1 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: Share Madonna, Elvis Prince. You know you have made it 2 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: when you just have to use your first name. And 3 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: tonight we have Brett and Alice. Y'all know who I'm 4 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: talking about the Prosecutors podcast. They are brilliant, They are adorable, 5 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: they are smart, and let me tell you something now, Alice, 6 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: when you meet her, you think, oh my gosh, so adorable, 7 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: so vivacious. But then you talk to her and you 8 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: realize pretty quick, I am out of my league. I 9 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: think yet of law school knows what they're doing. And 10 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: then you've got Brett. Brett will come up super nice, 11 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: a little quiet when you first meet him, maybe, and 12 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: then you talk to him and then you realize, yeah, 13 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: I Mike should have done some more homework. But together 14 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: they are just a powerhouse of information. They are a 15 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: solid go to if you don't understand the case, or 16 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: you're not sure what evidence can get brought in, or 17 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: you don't really understand what the prosecution is doing. They 18 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: are a phone call away or an episode away so 19 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: that you can have it all cleared up. And when 20 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: I tell you, this episode for me is so long overdue. 21 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: I adore them, I respect them, and I cannot wait 22 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: to jump into this case with them. Brett and Alice, 23 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: welcome to zonees Heaven. 24 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 2: Well, thank you. That's the first time anyone's ever compared 25 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 2: me to Elvis, So I think I'm going to hold 26 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 2: onto this one for a while. 27 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: Well that's overdue too, are you kidding? 28 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 3: Back? That was like literally the nicest intro I think 29 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 3: we've ever received. I think we can retire and just 30 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 3: play that clip for the rest of our lives and 31 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 3: I'd be happy. 32 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: But you know it's true, And I had people come 33 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: at me and go, you always just brag. Okay, well, 34 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: name something that I've said that's not accurate. Again, y'all 35 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: have been kind to my children. I mean every time 36 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: I've ever seen y'all in person, y'all have just been 37 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: welcoming and gracious and kind. And when you afford that 38 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: to my children, well that's all I got to know 39 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: about ya. So I appreciate y'all on a lot of levels. 40 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: So tonight we are going to be talking about a 41 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: case that is bizarre. It's unusual enough that you don't 42 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: get this all the time, and it's the case of 43 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: Russell and Shirley Durman out of Lake Oconey, Georgia Russell 44 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: was eighty eight, Shirley was eighty seven. They had been 45 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: married sixty eight years. Y'all. I mean, I cannot imagine 46 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: that life was somebody that you've built and now you're 47 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: to reaping the rewards of all that hard work. Right, 48 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: They've got this beautiful home on Lego Coney. And for 49 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: those of y'all that have not been there, let me 50 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: just paint your picture real quick. The lake is beautiful, 51 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: but these houses. First time I went there, I thought 52 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: I can be a squatter. I'm just gonna move in. 53 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: They're that beautiful, and you have the back of the 54 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: yards that face the lake. It's almost like a competition 55 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: who's going to have the greatest landscape. And I mean 56 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: that alone is one hundred thousand dollars. Just unbelievably flawless, 57 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: is all I can tell you. But they've earned it. 58 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: They owned Hearty's bunch of hardy restaurants, so when they retired, 59 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: Lego Cony is where they wanted to go. So Brett, 60 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: now is y'all just jump in because I know as prosecutors, 61 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: y'all have seen a ton of cases and this one, 62 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: I know leaked out at y'all for a plethora of reasons. 63 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you're right. I mean those of you who 64 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: haven't been to Lake Aconi in the area. Allis and 65 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 2: I actually went there for a conference once, and it 66 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: is gorgeous. It is. If this were a Dayline episode, 67 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 2: at some point, they would say, it's the kind of 68 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: place where nothing bad ever happens, just beautiful homes. That's 69 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 2: beautiful lake. You know, maybe you get a robbery here, 70 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: or they are gone wrong, somebody breaks into one of 71 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 2: these beautiful houses and someone you know gets shot or something. 72 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 2: But a crime like this one that seems to have 73 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: been well planned, violent but controlled, is something that you 74 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: just you don't see, not just in this place, but 75 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: really this case is unique and one of those that 76 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 2: will leave you sitting and scratching your head for quite 77 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: some time when you start to think about all the 78 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: little details. 79 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 3: I think that's exactly right. I mean, everything Mack has 80 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 3: said is right. Lake Aconi is at asolutely idyllic and 81 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 3: beautiful and luxurious. However, it's a different luxury than you 82 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 3: would find, say in the Hamptons. It's a quiet luxury people. 83 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 3: You know, people outside of really the Southeast may not 84 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 3: even have heard of look lak Akoni before. So it 85 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 3: is a humble place despite it being a place of luxury. 86 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 3: And when you go there, you feel like you're in 87 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 3: the middle of nowhere. There are beautiful trees, it's very pastoral, 88 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 3: rather than where all the Hollywood stars, for example, go. 89 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 3: And another thing that just boggles the mind here is, 90 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 3: like Brett said, the level of just cruelty and violence 91 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 3: afforded to people who truly seem like they had no 92 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 3: enemies is so senseless. They were a kind couple, they 93 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 3: have friends, they had four children, they have nine grandchildren, 94 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 3: and despite all of this, they are left in a 95 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 3: horrific manner. You know, Russell is the head surely is 96 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 3: thrown into the lake, having you know, been murdered, tied 97 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 3: down with cinder blocks. Really things you almost see from cartels. 98 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 3: That level of violence against this sweet old couple who 99 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 3: was on their way to a friend's party, and all 100 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 3: of this is just absolutely none of the dots seem 101 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:26,799 Speaker 3: to connect when you first look at this case. 102 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: And Alice, that's one thing when I first heard some 103 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: of the details, I'm like, did they hit the wrong house? 104 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: I thought the same thing. That was the first thing 105 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: that this is this is almost and you said hit, 106 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 2: And I think that's what this feels like. This feels 107 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: like Alice mentioned the cartel. It feels like a sophisticated 108 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 2: murder designed to leave little evidence behind that but also 109 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 2: violent enough that it sends a message to anyone else 110 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 2: who sees it and recognizes. You know, not everyone. If 111 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: you're not in the game, if you're not in the cartel, 112 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 2: if you're not part of it, you might not recognize 113 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 2: what happened in this. But if you are, you would, 114 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 2: you would see all the signs. And that's what the 115 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 2: first thing I thought when I saw this was, is 116 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 2: there someone else in this neighborhood, on this leg that 117 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: we should be looking at to see if they have 118 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: some sort of connection to a group of people who 119 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 2: basically went to the wrong place and did this horrible thing. 120 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: And I can promise you whatever is going to just 121 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: leap into your mind and you're going to run with 122 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: it like a movie. You're making it sexier than it 123 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: is nine times out of ten. So now we've already 124 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: said the word cartail, we've already said a hit. Now 125 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: we got to think mafia. Now we've got to think, 126 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, did they see something? And now they 127 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: got to silence them? So again, Now I'm writing for Hollywood, 128 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: and you've got to almost train yourself. Now, Alice, help 129 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: me out. Women are bad about that. We can turn 130 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: it into a movie pretty quick. 131 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 3: No, I think that's right. I mean, I think we're 132 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 3: seeing that in a lot of the cases that draw 133 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 3: a lot of national attention. Typically it's just some senseless 134 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 3: violence here, right, But there are kind of three details 135 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 3: here that really jump out at me in terms of 136 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 3: the sophistication and the sending. The message part is the 137 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 3: hard part for me, because I'm not sure who the 138 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: message is for the fact. 139 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: That's a good point. 140 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,239 Speaker 3: Good point, I mean, the fact that Shirley was taken 141 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 3: and essentially missing. I don't think there was She was 142 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,719 Speaker 3: tied down with cinderblocks, and I think the hope was 143 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:39,719 Speaker 3: that she would never float up. Now, this was a 144 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 3: very sophisticated killer. They probably know that when you spend 145 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 3: long enough at the bottom of a lake, your body 146 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 3: takes in the fluids and you'll eventually float up. But 147 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 3: what it does is delay the discovery, and so you 148 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 3: don't have a ransom out there, You don't have some 149 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 3: like you know, phone calls to telephone booths, like in 150 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 3: the movies where they say, we have Shirley deliver the 151 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 3: two million dollars by cash. If there's any trackers will 152 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 3: kill her immediately. There's none of that. But there clearly 153 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 3: was an intent to make it seem like she could 154 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 3: be alive, that she could be missing. But it wasn't 155 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 3: even to frame her as being the potential killer of 156 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 3: her husband. And so these are all things that you 157 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 3: may see in a Hollywood style script of a murder, kidnapping, 158 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 3: or double homicide. Is there's a reason to make someone 159 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 3: seemingly disappear, to frame them for the other murder, or 160 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,719 Speaker 3: to try to elicit some sort of reward or ransom. 161 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 3: Nothing here, there's no message about Shirley. In some ways, 162 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 3: she's accidentally found. They didn't tie enough cinder blocks on her. 163 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 3: She eventually floated up but days later. And then the 164 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 3: other detail that really sticks out to me is they 165 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 3: didn't want to be found out right away. Because we've 166 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 3: talked about how Russell was beheaded, but the fact that 167 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 3: this killer was so methodical and home to put towels 168 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 3: around the pooling blood to keep the blood from seeping 169 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 3: out into the garage into the driveway to evade detection 170 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 3: chills me to my bone because we know that this 171 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 3: person must know how much the body bleeds. They've maybe 172 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 3: done this before, and again they're evading that detection and 173 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 3: it worked. This poor couple wasn't found potentially for days. 174 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 3: So those things, in terms of like turning away from 175 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 3: the Hollywood movie script, I'd like to and in some 176 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,239 Speaker 3: ways that chills you enough that this isn't some fantastical 177 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 3: Hollywood script. But at the same time, those two levels 178 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 3: of sophistication does point to something more than just your 179 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 3: rage violence you see in many other cases, and. 180 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: See that is why you are so vital. Because the 181 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: towel is the reason that I stopped thinking cartail and 182 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: mob hit. Most men are a to b their crimes 183 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: are also so for somebody to bring cinderblocks, to bring 184 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:09,719 Speaker 1: possibly a firearm, to bring, rope and net and abode 185 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: and know where to take her. But yet they're gonna 186 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 1: stop and in any way try to stop blood from 187 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: going out the garage door. They didn't bring that tible 188 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: that came from their home. So that to me was like, 189 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,719 Speaker 1: that's somebody that's afraid to be caught. They want to 190 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: have more lead time. That ain't a professional. A professional 191 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: would have killed them both right there in the garage. 192 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: I'm done now. I want both of you to talk 193 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: to me about this. I have said, and I've been 194 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: very public. Shirley was treated differently. Anytime I've got somebody 195 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: that spends more time with one victim than the other, 196 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: or it appears more personal, that victim becomes my focus 197 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: because I believe they were the target for the audience. 198 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: They're not gonna love what I'm fixing to say, but 199 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say it, and I want y'all to jump 200 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 1: in it. Don't take nothing to behead. Somebody oj did 201 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: it with no experience. You got a sharp enough weapon, 202 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: that head's gonna go. He was right there. Russell never moved. 203 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: Surely they took from the house down the long backyard 204 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: into a boat on a lake, when at least six 205 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: seven miles knew where on that lake to put her 206 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: because where she was found Georgia Power had cut down 207 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: a bunch of trees, so the trees are just under 208 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: the surface. There's no homes there. You can't boat across it. 209 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: So if they had tossed her far enough they didn't 210 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: think anybody would ever find her because nobody ever goes 211 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 1: over there. She was beaten to death. Again, that takes 212 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 1: more time. In fact, Russell was shot and then beheaded. 213 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: What are you talking about fourteen seconds at the most, Shirley. 214 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: That takes a lot of time to beat somebody to death. 215 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: Put him in a boat, drive them, hook him up 216 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: to some cinder blocks, toss him out. That ain't quick well. 217 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 2: Another thing that I think indicates that she was the target. 218 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: There's at least one report that Russell's hands were bruised 219 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 2: and he actually had some of Shirley's hair in his wounds, 220 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: which sort of indicates that he is attempting to fight 221 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 2: off whoever is doing this, who has Shirley, and he's 222 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 2: trying to get her away from that person or whatever, 223 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 2: and is unable to do so. And then, as you said, 224 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 2: because there is gunshot residue on his shirt, the theory 225 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: is that he was shot in the head and then 226 00:13:54,880 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 2: whoever did that then removed his head. Probably may I mean, 227 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 2: I don't know. This is speculation, but one reason to 228 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 2: do that would be to avoid any sort of evidence 229 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: of what kind of weapon was used. Ballistics that sort 230 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 2: of thing. But if all that's true, then that would 231 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 2: go along with your idea that for some reason, Shirley 232 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 2: is the target of this event, that is the person 233 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 2: that this killer was really interested in. Well, for whatever 234 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 2: reason or whatever they intended to do with her, she 235 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 2: was the person that they started with and she was 236 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: the person that they finished with. 237 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 3: I think you're right to focus on Shirley because she 238 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 3: was absolutely treated differently. Does seem like she was the target, 239 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 3: sadly because their bed was unmade and may have even 240 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 3: been a situation. I think she was known to get 241 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 3: up early that perhaps she had gotten up early, was 242 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 3: met with the attacker, was screaming for help, and her husband, 243 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 3: you know, being her loving husband, ran to her aid 244 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 3: and unfortunately was ended quickly in a quick manner, because 245 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 3: a gunshot to the head is don't know that for 246 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 3: a fact, but there's gunpowder residue on his collar and 247 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 3: his head is missing, and then there's the beheading, so 248 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 3: we don't have the bullet. But if he was shot, 249 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 3: that's not personal, and it's quick. You do that when 250 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 3: someone interrupts you with what you're doing. Now, she died 251 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 3: from blunt force trauma, that's personal. Because in order to 252 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: inflict blunt force trauma, you have to be very close 253 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 3: to someone. It often takes more than one hit, so 254 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 3: it is longer and it is incredibly violent. I've never 255 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 3: had to suffer through that, but seeing someone's head bashed 256 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 3: in is not for the faint of heart. And to 257 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 3: raise your arm and to do it again, there is 258 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 3: a commitment to that, and that killer had to face her, 259 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 3: watch her head get bashed in, and probably do it again. 260 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 3: With all that said, she is the stay at home 261 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 3: mother raising four kids. If you see a picture of her, 262 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 3: she literally looks like you know, Hollywood cast grandmother. She 263 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 3: had ninety grandchildren. She has this beautiful kind smile, perfectly cooid, 264 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 3: you know, gray hair, and she looks like a kind 265 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 3: person who probably says hello, honey to everybody who passes her. 266 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 3: She's involved in her church. You know, she really seems 267 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 3: like just a kind person within community. So what that 268 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 3: tells me is that because nothing was missing, you know, 269 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 3: nothing in the house seemed to be disturbed. This does 270 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 3: not seem to be a robbery. Her phone, her wallet, 271 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 3: I think her phone, kind of her valuables were in 272 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 3: the home. I don't think there was anything of note 273 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 3: missing from her. It wasn't like she always had, say, 274 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 3: you know, some very valuable piece of jewelry that was missing, 275 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 3: So it doesn't seem like robbery is the motive. And second, 276 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 3: there doesn't appear to be any sexual assault. She is 277 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 3: not your typical sexual assault victim. There are very sick 278 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 3: people in the world who it doesn't matter if you're 279 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 3: a tree or inanimate object. They will sexual assault no 280 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 3: matter who you are. But she is not your typical 281 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 3: profile for a sexual assault victim because of age and 282 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 3: the fact that there her clothes were all on her. 283 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 3: She doesn't appear to have been sexually assaulted. So if 284 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 3: sexual assault isn't a motive, which again is usually high 285 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 3: on the list of why women are targeted, this almost 286 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 3: feels personal, as in, she's a stand in for a 287 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 3: mother figure, or a grandmother figure, or some sort of 288 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 3: nurturing figure that may not even have to do with her, 289 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 3: but perhaps she's standing in for whoever the killer has 290 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 3: immense rage over, and she is like the prototype of 291 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 3: what a mother should be. 292 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: I like that, I wrote that down, so I want 293 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: to give everybody just a little bit of the timeline. 294 00:17:54,480 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: Thursday afternoon, May first, twenty fourteen, Russell is captured own 295 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: surveillance video inside a local publics. That is the last 296 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: time he is absolutely on camera or seen alive other 297 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: than once he gets home with Shirley. But I'm saying 298 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: outside of Shirley, that's the last time. That Thursday is 299 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: also the last day that Drmans ever talked to any 300 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: of their children. One of their sons called and they 301 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: talked to him. That evening. The couple was expected to 302 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: be at a friend's house for the one hundredth and 303 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: fortieth runn into the Kentucky Derby Saturday, May third. They 304 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: never showed up. Now, Shirley is the kind of woman 305 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: that if she had accepted that invitation and somebody became 306 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: ill or something else came up, she would have called 307 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: and said, we're not going to be able to come. 308 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: So this couple thought, well, maybe something kind of bad happened. 309 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: There may be really sick. We better go check on them. 310 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 1: So they went to check on them, and that's when 311 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: they were found deceased. So, according to Sheriff Seals, Russell's 312 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: murder occurred somewhere between four point thirty pm May the 313 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: first and six pm on May fourth, when they didn't 314 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: show up at the party, So Brett, I loved what 315 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: Alice was talking about about where the rage was focused. 316 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: I loved what you said about how this killer, even 317 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: though the level of violence was high, was still controlled. 318 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: Tell us a little more about what you see as controlled. 319 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 2: Well, this is, for instance, you don't see there's no 320 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 2: obvious signs of breaking in, which I think is also 321 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 2: interesting because a lot of times if you don't see 322 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 2: obvious signs of a break in, it may be because 323 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 2: whoever it was knew the person and willingly let them 324 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 2: into the house. And we've obviously seen that in a 325 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 2: lot of cases, the house itself is not ransacked. You know, 326 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 2: this was a house with a lot of stuff in 327 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 2: it which would have been valuable. I think this points 328 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 2: against any kind of robbery. You don't see that, and 329 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 2: what you see is the things that they did see. 330 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: Everything seems to have a purpose. So we talked about 331 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 2: you know, the beheading wasn't just an act of violence. 332 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 2: It was done for a reason, and apparently the cuts 333 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 2: were very clean. Somebody took their time in doing that. 334 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: And then you know is these are difficult things to 335 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 2: talk about, but Russell's Head's never been found, so whoever 336 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 2: did that disposed of it in a way that it 337 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 2: wouldn't be found. Also, the fact that her body was 338 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: dumped the way it was, to me, indicates a little 339 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 2: bit of planning for that purpose. We know they had 340 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 2: to come by a boat because there was no other 341 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: boat available, and you would have needed a boat, as 342 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 2: you were saying, to take to take her to the 343 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 2: deepest part of the lake. And you mentioned the trees 344 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 2: being cut down, And one thing that I was curious about. 345 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 2: My understanding is they took her to this deep part 346 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: of the lake for the purposes of dumping her, but 347 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 2: she actually ended up on top of those trees, which 348 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 2: was when reason the body was found. And I wonder 349 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 2: if that was a slip up they did not anticipate, 350 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 2: and if the trees hadn't been there and they had 351 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: dumped her in that part of the lake would have 352 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 2: if she had gone all the way to the bottom, 353 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,479 Speaker 2: maybe she never does resurface, which I think that shows 354 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 2: a level of planning and sophistication the fact that you're 355 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: going to that part of the lake. There's also been 356 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 2: reports and I don't know why the police say this. 357 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 2: A lot of times they say things they don't tell 358 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 2: us everything. Obviously that whoever did this appears to have 359 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 2: known the house. I don't know exactly how they know that, 360 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: but that also was something that I found interesting in 361 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 2: their description of the home, and Alice made a really 362 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 2: good point that I think is one of those things. 363 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 2: It is an avenue of investigation in a case like 364 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 2: this that I do think you need to follow, because 365 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 2: there are cases where someone and you see this with 366 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: serial killers, but even not serial killers, where someone misplaces 367 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,719 Speaker 2: their anger at another person they know it is. There 368 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 2: have been several cases where people in sort of an 369 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 2: abusive situation or a situation where they have a lot 370 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 2: of hatred towards, say their mother, there is another kind 371 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 2: person who was sort of a stand in for that 372 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 2: and is being kind to them, and then they end 373 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 2: up murdering that person in a rage, and it all 374 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: goes back to they can't do anything to the person 375 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 2: they actually have the rage against, and so they're misplacing 376 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: that that. I don't think that is an incredibly common thing, 377 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: but there are many cases where it does happen. I 378 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 2: think that would be an interesting angle to look at 379 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 2: if we're pursuing, if we're heading down this path that 380 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 2: she was the target. You know, we often say you 381 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 2: don't have to have motive to prove a case, and 382 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 2: that's absolutely true. But I think in order to solve 383 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 2: this case you probably need to fit. You're out the motive. 384 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: I cannot agree with that more. And you know the 385 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: thing is when you look at Russell, he's killed before 386 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: he's beheaded, So again, is his head taken so that 387 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: they can prove they did what they're getting paid to do. 388 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: Or between the house and where Shirley was found, was 389 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: it tossed? Were they going to go back and get 390 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: him and they're interrupted? Were they trying to hide both 391 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: of them and failed? I believe they left at night 392 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: because again I live on a lake. You know people's boats, 393 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: you know their activities. You know a lot of times 394 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: if they're having a party or people visiting, you can 395 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 1: watch the way somebody drives a boat and know what 396 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: they've ever done it before. So these folks with these houses, 397 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: if somebody in the broad daylight was on a boat 398 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: that nobody recognized and they were alone, somebody would have 399 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 1: seen that nobody's whole boat. And in the cove where 400 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,360 Speaker 1: they live, you have to pass two houses to get 401 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: to their dock. Only one person was at home. The 402 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: other house was empty, and a lot of these folks, y'all, 403 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: these are their second home, so there's not always somebody 404 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: in them, but for the folks that are home, for 405 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: the folks that are out fishing. I believe it was 406 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: done at night. What do y'all think. 407 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 2: I would be interested to know if you know if 408 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 2: anyone reported hearing a boat, because boats are pretty loud 409 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 2: and at night. If you've ever been to the lake 410 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 2: or stayed the lake, if somebody's driving around on the 411 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 2: lake at night, you hear it because sound travels. 412 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: Well over water. 413 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 2: Boats are loud, and that late at night, it's not 414 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 2: that usual to have people out boating. I would be 415 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: curious if anyone heard anything, even if they didn't see anything. 416 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 3: No ear witnesses have come forward, and that's interesting because 417 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 3: we suspect that a gun went off as well. But 418 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 3: like you said, this is a second home area. There 419 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 3: are a lot of trees. The water, depending on what 420 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 3: it's like, can reflect sound, but the amount of trees 421 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 3: around can also muffle or someone may mistake that one shot. 422 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 3: If it was just one shot, and it seems like 423 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 3: it was probably a close range if there was a shot, 424 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 3: so probably no need for additional shots. May mistake it 425 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 3: for a car backfire, or someone trying to start their boat, 426 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 3: or allowed bang, you know, one bang. I can see 427 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 3: that most people may just discount it. If they heard 428 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 3: multiple bangs, that may draw some attention. So I think 429 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 3: the nighttime thing is very It's very intriguing because we're 430 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 3: assuming that Shirley was taken out by boat, and I 431 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 3: think that's the most likely. That seems to be Okham's razor. 432 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 3: Their backyard backs up into the lake, and then she 433 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 3: was dumped there, and I think it would be an 434 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 3: added level of risk to have to carry her to 435 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 3: a car, drive to some sort of a boat dock 436 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 3: area very close by, then to boat out. So I 437 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 3: think it's wrecked that they likely came by boat, and 438 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 3: in order to evade detection, it would have to be 439 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 3: at night. But here's the thing that really boggles my mind. 440 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 3: I think when the police say that this killer or 441 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 3: killers had familiar familiarity with the home. If you've ever 442 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 3: been on a lake, the backs of houses do look 443 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 3: very different from the front. When you do like a 444 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 3: Google Maps to go to a home, it takes you 445 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,199 Speaker 3: to the front of the home, and if you go 446 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 3: to Zillow, it takes you to the front of the home. 447 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 3: And especially on lake front properties, the back of the 448 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 3: home is typically almost more grand than the front because 449 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 3: you have the big tall windows. That is the purpose 450 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 3: of living on the lake is to be able to 451 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 3: look out and enjoy the view. And so when I 452 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 3: see the backs of houses that are backing up to 453 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 3: a lake, they look very different from anything you would 454 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 3: see online. And so if you did not know how 455 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 3: the home looked from the back and know which dock 456 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 3: led to that home, could easily see someone get mistaken 457 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 3: on which home to go to. So that's either one 458 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 3: of two theories that it's a mistaken hit the wrong house. 459 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 3: But then why kill both of them? And then why 460 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 3: not just kill them and leave quickly? Why go through 461 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 3: all this trouble of beheading and then you know, taking 462 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 3: Shirley to dump with cinder blocks? Or this person really 463 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 3: knew this home so well that even in the dark, 464 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 3: without looking at the front of the home, without the 465 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 3: numbers of the home, if it was nighttime, all the 466 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 3: lights would be off. There's not a lot of navigating 467 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 3: to a dock you know, those of you who've docked 468 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 3: a boat, it takes some level of navigation, and especially 469 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,719 Speaker 3: when lights are off. Unlike parking lots where there's lights up, 470 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 3: most people when they go to sleep, their dock lights 471 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 3: are also turned off. Because it's the country. You turn 472 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 3: your lights off to go to sleep. No one's going 473 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 3: to come by your dock, so you don't need to 474 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 3: leave the lights on for anyone back at the dock. 475 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 3: This all indicates someone who is familiar with going up 476 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 3: to the right house, knowing how to dock a boat correctly. 477 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 3: And you do have to dock, you have to tie it. 478 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 3: It will float away in the time that you take 479 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 3: to go into the home, commit the crime that you're 480 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 3: going to commit, carry a body out, which is going 481 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 3: to be heavy, and then load that you know, victim 482 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 3: onto the boat. So the darkness I think is necessary, 483 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 3: a necessary component to being able to carry this out. 484 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 3: And then also that level of familiarity. 485 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: This is bold, you know. I mean, as Ala said, 486 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 2: pulling your boat up to someone's dock is not a 487 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 2: quick thing. This is not like slipping through the trees 488 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 2: at night, you know, parking half a mile away and 489 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 2: slipping through the trees quietly and attacking this person. You know, 490 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: you're exposed. You're on the leg. If anybody does happen 491 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: to look out, they're going to see you. You have 492 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 2: to take the time to pull up to the dock. 493 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 2: Like I said, it's going to be loud. Then you're 494 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 2: gonna have to tie yourself up. Then you've got to 495 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 2: make your way exposed up the dock because usually docks 496 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: are not There aren't trees covering the dock. You know, 497 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: it's it's wide open up up to the house. Hope 498 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 2: that no one woke up, no one heard you arriving. 499 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 2: I mean, all of this is very it's intriguing that 500 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 2: it happened this way. And I think I think Alice 501 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 2: is right, and I think you're right. I think this 502 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 2: had to happen. It had to happen at night, if 503 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: this was a surprise. You know, I'm still considering the 504 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 2: possibility of someone they knew coming to the house and 505 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 2: just and then this happened. And if that happened, then 506 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 2: maybe he could have started, you know, in the in 507 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 2: the evening or the afternoon. Certainly I think the departure 508 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 2: happened at night. But yeah, and and I think This 509 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 2: is a really important point that Alice made, so I 510 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 2: just want to just want to reiterate it. Lake at Connie, 511 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 2: it's not the biggest lake in the world, but it's 512 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 2: a big lake and lakes they have all these inlets. 513 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 2: It is really easy to get lost in the lake 514 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 2: if you don't know the lake. You know, it is 515 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: really easy to forget where you are, to turn down 516 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 2: the wrong area, particularly at night, because there's even fewer things, 517 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 2: you know, landmarks. So I think there's not a lot 518 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 2: of In one way, there's not a lot of evidence 519 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 2: in this case, but the things that had to happen 520 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 2: for this murder to occur, I think are pieces of 521 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 2: evidence that can help direct you to the kind of 522 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 2: person who did this. 523 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: If this was a hit, I'm just gonna go over 524 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: here and kill these two people. I don't have cinder box, 525 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: I don't have rope, I don't have net bags, I 526 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: don't need a boat, and I shore lord, don't need 527 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: to take anybody from that house. And I could care 528 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: less that the blood is going down the driveway. So 529 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: if this is an A to B hit with a 530 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: professional person, none of that happens. We have three separate 531 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: crime scenes the house, the boat, and the water. The 532 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: house we got, the water we got, the boat we 533 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,479 Speaker 1: don't have, and Shirley and Russell didn't have a boat. 534 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: No boat has been reported stolen or missing. No boat 535 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: has been recovered with blood in it. 536 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 3: And so now I'm going to undercut my theory that 537 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 3: this is someone who knew the lake well, knew the 538 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 3: back of the house well, and could navigate to it. 539 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 3: Another thought that would make it slightly easier, but I 540 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 3: would think there would be some cell phone data, which 541 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 3: I don't know that there is. But one thing I 542 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 3: could imagine, if Shirley seems to be the type of 543 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 3: person she's been described as, she seemed like a kind 544 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 3: hearted person, willing to help others, was a motherly figure 545 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 3: to probably many people, is that someone she knew reached out. 546 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 3: And it may have been at night, and it may 547 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 3: have been a ruse to be able to get in 548 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 3: the house, But this way, if anyone saw them, or 549 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 3: if Shirley or Russell woke up to him docking the boat, 550 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 3: there would be an excuse, something along the lines of 551 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 3: I'm lost on the lake, or I'm running out of gas, 552 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 3: or hey, i'm on the lake. I really need to 553 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 3: use your phone, or I need to use the restroom, 554 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 3: or I need to stop buy for a second. Can 555 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 3: I just pop in for a second. I'm so sorry 556 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 3: it's late, and was let in in that manner, and 557 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 3: then something horrible happened, and I can imagine, And I'm 558 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 3: just going back to the fact that she had children 559 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 3: who are grown and grandchildren. But then that suddenly opens 560 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 3: up the web of possibilities of erratic kind of actors 561 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 3: who may not be rational, who we don't know everything about. 562 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 3: But that spreads your social web much further because it 563 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 3: could be I'm your son's college roommate. I'm so sorry 564 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 3: to bother you, you know, miss Derman, but I could 565 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 3: I stop in for this? Oh sure, honey, come on in. 566 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 3: I know it's late, don't worry about it. And so 567 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 3: that could be a way that this person could have 568 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 3: found their way into the home, even if they were 569 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 3: going to be detected with the sound of a boat, 570 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 3: with tying up to a dock and walking up to 571 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 3: the house and not having any signs of forced entry earlier. 572 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: Okay, here's another reason. I think, at eighty something years old, 573 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: you are absolutely a creature. 574 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 3: I have it. 575 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: I think Russell went to bed first. Russell got up last. Surely, 576 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: they said, the minute her feet hit the floor, she 577 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: was fully dressed. That sometimes Russell would stay in pajamas 578 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: all day. Russell's in box of shorts and the robe 579 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: is near him. She's fully dressed. There's a crossword puzzle 580 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: on the kitchen table, but there's no coffee cup that 581 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: tells me it was at night. Walt, my husband. The 582 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: first thing he's gonna do is crawl to that coffee pot. 583 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: So if I wake up and the coffee ain't going 584 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: and Walt's not there, y'all he died the night before, 585 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: I'm just telling you so the absence of a coffee 586 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: cup to me was very significant. The other thing, there's 587 00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: an FTI agent, Andy Smith, and he said, I've been 588 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: an FBI agent for over twenty years, and this is 589 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: the strangest case I've ever seen. Because you've got two 590 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: people that are well off. They've got valuable things in 591 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,240 Speaker 1: that home. They've got paintings and Rolex watches and other things. 592 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: Not a thing was even looked for. So if it 593 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: was a robbery, again they got interrupted and never went 594 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: back for what they went for. But like anything in 595 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: every case we have all ever worked, there's a twist, 596 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: and one twist is they had a son murdered and 597 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: that son was murdered in what law enforcement described as 598 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 1: a drug deal gone bad. So Brett talk about that 599 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: a little bit. As a prosecutor, when you see that, 600 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: what do you automatically have to do? 601 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 2: Well, you certainly have to see if there's any connection. 602 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 2: And in that case, the person who did the murder, 603 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 2: who committed the murder, was found and was convicted and 604 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 2: was in prison at the time of the murder, so 605 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 2: he would be the first person you'd want to look at. 606 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 2: He obviously is not available. You know, I will say this. 607 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: I think when people hear that, their mind automatically jumps 608 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 2: to as you said, Hollywood earlier. You know, oh, the 609 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 2: son was involved, he probably got he got murdered, and 610 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 2: now the cartel is sending a message you cross us, 611 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 2: your family's going to suffer. We're going after the family. Honestly, 612 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 2: Alice and I have done a lot of these cases, 613 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 2: have dealt with a lot of drug dealers. That isn't 614 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 2: very common. It's very rare that something like that would happen. 615 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 2: It seems like twenty years for revenge right exactly that 616 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 2: this is the murder. I don't know if we said that, 617 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 2: but it happened in two thousand, was when the drug 618 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 2: deal went wrong. So the idea that there is some 619 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,280 Speaker 2: connection there, I think is I think is pretty weak. 620 00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 2: You do have to consider it, like you said, and 621 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 2: you have to run that down, but it feels like 622 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 2: sort of an interesting fact, but not a really good one. 623 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 2: The other thing you're going to look into is all 624 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 2: their business dealings to try and see if anything's going 625 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 2: on here. They were in business, like you said, but 626 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 2: they owned some fast food restaurants and they had retired 627 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 2: from that. So it also feels like any sort of business, 628 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 2: bad business dealing or anything like that, bad blood and business. 629 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 2: It's once again, this is a long time to wait 630 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 2: to do something like this. So I think we can 631 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 2: rule out by a robbery. I think we can rule 632 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 2: out a robbery. I think we can rule out some 633 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,919 Speaker 2: sort of kidnapping plot or extortion or anything like that. 634 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 2: This to me, is not a financially based crime. 635 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: Agreed to me. There's two things left, revenge and crazy. 636 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: Never really out crazy, never rule out crazy. But normally 637 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: people are killed for three reasons. Sex, money, revenge, So 638 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: there's no sexual assault, nothing was taken. We got revenge. 639 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: If it's not revenge, it's a crazy person. 640 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 3: And I think the interesting thing about the son's murder 641 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 3: is less so that this is a hit twenty, you know, 642 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 3: fourteen years later, but rather it opens up the type 643 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 3: of social network that they may be exposed to. So 644 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 3: we know that their son had suffered from addiction, specifically 645 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 3: with substances. Those circles run with a lot of people 646 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 3: who may suffer from addiction themselves. They I know, we're 647 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 3: not very close to the sun at the time because 648 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 3: of the addiction, but I can imagine we're talking about 649 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 3: this misplaced rage, perhaps that it could have been a 650 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 3: cohort of their son who was in the same circles. 651 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 3: And here you have a family who has their son murdered. 652 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 3: And for most people's lives is life ending. It tears apart, marriages, 653 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 3: they become destinied, their lives fall apart. But here the 654 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 3: Germans keep it together, right. They continue to be these 655 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 3: wonderful examples in their community. They continue to own businesses, 656 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,320 Speaker 3: they continue to on the outside thrive despite kind of 657 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 3: the worst tragedy happening to that to them. So who 658 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 3: who may be looking at that and being incredibly angry 659 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,720 Speaker 3: that they seem to continue to live despite the worst 660 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 3: happening to them, losing a child in a horrific manner. 661 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 3: Maybe it's someone who knew them distantly. We've talked about 662 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,720 Speaker 3: their businesses. They owned hearties. That opens up a different 663 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 3: kind of service sector population. You know, service sector is 664 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 3: a tough profession to be in because of the grueling 665 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 3: hours and because of the way a lot of customers 666 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 3: treat you. And you can imagine that something that may 667 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 3: seem to not register on anyone's agenda to even report 668 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 3: to the police can really stick with someone to have 669 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 3: a grudge to hold that may seem like nothing. It 670 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 3: may be something as small as they withheld my tips, 671 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 3: or they think they withheld their tips, or they taxed 672 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 3: me wrong, or they knew I was struggling and they 673 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 3: wouldn't booked me for more hours. You know, things that 674 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 3: can be very rational in a business sense, but can 675 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,359 Speaker 3: feel very personal. If you are struggling to make ends 676 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 3: me and you are working a service sector job where 677 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 3: you are being paid not the highest wages, and every 678 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 3: hour you work could mean the difference between putting food 679 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 3: in your child's mouth or not. And that's really hard 680 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 3: to capture because it's not some big event that the 681 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 3: police would be looking for. It's so personal and unless 682 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 3: you knew about it, you may not even know that's 683 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 3: a motive. 684 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 2: And I think Alice makes a really good point. As 685 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 2: you said, revenge is one of the reasons people kill. 686 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 2: But when most people think of revenge, they think it's 687 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 2: some big They think like, you know, you kill my father, 688 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 2: you know, and now I'm going to kill you or whatever. Right, 689 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 2: that's what they're thinking of. But oftentimes not oftentimes, but 690 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 2: it can happen that the motives for murder seem so 691 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 2: insignificant to all of us. You see people who were 692 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 2: murdered for just nothing, and you know, the quote unquote 693 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,799 Speaker 2: revenge could be for something as simple as they do 694 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 2: have this idellic life, this perfect life living on the lake, 695 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,920 Speaker 2: you know, and even that can be a reason for 696 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 2: someone who feels as though they have been slighted in 697 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 2: some way to drive them to do something like this. 698 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 2: Now I tend to I mean, I hate to say that, 699 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 2: I lean towards crazy because there are aspects of this 700 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 2: crime that are so well thought out. But just because 701 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 2: you're quote unquote crazy or your motivation is crazy, doesn't 702 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 2: mean you can't act in a very rational way when 703 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 2: you're committing a crime. But the murder seems so senseless, 704 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 2: just going all the way back to the beginning. I mean, 705 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 2: the first thing we talked about here was a hit 706 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 2: gone wrong. And the reason we talked about that is 707 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 2: because of the senselessness of the murder. It just doesn't 708 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 2: feel like this could have been intentional, that these people 709 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 2: were the target of this incredibly violent, thought out murder. 710 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 2: But the other aspect of that is, as you mentioned, crazy, 711 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 2: crazy can lead you and can lead people to do 712 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 2: things that are inexplicable. 713 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 1: And crazy is difficult to investigate, absolutely because it's hard 714 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:40,720 Speaker 1: to follow the reasoning. 715 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 2: That's one hundred percent, right, I mean investigations, and we 716 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,839 Speaker 2: see this so often, and you see this in true 717 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 2: crime a lot, because crazy can come in degrees, right, 718 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 2: I would argue that colloquially everyone who murders someone is 719 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 2: crazy to some extent, and trying to put yourself in 720 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 2: their shoes and rationalize what they're doing. Ordinarily, it is 721 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 2: going to be difficult for you to figure out why 722 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 2: someone would kill would kill a child, for instance, it's 723 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 2: going to be hard for you to really think of 724 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 2: a motive. And we see that so often in true 725 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 2: ground where people they don't think it could be the 726 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 2: person on trial, for instance, because they just can't rationalize 727 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 2: it out why they would do something like that. So, 728 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 2: you know, the spectrum of crazy here could be pretty broad. 729 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: Is there anything regarding evidence that just slaps y'all in 730 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: the face. 731 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 2: Well, I think the one thing, you know, everybody who's 732 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 2: grown up watching CSI always wants to know is is 733 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 2: their DNA in the case? And that sometimes can be 734 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 2: a difficult thing to answer, because there may be DNA 735 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 2: that's completely unrelated, but we know, or at least it 736 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 2: seems like I And it's been reported recently that there 737 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:59,760 Speaker 2: is some unknown DNA that I believe was on Russell's 738 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 2: s or possibly correct me if I'm wrong on that. Now, 739 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 2: if it's unknown, that means that to the extent they 740 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 2: can get a complete profile. It has been run through 741 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 2: CODIS and there has not been a hit. And that's 742 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 2: where I think the modern miracle of genetic genealogy would 743 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:21,360 Speaker 2: come in. If it were up to me and it 744 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 2: were possible, you know, I'm looking at author them, I'm 745 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 2: looking at somebody like them and seeing whether or not 746 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 2: they can help out. 747 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:32,279 Speaker 3: I think what that also tells us is with genetic genealogy, 748 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 3: you would know if this was a family member. I know. 749 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 3: Unfortunately people always think of does this have to do 750 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 3: with the kids, if does it have to do with inheritance. 751 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 3: I think the fact that it's unknown DNA really rules 752 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 3: out the family. And I think that's already been the case. 753 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 3: They all had good alibis. They were all, you know, 754 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 3: far far from home at the time of these horrific murders. 755 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,960 Speaker 3: But this also opens it up to that craziness. Right 756 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 3: when you don't already have a criminal record, you're not 757 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 3: already in a database. That indicates to me that this 758 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 3: is personal, that this wasn't just some serial killer who 759 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,839 Speaker 3: is trolling the lake at night looking for people to kill. 760 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,959 Speaker 3: There was a reason that they were targeted. We don't 761 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:17,480 Speaker 3: know the reason, but for whatever reason, they haven't shown 762 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 3: their head in other crimes before. It doesn't mean they 763 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 3: haven't committed crimes before, because usually you don't start with 764 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:27,279 Speaker 3: a double homicide. But there could be other things that 765 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 3: were smaller, on a smaller scale. And perhaps they were 766 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,759 Speaker 3: just never caught for it. But I think this is incredibly, 767 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 3: incredibly heartening that there is DNA. We know that DNA 768 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 3: technology makes strides literally on a daily basis, and if 769 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:47,319 Speaker 3: they don't yet have a confirmed profile, you know, there 770 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 3: are very responsible folks in this arena who are looking 771 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 3: at how to preserve this type of DNA until the 772 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 3: technology catches up. So I hope that is the case here, 773 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 3: that there is enough if they can't yet generate a 774 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,920 Speaker 3: profile now, that they will keep it until the technology 775 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,320 Speaker 3: catches up. But because they have DNA, because it's unknown 776 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 3: at the present time, I am heartened that this case 777 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 3: is solvable and we will get more answers at some point. 778 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 3: I just hope it's sooner rather than leader, for the 779 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,759 Speaker 3: sake of the family members who have to live with 780 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 3: this horrific murder and not have any answers at the 781 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:22,919 Speaker 3: present time. 782 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:28,880 Speaker 1: Amen. Well stated, And y'all know me, And when this 783 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,080 Speaker 1: thing first happened, of course, I'm in Georgia, and I thought, 784 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: you know, he's talking about sending things to the state lab, 785 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: and we have limitations like most state labs, and in 786 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 1: a case this severe, I don't want there to be 787 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:46,640 Speaker 1: any well. I didn't personally know share of Seals, so 788 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,319 Speaker 1: I called him. He didn't answer. I left him a 789 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 1: message and I just said, hey, this is who I am. 790 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 1: Here's what I thank you. How to do with that evidence? 791 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: He didn't call me back. So I called him back 792 00:45:58,280 --> 00:45:59,680 Speaker 1: and I said, here's the other thing you can do 793 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 1: with it, and here's the person and here's their number. 794 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 1: And he didn't call me back again. So I kept 795 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,799 Speaker 1: making calls, just filling up his answer machine, saying here's 796 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: a playbook. If you want to utilize it, great, but 797 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 1: there are options above the GBI that can possibly help you. 798 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,600 Speaker 1: And Brett, you already mentioned it. The first thing I 799 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,399 Speaker 1: told him was author them. If you have not heard 800 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,319 Speaker 1: of them, for all that is right and holy in 801 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,400 Speaker 1: this world, call them. They are solving five six cases 802 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:34,400 Speaker 1: a day, a day, y'all, not a month, not a year. 803 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:40,480 Speaker 1: They have got the technology. Doctor Middleman started working on 804 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 1: that when he was fourteen. Now, I met Walt when 805 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:47,800 Speaker 1: I was fourteen. Let me tell you what we were doing. 806 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,840 Speaker 3: Okay, we. 807 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 1: Weren't trying to invent nothing except an alibi of while 808 00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 1: we were out of the house. As long as we 809 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,239 Speaker 1: were that's it. And you know, I think again, when 810 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,319 Speaker 1: you meet these people like y'all have been able to 811 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,719 Speaker 1: do I've been able to do, it elevates what you 812 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,880 Speaker 1: can do on a case. That's what's so wonderful to 813 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,320 Speaker 1: me is you know you can call doctor and doctor 814 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:21,080 Speaker 1: Middleman and y'all. If that ain't an intimidating couple, Okay, 815 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: they're both brilliant and they will help you and they 816 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,719 Speaker 1: will walk you through it and allow you to understand 817 00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,719 Speaker 1: it in a way that you can present it. And 818 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:37,279 Speaker 1: it's an unbelievable thing. So again, I don't think there's 819 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 1: enough we can do, but I cannot say enough about 820 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: sheriff sales. And I just want everybody to know he 821 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,839 Speaker 1: hadn't stopped, he ain't slowed down, he ain't tired. He's 822 00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,160 Speaker 1: got the FBI, he's got phone data, he's tried to 823 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:55,640 Speaker 1: get DNA off a truckload of stuff. He goes through 824 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,200 Speaker 1: and talks to any expert he can find, and I 825 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,319 Speaker 1: believe in my he's going to solve it. 826 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,680 Speaker 2: I do, yeah, And I will say this, this case, 827 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:09,160 Speaker 2: I think is the thing about genetic genealogy. We're reaching 828 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 2: a point, I hope where we're using it in the 829 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,360 Speaker 2: middle of hot pursuit type cases. You know, where a 830 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 2: crime happens yesterday and we're using it. But one place 831 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:22,360 Speaker 2: we see it a lot are in cases that have 832 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:26,279 Speaker 2: taken a little while to solve, and there is no 833 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,080 Speaker 2: downside to it. They are The thing I love about 834 00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:36,200 Speaker 2: them is if they can't get a DNA profile, they 835 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 2: don't run the DNA, so they're going to give you. 836 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,279 Speaker 2: They're not going to just give it a shot because 837 00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:42,759 Speaker 2: they want to be the ones to solve a case. 838 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:44,279 Speaker 2: They're going to tell you if they can't do it. 839 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 2: There's no downside to bringing them in. And the miracle 840 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,840 Speaker 2: of genetic genealogy, I mean it is, it is truly. 841 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,080 Speaker 2: It is like fingerprints were in the late eighteen hundreds. 842 00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:57,560 Speaker 2: It is that big a revolution. So and it can 843 00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:58,280 Speaker 2: solve cases. 844 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,160 Speaker 1: Amen Us, You got any less? 845 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,200 Speaker 3: No, I absolutely love discussing these cases with you, Mac 846 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,600 Speaker 3: because you bring so much insight to this. And I 847 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,880 Speaker 3: think this is a case that, now that we know 848 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,680 Speaker 3: there's some DNA and maybe some other data, that it's solvable. 849 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,719 Speaker 3: And when we do cases like this that feel like 850 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,399 Speaker 3: they're on the cusp of some big break, I think 851 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,439 Speaker 3: the more attention focused on them the better so that 852 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,879 Speaker 3: we can keep them, you know, at the forefront of investigators' minds. 853 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,239 Speaker 3: We always say this to folks. Unfortunately, the reality is 854 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,040 Speaker 3: there are more crimes than there are law enforcement to 855 00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:40,920 Speaker 3: investigate and to be able to allocate resources. It's a 856 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 3: you know, it's a losing battle, which is why we 857 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 3: need to give grace to our law enforcement officers who 858 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,040 Speaker 3: are working just around the clock in order to solve 859 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 3: these cases. But I think this type of conversation is 860 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,960 Speaker 3: helpful to keep this case on people's minds so that 861 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,520 Speaker 3: if anyone heard anything that night, if anyone has any 862 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:02,200 Speaker 3: other information, they can come forward and help law enforcement 863 00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:07,239 Speaker 3: solve it. Because this is unfortunately bragworthy. I mean, they 864 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:11,760 Speaker 3: have gotten away with two murders in a horrific manner, 865 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,480 Speaker 3: and if they are as bold as they were during 866 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,680 Speaker 3: the murders, they're probably pretty prideful about what they've been 867 00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:20,320 Speaker 3: able to accomplish, and they don't want to keep it 868 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 3: to themselves. 869 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,160 Speaker 1: Y'all. We have had two federal prosecutors walk us through 870 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 1: a case like nobody else could, y'all. I appreciate it 871 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,080 Speaker 1: so much, and I'm going to be talking to Sheriff 872 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,520 Speaker 1: seal soon and I'm going to let him know. I 873 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,319 Speaker 1: took a lot of notes, so I'm going to let 874 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,920 Speaker 1: him know all the things y'all were saying. But Brett Alice, 875 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,880 Speaker 1: thank you. Thank you for not just coming on Zone seven, 876 00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,280 Speaker 1: but being a part of my Zone seven. 877 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,279 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having us when we got this. 878 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,080 Speaker 2: When we started doing this and nobody knew who we are, 879 00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,440 Speaker 2: we reached out to you and you walked through some 880 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,160 Speaker 2: stuff with us and talked to us and Cam on 881 00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,279 Speaker 2: our show, and we've appreciated it. You are amazing. We 882 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,960 Speaker 2: love you and we're always always happy to do anything 883 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:04,239 Speaker 2: with you. 884 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:05,439 Speaker 3: One hundred percent of greed. 885 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,200 Speaker 1: Well, I love y'all too, and it's nothing but mad respect. 886 00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:11,320 Speaker 1: So we're going to be able to solve some cases. 887 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,239 Speaker 1: That's the most important thing. And y'all check out the 888 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,719 Speaker 1: Prosecutor's podcast. If you have not, I don't know where 889 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,719 Speaker 1: you've been, but go there now so that you know 890 00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,680 Speaker 1: your life is enriched. Get over there and listen to 891 00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:28,680 Speaker 1: what they're doing. It's important work. And y'all want to 892 00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:30,720 Speaker 1: get an end Zone seven the way that I always 893 00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:37,160 Speaker 1: do with a quote. Immediately when this thing happened, everything 894 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:44,640 Speaker 1: else I was doing stopped Sheriff Seales, Putnam County. I'm 895 00:51:44,760 --> 00:52:00,919 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum and this is one seven, five