WEBVTT - Started From The Bottom with Justin Richmond 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.116 Pushkin. I'm Malcolm Gladwell and today on Revisionist History, I 0:00:25.156 --> 0:00:27.476 have a special treat I'm going to play for you 0:00:27.796 --> 0:00:30.196 an interview I did with an old friend in Pushkin 0:00:30.276 --> 0:00:33.836 co conspirator Justin Richmond, who you may know from our 0:00:33.916 --> 0:00:37.596 music show Broken Record, which Justin has made happen since 0:00:37.756 --> 0:00:43.116 the beginning. But now Justin has his own gig. He's 0:00:43.116 --> 0:00:46.076 the creator and host of a new podcast called Started 0:00:46.196 --> 0:00:50.156 from the Bottom. It's a show about origin stories, particularly 0:00:50.356 --> 0:00:53.476 the origin stories of men and women of color, how 0:00:53.476 --> 0:00:55.916 they climbed their way up the ladder, the obstacles they 0:00:55.996 --> 0:00:59.156 overcame along the way. And for this episode that I'm 0:00:59.156 --> 0:01:01.316 about to play for you, I turned the tables on 0:01:01.556 --> 0:01:04.796 Justin and I interviewed him. We did it in front 0:01:04.796 --> 0:01:07.516 of a group of students and faculty at Medgar Evers 0:01:07.516 --> 0:01:10.036 College on the side of the old Evie Field in Brooklyn, 0:01:10.036 --> 0:01:13.116 New York. As someone of West Indian heritage, let me 0:01:13.196 --> 0:01:16.796 just say how gratified I was at the heavy West 0:01:16.836 --> 0:01:19.956 Indian turnout for this, And in good West Indian fashion, 0:01:20.396 --> 0:01:22.356 they asked some pretty good questions at the end too. 0:01:22.916 --> 0:01:26.996 So here we go my conversation with my good friend 0:01:27.036 --> 0:01:27.956 Justin Richmond. 0:01:30.476 --> 0:01:33.036 Hello, Hello, who is this song? Check? Check ye a 0:01:33.196 --> 0:01:38.716 single race, So welcome. This is the first time I've 0:01:38.716 --> 0:01:41.756 ever done anything like this, and it is certainly the 0:01:41.756 --> 0:01:45.916 first live taping of started from the bottom. So thank 0:01:45.956 --> 0:02:02.276 you so much for coming, Malcolm, thank you so much 0:02:02.276 --> 0:02:02.796 for doing this. 0:02:03.156 --> 0:02:05.836 Not at all, it's my pleasure, Justin. I've long dreamed 0:02:05.876 --> 0:02:07.076 of being on a stage with you. 0:02:08.916 --> 0:02:12.476 I can't imagine that's true, but it's very nice of 0:02:12.516 --> 0:02:13.196 you to say no. 0:02:13.276 --> 0:02:16.596 I think I hope this is the start of many 0:02:16.636 --> 0:02:19.396 of these Justin, But I think premise of today's is 0:02:19.436 --> 0:02:22.556 that I'm interviewing you, right, That's not our plan. 0:02:22.916 --> 0:02:23.996 Yeah, Look, we. 0:02:23.916 --> 0:02:25.836 Want to get the Justin. We want to get the 0:02:26.196 --> 0:02:27.116 Justin Richmond. 0:02:26.836 --> 0:02:29.916 Origin stories, a little introduction in me, I guess, yeah, yeah. 0:02:29.796 --> 0:02:32.196 The which you know. I love these things because I've 0:02:32.236 --> 0:02:35.596 often I'm a firm believer that if you want to 0:02:35.596 --> 0:02:38.676 get to know somebody, even if they've done a lifetime 0:02:38.676 --> 0:02:42.076 of interesting things, if you just do the first twenty years, 0:02:42.076 --> 0:02:47.116 you get most of what you need. Right that it's 0:02:47.156 --> 0:02:50.476 a surprising how much you can glean from. So let's start. 0:02:50.556 --> 0:02:53.876 Let's do the Justin Richmond analysis and I wanted to 0:02:53.916 --> 0:02:56.476 start with a thing we have in common. Now you 0:02:56.516 --> 0:02:57.956 might look at us and say, what on earth do 0:02:57.996 --> 0:03:00.076 they have in common? But we do have one very 0:03:00.076 --> 0:03:03.476 significant fact in common, which is we're both the product 0:03:03.476 --> 0:03:06.596 of biracial marriages. Yeah, and I wanted to start with that. 0:03:06.876 --> 0:03:09.356 First of all, you're more obviously biracial, and me, I 0:03:09.396 --> 0:03:13.076 don't know how that happened. You, I'm a little more 0:03:13.116 --> 0:03:14.636 subtle yours. 0:03:15.476 --> 0:03:17.036 Your dad would say it's his jeans. 0:03:18.516 --> 0:03:21.036 So you're tell me about your parents. Let's start with 0:03:21.076 --> 0:03:22.516 those two. How did they meet? 0:03:22.756 --> 0:03:25.476 Justin to start with that, they met at Compton Community College. 0:03:26.316 --> 0:03:29.396 So he grew up in Compton and and my mom 0:03:29.476 --> 0:03:31.076 was there for I don't even know why she was there, 0:03:31.116 --> 0:03:34.396 but she was there. She was friends with someone there 0:03:34.596 --> 0:03:36.596 and so she was there. They met. 0:03:36.996 --> 0:03:38.276 Where does your mom grow up? 0:03:38.836 --> 0:03:41.796 My mom grew up in a city called Almonte, which 0:03:41.836 --> 0:03:46.316 is by Pasadena. My mom grew up on the racetrack. 0:03:46.316 --> 0:03:48.916 Her dad was a racehorse trainer, so she grew up 0:03:48.956 --> 0:03:53.956 on the racetrack. And Yeah, they're very different people even 0:03:54.076 --> 0:03:55.956 to this day. And it might be because they've never 0:03:56.036 --> 0:03:58.876 seen them together, but my kids still cannot wrap their 0:03:58.876 --> 0:04:01.156 heads around that my parents, like you know that there's 0:04:01.196 --> 0:04:06.276 any relationship between them or ever was you know, they 0:04:06.316 --> 0:04:09.556 were never together, they were never married, but yeah, like 0:04:09.596 --> 0:04:11.236 they liked they just liked each other, you know. 0:04:11.396 --> 0:04:13.196 So how long were they together. 0:04:14.836 --> 0:04:17.076 Off and on? About five years? Four years? 0:04:17.476 --> 0:04:20.196 So you have very few memories of the two of 0:04:20.236 --> 0:04:21.516 them as in a couple. 0:04:21.476 --> 0:04:24.356 Very few early on, Like I remember being over at 0:04:24.356 --> 0:04:27.276 his house because I have two half brothers, so early 0:04:27.316 --> 0:04:29.556 on I remember being over there with them, going to 0:04:29.596 --> 0:04:33.516 Disneyland on occasion. Well, yeah, the memories are very sporadic 0:04:33.556 --> 0:04:34.036 early on. 0:04:34.196 --> 0:04:38.796 You know of them, and you're raised by your mom, 0:04:39.276 --> 0:04:42.236 raised a bit by both, but primarily by my mom. Yeah, 0:04:42.276 --> 0:04:44.756 and where you grow in Long Beach or yes. 0:04:44.676 --> 0:04:47.076 In Long Beach. And then at five, my mom moved 0:04:47.076 --> 0:04:49.396 to the city of Orange, which is in Orange County, 0:04:49.396 --> 0:04:52.596 which is about twenty minutes south of Long Beach. 0:04:52.676 --> 0:04:54.276 Yeah, yeah, what is Orange? 0:04:54.916 --> 0:04:59.996 Like Orange and far as places in Orange County, go 0:05:00.316 --> 0:05:04.356 is pretty diverse. There's a large Latino community there, but 0:05:04.756 --> 0:05:10.796 aside from the Latino population, it's overwhelmingly white. And that 0:05:10.996 --> 0:05:13.156 was it. That was a change from me even having 0:05:13.236 --> 0:05:15.796 white parents, like even having like my mom being white 0:05:16.116 --> 0:05:17.996 and having that whole side of my family be white. 0:05:18.396 --> 0:05:20.636 I never thought of it that way until I showed up. 0:05:21.156 --> 0:05:22.836 You know, she moved there right before I started, a 0:05:22.876 --> 0:05:25.276 month before I started kindergarten. And I remember my first 0:05:25.316 --> 0:05:27.556 day of kindergarten. I rolled up and I had this 0:05:27.636 --> 0:05:29.156 is ninety four, so I had a Power Range of 0:05:29.196 --> 0:05:31.476 shirt on. I thought I was real cool, Power Rangers 0:05:31.516 --> 0:05:33.756 lunch box. I really thought I was nervous, but I 0:05:33.756 --> 0:05:35.556 thought I was fresh. I thought it was good, right, 0:05:36.116 --> 0:05:41.316 And I'll never forget this kid who was in line 0:05:41.396 --> 0:05:43.036 in front of me, like, look back at me, and 0:05:43.516 --> 0:05:46.196 this is the first time. Like again, I'm like, I'm 0:05:46.236 --> 0:05:48.916 not really realizing the differences between us yet. But he 0:05:48.956 --> 0:05:51.676 turns dound and looks at me and goes, are you poor? 0:05:52.916 --> 0:05:56.156 Are you poor? Yeah? Yeah yeah? And I was like 0:05:56.156 --> 0:05:58.436 like you what do you mean? And he's like, you 0:05:58.476 --> 0:06:01.876 look poor? Are you poor? And I was like what, 0:06:02.076 --> 0:06:04.116 you know, I was just deflated. I didn't know exactly 0:06:04.116 --> 0:06:05.516 what to think about it at the moment. I was. 0:06:05.596 --> 0:06:07.556 I was just deflated just because you know, your five 0:06:07.636 --> 0:06:11.156 year old you go into kindergarten. Ryna. We had just moved, 0:06:11.996 --> 0:06:14.116 and I thought it looked good, but apparently I looked poor. 0:06:15.436 --> 0:06:16.356 I remember his name? 0:06:16.596 --> 0:06:17.636 Should you tell your mom? 0:06:17.796 --> 0:06:19.516 Yes, I did that. I remember that. I remember, I 0:06:19.556 --> 0:06:24.756 remember going home and talking to my mom and uh yeah. 0:06:24.796 --> 0:06:29.036 I mean that's when I think her hope was that 0:06:29.156 --> 0:06:32.676 it would take a little bit long for those dynamic, 0:06:32.756 --> 0:06:35.396 for that dynamic to set in, right. But that's when 0:06:35.436 --> 0:06:38.156 we had, you know, when she started talking to me 0:06:38.196 --> 0:06:41.436 about the fact that I am now at this overwhelmingly 0:06:41.436 --> 0:06:44.396 white place and many of the people I'm going to 0:06:44.436 --> 0:06:48.676 be around are likely growing up, if not out and 0:06:48.676 --> 0:06:51.956 now racist, racist things being said in their household, They're 0:06:51.996 --> 0:06:53.796 going to be parroting those things back. 0:06:55.436 --> 0:06:58.756 At that. So if I asked you in say, in 0:06:58.836 --> 0:07:02.996 middle school, to how you would describe yourself racially, what 0:07:03.036 --> 0:07:03.676 would you have said? 0:07:03.716 --> 0:07:06.676 Black? I knew I was black, you just because because 0:07:06.716 --> 0:07:09.636 of my experience, Because of that experience going to the 0:07:09.996 --> 0:07:12.716 so you know, off, I would say, off and on. 0:07:12.716 --> 0:07:15.956 Between kindergarten and ninth grade, I was going to overwhelmingly 0:07:15.956 --> 0:07:18.396 white schools, and you know, these are places where I 0:07:18.396 --> 0:07:20.356 would get called nigger. You know. So when you're getting 0:07:20.396 --> 0:07:22.756 called nigger, you know what you are, you know. And 0:07:22.796 --> 0:07:24.956 then I go talk to my dad about it. He goes, well, 0:07:24.996 --> 0:07:26.676 you are niggas, so but you know that was like 0:07:26.716 --> 0:07:28.396 his way of trying to be like, yeah, you are niggas, 0:07:28.436 --> 0:07:34.596 so yeah. You know. So I definitely knew what I was. 0:07:34.636 --> 0:07:40.876 I knew I was black. And where it got well, 0:07:40.876 --> 0:07:44.636 I see where it got difficult was when probably in 0:07:44.796 --> 0:07:47.516 junior high, when it was teachers who I think sort 0:07:47.556 --> 0:07:50.756 of interacting with me differently because of my color, you know, 0:07:50.836 --> 0:07:52.396 like I had. I got in a lot of trouble 0:07:53.276 --> 0:07:56.196 because I grew locks, and I remember they wanted to 0:07:56.236 --> 0:07:58.396 kick me out of school. There was a there was 0:07:58.436 --> 0:08:03.516 a neo Nazi kid named. 0:08:02.036 --> 0:08:05.676 Your name, and all these people like on the bulletin board, 0:08:05.836 --> 0:08:06.636 where are you man? 0:08:06.796 --> 0:08:08.676 Right? And every day with him go you know, it 0:08:08.756 --> 0:08:10.676 was go back to Africa. I mean it got to 0:08:10.676 --> 0:08:15.636 the point police got involved, you know, and he never 0:08:15.676 --> 0:08:18.996 got kicked out of school somehow. But but I would 0:08:19.036 --> 0:08:20.996 say the point in junior high is when teachers I 0:08:21.036 --> 0:08:25.756 started getting just weird comments from teachers and weird nothing 0:08:25.756 --> 0:08:27.836 I did was ever good enough. There's always a perception 0:08:27.876 --> 0:08:30.716 that I was lazy. And that's when I think because 0:08:30.716 --> 0:08:32.556 I was. I was always a smart kid and because 0:08:32.596 --> 0:08:35.996 my dad played football, because I was so tall, I 0:08:36.036 --> 0:08:38.316 was always tall. The perception was always that I was 0:08:38.356 --> 0:08:42.076 going to go and be an athlete. But from early age, 0:08:42.196 --> 0:08:44.796 I realized I wanted to cut against that. Like I 0:08:44.796 --> 0:08:47.476 didn't want okay, cool, Yeah I can I can play ball, 0:08:47.756 --> 0:08:50.116 I can do that. But what I realized I really 0:08:50.196 --> 0:08:53.276 wanted was to show people, Like early on, I kind 0:08:53.276 --> 0:08:57.316 of got this need to prove people wrong in me, 0:08:57.516 --> 0:09:00.476 and so I felt like I always wanted to be. 0:09:01.276 --> 0:09:03.076 I always wanted to be the smartest person in the 0:09:03.156 --> 0:09:05.876 room at that point as a young kid, and I 0:09:05.916 --> 0:09:08.716 didn't always have the confidence that I was, but I deep, 0:09:08.756 --> 0:09:10.716 deep down somewhere I wanted to be. And by the 0:09:10.756 --> 0:09:12.796 time I got to to junior high and the teachers 0:09:12.796 --> 0:09:15.876 were sort of I have these these odd interactions. I 0:09:15.916 --> 0:09:18.316 think that's when I started to That's when my my 0:09:18.436 --> 0:09:21.196 interest in education started to wane and my I would say, 0:09:21.196 --> 0:09:23.796 my pride and myself started to win. 0:09:23.916 --> 0:09:26.116 How many black teachers did you have in your public 0:09:26.116 --> 0:09:26.796 school experience? 0:09:27.836 --> 0:09:29.036 Zero? Zero? 0:09:30.276 --> 0:09:31.476 They got something to do with it. 0:09:32.836 --> 0:09:34.596 I think that's a big thing, has a big part 0:09:34.596 --> 0:09:37.396 to do with it. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, you got it. 0:09:37.556 --> 0:09:40.876 And that's the premise of my show, if you're not around, 0:09:42.116 --> 0:09:44.796 if you're not around people who look like you, who 0:09:44.916 --> 0:09:48.476 are successful, you know. And my dad, God bless him, 0:09:48.476 --> 0:09:50.156 you know. He was an NFL so to degree was 0:09:50.156 --> 0:09:52.796 a success. But my dad and I love him. But 0:09:52.996 --> 0:09:55.996 you know, he also like has a very small way 0:09:56.036 --> 0:09:58.356 of thinking, you know, and so I never really felt 0:09:58.396 --> 0:10:00.956 like I had someone. 0:10:02.036 --> 0:10:03.876 What do you mean by a small way of thinking? 0:10:06.156 --> 0:10:08.076 For him, it was always like, yeah, just go be 0:10:08.116 --> 0:10:09.676 a cop, you know, Like that's sure money. Like you 0:10:09.716 --> 0:10:11.956 can go be a cop. You can get one hundred 0:10:11.996 --> 0:10:14.076 grand a year. With over time, you can make like 0:10:14.116 --> 0:10:16.356 one twenty Like what are you doing with this college thing? 0:10:16.396 --> 0:10:17.956 What are you doing with school? You know, like they didn't. 0:10:18.156 --> 0:10:22.996 He couldn't get that I wanted to be that. I 0:10:22.996 --> 0:10:24.836 wanted to be an educated brother. You know, he couldn't 0:10:24.836 --> 0:10:26.276 get it. I say, a lot and a lot of 0:10:26.276 --> 0:10:31.836 my family didn't. It's difficult to talk about because I like, 0:10:31.916 --> 0:10:34.356 in so many ways they were successful, you know, But 0:10:34.796 --> 0:10:37.436 at the same time, I knew there was a level 0:10:37.436 --> 0:10:40.356 of life that I wanted to achieve that no one 0:10:40.356 --> 0:10:43.236 in my family had achieved. You know. My dad wanted 0:10:43.276 --> 0:10:45.156 me to go be a cop. Because he's like, that's 0:10:45.196 --> 0:10:48.796 guaranteed income, you can and you can do it. But 0:10:48.956 --> 0:10:50.596 I just had other aspirations. So it was it was 0:10:50.596 --> 0:10:55.356 a weird thing between growing up in a white world 0:10:56.196 --> 0:10:58.796 that didn't necessarily believe in me and growing up in, 0:10:59.316 --> 0:11:01.116 you know, my black family in a black world that 0:11:01.276 --> 0:11:03.956 kind of had a way of thinking that wasn't They 0:11:03.956 --> 0:11:05.436 didn't understand what I was trying to do. 0:11:05.796 --> 0:11:10.036 Yeah, yeah, your dad's not He's not one hundred percent 0:11:10.116 --> 0:11:13.596 wrong being a police officer. And I'm not saying you 0:11:13.636 --> 0:11:17.396 should have done it. I'm just saying from his position, 0:11:18.596 --> 0:11:21.676 being an LAPD officer is assuming that's what he's talking about. Yeah, 0:11:22.676 --> 0:11:23.556 that is a good job. 0:11:23.836 --> 0:11:26.116 It's a great job. I mean in terms of, like 0:11:26.156 --> 0:11:28.196 if you look at just like income and like what 0:11:28.236 --> 0:11:30.636 you could provide for your family, Like, it's a great job. 0:11:30.636 --> 0:11:33.636 But it's the means of there's all an entire generation 0:11:33.716 --> 0:11:35.956 of largely black men who grew up in LA for 0:11:36.036 --> 0:11:40.276 whom the LAPD was the stepping stone. I mean, you 0:11:40.316 --> 0:11:42.116 got a job in the LPD and then your kids 0:11:42.116 --> 0:11:43.556 got to go to college. I mean that was like 0:11:44.156 --> 0:11:46.436 he's reflecting something that was real, right. 0:11:46.396 --> 0:11:48.236 No, it was a real thing, and I don't. At 0:11:48.236 --> 0:11:50.796 the time, I was very I was always upset when 0:11:50.796 --> 0:11:52.996 you bring it up. You know, now I understand why 0:11:53.036 --> 0:11:56.436 he did. But you know, when you have a dream 0:11:56.476 --> 0:11:59.756 and something you want to accomplish, hearing things like that 0:11:59.876 --> 0:12:03.556 don't instill confidence in you. Because I always have to 0:12:03.596 --> 0:12:05.476 hear these quies like well, what a school doesn't work out? 0:12:05.676 --> 0:12:06.916 It's like, well, what do you mean? What was like? 0:12:06.956 --> 0:12:08.476 You know what? Like by the time I get to 0:12:08.516 --> 0:12:11.116 college and I'm meeting people, I'm like, I can very 0:12:11.196 --> 0:12:13.076 much tell that this isn't their experience that they had, 0:12:13.116 --> 0:12:15.436 Like what a school doesn't work out? It was just expected? 0:12:15.556 --> 0:12:15.756 You know? 0:12:16.836 --> 0:12:19.836 Is it your dad? Does he not think you're smart 0:12:19.956 --> 0:12:22.596 enough for college? Or does he think the obstacles facing 0:12:22.636 --> 0:12:26.076 a young black man are too high? What's his what's 0:12:26.076 --> 0:12:26.636 his theory? 0:12:27.596 --> 0:12:29.156 I don't know. My dad thinks he's the smartest man 0:12:29.196 --> 0:12:31.956 in the world, so and I think based he also 0:12:31.956 --> 0:12:33.636 thinks he has the greatest gene pool in the world, 0:12:33.716 --> 0:12:37.236 so I think so, I think based on that he 0:12:37.316 --> 0:12:40.556 knew I was very smart. That was his belief at least. 0:12:40.596 --> 0:12:42.716 But with my dad, I think it very much had 0:12:42.716 --> 0:12:45.076 to do again with like his perception of what was 0:12:45.116 --> 0:12:47.076 possible in the world. You know, he grew up in 0:12:47.116 --> 0:12:49.276 a place called Eudream of Village and Compton, which was 0:12:49.316 --> 0:12:54.556 a housing project that closed down because the soil was toxic. 0:12:55.196 --> 0:12:56.396 Like they didn't know what at the time, but the 0:12:56.396 --> 0:12:58.676 soil was toxic. So people were getting sick and cancer 0:12:58.716 --> 0:13:03.356 and dying, babies being born deformed. And I think it 0:13:03.396 --> 0:13:05.356 was also a sense of maybe his dreams were limited 0:13:05.356 --> 0:13:06.996 to or his not his His dreams were big, but 0:13:07.036 --> 0:13:10.716 I would say his dreams were at some point, I say, 0:13:10.756 --> 0:13:12.356 his dreams are crushed as well. You know, my dad 0:13:12.396 --> 0:13:14.436 did get kicked out of the NFL. The story as 0:13:14.436 --> 0:13:17.036 it's been told to me, So my dad got drafted 0:13:17.036 --> 0:13:19.356 by the Colts in eighty four, I want to say 0:13:19.396 --> 0:13:23.316 eighty five, and the team captain, a white dude, called 0:13:23.316 --> 0:13:26.756 my grandmother a nigger, and so my dad whooped his ass. 0:13:28.516 --> 0:13:31.076 They had it. He got reprimanded, that had a team dinner. 0:13:31.716 --> 0:13:34.956 It happened again, my dad whooped his ass and he 0:13:34.996 --> 0:13:38.436 was kicked off the team. And I think when that is, 0:13:39.396 --> 0:13:41.556 when that's what happens to your dream, I think you 0:13:41.596 --> 0:13:43.076 start to worry in some way. 0:13:43.396 --> 0:13:44.236 Was it his dream? 0:13:44.756 --> 0:13:50.196 Absolutely yeah. Yeah. Does he still have regrets today, I'm 0:13:50.236 --> 0:13:52.916 sure he does. I don't think he regrets that, Like, 0:13:53.916 --> 0:13:56.916 I don't think he regrets whooping the team captain's ass 0:13:56.956 --> 0:14:00.476 or anything. But yeah, I think he wishes it turned 0:14:00.476 --> 0:14:04.116 out different. Absolutely, you know, yeah, does. 0:14:03.956 --> 0:14:06.556 He understand what you're doing now? 0:14:06.836 --> 0:14:10.156 Yeah? Yeah, you know the first the first time he 0:14:10.236 --> 0:14:12.516 really got it. Well, he got it when I went. 0:14:12.596 --> 0:14:14.876 When I got into Berkeley, he was kind of he 0:14:14.956 --> 0:14:18.196 was shocked. I was shocked. My whole family was shocked. 0:14:19.476 --> 0:14:22.396 I couldn't believe it too, so much so that I 0:14:22.396 --> 0:14:25.956 remember I drove up. I drove up, I wrote the counselor. 0:14:26.076 --> 0:14:27.956 I was like, listen, like, I got some I gotta 0:14:28.076 --> 0:14:29.236 I gotta talk to you. I didn't want to do 0:14:29.276 --> 0:14:31.276 it over email, didn't want to do it over phone. 0:14:31.476 --> 0:14:32.836 Like I needed to look this lady in the eyes. 0:14:32.836 --> 0:14:33.836 So I was like, hey, can I meet you? And 0:14:33.876 --> 0:14:35.476 she's like, yes, sure, sure to come down this date 0:14:35.556 --> 0:14:39.076 this time drove up to Berkeley and yes I was. 0:14:39.236 --> 0:14:41.316 I was like, look, I got this deferred a mission. 0:14:42.356 --> 0:14:46.196 This is real. Yeah, this is real, justin, justin. 0:14:47.036 --> 0:14:49.196 You're living in Orange County at the time. 0:14:49.196 --> 0:14:53.596 I'm living in La in La. You drove six hours yeah, 0:14:53.636 --> 0:14:55.876 to Berkeley, yeah, six seven eight. 0:14:55.916 --> 0:14:59.516 To ask official of Berkeley whether your acceptance that it 0:14:59.636 --> 0:14:59.996 was real. 0:15:00.436 --> 0:15:03.076 I came that far. I wasn't gonna lie. And then 0:15:03.156 --> 0:15:04.956 also like try to figure out how to run a 0:15:04.996 --> 0:15:06.956 place up there and pay a mission just to not 0:15:07.236 --> 0:15:09.996 so I drove up there, and you know, so, I'm 0:15:10.796 --> 0:15:12.516 is this real? And she goes, yes, this is real? 0:15:12.556 --> 0:15:16.196 So I go, so I could start January fifteen, Yes, 0:15:16.236 --> 0:15:20.396 you can as a philosophy major. Yes, okay, and I 0:15:20.396 --> 0:15:25.076 can switch my major if I want once I get in, yes, right, 0:15:25.476 --> 0:15:27.276 you know. And then and then and I'm kind of 0:15:27.316 --> 0:15:29.836 trying to work up to also like so, and I asked, 0:15:29.876 --> 0:15:32.796 I said, listen, I'm gonna be honest with you, Okay, 0:15:33.476 --> 0:15:36.236 Like I don't have a high school diploma, I don't 0:15:36.236 --> 0:15:40.516 have a GED, I don't have an equivalency, so you 0:15:40.516 --> 0:15:42.236 should like so based on that now you said already 0:15:42.236 --> 0:15:43.676 said this was real, but based on now, with this 0:15:43.836 --> 0:15:47.156 new information, based on that, is this really? Is? Can 0:15:47.196 --> 0:15:47.916 I really come here? 0:15:47.956 --> 0:15:50.996 We skipped a step. The step we skipped was you 0:15:50.996 --> 0:15:52.516 didn't graduate from high school? 0:15:52.796 --> 0:15:53.836 Na I left at fourteen? 0:15:54.516 --> 0:15:55.276 At fourteen? 0:15:55.356 --> 0:15:56.716 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I left at fourteen. 0:15:57.036 --> 0:15:59.716 I also didn't graduate from high school, but that's because 0:15:59.716 --> 0:16:02.756 my mom called the principal and said, Malcolm won't be 0:16:02.796 --> 0:16:05.876 coming in. He's more productive at home. That was it. 0:16:05.996 --> 0:16:08.676 So everyone was like, okay, fine, like that's you know, 0:16:08.676 --> 0:16:10.436 that's a very that's the world I grew up, and 0:16:10.476 --> 0:16:15.116 it was forgiving, understanding, do what you want kind of world. Wait, 0:16:15.196 --> 0:16:16.996 you left high school at fourteen to do what? 0:16:19.956 --> 0:16:25.996 Yeah? Nothing good? Yeah, nothing good. I would say I 0:16:26.036 --> 0:16:27.836 was pretty beat down by that point, you know, like 0:16:27.916 --> 0:16:31.756 confidence wise, I didn't know what I was doing. So yeah, 0:16:31.756 --> 0:16:37.476 I left and I was I was just doing my 0:16:37.516 --> 0:16:37.956 own thing. 0:16:38.596 --> 0:16:40.236 What's your mom doing when you're doing this? 0:16:40.356 --> 0:16:42.876 So here's what happened. Was so like basically my freshman 0:16:42.916 --> 0:16:45.556 year high school, I was so rock binding with my confidence, 0:16:45.596 --> 0:16:48.316 Like I had basically like a zero point something GPA, 0:16:48.516 --> 0:16:50.596 like I had like no GPAs. It was literally zero 0:16:50.636 --> 0:16:53.756 point something. And the only the highest grade I got 0:16:54.276 --> 0:16:56.236 was I thought it was a C, but it turns 0:16:56.276 --> 0:16:58.916 out it was a D. I got a D in journalism. Yeah, 0:16:58.956 --> 0:17:00.956 and the teacher pulled me aside. He's like, justin, you're 0:17:00.996 --> 0:17:03.236 too smart to fail. You deserve an F I'm not 0:17:03.236 --> 0:17:04.436 gonna give you a F. I'm gonna give you a D. 0:17:04.516 --> 0:17:06.076 I was like, oh, thank you, mister Muller. But it 0:17:06.116 --> 0:17:07.396 was like a zero point something. So they said you're 0:17:07.396 --> 0:17:09.996 gonna have to go to continuation school, which was just 0:17:10.036 --> 0:17:12.596 like a school, like, you know, for for fuck ups. 0:17:13.196 --> 0:17:15.476 And my mom was like, you're not a fuck up, 0:17:15.516 --> 0:17:18.556 so you're not gonna You're not gonna go there. I go, okay. 0:17:19.636 --> 0:17:22.076 She's like, I almost have you stay home, and uh, 0:17:23.956 --> 0:17:25.596 this it sounds crazy, but I got to give her 0:17:25.636 --> 0:17:27.476 credit because it didn't work for a bit, but then 0:17:27.516 --> 0:17:29.876 it really worked. She's like, I'm just going to stay home. 0:17:29.916 --> 0:17:32.036 You're gonna read the paper every day while am at work. 0:17:32.596 --> 0:17:34.476 I'm gonna come home. You're gonna have a little report 0:17:35.036 --> 0:17:39.316 on a couple of items you read. And of course, 0:17:39.636 --> 0:17:43.476 you know, for the longest, like I just took advantage. 0:17:43.516 --> 0:17:45.156 I didn't do it, you know, like I just didn't. 0:17:45.236 --> 0:17:47.796 She didn't want me being with fuck ups because she did. 0:17:48.196 --> 0:17:50.196 She already could see I think that my confidence was 0:17:50.436 --> 0:17:52.436 shot and that was just gonna be worse, so she 0:17:52.516 --> 0:17:55.476 pulled me out. I took advantage of it. I didn't 0:17:55.476 --> 0:18:03.516 do much until I was like almost sixteen. Common story, 0:18:03.556 --> 0:18:05.516 I feel like for a lot of people. I got 0:18:05.516 --> 0:18:08.796 a copy of the autobiography of Malcolm X and it 0:18:08.876 --> 0:18:15.596 really reignited my ambition. So then at that point, I'm 0:18:15.636 --> 0:18:17.716 roll in community college because I didn't really want to 0:18:17.756 --> 0:18:20.836 deal with like trying to start over from my freshman 0:18:20.916 --> 0:18:23.676 year of high school. So I rolled in community college 0:18:23.716 --> 0:18:25.516 and just did that for about four or five years, 0:18:25.556 --> 0:18:27.796 and so I could transfer. I transfer. So I started 0:18:27.836 --> 0:18:30.116 that at like just before I turned sixteen, and I 0:18:30.156 --> 0:18:31.876 transferred to Berkeley at twenty one. 0:18:32.556 --> 0:18:37.996 Let me see, we'll get back to Berkeley and how 0:18:38.076 --> 0:18:50.356 things turned around for Justin in a moment. Back to 0:18:50.396 --> 0:18:54.236 my conversation with Justin Richmond at the Edison O. Jackson 0:18:54.396 --> 0:18:59.196 Auditorium at Medgar Evers College. Justin was finding his place 0:18:59.276 --> 0:19:04.956 at Berkeley. So you have a kind of loss of 0:19:05.036 --> 0:19:10.756 confidence and do you get it back in Burke at Berkeley. 0:19:10.956 --> 0:19:14.996 Yeah, one hundred percent. Gabrielle Williams right here. I met 0:19:15.036 --> 0:19:18.356 Gabrielle at Berkeley. She was doing her PhD. We met 0:19:18.356 --> 0:19:20.356 at the Black Student Lounge or it was the the 0:19:21.596 --> 0:19:24.156 that was like her her student job thing, and she 0:19:24.236 --> 0:19:26.636 was listening to music and I heard, so we connected 0:19:26.876 --> 0:19:29.436 and there was a professor there by the name of 0:19:29.476 --> 0:19:33.556 Ricky Vincent. He was like the pre eminent funk music 0:19:33.596 --> 0:19:36.636 scholar and was writing a book on the Black Panthers, 0:19:37.036 --> 0:19:39.236 and I had a strong interest in the Panthers. So 0:19:39.596 --> 0:19:42.876 like between like Gabrielle and Ricky Vincent and all these 0:19:43.356 --> 0:19:45.916 other black folk that looked like me that I could 0:19:45.956 --> 0:19:49.516 relate to. And for Gabrielle coming from from La southern California, 0:19:49.556 --> 0:19:53.076 like there was just a lot in common. It definitely 0:19:53.076 --> 0:19:55.396 a hundred percent helped me. But but she also helped 0:19:55.436 --> 0:19:58.676 me through a lot because there's many times I've called Gabrielle, 0:19:59.596 --> 0:20:02.516 including when I took this job at Pushkin, like I 0:20:02.676 --> 0:20:05.716 really do this, this is a smart move and shout 0:20:05.756 --> 0:20:07.916 out to talk. You know, when I got into grad school, Man, 0:20:07.956 --> 0:20:09.916