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Speaker 1: My welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you welcome

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Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert

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Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and I was just out

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Speaker 1: of town. While I was out, Robert, you chatted with

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Speaker 1: some old guests of the show. You you brought back

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Speaker 1: our friend Mark Mandeka. Right, that's right, Mark Mandinka, executive

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Speaker 1: director of the Amphibian Foundation here in Atlanta. He spoke

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Speaker 1: with us pretty much just a year ago, like almost

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Speaker 1: exactly a year ago about you know, the challenges of

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Speaker 1: amphibian conservation, about what the Amphibian Foundation does, and also

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Speaker 1: highlighted some really gnarly species of amphibian and discussed their

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Speaker 1: their interesting ways of reproducing. Uh. So that was a

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Speaker 1: fun chat. And so since it had been a year

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Speaker 1: and since Mark is a you know, a local guest,

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Speaker 1: UH called him in and uh he joined me for

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Speaker 1: a chat about again amphibian concert vation, what the Amphibian

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Speaker 1: Foundation has been up to. That's going to be in

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Speaker 1: the first half of the interview, uh and uh. And

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Speaker 1: then in the second half the interview, Well, we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about some often vilified reptiles, namely in in

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Speaker 1: our neck of the woods here the copper head snake

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Speaker 1: and the snapping turtle. Like why we know to what

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Speaker 1: extent can we even answer the question why are these

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Speaker 1: creatures persecuted? But then also what roles do they play

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Speaker 1: in our environment and why we should value those roles? Awesome? Well,

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Speaker 1: I cannot wait to hear this conversation. So should we

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Speaker 1: jump right into the interview with Mark Mandica. Let's jump

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Speaker 1: right into the Amphibian Pod. All right, Mark, welcome back

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Speaker 1: to the show. And uh, for for anyone who maybe

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Speaker 1: a little foggy on on your last appearance or didn't

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Speaker 1: listen to that episode, Uh yet, can you go ahead

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Speaker 1: and introduce yourself to everyone? Absolutely, and thanks for having

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Speaker 1: me Mark Mandica, co founder and executive director of the

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Speaker 1: Amphibian Fundation. So yeah, you joined us on the show

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Speaker 1: about a year ago and outlined the mission of the

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Speaker 1: Amphibian Foundation and and uh and you know what what

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Speaker 1: whin It's work and the work of other amphibian conservation

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Speaker 1: groups are so important. A year later, have there been

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Speaker 1: any like really you know, great success stories, any new challenges?

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Speaker 1: You know, well, what what what is it like? A

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Speaker 1: year later in the realm of amphibian conservation. Well, thanks,

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Speaker 1: that's a great question, and a lot has happened in

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Speaker 1: the last year. I'm happy to say, Uh, the Amphibian

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Speaker 1: Foundation has grown a lot. We've recruited lots of passionate

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Speaker 1: staff and interns and volunteers. I think we're up over

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Speaker 1: eighty now, so that's exciting. UM. We have been expanding

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Speaker 1: our conservation programs as well. Now. I believe I mentioned

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Speaker 1: last time that the majority of our captive propagation animals

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Speaker 1: were hatched recently. So unfortunately I can't relay any success

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Speaker 1: with our captive breeding program AMPS because the animals are

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Speaker 1: still very very young. UM. But in the light of that,

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Speaker 1: we've we've expanded our facilities so we have UM lots

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Speaker 1: of capacity for rearing endangered amphibians and are very hopeful

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Speaker 1: we'll have some captive breathing success very soon. And in

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Speaker 1: the last episode that that we are connected with you, you

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Speaker 1: you talked to you know about the the challenges that

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Speaker 1: are faced by so many of these species facing endangerment

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Speaker 1: and extinction and how susceptible they are to to pollution

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Speaker 1: and environmental dangers, a large part because of the fact

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Speaker 1: that they breathe through their skin. Yes, Um, they are

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Speaker 1: a beacon for us. You know, Um, you'll never see

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Speaker 1: an amphibian drink, for example, they just absorb it all

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Speaker 1: right through their skin. So anything that we've done to

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Speaker 1: the environment or put in the environment is absorbed into

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Speaker 1: the amphibians and they are responding. You know, they have

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Speaker 1: um well documented UH bonds is to agricultural chemicals. For example,

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Speaker 1: where animals can can develop extra limbs or no limbs.

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Speaker 1: These aren't injuries, they're just not developing their limbs properly.

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Speaker 1: So that's pretty terrifying. And it's also very well documented

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Speaker 1: that certain agricultural chemicals will effeminize male amphibians, so that

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Speaker 1: large populations are are biased towards female or or I

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Speaker 1: think even entirely female, depending on the dosage. And of course,

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Speaker 1: another big challenge in our environment is climate change and

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Speaker 1: uh the various effects of climate change, including extreme weather,

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Speaker 1: and I understand you have an angle on this to

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Speaker 1: discuss with us here today. Absolutely so our primary focus,

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Speaker 1: or our first focus has been on the flatwood salamander

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Speaker 1: and they're a coastal plaine species and so as we

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Speaker 1: are developing tools to produce animals for release into the wild.

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Speaker 1: Our partners are working on storing habitat and basically, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, following the models and not really considering areas

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Speaker 1: that are expected to be under seawater in the next

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Speaker 1: fifty years UM. And that that you know, some of

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Speaker 1: the last known sites today are predicted to be under seawater.

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Speaker 1: And the last known viable population is considered to be

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Speaker 1: at St. Mark's National Wildlife Refuge, and which suffered a

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Speaker 1: direct hit from Hurricane Michael and inundated a good portion

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Speaker 1: of their breeding sites with seawater. So, you know, amphibians

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Speaker 1: are believed to be intolerant of seawater, so we had

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Speaker 1: to wait to see what the effects might be on

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Speaker 1: these salamanders. UM. So our partners U s g S

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Speaker 1: in the US Fish and Wildlife Service, we're monitoring these wetlands,

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Speaker 1: watching as the seawater subsided, and we're actually able to

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Speaker 1: find some salamanders, which is really surprising because flatwood salamanders

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Speaker 1: do not tolerate much change to their habitat um their

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Speaker 1: long leaf pine endemics, and they like it the way

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Speaker 1: it's historically been. But you know, they did not seem

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Speaker 1: to suffer. It'll be a while before we know for sure,

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Speaker 1: but it certainly did not kill all the flat with salamanders.

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Speaker 1: But living on St. Mark's for however long they've been there,

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Speaker 1: conceivably they've been inundated with seawater before, but it was

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Speaker 1: pretty scary for a while. So on one hand, they

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Speaker 1: might be more resilient than originally thought as far as

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Speaker 1: seawater is concerned. It's it's possible, it's and I say

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Speaker 1: that's surprising because we've been finding that they are not

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Speaker 1: tolerant towards other alterations to their habitat. So um, it's

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Speaker 1: I guess that is a part of their natural cycle,

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Speaker 1: and grateful that it didn't end up being as catastrophic

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Speaker 1: as we had feared. But of course that cyclical explore

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Speaker 1: exposure to salt water as opposed to to like permanent

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Speaker 1: environmental change due to rising sea levels. Correct Um, we're

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Speaker 1: still expecting that sometime, if we go on our current trajectory,

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Speaker 1: that St. Mark's will will not be suitable indefinitely. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And so we're looking towards more inland sites for restoration

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Speaker 1: and to repopulate with flat with salamanders. And how many

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Speaker 1: and how many animals do you have on site specimens

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Speaker 1: of the of this species. Yeah. So the frosted flat

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Speaker 1: with salamander that we're working with has been split in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight into two genetic clades, visually indistinguishable. UM.

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Speaker 1: But there's the Atlantic clade UM, which extended from South

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Speaker 1: Carolina down through Georgia and into northeastern Florida. UM. There's

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Speaker 1: one known wetland left with the Atlantic clay frosted flat

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Speaker 1: with salamanders. UM. Those are from Fort Stewart and Georgia

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Speaker 1: military base that I've personally been surveying since two thousand

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Speaker 1: and twelve. Uh, and it's blinking out. So in all

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Speaker 1: of these years, we had established a colony of three animals.

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Speaker 1: Okay UM. This year we detected forty larvae and that

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Speaker 1: was considered a huge success UM, and so we were

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Speaker 1: able to increase our captive population UM. And so obviously

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Speaker 1: when you're just trying to breed the animals, you know,

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Speaker 1: as many as you can have is great. UM. The

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Speaker 1: Gulf Coast clade, which includes Saint Mark's and Apological National Forest,

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Speaker 1: we have considerably more animals because of the efforts of

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Speaker 1: the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission has been doing

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Speaker 1: extensive egg surveys and so frosted flat with salamander's breed

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Speaker 1: in ponds, but only when the ponds are dry, which

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Speaker 1: is really weird, right, So they come into a pond

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Speaker 1: and if it has water, it's it's not usable for

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Speaker 1: these salamanders. They breed in the dry ponds, they leave

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Speaker 1: in the eggs, sit there and wait for seasonal rains

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Speaker 1: to fill in and date the eggs. So in a

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Speaker 1: in a in a time where the climate is shifting

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Speaker 1: so dramatically, you know, these eggs are getting stranded. They're

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Speaker 1: just drying out in the in the meadows that they

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Speaker 1: were laid in, and so it's been vital for Florida

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Speaker 1: Fish and wildlife to collect these eggs, you know, and

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Speaker 1: when it looks like they're not going to get the

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Speaker 1: rain they need, the eggs have been collected and raised

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Speaker 1: on the grounds there and then just released after they've metamorphosed.

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Speaker 1: But a portion of them, forty four of them were

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Speaker 1: brought as egg to the Amphibian Foundation where we hatched

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Speaker 1: them out last year. So that was a significant boost

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Speaker 1: to our captive program. And I'm happy to say they're

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Speaker 1: they are doing well and seemed to be acclimating. Well,

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Speaker 1: so we just hope that they grow and then you know,

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Speaker 1: get in the mood for love and make some baby

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Speaker 1: salamanders for us. That's that's excellent. That is good to hear. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned some of these some of these organizations

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Speaker 1: they did and UM and in groups that you're already

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Speaker 1: working with, you have any new partners you would like

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Speaker 1: to highlight, Yes, thank you. UM. This year, we we've

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Speaker 1: joined forces with the Memphis who yes, UM and great

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Speaker 1: passionate and very supportive group. And we applied and received

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Speaker 1: a grant to extend our our outdoor laboratory. So we

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Speaker 1: have twenty artificial wetlands set up for breeding endangered amphibians. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And through the Memphis who were extending that to thirty UM.

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Speaker 1: And so that greatly increases our chances. Now those those

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Speaker 1: extra ten will be focused on gopher frogs, which is

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Speaker 1: a very very rare frog here in the southeast. UM.

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Speaker 1: A few habitats remaining. UM. So we're excited to UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, have the suburbs of Atlanta echoing with the

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Speaker 1: snoring calls of gopher frogs in the evenings and wonder

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Speaker 1: what the neighbors are going to say about that. So

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Speaker 1: they have a they have a distinctive call. Yes it's

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Speaker 1: it's a little bit obscene, but it sounds it sounds

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Speaker 1: like a lot loud snore, especially when lots of males

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Speaker 1: are calling it once interesting And so they're hopefully going

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Speaker 1: to be Are there ever going to be some on

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Speaker 1: site in Memphis? Is that the planner? They just supporting

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Speaker 1: the efforts here in Atlanta. Um, they are, they are

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Speaker 1: supporting the efforts. But also, um, you know teams from

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Speaker 1: Memphis who has already come down to collect sperm from

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Speaker 1: our go for frogs to cryo banquets so that this

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Speaker 1: can be used and for future conservation efforts. So um,

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Speaker 1: it's just the beginning of a really great partnership with

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Speaker 1: that zoo. Cool. I was born in Memphis, Tennessee, so

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Speaker 1: I have a lot of memory early memories going to

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Speaker 1: that zoo and and then traveling back to that zoo

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Speaker 1: when I was a little older but still living in Tennessee.

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Speaker 1: So scream. And then on the research front, I understand

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Speaker 1: you have an exciting new bridge program. Yes I do,

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Speaker 1: or I would like to talk about it. Um. So

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Speaker 1: I am not a nonprofit administrator by trade, UM I'm

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Speaker 1: an amphibian biologist, but I have not had any time

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Speaker 1: in the last three years to really pursue that. Administrating

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Speaker 1: the foundation has been my primary focus, and I don't

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Speaker 1: see that changing anytime soon. UM. So we're meanwhile, we're

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Speaker 1: losing out on a lot of important contributions scientifically and

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Speaker 1: um in the conservation world for the species that we're

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Speaker 1: working with. So we've been able to develop starting this January,

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Speaker 1: an official research program with a director of Research UM

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Speaker 1: Dr Tobias Landberg will be heading it and UM what

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Speaker 1: we've decided to do with it is to build a

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Speaker 1: bridge program, which is it allows us to work a

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Speaker 1: very extremely mentored relationship with people that are interested in

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Speaker 1: coming and gaining a semester or to semester long experience

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Speaker 1: hands on working with very endangered species in conservation biology

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Speaker 1: and UM functional ecology and other really interesting aspects. So

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Speaker 1: not only will we be able to finally contribute with

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Speaker 1: the important efforts that were undertaking, but we'll be able

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Speaker 1: to train people and give a very important experience to

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Speaker 1: those who might not want to commit to a full

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Speaker 1: graduate study or even to college. So we'll be targeting

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Speaker 1: high school graduates and undergraduates who might want to spend

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Speaker 1: some time with us. It's very exciting. Oh yes. Now,

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Speaker 1: another thing I just have to ask a question about

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Speaker 1: is that I've been following online and I got to

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Speaker 1: see part of it in person when you're starting to

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Speaker 1: set it up. But you have a new uh tropical

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Speaker 1: frog rain chamber uh there at the foundation. Uh, And

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Speaker 1: I've just been really impressed just to hear about all

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Speaker 1: that's going into it and then to see uh images

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Speaker 1: of the finish set up. Can you tell everybody a

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Speaker 1: little bit about this. I mean, I've I've never kept

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Speaker 1: anything more than like a goldfish in a tank, and

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Speaker 1: so I was just astounded by the amount of work

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Speaker 1: that goes into one of these enclosures. Uh. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a project that we're very proud of and it's um

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Speaker 1: you know, the Amphibian Foundation is not open to the

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Speaker 1: public generally, but we do have a classroom with lots

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Speaker 1: of events inside in this rain chamber is inside of

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Speaker 1: that classroom and it's eight ft tall and six ft

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Speaker 1: wide and and it's beautiful, you know. So this is

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Speaker 1: um a lot of planning and it took months to build,

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Speaker 1: but it's complete and it was sponsored the hardware, the tank,

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Speaker 1: the filters, the lights, and all of that was sponsored

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Speaker 1: by Zilla, and then a local company, sun Pet, donated

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Speaker 1: some verally beautiful driftwood pieces and really uh make it

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Speaker 1: very very beautiful. Uh. So the point is is that

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Speaker 1: every every weather climatic parent parameter can be controlled by us,

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Speaker 1: so we can really suit it for the needs of

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Speaker 1: any tropical species, even the montane high altitude species. We

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Speaker 1: can cool it down to the fifties in their raise

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Speaker 1: it up to the eighties, can rain as often as

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Speaker 1: we want, It can missed in there as often as

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Speaker 1: we want, and it can even get foggy. That's mostly

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Speaker 1: for us because it looks really cool. I don't think

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Speaker 1: the frogs care UM and that's important. We can also

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Speaker 1: it's it's somewhat of an interactive um way to draw

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Speaker 1: kids and and people into this thing, because you can

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Speaker 1: control the frog with the fog with a button, and

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Speaker 1: you can turn it from uh pond into a stream

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Speaker 1: with a button. Uh. Certain frogs like to breed over streams,

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Speaker 1: so we made sure to fingure that in UM. And

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Speaker 1: then there's a lot the diversity in the way frogs

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Speaker 1: like to breed and and like to deposit their eggs,

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Speaker 1: so some will breed in the water, which is a

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Speaker 1: typical frog thing to do. But then lots of frogs

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Speaker 1: lay their eggs on leaves over water, so we have

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Speaker 1: a great diversity of leaves. Um, hopefully anything a frog

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Speaker 1: could want to breed in there, and then you know, um,

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Speaker 1: the activities and the development of the eggs can all

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Speaker 1: be witnessed by people that are in the in the classroom.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we also have tree holes there and

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of very secretive frogs that like to

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Speaker 1: breed in tree holes. So hopefully we've got it all

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Speaker 1: covered now that the breeding projects will rotate in and out.

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Speaker 1: But we've carefully selected some very active diurnal frogs to

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Speaker 1: be in there permanently, so that no matter what's going on,

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Speaker 1: we'll have some some very active frogs in there. Um.

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Speaker 1: So we've selected, of course, the dead latest frog on

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Speaker 1: the planet who it is I want to see that,

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Speaker 1: the golden poison frog. And they're young, but they're just

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Speaker 1: starting to stake out their territories and they'll start singing

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Speaker 1: before too long, so that would be exciting. Now if

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Speaker 1: I understand correctly this, This tank also has thunder and

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Speaker 1: lightning effects, so we are working on that, but we

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Speaker 1: do not have the thunder and lightning hooked up yet.

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Speaker 1: But there are certain species that are cued in to

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Speaker 1: thunder and lightning as part of their you know, the

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Speaker 1: real heavy storms. So we can make it rain very

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Speaker 1: heavy in there and then hopefully soon we'll have thunder

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Speaker 1: and lightning because you know, we want to be able

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Speaker 1: to have any trigger we might possibly need that. You know.

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Speaker 1: That's fascinating to think about because when I when usually

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Speaker 1: when I think about animal responses to to lightning and thunder,

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Speaker 1: I just think of you know, our our various pet

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Speaker 1: dogs being terrified, um you know, basically just animals being cautious.

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Speaker 1: And I never really thought about the fact that, of course,

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Speaker 1: you know, the thunder and lightning would be tied in

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Speaker 1: to to downpours and then environments that have like a

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Speaker 1: monsoon season or just you know, heavy rains that that

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Speaker 1: would you know, potentially be a key signal to certain

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Speaker 1: species absolutely, you know, and and most dogs don't want

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Speaker 1: to be out in the downpour anyway, so it's it's, uh,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty funny. Yeah, So for any of our our

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Speaker 1: listeners in the Atlanta area, um or in anyone will

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Speaker 1: find themselves in the Atlanta area at some point if

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Speaker 1: they're interested in checking out the Amphibian Foundation headquarters. Oh

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Speaker 1: what do they need to know? What do they need

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Speaker 1: to do? Uh? Yeah, we we welcome visitors. And again

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Speaker 1: the facility itself, the building is not open to the public,

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Speaker 1: so that but we do have many events that you

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Speaker 1: can go to our website and see our events page.

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Speaker 1: But we are located on the City Park in our

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Speaker 1: outdoor facilities UM the Amphibian Research and Conservation Center UM.

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Speaker 1: We nicknamed that metamorphosis Meadow that is open uh city

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Speaker 1: Park hour so dauntal dusk and we just through a

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Speaker 1: through a grant from Georgia Department and Natural Resources. We

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Speaker 1: have some really beautiful signs out there so you can

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Speaker 1: walk out and see what we're doing. Otherwise it just

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Speaker 1: it looks kind of peculiar. There are these twenty cattle

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Speaker 1: tanks basically that have been fitted with endangered amphibians. But

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Speaker 1: now they have some very beautiful signs explaining what's happening

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Speaker 1: there and what we're trying to accomplish. Excellent. All right,

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Speaker 1: looks like it's time for a break, but we will

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Speaker 1: be right back with more of the interview and we're back.

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Speaker 1: So one of the other reasons I wanted to bring

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Speaker 1: back on the show is to to follow up on

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Speaker 1: a conversation I had with you UH at the Foundation

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Speaker 1: headquarters of several months back, and that's on the topic

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Speaker 1: of unfairly vilified reptiles, UH, because you know, we we

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Speaker 1: we were hardwired to have certain reactions to snakes. UM,

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Speaker 1: and and snakes, I think are the obvious starting point here,

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Speaker 1: and we have we have listeners all over the world.

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Speaker 1: We have listeners in Ireland who you know, generally don't

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Speaker 1: have to deal with snakes unless they want to. And

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Speaker 1: we hear from listeners in in Australia who have have

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Speaker 1: quite a few snakes to to convene themselves with. But

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Speaker 1: here and say that the Southeastern United States? What what

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Speaker 1: what our what's our actual risk level with encountering a

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Speaker 1: snake that could actually harm us, that actually is venomous. Well, Um,

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Speaker 1: thank you for bringing up this topic. It's very personal

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Speaker 1: to me and I have been focused on amphibians my

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Speaker 1: whole life and have always made UM it important to

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Speaker 1: to talk about the truth about some of these reptiles

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Speaker 1: that people just really seem to hate or like to

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Speaker 1: love to hate them, you know. And so I like

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Speaker 1: to give some facts whenever I'm asked, and for here, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the Southeast, when I was moving to Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: I was warned that there were going to be a

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Speaker 1: lot of copper heads um, and so I came in

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Speaker 1: hoping to be able to see some copper heads um.

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Speaker 1: And that is a regularly encountered species here in metche Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: you know. So um, what we've tried to do is

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Speaker 1: just focus on educating people about the truths about copper

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Speaker 1: heads and uh. And the probably the most important thing

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Speaker 1: is just how to properly identify one. So we do

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Speaker 1: lots of workshops. We have copper heads as part of

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Speaker 1: all of our children's programming really and you know, to

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Speaker 1: address the hardwired thing. I think to some degree you're right,

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Speaker 1: But in our experience, and we do a lot of

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Speaker 1: engagement with kids, and they're not nearly as terrified as

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Speaker 1: the adults are, you know. I So I think at

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Speaker 1: least to some degree that is being taught. They're queuing

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Speaker 1: in on how the adults in their lives are reacting

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Speaker 1: to snakes. Absolutely. So for some of our camps, we

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Speaker 1: have and of course in a tectic container. But we

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Speaker 1: have a live copper head and that's on Snake Day,

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Speaker 1: which is Friday. And that's also the day when the

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Speaker 1: parents are invited to come for the last hour and

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Speaker 1: and be taught by their kids what they had learned

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Speaker 1: that week. And the kids want to show off the

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Speaker 1: copper head, but the parents just don't even want to

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Speaker 1: see it, you know, So I think that's very telling. UM.

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Speaker 1: Can you can you briefly describe the copper head to

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Speaker 1: our listeners and be happy to um. So there are

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Speaker 1: some species that can be confused unless you actually see

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Speaker 1: a live copper head, and then I don't think there's

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Speaker 1: any mistaking them because they have a copper head. Now

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Speaker 1: that's well named for that reason. UM. And then when

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Speaker 1: we give UM talks to the public, we usually hand

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Speaker 1: out Hershey's kisses because they have hershe could kiss patterns

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Speaker 1: on their backs and it's the only snake that has that,

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Speaker 1: so UM and we hope that those treats will help

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Speaker 1: drive that home and UM, and you know, they do

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Speaker 1: have a lot of their beautiful snakes. They have a

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Speaker 1: lot of coppery color on them, so they're well named

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Speaker 1: and they also that is meant to blend in with leaves.

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Speaker 1: You know, if they're lying on a bed of leaves,

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Speaker 1: they're practically invisible, you know. And so um, one of

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Speaker 1: my committee members for graduate school has done a very

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Speaker 1: um I've done a study, very compelling study on you know,

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Speaker 1: if if a foot falls near a venomous snake, there's

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Speaker 1: very little chance that they're going to strike you. You know.

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Speaker 1: So um that he did this experiment with cutouts of

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Speaker 1: feet and hands, and hands would have listened much more

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Speaker 1: of a response than feet. So that is part of

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Speaker 1: our program as well as we're trying to encourage people

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Speaker 1: not to grab or try to kill these things. You know.

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Speaker 1: So we have a copperhead rescue and advocacy program here

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta where we took it upon our off so

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Speaker 1: we um, we go out, people can call us. If

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Speaker 1: they can verify that it is a copper head, we

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00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: will come and relocate it. So we don't want people

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Speaker 1: to get bit and we don't want um copper heads

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Speaker 1: to get killed. And you know, so I've been collecting

399
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Speaker 1: data on these calls and only six percent of them

400
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Speaker 1: are actually copper heads. A lot of times they're killed

401
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,239
Speaker 1: the snakes they're just just doing their snake thing, and

402
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Speaker 1: people think they're copper heads and killing them. So we're

403
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Speaker 1: trying to offer an alternative to that. So the number

404
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Speaker 1: of of the the details that you bring up here

405
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 1: are are interesting for starters. The whole. The fact that

406
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Speaker 1: the snake reacts more to a hand than to a foot,

407
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Speaker 1: I mean, that makes perfect sense because it's it's it

408
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 1: doesn't have a limitless supply of venom, and to use

409
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 1: its venom is is itself a risky move And so

410
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Speaker 1: it's you know which which in which case is it

411
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Speaker 1: actually more threatened. It's going to be more threatened by

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Speaker 1: the hand that is reaching into its abode, perhaps to

413
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Speaker 1: grab it. And then on the you know, on the

414
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Speaker 1: subject of it just killing snakes. Having grown up or

415
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Speaker 1: part of my growing up in like in a rural environment,

416
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Speaker 1: I certainly remember it being a thing that if if

417
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: if a suspected venomous snake was encountered, it was like

418
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: an adult's job to kill it um and to go

419
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: after it and you know, chop it up. The idea,

420
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: I guess being that it would it would just actively

421
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: hunt us down or something, you know. But but these

422
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 1: animals have a have a role in the local environment,

423
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Speaker 1: even the local environment surrounding our houses, right, and attacking

424
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 1: humans is not their role. Um, So I've I've never

425
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: had that happen. I've encountered lots of venomous snakes in

426
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: my field work and um, including in the everglades, which

427
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: is not too shabby place to find venomous snakes. And UM,

428
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: they've never had one attack. I have them either retreat

429
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,959
Speaker 1: or UM show me very politely that they are not

430
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: really digging this interaction and UM, but you know, they

431
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: do have a vital role, you know. And snakes are

432
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: extremely important for a variety of reasons. Broadly, all snakes,

433
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 1: you know, most of them are feeding on rodents, you know,

434
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: so that's their primary food source, at least for most

435
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: of the snakes that will encounter. And you know that

436
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 1: it's been shown that a decrease in snake populations is

437
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: an increase in the rodent populations. And in the rodent

438
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: unlike the snakes, the rodents do want to get into

439
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: our house, and I do want to, you know, actively

440
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: leach off of of our provisions exactly. And rodents can

441
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: carry disease that would affect humans. And and that is

442
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: also have shown to be the case is an increase

443
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: in tickborn disease, for example, Um, when there's an increase

444
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: in rodents. So, uh, snakes are our friends, you know.

445
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: And I try to really drive home that they just

446
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: want to be left alone. You know, they really don't

447
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: want to attack. Uh. Most of the time, the vast

448
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: majority of the time, they'll they'll show some sign that

449
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: you can out as a warning, you know, Like the

450
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,959
Speaker 1: most conspicuous is a rattle snake. In that rattle is

451
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: just to show you that it really does not want

452
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: to bite you, you know. So and uh and the

453
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: copperheads do not have a rattle, but they will often

454
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: rattle their tail regardless. And that's uh if if the

455
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: tail is in leaves, for example, it can sound a

456
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: lot like a rattle, but it will shake it very

457
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: very rapidly, you know. So copperhends definitely do not want

458
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 1: to bite now. And in terms of the snakes that

459
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: live immediately around us, uh. For for for anyone who's not

460
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: familiar with the Atlanta, Atlanta sometimes we're called a a

461
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: city in a forest. Uh. You know, we have a

462
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: fair amount of of vegetation and uh, and my my

463
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 1: home in particular, is surrounded by a number of big trees.

464
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: It's not that huge of a yard or anything. But

465
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 1: we never really see snakes. But occasionally we'll find a

466
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: snake skin or you know, or occasionally, um, there have

467
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: been a time or two glimps like a small snake,

468
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: and then it's gone and we never see it again.

469
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: Are there are there snakes living around us like that?

470
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: We're just were They're just secretive and we're not going

471
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: to be privy to their their presence. Yeah, that's a

472
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: great question, because you know, you have to really want

473
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: to find snakes to get out there and find them,

474
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: and then it's still very difficult. So if you just

475
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: see a snake, you know, you're you're pretty fortunate here

476
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: in Atlanta, are really any metropolitan area if you still

477
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: have snakes around, then you know, that's some indication that

478
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: there's at least some some habitats still have before them.

479
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: So those are the glimpses that we get. The ship

480
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: skin is a good one because that'll stay there for

481
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: quite a while and then give you some evidence. Now,

482
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: another reptile that I wanted to talk about here is

483
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: another one that I distinctly remember being vilified when I

484
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: was younger, and that's the snapping turtle. Um. Like, one

485
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: of the examples I think I'm mentioning this to you

486
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: already is that I remember it being I remember being

487
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: told that if a snapping turtle was in your fish pond,

488
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: that you had to kill the snapping turtle because it

489
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: was going to inevitably eat all your fish or something

490
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: along those mines. So I remember, like fairly at the time,

491
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: as a as a kid like kind of horrific scenes

492
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: of a snapping turtle being fished out of a pond

493
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: by I think it was a scout leader at the time,

494
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: and then like hacked to death and just left dead

495
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: by the side of the pond, all because there was

496
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: this you know, loose idea that it was going to

497
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: you know, harm the fishing bond. Uh and and it

498
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: seems like they're like various you know, other examples of

499
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: that I remember being mentioned where it just it sounds

500
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: like people unfairly considered the snapping turtle to be a

501
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: nuisance or a menace and then also felt like they

502
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: had increased license to mess with it. You really hit

503
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: the nail on the head with that, um because I

504
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: think in some areas the snapping turtles more hated than

505
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: the copper head, you know. And but yes, I have

506
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: been very involved in in snapping turtle advocacy, I guess,

507
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: um since since I started studying biology. Um. And I

508
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: think one of the inspirations was that someone had brought

509
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: me this was in Massachusetts, but someone had bought brought

510
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: me a a snapping turtle that had been shot and beaten,

511
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: but it wasn't dead, um. And I was able to

512
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: nurse this thing back to health. And the bullet, as

513
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: far as I know, is still in this animal. Um,

514
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: but it was paralyzed on the right side. Um. And

515
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: he didn't snap anymore, you know, so he was he

516
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: lost his snap and uh, I would take him for outreach,

517
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, and I would um talked to people about

518
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: snapping snapper truths about the snapping turtle. You know, there's

519
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: no for example, there's no attack snapping turtle. You know,

520
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 1: they don't see you and then sneak up and attack you.

521
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: That has never happened. They they leave, you know, they

522
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,959
Speaker 1: see you and they're they're out of there. And and

523
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: we can also show people how to approach a snapping

524
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: turtles safely, you know, so that you know, um, this

525
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: this turtle I'm mentioning, his name was Vito, and Vito

526
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: wasn't about twenty five pounds, so kind of average. Wait

527
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: for a huge snapper you might see out on the road.

528
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: And you know, anybody can can safely move one of

529
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: these things, because occasionally that happens as well. It's like

530
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: someone's trying to help the turtle and and it's snapping.

531
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: Turtles also don't know how to show appreciation there being

532
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 1: so but it's it's it's all about being safe and

533
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: respecting the animal and and um and acknowledging the truths

534
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: around these because obviously people are fascinated by them, but

535
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: then there are those that do really enjoy putting a

536
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: hate on them or killing them or whatever. So I mean,

537
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: obviously I can see where the fascination comes from, because

538
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: they are fascinating creatures. You know, they have this this

539
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: kind of you know, ferocious nature, seemingly ferocious nature up close.

540
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: You know they're like little tanks. But but where does

541
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: this where do you think this this other side of

542
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: it comes from, Like this idea that a that a

543
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: snapping turtle would be, you know, an enemy of the

544
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: wild because you know, like you said they're not they're

545
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: not seeking us out right, Yeah, they're not. Um. I

546
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: think part of it is that for certain parts of

547
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: the year, the female travel to lay their eggs, and

548
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: so they're not in the water, and I think that's

549
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: when a lot of the interactions happen. So most of

550
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: the time, when you see a snapping turtle out of

551
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: the water, that's a female either going to lay her

552
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: eggs or returning from laying her and she just wants

553
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: to get back to her muck, you know. But that's

554
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: when a lot of the interactions happen. And so you know,

555
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: I've been told so many stories about people putting broomsticks

556
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: in their faces and stuff. And I don't know how

557
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: I would react if someone stuck a broomstick phase, but

558
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: it would would not be positive. But you know, make

559
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: no mistakes, snapping turtles bite and they bite hard. I

560
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: would not want to get bitten by a snapping turtle.

561
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: But you know, one of the myths is that they

562
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: will bite your hand off or your finger. It's been

563
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: proven that they lack the jaw strength to do anything

564
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: like that, removing a digit. I'm not saying it won't

565
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: be pleasant, but you know, if you if someone's talking

566
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: about that or biting up roomstick in half, then they're

567
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: talking about a different species, the alligator snapper, which is

568
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: very rare and very secretive, and I don't think most

569
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 1: people interact with those. It's the common snapper. Then his uh,

570
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:21,879
Speaker 1: it lives in infamy and his pretty persecuted. Here yeah yeah,

571
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: and like another myth I remember hearing as a kid

572
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: was that, uh, this just grotesque to to think about.

573
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: But the idea that if you were to put your

574
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: palm out to the snapping turtle, it would not be

575
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: able to and you kept your palm flat, the snapping

576
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,959
Speaker 1: turtle would not be able to bite your palm, which

577
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: sounds like a terrible idea. This sounds just like a

578
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: story that originated with the you know, drunken idiots messing

579
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: um with a turtle um. And then one that I

580
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: didn't didn't know about until until recently, I think feel

581
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: one of your your outreach episodes was this myth involving

582
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: snapping turtles and thunder and lightning. Can you tell us

583
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: about that? Well? Yes, so, um, I haven't heard those

584
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 1: until relatively recently. But I would never put my palm

585
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: up to a snapping turtle. Well, um and then yeah,

586
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: I'm not sure where the thunder and lightning came in,

587
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: but I can't imagine that is based on any actual evidence.

588
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,479
Speaker 1: But without knowing more, I wouldn't want to say too much.

589
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: But um, they seem to be out and about regardless

590
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: of the weather, so I don't think there's anything to it,

591
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: but I could be wrong. Yeah, I think the version

592
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: I heard was that if a snapping turtle were to

593
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: bite you while it thundered, it wouldn't let go until

594
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: it thundered. I've done something that sounds completely ridiculous, and

595
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: I know has snapping turtles bite is very quick but

596
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 1: very powerful, so I don't think. Yeah, I've never had

597
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: them by anything and hold on for very long this

598
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: um uh and and it's really one of their last

599
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: lines of defense. So snapping turtle on land is an

600
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: awkward beast. You know, they're not comfortable, so like they

601
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 1: literally they're not messing around. They're just trying to get

602
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: to where they're going and it's going to be water.

603
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: Uh and so they're they're also very vulnerable. So snapping turtles,

604
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever seen the underside of

605
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: one but there's it's all flesh. It looks kind of

606
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: like they're wearing a bikini that's too small. It doesn't

607
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: have as much plate as Yeah, so there's lots there

608
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: are a lot of vulnerability abilities there. And um, so

609
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: they will a lot of times they'll back up to

610
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: you if they see you. They'll point the back of

611
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: their shell at you because that's where the serrations are

612
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: and it's pointing so that I can see how that

613
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: would be effective for a predator, you know. Um and

614
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: if that doesn't work and you're near the business end,

615
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: if it snapping turtle, it'll bite and they have a

616
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: very long long neck. Now, aside from just the the

617
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: you know, the obvious fact that we should not be

618
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: cruel to snapping turtles and and actively provoke snapping turtles,

619
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: what what is their their role in in a local environment? Like,

620
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: what what is the what is the how do they

621
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: benefit the local environment? Um? Yeah, great, snapping turtles are

622
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: not the incredible hunters that most people think they are.

623
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: You know. So they do a lot of they'll eat carrying,

624
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 1: you know, things that have died, things that are obviously

625
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: easier to catch if they're already dead. Um. Surprisingly, vegetation

626
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 1: is a big part of a snapping turtles tyed too,

627
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: So part of what they do is is eat those

628
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: types of things, but also dredge up. They stir up

629
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: the bottoms of a lot of these wetlonds, which is

630
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 1: important to keep the wellands healthy. I would if I

631
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: had upon in my property, I would encourage the snapping

632
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 1: turtles because they are keeping um some of the weaker, slower,

633
00:37:54,440 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: dying or dead animals eaten and also, um know, stirring up,

634
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: keeping the bottom the basin of these well and is

635
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: healthy as well. Now you mentioned earlier you know there's

636
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: a safe way to approach them. Uh what what? What

637
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: are the like? When? When is it? Is it ever

638
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: a good idea to approach snapper turtle just in cases

639
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: where it's on the road or well, yeah, on the

640
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,439
Speaker 1: road is a big one. Um So if people were

641
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: interested in doing that, UM, first make sure you're safe,

642
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: don't step into traffic or anything like that. Um. But

643
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 1: you you certainly want to put the snapper in the

644
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: direction it was heading. And the reason for that is

645
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 1: that if you put it in the opposite direction, it's

646
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: going to turn around across the road again. Because they're

647
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: like I said before, they're they're never just wandering. They

648
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: know where they're going and where they need to go. UM.

649
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: And then there's two ways that people pick up snapping turtles.

650
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: My way is to have to approach it from behind.

651
00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: It's very important, um and even the largest, fastest, most

652
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: aggressive snapping turtles aren't as fast as as not even close.

653
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: So you can get behind the snapping turtle and I

654
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: put my hand underneath its tail, on the plaster on

655
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 1: the belly shell and lift while simultaneously holding the base

656
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: of the tail. You can't grab a snapping turtle from

657
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: the tail exclusively without risking permanent injury to the vertebrae.

658
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 1: That's the tail is the vertebrae, so the majority of

659
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: the weight is going to be um For me. I

660
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: use my non dominant hand underneath the turtle and just

661
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: hoist that sucker. And I've been able to lift um,

662
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: you know, pretty good size over forty pounds snapping turtles.

663
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: That way, you don't necessarily have to lift them up

664
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: very high, just enough to scoot them off. And just remember,

665
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: they're never gonna thank you for that service. All right,

666
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: it looks like it's time for a break to hear

667
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: from our sponsor. But we will be right back with

668
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: more of this interview, and we return now when we're

669
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: talking about stamming turtles and also the venomous snakes. To

670
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: what degree are they are these various species protected by

671
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: by state and federal laws. UM. Federal laws. I don't

672
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: know if any legislation UM. In Massachusetts, at least when

673
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: I lived there it was a while ago, but the

674
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: snapping turtle enjoyed no protections. UM. That may have changed

675
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: since the nineties. In Georgia, It's really interesting because venomous

676
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: snakes have no protections on them, um, but all of

677
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: the native non venomous snakes do so. UM. Technically, people

678
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 1: that are killing non venomous snakes thinking their copperheads are

679
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: breaking state law. UM. And then and then the venomous

680
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 1: snakes have no, um, no protection at all. Eastern diamond

681
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: banks are are not doing well, so there's a good

682
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: chance that they could be protected in the future. And

683
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 1: I guess it goes without saying that if anyone that's

684
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: really interested in, say, having a turtle or a snake

685
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: as a pet, should not just go about capturing them

686
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 1: from the wild. That's horrible and uh, I'll tell you why. Um,

687
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 1: there's really two reasons. One one, as you probably will

688
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: depending on the state, be breaking some type of law. Um.

689
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: And to these animals rarely adapt well to captivity. So

690
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: it's best if you wanted a snake or a turtle

691
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: as a pet, and I would advocate for that if

692
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: done responsibly, because that is a gateway. It was a

693
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: gateway for me. It's a gateway for many people to

694
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: get involved in conservation because they're fascinating animals. Um. But

695
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: you can search out captive bread animals that these are

696
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: breeders who are committed to more sustainable practices and are

697
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: producing animals in captivity. So you're not removing animals from

698
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: the wild. That's important. But also these animals just do

699
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: better as pets, you know, than than pulling something out

700
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,439
Speaker 1: of the wild that could have some more wild tendencies.

701
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: But also, um, you know don't typically acclimate well to captivity.

702
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: All right, well let's let's come back to some some

703
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: of the myths again. Um. Firstly, it was snapping turtles. Um,

704
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: you mentioned already that uh that you know, there's some

705
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: sizeable specimens out there, you know, they was mentioned like

706
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: forty pounds snapping turtles. Um, but how how how big

707
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: are the snapping turtles were generally going to encounter in

708
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: the wild? And then how how wild are the tall

709
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: tall tales concerning their size. I've heard some good tall tales.

710
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 1: I think that's human nature, you know. Um, but um,

711
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: the world's record for a snapping turtle, which was recently broken,

712
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: so before it was seventy five pounds, and that's just

713
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: an enormous snapping turtle. That animal had an eighteen inch shell,

714
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: so a foot and a half. That's not as big

715
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 1: as the Volkswagen Beetle like some people claim, or a

716
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: large car tire. Would that be like an alligator snapping turtle?

717
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: That's a common snap Alligator snapping turtles get much much larger,

718
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: so infrequently encountered by anyone, let alone the general public.

719
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 1: That you know, most of these myths are around the

720
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 1: common snapper. Um. Then now the world's record is now

721
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: nineteen and a half inches, and that was an eighty

722
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: six pound animal. That's massive. The majority of the animals

723
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: that we find, at least here in Atlanta, which are

724
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: really large, are in the twenty low thirty pounds. So

725
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: and and what kind of what does the research tell

726
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: us about their their actual bite strength. Yes, So I

727
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: was very fortunate. When I was an undergraduate, there was

728
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: a visiting scholar coming, Anthony Harrell, and he studies bite

729
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 1: force and he needed someone to go out and trap

730
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: him some wild turtles to study, and I was very

731
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: happy to have that responsibility. So I had trapped some

732
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: snappers for him, and he came and measured the bite

733
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: force of these snappers. So when I mentioned and that

734
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: was a I think a forty eight pound snapper was

735
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 1: the biggest. So that's a big, big turtle um And

736
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: it had a fifty fifteen inch shell and so it

737
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 1: was not it lacked the draw strength of the jaw

738
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: strength to do any significant damage to human um. But

739
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,919
Speaker 1: there are some other turtles that that he studied here

740
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: and the at the collection in New mass that were

741
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: good bite with a lot of strength, so enough to

742
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: even destroy his bite ometer, the device he used to

743
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: measure the turtles bite force. But the snapping turtles were

744
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: not even close. Wow. Now, in terms of the venom

745
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: of the copper head, to come back to that, how

746
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: how venomous is the copper head and how does it

747
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: does it stack up with other their venoms and naturally

748
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 1: occurring poisons, yes, thank you. UM. Copper head bites um

749
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: are not pleasant. I mean, I've never been been by

750
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: a copperhead, but I would not want to so. But

751
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: there's been one confirmed human death from a copper head bite,

752
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: so that's very unlikely, you know. So UM, I would

753
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: never suggest someone just walk it off. I would immediately

754
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: seek medical attention. But a lot of times there's no

755
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: need to to um and administer anti vannin or anything

756
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 1: like that with a copper head bite. Uh. Their their

757
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 1: venom is considered very mild compared to other snakes and UM.

758
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:43,240
Speaker 1: Copperheads also lack um a rattle or a cotton mouth

759
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: to demonstrate that they're unhappy. So uh, they're more likely

760
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: to dry bite on the first that that would be.

761
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 1: That could maybe even be considered a warning for them,

762
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: a little bit like, hey, this is gonna go downhill

763
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,479
Speaker 1: fast for you if you keep doing what you're doing. Um,

764
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: so I guess. I mean, like I said, I wouldn't

765
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 1: want to be bit by any of them, but if

766
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 1: I had to choose, if I had to take a bite,

767
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: it would certainly be the copperhead. Now, are there are

768
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: there uses for copper head venom, yes and and um.

769
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: When we're advocating for these animals, we like to point

770
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 1: out that the copper heads, specifically their venom has been

771
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 1: used to attack cancer cells, you know, and specifically breast cancer.

772
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: It can stop that from spreading. So um, and many

773
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: venoms from snakes have been used for our investigated and

774
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: used for their pharmaceutical properties to benefit humans. So you know,

775
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 1: the venoms of snakes are also fascinating. But there are

776
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 1: hemotoxic venoms like like the copper head, and like our vipers,

777
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: rattlesnake and cotton mouth which um can be used to

778
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: treat blood disorders you know, um, other snakes that are

779
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: neurotoxic and some examples, some famous examples of that are

780
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 1: the cobra, but here we have a coral snake. You know,

781
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: those venoms and be used to treat neurological disorders, even

782
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, you know. So there's a treasure trophe

783
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: in there and then in the snake venoms of things,

784
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: uh that we can utilize from from these animals. Well yeah,

785
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,280
Speaker 1: I mean it makes sense. It's a it's a highly

786
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: evolved bioweapon and and I mean, the same can be

787
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: said for a lot of a lot of substances in

788
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: the world that we use medicinally, be at a you know,

789
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 1: a spice or you know, or something else. So yeah,

790
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 1: that that makes sense, and that would be another reason

791
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: not to just indistrib discriminately kill uh venomous snakes in

792
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: our vicinity. And then of course coming back to just

793
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: the the perceived danger than the lack of danger, right exactly.

794
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: So we try to arm people with the facts, you know,

795
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: and no matter what we do or what anyone does,

796
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: snakes are going to elicit fear, you know, and that's

797
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: they're really good at that. But they're also fascinating. So

798
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: when we when we address people with proper information, and

799
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: like I said, just being able to identify a copper

800
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: head and and learning a little bit about their role

801
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: can help, because there are lots of things that are

802
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 1: more deadly than copper heads, you know, like I said,

803
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: one per I think it was back going all the

804
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: way back to the sixties, only one confirmed death from

805
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: a copperhead by but there are lots of other things

806
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: that kill people every year, and huge numbers that don't

807
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: elicit the same fear as a copper head. So it's

808
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: pretty fascinating. So I had, oh during the Atlanta Science Festival.

809
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: For the last two years we've done what I like

810
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: to call the Biology of the Despised series. So we

811
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 1: started with copper heads and we did snapping turtles last year.

812
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 1: I think this coming year maybe we'll just do snakes

813
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: in general. But um, I had some interns from Emery,

814
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: Erica Fisher and Natalie Bauer put together a beautiful presentation,

815
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: and they put forth some things that are more deadly

816
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: than copper heads snakes, and uh, I thought I'd share

817
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: a couple of them with them here, because you know,

818
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: shopping on Black Friday, for example, five and fifty deaths

819
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 1: a year. Really well, dogs thirty deaths a year, vending

820
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 1: machines thirteen deaths a year. Just texting, you know, uh,

821
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 1: six thousand deaths a year, and we should be much

822
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: more afraid of texting than we should have snakes in uh.

823
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 1: You know, hot tap water accounts for forty five deaths

824
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 1: a year. These are all things that, at least by

825
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: the numbers, deserve a lot more fear than our than

826
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 1: our poor copper heads. So wow, So the next time

827
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: we uh, we feel ourselves giving into UH to fear

828
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: of of a copper head or here's someone else of reacting.

829
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 1: We just need to remind them hot tap water and

830
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: vending machines away are wealthy. Absolutely all right, Mark, Well,

831
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show and chatting with us again,

832
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: sore chatting about about amphibians and snappers and UH and

833
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 1: copper heads. Next UH tell us if if anybody out

834
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: there wants to to learn more about the Amphibian Foundation,

835
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: where can they go? Yeah, our website, the Amphibian Foundation

836
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: dot org that has lots of ways that you can

837
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 1: get involved these You do not have to be in

838
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,760
Speaker 1: Atlanta to get involved in amphibian conservation. So we outline

839
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: lots of things people can do uh, and then we're

840
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: on all the social media's UH at Amphibian found excellent.

841
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thanks for chatting with us, my pleasure.

842
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: Thank you. All right, So there you have it. Thanks

843
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 1: again to Mark Mandinka for coming in again. If you

844
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: want to check out the Amphibian Foundation, you can read

845
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: all about them at Amphibian Foundation dot org. Big thanks

846
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson.

847
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

848
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: with feedback about this episode or any other, to suggest

849
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello.

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Speaker 1: You can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is

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Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more

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Speaker 1: podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.