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Speaker 1: So if you tune into the podcast, you may have

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Speaker 1: noticed a theme, a theme that continues to emerge around

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Speaker 1: men and boys. What is going on with our men

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Speaker 1: and boys increasingly isolated, increasingly feeling disengaged, disconnected, depressed. Conversations

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Speaker 1: with Jackson Katz and Scott Galloway where this issue was highlighted.

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Speaker 1: We mind the issue not only on the substance as

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Speaker 1: it relates to this crisis of isolation for men and boys,

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Speaker 1: but outcomes, outcomes that are moving in just devastating directions.

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Speaker 1: Eighty percent of suicides, men, dropout rates, suspension rates disproportionately men.

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Speaker 1: You see graduation rates, particularly college attendance and graduation going

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Speaker 1: through the roof for women and girls, but not again

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Speaker 1: for men. It's not just an electoral issue. So often

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Speaker 1: this is discussed in the context of Trump doing so

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Speaker 1: well in the last election with young men and the manosphere,

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Speaker 1: and more broadly doing well with men generally. But the

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Speaker 1: issue is an important issue that we need to dive

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Speaker 1: deeper in and that's just what we did recently with

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Speaker 1: Richard Reeves, who's the founder of the president of the

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Speaker 1: American Institute of Boys and Men, and we had a

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Speaker 1: conversation that really goes to the root of why what

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Speaker 1: is going on not just in the United States, but

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Speaker 1: increasingly all around the world with young men. And this

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Speaker 1: led me to look inward as well as Governor of California,

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Speaker 1: to say, what more can I do? And so we

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Speaker 1: are also putting out today concurrent with this podcast and

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Speaker 1: executive order that focuses exactly on that what to do,

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Speaker 1: not just who's to blame and what the challenges are,

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Speaker 1: but specific tangible actions that we can invest our time

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Speaker 1: and energy into beginning to solve this growing crisis. This

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Speaker 1: is Gavin Newsom and this is Richard Reeves. All right,

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Speaker 1: Richard Reeves, thanks so much for joining us, and more importantly,

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Speaker 1: thank you for your work. And I'm just curious because

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Speaker 1: the amount of attention you're getting is outsize. Obviously, people

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Speaker 1: rediscovering this remarkable book that was extraordinarily well received of

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Speaker 1: boys and men when you wrote it, but now seemingly

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Speaker 1: rediscovered it because of sort of the moment we're living in.

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Speaker 1: But I'm curious what moment led you to this moment,

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Speaker 1: meaning this whole issue around masculinity, issues around boys and men,

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Speaker 1: your own journey to being one of the most important

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Speaker 1: figures in trying to understand what the hell is going

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Speaker 1: on with American men.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank you thanks to that question for having me.

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Speaker 2: I guess the way to think about it is I

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Speaker 2: was spending my days at the Brookings Institution being a scholar,

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Speaker 2: reading papers, going to seminars. You know, imagine what a

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Speaker 2: Brookings Institution scholar does, and that is exactly what we do.

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Speaker 2: Like you read a paper, you go to a seminar,

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Speaker 2: you read another paper. And I was working on issues

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Speaker 2: around economic inequality. That's really been the through line of

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Speaker 2: my work, and in particular intergenerational inequality, like what's stopping

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Speaker 2: people moving up the ladder. I did that in the

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Speaker 2: UK government, which is where I'm originally from, and then

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Speaker 2: at Brookings, and I just kept seeing these data points

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Speaker 2: where it was really a lot of boys and men,

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Speaker 2: especially those from working class backgrounds, boys and men of color,

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Speaker 2: who were driving a lot of the economic inequalities that

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Speaker 2: we were worried about. But I didn't see that many

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Speaker 2: people paying attention to that particular gender part of the story.

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Speaker 2: And then I would be going home and I've got

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Speaker 2: three sons and they're being raised in that you're an affluent,

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Speaker 2: educated household. So they are not the boys and men

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Speaker 2: who we should be most worried about from a policy

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Speaker 2: point of view. But nonetheless they had a lot of questions.

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Speaker 2: They were spending a lot of time online. I think

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Speaker 2: the whole debate about masculinity, the roles of men and

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Speaker 2: women shifting so quickly, was playing out over our dinner

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Speaker 2: table as well. And so in the end, as those

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Speaker 2: things came together, and honestly, part of it was that

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Speaker 2: I didn't think that many people are having a good

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Speaker 2: faith conversation about this. I saw a lot of bad

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Speaker 2: faith discussions of what was happened to boys and men,

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Speaker 2: but not many empirically based good faith discussions.

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Speaker 3: And so that was what I decided to do.

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Speaker 1: And so you're at Brookings, You're focused on issues around

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Speaker 1: middle class, income inequality, wealth inequality. You wrote a book

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Speaker 1: in that space around upper middle class and so give

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Speaker 1: it what year roughly was that that research really started

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Speaker 1: and you started to notice this trend or this lack

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Speaker 1: of focus and intentionality on boys and men.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I wrote a book called Dream Hoarders, which

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Speaker 2: came out twenty seventeen, and it was really about the

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Speaker 2: way that the upper middle class, the professional class top

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Speaker 2: ten twenty percent, we're really pulling away from everybody else,

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Speaker 2: and how that was causing all kinds of issues, and

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Speaker 2: candidly that we, because I had put myself solidly in

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Speaker 2: that class, really weren't taking responsibility for the ways in

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Speaker 2: which we were actually rigging the opportunity system.

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Speaker 3: You think about the.

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Speaker 2: Housing market, which I know you're very interested in, higher education,

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Speaker 2: which you're also very interested in. I saw those systems

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Speaker 2: working pretty well for me and my neighbors in Bethesda, Maryland,

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Speaker 2: where I was living at the time, but I also

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Speaker 2: saw us holding other people out. So I think that

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Speaker 2: was one of the root causes of the political moment

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Speaker 2: that we're in, but also just this cultural moment. And

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Speaker 2: then I looked at it harder, and I looked and

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Speaker 2: I saw, actually, know what, it's a lot of men

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Speaker 2: who are just struggling to rise up the ladder. They're

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Speaker 2: doing worse than their fathers did. I mean, the fact

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Speaker 2: that men without a college degree only earned the same

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Speaker 2: today as that group of men did fifty years ago,

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Speaker 2: like wage stagnation for most men over a half century,

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Speaker 2: is a story, and it's a huge part of that

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Speaker 2: economic inequality, and it's a huge part of why we

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Speaker 2: don't see that upward mobility because those men are struggling,

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Speaker 2: they then maybe don't form families, or if they do,

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Speaker 2: they're not able to kind of provide for them in

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Speaker 2: the way they'd hope to. Women are of course then

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Speaker 2: picking up more and more of the slack because I

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Speaker 2: know something you're also interested in. I think your other

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Speaker 2: half is even more interested in the whole idea of

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Speaker 2: fair play and so on, and so I took it.

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Speaker 2: In the end, it's just bad for everybody if young

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Speaker 2: men and boys are struggling in our economy and struggling

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Speaker 2: in our society, And so that's that's really why in

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Speaker 2: the end, I think just needed a different kind of

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Speaker 2: spotlight on the question.

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Speaker 1: So the question always arises, is this notion of a

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Speaker 1: zero sum game that if we're talking about boys and men,

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Speaker 1: we're not talking about women and girls, and we're talking

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Speaker 1: about boys and men, we're talking about it. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of the historic advantage that goes back you know, hundreds

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Speaker 1: and hundreds, thousands and thousands of years to you know,

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Speaker 1: particularly white males. Why the hell do we need to

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Speaker 1: be focusing on them at a time when women still

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Speaker 1: are struggling to get equal pay. Still do not have

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Speaker 1: the gender equality in the home. Back to the reference

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Speaker 1: you were just making in terms of fair play in

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Speaker 1: the household, women are still absorbing so much of that

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Speaker 1: burden and so much of that work. There's still so

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Speaker 1: much more work than needs to be done for women

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Speaker 1: and girls. Why Richard spend so much time on boys

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Speaker 1: and men.

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Speaker 2: Well, because we can do two things at once. That's

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Speaker 2: my bet, My huge bet here is that people, including

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Speaker 2: policymakers like yourself, are able to do both, able to

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Speaker 2: simultaneously say there's a bunch more stuff we need to

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Speaker 2: do for women and girls, and you've just listed some

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Speaker 2: of them.

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Speaker 3: I'll add one more.

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Speaker 2: I think it's particularly relevant to your state, which is

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Speaker 2: only two percent of venture capital money goes to female founders. Now,

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Speaker 2: I happen to be married to someone who has herself

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Speaker 2: tried to raise money for the venture capital market. So

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Speaker 2: I'm obliged by the terms of my marital contract to

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Speaker 2: mention that in every interview that I do, and you're

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Speaker 2: not allowed to cut that out. And so the idea,

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Speaker 2: and what twenty five percent of members of Congress are women,

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Speaker 2: ten percent of CEOs of women, like the idea that

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Speaker 2: there isn't more still to do for women and girls

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Speaker 2: is crazy, but the idea that that means we can't

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Speaker 2: also look at the fact that the suicide rate among

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Speaker 2: young men has risen by a third since twenty ten,

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Speaker 2: and that we lose forty thousand men a year to suicide,

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Speaker 2: four times as many as we do for women. I've

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Speaker 2: mentioned wage stagnation, that we have these huge gender gaps

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Speaker 2: in education now, a lot of boys really struggling at school,

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Speaker 2: and I was thinking, it's a bit like saying to

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Speaker 2: a parent who has a son and a daughter, or

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Speaker 2: at least one of each, and basically saying to them,

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Speaker 2: you're only allowed to choose one of them to care about.

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Speaker 2: It's almost that we've done that to ourselves as a society.

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Speaker 2: And somehow anybody advocating for the issues of boys and

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Speaker 2: men is immediately castigated as someone who's women, And to

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Speaker 2: be fair, lots of the people who are advocating for

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Speaker 2: boys and men are anti women, right, and so that

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Speaker 2: becomes a really vicious cycle. And just to speak personally

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Speaker 2: for a moment, that was one of the reasons why

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Speaker 2: I couldn't get a publisher for my book to start with.

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Speaker 2: It's one of the reasons why at the time I

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Speaker 2: was at Brookings, my colleagues were lining up outside my

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Speaker 2: door warning me against this issue. And the argument was

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Speaker 2: only reactionary angry misogynists write books about boys and men. Therefore,

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Speaker 2: if you write a book about boys and men, you

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Speaker 2: will be seen as an angry, reaction and misogynist. And

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Speaker 2: I thought about that, decided that's the definition of a

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Speaker 2: vicious cycle. And you've then just ceded all that ground

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Speaker 2: to those very folks. You've created a vacuum. And honestly,

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Speaker 2: if people as people as boring as I am, Governor

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Speaker 2: can't talk about this issue, then we're in real trouble.

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Speaker 2: Like one of the mottoes of my new institute, the

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Speaker 2: American Institute for Boys and Men, is keep pit boring.

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Speaker 2: And as my son, my middle son likes to point out,

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Speaker 2: he says, you're the man for that job, Dad, If

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Speaker 2: that's your mission, they found their president. But there's a

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Speaker 2: serious point behind that, which is that like we need data,

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Speaker 2: we need research, and we need to do it, as

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Speaker 2: you said a moment ago, in a non zero some way,

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Speaker 2: because I think you've spoken about this and it'd be

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Speaker 2: interesting to see how your thinking has evolved on this,

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Speaker 2: which is the question is not is there going to

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Speaker 2: be a conversation about what does it mean to be

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Speaker 2: a man today? The question is who's going to have it?

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Speaker 2: Are you going to have it in the conversations you're

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Speaker 2: having now, are other governors going to have it? Are

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Speaker 2: the mainstream media are gonna have it? Our think tank's

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Speaker 2: going to have it? Or are we all just going

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Speaker 2: to say no, no, no, that's not for us. We

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Speaker 2: don't want people to think we're misogynists, and so we

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Speaker 2: leave the conversation to the reactionary online right. And I'm

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Speaker 2: afraid that if that's the case, we deserve to lose

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Speaker 2: these young men like we can't. You don't create a

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Speaker 2: vacuum and then complain about the fact that someone's pouring

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Speaker 2: into it.

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Speaker 1: I love what you just said. I mean, it's one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons we started this podcast with Charlie Kirk,

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Speaker 1: who's one of the many people in this space that

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Speaker 1: is filling that void. And I want to talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit more, not about necessarily that space, specifically in

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Speaker 1: the minisphere, and talk about your reaction to this notion

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Speaker 1: of the manisphere, just the nomenclature of the manisphere more broadly.

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Speaker 1: But it is interesting to me, just backing up a

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Speaker 1: little bit what you said, I mean the fact that

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Speaker 1: you had difficulty finding publishers for the book that there

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Speaker 1: was so and this isn't that long, I mean you're

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Speaker 1: talking about just a few years ago.

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Speaker 3: Right one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was that kind of reticence around moving this

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Speaker 1: conversation forward or broadening the appeal beyond just sort of

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Speaker 1: a reactionary right wing framework. And you're, by the way,

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Speaker 1: hardly a left wing. This is not a political thing

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Speaker 1: per se. But it's interesting to me. Even your friends

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Speaker 1: and colleagues were warning you against entering in the space.

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Speaker 2: It was seen as very dangerous territory. I think the

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Speaker 2: permission space has really opened up around it in recent

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Speaker 2: years because I just think in the end, these things

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Speaker 2: are true, these problems are true, and if something's true,

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Speaker 2: you can't ignore it forever. And it's become one of

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Speaker 2: my strongest beliefs that the way to turn a real

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Speaker 2: problem into a grievance is to simply ignore it. I

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Speaker 2: think ignored problems are what metastasize into grievances, and so

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Speaker 2: if I'm in a conversation with someone who is mates

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Speaker 2: or on the men's right side of the eye or reactionary.

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Speaker 3: I want them to.

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Speaker 2: Sound crazy when they claim that the governor's, the presidents,

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Speaker 2: the think tanks don't care about boison men, right They

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Speaker 2: will say so, a figure like Andrew Tate or others

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Speaker 2: will say they don't care about boison men. And I

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Speaker 2: want that claim to sound crazy. But the trouble is

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Speaker 2: it doesn't sound crazy right now. We haven't done enough.

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Speaker 2: There haven't been enough policies, there haven't been enough public

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Speaker 2: announcements about we see the problems of boys and men

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Speaker 2: from frankly, people like you, Governor, and from others. I

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Speaker 2: think it's this is a fantastic move, But I don't

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Speaker 2: think it's unfair of the people on the conservative or

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Speaker 2: even the reactionary side of this argument to point to

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Speaker 2: what has been something of a deafening silence from the

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Speaker 2: other side of the aisle on this issue for the

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Speaker 2: reasons that we've already talked about, that fear that somehow

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Speaker 2: you be seen as anti women, but that has just

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Speaker 2: created this seated the ground, and so I don't I

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Speaker 2: my goal is to make the crazies sound crazy, but

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Speaker 2: right now, they don't.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting just in taking you know, a

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Speaker 1: little bit of my own journey on this, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I appreciate your reference to my wife. She's done

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Speaker 1: a series of documentaries, and one of the documentaries, her

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Speaker 1: second documentary, was around Masculinity, was around the issues of

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Speaker 1: boys and men in twenty fifteen, around the same time

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Speaker 1: you were starting to write that book around and in

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Speaker 1: company Quality, she was highlighting the suit rates and the

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Speaker 1: dropout rates, and issues around incarceration, crime, self harm and

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Speaker 1: the like, self in isolation, loneliness. That wasn't a focus

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Speaker 1: as much on what was happening in terms of algorithms

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Speaker 1: and online activity, but it was interesting just that the

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Speaker 1: reaction she got. She did it from the feminist perspective,

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Speaker 1: bringing in Jackson Katz and some of the others that

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Speaker 1: focus on the issues of violence and women. But the

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Speaker 1: reaction to it was pretty remarkable to your point, And

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Speaker 1: even I saw myself on that journey as I'm there

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Speaker 1: promoting the film, promoting the sort of contours of that debate,

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Speaker 1: how uncomfortable it was, particularly for me to enter that debate,

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Speaker 1: and I sort of stepped back. And you're right, I

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Speaker 1: think there's been a huge void, particularly in the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party on this issue, and you're right, these folks on

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Speaker 1: the other side have walked into that debate and they've

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Speaker 1: weaponized it, some more benign than others. But obviously the

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Speaker 1: issues how the politics has changed is I think an

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Speaker 1: interesting part of this.

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Speaker 2: To be fair to you and to the Democratic Party,

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Speaker 2: I don't think it was just the Democratic Party. I

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Speaker 2: think it was the liberal establishment written large, it was

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Speaker 2: the think tanks, it was the media where this was

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Speaker 2: just difficult. And one of the things I've really come

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Speaker 2: to believe about this is that you just described your

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Speaker 2: own discomfort we're talking about this issue, and I suspect

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Speaker 2: that you're still feeling some of that now. And what

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Speaker 2: I would say is good you don't want to lose

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Speaker 2: that discomfort, because I honestly think that it should be

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Speaker 2: an uncomfortable conversation, given the history, given the issues we

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Speaker 2: still have to work on for women, there should be

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Speaker 2: a difficulty to this conversation. There should be a discomfort

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Speaker 2: to this conversation. I honestly think if you don't find

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Speaker 2: this conversation a little bit uncomfortable, you shouldn't be in it, right.

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Speaker 3: I think if you think it's all simple.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, men are struggling because the woke feminists have taken

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Speaker 2: over and we just need to go back, say fifty

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Speaker 2: one hundred and hundred fifty year, take your pack. Anybody

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Speaker 2: who thinks like that shouldn't be in the conversation. But

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Speaker 2: on the other hand, we shouldn't let the natural, in

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Speaker 2: fact honorable discomfort that we feel, and honestly that obviously

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Speaker 2: women are going to feel much more strongly. That should

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Speaker 2: be acknowledged, that should be discussed, but it shouldn't stop us.

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Speaker 2: It should make us pause. It should be something that

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Speaker 2: we get into the room that we say, of course

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Speaker 2: this is difficult, and of course there's more we needed

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Speaker 2: to have women and girls, and there's also this bunch

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Speaker 2: of issues for boys and men. And my experience of this,

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Speaker 2: and I'd be interested to see whether you agree with this,

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Speaker 2: is that if you frame it that way, actually there's

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Speaker 2: a huge appetite to have this conversation, including among the

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Speaker 2: most feminist women out there, because they have sons, they

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Speaker 2: have brothers, they have husbands. As long as there isn't

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Speaker 2: this fear that this is going to be used as

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Speaker 2: a way to go back on women's rights or to

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Speaker 2: negate the ongoing work of women. As long as people

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Speaker 2: trust you that's not what you're doing, then I have

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Speaker 2: discovered the appetite for this conversation is huge.

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Speaker 1: But laying that foundation becomes critical, and that's the central

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Speaker 1: part I think of creating that as you say, that permission,

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Speaker 1: that space where we can have this dialogue in a

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Speaker 1: constructive way. That said as well, I mean there's been

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Speaker 1: that reaction. You know, we've got you know, people like

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Speaker 1: Josh Howley writes a book on manhood and seem to

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Speaker 1: go again in a direction that a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: online have gone. You expressed one of the or least highlighted,

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Speaker 1: one of the more extreme voices Andrew Tait in this space.

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Speaker 1: I think you've written about and talked about even your

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Speaker 1: own kids, the relationship to Andrew as it relates to

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Speaker 1: their algorithms online. Even Jordan Peterson, who you know has

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Speaker 1: had his own evolution or devolution depending on how some

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Speaker 1: people view his perspectives on a myriad of issues. But

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Speaker 1: this issue, you're right, has really come to the fore.

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Speaker 1: Think about it. You know, with my web we have

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Speaker 1: two boys, two girls, and my wife is now the

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Speaker 1: bigger crusader on this saying, what the hell has happened

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Speaker 1: to our boys? What is going on online? What is happening?

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Speaker 1: Why is he bringing up Andrew Tate? Why is he

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Speaker 1: talking about He talked, I'm smiling because when you were

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Speaker 1: writing about this Jordan Peterson, he's telling me about Jordan Peterson.

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Speaker 1: Before I knew much about Jordan.

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Speaker 2: Peterson, my kids were telling me about Andrew Tate. My

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Speaker 2: youngest son, who's now twenty three, said, when I was

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Speaker 2: finishing my book, he said, Dad, you have to write

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Speaker 2: about Andrew Tate. And I said, who the hell is

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Speaker 2: Andrew Tate. I looked briefly at him, decided that he

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Speaker 2: wasn't a big enough figure to worry about, didn't mention him.

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Speaker 3: But of course, you know, of course I was wrong.

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Speaker 2: And it's very interesting how the let's just assume, for

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Speaker 2: the sake of this argument that you and I are

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Speaker 2: both middle aged, right, that might be flattering both of us,

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Speaker 2: but might go with it. Right, Let's take it a little.

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Speaker 2: But we just honestly don't understand. I think you got

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Speaker 2: into a little bit of trouble for lumping together Joe Rogan,

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Speaker 2: Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate.

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Speaker 3: At one point and I don't think you do that now.

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Speaker 2: I think that was a moment where this sort of

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Speaker 2: gauzy blobby thing over there was just hard to decode.

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Speaker 2: But as you get closer to it, you understand that

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Speaker 2: within it big differences. Even I've actually come to think

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Speaker 2: that the term manosphere is not helpful because it's just

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Speaker 2: it just lumps together people who are doing very very

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Speaker 2: different things in different ways, and the young men who

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Speaker 2: are the disproportionate consumers a lot of that content, they

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Speaker 2: understand the differences. And so if we don't sound like

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Speaker 2: we understand the differences, then we just sound like, you know, old.

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Speaker 3: Men shaking our fist at the world.

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Speaker 2: And so I don't know how to do this yet,

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Speaker 2: but there's almost like a bro sphere, which is more

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Speaker 2: like Rogan. It's certainly Chris Williamson, who I like quite

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Speaker 2: a lot, and maybe even you know THEO Vaughn.

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Speaker 3: I've been on his podcasting.

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Speaker 2: And then there's the kind of missogyn no sphere or

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Speaker 2: I don't know what to call, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 2: And they're they're very different, and it's quite important to

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Speaker 2: keep that difference in our minds because otherwise people think

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Speaker 2: they're all the same, and they're really not. What they

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Speaker 2: are all doing is trying to come up with answers

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Speaker 2: to the questions that many young men are asking. And

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Speaker 2: they're doing so with various degrees of openness and fidelity,

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Speaker 2: and you can't you can't throw them all together. And

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Speaker 2: to do so is to again make a similar version

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Speaker 2: of that mistake we were talking about earlier, which is

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Speaker 2: to seed all that ground. Right, just don't don't go there.

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Speaker 1: I love what I think what you just said is

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Speaker 1: extraordinarily important, and in what you also reference, I think

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Speaker 1: is important. What are these young boys looking for? I mean,

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Speaker 1: we you know, we see how they far prey to

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Speaker 1: the algorithms, and you know, you've written obviously a lot

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Speaker 1: about you know what. You know, you know these kids

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Speaker 1: in their body images and issues related you know, a

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Speaker 1: six pack abs or you know, maybe there are gaming

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden then you know they're on

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Speaker 1: an Android taite. You know they're asking their parents for

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Speaker 1: thirty five bucks to become part of his Andrew Tate

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Speaker 1: Masculinity University or some highbred version of that for someone else.

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Speaker 1: But what are young boys looking for?

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Speaker 2: They are looking for an answer to the question, how

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Speaker 2: should I be a man today, and the bit of

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Speaker 2: that that's hard is today it's just much harder, and

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Speaker 2: that has that question is being asked with an urgency,

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Speaker 2: which is new. It's not that it hasn't always had

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Speaker 2: to be asked to some extent, right, I think every

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Speaker 2: generation that's got to think about that, But there's a

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Speaker 2: new urgency to it now, partly for the really good

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Speaker 2: reason of the huge rise in the economic independence of women.

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Speaker 2: So I'm one of the people who celebrates the fact

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Speaker 2: that forty percent of women now earn more than the

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Speaker 2: typical man, the median man. Now that's not equality, that

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Speaker 2: would mean fifty percent, right, But in nineteen seventy nine

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Speaker 2: that figure was thirteen percent, right, And that's well within

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Speaker 2: my lifetime. And so in the space of a very

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Speaker 2: short period of economic history, we have transformed the economic

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Speaker 2: relationships between men and women in a way that is wonderful.

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Speaker 2: Arguably the greatest economic liberation in human history as it

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Speaker 2: rolls around the world, still far from complete. But is

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Speaker 2: that like the fact that my wife has had opportunities

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Speaker 2: that my mum could only dream of. That's just the

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Speaker 2: most wonderful thing. And it has put a question mark

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Speaker 2: next to the role of men, because the traditional role

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Speaker 2: of breadwinner has to very large extent now disappeared for

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Speaker 2: the very good reason I've just identified. But we shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be naive about the fact that doesn't actually then put

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Speaker 2: a big question mark, and we shouldn't be naive about

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Speaker 2: the fact that will leave some men at least hungering

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Speaker 2: for the world where you knew what it meant to

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Speaker 2: be a man.

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Speaker 3: So they're asking the question.

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Speaker 2: And going online and finding all kinds of different answers.

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Speaker 2: Now I will say one more thing, which is maybe

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Speaker 2: a bit more of a critique of the what's the

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Speaker 2: cultural blobby left? I don't know what just I'm sure

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It's the block, the liberal block,

434
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 2: which is they they have done a much better job

435
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 2: of outlining what not to do as a man, what

436
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 2: not to be as a man, than what to do.

437
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 2: A lot of young men feel like they've come out

438
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 2: into the world with a long list of don'ts.

439
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 3: Don't say this, don't say this.

440
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 1: I mean just in terms of political correctness the way.

441
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just you know, the consent story and so

442
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 2: on to and to be clear in case it needs

443
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 2: to be said again, all good but I had this

444
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 2: experience with one of my kids came home from I

445
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 2: guess it was middle or early high and they've done

446
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 2: the social skills class or the relationship class or whatever whatever.

447
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 2: All Wellian term is being used to describe the kind

448
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 2: of social emotional skills how to like, how to get

449
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 2: by in the world class thing. And sorry, that was

450
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: very unfair to say it was all well in, but

451
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It's always this this weird thing,

452
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: the social skills and emotional vocabulary literacy class or something.

453
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,360
Speaker 2: And I said, well, what did you learn? And he said,

454
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 2: we did masculinity stuff today. And I said, that's interesting.

455
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 3: What did you learn?

456
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 2: And he said, here's a list of thirty three things

457
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 2: that I know I'm not supposed to do also, and

458
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 2: we went through the list together. I agreed with every

459
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 2: single one of them, and we had a good conversation

460
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 2: about them. And I said, and I said, no, that

461
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 2: was it. So for reasons that I understand, but I

462
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: am increasingly impatient with there's been a reluctance to set

463
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 2: out a kind of positive vision of modern masculinity, one

464
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 2: that's compatible with gender equality, but it's still appealing to

465
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 2: young men. For fear that that will somehow send us

466
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 2: down this slippery slope back to the nineteen fifty again.

467
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: But what that means is that we've done a really

468
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 2: good job of setting out the curriculum of what not

469
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: to be without anything positive to take to take the

470
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 2: place of the old script. So we've torn up the

471
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 2: old script of masculinity, which was based around protector, provider, breadwinner.

472
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 3: We've torn that up.

473
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 2: And we've torn up the old one around femininity, which

474
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 2: was you're going to be a mum, housewife, mom.

475
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 3: We torn them both up.

476
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 2: We replaced the female one with an incredibly powerful and

477
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 2: rather beautiful one about empowerment and liberation. You go Girl

478
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 2: the Future's Female Girls on the Run, Black Girl Magic.

479
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 3: I love all of it.

480
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 2: So it's very kind of cultural empowerment and possibility that

481
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 2: we've replaced now for girls and women. We also tore

482
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 2: up the old male script, and we didn't replace it,

483
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 2: and so we just tore up the old one and said, yeah, well,

484
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 2: you're not going to be like your dad. The economy

485
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: is very different now, and so then the question, okay,

486
00:25:58,440 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 2: well what should I be like?

487
00:25:59,440 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 3: Then?

488
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: We haven't had a good answer to that, but a

489
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: long come some of the online folks, and they have

490
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 2: a very clear answer, and if we don't like it,

491
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: we need a better one. The idea that we don't

492
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 2: need one is the ultimate naivety. And I think that's

493
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 2: what's happened. Has become the sense that equality will require androgyny.

494
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: And honestly, I think I used to think that too.

495
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 2: I think in my I used to think, Ah, let's

496
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 2: get past all this masculine, feminine male female stuff. Let's all,

497
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 2: you know, all human. And I still love that idea,

498
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: but I've really come to believe, partly as a result

499
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: of my own experience as a parent, more generally, but

500
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: that is naive that we do actually still need a

501
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 2: way to talk about men and women, overlapping and distinct

502
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: but still beautiful.

503
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: And so I want to unpack that. I and this

504
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: notion of filling that void and painting a positive alternative

505
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: is foundational critical and I want to get to some

506
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: of your specific ideas in that space. But take me

507
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: back a little bit. You've written a lot about this

508
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: sort of you know, I come from California, Go West,

509
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: young man, Go West, this notion of the great Frontier,

510
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: the freedom, and this guy or gal or at least

511
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: guy in this case, and the white horse comes saving

512
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: the day, sort of the John Wayne a vacation Reagan,

513
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: you know, Coast to Jury, the whole thing, the ocean

514
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: of the lone Ranger. As you write about it being free,

515
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: but you suggest increasingly longely. I mean it sort of

516
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: bring us back a little bit.

517
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And to be clear that I just that description.

518
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm a proud US citizen, have been since

519
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen. And that pioneering spirit, that sense of optimism

520
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: and growth and possibility is I used to work here

521
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 2: before this too.

522
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 3: Love love that about this country.

523
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 2: Do you think there's a sense that at its worst,

524
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 2: there's this movement online, the men going their Own Way movement,

525
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 2: which is literally just men decoupling from society and becoming

526
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 2: they're sort of male separatists, essentially just saying we just

527
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 2: separate ourselves away from society. But even a bit less

528
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: extreme than that, there's this sense of like men are

529
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 2: supposed to be independent, and if men going to get married,

530
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: it's because you know, a woman will sort of trap

531
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: him into it. You talk about the ball and chain,

532
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 2: there's all this tropes around that. Well, actually it turns

533
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: out in the rost recent surveys, men think being married

534
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 2: is more important than women do. And that's because men men,

535
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 2: men know something. And the truth is that masculinity properly

536
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 2: defined has always been relational. It's always been about service

537
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: and surplus. I came across this definition in the literature

538
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 2: for anthropology saying that actually, in a lot of societies,

539
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 2: the marker of going from boy to man was when

540
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: you were producing more of something than you needed for yourself.

541
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 2: You're producing a surplus, right. It could be meat, it

542
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 2: could be money, it could be something. And that's because

543
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 2: just in the natural environment, like it takes a long

544
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: time to raise kids, and that's very demanding on the mums.

545
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 2: And so it was masculinity was literally defined by service,

546
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: was literally defined by giving more than you get, producing

547
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 2: more than you need. Now, what that thing is going

548
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: to be will change. That's very important to say, because

549
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: again this can sound like we're calling for the old system,

550
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: but I still love that idea. That actually the way

551
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: that you can tell if someone's a man is how

552
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: he is with other people, how he is with his

553
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 2: own kids, other people's kids. If he's a teacher, as

554
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: my middle son is now a teacher in Baltimore City

555
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: and like watching him, this big guy at the front

556
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: of a classroom and he coaches soccer, coaches a girl's

557
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 2: soccer team. Just there's something about that which is beautiful.

558
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 2: And I'm not suggesting, of course, that women don't also

559
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: do that, to be clear, but there is something about

560
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: this idea of what I would refer to as relational

561
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: masculinity as opposed to lone ranger masculinity. I think a

562
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: man going his own way and only looking out for

563
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: himself is actually not a man. That's the least masculine

564
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 2: thing you can do, is only out for yourself, and

565
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: that's been true throughout human history, right, It's about the tribe,

566
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 2: it's about the family, it's about your people. And so

567
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 2: I've really been disturbed by this strand of separatism and

568
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 2: stark autonomy that you see online, which is like a

569
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: real man is a man who answers only to himself,

570
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: And I'm sorry, but that's just bullshit, and every human

571
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 2: society has shown that to be the case. A man

572
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 2: is someone who gives, and that's my father was like that.

573
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I saw that being played out in my

574
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: own childhood, which was like he was the guy that

575
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: defined himself by his very embeddedness in his community, not

576
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 2: his separateness from it. And I really worry about the

577
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: isolation that's gripping many of our men now, and I

578
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: think it's because of this false idea about what it

579
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: means to be a.

580
00:30:52,640 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: Man in this notion of community versus you know, this

581
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: disconnect that people are now, you know, deeply lonely. That

582
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: I imagine is that the core of y eighty percent of

583
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: suicides are men. Is that it? I mean, is that

584
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,959
Speaker 1: the trend line? Or is it something deeper? Is it

585
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,239
Speaker 1: just self worth feeling worthless? Is it the fact that

586
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: you know, you know, I've no longer had value because

587
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: you know, my physical strength, my physical capacity is no

588
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: longer the advantage in a sort of cognitive world in

589
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: terms of the economic shifts and realities. Is it? Or

590
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: what is it? I mean? What are these These suicide

591
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: rates are job dropping amazing?

592
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 2: And then I will say that the thing that I

593
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 2: didn't know until we dug into more recently was that

594
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 2: it three swung to young men. So up until twenty ten,

595
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: it was really middle aged men where we saw this

596
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: rise in suicide, which I think was consistent with the

597
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: story of deaths of despair, what was happening in the

598
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: economy and so on. But since twenty ten the riots

599
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 2: has basically all been among young men under thirty, and

600
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: we honestly don't really know why, but it's a huge,

601
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 2: huge rise, and I'm sure it's connected to some of

602
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: these conversations that you've been having around what I call

603
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 2: neededness for want of a better term, yeah, I just

604
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 2: think there's like I've come to believe that a human

605
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: universal is the need to be needed, and that feeling

606
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 2: unneeded is in this case and was literally fatal. A

607
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: very good study by Fiona Shand and her colleagues are

608
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: looked at the words that men used to describe themselves

609
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,719
Speaker 2: before taking their own lives through suicide, and the two

610
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: most commonly used to describe themselves were worthless and useless.

611
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 2: We also know that the suicide rate among men goes

612
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: up very significantly after a breakdown. A marital breakdown or

613
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,719
Speaker 2: a separation does not go up for women, goes up

614
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: a lot for men, so that gap gets even bigger.

615
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 2: We know it's much higher for men who are not employed.

616
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: We know it's much higher for men who as you

617
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: just indicate them in a disconnected, isolated and so what's happening,

618
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: I think, is that too many men aren't sure that

619
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: they're needed. They're not sure that the economy needs them,

620
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 2: they're not sure that their family needs them, they're not

621
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: sure their community needs them. And so we've got to

622
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: find a way to supply that sense to many men

623
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 2: that we still need you like we need you. And

624
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 2: I've actually been struck this as something again I've learned

625
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 2: recently is that there's a huge lack of men volunteering

626
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 2: in many civic institutions. So I just signed up to

627
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: be a big brother. I'm a big fan of big brothers,

628
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 2: big sisters, and now that I've empty nested, maybe I'm

629
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: also trying to fill a hole in myself too. But

630
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 2: I was shocked to discover that the waiting list for

631
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: boys where I live in East Tennessee for a big

632
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: is twelve months. For girls it's three months, because they

633
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: have at least as many boys being referred as girls,

634
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 2: and they have so few male volunteers. And I look around,

635
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: and people should look in their own area, and they

636
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: will almost certainly discover that there is a massive shortage

637
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: of male beings, and so big brothers big sisters is

638
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: becoming big sisters by default because of a lack of

639
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 2: male volunteers. And at the same time, we have a

640
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 2: lot of men who maybe lack some structure and purpose

641
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 2: in their lives, and so there's got to be a

642
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: way to make that call. But it has to be

643
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 2: to men. That's the thing that sounds a bit socially

644
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 2: conservative about this, which is that I think you've got

645
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: to make a specific call, which is like, guys, we

646
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 2: need a you. We don't just need volunteers, we need

647
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: some guys for this. If guys are told like we

648
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 2: need guys, they much want to turn up. And we

649
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 2: could argue forever about why that is, but it just

650
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 2: seems to be true. And so there's something quite deep

651
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: in our culture here as men we like as fathers.

652
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: That's obvious maybe in the workplace, but if we start

653
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: to doubt if whether the tribe needs us, I think

654
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: we fade away.

655
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 1: Is this do you sign these trend lines to deinstitutionalization

656
00:34:55,480 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: the conversations we're having today around reshoring and manufacturing. Are

657
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: you seeing these trend lines globally along those same lines?

658
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: Is it now because we're online more and its algorithms

659
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: that it's getting exacerbated. What I mean, what are the

660
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: what are the sort of or is it just the

661
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:19,240
Speaker 1: ascendancy of the feminist movement and sort of that friction

662
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: that dialectic that's you know that we're not expressing or

663
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 1: at least discussing as much. What what do you attach

664
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: this to? Yeah?

665
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 3: I mean, am I allowed to say yes to all

666
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 3: of the above? Right?

667
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 1: A little bit of everything?

668
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 3: A little bit?

669
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: But I do think that the way I think about

670
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: this is that it's like that if you think of

671
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 2: the culture as like a kaleidoscope, I think it's been

672
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 2: shaken very significantly, and the pieces have not settled again yet.

673
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 2: And some of those, some of the forces that have

674
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: shaken our culture have been really good, like the economic

675
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 2: rise of women, which we mentioned earlier. Now, the economic

676
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: rise of women is a profound fact about modern societies.

677
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: It is a wonderful thing, and it has also massively

678
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 2: destabilized the way you think about male and female role.

679
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: And we've got to acknowledge that if we want to

680
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 2: keep making progress, I think like a big thing here

681
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 2: is you can have a huge step forward, which still

682
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 2: has some turbulence around it, right, So finding a way

683
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: to take men with us on this journey, that's huge.

684
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: But as you just referred to it, it's also also

685
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 2: true that while that was happening, that deindustrialization, some of

686
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 2: the issues around trade just disproportionately hit working classmen. So

687
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: that's happened at the same time. And then right towards

688
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 2: the end of this period we're seeing the rise of

689
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 2: online culture. Now we focus a lot on the negatives

690
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 2: of online culture, I sometimes wonder about the potential positives,

691
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: because in almost all of human history, having more men

692
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: who don't have that much to do, have time on

693
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 2: their hands, has predicted much higher crime rates and much

694
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 2: higher social unrest. Seems to it's almost like a fixed

695
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: law of societies, right, that hasn't happened this time, And

696
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: I think it's plausible to suggest that that might be because.

697
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 3: The men have something else to do.

698
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: With gaming, with pornography, with whatever the online content is, etc.

699
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 2: And so now I'm not arguing in favor of those

700
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: things when I say this, but it is nonetheless striking

701
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 2: that these trends in young male, particularly young male disengagement,

702
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 2: which would almost automatically produce higher crime rates in every

703
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: other era ofkeep because they'd be kicking around on the streets,

704
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 2: they'd be trying to figure out what to do, they'd

705
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 2: be getting into vites. They'd be like, that's not happened.

706
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 2: And so in some ways what's happened instead is a

707
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: male retreat. And so I've ended up being more worried

708
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 2: about the men who are checking out than the men

709
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 2: who are acting out. Now, of course, the men who

710
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: act out get all the headlines, and I don't in

711
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: any way want to diminish the problems around men acting out,

712
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: But I see a much deeper problem here, which is

713
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 2: the just this patrol, this retreat, this passivity that many

714
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: men feel because they can retreat to this online world

715
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: which wasn't there. Wasn't there when I was growing up

716
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 2: or when you're growing up in the same way, but

717
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 2: it is there now. And so what it gives men

718
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 2: is an alternative world to escape to. And the question

719
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 2: is why are so many of them wanting to escape?

720
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: And that, I mean, it's a rhetorical question for you.

721
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: I mean, why is that?

722
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 3: Then?

723
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: I mean? Is what what I mean? It's well, let's

724
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: I mean, there's an opportunity obviously to segue and what

725
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: we need to do. But I mean, but why, I

726
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: mean again, is there any is it? Is it just

727
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: these larger trend lines? I mean, what is there? Is

728
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: there sort of a moment that marks I mean? Or

729
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,760
Speaker 1: is it just this longer shift it's decades in the making,

730
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: I mean, or can you literally mark is there a

731
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 1: cultural moment that really sort of where you saw this

732
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: trend accelerate, this trend line became headline.

733
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:02,919
Speaker 2: The way I think about this is that you see

734
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 2: these cultural trends happening relatively slowly in terms of the

735
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 2: human life span, or it happened over decades. But they're

736
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 2: like you know, the tectonic plates shifting around, and then

737
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: you'll get once they hit a certain point, then you'll

738
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 2: get the earthquake or the volcano. But beneath the surface.

739
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 2: And this is very much your state, So you understand

740
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: this better than most governors. It's like stuff that the

741
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 2: ground is moving beneath the surface, and then that will

742
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 2: create this kind of eruption. I think the ground has

743
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 2: been shifting for at least half a century. It's been

744
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 2: shifting economically with a shift away from blue collar, male

745
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 2: favored jobs. It's been shifting in terms of the relative

746
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 2: position of men and women, with women going from being

747
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 2: essentially economically dependent on men to being economically independent.

748
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 3: To a very large degree.

749
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,280
Speaker 2: And in the education system, we've seen this massive reversal

750
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 2: of the gender gaps, so that boys and men are

751
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 2: now way behind women and girls when they leave school,

752
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 2: leave college, I mean at college. Now there's a bigger

753
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 2: gender gap on college campuses today than there was in

754
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two when we passed Title nine. But it's

755
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 2: the other way round, so about sixty forty now female male.

756
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 2: And so these things didn't happen overnight. They've been building

757
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: and developing. And then I think this online culture has

758
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 2: intersected with this in one way just talked about to

759
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: kind of give men a place to retreat to, which

760
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 2: I think is bad in the long run, but also

761
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: to start weaponizing, to use the term used earlier, some

762
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 2: of these grievances, some of these issues, and so I

763
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 2: think it takes quite a long time to neglect issues

764
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 2: that have been but but I think they've been coming

765
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 2: for quite a while now. It's just that they've broken

766
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 2: through the surface now into our culture and into our

767
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: politics in a way that's made them very hard to ignore,

768
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 2: but I honestly think they've been building for many decades now.

769
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: So speaking of politics, I mean, obviously the Trump campaign

770
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: did not ignore this space, and I don't think they

771
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: ignored it, you know, for eight years prior either. But

772
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: they seemed to have really been the beneficiary of more

773
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 1: focus on young men on some of these trend lines. Obviously,

774
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: the amount of time and energy the campaign spent targeting

775
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: young men, targeting men broadly, that paid huge dividends. I

776
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 1: think there was a fifteen point shift from forty fifty

777
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: six percent men under thirty that moved towards Trump campaign.

778
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 1: What do you make of his approach to these issues?

779
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: Do you think they're cynical? Do you think he's approached

780
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 1: it at least with a sensitivity, a recognition And where

781
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: do you think my party as Democrats? It sort of

782
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 1: seemed completely devoid of focus and energy. I was certainly

783
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: not a focus at the DNC. You know, we have

784
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 1: a post acquaintance. At least I had a privilege having

785
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,720
Speaker 1: him on the podcast got Galloway post Front of Yours.

786
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,439
Speaker 1: Scott talked about the DNC and he talked about going

787
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 1: on there DNC, what we care and it was every

788
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 1: single thing that's out there, I imaginable except twenty six

789
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 1: percent of the population that the DNC didn't seem to

790
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: care about in a least at all, at least based

791
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 1: on their own their own website and their own priorities

792
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: and policy.

793
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 3: What.

794
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:19,760
Speaker 1: What do you think of Trump's efforts in the space.

795
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, the way I think about this is that

796
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:27,879
Speaker 2: in politics, something almost always beats nothing, and what there

797
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: was from the Democrats on issues around bois and men

798
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 2: was was nothing.

799
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 3: It was this.

800
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 2: It was the sound of deafening silence on these issues

801
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 2: and has That's been true for a while, And I

802
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: think for the reasons that were identified earlier, which is

803
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 2: that the Democrats were very determined to be seen, particularly

804
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 2: by women, as the party that were supporting them, and

805
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 2: they felt that any moves to acknowledge the issues the

806
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 2: challenges of boys and men would somehow undermine their claim

807
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 2: to be the party for women. I think that was

808
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 2: a fate miscalculation. I also think, honestly it was somewhat

809
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 2: insulting to women, because there are plenty of women out there,

810
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 2: and we may know some in our own lives, Governor,

811
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 2: who are simultaneously worried about the issues facing women access

812
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: for example, a reproductive health care, justice at work, and

813
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 2: they're desperately worried about their son's mental health, and they're

814
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 2: very worried about their brother's job. And so a party

815
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 2: that managed to do both I think would have been

816
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 2: pretty unstoppable. But there was nothing on the Democrat side.

817
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 2: On the Republican side, there was really I would just

818
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 2: put it as meeting men where they were, especially young men.

819
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 2: And if you look at recent work from David Shore,

820
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 2: the Democrat polster, it's very striking that it wasn't just

821
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 2: like men under thirty, it was men under twenty, it

822
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,479
Speaker 2: was men under twenty three. The younger the men were,

823
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: the more they swung. And I think that is partly

824
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: because that's the microgeneration who grew up with terms like

825
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 2: toxic masculinity and man's plaining, and the women's movement they

826
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: toxic masculine. He was only invented, really in twenty sixteen

827
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 2: for public use, but if you were you could you

828
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 2: were ten when that happened. If you were voting for

829
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 2: the first time in twenty twenty four, you were in

830
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 2: high school when that happened. If you were twenty four

831
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 2: when you were voting. So I think what's happened was

832
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 2: that there was this sense of young men coming up

833
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 2: for grabs. They didn't hear anything from Democrats, And in

834
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 2: the end, I think I think the Republicans did a

835
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: better job of signaling to young men we like you,

836
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: we like the stuff you like, and we are going

837
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 2: to go to the places you go, like the podcast,

838
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 2: And so I think they met young men where they

839
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 2: were both culturally and in terms of communications strategy. They

840
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: didn't have anything to offer them. But by way of policy,

841
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,399
Speaker 2: this wasn't a policy referendum, and in fact, my work

842
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 2: suggests that they've views on policy among young men haven't

843
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 2: really changed. This wasn't a policy win. It was a

844
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 2: cultural win. The Republicans managed to convince young men that

845
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 2: we see you and we like you, and I don't

846
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 2: think there was anything more to it than that. But

847
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: I don't think the Democrats did a very good job

848
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: of making young men feel the same way. If anything,

849
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: Democrats struggle with the idea that men might have problems

850
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,879
Speaker 2: because too many of them are still convinced that men

851
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 2: are the problem. And until the Democrats get past that,

852
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 2: until they kind of acknowledge that there are real problems

853
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 2: facing boys and men and issues facing women and girls.

854
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 2: They just couldn't get past. There are some just as

855
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 2: we don't do it. It's very frustrating, especially when Tim

856
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 2: Walls came on the ticket. I had this fantasy speech

857
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: in my head where Tim Walls would go out and

858
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 2: talk about the need for first public school teacher to

859
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 2: run for such high office.

860
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 3: Coach.

861
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: I had the speech she was going to give, and

862
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 2: it was going to be all about the things we're

863
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 2: going to do for women as the Democrats. So he

864
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: was going he said, but you know what, I'm very

865
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 2: worried about the ten percent decline in the share of

866
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 2: male teachers. I'm very worried about the decline in male sports.

867
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 2: I'm very worried about the lack of male coaches. I'm

868
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 2: very worried about the rising sewers among young men. And I,

869
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 2: as a Democrat, I'm going to set out this agenda

870
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 2: to help young men and to help men, as well

871
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 2: as our agenda to help young women. And I've got

872
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:11,919
Speaker 2: to tell you, I don't think very many people would

873
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 2: have hated that. But there wasn't even a hint of

874
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 2: that from the Democrats.

875
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: Boy, I mean you really hit me when you say,

876
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: of all the people that could have done it so effectively,

877
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: Tim could have done it. I mean extraordinarily well with

878
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: not only is Bio in the military as well.

879
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 3: But.

880
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,919
Speaker 1: The person he is. There's a sweetness of softness, there's

881
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: a decency inheriting him, there's not an edge. People are

882
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: not put off by Tim. They feel they want to

883
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: He's a guy you want to support, and his capacity

884
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: to deliver that message would have been profound. I couldn't

885
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: agree with you more at really, I appreciate that insight.

886
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: So look, that begs the question, and you made the point,

887
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: And I appreciate you making the point because I was

888
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,439
Speaker 1: curious your thoughts of whether not Trump and Trump isn't

889
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 1: sort of reflects a policy shift as opposed to sort

890
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 1: of attaching themselves to the cultural shift and identifying the

891
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: issue but not necessarily advancing policy to solve them. You've

892
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: advanced a number of principles, a number of ideas to

893
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: solve them. One of them reflected in that speech you

894
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: just mentioned. I mean the importance of having young male teachers,

895
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: the importance of having mentors, the importance of focusing on

896
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 1: issues are related to vocational training. The opportunities had to

897
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: find more areas for service and contribution, to find meaning

898
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,240
Speaker 1: and purpose and mission in one's life, the issues around

899
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: mental health. Tell me more about those areas, and tell

900
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: me about this frame that you've put together called HEEL

901
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: to sort of touch the STEM framework as it relates

902
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 1: to getting women and girls in the STEM field. You

903
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 1: want to focus on this thing called h ea.

904
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 3: L yes, yes, thank you.

905
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 2: So most people know what STEM is by now science, Technology, engineering,

906
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 2: and math. Many people don't know that it originally wasn't

907
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 2: going to be called that it was going to be

908
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 2: called SMET SMET, and then Judith Ramiley at the National

909
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 2: Science Foundation she said, can I call it STEM? And

910
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 2: they said, sure, whatever, Judith, and the rest is history.

911
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 2: But you're right that we've made huge efforts both to

912
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 2: invest in STEM but also to get more women into STEM.

913
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 2: And we have much further to go, especially in the

914
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 2: area of technology, but we have tripled the share of

915
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 2: STEM workers that are female up to about twenty seven

916
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 2: percent now in the US compared to the nineteen seventies.

917
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 2: That's not an accident. That was the result of concerted

918
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 2: public policy, as you know, of getting into middle schools

919
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,399
Speaker 2: of scholarships of various advocacy groups to really get more

920
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 2: women into those professions and to start seeing them as

921
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 2: professions that were for them.

922
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 3: But heel jobs are.

923
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 2: Those that are in health and education and requiring more

924
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 2: literacy skills than math skills, not just written literacy, but

925
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,839
Speaker 2: kind of emotional literacy, verbal communication. And so those would

926
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,280
Speaker 2: be jobs like teaching, nursing, health care assistance, social work,

927
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 2: mental health professionals, etc. And what's really striking about that

928
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 2: is that the share of men in those fields has

929
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: actually gone down. So the share of women in those

930
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 2: stem jobs has gone up, but we have fewer men

931
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 2: in those heel jobs. So, as I mentioned a moment

932
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,919
Speaker 2: ago declining share of male teachers, it was thirty three

933
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 2: percent when Tim Wals was the teacher. Was the male share.

934
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 2: Now it's twenty three percent and falling and continues to fall,

935
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 2: and there is yet to be a sustained public policy

936
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 2: effort to do anything about that. Pleased to see some governors,

937
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 2: I know you're interested in it. I've seen Gretchen Whitmer

938
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 2: and Wes Moore and others really start to talk about

939
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 2: this issue. And you mentioned Josh Hawley a moment ago

940
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,879
Speaker 2: who wrote his own book on this. To be fair,

941
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 2: the one thing that he agreed with me on was

942
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 2: this that actually, it would be good to get more

943
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,399
Speaker 2: men in our classrooms. And so if you've got Josh

944
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 2: Howley on board on one side, and the American Psychological Association,

945
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 2: quite a progressive organization also saying we can that's a

946
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 2: big tent to work with. Or I can work with that.

947
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 3: If I've lost everybody.

948
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 2: To the right of Hawley and everybody to the left

949
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 2: of the APA, I can live with that. But it's

950
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 2: also true in mental health care. So the share of

951
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 2: men in social work, or i should say the share

952
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: of social workers who are male, is now twenty percent.

953
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: It was.

954
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 2: Forty percent in the seventies. The shriff psychologists that are

955
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 2: male is twenty percent. It was more than fifty percent

956
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 2: and seventies. And so we are creatoring the share of

957
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 2: men in education and in mental health care, just at

958
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: a point in our history where we're so worried about education,

959
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 2: especially for boys, and we're so worried about mental health care,

960
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,479
Speaker 2: and where we have this rising suicide rate among men.

961
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 2: I think representation really matters in those fields, and gender

962
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 2: is part of that story. There are other kinds of

963
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 2: representation too. But I'm going to get out on a

964
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 2: limb here and say I think that if the teaching profession,

965
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 2: social work profession, psychology profession were becoming all male, you'd

966
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 2: be reading about it and we'd be acting on it.

967
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 2: We would not think it was a good idea. Isn't

968
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 2: it true the other way around as well? And again

969
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 2: people are worried that they somehow, oh, this is about men.

970
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 2: I'm like, when I wanted therapy, when my son wanted therapy,

971
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 2: it was really great to be able to find a

972
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 2: male all right, Not for everything and not for everybody,

973
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 2: but I do think it should be an option to

974
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: be able to find men. And the other thing is

975
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 2: those fields need workers, labor shortages, and it's not a

976
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 2: very good idea to try and solve the labor shortages

977
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 2: half the workforce.

978
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 3: And there are jobs.

979
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 2: So if we can, if we can do for heal

980
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 2: these health and education jobs for men what we did

981
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 2: for women into STEM, put the same kind of effort

982
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 2: on that would I think be a huge win. It

983
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 2: would actually be a win win win. It would be

984
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: a win for the professions who need workers. It would

985
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 2: be a win for the people using our schools and

986
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 2: hospitals and mental health professions, who would see themselves reflected

987
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,479
Speaker 2: in it, and it would be a win for men.

988
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 2: Many of people are kind of looking for jobs now,

989
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:04,760
Speaker 2: and so I'd love to see a concerted policy effort

990
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 2: really learning the lessons for women in stem around these jobs.

991
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 2: We can't have the the degendering of the labor market

992
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 2: only go one way, right. I don't think we should

993
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 2: be relaxed about that. I'm certainly not relaxed about the

994
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 2: creatoring share of men in those professions, and I.

995
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 3: Don't think any policy maker should be.

996
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: It's interesting, and I appreciate all of the above, and

997
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: hear you loudly and clearly in my day job and

998
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 1: my responsibility as governor to call that out and be

999
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: more intentional in that space as well. You also are

1000
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 1: very intentional, and you've called out the importance of looking

1001
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: at men fathers in the context of paid parentally. Tell

1002
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: me more what you're thinking is along those lines in

1003
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 1: terms of just and we didn't talk about fatherlesseners. We

1004
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 1: didn't get into that issue necessarily, but I imagine in relationship

1005
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: to being a parent and a provider, not just being

1006
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 1: a protector, but back to being a provider is not

1007
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: just about aconomic issues as relates to being a breadwinner,

1008
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 1: but also at home and making sure that you're providing

1009
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: for the family in terms of that care.

1010
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it speaks a bit to your wife's concerns

1011
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 2: too about the division of labor that we have around kids.

1012
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 2: I mean, the main reason for the gender paid gap

1013
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 2: now is the care gap, is that women are just

1014
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 2: doing much more of the care than men. And I'm

1015
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 2: not suggesting that's going to go away overnight, or that

1016
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 2: people shouldn't be free to choose whatever they want, but

1017
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 2: I don't think policy should be inadvertently supporting these gender roles.

1018
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 2: And so what that means is that if you have

1019
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 2: paid leave, you should have paid leave for mothers and

1020
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,280
Speaker 2: fathers independently.

1021
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 3: Available to each of them.

1022
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,360
Speaker 2: If we really think that dad's matter, and I do,

1023
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 2: then we've got to be saying that through policy.

1024
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 3: And it's really interesting.

1025
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 2: When I brought my book out, I made the proposal

1026
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 2: that moms and dads should each get six months of

1027
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 2: paid leave at a very high replacement rate. And one

1028
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 2: of my friends says, what are you European, And well,

1029
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 2: actually by background I am, but I get it. It's

1030
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,319
Speaker 2: like wildly utopian. But guess what. Under the Biden administration,

1031
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 2: the US military introduced three months paid leave separately from

1032
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 2: mothers and fathers, and so maybe we could try the

1033
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 2: same for civilians. And the key point for me here

1034
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 2: is a paid leave. It's such an important policy. And California,

1035
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 2: of course is very strong state level policy, which I'm

1036
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 2: sure you're very proud of that the US doesn't, but

1037
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 2: a lot of this is at state level. But it's

1038
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 2: very important both in the way that the policy is

1039
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 2: designed and the way that it's marketed and sold and

1040
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 2: described that it's not seen as maternity leave, just called

1041
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 2: parental leave or paid leave. We've really got to ensure

1042
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 2: that fathers feel like this is for them as well,

1043
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 2: and design it so that it's for them too.

1044
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 3: If we want more gender.

1045
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 2: Equality at work, we need more gender equality at home.

1046
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 2: And we also need more dads involved in.

1047
00:54:58,760 --> 00:54:59,760
Speaker 3: Their kids' lives.

1048
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 2: And there are there are lots of things it's hard

1049
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 2: to do through policy, right Maybe many of the things

1050
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 2: we've talked about today, there's there's no obvious policy solution,

1051
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 2: but paid leave for dads is a policy solution that works.

1052
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,919
Speaker 2: They have more egalitarian relationships with their partners. They are

1053
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 2: more involved with the kid's lives years later. And so

1054
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 2: there is a policy, so pro mail policy that's on

1055
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 2: the table, and that it's one that should be being

1056
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 2: supported by most people, certainly on the Democrat side, but

1057
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 2: it should be being sold as a pro mail, pro

1058
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,319
Speaker 2: dad policy, and it currently isn't being sold that way.

1059
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 1: Well said, and ensure as hell by definition a profamily

1060
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:45,720
Speaker 1: policy in terms of strengthening their family. Bid well, Richard,

1061
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: thank you for sort of, you know, strengthening our attention

1062
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 1: to this critical issue. And I'm just you know, I've

1063
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:57,839
Speaker 1: been really inspired not only by your work, but by

1064
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 1: sort of the rediscovery of your work because you've been

1065
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: at this for some time, and to see all the

1066
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 1: energy and support that you're getting to have the opportunity

1067
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: to dialogue with Scott Galloway and the work he's doing

1068
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: highlighting this space. I mean, it really is a call

1069
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 1: to arms. This is not political. This is about community,

1070
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 1: This is about who we are. It's about the commonwealth

1071
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: more broadly, and so I really wanted to thank you

1072
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: for being such a powerful voice in that space but

1073
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 1: also sharing that voice with us here today. So thank

1074
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: you for being on the podcast.

1075
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 3: Thank you