1 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to You Need Therapy podcast. My 2 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: name is Kat and I am the host. Here. Quick 3 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: reminder up top that although this is a podcast about 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: mental health, and although I am a licensed therapist, this 5 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: podcast does not serve as a replacement or a substitute 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: for actual mental health services. However, we do hope that 7 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: these conversations help you on whatever journey you are on 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: in some way. Now for the good stuff. I am 9 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: so excited about our guest today. His name is JP Sachs, 10 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: and if you are not familiar with him, then I 11 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: can't wait for you to get familiar with him, because 12 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: he's awesome and multiple different ways. I am a big 13 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: fan of his music, and NAT actually led me to 14 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: wanting him to come be a guest on the show 15 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: because of some of the things he sings and writes about. 16 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: I'm like, this guy has some things to say, and 17 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: I have some questions and I want to learn more, 18 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: and I just assumed he would have a cool perspective, 19 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: which I was right, and I'm just so super grateful 20 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: that he accepted and was willing to come and chat 21 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: with a random person he doesn't know that lives across 22 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 1: the country, so you could google JP and you can 23 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: see his accomplishments. You can see that he is a 24 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: Grammy nominated Singers songwriter. He is very successful on what 25 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: he does. But what you can't google as easily. You know, 26 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: you might read this in some interviews or something like that, 27 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: but what you can't google is easily is the essence 28 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: of who he is and the kind of human he is. 29 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: And he is a pretty cool human and you will 30 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: see that and hear that and feel that as you 31 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: listen to this conversation. I was unsure on how the 32 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: conversation would go because you know, I've never met him 33 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: before at a note mood he would be in. I 34 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: don't know if he really wanted to have this conversation. 35 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: You know, you never know, And I was so pleasantly 36 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,559 Speaker 1: surprised by how he showed up and what he showed 37 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: up with. We talk about relationships, we talk about feelings, 38 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: We talked about masculinity, We talked about the difference between 39 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: leaving and being left in the different ways we try 40 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: to get over heartbreak. And he just had some really 41 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: cool perspectives. He says some things that you are going 42 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: to want to write down, and you're gonna want to 43 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: journal about and you're gonna want to marinate over them 44 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: because he offers, like I said, a really cool perspective 45 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: that you don't hear as much in multiple different areas 46 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: of life that I believe. I think it is going 47 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: to be really like priceless and special for a lot 48 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: of you guys. So the other thing is because I 49 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: am who I am, this conversation went over about forty minutes, 50 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: and UM, I'm not mad about that because it was fruitful. 51 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: And because of that, instead of chiseling it down and 52 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: cutting things out, I decided, let's just keep it all 53 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: and split it into two parts. So this week you 54 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: will hear part one, and then I'm gonna keep you 55 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: on your toes because I'm gonna keep you excited for 56 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: next week's episode, and then next Monday we'll put part 57 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: two out. I also want to let you guys know 58 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: that JP is releasing a new song. So he just 59 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: released a new song called When You Think Of Me, 60 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: and we talk about that song and the meaning behind 61 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: it in this conversation, and guys, this song is so good, 62 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: so like, go download it right now. But he's releasing 63 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 1: another new song on November eleventh, called the good parts 64 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: and it should be available to pre save by the 65 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: time you were listening to this, which is really exciting. 66 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: So go follow him on Instagram at JP Stacks. I'll 67 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: put a link in the bio for you guys. And 68 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: if you guys have not heard his music before, you're 69 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: welcome because this is going to be your new obsession. 70 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: And if you have heard of him before or you 71 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: are a fan, get excited because there's some new music 72 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: continuing to come. Now, I'm not going to keep you 73 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: waiting any longer. Well, I kind of am, because I'm 74 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: cutting this conversation to two parts, but for this part 75 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: of a conversation, I'm not going to keep you any longer. 76 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: So here is my conversation with JP Sax. Do you 77 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: enjoy conversations with strangers? Yes, you do? Okay. Would you 78 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: say you're introverted or extroverted? So? I thought I was 79 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: an introvert for a really long time, and it's potential 80 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: it's possible that I was, but I'm definitely not now, Okay. 81 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: I think I'm pretty like pretty far on the extrovert 82 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: spectrum of things. Do are you familiar with the iniogram? Yes? 83 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: What are number with the numbers of the letters. Numbers 84 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: the numbers. The numbers umber two. Okay, which ones too? 85 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: The helper? Yeah that was me. Okay, I'm a seven. 86 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: So most people think that because seven is the enthusiasts. 87 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: Most people think that I'm an extrovert because I do 88 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: tend to have a lot of energy and I can 89 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: talk to a wall. But I actually am really introverted, 90 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: and like, if I got to choose, like I said, 91 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: on any given night, I would like to be in bed. 92 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: I like being social, but there's a certain type of 93 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: work that comes with it. So it's just very interesting. Okay, 94 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: I want to get into some things and we'll just 95 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: see where it goes. I don't know what they tell 96 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: you when you agree to do these things, but I 97 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: am a therapist. I love in Nashville. Yeah, so I 98 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: was about to make a joke about how I only 99 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: hear about the angiograms when I go to Nashville. Well, 100 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot 101 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: of sense. It's like the Hub and I love the Instagram. 102 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: I think it's a great tool. But in Nashville sometimes 103 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, okay, I'm done with this conversation, and 104 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: I don't know how many interviews and podcasts you really 105 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: like do in general, But I don't also know how 106 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: many you do that are mental health focused. So I 107 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: want to talk about your music because I know who 108 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: you are, because I love your music. Um, and that's 109 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: one of the reasons I went to your Is it 110 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: like a single release show, the one that you did 111 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: in Nashville. I loved there. Yeah, that was at that show. Yeah. 112 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: And the real that I got the idea to ask 113 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: you to be on the podcast because you sang, well 114 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: want all of your musics is there's little like weaves 115 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: of just like little things. I'm like, he went to therapy, 116 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: he has a therapist. He learned that there. He likes 117 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: mental health. But I think it was when you say 118 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,679 Speaker 1: explain you and you know the opening life, which I've 119 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: talked about that therapist. But common misunderstanding in that song 120 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: is the therapist mentioned and explain you is not the 121 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: therapist I landed on. That's interesting in that song, is 122 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: that like you don't like that therapist. Well, so about 123 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: four years ago I decided that I wanted to have 124 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: a go to therapist. I had gone on and off 125 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: throughout my life, but only in like times of dire need. 126 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: I had never had a consistent person who I had 127 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: to established for port with. So yes, this is I 128 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: decided I was I was going to find my go 129 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: to therapist, and I went to seven before I found 130 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: one that I really liked. Okay, you, I've got to 131 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: talk about that process, because that is something I think 132 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: comes up a lot where people think I go to 133 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 1: a first therapist and I have to stick with them, 134 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: or this therapist sucks, I'm done with therapy, right. I 135 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: was adamant that I was going to have a therapist 136 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: in my life that knew me, that I respected, and 137 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: that I was actually going to listen to and walk 138 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: away with things that were improving, you know, my process 139 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: of analyzing my life. So that was an interesting couple 140 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: of months because I was like twice a week going 141 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: to different therapists trying to find the right one. And 142 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: the therapist that I mentioned in explain to you the 143 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: first line of that song for for your listeners you 144 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: have not heard it is my therapist called you a 145 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: learning experience for eighty an hour. That's all that he 146 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: mentions missing. He is getting fucking expensive because I dropped 147 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: a lot of money on therapy that month, I think 148 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: is a lot of money. Yeah, I mean pretty standard 149 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: out here. Yeah, I assume it's a little bit higher 150 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: than this year. Uh so, Yeah. I think that was 151 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: therapist number four, who had I had given him this 152 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: whole story about what I was trying to figure out 153 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: about myself and you know, understanding myself separate from someone 154 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: who I had really rooted my identity and being beside, 155 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: and he just goes, well, it sounds like it sounds 156 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: like she was a learning experience, and then just kind 157 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: of looks at me, and I thought that that can't be. 158 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: That can't be how this is supposed to go. And 159 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: I thought it was really funny. So I did not 160 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: see that therapist again. But that's who I'm talking about 161 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: in that song. I'm so glad I have that, like 162 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: that knowledge now because I now hear that song differently 163 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: because I can see how somebody might say that. But 164 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: if that's the only feedback you're getting from a therapist, 165 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: you're like, well, okay, what is the learning experience? I 166 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: need more? What part of you then was like, I 167 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: have to keep doing this work to find this person, 168 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: And how did you know when you found the right person? 169 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: So I think, obviously, a great therapist can mean someone 170 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 1: one time and completely unravel everything about their life and choices, 171 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: and it's a amazing when that happens. I love listening 172 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: to Esther Parrel's podcast because I like hearing her do that. 173 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: But I also just think, if I need to spend 174 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,599 Speaker 1: the first thirty minutes of a session explaining the foundations 175 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: at which I have arrived at this complicated traumatic moment, 176 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: I'm not getting nearly as much depth on how to 177 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: navigate it as if I've had, you know, fifty sessions 178 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: under my belt with my current therapist. So when I 179 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,959 Speaker 1: walk in, we just, you know, we can skip the 180 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: the therapy small talk. And she also just has such 181 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: a better memory than I do, Like my memory is 182 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: just shipped just like really bad. I think it's it's 183 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: it's somewhat indicative of a lot of the things about 184 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: my life like that are like predicated on me having 185 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: such a bad memory that I do things in order 186 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: to try and create like try and create memory or 187 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: try and you know, establish some sort of like just 188 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: some sort of immortalized version of things in order to 189 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: feel like they've actually happens. By journal so obsessively anyway, 190 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 1: she'll say like, well, you know, last year in this session, 191 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: you were talking about blah blah blah blah, and that 192 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: feels like it probably relates to you right now trying 193 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: to blah blah blah blah. And those are always like 194 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: big win moments for for my therapist. I think I'm 195 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: always deeply impressed. So I think it sends the message 196 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: because I am a therapist who also goes to therapy, 197 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: and so when my own therapist can like pull some 198 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: recall out to me, I'm like, you listen to me. 199 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: And for a lot of people going to therapy, that's 200 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: like sometimes all they need somebody that actually is paying 201 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: attention to them and their story. So I can see 202 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: how that like it's a win for the therapist because 203 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, okay, I was able to put that together, 204 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: and then it's a win for the client because they're like, 205 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm not just like another one of 206 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: your people on your schedule, Like you're paying attention to 207 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,079 Speaker 1: my story. Yeah, I actually have a question for you 208 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: about this. So you know, because my music, you know, 209 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: deals with the emotional elements of being a human, I 210 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 1: do get questions often that I feel entirely unqualified for, um, 211 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: just questions that you would ask a therapist, like people, 212 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: whether it be about because you know, I write about 213 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: I read about love, I read about heartbreak, I read 214 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: about grief, I read about you know, things that people 215 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: often talk to their therapists about. And I used to 216 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: I used to be like a little bit glib about it. 217 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: You know, I would I would show support and I 218 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: was like, I don't know, I feel like I would say, like, 219 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: I feel really unqualified for to answer that question, or 220 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 1: you know, people would be like, your music is like therapy, 221 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: and I'm like, that means the world to me, but 222 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: also like therapy is better, um, like real therapy is better. 223 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: You should try that. But then I read storted recognized 224 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: that it was it was somewhat inconsiderate of me to 225 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: be suggesting a two hundred dollar a week model of 226 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: of help when you know music is for the most 227 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: part free, and I was I was neglecting to incorporate 228 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: that into my thinking on it, and and it trips 229 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: me up now because obviously, like I want to be 230 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: a proponent of therapy. I think it's been such a 231 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: huge part of my life, but it's pretty inaccessible to 232 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: most people. How do you how do you navigate trying 233 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: to point people towards resources and things that can be 234 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: a helpful part of their mental health routines without you know, 235 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: running into the problem of a lot of the things 236 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: that are so helpful to require. So you're that's a 237 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: really actually a good question because you're talking about like, 238 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: how do I not like overstep and start speaking out 239 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: of my lane? But how do I not offer nothing? 240 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: And then how do I not offer something that somebody 241 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: doesn't have access to? Right exactly? So that's one of 242 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: the reasons I started this podcast because I am a 243 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: therapist that works private practice. I don't take insurance, like 244 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: I have a sliding scale for a certain number of clients. 245 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: And at the same time, I'm like, well, okay, this 246 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: leaves a lot of people out. And I have these 247 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: conversations all day, all the time, whether they're in my 248 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: head or with a client about things like attachment with 249 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: Like three or four years ago, nobody knew what attachment 250 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: theory was besides therapists. Now it's more some people STI 251 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 1: don't know what it is, but it's becoming more mainstream. 252 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: But people weren't having conversations about what actually is the 253 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 1: difference between like being sad and actually being clinically depressed. 254 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: How do I know when I how do I find 255 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: access to a psychiatrists that might be able to help 256 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: me in and find things that are gonna help me 257 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: maybe feel like a normal person? Um what is normal? 258 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: So that's one of the reasons I started this because 259 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: a lot of the conversations I have are like building 260 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: blocks for what you might actually do with the therapist later. 261 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: There's a lot of information just conversations that generally aren't happening. 262 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: But I say this all the time. I work mostly 263 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: with eating disorders and body image. I see all kinds 264 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: of stuff, but I get a lot of people that 265 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: are coming for a very specific reason. I haven't eating disorder. 266 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: I just I'm going through a breakup. I moved to 267 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: a new city, and I feel whatever. I feel like 268 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: I'm having a been left all things. When it comes 269 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: down to it, I truly believe what we're really searching 270 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: for is a cure to some kind of loneliness somewhere right, 271 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: and the vice that might be the eating disorder or 272 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: the feeling of like deep sorrow, might be that lack 273 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: of connection that we're literally born like we are born 274 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: connected to our moms, So we're born needing connection of 275 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: some sort. So when it comes down to it, we're 276 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: all looking for a way to like feel connected to 277 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: somebody to cure this loneliness. Were in the loneliness eponemic, 278 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: like not even talking about what COVID and all that 279 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: did to us. So I say all of that because 280 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: while therapy is very helpful, I would never send the 281 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: message that somebody shouldn't go to therapy. It's not always 282 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: the answer, right, it can always be helpful, but it 283 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: might not always be necessary. It can help anybody. But 284 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: also if we're looking for a cure to loneliness, that 285 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: is connection. And so what we can offer people are 286 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: resources that help people connect to each other. What we 287 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: can offer our ways that we can feel less alone. 288 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: Speaking of even your music, something that it does and 289 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: something that I felt through a lot of music is 290 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: when you hear a song, like if I hear a 291 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: song about specifically heartbreak, right when I hear somebody who 292 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: had singing a song that they wrote about heartbreak, what 293 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: that tells me is that, wait a second, the only 294 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: way that this person knows how to write this is 295 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: because it was in their head and the only reason 296 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: was in their head, because somehow they experienced it, whether 297 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: they saw it or they lived it. And so that 298 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: means that that person has been through something that I've 299 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: been through. I'm not the only one. And if that 300 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: person is surviving or thriving whatever, that's giving me some 301 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: kind of hope. And I'm feeling connected to another human 302 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: even if I'm not like breathing the same air as you. 303 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: So that's my long winded way to answer that question 304 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: is we want to offer tangible things, but often offering 305 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: an experience of understanding is like the biggest thing. Yeah, 306 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: I mean that makes perfect sense. Yeah, when people do 307 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: come to talk to you about relationships, but I'm sure 308 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: what happens often because we spend most of our time, 309 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: at least the people are on me spend a lot 310 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: of their time thinking about, you know, their relationships. How 311 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: often are people coming to you to help navigate the 312 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: emotions of of being left versus the emotions of coming 313 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: to terms with leaving. This is so interesting because I 314 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: just recorded a conversation about the difference between um leaving 315 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: an abandonment, because they're very different things. Being abandoned, being left. 316 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: But when you're asking me how well, I'll give you 317 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: the cliff notes version if you want to listen to 318 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: the whole episode. It came out on Monday, October twenty four, 319 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: and it is called The Difference Between Abuse, Abandoned and 320 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: Other Things with Tera Booker. But here's kind of a 321 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: cliff notes version for you. Now. So when I'm being 322 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: when I'm abandoned, that means that, like a child is abandoned. 323 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: If you're abandoned, you're left and you're not able to survive. Right, 324 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: So people can leave me, but I'm still able to 325 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: like actually meet my needs. So you can abandon a baby. 326 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: You can abandon a child. You can abandon somebody who 327 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: actually doesn't have resources or an ability to access resources. 328 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: Think about any kind of population that is just like 329 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: disabled in any way, whether that's financially, intellectually, like any 330 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: kind you can abandon those people. But if I'm a 331 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: functioning adult, right, So, if my boyfriend leaves me, if 332 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: he breaks up with me, if you're listening, please don't. 333 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: But if he tests that he is choosing to walk 334 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 1: away and leave a relationship, and that sucks, and that 335 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to feel like an immense amount of pain, 336 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: like an excruciating amount of pain. But I'm an adult, 337 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: and that need that he might be fulfilling in me, 338 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: I have the ability to access that somewhere else. It 339 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: might not feel like that at the time, right because 340 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: talk about like your head not being clear in the 341 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: midst of heartbreak, your head is not clear, so I 342 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: might not be able to actually rationalize that, and it 343 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,959 Speaker 1: might feel like he abandoned me. It might feel like 344 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: I can't access my needs or I'm left without a paddle. 345 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: But he's leaving me because adults are left. And I 346 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: want to hear your thoughts on this. I think that's 347 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: really hard to come to terms with because when I'm abandoned, 348 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: I'm a victim. Right when I'm left, I just was 349 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: he left me. So when I abandoned, I'm telling myself 350 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: I don't have the ability to meet my needs, so 351 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: then I don't have to do the things that get 352 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: me to that next place, and those things are really hard, 353 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: Like healing heartbreak is one of the hardest things people 354 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: will That was a long cliff notes. No, No, I 355 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: mean that's fascinating. I mean I've been on both sides 356 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: of it at the end of relationships like I've been 357 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: in I would say three serious relationships in my life. 358 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: You know, the first one was seventeen to nineteen, So 359 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: I don't identify quite as much with that version of 360 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: myself as relationship two and three. But relationship two and 361 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: three like ended. You know, one of them ended where 362 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: I was left and one of them I left, and 363 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 1: you know that Johnny Mitch was on both sides. Now, 364 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: just like the the ambivalence of that song, I found 365 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: myself thinking about a lot anyways. I understood things about 366 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: being left that I didn't understand until I was the 367 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 1: one who left, Like what like that you could still 368 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: love somebody and also think it was the right decision 369 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: to leave a relationship, like when you know, when I 370 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: was twenty four in that relationship ended and she told me, 371 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: she was like, I love you and I will always 372 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: love you, but I don't think the lives that we're 373 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: moving into are ones that were meant to be together. 374 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 1: And I don't remember exactly what she said because I 375 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: was fucking devastated, so I don't remember the exact words, 376 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: but something along those lines. But there was a lot 377 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: of like I love you and I will always love you, 378 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: and I think you're incredible, but I just I don't. 379 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: I don't think we are we need we were supposed 380 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: to stay together. I don't think we should say together. 381 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: And at the time I was like, I don't. That 382 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: does not make sense, Like that does not make any sense. 383 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: And I didn't really get it until I was in 384 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: a similar position where I was feeling immense love for 385 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: somebody who I also just didn't wholeheartedly feel a compatibility 386 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: in a relationship with moving forward despite immense love, and 387 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: and that person might be in the space that you 388 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: were and when you were twenty four, Yes, I mean 389 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: with with nuances different Like I was in an opposite position, 390 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: and they were in the position that I was once in, 391 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: and it was it was unbelievably illuminating, fucking awful, like 392 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: I I hate. I hated both of those experiences. I 393 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: didn't enjoy any moment of any of that, like really 394 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: some of some of the worst emotions I've ever felt. 395 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: But I also learned a lot from them, and there 396 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: was a lot of context that I didn't have without 397 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: having been on both sides of it. You said like 398 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: it didn't make any sense, That didn't make any sense 399 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: that you love me, but you are walking away from 400 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: this relationship, Like how is that possible? And I think 401 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: that speaks into this like larger which you might have 402 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: talked about in therapy idea of like these two coexisting 403 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: things they don't have to make sense, but they can 404 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: both be there, like I can be like deeply sad 405 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: and feel deeply free at the same time. Like think 406 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: about how like with any change, there was a loss, 407 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: but oftentimes change is good. And so there's these two 408 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: things that they don't make sense. And I think something 409 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: that I've experienced in my own life and I see 410 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: every day is we as human beings want everything to 411 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: make sense. That's that's how we feel like almost like settled, 412 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: but so much of the world just doesn't. And that's 413 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: like period, like there's no even there's nothing else to 414 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: be said to that, like there's no way to make 415 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: this makes sense because it doesn't. But trying to make 416 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: it makes sense isn't going to make it go away. 417 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: It makes sense in that you know, humans gonna human. 418 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: And I remember, like so years old that relationship has ended. 419 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: I really am devastated, And I remember reading a birthday 420 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: card that she had written me on my twenty third birthday. 421 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: This this moment made it into a song. I have 422 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: a song called Sad Corny Fuck And in the last verse, 423 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: the lyric is, I keep your love notes in a drawer. 424 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: I know you don't feel that way anymore. It just 425 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: feels nice knowing you really used to. So I remember 426 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: reading that. So I find this, like twenty her birthday 427 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: cart that she wrote me, and I don't remember verbatim, 428 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: but she says something the long lines of like I 429 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: love you and I can't wait to love you forever 430 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 1: or something like that. And like reading that post breakup, 431 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: there's the inclination to go, like, you lie, but I 432 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: think that would be inaccurate because she wholeheartedly meant it. 433 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: In that moment, you can heart wholeheartedly love someone and 434 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: feel as if you would love them forever. And then 435 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: you continue to live, and you continue to grow, and 436 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: you have to reckon with this potential growing disparity of 437 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: what you want to want and what you want, which 438 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: is a shitty dissonance, extraordinarily painful for everyone involved. And 439 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: then you reckon with like, how how much of responsibility 440 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: do I have to the feelings that I once fully felt? 441 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: And no longer do like, do I have to be 442 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: like literally married glue to those for the rest of 443 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: my life? Or am I allowed to change? Right? So 444 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: I have to question, since I'm going to try to 445 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 1: ask both of them at different times, how did you 446 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 1: get to this place where you're like, oh, I was 447 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: that person who maybe I've said I want to love 448 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: you for the rest of my life and then I 449 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: and that, but I don't feel that way anymore. And 450 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: now it feels like I have to choose between this 451 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: thing that I said one time or like actual authenticity 452 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: or lots of times, yeah, a million times, or authenticity 453 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: of what's going on now, because you're bringing up this 454 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: hard point that we evolve and we change, and the 455 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,239 Speaker 1: world change and stuff happens and we can't predict it, 456 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: and we're not in control of our feelings. Like if 457 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: we were in control of our feelings, I would be 458 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: a bazillionaire because I would just teach people how to 459 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: do that. But we can't do that, and I'm not 460 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: a bajillionaire. So how did you actually come to terms 461 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: with I have to choose this authentic part that this 462 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: isn't actually where I am anymore. Yeah, I mean, I 463 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,959 Speaker 1: think the first thing is empathizing with how just fucking 464 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: devastating that is for the other person, because it is 465 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: truly so awful for someone that you really wholeheartedly love 466 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: and who you haven't stopped intending to continue to love, 467 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: to watch them kind of slip out of the emotions 468 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: that you used to be two feet in together. So 469 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: recognizing that there's a part of you that is feeling 470 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: things that would hurt someone you love is like a 471 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: very like identity splitting experience, because I think part of 472 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: a relationship is the commitment to protecting the person you 473 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: love from anything that would hurt them. So when you 474 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: recognize there's a part of you that is threatening to 475 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: hurt the person you love, my first instinct was to 476 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: fucking kill it, just to kill like like if, like 477 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: I would with anything that tried to hurt, hurt like 478 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 1: anything like my I hadn't very much internalized like if 479 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: any if anything is going to hurt you, I'm going 480 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: to hurt it first. And then the thing that that 481 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: was growing to hurt her was inside of me, and 482 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: I hated it, despised it like neglected, despised it, tried 483 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: to destroy it, and couldn't, and then grappled with, Okay, well, 484 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: maybe like this will go away, maybe I can ignore it, 485 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: maybe like maybe I can find a way to just 486 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: deal with this in another way because I love this 487 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: person I'm with, and I the hurting them seems like 488 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: the worst thing in the world because they are so 489 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: worthy of love and so exceptional and intellectually, I still 490 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: think everything I always thought about them, and how could 491 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: I possibly let myself hurt them? And then it doesn't 492 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: go away, and then parts of you is growing, and 493 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: then that part of you was like, you know, like 494 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: when you hit something, they hit back, and then you 495 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: know you're just in conflict with yourself, and then that 496 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 1: takes you out of a relationship and it just becomes 497 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: a whole, a whole mess. You know what's really cool 498 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: is you sharing that and hearing that perspective. It's a 499 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: perspective that I don't feel as amplified that often. I 500 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: haven't heard it that often, and I hear in my 501 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: office and I've probably said these things a lot of Well, 502 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: if they knew at this point, why didn't they end it? 503 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: If they were feeling this at this point, why didn't that? 504 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: And I like this this description that you're giving us 505 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: where it's like, well, because I didn't want to. I 506 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: didn't I didn't want that voice to be a real voice. 507 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: So I wasn't going to jump ship the first time 508 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: it starts speaking to me. I was trying to change it, 509 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,719 Speaker 1: and I couldn't because again I'm not I can't control 510 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: my feelings. So I think that's really cool. The other 511 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: question I had is for you, specifically after the first relationship, 512 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,160 Speaker 1: how did you find I don't know what's right where 513 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 1: it is almost like the courage. How did you find 514 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: the courage to jump back in something when you've felt 515 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: the like deepest pain and you know what a relationship 516 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: can lead to because you'll hear that all day long. 517 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: I've definitely said this, I don't ever want to feel 518 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: like this again, so I'm just never going to date 519 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: anybody again. Yeah, I met someone miraculous. I just met 520 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: someone who was entirely impossible to not love. It was 521 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: unavoidable in every way. The answer, I don't think it's 522 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: more complicated, Like I didn't necessarily think that. I you know, 523 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: there's about a year and a half between those relationships, 524 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: and sure, like I had the fear of that happening again. 525 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: But there was just such a doubtless nous about the beginning, 526 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: you know, there was such a you know, I meet someone, 527 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: you feel like every imaginable you know, certainty in the 528 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: in the beginnings and excitement of something, and it just 529 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: becomes impossible to not love them. I freaking love that 530 00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: you said that. I need to like play this and 531 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: says as well, because it's again one of those tangible 532 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: things we want, right like I want a roadmap to heartbreak, 533 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: So I want to know, like how long am I 534 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: going to feel this way? And will when? Will I 535 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: know when I'm ready to date again? And I think 536 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: part of this is a lot of people think that 537 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: therapists like have these like hard and fast rules, and 538 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: we don't because everybody is different. And so you saying like, oh, 539 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: actually I was able to do that because I met 540 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: somebody and I just couldn't avoid the feelings I was having, 541 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: Like I met somebody who who actually made me feel 542 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: like it was safe. I met something like That's how 543 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: it happened. I didn't do a workbook, I didn't wait 544 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: a certain amount of time specifically, I didn't put rules 545 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: on things. I just kind of let myself feel Yeah, 546 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: I mean there were there were a couple of things 547 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: that I would say during that period of my life 548 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: really helped me get to a place where I was 549 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: ready to meet someone like stunning ly exceptional and then 550 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: dive into it. I would say that the two things 551 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: I did that I really am grateful to that version 552 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: of myself for doing was I started channeling my romantic 553 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: energy and my desire for intimacy into my communities rather 554 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: than dating. So like, whenever I felt that urge for 555 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: you know, I'm craving intimacy, you know, am I going 556 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: to go on a dating app? Am I gonna go 557 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: on a first date with a stranger? Or am I 558 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: going to try and foster more intimate relationships with my friends? 559 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,239 Speaker 1: And it was the best thing I did in that 560 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: year of my life was every time I felt that 561 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: I would just reach out to I would reach out 562 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: to either my best friends or friends that I had 563 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: close relationships with and wanted to be closer with. And 564 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: my community grew really meaningfully during that year and a 565 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: half and going into that relationship now I had this 566 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: community so and it's still my community. So I'm really 567 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: grateful for for that energy and it's honestly the place 568 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: I mean now. And the other thing thing that I 569 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: think helped for me personally was getting a little bit 570 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: more comfortable with leaving space. What do you mean by 571 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: leaving space? I think love is one of the best 572 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: feelings in the world, So for most people, you would 573 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: rather have the wrong version of it than none of it. 574 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: But as long as you're occupying the part of you 575 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: that has the capacity to love with a version of 576 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: love that isn't what you want, there isn't actually the 577 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: space for it to be filled by the version that 578 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: you do. And holding onto the idea that what was 579 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: going to make me happy was something that I didn't 580 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: know anything about yet, Like it wasn't an answer that 581 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: I had at my fingertips, Like it wasn't actually in 582 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: my life. The thing that was going to make me happy, 583 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: the thing that I was going to love, wasn't something 584 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: that I could come up with. It wasn't something that 585 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: I had any semblance of or any hints on like that. 586 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: That reminder for myself was useful. And then just reminding 587 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: myself that like, yes, there's a space there, and that 588 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: space can be uncomfortable, the space that wants to love 589 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: someone that wants to hold someone. But if I feel it, 590 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: then there isn't room for the thing that's supposed to 591 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: be there if I keep filling it with the wrong thing. Yes, 592 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: that was beautiful, and what you're also speaking to is 593 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: and maybe I'm wrong that even in that space, your 594 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: life can still be good, Like even when you're living 595 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: in that uncomfortable space, life can still be good. Of course, 596 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: emptiness is just openness from the right angle, and reminding 597 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: myself of that, I think is one of the best 598 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: things I did in that version of heartbreak, because it 599 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,479 Speaker 1: can feel like emptiness, especially like when there's someone who 600 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: who is there for you, you know, for a long 601 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,479 Speaker 1: period of time, who is that intimate connection, and then 602 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: they're not there anymore. Like it can feel like emptiness, 603 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: but with the right perspective, it is also an openness. 604 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: It's an openness for that space to be filled by 605 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: new things that you aren't able to come up with 606 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: for yourself, but we'll show up, Like showing up to 607 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: a songwriting session with you know, someone that you really 608 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: admire and then writing a song that changes your life 609 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: and meeting someone who changes your life you know, like 610 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: you don't come up with those things. It's just kind 611 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: of you can't force that. Yeah, yeah, all right, y'all. 612 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: I know you're probably on the edge of your seat 613 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,239 Speaker 1: because maybe we just got into talking about something that 614 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: you're like, give me more of this. I want to 615 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: hear more good news. There's going to be more, and 616 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: it's coming next week. This is a two part episode 617 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: with JP Sacks, So if you have not already subscribed 618 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: or followed this podcast, go ahead and do that now 619 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: so you won't miss next week's episode. I will be 620 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: back with him next Monday, so go ahead and do that. 621 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: And in the meantime, I hope you guys have the 622 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: days that you need to have and I will talk 623 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: to you soon.