1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:02,599 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 2: Two bodies found in the search for two Kansas moms 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 2: who disappear en route to a children's pickup and birthday 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 2: party for in custody after pools of blood found next 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 2: to the missing mom's empty car. I'm Nancy Grace. Thank 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: you for being with us. I'm Nancy Grace and this 7 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 2: is crime Story again. Thank you for being with us. 8 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 2: In the last hour's breaking news, two bodies have been 9 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 2: found in a rural area. We believe at this hour 10 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 2: they are the bodies of two missing Kansas moms. The 11 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 2: two moms go missing as they are en route to 12 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 2: pick up children for a children's birthday party. What more 13 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 2: do we know? 14 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 3: Take a listen to this. 15 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 4: Fifteen days after Veronica Butler and Jillian and Kelly are 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 4: reported missing, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation announces the 17 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 4: recovery of two bodies. The identity of the remains has 18 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 4: not been confirmed as of yet, but we do know 19 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 4: the remains have been sent to the Oklahoma Medical Examiner's 20 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 4: Office for identification as well as the cause and manner 21 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 4: of death. 22 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 2: Those two bodies waiting to be identified at the Oklahoma Morgue. 23 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 2: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of 24 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 2: what we know right now. We are also learning that 25 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 2: at this hour four people in custody. 26 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 3: What more do we know? 27 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 2: Lauren Colin is joining US investigative journalists, host of Outlier 28 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 2: podcast at laurenconlin dot com. Lauren, thank you for being 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: with us. Tell me about the discovery of the bodies, 30 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 2: and we will get to the four defense behind bars 31 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: in a moment. But first, these bodies. Do you believe 32 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: they're the two Kansas moms? 33 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 5: Unfortunately, Nancy, I believe they found the bodies of Veronica 34 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 5: Butler and Jillian Kelly. They did say they found the 35 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 5: bodies in Texas County. Three of the people arrested are 36 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 5: from Simmerin County. I did find that one of the 37 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 5: men arrested. I know you'll get to it. He does 38 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 5: own some land in Texas County, a place called Texahoma, Oklahoma. 39 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 6: So I guess we'll see. 40 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 5: But as soon as the news broke on Saturday that 41 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 5: they believed the pools of blood were possibly from the. 42 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 6: Women being shot, immediately when they found these bodies, I 43 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 6: thought it was them. 44 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 3: Well, here's the other bombshell. 45 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 2: In addition to four people being behind bars, right now 46 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: in connection with the discovery of the two bodies. One 47 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: of those people is one of the women's mother in law, granny. 48 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 3: That's right, a mother in law behind bars after her 49 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 3: daughter in law. 50 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: We believed body is found en route to a kid's 51 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: birthday party. Joining me renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist, opioid 52 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 2: treatment expert, and author of American narcan doctor William Maroney. 53 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: Doctor moroney, if these two bodies, and again, everybody, we're 54 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 2: going to get to the four people behind bars right now, 55 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: one of them being one of the victims of mother 56 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 2: in law. I mean, I know a lot of mothers 57 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 2: in law don't get along with the daughter in law, 58 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 2: but really, now the child is going to be raised 59 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: without a mother at all. Any mothers better than no mother, 60 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: many people would argue, But doctor Moroney, I want to 61 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 2: get to the bodies, because doctor Moroney, this is the 62 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: key to solving this case. What do you make of 63 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 2: what Dave mac just reported that authorities do not believe 64 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 2: the two bodies had been exposed to the elements for 65 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: the entire two weeks the women were missing. What are 66 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: they talking about? 67 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 7: The first thing they're talking about is temperature and humidity 68 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 7: we call weather. If you put a body in moderate weather, 69 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 7: it begins to bloat and dry out, and there's insect activity. 70 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 7: So the lack of bloating, the lack of drying, and 71 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 7: the lack of blowflies suggest the bodies were indoors, They 72 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 7: were hidden and maggots. Maggots take over in four to 73 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 7: five days at sixty to seventy to seventy five degrees. 74 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 7: Maggots can take a full body down to near skeleton, 75 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 7: something that looks like an Egyptian mummy. If you have 76 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 7: a body and you have facial recognition and you have 77 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 7: big muscle mass, that body was in a cooler, that 78 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 7: body was in a shed, that body was in a trunk, 79 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 7: or that body was wrapped in plastic. 80 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,119 Speaker 2: Annie, I say, you have a guest with you today. 81 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: I believe that is Willow. 82 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 3: Why why can't you tell us with Willow? 83 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 7: What I want to tell you about with Willow is 84 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 7: the emphasis on pools of blood in a gunshot. You 85 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 7: have a penetrating injury that when you have blood, you're 86 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 7: going into the body deep. We're talking six seventy ten inches. 87 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 7: That's how you get enough blood out of a body 88 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 7: with gunshot. If you had to stab a box with something, 89 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 7: you'd need thirty or forty of these, and you'd have 90 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 7: to get people in the groin here, under the arms, 91 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 7: or in the neck. Even if you had a larger knife, 92 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 7: you still need twenty or thirty deep wounds to create 93 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 7: pools of blood. Two gunshots can give you pools of blood. 94 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 2: Now, you just pointed to willow, and you pointed to 95 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: three separate locations. I assume that you are referring to 96 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: the carotid, the femeral, and the arm. 97 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 7: The arm arteries large vessels. That's the only way you 98 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 7: can get pools of blood with a knife. With a gun, 99 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 7: you can get pools of blood with just two shots. 100 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 2: Now, that would be the femeral, which is down on 101 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 2: either side of your crotch. It's your leg major major artery, 102 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 2: as big or bigger than the carotid artery. That's why 103 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 2: you know you get shot in the leg, you can 104 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: bleed out just as quickly as you can with the 105 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: carotid artery. The carotid artery, of course, everyone knows, is 106 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 2: uh the artery leading I would say, as a layperson 107 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 2: from the heart to the brain, right right, right, Okay, 108 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: And then what was the arm one called a brak 109 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 2: you'll artery, what is that called? 110 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 7: Yes, the brachial artery. The breakial complex veans nerves and arteries. 111 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 7: But your big vessels are going to be femeral and 112 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 7: in the neck. 113 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 3: Guys. 114 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 2: The reason we're going into this is because multiple large 115 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 2: pools of blood were found around the missing Kansas mom's 116 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: empty vehicle. 117 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 3: Listen. 118 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 8: Initially, police said there was evidence of suspicious circumstances in 119 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 8: Veronica Butler's car. That evidence was a small amount of 120 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 8: blood inside the vehicle. Police have now released new information. 121 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 8: The vehicle was found on a dirt path one thousand 122 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 8: feet off Oklahoma State Highway ninety five, and near the car, 123 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 8: police find multiple puddles of blood, leading investigators to conclude 124 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 8: the women were shot before they were abducted. 125 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: So to you, doctor William Moroney, I want to talk 126 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: about what evidence we can get from, and we both 127 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: fully believe these are the two women's bodies. Okay, you've 128 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: got two women missing. Two bodies are found not too 129 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 2: far away in an area where Lauren Colin pointed out 130 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 2: one of the defendants we think owns property nearby. 131 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 3: And then immediately after the two. 132 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: Bodies are found four people are arrested. Hold on with me, 133 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 2: doctor William Moroney, renowned medical examiner. We're very honored to 134 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 2: have him on today. Also joining me right now, Tim Janssen. 135 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 2: He's a high profile former federal prosecutor and analyst for 136 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: the Tallahassee Democrat, and today he has a special insight 137 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 2: on mothers in law that kill. He has just finished 138 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 2: an extensive analysis regarding the Dan Markle murder and behind 139 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: bars right now as the let me say, puppet master 140 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 2: of all that is Missus Adelson, the mother in law. 141 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 2: You know, Tim Jansen, I don't believe I've ever seen 142 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,479 Speaker 2: anything a lot where mothers in law are so enraged, 143 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 2: very often over the grandchild. Remember in the Markall case, 144 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: Dan Markle, the Florida professor, refused to move so his 145 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: wife could take another job or relocate near her mother 146 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 2: down I believe it was in Miami or South Miami, 147 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 2: and next thing you know, he's dead and mother in 148 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 2: law is behind bars. 149 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's bad. 150 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 9: It seems like these parents are grandparents and now going 151 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 9: to the second parental stages where the grandchildren are more 152 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 9: important than anything in their lives. Looking at this booking 153 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 9: photo looks like a very troubled, hardened woman who had 154 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 9: a difficult life, who had these grandchildren. 155 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 3: Well old, Oh wait a minute, Wait a minute, you're. 156 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: Taking one look at her skin care and you're saying 157 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 2: she had a hard life, because I am not buying 158 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: into that one minute. And I don't care how bad 159 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 2: her upbringing, her life was, for trying to know nothing 160 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 2: about yet, that does not excuse double murder. 161 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 3: Just no, Tim Jansen, I'm very surprised you would even 162 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 3: say that. 163 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 2: No, No, I'm not she's having a hard life because 164 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 2: she's got wrinkles. 165 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 3: Well, they were all up the creek without a paddle. 166 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 2: No. 167 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 9: What I'm saying is, I've seen lots of photos like this. 168 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 9: It's clear that no one should kill anyone. She should 169 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 9: turn over the kids. It's clear that the bodies were 170 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 9: moved because lack of decompensation, and the police are gonna 171 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 9: figure it out. They're going to leave some DNA residue. 172 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 9: They've got the suspects. It's not a coincidence that these 173 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 9: people were missing. They were shot in the car, large blood. 174 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 9: It's clear people kill people who they know. This is 175 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 9: not a serial murder. And I'm not giving any judgment 176 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 9: on whether she did it or didn't do it, I'm 177 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 9: just saying that's not a very nice booking photo. 178 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 3: Guys. 179 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 2: In the last hours, Ellie law enforcement speaks Listen. 180 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 10: We received a call on March thirtieth of an abandoned 181 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 10: vehicle missing with persons missing from the vehicle. Deputies immediately 182 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 10: responded to the area when they received When they arrived 183 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 10: on scene, they found some things that just weren't adding up, 184 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 10: So we established a crime scene and then notified the 185 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 10: LSBI to have them come and assist us with this 186 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 10: and to actually take lead on the case. We established 187 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 10: a search party made up of the Gamment Fire Department 188 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 10: and several of the volunteer fire departments in the county, 189 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 10: and we searched the area around the crime scene for 190 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 10: about a mile in each direction. 191 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace. 192 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 2: Two bodies found in the hunt for Kansas moms who 193 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 2: vanished two weeks ago, police arresting four people for murder 194 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 2: and kidnap after quote pools of blood were found next 195 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 2: to their empty car. Doctor William Maroney are NOOW medical 196 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 2: examiner and author of American Narkian on Amazon dtr Moroney 197 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 2: back to the three arteries femeral caroateid braki'al. Large pools 198 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 2: of blood, multiple large pools of blood, and it brings 199 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 2: to mind Dr William Maroney Jennifer Dulos that missed the 200 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 2: Connecticut missing mother of five. Cops thought into her garage 201 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 2: and I'm like, yes, she's dead because there's so much 202 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: blood found in her garage. There's no way she could 203 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 2: be alive. Now, how does that happen? How much blood 204 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 2: does there have to be for you to know the 205 00:12:58,280 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 2: victim is dead. 206 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 7: Here's example from one of our local barbecues. This is 207 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 7: a gallon, sorry, this is a leader of iced tea. 208 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 7: You can survive, you won't be able to breathe, and 209 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 7: you'll have low blood pressure. But this is the limit. 210 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 7: This is the threshold of how much blood you have 211 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 7: to lose, demonstrated as iced tea from my barbecue shop. 212 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 7: Something would absolutely call you would call exanguination that you're dead. 213 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 7: Would be two full leaders A two leader. 214 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 2: Okay, can you hold on just a moment, plays Doctor 215 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 2: William moriamie. Can you please speak imperial, not metric, not 216 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 2: milli leaders. Okay, So it's my understanding that one US 217 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: gallon is point two six ' four leaders, Okay, so 218 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 2: point to six. 219 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 3: About a close to a third. 220 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 2: Of a leader okay, a third of a gallon? Okay, 221 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 2: that's a half a gallon. And you're saying you will 222 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 2: not exeguinate with a half a gallon? How much do 223 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 2: you have to bleed to be dead? A full gallon? 224 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 7: You'll pass out really close. What do I have on here? 225 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 7: Just a little between two and three quarts and you'll 226 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 7: pass out and you'll die eventually because you can't get 227 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 7: enough oxygen your brain. So that's the limit is less 228 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 7: than two quarts. You'll lose consciousness, but you won't die. 229 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 7: Two to three quarts you can't function. Your heart will 230 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 7: go into a schemia and you'll have a stroke and 231 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 7: your brain won't work. 232 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 3: Okay. 233 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: Straight out to James shell Nutt joining US twenty seven 234 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 2: years metro major case and former SWAT now high profile 235 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 2: lawyer joining US out of Alabama. 236 00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 3: James, thank you for being with us when. 237 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: We here a long line of Texas County sheriffs, SWAT 238 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: and the OSBI. What does that tell you from your 239 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: time with SWAT, Well. 240 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 11: It tells me two things. Number one, it tells me 241 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 11: that they're not going out to do an interview. They've 242 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 11: got a warrant in hand. They're going out to put 243 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 11: a pair of handcuffs on somebody that they believe is dangerous, 244 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 11: somebody in this case who has murdered someone, and somebody 245 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 11: in this case who they fill is a threat even 246 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 11: to law enforcement. 247 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 2: As a SWAT a former SWAT member, what do you 248 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 2: do in this kind of situation. 249 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 3: You're arresting four people. 250 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 11: So what you do here is number One, you gained 251 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 11: some intelligence on where you're going to You gain some 252 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 11: intelligence on the people, including the backgrounds of these people. 253 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 11: Do they have any prior offenses or are they known 254 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 11: to possess weapons, which obviously a weapon was involved in 255 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 11: this type of crime. So you get some intelligence both 256 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 11: on the people you are going to arrest as well 257 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 11: as the locations that they may be. And you come 258 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 11: up with a game plan and come up with a 259 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 11: plan on what each team is going to do and 260 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 11: how each team is going to secure the perimeter of 261 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 11: the home, and then a plan on the actual entry 262 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 11: if indeed you have to make an entry into that home. 263 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting about what you're saying. Jim James, 264 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 2: Tim Jansen with me, a former federal prosecutor analyst Tallahassee Democrat, 265 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 2: is the level of violence that a grandma slash mother 266 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:30,359 Speaker 2: in law will exceed in order to get that grandchild. 267 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 2: Because in both Markel where the Florida State law professor 268 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: was murdered with the grandma the mother in law pulling 269 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 2: the strings, and now in this case where the mother 270 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 2: in law slash grandmother is arrested, all it was that 271 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 2: day is mommy was picking up the children at a 272 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 2: designated location the Four Corners Trading Company to go to 273 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 2: a kid's birthday party. 274 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 3: That's all that was happening. Why do you have to 275 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 3: shoe two ladies did one? You don't even know why 276 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 3: over a birthday party? 277 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 9: Well, you know, in the Markel case, it appears that 278 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 9: the grandmother was the one initiating the violence and get 279 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 9: her grandkids back. We don't know enough yet in this 280 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 9: case how this transpired, but we know a violent crime 281 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 9: occurred in the car, the bodies were moved, and they 282 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 9: were secreted somewhere for some time period, and then the 283 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 9: bodies were placed where they were found. So we don't 284 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 9: know exactly what the grandmother's role was, but clearly she's 285 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 9: involved in this just likes Miss Markela, I mean Miss. 286 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,959 Speaker 3: Ailsen, was you know another issue here? 287 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 2: You have two locations. This is significant and I want 288 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 2: to go to you again. James shel Nutt, twenty seven 289 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 2: years Metro major case and SWAT Now lawyer shelle Nutt. 290 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:58,239 Speaker 2: We just saw and Sean Puffy comes aka Diddy, simultaneous 291 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 2: raids going down on two sides of the country and 292 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,959 Speaker 2: it was just very heavily orchestrated. 293 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:08,959 Speaker 3: And planned ahead of time by the FEDS. 294 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 2: In this case, You've got at least two, if not 295 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: three law enforcement l units together and they raid two places, 296 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: make four arrests in two locations. That is a lot 297 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 2: of planning and precision timing. 298 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 11: Absolutely, and what they're trying to do is they're trying 299 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 11: to maintain the element of surprise. You know, when you 300 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 11: go to one house where one group of suspects is 301 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 11: at and then there's another group of suspects at another house, 302 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 11: you know, you have to anticipate that somebody may call 303 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 11: the second group and say, hey, we've got police here, 304 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 11: which will give them time enough to possibly are themselves, 305 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 11: possibly time enough to escape. And if it's not the 306 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 11: group of suspects, you know, people tend to know their neighbors. 307 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 11: Often they have each other's numbers and way to get 308 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 11: in touch with each other. So yeah, it's critical both 309 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 11: for the safety standpoint of law enforcement serve of these 310 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 11: warrants as well as to make sure that the suspects 311 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 11: you're looking for were't tipped off and escape. 312 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 2: Lauren Colin joining me, investigative journalists, host of The Outlier, Lauren, 313 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. Explain to me how 314 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 2: the arrests go down to simultaneous arrests in two locations, 315 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 2: so four in all. 316 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 5: So Tad Cullum and Tiffany Adams, they were dating and 317 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 5: they were together. He is a known associate of her. 318 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 5: I think we all saw this coming from the beginning. 319 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 5: And then Cole and Coorra Twombly they are also friends. 320 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 2: Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait wait cal 321 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 2: Earl Twombley and Cora Twombley. 322 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 3: They're more than friends. They've got the same last name, 323 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 3: they're married. 324 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 6: They're friends with Tiffany and. 325 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 2: Tad, friends of Tad Colum and Tiffany Adams. 326 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 3: Got it, Okay, yes, exactly. 327 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 5: And so I want to add something that there was 328 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 5: a scheduled hearing for custody on April sevent teenth, twenty 329 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 5: twenty four, where Veronica Butler was petitioning to have overnight visits, 330 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 5: unsupervised visits, and overall increased visits with her children, and 331 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 5: it was very clear Tiffany Adams did not like this. 332 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 6: She actually had. 333 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 5: Her son relinquished parental rights and threw her son under 334 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 5: the bus and saying, look, Veronica took advantage of the 335 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 5: fact that my son was into partying and drugs and 336 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 5: didn't seem to care about caring for his children anymore, 337 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 5: so she swooped in and all of a sudden, one 338 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 5: of these additional visits. 339 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 2: Hey White, well, why I want to hear more about 340 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 2: what you're saying, Lauren Colin joining me investigative journalists. You're 341 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 2: saying that grandma, grandma's Tiffany Adams age fifty four, also 342 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 2: mother in law to one of the victims of Veronica Butler. 343 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 2: This is the mother in law and when her own 344 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 2: son was fining for custody, she swoops in backstabs her 345 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 2: own son, so she the grandma, can't get custody. 346 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 5: Yes, and let me point this out. This could be nothing, 347 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,239 Speaker 5: but I thought the timing was very very odd. So 348 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 5: when she is filing emotion or I think it was 349 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 5: it was November fifteenth, she filed emotion for continuance. The 350 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 5: next day, her son is booked and arrested on a 351 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 5: firearm charge having. 352 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 6: A firearm after committing a felony. 353 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 5: And I thought to myself, did she turn her own 354 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 5: son in so he wouldn't have to be a part 355 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 5: of any of this? That occurred to me. Is she 356 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 5: that calculated? Is she that devious? And I think she was. 357 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 2: Doctor William Moroney, now medical examiner joining us. I'm not 358 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 2: sure I'm buying into the theory the bodies had not 359 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: been exposed to the elements. We're not going to really 360 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 2: know anything until we hear from the medical examiner. If 361 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 2: the bodies had been exposed to the elements. And I 362 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 2: believe it was fifty four degree weather, but it fluctuates. 363 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 3: What would you expect to find, doctor. 364 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 7: Moroni, fifty four degrees is the lower limit of almost 365 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 7: normal ambient outdoor. You would definitely see blowflies and maggots 366 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 7: eating away at masses of protein and muscle. They start 367 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 7: in the mouth, they go to the ears, they come 368 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 7: out of the eyes. You'd lose the heads right away, 369 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 7: and then they kind of go to the groin, they 370 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 7: go to the rectum, and then they eat upwards and 371 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 7: the rest of the body would bloat. At fifty four degrees, 372 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 7: maggot activity might go on for a week. At sixty 373 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 7: five to seventy degrees, maggots will take the body down 374 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 7: the skeletal within two or three days. After that, then 375 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 7: it's large insect activity. And if it's cold and there's 376 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 7: no maggot activity, you'll still get bloating and decomposition and 377 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 7: the body will be dry, hard decomposition, more like a mummy. 378 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 7: And when it gets really hot, it's too hot for magots. 379 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 7: So you have to be you have to have this window. 380 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 7: So we'll see. If these bodies come back with maggot activity, 381 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 7: then they've been working on them for a long time. 382 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 3: You know. 383 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: Another issue is how are the bodies going to be identified? 384 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 2: I guess if they have decomposed to a certain point, 385 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,479 Speaker 2: they'll have to be identified by either dental records like 386 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 2: cavities in a certain spot, implants, braces, or DNA. 387 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 3: Also, if the bodies are decomposed. 388 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 2: And this is very critical, doctor Moroney, how will you 389 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 2: figure out coeod cause of death. 390 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 7: I guess what you're looking for is full body X 391 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 7: race to look for rounds shotguns forty fives nine millimeters. 392 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 7: And the what we've been leaning with with our local 393 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 7: Michigan State Police is that DNA is good, but it 394 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 7: takes a long time, and if you've got a good 395 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 7: forensic dentist, you can identify a body in a day 396 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 7: or two. So dental records, which people always thought was 397 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 7: kind of slow and archaic, actually are very fast, and 398 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 7: they are a lot faster than DNA. DNA is precise, 399 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 7: but it takes a long time. So these are young people. 400 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 7: These are young people in situations where they'll have fillings, 401 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 7: or they'll have other dental work, or you know, maybe 402 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 7: some bridges or some veneers. Very popular things now are 403 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 7: the treatments and the cosmetic dentistry is so much more 404 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 7: involved now than it was twenty years ago. 405 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 2: So you can absolutely identify through dental records. And another thing, 406 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 2: if the bodies have been decomposed to such an extent 407 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 2: that you're describing. 408 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 3: You recall Gabby Petito, who had. 409 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 2: Been her remains lying out and dispersed camping out west. 410 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 3: So much animal activity had occurred. 411 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 2: They identified her originally by the sweatshirt that she was wearing. 412 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 2: So sometimes we're at that point until we can get DNA, 413 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:35,959 Speaker 2: doctor Moroni. 414 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 7: Yeah, what we've seen in bodies that have been exposed 415 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 7: for more than two weeks with animal activity is that 416 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 7: sometimes you have to be careful that marks on bones 417 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 7: and the skull are animals knowing and not assault. But 418 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 7: the dental records they're so solid. If you can get 419 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 7: back and look at she needs dental records and other things, 420 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 7: they last for a long time and they're so much 421 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 7: faster than DNA. 422 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, the temperaturers went up, I believe into the seventies, 423 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,239 Speaker 2: So I don't know what effect that's going to have 424 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 2: on the bodies, but once animal activity is factored in, 425 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 2: is going to be really hard. So what more do 426 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: we know about potential motive? Take a listen to Crime 427 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: Onlines Dave. 428 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 4: Mac news report say. Ten days before the moms went missing, 429 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 4: Veronica Butler filed a court petition for full custody of 430 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 4: her children. Currently, Butler's former mother in law is the 431 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 4: children's guardian. Crime Stories has not yet been able to 432 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 4: independently verify the petition. KESNTV also requested the document, but 433 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 4: we're told the document is now sealed. The order sealing 434 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 4: and restricting the case was sealed after the women went 435 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 4: missing to quote, protect the integrity of a criminal investigation 436 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 4: and to protect minor children. The information on who asked 437 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 4: for the document to be sealed is also sealed. 438 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 2: Jans shell joining us from the shell Nut Law firm, 439 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 2: along with Tim Jensen joining US out of Florida. James 440 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: shell nutt the timing here the records regarding those custody 441 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 2: issues were sealed when the mom and her friend go missing. 442 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: I find that very probative. It proves to me that 443 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: that is the motive they're sealing the custody records. I 444 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 2: believe because that's the motive. 445 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 11: Absolutely well. It's a basic statistical fact that most people 446 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 11: are killed when they're victims of homicide by people that 447 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 11: they know. And then you look out of the people 448 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 11: that they know that are closest to them, and you say, okay, well, 449 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 11: who has a motive. You know, it doesn't get to 450 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 11: be a much stronger motive than finding over custody of kids. 451 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 11: We've seen it time and time again. 452 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 2: Four people now behind bars in connection with the disappearance 453 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: of two Kansas moms on their way to pick up 454 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 2: children for a kid's birthday party. These are the four 455 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 2: to whom I am referring Tim Jansen joining me, high 456 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 2: profile former federal prosecutor now analysts with the Tallahassee Democrat. 457 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 2: Tim again, the potential motive of custody, but not from 458 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 2: a parent, from. 459 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 3: A mother in law. 460 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 2: I find that very unusual that you would resort to 461 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 2: murder double murder to keep custody of your grandchild. 462 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 9: Yeah, it's troubling that a grandparent would assume and commit 463 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 9: crimes to keep custody of a grandchild. You know, there's 464 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 9: lots of reasons why they could be financially benefiting, if 465 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 9: the kids are getting Social Security, or if they're getting 466 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 9: child support, or if it's just the grandmother has grown 467 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 9: a fond of these grandchildren and they'll revert to anything 468 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 9: if they think they're going to lose a court case 469 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 9: or if they have lost a court case. It clearly 470 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 9: shows a motive and the timing is not just a coincidence. 471 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 9: It's very true. 472 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 2: And Tim Jansen, you just covered this in the Markell 473 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: case where Dan Markle was murdered with the mother in 474 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 2: law pulling the strings along with the brother of the 475 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 2: mom and what it boiled down to you and these 476 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 2: are highly educated, rich, wealthy people down in Florida. Long 477 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 2: story short, money and education doesn't matter when it comes 478 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 2: to custody. And in that case, the grandma thought she 479 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: was absolutely a better guardian than the father, the biological father, 480 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 2: who wanted desperately to be with his children. 481 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 9: Well, Donna certainly wanted her daughter and her grandchildren to 482 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 9: move to South Florida. On all the evidence proves, or 483 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 9: at least an alleged, she pulled the strings and had 484 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 9: her son, Charlie commit the crimes by hiring lesser to 485 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 9: dos to commit the crime. Now her son's been convicted, 486 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 9: the murderers have been convicted, and now Donna is waiting 487 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 9: for trial in September. 488 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: Guys, in the last hours Ellie law enforcement speaks. 489 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 3: Listen. 490 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 12: On Friday, the informations were filed and they were filed 491 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 12: under seal. The reason they were filed under seal was 492 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 12: to protect our law enforcement officers and to try to 493 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 12: keep the children out of harm's way. We were successful, 494 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 12: no shots were fired and the children were kept out 495 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 12: of harms way. Our district judges sues an order this morning, 496 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 12: and those files are now unsealed, so you can get 497 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 12: the informations at the courthouse. You can get the affidavits 498 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 12: at the courthouse, which will give you give you the 499 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 12: facts that we were working off. 500 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: Of crime stories with Nancy Grace. 501 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 2: Joining me now is a renowned psychologist, TV radio trauma 502 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 2: expert Karen Stark. You can find her at Karenstark dot com. 503 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 2: That's Karen with a C Karen Stark. Grandparents, mothers in law, 504 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: the bad blood between the mother. 505 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 3: In law and the daughter in law. 506 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 2: I've never seen anything like it, And as you know, 507 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 2: I'm super blessed because my mother in law was a saint. 508 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 2: Can you believe in all the years, we never had 509 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 2: one crossword ever, not even once, Karen start Apparently not 510 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 2: the case here. 511 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 13: You are very lucky, Nancy, because we know so many 512 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 13: stories about mother in laws and their daughter in laws 513 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 13: and the conflict that they get into or with son 514 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 13: in laws. There's been a lot of in law problems, 515 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 13: but this case is extreme because you have a mother 516 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 13: in law who is obsessed with the children. In some ways, 517 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 13: she's delusional, Nancy, because it's as though these are her children, 518 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 13: as though she gave births to them, and she will 519 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 13: do anything like a mama bear to protect them and 520 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 13: make sure that their mother or their father can't get 521 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 13: their hands on them. And that is not what you 522 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 13: normally find. So you know that there's a problem, there's 523 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,959 Speaker 13: something with this woman. And think about the fact that 524 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 13: she was able to in some way enlist the aid 525 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 13: in a way of these other people to help her 526 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 13: and convince them that she had to have these children 527 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 13: without a doubt they had to be under her care. 528 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 13: That's as extremist I've ever heard. As extremists, you can 529 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 13: get true obsessions, you. 530 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 3: Know, Karen Starr, you're bringing up a really good point. 531 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: It's not just the mother in law, the grandma to 532 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 2: the children, Lauren Colin. 533 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 3: Karen Stark is right. 534 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: If police are correct, this mother in law had to 535 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 2: convince three other people to help her commit double murder. 536 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 3: Who are these people? 537 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: Yeah? 538 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 5: Absolutely, so I want to go back to twenty twenty two. 539 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 5: Tad Cullum used to employ her son, Wrangler Rickman, on 540 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 5: his farm, and Tad spoke on behalf of Wrangler in 541 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 5: twenty twenty two when he was trying to get his 542 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 5: children back. He said, this man is amazing to his kids. 543 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 5: He's a great father and he deserves to have them back. 544 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 5: At this point, Tad had never been arrested. I did 545 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 5: see that there was an arrest in twenty twenty three 546 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 5: for feloniously pointing a firearm and going. 547 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 6: Over to Cole Twombly. 548 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 5: He also served eleven months at the Department of Corrections 549 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 5: in Texas for a deadly conduct charge, which is a misdemeanor. 550 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 5: So it's really sad that this woman seems to have 551 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 5: this power over these people. I don't know their level 552 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 5: of intelligence. I don't really know much about them besides 553 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 5: their job. The one thing that I find to be 554 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 5: very calculated by Tiffany is that I believe. 555 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 6: This was planned. 556 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 5: She had one court, a pointed supervisor whose name is 557 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 5: Cheryl Brune, that was basically had not missed a visit 558 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 5: with these children in months, and then all of a sudden, 559 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,959 Speaker 5: on March thirtieth, Cheryl Brune maybe is told not to come, 560 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 5: or maybe you know, she calls in sick. I have 561 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,320 Speaker 5: no idea, and then Jillian Kelly steps in. So it's 562 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 5: completely heartbreaking. 563 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 3: This is what I understand. 564 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 2: We're wondering how the grandma exercised mind control over the 565 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 2: other three. I know that the grandma, Tiffany Adams, was 566 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 2: in a love relationship with tad Bert Collum. 567 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 3: The two romantically linked. What do we know about that? 568 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, they've been dating for a while. 569 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 5: And I do have some local sources that say that 570 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 5: Tiffany is scary and it's very well known in that town. 571 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 6: I believe you mentioned. 572 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 5: It's a really small town of twenty thousand people. So 573 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 5: she does exercise this control over many, including her boyfriend 574 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 5: Tad Cullum. 575 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 6: So I have no doubt she was able to course 576 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 6: him very easily. 577 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 5: And my local source also said, and I chose not 578 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 5: to report on this because I didn't have a police report, 579 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 5: but my local source says she witnessed with her own 580 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 5: eyes in twenty twenty one, Tiffany Adams actually shove Veronica 581 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 5: Butler against a car at a children's sports game. 582 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 3: Wow, no love loss there. 583 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 2: And now the victim Veronica Butler aged twenty seven, and 584 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 2: friend acquainted as Jillie and Kelly age thirty nine, the 585 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 2: preacher's wife. 586 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 3: Both dead. You know, I'm thinking. 587 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 2: About to James shell Nutt the fact that these four 588 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 2: had been booked on. 589 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,760 Speaker 3: Suspicion of murder. 590 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:58,479 Speaker 2: Once DNA comes back, I'm pretty sure those charges are going. 591 00:35:58,400 --> 00:35:59,760 Speaker 3: To be upgraded to murder. 592 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 2: What type of evidence are police looking for to upgrade 593 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 2: that book in charge to murder? Of course there's going 594 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 2: to be an indictment, But until then, what kind of 595 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 2: evidence are they try to glean to upgrade this kick 596 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 2: it up to full on murder? 597 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 11: One, Well, there's a smaller sports of evidence that they 598 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 11: can rely on, you know. Number One, they could rely 599 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 11: for forensic evidence. You know, whose prints were in the 600 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 11: car if you were recovered? Was there any DNA transfer? 601 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 11: Whose property were these bodies found on? 602 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:32,439 Speaker 7: You know? 603 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 11: One of the things that I would be doing as 604 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 11: a detective right now is I'd be looking at the 605 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 11: person most likely to flip in this scenario and turn 606 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 11: on the others. I think that that would be a 607 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 11: great route for law enforcement to proceed if they haven't already. 608 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 2: Guys, in the last hours, Ellie law enforcement speaks Listen. 609 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 14: We received several tips throughout this entire process, the public. 610 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 14: I mean, I know that we had faked what that 611 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 14: our local law enforcement agencies that they were able to 612 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 14: help us and throughout this search, but the people here 613 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,280 Speaker 14: throughout this area have done a tremendous job of reaching 614 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 14: out to us the original press release that we had 615 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 14: put out on March thirty first, in regards to searching 616 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 14: for these two women, we constantly received several tips and 617 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 14: had used those throughout the entire fourteen day process in 618 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 14: order to find these two bodies and then also discover 619 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 14: and find those who were responsible for this crime. 620 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 2: Four people arrested in connection with the disappearance of two 621 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 2: Kansas moms. 622 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 3: Straight back out to Jameis shell Nut, twenty seven. 623 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 2: Years Metro major case, former SWAT, now high profile lawyer 624 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 2: at the shell Nut Law firm, James shell Nut, you 625 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 2: said you believe that one of the four defendants is 626 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 2: going to be flipped. I say, hgbl No, I wouldn't 627 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 2: take a deal, even though I firmly leave. 628 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 3: Sometimes you got to go to hell to get your 629 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 3: witness to put the devil in jail. 630 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 2: Not this time, oh no, Because from what I'm hearing 631 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 2: from doctor William Morony, this crime scene is going to 632 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 2: be rife with evidence. 633 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 3: There is gonna be a lot. 634 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 2: Of planning text messages because this was an agreed upon 635 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 2: pickup by the bio mom for a kid's birthday. Party 636 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 2: she was gonna throw for her child. This was planned 637 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 2: a long time ago. You know, there's gonna be text messages, 638 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 2: phone calls. Those cell phones are going to be traced 639 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 2: right back to the area where the women, the two 640 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 2: victims were either murdered or where their bodies were disposed. 641 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 2: I would not take a deal from any of them. 642 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 2: You say, flip is the word. I say, Stu, what do. 643 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 3: I mean by that? I would put all. 644 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 2: Four of them and the same pott shall not. 645 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 11: Well, I agree that that's exactly what that is. Or 646 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 11: you know, one of the dumb things that criminals do 647 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,839 Speaker 11: sometimes is talk. And you know, when the police get 648 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,959 Speaker 11: them in there the tech to start talking with them. 649 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 11: You know, it's not always that they have to promise 650 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 11: some type of deal to get a statement. You know, 651 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 11: people talk to the police all the time, People give 652 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 11: confessions all the time. Sometimes they want to downplay what 653 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 11: their role is, and so there doesn't always have to 654 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 11: be a deal on the table for suspect to talk 655 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 11: in a homicide investigation. 656 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 2: Joining me or now psychologists Karen Stark joining us from Manhattan. 657 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 2: Karen Stark, He's right, loose lips sink ships. Thank Heaven 658 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 2: for prosecutors. Another thing that I love is when defendants 659 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 2: talk on the jail phone because all of that's being recorded. 660 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 2: Just recently, Karen, you and I were talking about the 661 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 2: Crumbley case Ethan Crumley, a notorious school shooter. 662 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 3: In a historic jury. 663 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 2: Decision, both of his parents were held libel, convicted on 664 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 2: houtside for enabling their son to be a mass shooter. 665 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 2: And of course you hear the father behind bars on 666 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 2: a phone call going f the prosecutor. I'm gonna f 667 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 2: her up at making plans to get back and seek revenge, 668 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 2: possibly kill the lady prosecutor, the elected district attorney. 669 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: Keep talking, man. 670 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,240 Speaker 2: And then of course we saw on video in color 671 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:43,720 Speaker 2: top Mom Casey Anthony completely cursing out her parents. 672 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 3: When they yeah, when they dared. 673 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 2: To say, hey, where's Kelly, and she tore them a 674 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 2: new one. And in that jurisdiction, which was Florida, you 675 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 2: have not only the audio, you could see top Mom 676 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 2: Casey Anthony at much differently than the facade she presented 677 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 2: in court. Karen Stark, so talk, Yeah, they're talking. 678 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 13: And I think these people, without a doubt, You're right, Nancy, 679 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 13: they will talk because they have a previous history with 680 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 13: the law, and even though they've been influenced by this woman, 681 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 13: brainwashed to some extent, they are not wise enough. They 682 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,919 Speaker 13: love to be in trouble in a way. That's their lifestyle. 683 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 13: They will talk, I have no doubt about it. They 684 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 13: will reveal what happened, even though it gets them in 685 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 13: trouble because they can't shut up. They really can't. So 686 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,959 Speaker 13: either they'll do it on the phone or with the law. 687 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 13: They're going to talk to somebody. 688 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 3: I'm convinced we wait as justice unfolds. 689 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 2: Let's stop to remember American hero police officer Jorge Ignacio 690 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 2: PASTOREI just thirty eight, shot in the line of duty. 691 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 2: Austin the story leaves behind his wife Kim, step children Connor, Trevor, 692 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 2: and Taylor. American hero officer Jorge Ignacio Bastore Nancy Grace 693 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 2: signing off goodbye friend.