1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:25,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Malcolm Gladwell and today on Revisionist History, I 2 00:00:25,156 --> 00:00:27,476 Speaker 1: have a special treat I'm going to play for you 3 00:00:27,796 --> 00:00:30,196 Speaker 1: an interview I did with an old friend in Pushkin 4 00:00:30,276 --> 00:00:33,836 Speaker 1: co conspirator Justin Richmond, who you may know from our 5 00:00:33,916 --> 00:00:37,596 Speaker 1: music show Broken Record, which Justin has made happen since 6 00:00:37,756 --> 00:00:43,116 Speaker 1: the beginning. But now Justin has his own gig. He's 7 00:00:43,116 --> 00:00:46,076 Speaker 1: the creator and host of a new podcast called Started 8 00:00:46,196 --> 00:00:50,156 Speaker 1: from the Bottom. It's a show about origin stories, particularly 9 00:00:50,356 --> 00:00:53,476 Speaker 1: the origin stories of men and women of color, how 10 00:00:53,476 --> 00:00:55,916 Speaker 1: they climbed their way up the ladder, the obstacles they 11 00:00:55,996 --> 00:00:59,156 Speaker 1: overcame along the way. And for this episode that I'm 12 00:00:59,156 --> 00:01:01,316 Speaker 1: about to play for you, I turned the tables on 13 00:01:01,556 --> 00:01:04,796 Speaker 1: Justin and I interviewed him. We did it in front 14 00:01:04,796 --> 00:01:07,516 Speaker 1: of a group of students and faculty at Medgar Evers 15 00:01:07,516 --> 00:01:10,036 Speaker 1: College on the side of the old Evie Field in Brooklyn, 16 00:01:10,036 --> 00:01:13,116 Speaker 1: New York. As someone of West Indian heritage, let me 17 00:01:13,196 --> 00:01:16,796 Speaker 1: just say how gratified I was at the heavy West 18 00:01:16,836 --> 00:01:19,956 Speaker 1: Indian turnout for this, And in good West Indian fashion, 19 00:01:20,396 --> 00:01:22,356 Speaker 1: they asked some pretty good questions at the end too. 20 00:01:22,916 --> 00:01:26,996 Speaker 1: So here we go my conversation with my good friend 21 00:01:27,036 --> 00:01:27,956 Speaker 1: Justin Richmond. 22 00:01:30,476 --> 00:01:33,036 Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, who is this song? Check? Check ye a 23 00:01:33,196 --> 00:01:38,716 Speaker 2: single race, So welcome. This is the first time I've 24 00:01:38,716 --> 00:01:41,756 Speaker 2: ever done anything like this, and it is certainly the 25 00:01:41,756 --> 00:01:45,916 Speaker 2: first live taping of started from the bottom. So thank 26 00:01:45,956 --> 00:02:02,276 Speaker 2: you so much for coming, Malcolm, thank you so much 27 00:02:02,276 --> 00:02:02,796 Speaker 2: for doing this. 28 00:02:03,156 --> 00:02:05,836 Speaker 1: Not at all, it's my pleasure, Justin. I've long dreamed 29 00:02:05,876 --> 00:02:07,076 Speaker 1: of being on a stage with you. 30 00:02:08,916 --> 00:02:12,476 Speaker 2: I can't imagine that's true, but it's very nice of 31 00:02:12,516 --> 00:02:13,196 Speaker 2: you to say no. 32 00:02:13,276 --> 00:02:16,596 Speaker 1: I think I hope this is the start of many 33 00:02:16,636 --> 00:02:19,396 Speaker 1: of these Justin, But I think premise of today's is 34 00:02:19,436 --> 00:02:22,556 Speaker 1: that I'm interviewing you, right, That's not our plan. 35 00:02:22,916 --> 00:02:23,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, we. 36 00:02:23,916 --> 00:02:25,836 Speaker 1: Want to get the Justin. We want to get the 37 00:02:26,196 --> 00:02:27,116 Speaker 1: Justin Richmond. 38 00:02:26,836 --> 00:02:29,916 Speaker 2: Origin stories, a little introduction in me, I guess, yeah, yeah. 39 00:02:29,796 --> 00:02:32,196 Speaker 1: The which you know. I love these things because I've 40 00:02:32,236 --> 00:02:35,596 Speaker 1: often I'm a firm believer that if you want to 41 00:02:35,596 --> 00:02:38,676 Speaker 1: get to know somebody, even if they've done a lifetime 42 00:02:38,676 --> 00:02:42,076 Speaker 1: of interesting things, if you just do the first twenty years, 43 00:02:42,076 --> 00:02:47,116 Speaker 1: you get most of what you need. Right that it's 44 00:02:47,156 --> 00:02:50,476 Speaker 1: a surprising how much you can glean from. So let's start. 45 00:02:50,556 --> 00:02:53,876 Speaker 1: Let's do the Justin Richmond analysis and I wanted to 46 00:02:53,916 --> 00:02:56,476 Speaker 1: start with a thing we have in common. Now you 47 00:02:56,516 --> 00:02:57,956 Speaker 1: might look at us and say, what on earth do 48 00:02:57,996 --> 00:03:00,076 Speaker 1: they have in common? But we do have one very 49 00:03:00,076 --> 00:03:03,476 Speaker 1: significant fact in common, which is we're both the product 50 00:03:03,476 --> 00:03:06,596 Speaker 1: of biracial marriages. Yeah, and I wanted to start with that. 51 00:03:06,876 --> 00:03:09,356 Speaker 1: First of all, you're more obviously biracial, and me, I 52 00:03:09,396 --> 00:03:13,076 Speaker 1: don't know how that happened. You, I'm a little more 53 00:03:13,116 --> 00:03:14,636 Speaker 1: subtle yours. 54 00:03:15,476 --> 00:03:17,036 Speaker 2: Your dad would say it's his jeans. 55 00:03:18,516 --> 00:03:21,036 Speaker 1: So you're tell me about your parents. Let's start with 56 00:03:21,076 --> 00:03:22,516 Speaker 1: those two. How did they meet? 57 00:03:22,756 --> 00:03:25,476 Speaker 2: Justin to start with that, they met at Compton Community College. 58 00:03:26,316 --> 00:03:29,396 Speaker 2: So he grew up in Compton and and my mom 59 00:03:29,476 --> 00:03:31,076 Speaker 2: was there for I don't even know why she was there, 60 00:03:31,116 --> 00:03:34,396 Speaker 2: but she was there. She was friends with someone there 61 00:03:34,596 --> 00:03:36,596 Speaker 2: and so she was there. They met. 62 00:03:36,996 --> 00:03:38,276 Speaker 1: Where does your mom grow up? 63 00:03:38,836 --> 00:03:41,796 Speaker 2: My mom grew up in a city called Almonte, which 64 00:03:41,836 --> 00:03:46,316 Speaker 2: is by Pasadena. My mom grew up on the racetrack. 65 00:03:46,316 --> 00:03:48,916 Speaker 2: Her dad was a racehorse trainer, so she grew up 66 00:03:48,956 --> 00:03:53,956 Speaker 2: on the racetrack. And Yeah, they're very different people even 67 00:03:54,076 --> 00:03:55,956 Speaker 2: to this day. And it might be because they've never 68 00:03:56,036 --> 00:03:58,876 Speaker 2: seen them together, but my kids still cannot wrap their 69 00:03:58,876 --> 00:04:01,156 Speaker 2: heads around that my parents, like you know that there's 70 00:04:01,196 --> 00:04:06,276 Speaker 2: any relationship between them or ever was you know, they 71 00:04:06,316 --> 00:04:09,556 Speaker 2: were never together, they were never married, but yeah, like 72 00:04:09,596 --> 00:04:11,236 Speaker 2: they liked they just liked each other, you know. 73 00:04:11,396 --> 00:04:13,196 Speaker 1: So how long were they together. 74 00:04:14,836 --> 00:04:17,076 Speaker 2: Off and on? About five years? Four years? 75 00:04:17,476 --> 00:04:20,196 Speaker 1: So you have very few memories of the two of 76 00:04:20,236 --> 00:04:21,516 Speaker 1: them as in a couple. 77 00:04:21,476 --> 00:04:24,356 Speaker 2: Very few early on, Like I remember being over at 78 00:04:24,356 --> 00:04:27,276 Speaker 2: his house because I have two half brothers, so early 79 00:04:27,316 --> 00:04:29,556 Speaker 2: on I remember being over there with them, going to 80 00:04:29,596 --> 00:04:33,516 Speaker 2: Disneyland on occasion. Well, yeah, the memories are very sporadic 81 00:04:33,556 --> 00:04:34,036 Speaker 2: early on. 82 00:04:34,196 --> 00:04:38,796 Speaker 1: You know of them, and you're raised by your mom, 83 00:04:39,276 --> 00:04:42,236 Speaker 1: raised a bit by both, but primarily by my mom. Yeah, 84 00:04:42,276 --> 00:04:44,756 Speaker 1: and where you grow in Long Beach or yes. 85 00:04:44,676 --> 00:04:47,076 Speaker 2: In Long Beach. And then at five, my mom moved 86 00:04:47,076 --> 00:04:49,396 Speaker 2: to the city of Orange, which is in Orange County, 87 00:04:49,396 --> 00:04:52,596 Speaker 2: which is about twenty minutes south of Long Beach. 88 00:04:52,676 --> 00:04:54,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, what is Orange? 89 00:04:54,916 --> 00:04:59,996 Speaker 2: Like Orange and far as places in Orange County, go 90 00:05:00,316 --> 00:05:04,356 Speaker 2: is pretty diverse. There's a large Latino community there, but 91 00:05:04,756 --> 00:05:10,796 Speaker 2: aside from the Latino population, it's overwhelmingly white. And that 92 00:05:10,996 --> 00:05:13,156 Speaker 2: was it. That was a change from me even having 93 00:05:13,236 --> 00:05:15,796 Speaker 2: white parents, like even having like my mom being white 94 00:05:16,116 --> 00:05:17,996 Speaker 2: and having that whole side of my family be white. 95 00:05:18,396 --> 00:05:20,636 Speaker 2: I never thought of it that way until I showed up. 96 00:05:21,156 --> 00:05:22,836 Speaker 2: You know, she moved there right before I started, a 97 00:05:22,876 --> 00:05:25,276 Speaker 2: month before I started kindergarten. And I remember my first 98 00:05:25,316 --> 00:05:27,556 Speaker 2: day of kindergarten. I rolled up and I had this 99 00:05:27,636 --> 00:05:29,156 Speaker 2: is ninety four, so I had a Power Range of 100 00:05:29,196 --> 00:05:31,476 Speaker 2: shirt on. I thought I was real cool, Power Rangers 101 00:05:31,516 --> 00:05:33,756 Speaker 2: lunch box. I really thought I was nervous, but I 102 00:05:33,756 --> 00:05:35,556 Speaker 2: thought I was fresh. I thought it was good, right, 103 00:05:36,116 --> 00:05:41,316 Speaker 2: And I'll never forget this kid who was in line 104 00:05:41,396 --> 00:05:43,036 Speaker 2: in front of me, like, look back at me, and 105 00:05:43,516 --> 00:05:46,196 Speaker 2: this is the first time. Like again, I'm like, I'm 106 00:05:46,236 --> 00:05:48,916 Speaker 2: not really realizing the differences between us yet. But he 107 00:05:48,956 --> 00:05:51,676 Speaker 2: turns dound and looks at me and goes, are you poor? 108 00:05:52,916 --> 00:05:56,156 Speaker 2: Are you poor? Yeah? Yeah yeah? And I was like 109 00:05:56,156 --> 00:05:58,436 Speaker 2: like you what do you mean? And he's like, you 110 00:05:58,476 --> 00:06:01,876 Speaker 2: look poor? Are you poor? And I was like what, 111 00:06:02,076 --> 00:06:04,116 Speaker 2: you know, I was just deflated. I didn't know exactly 112 00:06:04,116 --> 00:06:05,516 Speaker 2: what to think about it at the moment. I was. 113 00:06:05,596 --> 00:06:07,556 Speaker 2: I was just deflated just because you know, your five 114 00:06:07,636 --> 00:06:11,156 Speaker 2: year old you go into kindergarten. Ryna. We had just moved, 115 00:06:11,996 --> 00:06:14,116 Speaker 2: and I thought it looked good, but apparently I looked poor. 116 00:06:15,436 --> 00:06:16,356 Speaker 2: I remember his name? 117 00:06:16,596 --> 00:06:17,636 Speaker 1: Should you tell your mom? 118 00:06:17,796 --> 00:06:19,516 Speaker 2: Yes, I did that. I remember that. I remember, I 119 00:06:19,556 --> 00:06:24,756 Speaker 2: remember going home and talking to my mom and uh yeah. 120 00:06:24,796 --> 00:06:29,036 Speaker 2: I mean that's when I think her hope was that 121 00:06:29,156 --> 00:06:32,676 Speaker 2: it would take a little bit long for those dynamic, 122 00:06:32,756 --> 00:06:35,396 Speaker 2: for that dynamic to set in, right. But that's when 123 00:06:35,436 --> 00:06:38,156 Speaker 2: we had, you know, when she started talking to me 124 00:06:38,196 --> 00:06:41,436 Speaker 2: about the fact that I am now at this overwhelmingly 125 00:06:41,436 --> 00:06:44,396 Speaker 2: white place and many of the people I'm going to 126 00:06:44,436 --> 00:06:48,676 Speaker 2: be around are likely growing up, if not out and 127 00:06:48,676 --> 00:06:51,956 Speaker 2: now racist, racist things being said in their household, They're 128 00:06:51,996 --> 00:06:53,796 Speaker 2: going to be parroting those things back. 129 00:06:55,436 --> 00:06:58,756 Speaker 1: At that. So if I asked you in say, in 130 00:06:58,836 --> 00:07:02,996 Speaker 1: middle school, to how you would describe yourself racially, what 131 00:07:03,036 --> 00:07:03,676 Speaker 1: would you have said? 132 00:07:03,716 --> 00:07:06,676 Speaker 2: Black? I knew I was black, you just because because 133 00:07:06,716 --> 00:07:09,636 Speaker 2: of my experience, Because of that experience going to the 134 00:07:09,996 --> 00:07:12,716 Speaker 2: so you know, off, I would say, off and on. 135 00:07:12,716 --> 00:07:15,956 Speaker 2: Between kindergarten and ninth grade, I was going to overwhelmingly 136 00:07:15,956 --> 00:07:18,396 Speaker 2: white schools, and you know, these are places where I 137 00:07:18,396 --> 00:07:20,356 Speaker 2: would get called nigger. You know. So when you're getting 138 00:07:20,396 --> 00:07:22,756 Speaker 2: called nigger, you know what you are, you know. And 139 00:07:22,796 --> 00:07:24,956 Speaker 2: then I go talk to my dad about it. He goes, well, 140 00:07:24,996 --> 00:07:26,676 Speaker 2: you are niggas, so but you know that was like 141 00:07:26,716 --> 00:07:28,396 Speaker 2: his way of trying to be like, yeah, you are niggas, 142 00:07:28,436 --> 00:07:34,596 Speaker 2: so yeah. You know. So I definitely knew what I was. 143 00:07:34,636 --> 00:07:40,876 Speaker 2: I knew I was black. And where it got well, 144 00:07:40,876 --> 00:07:44,636 Speaker 2: I see where it got difficult was when probably in 145 00:07:44,796 --> 00:07:47,516 Speaker 2: junior high, when it was teachers who I think sort 146 00:07:47,556 --> 00:07:50,756 Speaker 2: of interacting with me differently because of my color, you know, 147 00:07:50,836 --> 00:07:52,396 Speaker 2: like I had. I got in a lot of trouble 148 00:07:53,276 --> 00:07:56,196 Speaker 2: because I grew locks, and I remember they wanted to 149 00:07:56,236 --> 00:07:58,396 Speaker 2: kick me out of school. There was a there was 150 00:07:58,436 --> 00:08:03,516 Speaker 2: a neo Nazi kid named. 151 00:08:02,036 --> 00:08:05,676 Speaker 1: Your name, and all these people like on the bulletin board, 152 00:08:05,836 --> 00:08:06,636 Speaker 1: where are you man? 153 00:08:06,796 --> 00:08:08,676 Speaker 2: Right? And every day with him go you know, it 154 00:08:08,756 --> 00:08:10,676 Speaker 2: was go back to Africa. I mean it got to 155 00:08:10,676 --> 00:08:15,636 Speaker 2: the point police got involved, you know, and he never 156 00:08:15,676 --> 00:08:18,996 Speaker 2: got kicked out of school somehow. But but I would 157 00:08:19,036 --> 00:08:20,996 Speaker 2: say the point in junior high is when teachers I 158 00:08:21,036 --> 00:08:25,756 Speaker 2: started getting just weird comments from teachers and weird nothing 159 00:08:25,756 --> 00:08:27,836 Speaker 2: I did was ever good enough. There's always a perception 160 00:08:27,876 --> 00:08:30,716 Speaker 2: that I was lazy. And that's when I think because 161 00:08:30,716 --> 00:08:32,556 Speaker 2: I was. I was always a smart kid and because 162 00:08:32,596 --> 00:08:35,996 Speaker 2: my dad played football, because I was so tall, I 163 00:08:36,036 --> 00:08:38,316 Speaker 2: was always tall. The perception was always that I was 164 00:08:38,356 --> 00:08:42,076 Speaker 2: going to go and be an athlete. But from early age, 165 00:08:42,196 --> 00:08:44,796 Speaker 2: I realized I wanted to cut against that. Like I 166 00:08:44,796 --> 00:08:47,476 Speaker 2: didn't want okay, cool, Yeah I can I can play ball, 167 00:08:47,756 --> 00:08:50,116 Speaker 2: I can do that. But what I realized I really 168 00:08:50,196 --> 00:08:53,276 Speaker 2: wanted was to show people, Like early on, I kind 169 00:08:53,276 --> 00:08:57,316 Speaker 2: of got this need to prove people wrong in me, 170 00:08:57,516 --> 00:09:00,476 Speaker 2: and so I felt like I always wanted to be. 171 00:09:01,276 --> 00:09:03,076 Speaker 2: I always wanted to be the smartest person in the 172 00:09:03,156 --> 00:09:05,876 Speaker 2: room at that point as a young kid, and I 173 00:09:05,916 --> 00:09:08,716 Speaker 2: didn't always have the confidence that I was, but I deep, 174 00:09:08,756 --> 00:09:10,716 Speaker 2: deep down somewhere I wanted to be. And by the 175 00:09:10,756 --> 00:09:12,796 Speaker 2: time I got to to junior high and the teachers 176 00:09:12,796 --> 00:09:15,876 Speaker 2: were sort of I have these these odd interactions. I 177 00:09:15,916 --> 00:09:18,316 Speaker 2: think that's when I started to That's when my my 178 00:09:18,436 --> 00:09:21,196 Speaker 2: interest in education started to wane and my I would say, 179 00:09:21,196 --> 00:09:23,796 Speaker 2: my pride and myself started to win. 180 00:09:23,916 --> 00:09:26,116 Speaker 1: How many black teachers did you have in your public 181 00:09:26,116 --> 00:09:26,796 Speaker 1: school experience? 182 00:09:27,836 --> 00:09:29,036 Speaker 2: Zero? Zero? 183 00:09:30,276 --> 00:09:31,476 Speaker 1: They got something to do with it. 184 00:09:32,836 --> 00:09:34,596 Speaker 2: I think that's a big thing, has a big part 185 00:09:34,596 --> 00:09:37,396 Speaker 2: to do with it. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, you got it. 186 00:09:37,556 --> 00:09:40,876 Speaker 2: And that's the premise of my show, if you're not around, 187 00:09:42,116 --> 00:09:44,796 Speaker 2: if you're not around people who look like you, who 188 00:09:44,916 --> 00:09:48,476 Speaker 2: are successful, you know. And my dad, God bless him, 189 00:09:48,476 --> 00:09:50,156 Speaker 2: you know. He was an NFL so to degree was 190 00:09:50,156 --> 00:09:52,796 Speaker 2: a success. But my dad and I love him. But 191 00:09:52,996 --> 00:09:55,996 Speaker 2: you know, he also like has a very small way 192 00:09:56,036 --> 00:09:58,356 Speaker 2: of thinking, you know, and so I never really felt 193 00:09:58,396 --> 00:10:00,956 Speaker 2: like I had someone. 194 00:10:02,036 --> 00:10:03,876 Speaker 1: What do you mean by a small way of thinking? 195 00:10:06,156 --> 00:10:08,076 Speaker 2: For him, it was always like, yeah, just go be 196 00:10:08,116 --> 00:10:09,676 Speaker 2: a cop, you know, Like that's sure money. Like you 197 00:10:09,716 --> 00:10:11,956 Speaker 2: can go be a cop. You can get one hundred 198 00:10:11,996 --> 00:10:14,076 Speaker 2: grand a year. With over time, you can make like 199 00:10:14,116 --> 00:10:16,356 Speaker 2: one twenty Like what are you doing with this college thing? 200 00:10:16,396 --> 00:10:17,956 Speaker 2: What are you doing with school? You know, like they didn't. 201 00:10:18,156 --> 00:10:22,996 Speaker 2: He couldn't get that I wanted to be that. I 202 00:10:22,996 --> 00:10:24,836 Speaker 2: wanted to be an educated brother. You know, he couldn't 203 00:10:24,836 --> 00:10:26,276 Speaker 2: get it. I say, a lot and a lot of 204 00:10:26,276 --> 00:10:31,836 Speaker 2: my family didn't. It's difficult to talk about because I like, 205 00:10:31,916 --> 00:10:34,356 Speaker 2: in so many ways they were successful, you know, But 206 00:10:34,796 --> 00:10:37,436 Speaker 2: at the same time, I knew there was a level 207 00:10:37,436 --> 00:10:40,356 Speaker 2: of life that I wanted to achieve that no one 208 00:10:40,356 --> 00:10:43,236 Speaker 2: in my family had achieved. You know. My dad wanted 209 00:10:43,276 --> 00:10:45,156 Speaker 2: me to go be a cop. Because he's like, that's 210 00:10:45,196 --> 00:10:48,796 Speaker 2: guaranteed income, you can and you can do it. But 211 00:10:48,956 --> 00:10:50,596 Speaker 2: I just had other aspirations. So it was it was 212 00:10:50,596 --> 00:10:55,356 Speaker 2: a weird thing between growing up in a white world 213 00:10:56,196 --> 00:10:58,796 Speaker 2: that didn't necessarily believe in me and growing up in, 214 00:10:59,316 --> 00:11:01,116 Speaker 2: you know, my black family in a black world that 215 00:11:01,276 --> 00:11:03,956 Speaker 2: kind of had a way of thinking that wasn't They 216 00:11:03,956 --> 00:11:05,436 Speaker 2: didn't understand what I was trying to do. 217 00:11:05,796 --> 00:11:10,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, your dad's not He's not one hundred percent 218 00:11:10,116 --> 00:11:13,596 Speaker 1: wrong being a police officer. And I'm not saying you 219 00:11:13,636 --> 00:11:17,396 Speaker 1: should have done it. I'm just saying from his position, 220 00:11:18,596 --> 00:11:21,676 Speaker 1: being an LAPD officer is assuming that's what he's talking about. Yeah, 221 00:11:22,676 --> 00:11:23,556 Speaker 1: that is a good job. 222 00:11:23,836 --> 00:11:26,116 Speaker 2: It's a great job. I mean in terms of, like 223 00:11:26,156 --> 00:11:28,196 Speaker 2: if you look at just like income and like what 224 00:11:28,236 --> 00:11:30,636 Speaker 2: you could provide for your family, Like, it's a great job. 225 00:11:30,636 --> 00:11:33,636 Speaker 1: But it's the means of there's all an entire generation 226 00:11:33,716 --> 00:11:35,956 Speaker 1: of largely black men who grew up in LA for 227 00:11:36,036 --> 00:11:40,276 Speaker 1: whom the LAPD was the stepping stone. I mean, you 228 00:11:40,316 --> 00:11:42,116 Speaker 1: got a job in the LPD and then your kids 229 00:11:42,116 --> 00:11:43,556 Speaker 1: got to go to college. I mean that was like 230 00:11:44,156 --> 00:11:46,436 Speaker 1: he's reflecting something that was real, right. 231 00:11:46,396 --> 00:11:48,236 Speaker 2: No, it was a real thing, and I don't. At 232 00:11:48,236 --> 00:11:50,796 Speaker 2: the time, I was very I was always upset when 233 00:11:50,796 --> 00:11:52,996 Speaker 2: you bring it up. You know, now I understand why 234 00:11:53,036 --> 00:11:56,436 Speaker 2: he did. But you know, when you have a dream 235 00:11:56,476 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 2: and something you want to accomplish, hearing things like that 236 00:11:59,876 --> 00:12:03,556 Speaker 2: don't instill confidence in you. Because I always have to 237 00:12:03,596 --> 00:12:05,476 Speaker 2: hear these quies like well, what a school doesn't work out? 238 00:12:05,676 --> 00:12:06,916 Speaker 2: It's like, well, what do you mean? What was like? 239 00:12:06,956 --> 00:12:08,476 Speaker 2: You know what? Like by the time I get to 240 00:12:08,516 --> 00:12:11,116 Speaker 2: college and I'm meeting people, I'm like, I can very 241 00:12:11,196 --> 00:12:13,076 Speaker 2: much tell that this isn't their experience that they had, 242 00:12:13,116 --> 00:12:15,436 Speaker 2: Like what a school doesn't work out? It was just expected? 243 00:12:15,556 --> 00:12:15,756 Speaker 2: You know? 244 00:12:16,836 --> 00:12:19,836 Speaker 1: Is it your dad? Does he not think you're smart 245 00:12:19,956 --> 00:12:22,596 Speaker 1: enough for college? Or does he think the obstacles facing 246 00:12:22,636 --> 00:12:26,076 Speaker 1: a young black man are too high? What's his what's 247 00:12:26,076 --> 00:12:26,636 Speaker 1: his theory? 248 00:12:27,596 --> 00:12:29,156 Speaker 2: I don't know. My dad thinks he's the smartest man 249 00:12:29,196 --> 00:12:31,956 Speaker 2: in the world, so and I think based he also 250 00:12:31,956 --> 00:12:33,636 Speaker 2: thinks he has the greatest gene pool in the world, 251 00:12:33,716 --> 00:12:37,236 Speaker 2: so I think so, I think based on that he 252 00:12:37,316 --> 00:12:40,556 Speaker 2: knew I was very smart. That was his belief at least. 253 00:12:40,596 --> 00:12:42,716 Speaker 2: But with my dad, I think it very much had 254 00:12:42,716 --> 00:12:45,076 Speaker 2: to do again with like his perception of what was 255 00:12:45,116 --> 00:12:47,076 Speaker 2: possible in the world. You know, he grew up in 256 00:12:47,116 --> 00:12:49,276 Speaker 2: a place called Eudream of Village and Compton, which was 257 00:12:49,316 --> 00:12:54,556 Speaker 2: a housing project that closed down because the soil was toxic. 258 00:12:55,196 --> 00:12:56,396 Speaker 2: Like they didn't know what at the time, but the 259 00:12:56,396 --> 00:12:58,676 Speaker 2: soil was toxic. So people were getting sick and cancer 260 00:12:58,716 --> 00:13:03,356 Speaker 2: and dying, babies being born deformed. And I think it 261 00:13:03,396 --> 00:13:05,356 Speaker 2: was also a sense of maybe his dreams were limited 262 00:13:05,356 --> 00:13:06,996 Speaker 2: to or his not his His dreams were big, but 263 00:13:07,036 --> 00:13:10,716 Speaker 2: I would say his dreams were at some point, I say, 264 00:13:10,756 --> 00:13:12,356 Speaker 2: his dreams are crushed as well. You know, my dad 265 00:13:12,396 --> 00:13:14,436 Speaker 2: did get kicked out of the NFL. The story as 266 00:13:14,436 --> 00:13:17,036 Speaker 2: it's been told to me, So my dad got drafted 267 00:13:17,036 --> 00:13:19,356 Speaker 2: by the Colts in eighty four, I want to say 268 00:13:19,396 --> 00:13:23,316 Speaker 2: eighty five, and the team captain, a white dude, called 269 00:13:23,316 --> 00:13:26,756 Speaker 2: my grandmother a nigger, and so my dad whooped his ass. 270 00:13:28,516 --> 00:13:31,076 Speaker 2: They had it. He got reprimanded, that had a team dinner. 271 00:13:31,716 --> 00:13:34,956 Speaker 2: It happened again, my dad whooped his ass and he 272 00:13:34,996 --> 00:13:38,436 Speaker 2: was kicked off the team. And I think when that is, 273 00:13:39,396 --> 00:13:41,556 Speaker 2: when that's what happens to your dream, I think you 274 00:13:41,596 --> 00:13:43,076 Speaker 2: start to worry in some way. 275 00:13:43,396 --> 00:13:44,236 Speaker 1: Was it his dream? 276 00:13:44,756 --> 00:13:50,196 Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah. Yeah. Does he still have regrets today, I'm 277 00:13:50,236 --> 00:13:52,916 Speaker 2: sure he does. I don't think he regrets that, Like, 278 00:13:53,916 --> 00:13:56,916 Speaker 2: I don't think he regrets whooping the team captain's ass 279 00:13:56,956 --> 00:14:00,476 Speaker 2: or anything. But yeah, I think he wishes it turned 280 00:14:00,476 --> 00:14:04,116 Speaker 2: out different. Absolutely, you know, yeah, does. 281 00:14:03,956 --> 00:14:06,556 Speaker 1: He understand what you're doing now? 282 00:14:06,836 --> 00:14:10,156 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, you know the first the first time he 283 00:14:10,236 --> 00:14:12,516 Speaker 2: really got it. Well, he got it when I went. 284 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:14,876 Speaker 2: When I got into Berkeley, he was kind of he 285 00:14:14,956 --> 00:14:18,196 Speaker 2: was shocked. I was shocked. My whole family was shocked. 286 00:14:19,476 --> 00:14:22,396 Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it too, so much so that I 287 00:14:22,396 --> 00:14:25,956 Speaker 2: remember I drove up. I drove up, I wrote the counselor. 288 00:14:26,076 --> 00:14:27,956 Speaker 2: I was like, listen, like, I got some I gotta 289 00:14:28,076 --> 00:14:29,236 Speaker 2: I gotta talk to you. I didn't want to do 290 00:14:29,276 --> 00:14:31,276 Speaker 2: it over email, didn't want to do it over phone. 291 00:14:31,476 --> 00:14:32,836 Speaker 2: Like I needed to look this lady in the eyes. 292 00:14:32,836 --> 00:14:33,836 Speaker 2: So I was like, hey, can I meet you? And 293 00:14:33,876 --> 00:14:35,476 Speaker 2: she's like, yes, sure, sure to come down this date 294 00:14:35,556 --> 00:14:39,076 Speaker 2: this time drove up to Berkeley and yes I was. 295 00:14:39,236 --> 00:14:41,316 Speaker 2: I was like, look, I got this deferred a mission. 296 00:14:42,356 --> 00:14:46,196 Speaker 2: This is real. Yeah, this is real, justin, justin. 297 00:14:47,036 --> 00:14:49,196 Speaker 1: You're living in Orange County at the time. 298 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:53,596 Speaker 2: I'm living in La in La. You drove six hours yeah, 299 00:14:53,636 --> 00:14:55,876 Speaker 2: to Berkeley, yeah, six seven eight. 300 00:14:55,916 --> 00:14:59,516 Speaker 1: To ask official of Berkeley whether your acceptance that it 301 00:14:59,636 --> 00:14:59,996 Speaker 1: was real. 302 00:15:00,436 --> 00:15:03,076 Speaker 2: I came that far. I wasn't gonna lie. And then 303 00:15:03,156 --> 00:15:04,956 Speaker 2: also like try to figure out how to run a 304 00:15:04,996 --> 00:15:06,956 Speaker 2: place up there and pay a mission just to not 305 00:15:07,236 --> 00:15:09,996 Speaker 2: so I drove up there, and you know, so, I'm 306 00:15:10,796 --> 00:15:12,516 Speaker 2: is this real? And she goes, yes, this is real? 307 00:15:12,556 --> 00:15:16,196 Speaker 2: So I go, so I could start January fifteen, Yes, 308 00:15:16,236 --> 00:15:20,396 Speaker 2: you can as a philosophy major. Yes, okay, and I 309 00:15:20,396 --> 00:15:25,076 Speaker 2: can switch my major if I want once I get in, yes, right, 310 00:15:25,476 --> 00:15:27,276 Speaker 2: you know. And then and then and I'm kind of 311 00:15:27,316 --> 00:15:29,836 Speaker 2: trying to work up to also like so, and I asked, 312 00:15:29,876 --> 00:15:32,796 Speaker 2: I said, listen, I'm gonna be honest with you, Okay, 313 00:15:33,476 --> 00:15:36,236 Speaker 2: Like I don't have a high school diploma, I don't 314 00:15:36,236 --> 00:15:40,516 Speaker 2: have a GED, I don't have an equivalency, so you 315 00:15:40,516 --> 00:15:42,236 Speaker 2: should like so based on that now you said already 316 00:15:42,236 --> 00:15:43,676 Speaker 2: said this was real, but based on now, with this 317 00:15:43,836 --> 00:15:47,156 Speaker 2: new information, based on that, is this really? Is? Can 318 00:15:47,196 --> 00:15:47,916 Speaker 2: I really come here? 319 00:15:47,956 --> 00:15:50,996 Speaker 1: We skipped a step. The step we skipped was you 320 00:15:50,996 --> 00:15:52,516 Speaker 1: didn't graduate from high school? 321 00:15:52,796 --> 00:15:53,836 Speaker 2: Na I left at fourteen? 322 00:15:54,516 --> 00:15:55,276 Speaker 1: At fourteen? 323 00:15:55,356 --> 00:15:56,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I left at fourteen. 324 00:15:57,036 --> 00:15:59,716 Speaker 1: I also didn't graduate from high school, but that's because 325 00:15:59,716 --> 00:16:02,756 Speaker 1: my mom called the principal and said, Malcolm won't be 326 00:16:02,796 --> 00:16:05,876 Speaker 1: coming in. He's more productive at home. That was it. 327 00:16:05,996 --> 00:16:08,676 Speaker 1: So everyone was like, okay, fine, like that's you know, 328 00:16:08,676 --> 00:16:10,436 Speaker 1: that's a very that's the world I grew up, and 329 00:16:10,476 --> 00:16:15,116 Speaker 1: it was forgiving, understanding, do what you want kind of world. Wait, 330 00:16:15,196 --> 00:16:16,996 Speaker 1: you left high school at fourteen to do what? 331 00:16:19,956 --> 00:16:25,996 Speaker 2: Yeah? Nothing good? Yeah, nothing good. I would say I 332 00:16:26,036 --> 00:16:27,836 Speaker 2: was pretty beat down by that point, you know, like 333 00:16:27,916 --> 00:16:31,756 Speaker 2: confidence wise, I didn't know what I was doing. So yeah, 334 00:16:31,756 --> 00:16:37,476 Speaker 2: I left and I was I was just doing my 335 00:16:37,516 --> 00:16:37,956 Speaker 2: own thing. 336 00:16:38,596 --> 00:16:40,236 Speaker 1: What's your mom doing when you're doing this? 337 00:16:40,356 --> 00:16:42,876 Speaker 2: So here's what happened. Was so like basically my freshman 338 00:16:42,916 --> 00:16:45,556 Speaker 2: year high school, I was so rock binding with my confidence, 339 00:16:45,596 --> 00:16:48,316 Speaker 2: Like I had basically like a zero point something GPA, 340 00:16:48,516 --> 00:16:50,596 Speaker 2: like I had like no GPAs. It was literally zero 341 00:16:50,636 --> 00:16:53,756 Speaker 2: point something. And the only the highest grade I got 342 00:16:54,276 --> 00:16:56,236 Speaker 2: was I thought it was a C, but it turns 343 00:16:56,276 --> 00:16:58,916 Speaker 2: out it was a D. I got a D in journalism. Yeah, 344 00:16:58,956 --> 00:17:00,956 Speaker 2: and the teacher pulled me aside. He's like, justin, you're 345 00:17:00,996 --> 00:17:03,236 Speaker 2: too smart to fail. You deserve an F I'm not 346 00:17:03,236 --> 00:17:04,436 Speaker 2: gonna give you a F. I'm gonna give you a D. 347 00:17:04,516 --> 00:17:06,076 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, thank you, mister Muller. But it 348 00:17:06,116 --> 00:17:07,396 Speaker 2: was like a zero point something. So they said you're 349 00:17:07,396 --> 00:17:09,996 Speaker 2: gonna have to go to continuation school, which was just 350 00:17:10,036 --> 00:17:12,596 Speaker 2: like a school, like, you know, for for fuck ups. 351 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:15,476 Speaker 2: And my mom was like, you're not a fuck up, 352 00:17:15,516 --> 00:17:18,556 Speaker 2: so you're not gonna You're not gonna go there. I go, okay. 353 00:17:19,636 --> 00:17:22,076 Speaker 2: She's like, I almost have you stay home, and uh, 354 00:17:23,956 --> 00:17:25,596 Speaker 2: this it sounds crazy, but I got to give her 355 00:17:25,636 --> 00:17:27,476 Speaker 2: credit because it didn't work for a bit, but then 356 00:17:27,516 --> 00:17:29,876 Speaker 2: it really worked. She's like, I'm just going to stay home. 357 00:17:29,916 --> 00:17:32,036 Speaker 2: You're gonna read the paper every day while am at work. 358 00:17:32,596 --> 00:17:34,476 Speaker 2: I'm gonna come home. You're gonna have a little report 359 00:17:35,036 --> 00:17:39,316 Speaker 2: on a couple of items you read. And of course, 360 00:17:39,636 --> 00:17:43,476 Speaker 2: you know, for the longest, like I just took advantage. 361 00:17:43,516 --> 00:17:45,156 Speaker 2: I didn't do it, you know, like I just didn't. 362 00:17:45,236 --> 00:17:47,796 Speaker 2: She didn't want me being with fuck ups because she did. 363 00:17:48,196 --> 00:17:50,196 Speaker 2: She already could see I think that my confidence was 364 00:17:50,436 --> 00:17:52,436 Speaker 2: shot and that was just gonna be worse, so she 365 00:17:52,516 --> 00:17:55,476 Speaker 2: pulled me out. I took advantage of it. I didn't 366 00:17:55,476 --> 00:18:03,516 Speaker 2: do much until I was like almost sixteen. Common story, 367 00:18:03,556 --> 00:18:05,516 Speaker 2: I feel like for a lot of people. I got 368 00:18:05,516 --> 00:18:08,796 Speaker 2: a copy of the autobiography of Malcolm X and it 369 00:18:08,876 --> 00:18:15,596 Speaker 2: really reignited my ambition. So then at that point, I'm 370 00:18:15,636 --> 00:18:17,716 Speaker 2: roll in community college because I didn't really want to 371 00:18:17,756 --> 00:18:20,836 Speaker 2: deal with like trying to start over from my freshman 372 00:18:20,916 --> 00:18:23,676 Speaker 2: year of high school. So I rolled in community college 373 00:18:23,716 --> 00:18:25,516 Speaker 2: and just did that for about four or five years, 374 00:18:25,556 --> 00:18:27,796 Speaker 2: and so I could transfer. I transfer. So I started 375 00:18:27,836 --> 00:18:30,116 Speaker 2: that at like just before I turned sixteen, and I 376 00:18:30,156 --> 00:18:31,876 Speaker 2: transferred to Berkeley at twenty one. 377 00:18:32,556 --> 00:18:37,996 Speaker 1: Let me see, we'll get back to Berkeley and how 378 00:18:38,076 --> 00:18:50,356 Speaker 1: things turned around for Justin in a moment. Back to 379 00:18:50,396 --> 00:18:54,236 Speaker 1: my conversation with Justin Richmond at the Edison O. Jackson 380 00:18:54,396 --> 00:18:59,196 Speaker 1: Auditorium at Medgar Evers College. Justin was finding his place 381 00:18:59,276 --> 00:19:04,956 Speaker 1: at Berkeley. So you have a kind of loss of 382 00:19:05,036 --> 00:19:10,756 Speaker 1: confidence and do you get it back in Burke at Berkeley. 383 00:19:10,956 --> 00:19:14,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. Gabrielle Williams right here. I met 384 00:19:15,036 --> 00:19:18,356 Speaker 2: Gabrielle at Berkeley. She was doing her PhD. We met 385 00:19:18,356 --> 00:19:20,356 Speaker 2: at the Black Student Lounge or it was the the 386 00:19:21,596 --> 00:19:24,156 Speaker 2: that was like her her student job thing, and she 387 00:19:24,236 --> 00:19:26,636 Speaker 2: was listening to music and I heard, so we connected 388 00:19:26,876 --> 00:19:29,436 Speaker 2: and there was a professor there by the name of 389 00:19:29,476 --> 00:19:33,556 Speaker 2: Ricky Vincent. He was like the pre eminent funk music 390 00:19:33,596 --> 00:19:36,636 Speaker 2: scholar and was writing a book on the Black Panthers, 391 00:19:37,036 --> 00:19:39,236 Speaker 2: and I had a strong interest in the Panthers. So 392 00:19:39,596 --> 00:19:42,876 Speaker 2: like between like Gabrielle and Ricky Vincent and all these 393 00:19:43,356 --> 00:19:45,916 Speaker 2: other black folk that looked like me that I could 394 00:19:45,956 --> 00:19:49,516 Speaker 2: relate to. And for Gabrielle coming from from La southern California, 395 00:19:49,556 --> 00:19:53,076 Speaker 2: like there was just a lot in common. It definitely 396 00:19:53,076 --> 00:19:55,396 Speaker 2: a hundred percent helped me. But but she also helped 397 00:19:55,436 --> 00:19:58,676 Speaker 2: me through a lot because there's many times I've called Gabrielle, 398 00:19:59,596 --> 00:20:02,516 Speaker 2: including when I took this job at Pushkin, like I 399 00:20:02,676 --> 00:20:05,716 Speaker 2: really do this, this is a smart move and shout 400 00:20:05,756 --> 00:20:07,916 Speaker 2: out to talk. You know, when I got into grad school, Man, 401 00:20:07,956 --> 00:20:09,916 Speaker 2: should I really take out these loans, Gabrielle, I don't know. 402 00:20:09,916 --> 00:20:11,356 Speaker 2: It's a lot of money, Like I don't want to 403 00:20:11,356 --> 00:20:14,356 Speaker 2: be in debt, and Gabria was like, justin, just come on, 404 00:20:14,436 --> 00:20:15,956 Speaker 2: is what you're supposed to do. You're going to school, 405 00:20:15,956 --> 00:20:17,516 Speaker 2: you got to pay you unless you can afford it, 406 00:20:17,596 --> 00:20:20,676 Speaker 2: take the loan out and go. So yeah, I definitely 407 00:20:20,716 --> 00:20:22,516 Speaker 2: got a ton of confidence right there, not that I'm 408 00:20:22,636 --> 00:20:25,156 Speaker 2: you know, and then slowly along the way ebbed and 409 00:20:25,236 --> 00:20:28,676 Speaker 2: flow like as new situations arose, and I sort of 410 00:20:28,676 --> 00:20:31,676 Speaker 2: fell into journalism because I couldn't really, I couldn't get 411 00:20:31,716 --> 00:20:34,196 Speaker 2: a job after college, and I knew I kind of 412 00:20:34,196 --> 00:20:36,196 Speaker 2: went in wanting to be a professor by the time 413 00:20:36,196 --> 00:20:37,716 Speaker 2: I got to Brookley's like, I kind of want to 414 00:20:37,716 --> 00:20:40,996 Speaker 2: do my bachelor's, get a PhD, then teach. But then 415 00:20:41,036 --> 00:20:43,876 Speaker 2: I sort of fell out of love with with higher 416 00:20:43,996 --> 00:20:51,476 Speaker 2: education just because of the bureaucracy element. Sorry, wonderful to 417 00:20:51,516 --> 00:20:55,716 Speaker 2: have us here. But I would talk to Gabrielle, I 418 00:20:55,716 --> 00:20:58,276 Speaker 2: would talk to my guy Ricky Vincent and sort of 419 00:20:58,316 --> 00:21:00,156 Speaker 2: be like, well, what is it that I like to 420 00:21:00,196 --> 00:21:02,476 Speaker 2: do well? I like the idea of writing and connecting 421 00:21:02,476 --> 00:21:04,596 Speaker 2: with people, communicating people. I like the idea of researching. 422 00:21:05,316 --> 00:21:08,116 Speaker 2: And so that's when like the idea struck to do journalism. 423 00:21:08,116 --> 00:21:11,716 Speaker 2: I started get involved with RAO around town KPFA, which 424 00:21:11,756 --> 00:21:15,316 Speaker 2: was the PACIFICA station in Berkeley, the campus station. I 425 00:21:15,316 --> 00:21:18,196 Speaker 2: took a journalism class, so I kind of and it 426 00:21:18,356 --> 00:21:20,676 Speaker 2: just snowball from there where I fell into journalism. But 427 00:21:20,716 --> 00:21:22,996 Speaker 2: by the time I like I get a job. I'm 428 00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:27,956 Speaker 2: twenty five, I'm at NPR and my girlfriend got pregnant, 429 00:21:27,996 --> 00:21:31,036 Speaker 2: who's now my beautiful wife, Danielle. We have two beautiful kids, 430 00:21:31,116 --> 00:21:33,796 Speaker 2: Crin and Ella. And I was making like thirty thousand 431 00:21:33,876 --> 00:21:36,836 Speaker 2: dollars a year in PR, paying back loans and bout 432 00:21:36,876 --> 00:21:39,716 Speaker 2: to have a kid. My confidence, I say, at that 433 00:21:39,756 --> 00:21:46,796 Speaker 2: point sinks back to all time low. And I have 434 00:21:46,876 --> 00:21:49,476 Speaker 2: a friend named Drew who took me to Cuba. It 435 00:21:49,596 --> 00:21:51,196 Speaker 2: was just like, I sense you're kind of going through it. 436 00:21:51,276 --> 00:21:52,516 Speaker 2: Let me, let me take you to Cuba. This is 437 00:21:52,516 --> 00:21:54,716 Speaker 2: when Cuba opened up. I was like, I can't really forties, 438 00:21:54,756 --> 00:21:56,236 Speaker 2: like I'm gonna pay for it. You sent me back whenever. 439 00:21:56,316 --> 00:21:59,076 Speaker 2: So me and Drew went down And this is the 440 00:21:59,076 --> 00:22:01,356 Speaker 2: most random incident in my life. This is the most 441 00:22:01,396 --> 00:22:02,876 Speaker 2: random thing that ever happened in my life. Is We're 442 00:22:02,916 --> 00:22:06,316 Speaker 2: in Cuba and Havana. I've driven to Mexico twice, but 443 00:22:06,396 --> 00:22:10,116 Speaker 2: other than that, I've never left the country. And uh, 444 00:22:10,236 --> 00:22:16,516 Speaker 2: I run into Quincy Jones in Havana and Quincy Jones like, 445 00:22:16,556 --> 00:22:19,556 Speaker 2: I'm like, damn, that's Quincy Jones. I want to I go, hey, Quincy, 446 00:22:19,596 --> 00:22:21,876 Speaker 2: can can I get a picture? And he goes yeah, 447 00:22:22,476 --> 00:22:23,756 Speaker 2: and he doesn't get up. So I was like, okay, 448 00:22:23,756 --> 00:22:25,636 Speaker 2: I'm gonna sit down and take a picture of Quincy. 449 00:22:26,076 --> 00:22:28,916 Speaker 2: And he started asking me, what's your sign? I go Leah, 450 00:22:29,116 --> 00:22:32,316 Speaker 2: I go leo. He goes on leo rising cool. I 451 00:22:32,356 --> 00:22:35,716 Speaker 2: don't know what that means. He just starts talking to 452 00:22:35,716 --> 00:22:37,756 Speaker 2: me and we have like a three hour conversation. We 453 00:22:37,796 --> 00:22:38,276 Speaker 2: have dinner. 454 00:22:39,076 --> 00:22:41,116 Speaker 1: He never told me because you and I met Quincy 455 00:22:41,956 --> 00:22:42,796 Speaker 1: like five years ago. 456 00:22:42,836 --> 00:22:44,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a full circle moment for me because 457 00:22:44,356 --> 00:22:46,796 Speaker 2: we ended up going to Quincy's house. But I had 458 00:22:46,836 --> 00:22:48,676 Speaker 2: like a three hour dinner with Quincy Jones in Havana. 459 00:22:49,116 --> 00:22:51,556 Speaker 2: At my lowest point, I'm making like no money, I'm broke. 460 00:22:51,836 --> 00:22:53,476 Speaker 2: My wife was looking at me crazy because it's like, 461 00:22:53,516 --> 00:22:56,116 Speaker 2: why are you in Cuba running around like she didn't 462 00:22:56,156 --> 00:22:58,276 Speaker 2: know if I was maybe not gonna come back or what. 463 00:23:00,356 --> 00:23:02,956 Speaker 2: But I met Quincy and from that he was like, oh, 464 00:23:03,036 --> 00:23:04,756 Speaker 2: you're you're a cool brother. Man gave me his gave 465 00:23:04,796 --> 00:23:09,676 Speaker 2: me his card, and normally I wouldn't have, but I 466 00:23:09,676 --> 00:23:12,796 Speaker 2: felt I was like, okay, this man discovered Oprah Winfrey, 467 00:23:12,836 --> 00:23:15,956 Speaker 2: Will Smith, Ray Charles, So I was like, you know 468 00:23:15,996 --> 00:23:17,396 Speaker 2: what am I going to do, not reach out, not 469 00:23:17,436 --> 00:23:20,476 Speaker 2: reach so I could use all the help I could get. 470 00:23:21,116 --> 00:23:24,236 Speaker 2: So I reached out to Quincy and it was like, look, 471 00:23:24,276 --> 00:23:26,556 Speaker 2: look Quincy. Like I realized I didn't want to reach 472 00:23:26,596 --> 00:23:28,516 Speaker 2: out with nothing. So me and my friend Sinari Glinton, 473 00:23:28,716 --> 00:23:31,036 Speaker 2: one of the few black men at MPR that sort 474 00:23:31,036 --> 00:23:33,316 Speaker 2: of took interesting me right away, sort of noticed when 475 00:23:33,316 --> 00:23:36,396 Speaker 2: I was there that I needed I needed his his guidance. 476 00:23:36,796 --> 00:23:38,956 Speaker 2: We decided I shouldn't just go to him with nothing 477 00:23:38,956 --> 00:23:41,516 Speaker 2: to offer. So I was like, look, I'm a journalist, 478 00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:43,636 Speaker 2: I working on a PR, working audio everyone. You know, 479 00:23:43,956 --> 00:23:46,836 Speaker 2: it's twenty sixteen. Podcasting is sort of new, but people 480 00:23:46,836 --> 00:23:51,076 Speaker 2: are starting to have them. You've done everything from you know, 481 00:23:51,156 --> 00:23:53,876 Speaker 2: everything across media that you could possibly do except for podcasting, 482 00:23:53,916 --> 00:23:56,836 Speaker 2: Like we can make you a podcast. And it was 483 00:23:56,876 --> 00:23:59,396 Speaker 2: like great, So you know, it wasn't that easy, but 484 00:23:59,396 --> 00:24:00,876 Speaker 2: it was a couple of meetings, finally got into a 485 00:24:00,916 --> 00:24:04,116 Speaker 2: great got to sign some paperwork. I still have it framed. 486 00:24:04,116 --> 00:24:05,836 Speaker 2: It's like me and Quincy Jones signature, which is the 487 00:24:05,876 --> 00:24:08,436 Speaker 2: craziest thing in the world to me. But what happened 488 00:24:08,556 --> 00:24:11,076 Speaker 2: was I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't sell the thing 489 00:24:11,596 --> 00:24:13,596 Speaker 2: I realized I didn't know the first thing about business. 490 00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:15,356 Speaker 2: I've been flying blind my whole life, just trying to 491 00:24:15,356 --> 00:24:17,276 Speaker 2: figure things out and taking out loans. I don't know 492 00:24:17,316 --> 00:24:20,116 Speaker 2: what I'm doing. And that's one thing I did for 493 00:24:20,156 --> 00:24:24,116 Speaker 2: this show. Occurred to me. It's like, if I could 494 00:24:24,156 --> 00:24:26,676 Speaker 2: just talk to if I could talk to someone else, 495 00:24:26,676 --> 00:24:30,876 Speaker 2: some other black man who has like money, Magic Johnson 496 00:24:30,956 --> 00:24:33,436 Speaker 2: Byron Allen, who at that times about the Weather Channel. 497 00:24:33,756 --> 00:24:35,636 Speaker 2: I was like, I bet they could tell me what 498 00:24:35,676 --> 00:24:37,276 Speaker 2: to do because I was in these rooms just like 499 00:24:37,556 --> 00:24:40,036 Speaker 2: realizing like I don't understand this jargon, I don't understand 500 00:24:40,036 --> 00:24:44,836 Speaker 2: the speak, and I'm failing, you know. And so it 501 00:24:44,956 --> 00:24:48,036 Speaker 2: really occurred to me at that moment, how important having 502 00:24:48,876 --> 00:24:53,636 Speaker 2: people who look like you, who you can point to 503 00:24:53,796 --> 00:24:55,436 Speaker 2: in your life, you can point to a successful at 504 00:24:55,436 --> 00:24:59,756 Speaker 2: this particular thing. How that can really be. It's not 505 00:24:59,836 --> 00:25:01,876 Speaker 2: the only way to figure things out, but it's, man, 506 00:25:01,956 --> 00:25:03,796 Speaker 2: it makes things so much easier. You know. 507 00:25:04,316 --> 00:25:08,396 Speaker 1: Let's go back a moment and say, what's the version 508 00:25:08,476 --> 00:25:11,836 Speaker 1: of your life where you wouldn't have suffered that kind 509 00:25:11,916 --> 00:25:14,396 Speaker 1: of crisis of confidence. 510 00:25:16,076 --> 00:25:17,196 Speaker 2: I can't imagine. 511 00:25:17,876 --> 00:25:19,636 Speaker 1: Give me a version, Give me a version where it's 512 00:25:19,796 --> 00:25:26,836 Speaker 1: where it's easy in the United States. 513 00:25:28,236 --> 00:25:29,676 Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't think. I don't think you 514 00:25:29,676 --> 00:25:31,676 Speaker 2: can have it easy being born black in the United States. 515 00:25:31,716 --> 00:25:34,996 Speaker 2: I don't think it's I don't think it's possible. I 516 00:25:35,036 --> 00:25:38,796 Speaker 2: would say best case scenario is, you know, like a 517 00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:41,236 Speaker 2: Carlton type or something from Fresh Prince or something. You know, 518 00:25:41,316 --> 00:25:43,916 Speaker 2: we're like, Okay, you succept but like, are you really 519 00:25:44,436 --> 00:25:46,556 Speaker 2: how successful are if you're not acknowledging the whole part 520 00:25:46,596 --> 00:25:48,556 Speaker 2: of yourself. So it's hard for me to answer, but 521 00:25:48,956 --> 00:25:52,876 Speaker 2: I guess in a scenario where there is no And 522 00:25:52,916 --> 00:25:54,636 Speaker 2: this is interesting because I'm also thinking about this from 523 00:25:54,676 --> 00:25:57,356 Speaker 2: my kids now, like they're getting a much different life 524 00:25:57,396 --> 00:26:00,996 Speaker 2: than I had, access to different kinds of people and 525 00:26:01,276 --> 00:26:05,276 Speaker 2: education and two parents who are supportive of each other 526 00:26:05,636 --> 00:26:10,036 Speaker 2: and supportive of them together. Uh so I think. But but 527 00:26:09,996 --> 00:26:11,636 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess, like for me, it's hard for 528 00:26:11,676 --> 00:26:13,516 Speaker 2: it really is hard for me to imagine. But but 529 00:26:13,636 --> 00:26:15,716 Speaker 2: maybe I guess the best case. You know, It's funny 530 00:26:15,756 --> 00:26:17,116 Speaker 2: I used to I used to dream that I was 531 00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:19,396 Speaker 2: like a as a kid, that like like I was 532 00:26:19,396 --> 00:26:21,356 Speaker 2: like a Huxtable, you know, which is maybe a little 533 00:26:21,396 --> 00:26:23,836 Speaker 2: controversial now but like, maybe that would have been a 534 00:26:23,836 --> 00:26:26,356 Speaker 2: best case scenario. You know, Dad was a doctor, Mom 535 00:26:26,516 --> 00:26:28,916 Speaker 2: was you know whatever, in a Brownstone, and. 536 00:26:30,516 --> 00:26:33,316 Speaker 1: Give me the worst case scenario so you don't get 537 00:26:33,316 --> 00:26:37,236 Speaker 1: into Berkeley. What happens is that the key moment. 538 00:26:38,036 --> 00:26:42,356 Speaker 2: Not probably getting probably getting the Malcolm X autobiography, because 539 00:26:42,396 --> 00:26:44,356 Speaker 2: that was I was in a pretty bad spot there. 540 00:26:44,996 --> 00:26:48,676 Speaker 2: But I'll say before I came to Pushkin, I almost 541 00:26:48,716 --> 00:26:54,836 Speaker 2: gave up again, like when you don't have examples of 542 00:26:54,876 --> 00:26:57,236 Speaker 2: success around you and you don't have people who can 543 00:26:57,356 --> 00:27:00,356 Speaker 2: teach you about money and how to not even like 544 00:27:00,396 --> 00:27:02,876 Speaker 2: in a gross like uber capitalist way, but just like 545 00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:05,356 Speaker 2: how to accumulate it so that you can't have the 546 00:27:05,396 --> 00:27:07,916 Speaker 2: things you want and need in life. Like I didn't 547 00:27:07,956 --> 00:27:11,116 Speaker 2: have that. So I almost journalism, even though you know 548 00:27:11,116 --> 00:27:12,556 Speaker 2: I love it and I wanted to be in it, 549 00:27:12,636 --> 00:27:14,716 Speaker 2: almost left it. I had a job offer with ADP, 550 00:27:15,476 --> 00:27:19,596 Speaker 2: the UH Payroad Processing, to do outdoor sales with ADP, 551 00:27:20,476 --> 00:27:22,356 Speaker 2: because I was like, well, I'll just go do sales, 552 00:27:22,396 --> 00:27:25,276 Speaker 2: you know, like I'll just I'll make some money doing sales. 553 00:27:25,316 --> 00:27:28,196 Speaker 2: And I almost took that offer, you know, And that 554 00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:32,476 Speaker 2: was maybe six months before before I got an email 555 00:27:32,516 --> 00:27:35,396 Speaker 2: from from you from me, LaBelle and from you to 556 00:27:35,436 --> 00:27:37,516 Speaker 2: come up for Pushkin, which which I would say changed 557 00:27:38,196 --> 00:27:41,596 Speaker 2: again my trajectory thanks to you, Jacob Weisberg, you know 558 00:27:41,716 --> 00:27:46,836 Speaker 2: me and LaBelle. Yeah, man, because because it was also 559 00:27:46,836 --> 00:27:48,476 Speaker 2: bleaked in a little bit, you know, it was also 560 00:27:48,516 --> 00:27:48,956 Speaker 2: it was tough. 561 00:27:48,996 --> 00:27:55,396 Speaker 1: Then, man, we'll take a quick break and get back 562 00:27:55,436 --> 00:28:11,036 Speaker 1: to Justin's story. We're back with Justin Richmond in making 563 00:28:11,116 --> 00:28:14,796 Speaker 1: sense of people's life stories and trying to figure out 564 00:28:14,836 --> 00:28:18,556 Speaker 1: what's the difference between in America between a black life 565 00:28:18,556 --> 00:28:22,156 Speaker 1: story and a white life story. One of the things, 566 00:28:22,396 --> 00:28:26,316 Speaker 1: and it's very, very difficult to convince persuade white people 567 00:28:26,316 --> 00:28:29,396 Speaker 1: of this fact is it's how many strikes you get, 568 00:28:30,636 --> 00:28:33,196 Speaker 1: or how many chances you get. If you are a 569 00:28:33,436 --> 00:28:37,236 Speaker 1: upper middle class, well educated white person, you get like 570 00:28:37,676 --> 00:28:41,556 Speaker 1: ten chances. You can screw up nine times, and the 571 00:28:41,596 --> 00:28:44,116 Speaker 1: system will catch you every time and start you over again. 572 00:28:44,836 --> 00:28:48,196 Speaker 1: And if you're in the same position as a young 573 00:28:48,236 --> 00:28:53,156 Speaker 1: black person, you maybe get two. And I remember this 574 00:28:53,236 --> 00:28:55,476 Speaker 1: is a weird example of this, but there's an incredibly 575 00:28:55,516 --> 00:28:59,716 Speaker 1: interesting book that was written about a suburb of Buffalo, 576 00:28:59,756 --> 00:29:02,516 Speaker 1: a wealthy suburb of Buffalo. I think it's Williamsville. Not 577 00:29:02,556 --> 00:29:05,396 Speaker 1: Sure Amherst. The book I think is called the Safest 578 00:29:05,436 --> 00:29:09,716 Speaker 1: City in America. It was about how there's no juvenile 579 00:29:09,756 --> 00:29:14,996 Speaker 1: delinquency and Williamsville. And the reason is not that there's 580 00:29:15,036 --> 00:29:18,796 Speaker 1: no misbehavior among juveniles. It's that they just call us 581 00:29:18,836 --> 00:29:24,116 Speaker 1: something different. Right, it's high jinks, it's sewing, no wild oats, 582 00:29:24,316 --> 00:29:26,996 Speaker 1: it's it's oh so and so it just has to 583 00:29:27,076 --> 00:29:30,516 Speaker 1: learn to be. It's everything is getting. Everyone gets so 584 00:29:30,556 --> 00:29:33,876 Speaker 1: many different chances that no one ever looks never comes 585 00:29:33,916 --> 00:29:38,676 Speaker 1: to the definition of juvenile delinquency. And like that that thing, 586 00:29:39,596 --> 00:29:42,476 Speaker 1: this question of how many chances you get? Is it 587 00:29:42,636 --> 00:29:45,596 Speaker 1: sounds listening to your story that you are very close 588 00:29:45,636 --> 00:29:46,716 Speaker 1: to running out of chances. 589 00:29:48,076 --> 00:29:50,396 Speaker 2: It's even like more than that. It's just it's like 590 00:29:50,436 --> 00:29:52,316 Speaker 2: I didn't even know that I had chances, you know, 591 00:29:52,436 --> 00:29:54,356 Speaker 2: and maybe I didn't. I never knew I had chances. 592 00:29:54,396 --> 00:29:56,796 Speaker 2: You know. There's a point where, you know, I guess 593 00:29:56,836 --> 00:30:00,716 Speaker 2: in your example, the difference would be in those instances 594 00:30:00,796 --> 00:30:04,356 Speaker 2: those kids in Buffalo, they're thought to be behaving badly, 595 00:30:04,956 --> 00:30:08,436 Speaker 2: whereas when you're a black kid misbehaving, you're bad. You 596 00:30:08,476 --> 00:30:09,116 Speaker 2: know you yourself. 597 00:30:09,436 --> 00:30:11,756 Speaker 1: Oh, it's absolutely define differently, you're. 598 00:30:11,676 --> 00:30:15,036 Speaker 2: A terrible person. You can't you can't succeed, you can't 599 00:30:15,076 --> 00:30:18,956 Speaker 2: do None of this is for you, you know. Yeah, 600 00:30:19,036 --> 00:30:21,996 Speaker 2: and so that's where I was at, which is a 601 00:30:21,996 --> 00:30:22,916 Speaker 2: pretty bleak place. 602 00:30:23,196 --> 00:30:27,476 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, my speaking of father, So my father who 603 00:30:28,156 --> 00:30:30,236 Speaker 1: passed away a couple years ago, but actually today, weirdly 604 00:30:30,316 --> 00:30:33,636 Speaker 1: is his birthday. My mom always says to my dad 605 00:30:33,676 --> 00:30:37,956 Speaker 1: that that his motto was nothing bad will ever happen, 606 00:30:38,436 --> 00:30:41,676 Speaker 1: which I've thought about a lot. Partly that's the function 607 00:30:41,756 --> 00:30:45,996 Speaker 1: of his personality. Had this kind of unstoppable, unthoughtful personality. 608 00:30:46,276 --> 00:30:51,436 Speaker 1: But he was also a came from a stable English family. 609 00:30:51,476 --> 00:30:55,116 Speaker 1: He was well educated, he was very intelligent. The system 610 00:30:55,436 --> 00:30:59,676 Speaker 1: always worked for my dad. He was a nice person, 611 00:30:59,796 --> 00:31:01,716 Speaker 1: he was depending on he was charming, he was people 612 00:31:01,836 --> 00:31:05,596 Speaker 1: liked him. So it made sense that his theory of 613 00:31:05,636 --> 00:31:07,956 Speaker 1: life was nothing bad will ever happen. My mother would 614 00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:09,556 Speaker 1: have made you know, she's a mom. She would imagine 615 00:31:09,556 --> 00:31:11,756 Speaker 1: all kinds of horrible and he would just he would 616 00:31:11,756 --> 00:31:14,436 Speaker 1: look at her, uncomprehending me. It was like, no, no, no, no, 617 00:31:15,116 --> 00:31:17,796 Speaker 1: nothing ever bad's gonna happen, right, And it was essentially 618 00:31:17,956 --> 00:31:21,956 Speaker 1: true of like that message, I was just thinking as 619 00:31:21,956 --> 00:31:26,276 Speaker 1: you were talking about your dad, the difference in messages 620 00:31:26,356 --> 00:31:29,036 Speaker 1: sent to the two of us at a young age. 621 00:31:29,556 --> 00:31:32,276 Speaker 1: I have this dad who just thinks it doesn't even 622 00:31:32,276 --> 00:31:34,756 Speaker 1: occur to him that there's ever going to be any 623 00:31:35,436 --> 00:31:39,036 Speaker 1: you know, detour of it's a runway. 624 00:31:39,636 --> 00:31:42,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, man, Yeah, something about opportunity and something about the 625 00:31:42,956 --> 00:31:46,516 Speaker 2: way in which society asks you or demands that you 626 00:31:46,556 --> 00:31:48,756 Speaker 2: think about yourself. You know, it's like sometimes you don't 627 00:31:48,756 --> 00:31:51,036 Speaker 2: get an option and how you want to think about yourself. 628 00:31:52,996 --> 00:31:56,076 Speaker 1: I feel like the one thing that I don't maybe 629 00:31:56,076 --> 00:32:00,636 Speaker 1: it's fine this way, but the transition is still really 630 00:32:01,476 --> 00:32:05,436 Speaker 1: the way that your life kind of turns around. I 631 00:32:05,476 --> 00:32:07,636 Speaker 1: don't eve turns around. It's not like people were living 632 00:32:07,676 --> 00:32:09,996 Speaker 1: a life of crime, but you know what I mean, Like. 633 00:32:10,116 --> 00:32:11,516 Speaker 2: It's not hamminated myself. 634 00:32:13,036 --> 00:32:18,476 Speaker 1: Something happens. It's really kind of interesting and mysterious to you. 635 00:32:18,516 --> 00:32:22,036 Speaker 1: In your twenties, it was a bride. 636 00:32:22,036 --> 00:32:24,796 Speaker 2: It was like, yeah, between it was just building up 637 00:32:24,796 --> 00:32:31,996 Speaker 2: my confidence. I guess between fifteen and now, I'm still trying, 638 00:32:32,076 --> 00:32:35,116 Speaker 2: you know, like from that time I did drop out 639 00:32:35,156 --> 00:32:37,276 Speaker 2: of high school to like just getting through college, Like 640 00:32:37,836 --> 00:32:40,356 Speaker 2: what motivated me was a sense of failure I was like, man, 641 00:32:40,396 --> 00:32:41,876 Speaker 2: if I don't get a high school, if I don't 642 00:32:41,876 --> 00:32:44,836 Speaker 2: get a college diploma, like what I have an eighth 643 00:32:44,876 --> 00:32:46,996 Speaker 2: grade certificate? Like what is that going to do for me? 644 00:32:47,036 --> 00:32:48,676 Speaker 2: You know? So that was kind of like this real 645 00:32:48,876 --> 00:32:51,796 Speaker 2: like it wasn't like a carrot type of motivation, was 646 00:32:51,876 --> 00:32:55,436 Speaker 2: like you know, and and then I was like, well 647 00:32:55,436 --> 00:32:56,956 Speaker 2: then I couldn't get a job. And then I went 648 00:32:57,156 --> 00:33:01,036 Speaker 2: started interning and I got into grad school, and then 649 00:33:01,076 --> 00:33:02,876 Speaker 2: that gave me another Okay, now it's grads. When I 650 00:33:02,916 --> 00:33:05,036 Speaker 2: got to figure out grad school is a big scary 651 00:33:05,116 --> 00:33:07,036 Speaker 2: thing and do that, and then I get out of there. 652 00:33:07,036 --> 00:33:09,356 Speaker 2: I get right into this job at MPR and within 653 00:33:09,396 --> 00:33:11,556 Speaker 2: them two months, like my girlfriend's pregnant, you know, and 654 00:33:11,596 --> 00:33:13,276 Speaker 2: it's like now it's like, well, I got to figure 655 00:33:13,316 --> 00:33:15,596 Speaker 2: out how to provide. So like my whole I feel 656 00:33:15,596 --> 00:33:18,396 Speaker 2: like every step of my life up until recently has 657 00:33:18,436 --> 00:33:20,596 Speaker 2: been about how do I just how do I not 658 00:33:21,396 --> 00:33:23,236 Speaker 2: how do I not fail? And that's sort of been 659 00:33:23,276 --> 00:33:25,396 Speaker 2: my motivation to succeed. And I'm trying to figure out 660 00:33:25,396 --> 00:33:28,756 Speaker 2: a way now to be motivated now that that like 661 00:33:28,756 --> 00:33:30,476 Speaker 2: that's why I'm on this journey. They just trying to 662 00:33:30,476 --> 00:33:33,076 Speaker 2: talk to successful people. I've been lucky enough to be. 663 00:33:33,236 --> 00:33:37,836 Speaker 2: You know, first time we met in Santa Monica, I 664 00:33:37,876 --> 00:33:39,036 Speaker 2: was like, day, I can't believe I'm gon go meet 665 00:33:39,036 --> 00:33:42,236 Speaker 2: Malcolm glad Well. That's crazy. And you know, we had 666 00:33:42,236 --> 00:33:44,036 Speaker 2: a very lovely conversation. I just remember, like, I can't 667 00:33:44,036 --> 00:33:46,076 Speaker 2: get out of here without asking like, like, how did 668 00:33:46,076 --> 00:33:49,436 Speaker 2: you get comfortable having money? And I asked you that, 669 00:33:49,556 --> 00:33:51,556 Speaker 2: what did I say? You're like, I just wanted to 670 00:33:51,556 --> 00:33:52,676 Speaker 2: be able to do my own thing. I wanted to 671 00:33:52,716 --> 00:33:54,116 Speaker 2: have my freedom. I wanted to be able to I 672 00:33:54,196 --> 00:33:56,356 Speaker 2: never wanted people to sign things to me or to 673 00:33:56,396 --> 00:33:58,996 Speaker 2: be told what to do, and so and I was like, damn, 674 00:33:59,036 --> 00:34:01,716 Speaker 2: that's a great answer, you know. And but that's why 675 00:34:01,756 --> 00:34:03,796 Speaker 2: that's largely why I'm still, you know, I'm still trying 676 00:34:03,836 --> 00:34:06,196 Speaker 2: to figure out this this this world, in this life 677 00:34:06,236 --> 00:34:09,556 Speaker 2: and navigating different things. So that's why I'm that's why 678 00:34:09,556 --> 00:34:12,596 Speaker 2: I'm doing this and talking to people like Charlemagne the 679 00:34:12,636 --> 00:34:16,476 Speaker 2: God and people like Susie Orman and just different people who, 680 00:34:16,756 --> 00:34:19,876 Speaker 2: you know, against the odds, against all odds, like figured 681 00:34:19,876 --> 00:34:22,356 Speaker 2: this thing out, you know. And my hope is that 682 00:34:22,516 --> 00:34:26,436 Speaker 2: people listening to it it inspires them, not only to 683 00:34:26,676 --> 00:34:30,956 Speaker 2: take big swings, but also to seek out real world, 684 00:34:31,476 --> 00:34:34,676 Speaker 2: real life mentorship, you know, like, obviously I want this 685 00:34:34,756 --> 00:34:37,356 Speaker 2: to be a platform of mentorship for people. So hopefully 686 00:34:37,556 --> 00:34:39,876 Speaker 2: you walk away having learned a lot and feeling boosted. 687 00:34:40,196 --> 00:34:42,716 Speaker 2: But also like I think, you know, you need to 688 00:34:42,716 --> 00:34:44,876 Speaker 2: have real life mentors, and I've been lucky enough to 689 00:34:44,876 --> 00:34:48,916 Speaker 2: have so many, Gabrielle, you, Jacob, all kinds of different people. 690 00:34:49,436 --> 00:34:50,996 Speaker 2: I'm hoping that I try to figure this out, people 691 00:34:50,996 --> 00:34:52,796 Speaker 2: will figure it out alone, alone with me. 692 00:34:53,076 --> 00:34:57,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's toughly well, thank you. Justin we'll let's do 693 00:34:57,316 --> 00:35:00,196 Speaker 1: some audience questions funny and if. 694 00:35:00,076 --> 00:35:04,556 Speaker 2: There are any questions, they could be for me or Malcolm. 695 00:35:05,556 --> 00:35:06,036 Speaker 1: It comes on. 696 00:35:06,236 --> 00:35:07,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. 697 00:35:07,996 --> 00:35:10,636 Speaker 3: My name is Kevin Nesbit, an educator, one of the 698 00:35:10,676 --> 00:35:14,356 Speaker 3: administrators that create the blockages you talked about now. But 699 00:35:14,716 --> 00:35:16,676 Speaker 3: thank you so much for the way you presented this 700 00:35:17,836 --> 00:35:21,916 Speaker 3: good eurodureaucracy, a good VP, as I call myself. I've 701 00:35:21,916 --> 00:35:25,036 Speaker 3: had many friends that come from biracial families, and I 702 00:35:25,076 --> 00:35:27,636 Speaker 3: think as someone that does not come from a biracial family, 703 00:35:27,676 --> 00:35:30,836 Speaker 3: there's always this belief that there's some sort of protection 704 00:35:30,916 --> 00:35:33,676 Speaker 3: that you might receive from your whiteness if you choose 705 00:35:33,716 --> 00:35:35,836 Speaker 3: to adopt it or if you choose to embrace it. 706 00:35:36,076 --> 00:35:37,956 Speaker 3: And because I appreciate the way that you said you 707 00:35:38,036 --> 00:35:40,076 Speaker 3: understood immediately you were a black man and that you 708 00:35:40,116 --> 00:35:43,356 Speaker 3: had no choice, because even if you wanted to imagine something, 709 00:35:43,436 --> 00:35:45,756 Speaker 3: other society told you, know, you're a black man, right, 710 00:35:45,796 --> 00:35:47,676 Speaker 3: And you gave many examples for that. But I have 711 00:35:47,716 --> 00:35:51,516 Speaker 3: other friends that, throughout their journey, they've been able to say, well, 712 00:35:51,756 --> 00:35:53,876 Speaker 3: it's it's not that it's a choice, but it's a 713 00:35:53,876 --> 00:35:56,196 Speaker 3: little messier than that for them because they're both black, 714 00:35:56,236 --> 00:35:57,996 Speaker 3: they're both white, and they grapple. 715 00:35:57,756 --> 00:35:58,556 Speaker 1: With what that means. 716 00:35:58,796 --> 00:36:01,716 Speaker 3: Did you have any moments where you felt that having 717 00:36:01,756 --> 00:36:04,796 Speaker 3: a parent that was white actually enabled some moments of 718 00:36:04,836 --> 00:36:09,116 Speaker 3: protection or other as Malcolm described it, maybe one more choice, right, 719 00:36:09,196 --> 00:36:11,436 Speaker 3: one more set of options. That's my question. 720 00:36:11,676 --> 00:36:13,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, hard for I guess. I don't want to speak 721 00:36:13,796 --> 00:36:16,356 Speaker 2: for other people, but my belief is when I talk 722 00:36:16,476 --> 00:36:19,676 Speaker 2: to when I hear these stories, it's just that there's 723 00:36:19,716 --> 00:36:23,396 Speaker 2: a bit of them deluding themselves. Perhaps you know, I don't, 724 00:36:23,476 --> 00:36:25,476 Speaker 2: but hard to say. I don't want to speak for 725 00:36:25,516 --> 00:36:28,516 Speaker 2: anyone else, but I didn't feel that maybe if i'd 726 00:36:28,556 --> 00:36:30,396 Speaker 2: had a different mom, maybe it would have been different, 727 00:36:30,436 --> 00:36:33,556 Speaker 2: but I was never allowed to think that anything different, 728 00:36:33,636 --> 00:36:34,836 Speaker 2: you know, thank you. 729 00:36:34,996 --> 00:36:38,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's a this is my grand theory of 730 00:36:38,276 --> 00:36:43,636 Speaker 1: biracial marriages. There's a big difference between black father, white mother, 731 00:36:43,756 --> 00:36:45,716 Speaker 1: and white. 732 00:36:45,436 --> 00:36:47,236 Speaker 2: Father, black mother, which would be here. 733 00:36:47,636 --> 00:36:51,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're actually very different kinds the Historically, what a 734 00:36:51,676 --> 00:36:54,596 Speaker 1: biracial marriage was was a white man and a black woman. 735 00:36:55,116 --> 00:36:58,716 Speaker 1: That was the acceptable form for society. Goes back hundreds 736 00:36:58,716 --> 00:37:01,036 Speaker 1: and hundreds of years. That's what it was. It was 737 00:37:01,116 --> 00:37:04,676 Speaker 1: never the reverse, and only really recently have you seen 738 00:37:04,716 --> 00:37:07,716 Speaker 1: black men marry white women. And I think the road 739 00:37:08,036 --> 00:37:11,556 Speaker 1: is a lot harder both for the for the marriage 740 00:37:11,556 --> 00:37:14,236 Speaker 1: and the children. It's a lot harder when your father's 741 00:37:14,276 --> 00:37:15,956 Speaker 1: black and your mom is white. 742 00:37:16,116 --> 00:37:16,316 Speaker 2: Yeah. 743 00:37:16,356 --> 00:37:18,356 Speaker 3: I decided it looks like on the cases I'm thinking 744 00:37:18,396 --> 00:37:21,796 Speaker 3: about my friendships with it was largely what you described 745 00:37:21,836 --> 00:37:24,996 Speaker 3: with the traditional and maybe the household of the fathers, 746 00:37:25,036 --> 00:37:27,476 Speaker 3: whether it's separated or not, later on, there was some 747 00:37:27,516 --> 00:37:30,436 Speaker 3: sort of protection that dad would You'd have another outcome, right, 748 00:37:30,516 --> 00:37:32,156 Speaker 3: you have another choice. So I just wanted to hear 749 00:37:32,156 --> 00:37:32,716 Speaker 3: a bit about that. 750 00:37:33,116 --> 00:37:36,796 Speaker 1: I think society views a black man white woman as 751 00:37:37,076 --> 00:37:40,516 Speaker 1: as being subversive and in a way that they don't 752 00:37:40,596 --> 00:37:42,476 Speaker 1: view the reverses being subversive. 753 00:37:43,876 --> 00:37:45,236 Speaker 2: Thank you, that's true. 754 00:37:46,676 --> 00:37:46,956 Speaker 1: Hello. 755 00:37:47,516 --> 00:37:51,756 Speaker 4: Firstly, thank you Malcolm and Justin you guys are It's 756 00:37:51,796 --> 00:37:53,796 Speaker 4: just been a joy to have you here. And I've 757 00:37:53,916 --> 00:37:58,876 Speaker 4: just enjoyed this whole conversation. I just wanted from you, 758 00:37:58,996 --> 00:38:02,196 Speaker 4: just in like a SoundBite or maybe just like a 759 00:38:02,316 --> 00:38:07,516 Speaker 4: quick statement, like words of advice from one biracial man 760 00:38:07,596 --> 00:38:11,436 Speaker 4: to another biracial man and just how to like navigate 761 00:38:11,836 --> 00:38:14,676 Speaker 4: the professional world and how to just keep your bearings 762 00:38:14,716 --> 00:38:15,876 Speaker 4: and keep yourself grounded. 763 00:38:17,036 --> 00:38:20,156 Speaker 2: Man, I'm not listen to my show because I think 764 00:38:20,156 --> 00:38:21,956 Speaker 2: there's people far greater than me that are going to 765 00:38:21,996 --> 00:38:26,676 Speaker 2: be given advice. But I would say to this point, 766 00:38:27,116 --> 00:38:32,356 Speaker 2: in the instances where I haven't code switched, I've always 767 00:38:32,356 --> 00:38:35,956 Speaker 2: been much more successful. You know. I don't know if 768 00:38:35,956 --> 00:38:38,756 Speaker 2: that's because I've been lucky, but also some of it 769 00:38:38,796 --> 00:38:42,276 Speaker 2: comes down to my like I also think you shouldn't capitulate. 770 00:38:42,356 --> 00:38:45,516 Speaker 2: So also like if someone doesn't want you, like I 771 00:38:45,516 --> 00:38:48,876 Speaker 2: do have imposter syndrome yet and still it's like I 772 00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:51,436 Speaker 2: do somewhere in me have this belief that like I 773 00:38:51,836 --> 00:38:54,316 Speaker 2: can't help but be myself, you know, And I think 774 00:38:54,396 --> 00:38:58,196 Speaker 2: as long as you just are true to yourself, whatever 775 00:38:58,196 --> 00:39:03,356 Speaker 2: that is, however you view yourself, identify yourself, behave like yourself, 776 00:39:03,356 --> 00:39:04,636 Speaker 2: like I think that's all you can do. And I 777 00:39:04,676 --> 00:39:06,876 Speaker 2: think in those instances, like just knowing that you bring 778 00:39:06,916 --> 00:39:08,916 Speaker 2: a lot to the table being you, then you do 779 00:39:09,676 --> 00:39:13,876 Speaker 2: you being someone else. And if you don't, you'll find out, right, like, 780 00:39:14,436 --> 00:39:17,276 Speaker 2: sometimes it doesn't pay to be me certain situations and 781 00:39:18,036 --> 00:39:20,316 Speaker 2: I've you know, I've found out. But okay, then find 782 00:39:20,356 --> 00:39:21,596 Speaker 2: that one's not for me. Let me go to the 783 00:39:21,636 --> 00:39:23,476 Speaker 2: next situation where it is good for me to be there. 784 00:39:23,476 --> 00:39:26,796 Speaker 2: You know, I was at MPR before I was at 785 00:39:26,916 --> 00:39:29,916 Speaker 2: Pushkame with Malcolm, and that was a place that I 786 00:39:29,996 --> 00:39:32,476 Speaker 2: was authentic to myself. But it didn't feel like that 787 00:39:32,636 --> 00:39:36,756 Speaker 2: was It wasn't appreciated. And you know, so I got 788 00:39:36,756 --> 00:39:41,996 Speaker 2: out to go where you're appreciated, and go where you're appreciated. Yeah, yeah, 789 00:39:41,996 --> 00:39:44,316 Speaker 2: thank you, Yeah, more question. 790 00:39:44,516 --> 00:39:49,396 Speaker 5: Oh well, gentlemen, thank you so much. So you both 791 00:39:49,436 --> 00:39:53,916 Speaker 5: made a biracial and I wanted to ask mister godwell, 792 00:39:55,396 --> 00:40:00,476 Speaker 5: justin identifies as black and yourself, I. 793 00:40:00,476 --> 00:40:04,836 Speaker 1: Don't think about it. I think that's the difference between 794 00:40:04,876 --> 00:40:08,076 Speaker 1: having I have a West Indian mom justin as an 795 00:40:08,076 --> 00:40:13,116 Speaker 1: African American father. If you're a West Indian, you don't 796 00:40:13,236 --> 00:40:16,196 Speaker 1: think about race in the same way. It's not this 797 00:40:16,516 --> 00:40:21,116 Speaker 1: omnipresent thing in your life. So I was I just 798 00:40:21,156 --> 00:40:25,196 Speaker 1: think of myself as I don't know when I grew up. 799 00:40:25,236 --> 00:40:27,516 Speaker 1: It was never forced. I mean it's never I was 800 00:40:27,516 --> 00:40:31,796 Speaker 1: never forced to answer that question. My mom thought of 801 00:40:31,796 --> 00:40:35,236 Speaker 1: herself as a Jamaican, not as a white person or 802 00:40:35,276 --> 00:40:38,636 Speaker 1: a black personer. So I don't have a I don't 803 00:40:38,676 --> 00:40:42,996 Speaker 1: have a a kind of easy answer that you had 804 00:40:43,036 --> 00:40:46,676 Speaker 1: a couple layers because Jamaican and then growing up in Canada, 805 00:40:47,116 --> 00:40:52,196 Speaker 1: which I feel like this is probably very different then yes, Canada. Again, 806 00:40:52,316 --> 00:40:57,116 Speaker 1: I never I never got the the the racial experience 807 00:40:57,116 --> 00:40:59,036 Speaker 1: of as all of you and everyone in this room knows, 808 00:40:59,036 --> 00:41:01,676 Speaker 1: the racial experience of living in this country is just 809 00:41:01,876 --> 00:41:05,116 Speaker 1: profoundly different from the racial experience almost anywhere else. 810 00:41:05,916 --> 00:41:08,636 Speaker 5: Would life have been different if you were a darker complexion? 811 00:41:10,396 --> 00:41:16,596 Speaker 1: Probably probably, I guess, although well, black people always know 812 00:41:16,716 --> 00:41:20,716 Speaker 1: that I'm biracial. White people don't necessarily know, so it 813 00:41:20,756 --> 00:41:23,196 Speaker 1: would have made my uh. I have to tell my 814 00:41:23,236 --> 00:41:27,956 Speaker 1: favorite story ever along the grounds is as running down. 815 00:41:28,676 --> 00:41:31,076 Speaker 1: I went for a run one day in LA and 816 00:41:31,236 --> 00:41:36,556 Speaker 1: running down Ocean Boulevard and this black guy in a 817 00:41:36,596 --> 00:41:40,876 Speaker 1: gorgeous open portion n at eleven, like one of those 818 00:41:40,916 --> 00:41:43,836 Speaker 1: tricked out ones, like one of these incredibly handsome black ones, 819 00:41:44,196 --> 00:41:48,236 Speaker 1: looks at me, sees me running, stands up, so he's like, 820 00:41:48,876 --> 00:41:52,516 Speaker 1: you know, he's through the roof of his car, raises 821 00:41:52,516 --> 00:41:55,076 Speaker 1: his handling and says, I love what you do, bro. 822 00:41:56,036 --> 00:41:57,836 Speaker 1: So like I get a lot of love. 823 00:41:59,436 --> 00:41:59,676 Speaker 2: And that. 824 00:42:00,476 --> 00:42:02,356 Speaker 1: So if I was darker, when I get more love 825 00:42:02,396 --> 00:42:05,556 Speaker 1: from that, I mean maybe, but I can't see how 826 00:42:05,596 --> 00:42:06,796 Speaker 1: it got even more than I already get. 827 00:42:06,876 --> 00:42:10,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you very much. Okay, all right, thank you 828 00:42:10,916 --> 00:42:21,076 Speaker 2: so much, guys, and thank you to MegaR Evers College. 829 00:42:21,396 --> 00:42:28,276 Speaker 2: You know, higher education is wonderful. 830 00:42:30,316 --> 00:42:33,036 Speaker 1: This was the perfect way to launch Justin's new show, 831 00:42:33,436 --> 00:42:36,036 Speaker 1: started from the bottom, and I urge all of you 832 00:42:36,116 --> 00:42:39,316 Speaker 1: to subscribe to it right now and never forget. If 833 00:42:39,356 --> 00:42:44,316 Speaker 1: you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber, you hear all story. No ads, 834 00:42:45,236 --> 00:42:48,236 Speaker 1: believe me, it's worth it. Thanks to everyone at Mega 835 00:42:48,276 --> 00:42:52,276 Speaker 1: Evers College for hosting Justin and me, especially Alexis McLean 836 00:42:52,636 --> 00:42:56,716 Speaker 1: and Peter Holloman. Special thanks also to Keishaw Williams, our 837 00:42:56,756 --> 00:43:00,476 Speaker 1: associate editor, who is also a Medgar Evers alum and 838 00:43:00,556 --> 00:43:04,516 Speaker 1: had the wonderful idea of bringing us there. Division's history 839 00:43:04,716 --> 00:43:08,076 Speaker 1: is produced by lem And Gestu, Amy gains Kiara Powell, 840 00:43:08,276 --> 00:43:12,196 Speaker 1: and Jacob Smith. Today's episode was produced by Kishelle Williams, 841 00:43:12,476 --> 00:43:17,276 Speaker 1: David Jaw and Amy Gaines. Our showrunner is Peter Clowney. 842 00:43:17,756 --> 00:43:21,476 Speaker 1: Original scoring by Luis Guerra, mastering by Ben Tolliday and 843 00:43:21,676 --> 00:43:29,236 Speaker 1: engineering by Nina Lawrence. Special thanks to Julia Barton. I'm 844 00:43:29,236 --> 00:43:30,116 Speaker 1: Malcolm Glawell.