1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question. 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: I love Jonathan Vaness. You probably know him from the 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Netflix hit Queer Eye, and maybe you've sought out his 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: hair care advice or seeing him doing backflips on Instagram. 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: He is hilarious, effusive, and really smart, but it hasn't 6 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: always been easy. In his twenty nineteen memoir Over the Top, 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: A Raw Journey to Self Love, Jonathan detailed his tumultuous childhood, 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: coming to understand his gender identity and his experience with 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: body dysmorphia and disordered eating. I want to let our 10 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: listeners know that this episode contains some sensitive subject matter, 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: including eating disorders and sexual assault. It's an important conversation, 12 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: but it might be triggering for some people. In fact, 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: did you know eating disorders affect almost thirty million Americans? 14 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: That's right, thirty million people of all ages, gender shapes, 15 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: and sexual orientations. In my twenties, I actually had bulimia, 16 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: and in the years since, I've tried to better understand 17 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: these issues. For Pride Month, I wanted to focus the 18 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: conversation on the LGBTQIA plus community, and I thought Jonathan 19 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: would be the perfect person to join me. I also 20 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: wanted to bring in an expert, because let's face it, 21 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: I'm not one, so I invited clinical psychologist doctor Jesse 22 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: Menzel to be a part of this. Jesse is the 23 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: vice president of program development for EQUIP, which provides virtual, 24 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: evidence based eating disorder treatment, often to people without access 25 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: to care. I'm an advisor to and investor in EQUIP, 26 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: and I think what they're doing is critically important. So 27 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: we began the conversation with Jesse and how she became 28 00:01:54,320 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: interested in this kind of work. Jesse, tell me about 29 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: yourself and how you got interested in helping people who 30 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: have a whole panoply of eating disorders. 31 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 2: Thanks Katie, and thanks so much for having me. I 32 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 2: want to just take a quick second because I don't 33 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: know if everybody knows what EQUIP is, but we are 34 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 2: a totally virtual, remote eating disorder program. So we are 35 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: here to bring treatment to people in their homes and 36 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: their lives, with their shows and families, and the idea 37 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 2: being that, you know, the key I think to solving 38 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 2: access is to bring treatment to people, and that when 39 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: we can deliver treatment in someone's home with their support system, 40 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: that's what's going to be key. To helping them reach 41 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: lasting recovery. So for a bit of context about me, 42 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 2: I'm a clinical psychologist and I really was drawn to 43 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 2: the field of eating disorders because of a really long 44 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 2: standing interest in body image and particularly the things that 45 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 2: influence our body image from a cultural socio and a 46 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 2: cultural lens. The media is a interest of mine. In particular. 47 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: I grew up in a household where I had a 48 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 2: communications professor for a father, and we would talk about 49 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 2: the media all the time and how it shapes these 50 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 2: ideals both appearance and culturally for women, in particular because 51 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 2: I grew up with three sisters and so that was 52 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: a big conversation in our household, and that's really what 53 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 2: led me into eating disorders. So I've had the immense 54 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: privilege of being able to work with and be trained 55 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 2: by some of the foremost experts in the field. And 56 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: it was during my time when I was on faculty 57 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 2: at UC San Diego that I met EQUIPS co founders 58 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: at Aaron Parks and Christina Saffron, and I really got 59 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: to experience what effective eating disorder treatment was for the 60 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: first time, you know, being able to work with individuals 61 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: of all ages. I worked in our outpatient clinics and 62 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: our inpatient clinics and to finally see that, hey, this 63 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: is how we can actually help people. And that's what 64 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 2: eventually led me to make the move over to join 65 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: doctor Parks that equip because I was like, here in academia, 66 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: we can only help so many people, and as you said, Katie, 67 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: thirty million people will struggle with eating disorders in their lifetime, 68 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: and so it meant a lot to me to be 69 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: involved in a venture and in a mission that could 70 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 2: really help take these treatments that work out of academia 71 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: and bring it to people everywhere so that everyone could 72 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 2: access this treatment. 73 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: And I think Javin is a real example of the 74 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: variety of individuals who are impacted by eating disorders, because 75 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 1: I do think for so long we had this image 76 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: in our minds about young, sort of white, privileged girls 77 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: suffering from eating disorders, and I think documentaries and movies 78 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: about this issue have perpetuated that stereotype. And before Jonathan 79 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: talks about their situation growing and their sort of distorted 80 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: relationship with food, can you tell us about how eating 81 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: disorders are particularly prevalent in the LGBTQIA plus community. 82 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm so glad you brought this up, Katie, 83 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 2: because you're right. I think we have this idea that 84 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: there's a certain look to an eating disorder, right, and 85 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 2: it's that thin, able bodied, cisgender, heterosexual, white woman in 86 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: her twenties, and that is so far from the truth. 87 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 2: And in fact, it's usually these communities that we think 88 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: of as not getting eating disorders who are actually the 89 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 2: most at risk. And the LGBTQ plus community in particular 90 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 2: is I think it's like fourfold higher or increased risk 91 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,799 Speaker 2: for developing eating disorders in large part in general because 92 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 2: of the increased stress that this community faces and a 93 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: lot of the almost like double appearance standards are double 94 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 2: appearance ideal that are often held within this community that 95 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: places those increased pressures on them to look a certain way. 96 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 2: And I think we can go into a lot more 97 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: about what places this community at risk, but this is definitely, 98 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: I think a really important group of individuals to talk 99 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: about when we talk about awareness of who develops an 100 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 2: eating disorder and who's at risk. 101 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: JVN. I'm going to work hard to get these pronouns right, 102 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: and I'm. 103 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 3: And all of them you can do. 104 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 4: Heishi, They there's no slipping with me, honey, because I 105 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 4: use all of them. So you're you're in the clear. 106 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: So, Jonathan, when you hear Jesse talk about this, does 107 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: this resonate with you in terms of why folks like 108 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,239 Speaker 1: you might be at greater risk? 109 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 4: It's interesting, actually, I was thinking about how you were 110 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 4: talking about how documentaries in like the eighties and nineties 111 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 4: perpetuated this idea that it was like younger white heterosexual 112 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 4: women who suffer most from eating disorders. And I think 113 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 4: when I first realized that I was having an issue 114 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 4: early in my teens, I remember finding literature in the 115 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 4: library that spoke to the amount of I mean, they 116 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 4: didn't call it sis hetman because this was a book 117 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 4: that was written in the seventies, but it talked about 118 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 4: the underdiagnosis of eating disorders and men. And I think 119 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 4: that kind of the way that we're speaking to, like, oh, 120 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 4: you know a lot of those documentaries in coverage was 121 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 4: perpetuating the idea that it's only something that affects women. 122 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 4: I think that even this narrative that queer people are 123 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 4: four times higher, that even perpetuates the idea that like, 124 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 4: queer people are more at risk. I think when you 125 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,239 Speaker 4: look at straight men, not to like play a violin 126 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 4: for straight white men, but if you look at straight 127 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 4: men and you look at the rise of you know, 128 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 4: performance enhancing drugs, the way that like my feed on 129 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 4: Instagram is full of sis hetman who are clearly on steroids, 130 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 4: who are clearly abusing their bodies, who clearly have an 131 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 4: insanely commonplicated relationship with food. If you look at Hollywood 132 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 4: leading men who have to get into really intense shape 133 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 4: for certain roles. When a woman loses weight, it's like 134 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 4: oh god, x y Z. When a man when you 135 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 4: have to book up and all of a sudden, you've 136 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 4: been a certain way for your whole career, and I 137 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 4: can think of a few right off the top of 138 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 4: my head. And then all of a sudden, you book 139 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 4: a superhero movie and you are five times more muscular, 140 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 4: and your waste is tiny, and you're you know, deltoids 141 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 4: are capped, you're doing stuff. 142 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 3: There is a relationship with food that you have. I mean, 143 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: so this idea that. 144 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 4: It's only queer men and that it's only women, I 145 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 4: think is not true. And I also think that on 146 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 4: my podcast, I've learned a lot about how like you 147 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 4: know science. We have this idea of science and the 148 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 4: coverage of science as being this like infallible island, and 149 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 4: that the data that comes up in science is infallible 150 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 4: or we don't really speak to it. And I'm definitely 151 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 4: not a Q and non conspiracy girl. Like I'm pro vax, 152 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 4: I'm pro science. However, science is a reflection of society 153 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 4: because the questions that we even ask in science are 154 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 4: based off of the questions that we're asking in society. 155 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 4: So men, because of toxic masculinity, do not speak to 156 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 4: when they have an abusive relationship with food, when they 157 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 4: don't know how to control their food intake, when they 158 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 4: don't know. 159 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 3: How to ask for help. 160 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 4: It's seemed as shameful, it's seen as all you know, 161 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 4: it challenges that idea that men are stronger xyz. So 162 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 4: I just think we have to be careful when we're 163 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 4: talking about eating disorders, especially for like young men who 164 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 4: absolutely struggle with body ideals. They look at these men's 165 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 4: fitness covers and they think that's normal. 166 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 3: I do think that also happens in. 167 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 4: The queer community, but I really think that it happens 168 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 4: probably to straight men just as much. But toxic masculinity 169 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 4: does not allow them to ask for help. 170 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: Jess. I'm curious how you feel about that, because I 171 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 1: think what JVN Is saying, if I'm correct me, if 172 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, Jonathan, is that we have to be careful 173 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: about making these generalizations. That it seems to me that 174 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: people having a screwed up relationship with food and their 175 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: bodies and exercise and honestly their shells right their external 176 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: appearance and what they're signaling to society that it knows 177 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: no boundaries. 178 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: Basically, Oh absolutely, I couldn't agree more jav And You're 179 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 2: exactly right, Like, this is not something This is something 180 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 2: that touches men, It touches the black community, it touches 181 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: it touches older men and women, it touches young kids. 182 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: I mean, like, there's no escaping this. We are all 183 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: steeped in this culture that is obsessed with the way 184 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 2: we look, that is obsessed with the way we eat, 185 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 2: and that pushes all of us to these extremes and 186 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 2: more importantly sends this message that like we should never 187 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 2: be satisfied, right, Like it's like, well, yes, we have 188 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: to love the way we look, but also we should 189 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: never stop working on how we look, and we should 190 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: always be thinking about changing our bodies, and that just 191 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 2: sets people up to perpetually be dissatisfied, to feel like 192 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 2: they're failing, to feel like they're not living up, and 193 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: to forever be read to the next fad diet or 194 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 2: the next extreme to try to make themselves feel better. 195 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 2: It's like this never ending, vicious cycle of constantly searching 196 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 2: for that perfect look that we can ever find, and 197 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 2: you're right, it touches all of us. 198 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: And social media obviously has only exacerbated the issue because 199 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: we're constantly accosted by images of perfection or people seeking perfection. 200 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 3: Right. 201 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: But I'm curious, Jonathan, if you can talk a little 202 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: bit about your childhood, because I do think and Jesse's 203 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: the experts, she'll correct me if I'm wrong, But I 204 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: do think there are some common threads that connect everyone 205 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: who has struggles in this area. And as I read 206 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: your story and read your book, Jonathan, it seems like 207 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: there were things that happened in your childhood that were triggers. 208 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: Because you seem like a person full of joy, such 209 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: an individual who in many ways loved yourself, but in 210 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: other ways society wouldn't let you be the person you 211 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: wanted to be. Can you just talk about your journey 212 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: a little bit as a young person growing up in Quincy, Illinois. 213 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 4: I don't know if like loving yourself as ever like, 214 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 4: and I talk about this a lot in the book. 215 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 4: I don't think it's like this like finish line that 216 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 4: you get to and you're like, oh, yes, like I 217 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 4: did the Loving Myself marathon and now I get to 218 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 4: put that in a pretty little package and put it 219 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 4: up on a shelf. But I don't have to deal 220 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 4: with that again. But I definitely think that, like, you know, 221 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 4: it took me a long time to like learn to 222 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 4: love and accept myself, and that, you know, acceptance is 223 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 4: very much like a few steps forward, a few steps 224 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 4: back sort of things. So I feel like, you know, 225 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 4: just to get that out of the way. But yes, 226 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 4: as a child, I think one of the things that 227 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 4: sticks out for me the most when I think about 228 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 4: over the Top and writing over the top. When I 229 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 4: was going into some of those really formative like core memories, 230 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 4: it's like those Bowflex commercials, Like it's like nineteen ninety one. 231 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 4: I remember like it was trying to learn to backflip 232 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 4: on the trampoline because like all I wanted to be 233 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 4: was Kim zamescal and there was these Bowflex commercials and 234 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 4: I I remember looking at my mom and I was like, Mom, 235 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 4: when am I going to have abdominals? Like I just 236 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 4: I was like because they kept talking about these abdominals, 237 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 4: and I was like, all these other people have these 238 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 4: abdominals on this television screen, but I have not abdominals. 239 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 4: I have this like softer belly and I don't get it. 240 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 4: And and I remember, you know, there was a lot 241 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 4: of conversation strut like you know, some people genetically just 242 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 4: don't have. 243 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 3: They won't have visible apps, and I was like, oh 244 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 3: my god, I'm one of those people. Fuck Like oh yeah. 245 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 4: There's a lot of like fear around like not looking 246 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 4: like other young you know, other people my age, and 247 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 4: then looking at older men and being like, oh my god, 248 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 4: how am I ever going to look like that? 249 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 3: I don't look like that now. 250 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 4: So there's just being a lot of like fear around, 251 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 4: you know, the way that my body looked. And I 252 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 4: think that for me, I think a lot of the 253 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 4: body image was like as I came of age and 254 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,719 Speaker 4: realized that like you're not gonna like it's already heard 255 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 4: to date as a young gay person in a rural space. 256 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 4: But then there's all these like really intense like standards 257 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 4: in the gay world around like what you're meant to 258 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 4: look like, and so in some spaces it's getting better, 259 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 4: but that still is like a very like you know, 260 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 4: fat phobia and racism and transphobia and just being really 261 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 4: like you know, like in your toxic masculinity and the 262 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 4: gay community is still a thing. 263 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: Like we weren't exploring those ideas then. But I think 264 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 3: it's really about validation. 265 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 4: That's where I was going with that, is that it's 266 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 4: like you want to look a certain way so that 267 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 4: people will accept you, because it like hurts when you're 268 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 4: getting rejected. If you're like do you think I'm cute, 269 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 4: They're like, no, I think you're a femme, fat ugly, 270 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 4: and you're like, oh my god, So you gotta get 271 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 4: cuter and butche it up so people will accept you. 272 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 4: And I think that also with men, like so the 273 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 4: body image things, it's really about like rejection, putting yourself 274 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 4: out there having like whether it's a man rejecting you, 275 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 4: a woman rejecting you, it just it really is about 276 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 4: I think it's about rejection and validation and in order 277 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 4: to be like, oh it hurts me when I get rejected, 278 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 4: or like it makes me feel stupid when I'm asking 279 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 4: for validation in whatever kind of way. I think that's 280 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 4: why men have a harder time speaking to it, because 281 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 4: that's such a vulnerable thing to say. But I was, 282 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 4: you know, seeing all of this play out in real time, 283 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 4: you know, as a kid as well. It's not like 284 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 4: I just learned this, Like I was observing this as 285 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 4: a child as well. 286 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: Well. Talk about figuring out your place and the culture 287 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: and how these unrealistic beauty standards, whether it was the 288 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: bowflex commercial or being bullied for the way you looked 289 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: as a kid, or you know, how did that all 290 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: play out in your head in terms of having it 291 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: translate into your relationship with food. 292 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely so when I came of age and realized that, like, oh, 293 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 4: like maybe people will think you're cuter if you lose weight, 294 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 4: and they'll be nicer to you if you lose weight. 295 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 4: So that kind of happened, Like through the very beginning 296 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 4: of my puberty, I got a lot of comfort from food. 297 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 4: At the same time, you know, I'm a survivor of 298 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 4: sexual abuse, so there was like I had a lot 299 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 4: of lack of control with that. There's a lot of 300 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 4: confusion with that. You know, couldn't control it, big secret. 301 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 4: But I know, like people will say, like, oh, like 302 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 4: you're queer or trans are non binary because you were 303 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 4: sexually abused as a child. Like people say that a lot, 304 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 4: like in comments when I speak to being a survivor 305 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 4: of sexual abuse, which really pisses me off because I 306 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 4: know for a fact I was humping pillows to Tom 307 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 4: Selleck and Magnum p I way before I got sexually abused. Okay, 308 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 4: the reason why this is important is because just like 309 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 4: eating disorders and just like sexual abuse, you can put 310 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 4: ten people in the same situation and they're all going 311 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 4: to have like really different ways of dealing with that trauma. 312 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 4: So like, just because you're a survival abuse does not 313 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 4: mean you're going to be gay. I know lots of 314 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 4: other people who have survived sexual abuse, whether it was 315 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 4: like a heterod sexual abusive situation or like a homosexual 316 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 4: sexual abusive situation. But as far as the food part goes, 317 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 4: like I think because I didn't have control and I 318 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 4: didn't understand boundaries, and I had this huge secret food 319 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 4: was this place where I could feel better. I didn't 320 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 4: understand I was getting this gigantic rush of dopamines, but 321 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 4: like I was, so I was just like loaded up 322 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 4: on dopamine and that that was you know, I had control, 323 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 4: or at least I. 324 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 3: Thought I did. 325 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: When we come back, JVN talks about how he came 326 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: to better understand and his own non binary identity. We're 327 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: back with JBN and Jesse Manzielkin is. 328 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 4: So freaking since nineteen ninety two, Get out of here. God, 329 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 4: other than your hair, other than your hair. But like facially, 330 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying, Like this is just gorge, Jesse. 331 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: I mean, you deal with with people all the time 332 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: where they're you know, they're plagued by this food noise, 333 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:41,479 Speaker 1: if you will, and constantly thinking about it, and I 334 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: think equating some kind of moral goodness or badness right 335 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: with your behavior. And then of course there's the body 336 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: dysmorphia element as well, kind of never feeling satisfied, always 337 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: focusing on the negative, never kind of being happy with 338 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: who you are and what you look like. So hearing 339 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: Jonathan talk about this, does this sound familiar in terms 340 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: of a lot of your other patients. 341 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And I think I really I really appreciate Jonathan, 342 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 2: how you kind of connect this to emotions and how 343 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 2: people cope with their emotions, because I think we tend 344 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 2: to like oversimplify eating disorders sometimes, and that's like one 345 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 2: of those awful myths I think that is out there, that, right, 346 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 2: eating disorders are like this vanity issue, but it's only 347 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: about looking a certain way or looking attractive or being attractive, 348 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 2: and it's it's so much more complex than that. And 349 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: you brought that up exactly, which is that there's this 350 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 2: really complex connection between our emotions and often like for 351 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 2: some people, like you said it exactly right, Like for 352 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: some people it's you know, I turned to substances. He 353 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 2: for some people it's it's food, it's or it's exercise, 354 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: and it's like it's hitting those extremes and using those 355 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 2: behaviors to try to regulate your emotions in some way, 356 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 2: especially when those emotions feel completely intolerable. Right, it's so distressing, 357 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 2: it's so painful, and so logically I think understandably, people 358 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 2: reach for whatever seems to work for them, and then 359 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 2: they get trapped into that cycle because it works so 360 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 2: well in that moment right to numb out or to escape, 361 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 2: or you get that rush or that euphoria, but then 362 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 2: ultimately it catches up with you right like it begins 363 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 2: to cause problems. And so the key is really finding 364 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 2: what are those other strategies or those ways that I 365 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 2: can soothe myself, that I can take care of those 366 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 2: emotions in a way that is much healthier for me. 367 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: And I think, like the marker of recovery is how 368 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 2: am I doing most of the time, How am I 369 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 2: dealing with those emotions most of the time as I 370 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 2: move forward in my life. 371 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 4: So really for me, like I luckily, and I think 372 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 4: that was true therapy. I like for me, it's like 373 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 4: it's no more about if I look cute or not. 374 00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 4: I feel like I look really cute. I feel like 375 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 4: I actually maybe like developed like a reverse body dysmorphia 376 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 4: where I actually think I look cuter than I am, 377 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 4: like through a lot of self work. I think I 378 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 4: really do. But I think that was like a lot 379 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 4: of like self work, and like I have like confidence now, 380 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 4: which is like awesome, but I still have the patterns 381 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 4: and so like you know, even though I still I 382 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 4: think I look cuter, but I still yeah, I still 383 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 4: have those like old patterns, right, Like I caught myself 384 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 4: like shaming myself almost or like having this narrative that 385 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 4: like wasn't reflective of reality because I'm used to having 386 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 4: more disordered eating. 387 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 3: So, yeah, healing. You're so right, jesse H. 388 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 4: I don't think I've ever read so much fun on 389 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 4: a podcast in my life. 390 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad that you said that, because yeah, like 391 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 2: this difference right between like it's okay to use food 392 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 2: in a comforting and emotional way or to enjoy the taste, 393 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 2: right Like, there's nothing in wrong with embracing the fact 394 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 2: that food can bring us pleasure and enjoyment. It's just 395 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 2: thinking about why am I using this? And what is 396 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 2: the extreme and what is the function of why I'm 397 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 2: using this? And that's like that's part of that key 398 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 2: to healing and recovering, right doing this because I enjoy 399 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 2: it and even just because it's going to bring me 400 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 2: a little bit of soothing and the happiness right now, 401 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: or am I using this to try to like numb 402 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 2: out or bearing my feelings or avoid whatever is going 403 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 2: out on for me? And that's really the difference right there. 404 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,479 Speaker 1: I think rigidity often comes with disordered eating because I 405 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 1: know that as someone who always strive for perfection, if 406 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: I if I somehow ate something that I deemed was bad, 407 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: then I would be so full of shame and so 408 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: angry at myself for not being disciplined that it would 409 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: open the door and open the floodgates and I would 410 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: eat everything because I had this really screwed up attitude 411 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: that I blew it for the day. I'm going to 412 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: have to start over tomorrow. And I think so many 413 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: people have that built in rigidity and they set themselves 414 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: up for failure. I'm curious just you know, Jonathan talked 415 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: about when they were sexually abused as a child, and 416 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: I know they wrote about it in their book about 417 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: being in church and having an older church member, And 418 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: I'm curious how often a traumatic event sets someone down 419 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: this path? But how does that set one up for 420 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: these kinds of problems. 421 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,239 Speaker 2: I mean, absolutely, trauma is a huge risk factor for 422 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,479 Speaker 2: the development of really any mental health problem, definitely an 423 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: eating disorder. We see higher rates of trauma in the 424 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: eating disorder community. And I think Jonathan said it so nicely. 425 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 2: We all have different ways of coping with trauma. For 426 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: some reason, Some people are just more resilient for whatever reason. 427 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 2: We're not really sure why, and it isn't even necessarily 428 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 2: specific to a support system or a family or whatever. 429 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 2: Developing something like PTSD or depression or anxiety or and 430 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 2: eating disorder following something as awful as a traumatic event. 431 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: We just don't know why it hits some people and 432 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 2: not others. And trauma does so many complex things to 433 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 2: a person. It's a myriad of scenarios that people develop, 434 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: and that constant and self talk, and that shame and 435 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 2: the anxiety that you carry out of those sorts of situations, 436 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 2: it sets you up for a lifetype of It could 437 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 2: be isolation, it could be problematic relationships, complex, very difficult, 438 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 2: painful emotions and memories that so many of us we 439 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 2: just aren't equipped to know how to cope with. It's 440 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 2: this what we call kind of a general risk factor. 441 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 2: It's not necessarily specific to eating disorders, but it's a 442 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 2: general risk factor for a lot of mental health problems. 443 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 2: And so it's important for the community and eating disorders 444 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 2: because we need to understand that we're going to see 445 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 2: higher rates of trauma in these individuals and be ready 446 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 2: to approach our care from that trauma informed lens to 447 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 2: make these people feel safe, feel heard, feel validated, and 448 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 2: to give them a really safe space for healing. 449 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: I think Queer Eye has been so instrumental Jonathan and 450 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: helping people shape their views for the importance of being inclusive, 451 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: the fact that there are many different people with different 452 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: views on gender, sexual orientation, sort of who they are. 453 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: And I'm curious things have changed so much in your lifetime. 454 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: Obviously we have a ways to go. How have these 455 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: developments and our understanding of gender and a greater acceptance 456 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: of fluidity, how have they affected you in terms of 457 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: your view of yourself. Do you feel almost liberated in 458 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: a way that you never did before in years past? 459 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 3: Hmmm, Katie, I don't know. I just don't know. 460 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 4: I think living in Texas because I've been here for 461 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 4: three years. On a singular level, like on a personal level, 462 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 4: I do when I'm at home, when I go out 463 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 4: to eat in Texas, I don't wear heels because if 464 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 4: I need to run for my life, like I don't 465 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 4: want to be in heels. Like I don't dress the 466 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 4: same in Texas, like even in Austin, Like I just 467 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 4: I always am looking behind me. I'm always like I 468 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 4: don't feel safe in a lot of spaces, and. 469 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: So we haven't come as far as I was hoping 470 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: we have. 471 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 4: Well, I mean in the state of Texas, if I mean, 472 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 4: if I think if I had a kid like that 473 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 4: would be enough for a fellow parent to refer me 474 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 4: to the Child Protective Services for child abuse, because I 475 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 4: mean Ken Paxton, who's a trial for impeachment in state Texas. 476 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 4: But Governor Abbitt as well, like they made an executive 477 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 4: order that incentivized child protective Services to you know, investigate 478 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 4: any parents who had kids that they that other parents 479 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 4: thought look too queer at school. 480 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 3: We're trans you know. 481 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 4: I mean, it really feels like, you know, personally, and 482 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 4: I think when I go I call it my capitalist 483 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 4: guilt and shame room. Like when I look at my purses, 484 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 4: I'm like wow, Like I have a bunch of cool 485 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 4: shit that I never thought I could have personally, and 486 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 4: like there's you know when I think about like that 487 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 4: I'm friends with Michelle Kwan, or like that I've done 488 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 4: her hair, like that I have, you know, two best 489 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 4: selling not like two best selling books in the New 490 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 4: York Times best seller list, like accomplishments that I personally had. 491 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 4: I'm like, wow, that's really fucking cool, and I never 492 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 4: thought that I could do that. But also at the 493 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 4: same time, like it's not like as you said, like 494 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 4: it is a severe backlash. Like so I think I 495 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 4: have come to. 496 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 3: A personal place where I'm like wow, Like I'm my. 497 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 4: World is way more open on gender, Like my world 498 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 4: is more open on like expressing myself. But you know, 499 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 4: when I go to the state Capitol and I protest, 500 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 4: and I have like parents, you know, coming up to 501 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 4: me and showing me pictures of their eight year old 502 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 4: and their seven year old and their ten year old 503 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 4: and their twelve year old, and they're talking about like 504 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 4: we're gonna have to move, like we are worried that 505 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 4: our kids are getting taken away from us. 506 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 1: We'll have more with Jonathan Vaness and Jesse Minzel right 507 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: after this. If you want to get smarter every morning 508 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on 509 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 1: health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our 510 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: daily newsletter Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot 511 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: com and We're back. 512 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,479 Speaker 4: Can we just zoom chat every morning about issues? And like, 513 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 4: can we just I'm literally having so much fun, like 514 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 4: can we just like I've never had so much mine? 515 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: You're so smart. I really appreciate hearing you and anyway, 516 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: I just love smart people, and Jesse, you are too. 517 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:48,719 Speaker 3: I love you guys. 518 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: I think they're a very small percentage of people, Jesse 519 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: would be my guests that don't have some kind of 520 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: body dysmorphia in one shape or form. But I'm curious 521 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: being non binary, Jonathan, how that has impacted your relationship 522 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: with your body and how you have been able to 523 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,479 Speaker 1: navigate that because talk about complex. 524 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I mean I think for me, a lot 525 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 4: of that was my friend a Loake that taught me 526 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 4: about non binary identity, and they were feelings that I 527 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 4: always had, Like I didn't feel like I fit in 528 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 4: with the boys. I definitely didn't fit in with the girls. 529 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 4: Like I felt aligned with like masculinity sometimes, I felt 530 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 4: aligned with femininity sometimes, but the way that like socially 531 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 4: were meant to function in the binary like, I never 532 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,479 Speaker 4: felt a part of that conversation. I did not have 533 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 4: an internal sense of like what it was to be 534 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 4: a man, or like what it is to be a 535 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 4: man and the way that we like think about it. 536 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 4: So then when I met a Loak and started you know, 537 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 4: learning more language around gender identity and also too, frankly 538 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 4: because like so many people from Queer Eye, like so 539 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 4: many fans were like, are you trans? 540 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 3: Are you non binary? 541 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 4: So I you know, like and I talk about that, 542 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 4: like I'd have to like hide my heels in my closet, 543 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 4: I'd have to like hide my crop tops, hide my makeup. 544 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 4: I didn't want the guy, so I was like bringing 545 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 4: home to Like I definitely had like a going out 546 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 4: to bring home a guy me and then like the 547 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 4: real me. And I always felt like I had to 548 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 4: like if I really started dating someone, I'd have to 549 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 4: be like this is how I really look, this is 550 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 4: how I really am. Like that was actually just like 551 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 4: me trying to be but can you imagine, which makes 552 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 4: me laugh a lot now. So but anyway, once I 553 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 4: understood the language, I was like, oh, that is totally 554 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 4: who I am, like non binary, gender non conforming, Like 555 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 4: that is totally what I am and what I've always been. 556 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 4: And so that just really resonated. And I think in 557 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 4: my second book, Love That Story, I talk about how 558 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 4: like I think that dichotomy of like and the pain 559 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 4: associated with like not being the fullness of who I am, 560 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 4: like in terms of like dating, like once your sexual 561 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 4: partner number gets to have like a comma in it, 562 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,479 Speaker 4: which mind died, so it became much more about, like, 563 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 4: I didn't care about other people validation because I'd already 564 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 4: got like I knew that that sexual validation was kind 565 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 4: of empty. So I realized it was way more important 566 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 4: for me to be true to myself because that was 567 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 4: actually much more fulfilling and much more real and like 568 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 4: rewarding for me than to try to, like, you know, 569 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 4: compartmentalize my life. So once that, once my relationship to 570 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 4: my sexual like self healed more, I was able to 571 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 4: like be, you know, more fully who I am. 572 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: Jesse. I love that EQUIP is so aware of lgbt 573 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: qia plus individuals and that you are all trained on 574 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: gender affirming care. How did you observe the need for 575 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: that or that there was a vacuum out there for 576 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: that kind of treatment. 577 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you asked about that, Katie. This is 578 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 2: something we are so proud of that EQUIP and at EQUIP, 579 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 2: about fifteen percent of our patients identify within the lgbtqia 580 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 2: plus community, and so we are working with a higher 581 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 2: proportion of individuals than most treatment programs ever see in 582 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 2: the eating disorder community. And part of the access issue is, 583 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 2: I think, being able to see yourself in the treatment 584 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 2: settings and the treatment programs and to feel welcome in 585 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 2: those treatment settings and treatment programs. And so in my 586 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 2: role at EQUIP, what I've had the chance to do 587 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 2: is work with experts in the lgbtqia plus community, to 588 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 2: work with people who are part of the lgbtqia plus community, 589 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 2: and thinking about how we can make our treatment program 590 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,959 Speaker 2: a place that is welcoming and inclusive of these individuals 591 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 2: from start to finish. And so our program includes looking 592 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: at do these individuals see themselves on our website, the 593 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 2: questions that we ask, the language we use on our 594 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,959 Speaker 2: intake forms. We've comed through all of that to make 595 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 2: sure that it is accepting of gender expansive individuals and experiences. 596 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 2: And we think it is crucial that eating disorder treatment 597 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 2: and someone's gender and sexual gender identity and sexual orientation, 598 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 2: that these two things the integral, not a part and 599 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 2: not separate. It's not like we can take someone who 600 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 2: is who is transgender and say like, well, we're going 601 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: to like set that part of you aside for a second, 602 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 2: and we're just going to talk about your eating disorder, 603 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 2: and we'll get to that later. The whole philosophy behind 604 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 2: our Grace program, it's a gender responsive and affirming care 605 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 2: at EQUIP. The idea is that you have to talk 606 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 2: about both of these things at the same time because 607 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 2: they're often so intertwined. You know, you talk about complex 608 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: relationships with someone's body, Katie, and like talk about someone 609 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 2: who feels like they were born in the wrong body, 610 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 2: someone who's outside physical attributes do not match how they 611 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 2: see themselves inside. We call that gender dysphoria. And not 612 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 2: everyone in the trans community experiences gender dysphoria, but for 613 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 2: those that do, it is so painful, it causes so 614 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 2: much distressed and often the eating disorder functions as a 615 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,719 Speaker 2: way to try to bring their physical self more closely 616 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 2: in line with their identity and how they see themselves, 617 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,719 Speaker 2: or to prevent themselves from getting even further from that. 618 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 2: So an eating disorder might serve as a way for 619 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 2: someone to delay the onset of puberty so that they 620 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 2: don't have to develop secondary sex characteristics, or an eating 621 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 2: disorder might be a way of helping somebody feel more 622 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 2: fem or more mask like in their build and their 623 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 2: physique and their frame. And so we can't treat an 624 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 2: eating disorder in someone who is trans or non binary 625 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 2: without also talking about how that eating disorder relates to 626 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 2: their gender identity. And so what our training and what 627 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 2: this program includes is like, is it heads to our 628 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 2: clinicians that you need to be educated and the issues 629 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 2: that are specific to this community, to be affirming of 630 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 2: that identity, to understand how that is relating to their 631 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 2: eating disorder, and we need to incorporate that throughout the 632 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 2: entire treatment journey at EQUIPPED. 633 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: What do you think about that, JVM, when you hear 634 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: about that approach, does that resonate with you? 635 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 4: Oh, I'm just over here snapping, clapping, I'm upset so 636 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 4: that the great acronym. I love a good acronym. I 637 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 4: am like, I'm all about it. Snap, It's like you 638 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 4: better work. I'm obsessed. Go Jesse, go CLI, Like, where 639 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 4: do I sign up? 640 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 3: I need it? 641 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: You all can talk about that after the podcast. But 642 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: to bring it full circle and what JBN was saying originally, 643 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: Jesse that there's so many people who don't get help. 644 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: I sort of feel like, when people need help, people 645 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,879 Speaker 1: need help, let's look at them as individuals. And I'm 646 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: curious how you can develop something that will reach some 647 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: of these folks who are too talk about shame, talk 648 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 1: about expectations, too embarrassed to reach out for help. 649 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 2: I think voices like Jonathan's and there are a bunch 650 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 2: of other people who have come out about their own 651 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 2: struggles with disordered eating men who have started to talk 652 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 2: about the eating disorders that they've had and that they've 653 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 2: struggled with. I think there are more men now talking 654 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 2: about the extreme pressures that exist for men when it 655 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 2: comes to their physical looks and how they treat their 656 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 2: bodies and what they do with their bodies. But this 657 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,720 Speaker 2: is I think one of the beauties of virtual treatment, 658 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 2: because I think part of the idea here is that 659 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,919 Speaker 2: when you can reach out for help by going onto 660 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 2: the internet, by using your computer, by using your phone, 661 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 2: it takes away some of those barriers that you have 662 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 2: to otherwise face and going out and asking for help, 663 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: of having to make phone calls to go physically walk 664 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 2: into a clinic or walk into a treatment program. I 665 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,240 Speaker 2: think there are a lot of people who still don't 666 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 2: feel like they can do that or maybe know they 667 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 2: need it, but still feel ashamed of having to do it. 668 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 2: And so that's I think the beauty of bringing treatment 669 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 2: at home is because I think that helps solve the 670 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 2: access problem. We can take away some of the shame 671 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 2: and the stigma associated with mental health because you can 672 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 2: do this right from the comfort of your own home. 673 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 2: And so hopefully we'll continue to advance this and move 674 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 2: this forward, but we need to have more creative ways 675 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 2: to help these people right now. 676 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: And Jvan, I feel like you have made a lot 677 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: of progress in terms of a understanding deeply, at a 678 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: very deep level, so many of these issues, but you 679 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: remain a work in progress like all of us. And 680 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: I'm curious for people who might be listening to this, 681 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: who really might be struggling with any kind of self acceptance, 682 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: what are some of the tools that can help them 683 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 1: on this journey, because I do feel like you're so wise. 684 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 3: Thanks. 685 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 4: I'm like, thank you. Two things came up for me 686 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 4: with that question. Okay, So basically, there are so many 687 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 4: modalities of healing, like the health of any size community, 688 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 4: and some of the modalities have certain guidelines that other 689 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:51,959 Speaker 4: ones don't. And it doesn't mean that some are bad, 690 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 4: some are this. It's just there's so many different ways 691 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 4: of healing. But one thing that I thought was really 692 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,439 Speaker 4: interesting about Hayes, or like the health of any size 693 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 4: community that learned about, it's like, first of all, you're gorgeous, 694 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 4: you're hot. It doesn't matter what you look like on 695 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 4: the outside. So, and you're beautiful and worthy of love 696 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 4: and acceptance and celebration. But it's like, you're not the 697 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 4: voice in your head, Like you're the observer of the 698 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 4: voice in your head. So once you can stop identifying 699 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 4: with like, oh my god, I don't feel cute about myself, 700 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 4: I feel horrible or whatever the fee whatever that voice 701 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 4: is saying, girl, that's not you. You're observing that voice. 702 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 4: That's where the piece is. So it doesn't matter how 703 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 4: you look it like, and it doesn't like so piece 704 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 4: is available to us at all times. 705 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 3: And that is true. 706 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,479 Speaker 4: It might not feel true, but it is because that's 707 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 4: I think, really what like Christians and Buddhists and everybody's 708 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,879 Speaker 4: talking about, like that relationship to the like it's really 709 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 4: that like your connection to either your spirituality or higher power, 710 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 4: you know, the universe, whatever that's within you at all 711 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 4: times so we just disconnect from the voice in our 712 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 4: head and we connect to that like expansiveness. That's what 713 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 4: I would say to you for the end of your 714 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 4: gorgeous podcast. That's what I would say. 715 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: Anyway. I love you, I love talking to you. You 716 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: kill me Jesse before we go. I mean, obviously people 717 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: are so unhappy with the world and with themselves. How 718 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: do you try to get people to, I don't know, 719 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: give themselves a break. 720 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 2: I think that's like the million dollar question, right Katie, 721 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,280 Speaker 2: And I think Javian you said it so well. It's 722 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 2: there is always this potential within you, I think to 723 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 2: shut out that noise, to set those things aside. It's 724 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 2: so hard to do. But I think what I really 725 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,720 Speaker 2: encourage people to do is you need to look inside 726 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 2: yourself and figure out what is important to me, What 727 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 2: are my values, what is my truth? Like what speaks 728 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 2: to me? And I think that the more that we 729 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,800 Speaker 2: can we can't do a lot to sort of control 730 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 2: what happens in our brain, but what we can control 731 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 2: a lot is our behavior and our actions that we take. 732 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 2: And I think reminding ourselves of like what is that 733 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 2: that is going to bring me happiness? What is it 734 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 2: that is going to bring me satisfaction and fulfillment in 735 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 2: my life, and having to make this conscious effort to 736 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 2: bring yourself back to that all the time, and to 737 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 2: make sure that your behaviors and what you're doing and 738 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 2: how you're acting is in line with what is important 739 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 2: to you and that brings you fulfillment and value in 740 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 2: your life. 741 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: So it can be and ways big and small, but 742 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: kind of like getting out of your own head and 743 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: seeing how you can change someone else's day or life 744 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: or experience. 745 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 2: And that's I think by finding what is it that's 746 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 2: truly important, right and that might not be something inside you, 747 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 2: it might be outside of you. It might be your community, 748 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 2: helping others, giving back, and so making sure your actions 749 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,959 Speaker 2: are in surface of those things. Those are the things 750 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 2: we can control and bring ourselves. 751 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 1: Back to and I think you both are doing that 752 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: every single day. So thank you Jesse, and thank you JVN. 753 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: It's such a treat to see you again. And I 754 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: really enjoyed this conversation. I did too. 755 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me, Katie. I'm just like always obsessed 756 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 4: with you and Jesse. 757 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 3: You're amazing, Oh, thank you baking this opportunity. 758 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 2: This is amazing to talk about both of you today. 759 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. By the way, if you have 760 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: a question for me, a subject you want us to cover, 761 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 1: or you want to share your thoughts about how you 762 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 1: navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a 763 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: short message at six h nine five point two five 764 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: to five oh five, or you can send me a 765 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. 766 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,240 Speaker 1: Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. 767 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,280 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Meet Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz. 768 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana 769 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, 770 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: who also composed our theme music. For more information about 771 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: today's episode, or to sign up or my newsletter wake 772 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,280 Speaker 1: Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app 773 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 1: or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also 774 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: find me on Instagram and all my social media channels. 775 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:17,320 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 776 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.