gonna like it's already heard
Speaker 4: to date as a young gay person in a rural space.
Speaker 4: But then there's all these like really intense like standards
Speaker 4: in the gay world around like what you're meant to
Speaker 4: look like, and so in some spaces it's getting better,
Speaker 4: but that still is like a very like you know,
Speaker 4: fat phobia and racism and transphobia and just being really
Speaker 4: like you know, like in your toxic masculinity and the
Speaker 4: gay community is still a thing.
Speaker 3: Like we weren't exploring those ideas then. But I think
Speaker 3: it's really about validation.
Speaker 4: That's where I was going with that, is that it's
Speaker 4: like you want to look a certain way so that
Speaker 4: people will accept you, because it like hurts when you're
Speaker 4: getting rejected. If you're like do you think I'm cute,
Speaker 4: They're like, no, I think you're a femme, fat ugly,
Speaker 4: and you're like, oh my god, So you gotta get
Speaker 4: cuter and butche it up so people will accept you.
Speaker 4: And I think that also with men, like so the
Speaker 4: body image things, it's really about like rejection, putting yourself
Speaker 4: out there having like whether it's a man rejecting you,
Speaker 4: a woman rejecting you, it just it really is about
Speaker 4: I think it's about rejection and validation and in order
Speaker 4: to be like, oh it hurts me when I get rejected,
Speaker 4: or like it makes me feel stupid when I'm asking
Speaker 4: for validation in whatever kind of way. I think that's
Speaker 4: why men have a harder time speaking to it, because
Speaker 4: that's such a vulnerable thing to say. But I was,
Speaker 4: you know, seeing all of this play out in real time,
Speaker 4: you know, as a kid as well. It's not like
Speaker 4: I just learned this, Like I was observing this as
Speaker 4: a child as well.
Speaker 1: Well. Talk about figuring out your place and the culture
Speaker 1: and how these unrealistic beauty standards, whether it was the
Speaker 1: bowflex commercial or being bullied for the way you looked
Speaker 1: as a kid, or you know, how did that all
Speaker 1: play out in your head in terms of having it
Speaker 1: translate into your relationship with food.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely so when I came of age and realized that, like, oh,
Speaker 4: like maybe people will think you're cuter if you lose weight,
Speaker 4: and they'll be nicer to you if you lose weight.
Speaker 4: So that kind of happened, Like through the very beginning
Speaker 4: of my puberty, I got a lot of comfort from food.
Speaker 4: At the same time, you know, I'm a survivor of
Speaker 4: sexual abuse, so there was like I had a lot
Speaker 4: of lack of control with that. There's a lot of
Speaker 4: confusion with that. You know, couldn't control it, big secret.
Speaker 4: But I know, like people will say, like, oh, like
Speaker 4: you're queer or trans are non binary because you were
Speaker 4: sexually abused as a child. Like people say that a lot,
Speaker 4: like in comments when I speak to being a survivor
Speaker 4: of sexual abuse, which really pisses me off because I
Speaker 4: know for a fact I was humping pillows to Tom
Speaker 4: Selleck and Magnum p I way before I got sexually abused. Okay,
Speaker 4: the reason why this is important is because just like
Speaker 4: eating disorders and just like sexual abuse, you can put
Speaker 4: ten people in the same situation and they're all going
Speaker 4: to have like really different ways of dealing with that trauma.
Speaker 4: So like, just because you're a survival abuse does not
Speaker 4: mean you're going to be gay. I know lots of
Speaker 4: other people who have survived sexual abuse, whether it was
Speaker 4: like a heterod sexual abusive situation or like a homosexual
Speaker 4: sexual abusive situation. But as far as the food part goes,
Speaker 4: like I think because I didn't have control and I
Speaker 4: didn't understand boundaries, and I had this huge secret food
Speaker 4: was this place where I could feel better. I didn't
Speaker 4: understand I was getting this gigantic rush of dopamines, but
Speaker 4: like I was, so I was just like loaded up
Speaker 4: on dopamine and that that was you know, I had control,
Speaker 4: or at least I.
Speaker 3: Thought I did.
Speaker 1: When we come back, JVN talks about how he came
Speaker 1: to better understand and his own non binary identity. We're
Speaker 1: back with JBN and Jesse Manzielkin is.
Speaker 4: So freaking since nineteen ninety two, Get out of here. God,
Speaker 4: other than your hair, other than your hair. But like facially,
Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying, Like this is just gorge, Jesse.
Speaker 1: I mean, you deal with with people all the time
Speaker 1: where they're you know, they're plagued by this food noise,
Speaker 1: if you will, and constantly thinking about it, and I
Speaker 1: think equating some kind of moral goodness or badness right
Speaker 1: with your behavior. And then of course there's the body
Speaker 1: dysmorphia element as well, kind of never feeling satisfied, always
Speaker 1: focusing on the negative, never kind of being happy with
Speaker 1: who you are and what you look like. So hearing
Speaker 1: Jonathan talk about this, does this sound familiar in terms
Speaker 1: of a lot of your other patients.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And I think I really I really appreciate Jonathan,
Speaker 2: how you kind of connect this to emotions and how
Speaker 2: people cope with their emotions, because I think we tend
Speaker 2: to like oversimplify eating disorders sometimes, and that's like one
Speaker 2: of those awful myths I think that is out there, that, right,
Speaker 2: eating disorders are like this vanity issue, but it's only
Speaker 2: about looking a certain way or looking attractive or being attractive,
Speaker 2: and it's it's so much more complex than that. And
Speaker 2: you brought that up exactly, which is that there's this
Speaker 2: really complex connection between our emotions and often like for
Speaker 2: some people, like you said it exactly right, Like for
Speaker 2: some people it's you know, I turned to substances. He
Speaker 2: for some people it's it's food, it's or it's exercise,
Speaker 2: and it's like it's hitting those extremes and using those
Speaker 2: behaviors to try to regulate your emotions in some way,
Speaker 2: especially when those emotions feel completely intolerable. Right, it's so distressing,
Speaker 2: it's so painful, and so logically I think understandably, people
Speaker 2: reach for whatever seems to work for them, and then
Speaker 2: they get trapped into that cycle because it works so
Speaker 2: well in that moment right to numb out or to escape,
Speaker 2: or you get that rush or that euphoria, but then
Speaker 2: ultimately it catches up with you right like it begins
Speaker 2: to cause problems. And so the key is really finding
Speaker 2: what are those other strategies or those ways that I
Speaker 2: can soothe myself, that I can take care of those
Speaker 2: emotions in a way that is much healthier for me.
Speaker 2: And I think, like the marker of recovery is how
Speaker 2: am I doing most of the time, How am I
Speaker 2: dealing with those emotions most of the time as I
Speaker 2: move forward in my life.
Speaker 4: So really for me, like I luckily, and I think
Speaker 4: that was true therapy. I like for me, it's like
Speaker 4: it's no more about if I look cute or not.
Speaker 4: I feel like I look really cute. I feel like
Speaker 4: I actually maybe like developed like a reverse body dysmorphia
Speaker 4: where I actually think I look cuter than I am,
Speaker 4: like through a lot of self work. I think I
Speaker 4: really do. But I think that was like a lot
Speaker 4: of like self work, and like I have like confidence now,
Speaker 4: which is like awesome, but I still have the patterns
Speaker 4: and so like you know, even though I still I
Speaker 4: think I look cuter, but I still yeah, I still
Speaker 4: have those like old patterns, right, Like I caught myself
Speaker 4: like shaming myself almost or like having this narrative that
Speaker 4: like wasn't reflective of reality because I'm used to having
Speaker 4: more disordered eating.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, healing. You're so right, jesse H.
Speaker 4: I don't think I've ever read so much fun on
Speaker 4: a podcast in my life.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad that you said that, because yeah, like
Speaker 2: this difference right between like it's okay to use food
Speaker 2: in a comforting and emotional way or to enjoy the taste,
Speaker 2: right Like, there's nothing in wrong with embracing the fact
Speaker 2: that food can bring us pleasure and enjoyment. It's just
Speaker 2: thinking about why am I using this? And what is
Speaker 2: the extreme and what is the function of why I'm
Speaker 2: using this? And that's like that's part of that key
Speaker 2: to healing and recovering, right doing this because I enjoy
Speaker 2: it and even just because it's going to bring me
Speaker 2: a little bit of soothing and the happiness right now,
Speaker 2: or am I using this to try to like numb
Speaker 2: out or bearing my feelings or avoid whatever is going
Speaker 2: out on for me? And that's really the difference right there.
Speaker 1: I think rigidity often comes with disordered eating because I
Speaker 1: know that as someone who always strive for perfection, if
Speaker 1: I if I somehow ate something that I deemed was bad,
Speaker 1: then I would be so full of shame and so
Speaker 1: angry at myself for not being disciplined that it would
Speaker 1: open the door and open the floodgates and I would
Speaker 1: eat everything because I had this really screwed up attitude
Speaker 1: that I blew it for the day. I'm going to
Speaker 1: have to start over tomorrow. And I think so many
Speaker 1: people have that built in rigidity and they set themselves
Speaker 1: up for failure. I'm curious just you know, Jonathan talked
Speaker 1: about when they were sexually abused as a child, and
Speaker 1: I know they wrote about it in their book about
Speaker 1: being in church and having an older church member, And
Speaker 1: I'm curious how often a traumatic event sets someone down
Speaker 1: this path? But how does that set one up for
Speaker 1: these kinds of problems.
Speaker 2: I mean, absolutely, trauma is a huge risk factor for
Speaker 2: the development of really any mental health problem, definitely an
Speaker 2: eating disorder. We see higher rates of trauma in the
Speaker 2: eating disorder community. And I think Jonathan said it so nicely.
Speaker 2: We all have different ways of coping with trauma. For
Speaker 2: some reason, Some people are just more resilient for whatever reason.
Speaker 2: We're not really sure why, and it isn't even necessarily
Speaker 2: specific to a support system or a family or whatever.
Speaker 2: Developing something like PTSD or depression or anxiety or and
Speaker 2: eating disorder following something as awful as a traumatic event.
Speaker 2: We just don't know why it hits some people and
Speaker 2: not others. And trauma does so many complex things to
Speaker 2: a person. It's a myriad of scenarios that people develop,
Speaker 2: and that constant and self talk, and that shame and
Speaker 2: the anxiety that you carry out of those sorts of situations,
Speaker 2: it sets you up for a lifetype of It could
Speaker 2: be isolation, it could be problematic relationships, complex, very difficult,
Speaker 2: painful emotions and memories that so many of us we
Speaker 2: just aren't equipped to know how to cope with. It's
Speaker 2: this what we call kind of a general risk factor.
Speaker 2: It's not necessarily specific to eating disorders, but it's a
Speaker 2: general risk factor for a lot of mental health problems.
Speaker 2: And so it's important for the community and eating disorders
Speaker 2: because we need to understand that we're going to see
Speaker 2: higher rates of trauma in these individuals and be ready
Speaker 2: to approach our care from that trauma informed lens to
Speaker 2: make these people feel safe, feel heard, feel validated, and
Speaker 2: to give them a really safe space for healing.
Speaker 1: I think Queer Eye has been so instrumental Jonathan and
Speaker 1: helping people shape their views for the importance of being inclusive,
Speaker 1: the fact that there are many different people with different
Speaker 1: views on gender, sexual orientation, sort of who they are.
Speaker 1: And I'm curious things have changed so much in your lifetime.
Speaker 1: Obviously we have a ways to go. How have these
Speaker 1: developments and our understanding of gender and a greater acceptance
Speaker 1: of fluidity, how have they affected you in terms of
Speaker 1: your view of yourself. Do you feel almost liberated in
Speaker 1: a way that you never did before in years past?
Speaker 3: Hmmm, Katie, I don't know. I just don't know.
Speaker 4: I think living in Texas because I've been here for
Speaker 4: three years. On a singular level, like on a personal level,
Speaker 4: I do when I'm at home, when I go out
Speaker 4: to eat in Texas, I don't wear heels because if
Speaker 4: I need to run for my life, like I don't
Speaker 4: want to be in heels. Like I don't dress the
Speaker 4: same in Texas, like even in Austin, Like I just
Speaker 4: I always am looking behind me. I'm always like I
Speaker 4: don't feel safe in a lot of spaces, and.
Speaker 1: So we haven't come as far as I was hoping
Speaker 1: we have.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean in the state of Texas, if I mean,
Speaker 4: if I think if I had a kid like that
Speaker 4: would be enough for a fellow parent to refer me
Speaker 4: to the Child Protective Services for child abuse, because I
Speaker 4: mean Ken Paxton, who's a trial for impeachment in state Texas.
Speaker 4: But Governor Abbitt as well, like they made an executive
Speaker 4: order that incentivized child protective Services to you know, investigate
Speaker 4: any parents who had kids that they that other parents
Speaker 4: thought look too queer at school.
Speaker 3: We're trans you know.
Speaker 4: I mean, it really feels like, you know, personally, and
Speaker 4: I think when I go I call it my capitalist
Speaker 4: guilt and shame room. Like when I look at my purses,
Speaker 4: I'm like wow, Like I have a bunch of cool
Speaker 4: shit that I never thought I could have personally, and
Speaker 4: like there's you know when I think about like that
Speaker 4: I'm friends with Michelle Kwan, or like that I've done
Speaker 4: her hair, like that I have, you know, two best
Speaker 4: selling not like two best selling books in the New
Speaker 4: York Times best seller list, like accomplishments that I personally had.
Speaker 4: I'm like, wow, that's really fucking cool, and I never
Speaker 4: thought that I could do that. But also at the
Speaker 4: same time, like it's not like as you said, like
Speaker 4: it is a severe backlash. Like so I think I
Speaker 4: have come to.
Speaker 3: A personal place where I'm like wow, Like I'm my.
Speaker 4: World is way more open on gender, Like my world
Speaker 4: is more open on like expressing myself. But you know,
Speaker 4: when I go to the state Capitol and I protest,
Speaker 4: and I have like parents, you know, coming up to
Speaker 4: me and showing me pictures of their eight year old
Speaker 4: and their seven year old and their ten year old
Speaker 4: and their twelve year old, and they're talking about like
Speaker 4: we're gonna have to move, like we are worried that
Speaker 4: our kids are getting taken away from us.
Speaker 1: We'll have more with Jonathan Vaness and Jesse Minzel right
Speaker 1: after this. If you want to get smarter every morning
Speaker 1: with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on
Speaker 1: health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our
Speaker 1: daily newsletter Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot
Speaker 1: com and We're back.
Speaker 4: Can we just zoom chat every morning about issues? And like,
Speaker 4: can we just I'm literally having so much fun, like
Speaker 4: can we just like I've never had so much mine?
Speaker 1: You're so smart. I really appreciate hearing you and anyway,
Speaker 1: I just love smart people, and Jesse, you are too.
Speaker 3: I love you guys.
Speaker 1: I think they're a very small percentage of people, Jesse
Speaker 1: would be my guests that don't have some kind of
Speaker 1: body dysmorphia in one shape or form. But I'm curious
Speaker 1: being non binary, Jonathan, how that has impacted your relationship
Speaker 1: with your body and how you have been able to
Speaker 1: navigate that because talk about complex.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I mean I think for me, a lot
Speaker 4: of that was my friend a Loake that taught me
Speaker 4: about non binary identity, and they were feelings that I
Speaker 4: always had, Like I didn't feel like I fit in
Speaker 4: with the boys. I definitely didn't fit in with the girls.
Speaker 4: Like I felt aligned with like masculinity sometimes, I felt
Speaker 4: aligned with femininity sometimes, but the way that like socially
Speaker 4: were meant to function in the binary like, I never
Speaker 4: felt a part of that conversation. I did not have
Speaker 4: an internal sense of like what it was to be
Speaker 4: a man, or like what it is to be a
Speaker 4: man and the way that we like think about it.
Speaker 4: So then when I met a Loak and started you know,
Speaker 4: learning more language around gender identity and also too, frankly
Speaker 4: because like so many people from Queer Eye, like so
Speaker 4: many fans were like, are you trans?
Speaker 3: Are you non binary?
Speaker 4: So I you know, like and I talk about that,
Speaker 4: like I'd have to like hide my heels in my closet,
Speaker 4: I'd have to like hide my crop tops, hide my makeup.
Speaker 4: I didn't want the guy, so I was like bringing
Speaker 4: home to Like I definitely had like a going out
Speaker 4: to bring home a guy me and then like the
Speaker 4: real me. And I always felt like I had to
Speaker 4: like if I really started dating someone, I'd have to
Speaker 4: be like this is how I really look, this is
Speaker 4: how I really am. Like that was actually just like
Speaker 4: me trying to be but can you imagine, which makes
Speaker 4: me laugh a lot now. So but anyway, once I
Speaker 4: understood the language, I was like, oh, that is totally
Speaker 4: who I am, like non binary, gender non conforming, Like
Speaker 4: that is totally what I am and what I've always been.
Speaker 4: And so that just really resonated. And I think in
Speaker 4: my second book, Love That Story, I talk about how
Speaker 4: like I think that dichotomy of like and the pain
Speaker 4: associated with like not being the fullness of who I am,
Speaker 4: like in terms of like dating, like once your sexual
Speaker 4: partner number gets to have like a comma in it,
Speaker 4: which mind died, so it became much more about, like,
Speaker 4: I didn't care about other people validation because I'd already
Speaker 4: got like I knew that that sexual validation was kind
Speaker 4: of empty. So I realized it was way more important
Speaker 4: for me to be true to myself because that was
Speaker 4: actually much more fulfilling and much more real and like
Speaker 4: rewarding for me than to try to, like, you know,
Speaker 4: compartmentalize my life. So once that, once my relationship to
Speaker 4: my sexual like self healed more, I was able to
Speaker 4: like be, you know, more fully who I am.
Speaker 1: Jesse. I love that EQUIP is so aware of lgbt
Speaker 1: qia plus individuals and that you are all trained on
Speaker 1: gender affirming care. How did you observe the need for
Speaker 1: that or that there was a vacuum out there for
Speaker 1: that kind of treatment.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you asked about that, Katie. This is
Speaker 2: something we are so proud of that EQUIP and at EQUIP,
Speaker 2: about fifteen percent of our patients identify within the lgbtqia
Speaker 2: plus community, and so we are working with a higher
Speaker 2: proportion of individuals than most treatment programs ever see in
Speaker 2: the eating disorder community. And part of the access issue is,
Speaker 2: I think, being able to see yourself in the treatment
Speaker 2: settings and the treatment programs and to feel welcome in
Speaker 2: those treatment settings and treatment programs. And so in my
Speaker 2: role at EQUIP, what I've had the chance to do
Speaker 2: is work with experts in the lgbtqia plus community, to
Speaker 2: work with people who are part of the lgbtqia plus community,
Speaker 2: and thinking about how we can make our treatment program
Speaker 2: a place that is welcoming and inclusive of these individuals
Speaker 2: from start to finish. And so our program includes looking
Speaker 2: at do these individuals see themselves on our website, the
Speaker 2: questions that we ask, the language we use on our
Speaker 2: intake forms. We've comed through all of that to make
Speaker 2: sure that it is accepting of gender expansive individuals and experiences.
Speaker 2: And we think it is crucial that eating disorder treatment
Speaker 2: and someone's gender and sexual gender identity and sexual orientation,
Speaker 2: that these two things the integral, not a part and
Speaker 2: not separate. It's not like we can take someone who
Speaker 2: is who is transgender and say like, well, we're going
Speaker 2: to like set that part of you aside for a second,
Speaker 2: and we're just going to talk about your eating disorder,
Speaker 2: and we'll get to that later. The whole philosophy behind
Speaker 2: our Grace program, it's a gender responsive and affirming care
Speaker 2: at EQUIP. The idea is that you have to talk
Speaker 2: about both of these things at the same time because
Speaker 2: they're often so intertwined. You know, you talk about complex
Speaker 2: relationships with someone's body, Katie, and like talk about someone
Speaker 2: who feels like they were born in the wrong body,
Speaker 2: someone who's outside physical attributes do not match how they
Speaker 2: see themselves inside. We call that gender dysphoria. And not
Speaker 2: everyone in the trans community experiences gender dysphoria, but for
Speaker 2: those that do, it is so painful, it causes so
Speaker 2: much distressed and often the eating disorder functions as a
Speaker 2: way to try to bring their physical self more closely
Speaker 2: in line with their identity and how they see themselves,
Speaker 2: or to prevent themselves from getting even further from that.
Speaker 2: So an eating disorder might serve as a way for
Speaker 2: someone to delay the onset of puberty so that they
Speaker 2: don't have to develop secondary sex characteristics, or an eating
Speaker 2: disorder might be a way of helping somebody feel more
Speaker 2: fem or more mask like in their build and their
Speaker 2: physique and their frame. And so we can't treat an
Speaker 2: eating disorder in someone who is trans or non binary
Speaker 2: without also talking about how that eating disorder relates to
Speaker 2: their gender identity. And so what our training and what
Speaker 2: this program includes is like, is it heads to our
Speaker 2: clinicians that you need to be educated and the issues
Speaker 2: that are specific to this community, to be affirming of
Speaker 2: that identity, to understand how that is relating to their
Speaker 2: eating disorder, and we need to incorporate that throughout the
Speaker 2: entire treatment journey at EQUIPPED.
Speaker 1: What do you think about that, JVM, when you hear
Speaker 1: about that approach, does that resonate with you?
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm just over here snapping, clapping, I'm upset so
Speaker 4: that the great acronym. I love a good acronym. I
Speaker 4: am like, I'm all about it. Snap, It's like you
Speaker 4: better work. I'm obsessed. Go Jesse, go CLI, Like, where
Speaker 4: do I sign up?
Speaker 3: I need it?
Speaker 1: You all can talk about that after the podcast. But
Speaker 1: to bring it full circle and what JBN was saying originally,
Speaker 1: Jesse that there's so many people who don't get help.
Speaker 1: I sort of feel like, when people need help, people
Speaker 1: need help, let's look at them as individuals. And I'm
Speaker 1: curious how you can develop something that will reach some
Speaker 1: of these folks who are too talk about shame, talk
Speaker 1: about expectations, too embarrassed to reach out for help.
Speaker 2: I think voices like Jonathan's and there are a bunch
Speaker 2: of other people who have come out about their own
Speaker 2: struggles with disordered eating men who have started to talk
Speaker 2: about the eating disorders that they've had and that they've
Speaker 2: struggled with. I think there are more men now talking
Speaker 2: about the extreme pressures that exist for men when it
Speaker 2: comes to their physical looks and how they treat their
Speaker 2: bodies and what they do with their bodies. But this
Speaker 2: is I think one of the beauties of virtual treatment,
Speaker 2: because I think part of the idea here is that
Speaker 2: when you can reach out for help by going onto
Speaker 2: the internet, by using your computer, by using your phone,
Speaker 2: it takes away some of those barriers that you have
Speaker 2: to otherwise face and going out and asking for help,
Speaker 2: of having to make phone calls to go physically walk
Speaker 2: into a clinic or walk into a treatment program. I
Speaker 2: think there are a lot of people who still don't
Speaker 2: feel like they can do that or maybe know they
Speaker 2: need it, but still feel ashamed of having to do it.
Speaker 2: And so that's I think the beauty of bringing treatment
Speaker 2: at home is because I think that helps solve the
Speaker 2: access problem. We can take away some of the shame
Speaker 2: and the stigma associated with mental health because you can
Speaker 2: do this right from the comfort of your own home.
Speaker 2: And so hopefully we'll continue to advance this and move
Speaker 2: this forward, but we need to have more creative ways
Speaker 2: to help these people right now.
Speaker 1: And Jvan, I feel like you have made a lot
Speaker 1: of progress in terms of a understanding deeply, at a
Speaker 1: very deep level, so many of these issues, but you
Speaker 1: remain a work in progress like all of us. And
Speaker 1: I'm curious for people who might be listening to this,
Speaker 1: who really might be struggling with any kind of self acceptance,
Speaker 1: what are some of the tools that can help them
Speaker 1: on this journey, because I do feel like you're so wise.
Speaker 3: Thanks.
Speaker 4: I'm like, thank you. Two things came up for me
Speaker 4: with that question. Okay, So basically, there are so many
Speaker 4: modalities of healing, like the health of any size community,
Speaker 4: and some of the modalities have certain guidelines that other
Speaker 4: ones don't. And it doesn't mean that some are bad,
Speaker 4: some are this. It's just there's so many different ways
Speaker 4: of healing. But one thing that I thought was really
Speaker 4: interesting about Hayes, or like the health of any size
Speaker 4: community that learned about, it's like, first of all, you're gorgeous,
Speaker 4: you're hot. It doesn't matter what you look like on
Speaker 4: the outside. So, and you're beautiful and worthy of love
Speaker 4: and acceptance and celebration. But it's like, you're not the
Speaker 4: voice in your head, Like you're the observer of the
Speaker 4: voice in your head. So once you can stop identifying
Speaker 4: with like, oh my god, I don't feel cute about myself,
Speaker 4: I feel horrible or whatever the fee whatever that voice
Speaker 4: is saying, girl, that's not you. You're observing that voice.
Speaker 4: That's where the piece is. So it doesn't matter how
Speaker 4: you look it like, and it doesn't like so piece
Speaker 4: is available to us at all times.
Speaker 3: And that is true.
Speaker 4: It might not feel true, but it is because that's
Speaker 4: I think, really what like Christians and Buddhists and everybody's
Speaker 4: talking about, like that relationship to the like it's really
Speaker 4: that like your connection to either your spirituality or higher power,
Speaker 4: you know, the universe, whatever that's within you at all
Speaker 4: times so we just disconnect from the voice in our
Speaker 4: head and we connect to that like expansiveness. That's what
Speaker 4: I would say to you for the end of your
Speaker 4: gorgeous podcast. That's what I would say.
Speaker 1: Anyway. I love you, I love talking to you. You
Speaker 1: kill me Jesse before we go. I mean, obviously people
Speaker 1: are so unhappy with the world and with themselves. How
Speaker 1: do you try to get people to, I don't know,
Speaker 1: give themselves a break.
Speaker 2: I think that's like the million dollar question, right Katie,
Speaker 2: And I think Javian you said it so well. It's
Speaker 2: there is always this potential within you, I think to
Speaker 2: shut out that noise, to set those things aside. It's
Speaker 2: so hard to do. But I think what I really
Speaker 2: encourage people to do is you need to look inside
Speaker 2: yourself and figure out what is important to me, What
Speaker 2: are my values, what is my truth? Like what speaks
Speaker 2: to me? And I think that the more that we
Speaker 2: can we can't do a lot to sort of control
Speaker 2: what happens in our brain, but what we can control
Speaker 2: a lot is our behavior and our actions that we take.
Speaker 2: And I think reminding ourselves of like what is that
Speaker 2: that is going to bring me happiness? What is it
Speaker 2: that is going to bring me satisfaction and fulfillment in
Speaker 2: my life, and having to make this conscious effort to
Speaker 2: bring yourself back to that all the time, and to
Speaker 2: make sure that your behaviors and what you're doing and
Speaker 2: how you're acting is in line with what is important
Speaker 2: to you and that brings you fulfillment and value in
Speaker 2: your life.
Speaker 1: So it can be and ways big and small, but
Speaker 1: kind of like getting out of your own head and
Speaker 1: seeing how you can change someone else's day or life
Speaker 1: or experience.
Speaker 2: And that's I think by finding what is it that's
Speaker 2: truly important, right and that might not be something inside you,
Speaker 2: it might be outside of you. It might be your community,
Speaker 2: helping others, giving back, and so making sure your actions
Speaker 2: are in surface of those things. Those are the things
Speaker 2: we can control and bring ourselves.
Speaker 1: Back to and I think you both are doing that
Speaker 1: every single day. So thank you Jesse, and thank you JVN.
Speaker 1: It's such a treat to see you again. And I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed this conversation. I did too.
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me, Katie. I'm just like always obsessed
Speaker 4: with you and Jesse.
Speaker 3: You're amazing, Oh, thank you baking this opportunity.
Speaker 2: This is amazing to talk about both of you today.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. By the way, if you have
Speaker 1: a question for me, a subject you want us to cover,
Speaker 1: or you want to share your thoughts about how you
Speaker 1: navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a
Speaker 1: short message at six h nine five point two five
Speaker 1: to five oh five, or you can send me a
Speaker 1: DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you.
Speaker 1: Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Meet Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz.
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana
Speaker 1: Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell,
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