Speaker 1: Wake that ass up in the morning.
Speaker 2: Breakfast Club Morning, everybody is dej Envy, Jess hilarious, Charlamagne
Speaker 2: the guy we are the Breakfast Club, Lon Laros of
Speaker 2: course filling in for Jess. And we got a special
Speaker 2: guest in the building, indeed, the brother Michael Eric Dison.
Speaker 1: Keeping light skin, Brothers alive. How are you feeling, brother man,
Speaker 1: I'm feeling like we're still riding with Drake, so let's
Speaker 1: hang on as long.
Speaker 3: As we can.
Speaker 4: Michael Davey got a new book I called represent the
Speaker 4: Unfinished Fight for the Vote.
Speaker 1: Yes, sir, yes, sir man, you know, look, thank the
Speaker 1: publishing gods. I was like, it's pretty good timing for
Speaker 1: what we're doing. My co author Mark Favreau, brilliant writer
Speaker 1: and gifted historian, and we wanted to talk about in
Speaker 1: issues that's central to what we're dealing with here in
Speaker 1: America today, and that's voting and why people should vote,
Speaker 1: how they fought forward over time and what it means
Speaker 1: to us today.
Speaker 4: And people think voter suppression might be new, like they've
Speaker 4: seen January sixth and all these other recent incidents that
Speaker 4: have tried to suppress the vote. But this book discusses
Speaker 4: other attempts to suppress the vote, and yeah, to vote
Speaker 4: that go way back. Can you talk about that.
Speaker 1: Yes, sir, great, great point. Let's just talk about your state,
Speaker 1: South Carolina in the eighteen I think it was seventy
Speaker 1: six election where they were deliberately trying to suppress the
Speaker 1: black vote, right, and these were the Democrats who were
Speaker 1: in power, who were trying to maintain that power. And
Speaker 1: back then it was the Democrats who were the party
Speaker 1: of the racists, and what we subsequently knew was Dixiocrats.
Speaker 1: So they invented this militia called the Red Shirts, and
Speaker 1: they were riding rough shot over black people, doing illegal
Speaker 1: stuff to suppress the vote, you know, scaring them, intimidating them.
Speaker 1: And they said, I want to read this to you
Speaker 1: because this is rather remarkable. I don't want bore people,
Speaker 1: but this is what a copy of their plan was
Speaker 1: circulated over state. This is what it says. Every Democrat
Speaker 1: must feel honored by excuse me, to control the vote
Speaker 1: at least one negro. Never threaten a man individually. If
Speaker 1: he deserves to be threatened, the necessities of the times
Speaker 1: required that he should die. A dead radical is very
Speaker 1: harmless a threatened radical is often troublesome, sometimes dangerous, and
Speaker 1: always vindictive. So they were doing their thing, and then
Speaker 1: the Democratic candidate for governor, Wade Hampton, had these people
Speaker 1: out in force, and they had rifle clubs aimed at
Speaker 1: trying to suppress the Black vote. So January sixth did
Speaker 1: not start it. It's part and parcel of what we
Speaker 1: have done as a government in America. And unbeknownst to
Speaker 1: a lot of people, January six ain't no outlier unless
Speaker 1: you say the outlining and not telling the truth about
Speaker 1: what's going on in American politics.
Speaker 2: I gotta ask, you know, what do you think about
Speaker 2: what's going on today with the race? Of course, the
Speaker 2: stuff from the beginning. We haven't seen you in a while, right,
Speaker 2: So of course, Joe Biden, you know we've been up here.
Speaker 2: I would think for like the last year and a half,
Speaker 2: A says something's not right, he's not right.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: They gave us a lot of flak for it. Then
Speaker 2: they came back and said, you're absolutely positively right.
Speaker 4: I didn't just say you wasn't not right. I said
Speaker 4: he should step out of the race because I didn't
Speaker 4: think he could win.
Speaker 2: Him showed early signs of dementia. We thought they pushed
Speaker 2: him out. Kamala Harris, head new energy. What is your
Speaker 2: thoughts on the whole thing?
Speaker 1: Let me probably a little look at it from my homie.
Speaker 1: I know that white manner to the wheels fellow, I
Speaker 1: didn't care. Just put weekend at Bernie's. Push him on
Speaker 1: the damn you know, wheelchair, push him in the room,
Speaker 1: because that was still acceptable over what we were facing. Now,
Speaker 1: there's no question that there were questions and concerns. You
Speaker 1: all were on the front line raising those questions. Other
Speaker 1: people were doing it more than nefariously behind the scenes,
Speaker 1: ostensibly supporting, but all the time stabbing you with the knife.
Speaker 1: Joe Biden I think could have still won. It would
Speaker 1: have been much closer. It had been a much tighter
Speaker 1: race house. And ever, as James Brown would say, there
Speaker 1: is no doubt that the shifting energy to Kamala Harris
Speaker 1: is remarkable. Let's be real, it's got a surprise. Kamala Harris.
Speaker 1: You ever done something you go like, damn, I ain't know.
Speaker 1: I didn't know I was gonna come like that. Nobody
Speaker 1: could have predicted it. You know what they were predicting
Speaker 1: White women ain't gonna stand up for that black woman
Speaker 1: because white women were voting disproportionately in their numbers for
Speaker 1: Donald Trump the last time around. They didn't support Hillary
Speaker 1: to the degree that they should have anyway. So what
Speaker 1: makes us think that they're gonna support this black woman
Speaker 1: from California? Well, lo and behold they is and Republican
Speaker 1: women are out there doing their things. I hope it's
Speaker 1: a reverse Tom Bradley effect, you know, the Tom Bradley
Speaker 1: effect and named after the governor of California, which meant
Speaker 1: white people would say, oh, yes, we'll vote for the
Speaker 1: negro work I got to support him, and then going
Speaker 1: to booth and then boom, vote for the white guy.
Speaker 1: I think the reverse might happen this time around, that
Speaker 1: white women might tell their husbands and other interested parties, yes,
Speaker 1: yes I'm a Trumper, and then going there and support
Speaker 1: common Mala Harris. Why because she's reasonable, Why because she's intelligent,
Speaker 1: Why because she's self possessed, she's not off the hinge
Speaker 1: as Trump is, and she continues to escalate a war
Speaker 1: against the lunacy that is Donald Trump. So it is astonishing,
Speaker 1: it's amazing. I've known Vice President Harris for some twenty
Speaker 1: odd years. She's been a woman of integrity, she's been
Speaker 1: a woman of serious regard for the people, and she's
Speaker 1: been willing to take on some complicated stuff. I know
Speaker 1: a lot of people are trying to portray her as
Speaker 1: you know, tough on crime and so on and so forth.
Speaker 1: You what amazes me about that black people be the
Speaker 1: first people called the police anyway, right, And I mean
Speaker 1: you be there, like Mama, I told you that sandwich
Speaker 1: wasn't right. I'm calling the cops on you. So obviously
Speaker 1: I'm being facetious, y'all. But the point is that does.
Speaker 3: Some very progressive things.
Speaker 1: She's done some very progressive bat that. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, we act like people don't commit crime. We
Speaker 1: acting like the people who are calling the cops or
Speaker 1: at least asking for crime, not this kind of antiquated,
Speaker 1: antediluvian assault upon the rights of black people. We ain't
Speaker 1: talking about that. We talking about you in the hood
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to live and you selling, you promoting,
Speaker 1: you doing whatever that's undermining our communities. You know, when
Speaker 1: I was I think ros Baroka, the mayor of Newark,
Speaker 1: said some of that defund the police stuff was from
Speaker 1: bourgeoise negroes who don't live in these hoods now, whether
Speaker 1: you take that or not, because I'm for a progressive
Speaker 1: realization of police being held to account. As Tyreek Hill,
Speaker 1: I think he's with us now. The point is at
Speaker 1: the same time that there are real concerns and issues
Speaker 1: of crime that she tried to address in very practical
Speaker 1: and progressive fashion, and we need to acknowledge that. But
Speaker 1: I think the energy with her is remarkable. It's astonishing,
Speaker 1: and more power to her. I hope she continues to
Speaker 1: grow in strength and numbers as we go on.
Speaker 4: Me too, you know, That's why I think your book
Speaker 4: is so timely, because you know, one thing that I've
Speaker 4: been speaking about is why aren't more people calling out
Speaker 4: the Supreme Court and calling out for being an illegitimate institution,
Speaker 4: Because what I don't even know if our democracy right
Speaker 4: now is healthy enough to have a free and fair
Speaker 4: election because of a lot of their recent rulings. And
Speaker 4: when you look at the fact that you know, you'll
Speaker 4: have so many people across the country who might refuse
Speaker 4: to certify the result of the election right right.
Speaker 3: That's why I think your book is very timed.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that and I appreciate that that's a
Speaker 1: brilliant point, because, look, there's enough skepticism to go around anyway,
Speaker 1: enough cynicism even to be generated in the aftermath of
Speaker 1: what the Supreme Court has done. And for those who
Speaker 1: say voting don't matter, just take the Supreme Court the
Speaker 1: issue you're talking about. Three justices were appointed by Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: Three Now, remember when Obama was in office and Mitch McConnell,
Speaker 1: the great al face One himself, said that, no, we're
Speaker 1: not gonna have an election. You know, we're not gonna
Speaker 1: you know, it's too close to election. We're not gonna
Speaker 1: do this is ten months before we're gonna hold Merrit
Speaker 1: Garland and let the next president decide. Donald Trump wins,
Speaker 1: he gets in his people on what Gorsag, Kavanaugh and
Speaker 1: Amy Cony Barrett right, they have shifted profoundly to the right.
Speaker 1: A court that was meant, as you said, to be
Speaker 1: a check and balance and democracy. You got the executive branch,
Speaker 1: the president and stuff. You got the legislative people in
Speaker 1: Congress and the Senate, and you got the Supreme Court,
Speaker 1: and they're all supposed to be held in check. But
Speaker 1: when the Supreme Court is in cahoots with the President
Speaker 1: of the United States of America, who happens to be
Speaker 1: an anti democracy figure, who is inspiring an insurrection in America.
Speaker 1: The very avatar symbol of what's supposed to be democracy
Speaker 1: itself is himself purging you know, voters. More importantly, democracy
Speaker 1: by his own actions is astonishing. So it is a
Speaker 1: question as to whether or not the Supreme Court should
Speaker 1: be reformed. Now, you know, President Biden put forth these rules,
Speaker 1: you know, but they to regulate themselves. The you know,
Speaker 1: what did Malcolm X say? The chickens are being now
Speaker 1: presided over by the foxes, So we can't you know,
Speaker 1: you know, Clarence Thomas, a white supremacist and black skin,
Speaker 1: a man who has been so unprincipled, and his wife
Speaker 1: and the wife of another Supreme Court Justice Alito, running
Speaker 1: your flag upside down, you are signifying to us that
Speaker 1: you are complicitus with the very forces that you should
Speaker 1: be opposing. So it is a problem. But I say,
Speaker 1: the answer then is not less voting, but more because
Speaker 1: if we change the constitution, not of the United States
Speaker 1: of America, but of the court of the voter, if
Speaker 1: we get a person in like Kamala Harris and Tim Wallas,
Speaker 1: and they are able to restore some sense of integrity
Speaker 1: and appreciation and confidence in our government that goes a
Speaker 1: long way towards trying to remedy some of these more
Speaker 1: systemic and structural problems.
Speaker 2: How do you think we should hand do two things?
Speaker 1: AI? In all this fake news? Right?
Speaker 2: Because people really believe what they're seeing online, and although
Speaker 2: you could hear it from the horse's mouth, people really
Speaker 2: believe it. So how do you think these politicians should
Speaker 2: handle a lot of the AI and a lot of
Speaker 2: the fake news that's going on across the social media
Speaker 2: and even the news is reporting some of this fake news?
Speaker 1: Of course, Look, AI is one of my favorite players
Speaker 1: of all time, so I support him whatever he is. Okay, Now,
Speaker 1: the other AI, right, because Allen ivers that I saw
Speaker 1: him for three years when I was a professor at
Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania, one of the coldest ever to do
Speaker 1: it in one of the brazses. I wish we had
Speaker 1: AI in that in terms of artificial intelligence, because it
Speaker 1: is it's tricky. We don't know what's real. The deep fakes,
Speaker 1: you know, people out here saying one thing and meaning
Speaker 1: another or lying about it even before AI think about it,
Speaker 1: the robo calls that were being out put out here.
Speaker 1: You know, voting is on Wednesday. Now you know we
Speaker 1: don't vote on Wednesday, next Saturday. To vote early to
Speaker 1: the you know souls to the polls and churches is problematic,
Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. So you've got the
Speaker 1: distillation and the dial of all kinds of fake news
Speaker 1: and fake information, which is why behooves us to listen
Speaker 1: to the breakfast Club, why behooves us to read the
Speaker 1: New York Times, the Guardian, the Wall Street Journal, whatever
Speaker 1: your paper of choice is, and to make sure you
Speaker 1: can fact check, because if you've got again, and I
Speaker 1: hate to just beat this dead horse, but you've got
Speaker 1: a president who is the font of fake news, of defactualization,
Speaker 1: a factfulness gone awry. This dude don't know a fact.
Speaker 1: If it hit him in the head, he lies, and
Speaker 1: then he lies again, and people lie and lie again
Speaker 1: and create that as the basis of facts. Then you've
Speaker 1: got Senators like Hawley and Congressmen like Jordan out here
Speaker 1: reinforcing the negativity that's generated by the falseness of it.
Speaker 1: So you got misinformation, which is I didn't mean to
Speaker 1: get it wrong, but I messed up disinformation said, I
Speaker 1: meant to get it wrong, and I'm trying to lie
Speaker 1: to you so I can convince you to do something
Speaker 1: that is against your best interests. So disinformation and misinformation
Speaker 1: are bet enough. So we got to continue to do
Speaker 1: the old fashioned way. Read it for yourself, find it
Speaker 1: in a newspaper, check it against facts of history. Begin
Speaker 1: to talk to people that you trust, talk to people
Speaker 1: who you know whose job it is to think about
Speaker 1: these things. And no disrespect to celebrities, but man, oh man,
Speaker 1: in our community especially, we're vulnerable. You know, you get
Speaker 1: a celebrity, gets mad, gets upset, talks about things. And
Speaker 1: I love my man Tyrese. He was just off base
Speaker 1: when what he was saying. I love his energy, I
Speaker 1: love the sincerity with which he said it. I know
Speaker 1: his intent was right, but sometimes you could just be
Speaker 1: spreading misinformation that ain't helpful to us as the people
Speaker 1: so read. And this is why I know the sound
Speaker 1: self serving as a black intellectual. But I'm sixty five
Speaker 1: years old. I've been out here on this battlefield for
Speaker 1: forty years, and I'm telling you I'm trying to make
Speaker 1: the life of the mind sexy. To young people. I
Speaker 1: want them to see you ain't just got to be
Speaker 1: a rapper, which is important. You ain't just got to
Speaker 1: be an entertainer, which is great. You ain't got to
Speaker 1: be a singer, You ain't got to be an athlete.
Speaker 1: You could be an intellectual, a thinker, a person who
Speaker 1: puts on every day a thinking cap and tries to
Speaker 1: reflect upon the world. There's something virtuous about that, and
Speaker 1: I'm unapologetic about that because I think we need more
Speaker 1: of that now in an era when disinformation ai, the
Speaker 1: creation of deep fakes, and the perpetuation of legacies of
Speaker 1: inequity through means to dominate the masses has to be examined.
Speaker 1: So we got to go back to old school, think
Speaker 1: about Noam Chomsky and manufacturing consent, and think about these
Speaker 1: great books Marshall mclewin in terms of talking about the
Speaker 1: media and the medium is the message. That's the kind
Speaker 1: of stuff we got to think critically about as we
Speaker 1: move forward.
Speaker 4: You know, then there's about what you said, brother Dyson.
Speaker 4: Most of your favorite entertainers are rappers that people like
Speaker 4: you like them because they're intellectual, right, whether you deem
Speaker 4: them an academic intellectual or not. Like you like Pak,
Speaker 4: you like Killer Mike, you like jay Z, you like Nas,
Speaker 4: you scarface.
Speaker 3: These brothers are intellectuals, Lauren here.
Speaker 1: You know, that's a great point, and that's why I
Speaker 1: did them. I've written books about half of them. Why
Speaker 1: because they're thoughtful. Pac. I mean, Pac was amazing on
Speaker 1: that microphone. But boy, he's up here talking about American government.
Speaker 1: I mean at twenty two, twenty three, twenty four, the
Speaker 1: son of a black panther, he said, I was literally
Speaker 1: born in jail because his mother was one of the
Speaker 1: panthers twenty one that were here in New York and
Speaker 1: we're on trial. So from the very beginning, he was
Speaker 1: trained about being skeptical and suspicious of the dominant society.
Speaker 1: When you think about a Killer Mike, a Loupe Fiasco,
Speaker 1: you know people that I've talked to constantly. When you
Speaker 1: think about a Jay, when you think about a Nas.
Speaker 1: These are highly intellectual reflections and reflectors on society. And
Speaker 1: we appeal to them precisely because they teach us to
Speaker 1: think for ourselves and to be open minded.
Speaker 5: Great point, how do you feel about do you sepplies
Speaker 5: as comments that he made about Kamala and people questioning
Speaker 5: her who applies all right?
Speaker 1: And his support you mean his support for her, Yeah.
Speaker 3: It's support.
Speaker 5: But it caused a big conversation about how do you
Speaker 5: question your candidates? Should you question your candidates? Is she
Speaker 5: being questioned unfairly? And I know your book is all
Speaker 5: about like desires and voting equaling that. So how did
Speaker 5: you feel about what he said?
Speaker 1: Rayborn? Well, I love plies. You know, prize is out
Speaker 1: there just raising the serious questions that need to be raised.
Speaker 1: Another intellectually curious and insightful young man. And look, you
Speaker 1: got to question all these candidates. I love and support
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris. I've known her for over twenty years. I
Speaker 1: think she is the best woman for the job, made
Speaker 1: the best woman win, That's what I think. However, you
Speaker 1: got to hold everybody to account. She knows that if
Speaker 1: she's worth her salt, she's got to say, hold me
Speaker 1: to account. Y'all know this old story that a Philip
Speaker 1: Randolph and Mary MacLeod Bethune a visiting with Franklin Delano
Speaker 1: Roosevelt in the White House, right, and they were part
Speaker 1: of his kitchen and cabinet. This is like back in
Speaker 1: the forties, and they're telling him you got to do this.
Speaker 1: You got to create the possibility for black people to vote.
Speaker 1: You've got to we have to do everything we can
Speaker 1: to make sure that the military is, you know, desegregated.
Speaker 1: He says, everything you were doing and saying I agree
Speaker 1: with and now go out in the streets and make
Speaker 1: me do it right. Harry Belafonte used to love telling
Speaker 1: that story. So the thing is, you got to make
Speaker 1: people hold them to account. Martin Luther King Junior on
Speaker 1: the outside putting pressure on LBJ allows LBJ to collar
Speaker 1: some of those people in the Senate and say, you're
Speaker 1: gonna vote the right way, and we're gonna do what
Speaker 1: we kind of do to pass what the Voting Rights Ack.
Speaker 1: But before that, the Civil Rights Bill, right, civil Rights Ack.
Speaker 1: And then look at the Holy Trinity sixty four, the
Speaker 1: Civil Rights Act, sixty five, the Voting Rights Ack, and
Speaker 1: in sixty eight, in homage the doctor King after his death,
Speaker 1: the Fair Housing Act. That's the Holy Trinity. That's the
Speaker 1: triumphant trilogy of transformation for Black folk in this country,
Speaker 1: politically and legislatively. So you got to hold these people
Speaker 1: to account. If it wasn't for the pressure of King,
Speaker 1: then LBJ wouldn't have done what he did, couldn't have
Speaker 1: done what he did. If it wasn't for Frederick Douglas,
Speaker 1: then Lincoln might not have acted the way he did.
Speaker 1: And we ain't talking about perfect people. You know, when
Speaker 1: people always cite the history of some of these people,
Speaker 1: Joe Biden or Lincoln, I don't give a dang what
Speaker 1: Lincoln's motivation was. He signed the Emancipation Proclamation. And when
Speaker 1: he signed that Emancipation Proclamation, that opened up possibility. So
Speaker 1: we have to stop demanding perfection even as we hold
Speaker 1: people to account. And I think it is important to
Speaker 1: hold people to account. But what's interesting to me is
Speaker 1: that when I hear all that about holding to account,
Speaker 1: I ain't seeing nobody who's promoting Donald Trump saying let
Speaker 1: me do it skeptically, let me be self critical about
Speaker 1: mister Trump. Yes, I think that in their quoting going
Speaker 1: back fifty years to find something about Joe Biden, this
Speaker 1: dude was promoting the death of the Central Park five
Speaker 1: now known as the Exonerated five not long ago, and
Speaker 1: ain't apologized yet or backtrack upon demanding the death penalty
Speaker 1: for them. Here's a guy who would his father denied
Speaker 1: people access to housing when he owned these cribs in
Speaker 1: these apartments in New York. Here's a guy who has
Speaker 1: been consistent. Now, I think rappers get it twisted because
Speaker 1: he was an icon of hip hop before. Why because
Speaker 1: he had the women he had they talk, They thought
Speaker 1: he had the money. You can see he was lying.
Speaker 1: They thought he had the buildings and the money, and
Speaker 1: he was a billionaire and all that. So that was
Speaker 1: attractive to a kind of glitzy hip hop era where
Speaker 1: it was all about the pursuit of capital. But Donald
Speaker 1: Trump was faking the funk even then. His daddy gave
Speaker 1: him four four hundred million to begin with. If your
Speaker 1: father gave you four hundred million to begin with as
Speaker 1: a little loan to hook you up and you still
Speaker 1: struggling the way you're doing, you are of a failure.
Speaker 1: So even at that level, they're problematic issues. I hear
Speaker 1: young rappers saying, but he gave us a check. No,
Speaker 1: they talking about during COVID the twelve hundred dollars or
Speaker 1: whatever they got two thousand check the record. That's the
Speaker 1: legislative branch, that is Congress stuff that he opposed, and
Speaker 1: then he took credit for distributing Joe Biden done hooked
Speaker 1: up a lot of people in terms of student loan.
Speaker 1: I know three or four people have been forgiven one
Speaker 1: hundred thousand or more. So the point is, check the record,
Speaker 1: stop the disinformation, stop the misinformation, stop the deep fakes,
Speaker 1: and ask serious questions. You must always hold people to account,
Speaker 1: hold me to account, hold y'all to account. But do
Speaker 1: it in a in a in a I think respectful fashion.
Speaker 1: The thing that I have a problem with I'm I'm
Speaker 1: on Twitter or what it acts and people calling me
Speaker 1: out my name. You know, I'm trying to check as
Speaker 1: the people I know undercover. Maybe it's my mother, Okay, no,
Speaker 1: it's not her. So the thing is is that you know,
Speaker 1: you can hold me to account, you can challenge me,
Speaker 1: but I'm twenty seven books in the game, mofo. I've
Speaker 1: done my work. It doesn't mean that you have to
Speaker 1: agree with what I say, but be respectful for what
Speaker 1: I do and acknowledge that. And so On Twitter, you know,
Speaker 1: we have these Twitter you know, battles, and we got
Speaker 1: these digital warriors who are talking trash and being nasty
Speaker 1: and calling your names. Do we have to do that?
Speaker 1: Can we respect the integrity of each other and say
Speaker 1: we're in a pitched battle where trying to figure out
Speaker 1: the best way to go, and let's treat each other
Speaker 1: with fundamental love and respect.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the dim witted doappo ganger.
Speaker 1: Love that phrase. Wow, Yes, he is a dem witted
Speaker 1: doppo ganger. Uh he is an autocratic in our guard.
Speaker 1: We're talking about Donald Trump, a foolish fascist. For that matter,
Speaker 1: you talking about JD Vance But you know Jay, I mean,
Speaker 1: what's up a JD Right? First of all, you give
Speaker 1: an ivy league a bad name. Bro, you went to Yale. Uh,
Speaker 1: you got more reason to have high intelligence than that.
Speaker 1: Uh he is, he is in himself a dim witted
Speaker 1: dappo ganger of Donald Trump. Because you know better not
Speaker 1: the the the erosion of JD. Vance over the last
Speaker 1: three or four years. You know, not only are you
Speaker 1: being supported by Peter Till and you know your whole
Speaker 1: uh senatorial career is old to one guy uh in
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley who believes in you and your right wing agenda.
Speaker 1: And you're deeply and profoundly the nativest xenophobic belief and
Speaker 1: passion merrit as you are to an Indian woman in
Speaker 1: America and initially you were saying, oh, yeah, she's not white.
Speaker 1: But why are you apologizing for your wife, bro, Because
Speaker 1: the side you're on is so racist that you have
Speaker 1: to then make an exception for the inclusion of your wife.
Speaker 1: That ought to tell you something. JD. Vance is a
Speaker 1: despicable reflection of cow towing and capitulating to a foolish
Speaker 1: fascist like Donald Trump, and his ability to be an
Speaker 1: echo chamber as opposed to a critical voice is disparaiting.
Speaker 1: But we are to call him for what he is,
Speaker 1: and he is joined with the enemy of the state.
Speaker 1: He has joined with an enemy of democracy, and we
Speaker 1: are to call him out for it.
Speaker 4: You know, your book also points out how the Finding
Speaker 4: Fathers didn't want everybody to vote. Could you talk about
Speaker 4: who couldn't yeh at the beginning of the nation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you said that, because people think, well,
Speaker 1: they came here, they're trying to flee Great Britain. You know,
Speaker 1: Taxation without representation Nah, sounds like DC, right, But the
Speaker 1: point is the Founding Fathers, like, we got to be
Speaker 1: real careful with that, because if you say everybody can vote,
Speaker 1: then them slaves can vote. Can't have that so we
Speaker 1: got to figure out a way to keep them out. Oh,
Speaker 1: we don't want the women running stuff. Got to figure
Speaker 1: out a way to keep them out. Oh, I get it.
Speaker 1: We'll say you have to be property owning. Now that
Speaker 1: excludes a whole bunch of white people too, white men.
Speaker 1: But we can keep it elite. We can keep it
Speaker 1: a nice little club that we control, because we don't
Speaker 1: want the unwashed masses to be able to determine and
Speaker 1: dictate what goes on in America. So initially, what did
Speaker 1: they do. They punted it. The federal government said, let's
Speaker 1: give it to the states. Right. Whoever is, you know
Speaker 1: in New Jersey, they can decide what they're doing. Who's
Speaker 1: in you know, Massachusetts, they can decide what they're doing.
Speaker 1: Who's in South Carolina, they can decide what they're doing.
Speaker 1: So they punted it to the states. And then you've
Speaker 1: heard of this thing called states rights. Right. That was
Speaker 1: a big thing during the Civil rights movement at its height,
Speaker 1: because they were saying, it's the state's rights. Forget the
Speaker 1: federal government telling us what we can and cannot do,
Speaker 1: imposing constraints upon us. You know, when George Wallace, the
Speaker 1: governor of Alabama stood in the door and kept those
Speaker 1: negroes from entering the University of Alabama. Forget the federal government,
Speaker 1: it's the state, and Alabama says they cannot come in.
Speaker 1: So that's what's set up by the federal government because
Speaker 1: they said the founding fithers, we don't want us dictating
Speaker 1: and determining what goes on in these states. For instance,
Speaker 1: in New Jersey, women could vote. Initially, right, that was
Speaker 1: the only state that allowed women to vote. They were
Speaker 1: first referring to they, which is not you know, neutral,
Speaker 1: Then they said he or she, which is pretty progressive
Speaker 1: when you think about women voting. But then decades later
Speaker 1: they even rejected the possibility of women voting in Jersey.
Speaker 1: In some states, black people could vote, then they couldn't vote.
Speaker 1: So there was a hodgepodge and a mismash mismash of
Speaker 1: you know, constitutional declarations independently of these states that allowed
Speaker 1: them to have wildly varying degrees of support overall. In all,
Speaker 1: the founding Fablers weren't the kind of you know, rich,
Speaker 1: richly supportive democrats, small d that were able to say
Speaker 1: we want everybody to be able to vote, and that
Speaker 1: kind of misunderstanding. It's just like when when I hear
Speaker 1: conservatives say, well, we're a Christian nation, No we ain't.
Speaker 1: Bro South Africa is one of the rare ones that
Speaker 1: claims to be explicitly a Christian nation. You see how
Speaker 1: that turned out. So when they say this is a
Speaker 1: Christian nation, Thomas Jefferson ain't believing in the Bible the
Speaker 1: same way you do Ralph Reid or Jerry Folwell, it's
Speaker 1: a different Bible. The first thing Thomas Jefferson did when
Speaker 1: he got the Bible he cut all the miracles out
Speaker 1: because he wanted to be empirical. He left Smokey Robinson though,
Speaker 1: okay anyway, so not to not to not come on, man,
Speaker 1: come on with it. So he cut the miracles out.
Speaker 1: He wanted only things that could be empirically verifiable. So boom,
Speaker 1: that's gone. Y'all ain't believing in that. They were what
Speaker 1: they call mechanistic deists. That means God wound the world up,
Speaker 1: put it in order, and let it go on its own.
Speaker 1: So when Albert Einstein years later, when he's debating Werner
Speaker 1: Heisenberg and about you know, theories of physics, Einstein believed
Speaker 1: in the you know, that there's phenomena that you could
Speaker 1: specifically note where it is. Heisenberg said, now it's an
Speaker 1: uncertainty principle. We don't quite know where it is. We're
Speaker 1: trying to figure it out. It's approximately here. I said God.
Speaker 1: Einstein said, God does not play dice with the universe.
Speaker 1: So what he meant by God was you know, Einstein
Speaker 1: was an atheist. He meant the structure of the universe
Speaker 1: natural law. So I'm saying all that to say, when
Speaker 1: y'all be saying this is a Christian nation and has
Speaker 1: founded upon these principles, stop lying. Do your homework. It
Speaker 1: was far more complicated and nuanced than we believed, and
Speaker 1: they believed in the different kind of God than we
Speaker 1: believe in. Now, same with democracy. They were not for
Speaker 1: everybody participating. But the genius of those documents, the Declaration
Speaker 1: of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights is that
Speaker 1: we could take what they said and use it for
Speaker 1: our advantage, because we could expand democracy to the parameters
Speaker 1: that they claimed to want to do but never did.
Speaker 1: That's the beauty of our country.
Speaker 5: Speaking of everybody not participating, I know you were like
Speaker 5: a big proponent of Beyonce, and you know you saw
Speaker 5: what just recently happening, what happened with her in the CMAS.
Speaker 5: And you know we don't I mean we don't. We
Speaker 5: participate in that arena, but we never get our just
Speaker 5: due ever there.
Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 5: So her dad has come out and said, of course
Speaker 5: race played a factor, like that's the obvious conversation around it,
Speaker 5: because Cowboy Carters. She had a huge year, right, she
Speaker 5: made history, did you know what I mean? So, what's
Speaker 5: your take on Beyonce and the CMAS?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, come on, man, I mean,
Speaker 1: just in terms of the merits alone, forget the issues
Speaker 1: of race, gender, class. Just on the issue of the
Speaker 1: merits alone. The album itself is a document of country music.
Speaker 1: Was beautiful, brilliant and powerful, and she stretched the parameters
Speaker 1: of it. She got Dolly Partner on there, giving her
Speaker 1: a code sign. I mean, she did all the stuff
Speaker 1: you was supposed to do. She wearing the cowboy boots,
Speaker 1: she got the cowboy hat. You know, she's hanging out.
Speaker 1: She Texas, hold them. I mean, she making the music
Speaker 1: and she grew up in Houston, Texas. Y'all what y'all think?
Speaker 1: Of course, she loves country music. I grew up in Detroit.
Speaker 1: My daddy was from George and mama from Alabama. We
Speaker 1: listened to country music. Hey, good looking, what you got cooking?
Speaker 1: How's about cooking something up with me? Come on, man,
Speaker 1: I mean you know, I mean we would listening to
Speaker 1: that country music. Ray Charles putting it down. We're watching
Speaker 1: George Hamilton play, you know, the great, great country singer
Speaker 1: and who died in his early mid twenties. So the
Speaker 1: point is that we listened to country. We are country,
Speaker 1: We helped produce country. Country is like the white blues,
Speaker 1: and blues is like the black country. So there were
Speaker 1: similar traits, musical styles, signatures, cadences and the like. So
Speaker 1: Beyonce grew up with that ginguinely and now to be
Speaker 1: denied that, how well else you gonna say, But it's
Speaker 1: a racial segregation of a marketplace that they are seeking
Speaker 1: to undermine, that they are seeking to open up, that
Speaker 1: they're seeking the challenge. And look, I live in Nashville, Tennessee.
Speaker 1: I love country music. I'm down with it. I go
Speaker 1: to the CMA's my very dear friend Mia McNeil, who
Speaker 1: I had the chance to a performer wedding ceremony A
Speaker 1: brilliant advocate for DEI in country music is there. So
Speaker 1: they're making strives. But this right here is a black
Speaker 1: mark pun intended on country music, and they ought to
Speaker 1: be ashamed of themselves for denying the very means by
Speaker 1: which they could become even more popular. Think about it.
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson had to argue for his music to be
Speaker 1: played on MTV. Please, White establishment, allow me to save you.
Speaker 1: Allow me to come in and make videos that will
Speaker 1: revive your genre. And so at the same time, here
Speaker 1: what we got to acknowledge is that Beyonce brought a
Speaker 1: different audience to what's going on. Think about it. When
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift is at the NFL, they're embracing it. Let's
Speaker 1: show Taylor every two point seven seconds with her boyfriend
Speaker 1: and clapping and so on and so forth. So now
Speaker 1: Beyonce comes in, it's a different story. It's ball racism,
Speaker 1: it's bigotry. And Howard Thurmant said, the biggot is a
Speaker 1: person who makes an idol of his commitments. They've they've
Speaker 1: committed themselves to a narrow range of what is a
Speaker 1: popular and appropriate and I think it's shameful and they
Speaker 1: are to be called on it. For the racist that
Speaker 1: racism that that represents.
Speaker 4: And you know, I want to bought Vanderbilt. Got a
Speaker 4: salute Alice Randall. She wrote the book My Black Country.
Speaker 4: You know that talks to my homegirl from Detroit to
Speaker 4: my colleague, Music's past, present in future. Yes, black people's
Speaker 4: role in country music.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, I mean she is a brilliant She is
Speaker 1: the most brilliant exponent of black folk and country music.
Speaker 1: And that book is a remarkably terrifically eloquent exposition of
Speaker 1: what we've been through, what we've gone through. She's a
Speaker 1: songwriter as well, and a tremendous, tremendous writer. So I
Speaker 1: would encourage all of y'all to read that book.
Speaker 4: We got a couple more questions for you, because I
Speaker 4: know we got somebody else coming in. But you wrote
Speaker 4: a great article speaking of the vice president, Kamala Harris
Speaker 4: and racial politics, and you compared commulated Drake at certain levels.
Speaker 4: What were you trying to say in that piece, because
Speaker 4: you know, we want people to vote for the vice president.
Speaker 3: I don't know comparing to the Drake right now is
Speaker 3: the best way I watch people to do that.
Speaker 5: I watched that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead, all right, we'll see. Here's my point,
Speaker 1: break it down my life. You know what, we have
Speaker 1: been in exile light skinned black people since Wesley Snipes
Speaker 1: stabbed Christopher Williams in New Jack Citty.
Speaker 4: It's been a rough I'm not going to die one
Speaker 4: of my favorite moments.
Speaker 1: We've been hurting ever since. We were depending upon Steph
Speaker 1: Curry and Drake to bring us back, and it's been
Speaker 1: a setback in one way. But here's the point. To
Speaker 1: be serious. The song is one thing. Say what you
Speaker 1: will about they not like us, but as an argument,
Speaker 1: they not like us. Fifteen eighty two, twelve point five
Speaker 1: black people from Africa are dispersed across the North Atlantic,
Speaker 1: and the North Atlantic slave trade begins, and most people
Speaker 1: did not come to what we now know is the
Speaker 1: United States of America. They went to Brazil, they went
Speaker 1: to may Cole, they went to the Caribbean, and less
Speaker 1: than four hundred thousand came here. Number one, Why is
Speaker 1: that important? Because when we're talking about who's black and
Speaker 1: who's not, because you know, people debating me, we ain't
Speaker 1: telling you so stupid. Okay, you could say that, but
Speaker 1: I got my bona for days. You're so stupid. It's
Speaker 1: not about race and Drake, It's about culture. He's a
Speaker 1: culture vulture. Are you serious? Right now? What other black
Speaker 1: entertainer do you know has ever been called a culture
Speaker 1: vulture for experimenting in his own or her own music.
Speaker 1: That's number one. Number two, Drake grew up in Toronto,
Speaker 1: adopting different musical persona was indigenous to that particular region.
Speaker 1: Number two, Number three, A lot of black folk went
Speaker 1: to Canada when they were trying to escape the murderous
Speaker 1: privileges of whiteness in America where slaveocracy was established. So
Speaker 1: when you say Drake is illegitimate or not genuine because
Speaker 1: he doesn't like a Black American culture or doesn't embrace it,
Speaker 1: blackness is bigger than what happens in the United States
Speaker 1: of America. Kamala Harris, what did they say, She's got
Speaker 1: a fake accent? Sound familiar, Drake with those fake accents?
Speaker 1: This is what artists do. What did Jay Z say,
Speaker 1: we're all actors? De Niro in training? What did Fat
Speaker 1: Joe say? Ninety seven percent itself is made up? That's
Speaker 1: what artists do. We don't hold al pacino, Are you
Speaker 1: really a member of the mob. We don't do that too.
Speaker 1: Maybe Frank Sinatra. We gave him an exception, but there
Speaker 1: were many others who do this right. We don't say
Speaker 1: you have to live the life you sing about in
Speaker 1: your song, which is a great gospel song, beautif when
Speaker 1: Mahela Jackson is singing it, not so much when you're
Speaker 1: trying to act like what's on that film as you
Speaker 1: or what's in that booth as you. We make stuff up.
Speaker 1: That's what art does. That's what fiction writers do. That's
Speaker 1: what Tony Morrison does. Now. Tony Morrison's Beloved is based
Speaker 1: upon a real story Margaret Garner, right, who killed her
Speaker 1: own children and before I'll be a slave, I'll be
Speaker 1: buried in my grave and go home to my God
Speaker 1: and be free, or kill my own kids. But she
Speaker 1: fictionalized the expression of that idea. Why is it that
Speaker 1: Drake becomes the avatar and symbol of what is not
Speaker 1: genuine in blackness when it's your narrow conception of blackness
Speaker 1: that prohibits him from flourishing in many ways? So I
Speaker 1: got big arguments with that. Kamala Harris. They said the
Speaker 1: same thing about Drake as her. You got a fake accent.
Speaker 1: You went to Canada to go to school. Jade Vance
Speaker 1: has been on her about that, and then that you
Speaker 1: are not genuinely black in the way that other black
Speaker 1: people are. Blackness by definition is subversive. It undermines narrow categories.
Speaker 1: I spent most of my career arguing against people who
Speaker 1: are trying to impose narrow constraints upon on blackness. We
Speaker 1: are as big as our imaginations allow us to be.
Speaker 1: And I think this is one of the sorry moments
Speaker 1: within hip hop and black culture where Drake becomes automatically
Speaker 1: uh the the representative of what is inauthentic, and Kamala
Speaker 1: Harrison the same way, you ain't really black. She's not
Speaker 1: a real black woman. Even Donald Trump is trying to
Speaker 1: weigh in by saying she just turned black, like she
Speaker 1: had malaria or some of a disease and you know, leprosy,
Speaker 1: and that she became black. This is the kind of
Speaker 1: ignorance that we've got to confront.
Speaker 2: I would love to hear you take I notice has
Speaker 2: nothing to do with politics, but I love I love
Speaker 2: your thought process. The fact that Lil Wayne is not
Speaker 2: performing a super Bowl in New.
Speaker 1: Orleans, go yeah, that's uh. Look, I love Lil Wayne.
Speaker 1: I'd rather be underground pushing flowers than in the pigs
Speaker 1: shared souths. I hear you, bro, Look, I mean those
Speaker 1: decisions are are complicated in the nuance. Right. First of all,
Speaker 1: we just now got used to the fact that hip
Speaker 1: hop could even be part of the conversation. Thank you,
Speaker 1: I mean thank you Rock Nation, I mean jay Z. Now,
Speaker 1: now this ain't got nothing to do with that. But
Speaker 1: I was about to preach that sermon you were talking about.
Speaker 1: A couple three weeks ago. I get a text, bring
Speaker 1: back the glasses. So I said, it was this text
Speaker 1: to be and he says, I guess people feel the
Speaker 1: same way about my hair. Ha ha ha. So you
Speaker 1: know I'm wearing them, Jay, what's I'm here right now?
Speaker 1: Other people have been saying it too. Because I had
Speaker 1: cataract surgery, I didn't need glass anymore, but you know
Speaker 1: I was. Mike said, I didn't even know it was you.
Speaker 5: It's the look, it's a part of the look.
Speaker 3: It's the brand.
Speaker 1: See what I'm saying. So Jay, and then now you
Speaker 1: I'll come and keep wearing the glass. So the point
Speaker 1: is Jade knows what he's talking about. He understands what
Speaker 1: the deal is. So because of him, we even have
Speaker 1: an argument about whether it could be Wheezy or whether
Speaker 1: it be you know, Kendrick and so on. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: whoever the choice is, can't be bad. Hip hop is
Speaker 1: being represented now. Should Little Wayne be acknowledged as a
Speaker 1: denizen of New Orleans as one of the greatest artists
Speaker 1: we've ever produced? Absolutely, and who knows, maybe he'll bring
Speaker 1: Little Wayne on. But I think again, our privilege which
Speaker 1: creates a certain kind of opportunity here to argue about
Speaker 1: stuff that we didn't even have five years ago before
Speaker 1: got involved.
Speaker 3: That's an incredible point.
Speaker 1: Ain't nobody even had no conversation about hip hop and
Speaker 1: its presence? So I give grace and love to jay
Speaker 1: Z and continue to support that movement because it's all
Speaker 1: good for all of us. Even though I'm a Drake
Speaker 1: fan and I love Kendrick as well, I understand what
Speaker 1: that's about. But my defensive Drake doesn't mean I'm ignorant
Speaker 1: to the broader dimensions of hip hop culture and what
Speaker 1: jay Z is doing. And it's nothing short or remarkable
Speaker 1: when you think about it.
Speaker 4: The final question, give people a case as to why
Speaker 4: they should go out and vote for this election.
Speaker 3: Because everybody always says.
Speaker 4: Oh, this is the most consequential election of our lifetime.
Speaker 4: You know, if you know this election, this candidate is
Speaker 4: the threat to democracy, which I believe Trump is. Yes,
Speaker 4: But but why should people go out there and vote
Speaker 4: in this election?
Speaker 3: Why is this the most important election of our lifetime?
Speaker 1: It is? And thank you for saying that. That's a great,
Speaker 1: great point. It is because you know how they often
Speaker 1: say democracy is on the ballot, But it is right
Speaker 1: because the choice is pretty glaring. You've got a person
Speaker 1: who has undermined the very nature of what democracy is about.
Speaker 1: If democracy is we define in this book as people
Speaker 1: power and the ability of people to control and govern
Speaker 1: the institutions that regulate their lives, to be able to
Speaker 1: dictate the terms of their existence by full participation in
Speaker 1: American democracy, then we have to conclude this man is
Speaker 1: a danger and a threat to American democracy. Now, he
Speaker 1: tried to flip that by saying, this is why they
Speaker 1: attempted to assassinate me, because they have demonized me and
Speaker 1: painted me as a bete noir, as a horrible person
Speaker 1: for American democracy. But you are, sir, so I think
Speaker 1: it's right for us to acknowledge that in this election,
Speaker 1: we are choosing between that on the one hand, and
Speaker 1: a woman who is the representative of all that is
Speaker 1: great and good about America as a black and black
Speaker 1: women alread running stuff. They might as well run the countries, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, at the end of the day, without black women,
Speaker 1: where would we be, right, I wouldn't be here. Most
Speaker 1: of us wouldn't be here without a black woman and
Speaker 1: a black woman not only in terms of physically, but
Speaker 1: in terms of the mental approach. When I go to
Speaker 1: these places where they're supporting black men and how black
Speaker 1: men have been this, it's black women leading away. It's
Speaker 1: black women saying, give our men a chance, give our
Speaker 1: boys a chance. Black women are standing up for us
Speaker 1: in ways we don't stand up for them. Twenty years ago,
Speaker 1: twenty one years ago, I wrote a book called Why
Speaker 1: I Love Black Women. It wasn't no thing, it wasn't
Speaker 1: no black girl magic, it wasn't no black boy joy.
Speaker 1: I did it because I felt that it was necessary
Speaker 1: to celebrate black women because they were being dissedant, dismissed.
Speaker 1: And look, you can choose who you want as a
Speaker 1: life partner. If you and this microphone get along, I
Speaker 1: get it. Hey, I like you I like you too.
Speaker 3: Why do you like men?
Speaker 1: Because you amplify me. You're long and black, and you're assertive.
Speaker 1: I like that. Your brain is big, and I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: So my point is, y'all get down with the microphone
Speaker 1: and have micrats. I mean, go do your thing. My
Speaker 1: point is you love who loves you. And I ain't
Speaker 1: mad at that. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: there is no reason to demonize and stigmatize black women
Speaker 1: for the very strength that they possess that is necessary
Speaker 1: to push the race forward. We get mad when it's
Speaker 1: expressed at home. And I think, and I know this
Speaker 1: is controversial. I think some of the black men who
Speaker 1: are for Trump. Look, I know there are reasons for that,
Speaker 1: and I don't diss them, but some of this is
Speaker 1: straight up misogyny. Some of it is straight up patriarchy.
Speaker 1: And what's ironic to me is that some black men
Speaker 1: who don't want a woman being a pastor of their church,
Speaker 1: and trust me, I preach in these churches might now
Speaker 1: end up having a woman as president of the United
Speaker 1: States of America. Ain't that God in a pan souit
Speaker 1: in high heels, you know? And look, Barack Obama was
Speaker 1: Jackie Robinson. Jackie Robinon's great quality. He was a great ballplayer.
Speaker 1: He had tremendous skill, but his greatest skill was his
Speaker 1: ability to endure white supremacy and give it a licking
Speaker 1: while he kept doing what he's doing, kept doing what
Speaker 1: he was doing without being angry.
Speaker 5: Or resentful to the point I wanted you to get
Speaker 5: to go ahead, right.
Speaker 1: I think Kamala Harris is Willy Mays. Willie Mays came
Speaker 1: along a few years after Jackie Robinson, equally talented, really,
Speaker 1: let's be real, far more talented, and had a joy
Speaker 1: what they call a joa devive. He had a joyfulness
Speaker 1: about and a confidence. But that confidence that Willie Mays
Speaker 1: could express even though he was subject to the arbitrary
Speaker 1: women caprice of white supremacy and segregation, but he was
Speaker 1: freer because of the sacrifice of Jackie Robinson. So the
Speaker 1: joy of Kamala Harris grows from the hope of Barack Obama.
Speaker 1: Because Barack Obama had hope. Now Kamala Harris can have joy.
Speaker 1: And she is Willie Mays in high heels and she's
Speaker 1: stepping and I continue to support and love that woman
Speaker 1: because she represents the best of who we.
Speaker 3: Are, Michael Eric Dice, Ladies and gentlemen, that's right.
Speaker 4: Represent the unfinished fight for the vote is available everywhere
Speaker 4: you buy books right now.
Speaker 3: That's right, and we appreciate you for joining us this morning.
Speaker 1: Love y'all, keep doing the great work. That's right. It's
Speaker 1: the Breakfast Club.
Speaker 3: It's Michael Eric Dice.
Speaker 1: Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club.