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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff I never told you a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeart Radio, and today we are thrilled to be

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Speaker 2: joined by calumnist and associate editor at The Boston Globe

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Speaker 2: and now podcaster Shirley Long. Welcome. Hi, We're so excited

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Speaker 2: to have you.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we were just having a conversation about technology and weather.

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Speaker 2: This is typical for all to start recording.

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Speaker 3: I'm getting Atlanta weather up here in Boston.

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Speaker 2: We are not used to it. I mean one of

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Speaker 2: the things working from home. Honestly, we're not really used

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Speaker 2: to Atlanta weather either. But my closet gets really hot

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Speaker 2: and I can't have the AC running because it interferes

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Speaker 2: with the audio. So I had to come up with

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Speaker 2: some pretty creative ways to cool down.

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Speaker 3: How do you do that? Do you put ice on

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Speaker 3: the floor?

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Speaker 2: Ice packs? Oh?

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Speaker 3: Really? Yes?

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Speaker 2: I'm also embarrassed to say I don't do this, but

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Speaker 2: I did used to. You can put underwear in the freezer,

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Speaker 2: and then where.

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Speaker 3: An I don't we know each other enough to say

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Speaker 3: that I'm going to break some ice right here?

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Speaker 1: We are now offering all.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, when you bring it underwear.

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Speaker 2: I'm just you know, I feel like we're gonna be friends.

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Speaker 1: So laid out there and needs you to know random

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Speaker 1: fact about her.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I don't do it anymore, but I did try it.

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Speaker 1: It did work, did it?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 4: I have so many questions, but I don't feel like

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Speaker 4: this is the appropriate episode.

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Speaker 2: We'll come back well, yeah, later later and underly to that,

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Speaker 2: we are having a conversation about women. Well, I guess

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Speaker 2: kind of related women in work and burnouts and things

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Speaker 2: related to that. But first, Shirley, could you introduce yourself

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Speaker 2: to our audience.

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Speaker 3: So my name is Shirley Lung and I have been

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Speaker 3: a journalist for twenty years at the Boston Globe. I've

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Speaker 3: done a little bit of everything. I've been a reporter,

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Speaker 3: I've been an editor, and now I'm a columnist and

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Speaker 3: a podcast host. My podcast is just turning one, so

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Speaker 3: I'm a podcast baby compared to you guys. And then

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Speaker 3: the podcast is called Say More. And I launched a

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Speaker 3: column a little more than a decade ago because I

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Speaker 3: wanted to shine a spotlight on the lack of women

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Speaker 3: in corporate boardrooms. And I just figured that if you

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Speaker 3: could write it with when I say a column, I

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Speaker 3: can I can have an opinion, right, So I felt

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Speaker 3: like with an opinion voice, having a voice in a

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Speaker 3: column writing about a topic like that, I could get

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Speaker 3: a lot more done. And of course, if you think

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Speaker 3: about a dozen years ago, not a lot of people

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Speaker 3: were talking about this topic, and of course today everybody

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Speaker 3: is talking about, you know, the lack of women in boardrooms,

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Speaker 3: the lack of women in leadership. So I kind of

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Speaker 3: hit it at the right moment writing about that topic

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Speaker 3: and I've brought it into diversity in the workplace. And

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Speaker 3: my podcast is I Interviews. It's a weekly podcast and

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Speaker 3: interview guests in and around Boston about their ideas because

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Speaker 3: you know, we're Boston's known for our big ideas for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and we do want to talk about the podcast definitely,

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Speaker 2: and congratulations on your year anniversary, thank you. But before

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Speaker 2: we talk about that, I I was wondering if you

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Speaker 2: could tell us because I was listening to some interviews

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Speaker 2: with you about how you got into journalism and then

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Speaker 2: how you kind of transitioned into editing and then now podcasting.

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Speaker 2: And it's a long time interest that you've had of

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Speaker 2: telling stories.

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Speaker 3: Correct, Yes, So I have been writing and being a

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Speaker 3: journalist since I was like fifteen or sixteen years old

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Speaker 3: in high school, and I kind of just really curious

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Speaker 3: about the world. Though frankly, in the beginning, I thought

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Speaker 3: it was really cool to see my name in print,

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Speaker 3: to see my byline, and so I was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: this is so cool. And I thought it was really

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Speaker 3: cool to interview the high school principal and grill him.

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Speaker 3: And then and you know, so I did it in

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Speaker 3: high school, and then I went to college and I

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Speaker 3: didn't and I wrote for the college paper, and and

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Speaker 3: then I was thinking, oh, I got to find a

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Speaker 3: summer job, and then I just applied for a summer internship,

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Speaker 3: and I kind of just stuck with journalism by accident,

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Speaker 3: you know. And I but I've loved it. I've been

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Speaker 3: able to see much of the country. I grew up

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Speaker 3: outside of Baltimore in Maryland, and I did an internship

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Speaker 3: in New Orleans at the New Orleans Times picky un

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Speaker 3: and then I went to Chicago the Chicago Tribune, and

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Speaker 3: I've worked for the Wall Street Journal in Los Angeles

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Speaker 3: and in Chicago, and then I've been in Boston for

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Speaker 3: twenty years. And I love I've been the business editor

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Speaker 3: at the Globe and I managed people, and then i've

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Speaker 3: was an interim editorial page editor as well. But I

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Speaker 3: really love writing columns. I love having an opinion. I

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Speaker 3: actually didn't think I would like column writing. If you

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Speaker 3: guys have a little time, I have a funny story

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Speaker 3: about how I became a columnist. I was the business

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Speaker 3: edit at the Globe at the time, and the new

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Speaker 3: editor of the Globe at the time wanted another business columnists,

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Speaker 3: and so I was in charge of the search to

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Speaker 3: hire another business columnist for the Globe. And I looked around.

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Speaker 3: I didn't really follow columnists at the time, and so

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Speaker 3: I decided I read a lot of people. I you know,

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Speaker 3: after a few months, I kind of gave up. I

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Speaker 3: couldn't find anyone. And then one day I said to myself,

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Speaker 3: I said, you know what, I think I could do it.

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Speaker 3: You know, I know all the players in town I have.

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Speaker 3: I think I could, you know, if asked, I think

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Speaker 3: I could have an opinion on something. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: like to say I I pulled a Dick Cheney, right.

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Speaker 3: I was in charge of the search.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad that I.

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Speaker 3: Was charged with that. I appointed myself and so and

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Speaker 3: it's been a great experience. I mean, one of the

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Speaker 3: reasons I decided, even though I love being a manager

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Speaker 3: and I loved editing, they're not a lot of female

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Speaker 3: Asian like journalists columnists. I mean, I knew if I

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Speaker 3: did it, you could probably count the number of Asian

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Speaker 3: women writing columns in the US on one hand. And

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Speaker 3: so and I still think there's only still probably a

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Speaker 3: half a dozen of us at the major papers. And

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Speaker 3: so I just knew that it would. It's a voice

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Speaker 3: that needed to be out there. And and I'm just

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Speaker 3: glad that the you know, my editors at the Globe

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Speaker 3: agreed with me. And so I've been doing this now

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Speaker 3: for you know, almost almost twelve years now.

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Speaker 4: Which is awesome. And Yeah, Honestly, when you look at

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Speaker 4: for any field, including podcasting, the amount of Asian women

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Speaker 4: that are in hosts are so low, so low. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: Like for women host in general, for podcasting is ridiculously slow,

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Speaker 4: especially compared to the amount of women who actually listen

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Speaker 4: to the podcast I make up the own I did it, significantly.

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Speaker 1: Lower than you would think.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and then when you look at and you like

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Speaker 4: put into Asian podcasters, I'm like, hey, welcome, welcome to

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Speaker 4: the family.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad to see you your show.

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Speaker 3: I know, you know there's there's a you know there's

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Speaker 3: a trade group, right, there's like an Asian podcasting trade group.

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Speaker 3: You know that. I guess I get it. Yeah, I'll

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Speaker 3: I just I just found out about them a year ago.

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Speaker 3: It's like, okay, there's enough of us. I think there's

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Speaker 3: a few hundred.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so I saw.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if we're talking about the same one,

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Speaker 4: because I I am a member of a group that

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Speaker 4: I silently watched from afar like about like they do

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Speaker 4: like meetings and awards of like yes, yes, let's do.

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Speaker 1: This, so I do. We will have destroy secrets later.

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Speaker 3: So I spent most of my career in print, and

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Speaker 3: then when I launched the column, I decided that I

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Speaker 3: wanted to be multi platform. I wanted to go on TV.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to do radio, and because the media market

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Speaker 3: is so fractured now, to have true impact, you need

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Speaker 3: to go on multiple platforms. And so a decade ago

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Speaker 3: I started as a weekly guest on our local NPR

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Speaker 3: station here in Boston GBH. And so I'm a weekly

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Speaker 3: guest on a very popular radio show called Boston Public Radio.

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Speaker 3: And so I'm on for half an hour, I talk

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Speaker 3: about my columns. I talk about business stories and topics.

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Speaker 3: And so that's really how I got interested in audio.

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Speaker 3: And then in the last few years, I was thinking, oh,

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Speaker 3: I'd love to do a podcast. And I have to

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Speaker 3: say I was not a podcast listener, you know, until

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Speaker 3: the pandemic. And so I when we were all working

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Speaker 3: from home, trapped at home, I you know, began walking

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Speaker 3: the dog in the afternoon. That was my you know,

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Speaker 3: assignment my husband usually did. But now I was like, no,

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Speaker 3: I need to get out of the house. I need

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Speaker 3: to get away from a commuter. I'm going to walk

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Speaker 3: the dog. And that's when I started listening to podcasts,

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Speaker 3: and I really enjoyed them. And so and and as

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Speaker 3: you know, a lot of print journalists now are doing podcasts,

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Speaker 3: and so they're kind of making that leap. And so

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Speaker 3: it's it's been It's hard, though. It's hard to build

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Speaker 3: an audience. I really I don't know how you guys

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Speaker 3: do it. I mean, it's kudos to you for for

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Speaker 3: building an audience. I mean that is so hard to do,

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Speaker 3: especially when you're not part of like a big network.

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Speaker 3: You know, you're kind of doing it on your own.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you you are, but like you know what

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Speaker 3: I'm saying, like it's your startup. You know, that's hard, right,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 4: I will say we were very bless the guests, fortunate

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Speaker 4: to have people who already created that base for us

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Speaker 4: who one of them, Caroline was from the print journalism

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Speaker 4: world as well as she was from a small newspaper,

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Speaker 4: jumped into podcasting as well. So right along with you,

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Speaker 4: I do have to ask, what do you see as

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Speaker 4: some of the big differences and or better or good

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Speaker 4: coming from print to podcasting.

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Speaker 3: I mean, they're so different, you know. And I've learned

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Speaker 3: so much working with my producer over the past year.

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Speaker 3: And you know, the questions I asked as a journalist

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Speaker 3: I was told very early on surely the questions you're

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Speaker 3: asking these are print journalists questions you were aiming to

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Speaker 3: get information out of people. That's not the purpose of

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Speaker 3: the podcast. You want to ask questions to get your

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Speaker 3: guests to tell stories, to kind of exhibit emotion, you know,

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Speaker 3: And you're not looking for answers all the time. And

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Speaker 3: so it's you got to find that right mix, you know.

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Speaker 3: And so and so it's it's been really eye opening

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Speaker 3: to to kind of go to to see what are

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Speaker 3: good print questions and what are good podcast questions.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't know what print questions look like because I've

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Speaker 4: never been in the Like that's such a different look

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Speaker 4: and like what you're talking about and how you like

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Speaker 4: go forward things. I'm also very not great at writing,

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Speaker 4: so it's a good thing, like like, we'll just keep

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Speaker 4: it there. I'm obviously more a podcaster.

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Speaker 1: And he just puts her head down just saying, but

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Speaker 1: no comment as an actual writer. I'll give her that.

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Speaker 1: Like she does write a book to we did. We

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Speaker 1: had a lot of help. I had a lot of help.

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Speaker 2: You can get it wherever.

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Speaker 4: But even with the books, that's different from actual doing

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Speaker 4: media and doing like newspaper articles in columns.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's such a different world.

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Speaker 3: It is different. It's very dirt, and I still feel

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Speaker 3: my comfort zone is still writing. I mean, the one

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Speaker 3: thing about doing the podcast it takes away from you know,

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Speaker 3: writing more columns, and there's so many topics to write

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Speaker 3: about and in Boston, and so I miss that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, speaking of can you kind of talk to us

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Speaker 4: about this podcast? About your one year old podcast?

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Speaker 3: So we did this four part series on Burnout called

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Speaker 3: Beating burnout, And it started out as I was just

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Speaker 3: when I think of myself right now, coming out of

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Speaker 3: the pandemic, I've been on this kind of I know,

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Speaker 3: it's like a two year quest to kind of feel

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Speaker 3: like my old self. And now that we're four years

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Speaker 3: out of the beginning of the pandemic, I'm like, maybe

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Speaker 3: maybe I can never get back to being my old self.

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Speaker 3: But how do I get a little closer? And something

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Speaker 3: changed for me and I can't quite put my finger

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Speaker 3: on it. And I just remember in twenty twenty, you know,

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Speaker 3: we're all working from home. I was on deadline a lot.

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Speaker 3: You know, my kids were home from school or in Massachusetts,

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Speaker 3: a lot of the school systems. By the fall of

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty, they were on this crazy hybrid system. You know.

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Speaker 3: They would go to school for two hours Monday Wednesday,

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Speaker 3: like Friday, in the morning, and then on Tuesday, Thursday,

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Speaker 3: they'd go in the afternoon for two hours. And I mean,

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Speaker 3: you needed like a I don't know, it was like

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Speaker 3: a part time job, just keeping crack of their schedules,

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Speaker 3: you know. And meanwhile, I actually set my column aside

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Speaker 3: and told my editors, you know, very early on the

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Speaker 3: pandemics like, I don't think people want to know my

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Speaker 3: opinion right now. I think you need help covering the news.

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Speaker 3: And so I said I because as much as as

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Speaker 3: COVID was a public health crisis, it was also an

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Speaker 3: economic crisis, you know, my wheelhouse's business reporting, and so

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Speaker 3: I ended up writing about all the jobs that were

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Speaker 3: lost and all the restaurants that were closed, and then

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Speaker 3: and then after they were closed, they had all the

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Speaker 3: reopening and so it was a you know, one of

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Speaker 3: the probably the biggest news story of my career, and

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Speaker 3: so it was so busy. I just remember it was

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Speaker 3: I just remember by the fall of twenty twenty, I

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Speaker 3: was I was pretty burnt out. And that was a

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Speaker 3: time when and when you're at work you actually started

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Speaker 3: maybe before you never told your bosses you were burnt out,

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Speaker 3: but now it was okay. It was okay and actually

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Speaker 3: welcomed that you say you're burned out, because everybody's going

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Speaker 3: through the same thing. And so I did this series

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Speaker 3: to figure out how do I get back to feeling

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Speaker 3: like work isn't worked anymore? And that that was kind

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Speaker 3: of my north star to figure that out. And so

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Speaker 3: that's why we launched this series. We talked to a

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Speaker 3: Harvard Medical School doctor. We talked to Cal Newport, who's

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Speaker 3: a productivity expert. We talked to Christa Tibbett, who's a

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Speaker 3: host of On Being. And then there's another local person

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Speaker 3: who lives in Western mass Emily Nagalski, who's uh, she

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Speaker 3: was interesting. She's a she's a sex educator. Then she

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Speaker 3: became a burnout expert. And how that came to be

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Speaker 3: is that when she wrote her first book on sex,

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Speaker 3: you know her her whole thing is helping women feel

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Speaker 3: more confident about their bodies. And so she's on her

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Speaker 3: book tour and she said the number one topic when

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Speaker 3: she went on our book tour is people were saying,

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Speaker 3: you know that chapter you wrote about burnout, the relationship

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Speaker 3: between sex and burnout, and that that was the most

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Speaker 3: important chapter of the book for many of her readers.

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Speaker 3: And so she just knew that there was there was

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Speaker 3: a good topic here, and so she ended up writing

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Speaker 3: a book with her sister about burnout.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you have so many fascinating guests on the show,

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Speaker 2: and I do want to come back to some of

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Speaker 2: the things that you specifically look into in episodes, and

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Speaker 2: also more about burnout obviously, but a couple of things

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Speaker 2: before we get into this. One of the things I

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Speaker 2: thought was interesting when I was researching this, reading into this,

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Speaker 2: was that you talk about the stress paradox, which I

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Speaker 2: find fascinating, and especially during the pandemic when a lot

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Speaker 2: of us were isolated in one way or another, Can

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Speaker 2: you describe what that is?

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Speaker 3: Please? So the stress paradox is this idea that everybody

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Speaker 3: is stressed out, right, but nobody wants to admit it, right,

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Speaker 3: But I think during the pandemic it was okay, you know,

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Speaker 3: it was and because everybody was going through it, you know,

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Speaker 3: the CEOs down to the rank and file workers, and

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Speaker 3: if you think about COVID, was this collective experience that

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Speaker 3: we all had and unless you were one hundred years old,

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Speaker 3: you never experienced it before, right, And so it was

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Speaker 3: all uncharted territory for so many people. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: in the beginning, I think it was very isolating, right,

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Speaker 3: that everybody goes through it was very isolating. But I

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Speaker 3: think towards towards you know, maybe you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: by the end of twenty twenty, it was okay to

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Speaker 3: talk about it. It's okay to talk about how stressed

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Speaker 3: out and burnt out. We all were during the COVID

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Speaker 3: and employers were doing something about it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it is interesting how it's become just accepted. Like

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Speaker 2: a lot of times when we all start a podcast now,

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Speaker 2: we'll say, oh, how are you, and the other person

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Speaker 2: will beel like, eh.

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Speaker 3: I know it's this block, this feeling block, right, I

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Speaker 3: mean I feel better after going through this, you know,

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Speaker 3: burnout series. I actually use a lot of tips, you know,

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Speaker 3: to help me get rid of the blas or at

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Speaker 3: least understand the blaus. That almost makes me feel better

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Speaker 3: about the blog.

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Speaker 1: Right, you know.

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Speaker 4: I find it fascinating when you were talking about trying

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Speaker 4: to get back to your old self pre COVID, pre lockdown,

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Speaker 4: because for me and I think Anny and are we

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Speaker 4: talk about this all the time, especially because when we

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Speaker 4: go out and doing things with groups and such, I

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Speaker 4: am naturally an introvert. But then going through the pandemic,

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Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, I'm retreating into myself and never

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Speaker 4: want to come out again, and doing so causes me

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Speaker 4: social anxiety or just pure out anxiety. And for me,

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Speaker 4: my head is like this is the new norm for me,

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Speaker 4: as well as the fact of like maybe this is

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Speaker 4: part of aging. Maybe this is me, you know, going

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Speaker 4: into my whatever next steps in life is, but never

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Speaker 4: really considering that there's a possibility of trying to get

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Speaker 4: back to pre pandemic. So I find this concept very interesting.

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Speaker 4: Did you have a lot of discussions and have you

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Speaker 4: felt like you've gotten closer to that pre person?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I feel like I have adjusted my expectation.

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, I would say twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, even twenty twenty three is like, how

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Speaker 3: do I get back to my old self? And now

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking, I don't think I can go back to

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Speaker 3: that kind of my old self, at least not every day.

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Speaker 3: Maybe there'll be some day, there will be days I

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Speaker 3: feel like that. But Samantha, I also think a lot

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Speaker 3: about the pandemic changed me, changed my view, you know,

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Speaker 3: and it is you know, I mean, I'm getting older.

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Speaker 3: I saw a lot of death. I saw a lot

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Speaker 3: of you know, and also you know, I saw a

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Speaker 3: lot of people retiring and doing something completely different with

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Speaker 3: their lives. And so I think, I think I'm you know,

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Speaker 3: and my kids they're getting older, you know, they're I'm

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Speaker 3: an eleven year old and thirteen year old now and

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Speaker 3: so now I can imagine them at an age where

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Speaker 3: they're not here with me anymore, you know, they're out

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Speaker 3: of the house. So I'm very more mindful that these

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Speaker 3: are incredibly stressful time to be a working parent. But

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Speaker 3: these these days won't last. These days will go by

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Speaker 3: really fast, and I will miss my my crazy, chaotic

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Speaker 3: working mom life, you know. And so I'm trying to

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Speaker 3: kind of soak it all in and enjoy it. And

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Speaker 3: I'm and I'm trying to find the right balance and

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Speaker 3: and and Samantha, I'm so glad you brought this idea

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Speaker 3: of because I feel like my I used to go

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Speaker 3: out to a lot of events. I like talking to people,

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Speaker 3: but now it's kind of exhausting.

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Speaker 4: That's exactly what we ex slayed, Like, what what happened?

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Speaker 4: Now We're all struggling conversation face to face?

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Speaker 3: Right, I was like, I got I got to put

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Speaker 3: on makeup, I got to put on real clothes, I

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Speaker 3: got to leave the house.

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Speaker 1: I'll have to show a shy I guess I have to.

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Speaker 3: I was like, what, So now it's like, oh, wow,

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Speaker 3: this is so much work, and so it's it's it's

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Speaker 3: it's hard. It's hard to get out. And one of

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Speaker 3: the things I also noticed is that, uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: when I go to the office. Now, you know we

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Speaker 3: our policy at the Globe is three days. They would

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Speaker 3: like people to be in the office three days a week.

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Speaker 3: And that's actually, you know, pretty good. You know a lot.

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Speaker 3: When you go to other workplaces, sometimes it's only you know,

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Speaker 3: it's pretty empty. But when you go into the Globe newsroom,

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Speaker 3: it's it's actually it feels busy. But when I go

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Speaker 3: to the Globe newsroom, now, I mean I can't work.

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Speaker 3: I mean people are talking to me. It's like, why

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Speaker 3: are you talking to me? I need to work. You know,

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Speaker 3: I can't concentrate anymore. Yesterday I was trying. So I

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Speaker 3: try when I used to be able to sit in

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Speaker 3: the office and write stories, and now I try to

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Speaker 3: write at home because I need utter full concentration. But yesterday,

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Speaker 3: but sometimes you can't avoid that. Yesterday I was on deadline.

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Speaker 3: I had to write in the office, and so I

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Speaker 3: had my air pods on, and then on top of

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Speaker 3: my air pods, I had my noise canceling all things,

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Speaker 3: and people were still trying to talk to me.

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Speaker 1: You need like a don't disturb sign.

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Speaker 4: I do.

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Speaker 3: Oh police did. That's a good idea. Someone said I

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Speaker 3: should put up like because I also sit I recently

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Speaker 3: got moved at the office, and I sit in a

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Speaker 3: high traffic corridor. So I think I might read a

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Speaker 3: whole column about that. Do you have any advice if

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Speaker 3: you if you mean, I mean, it's like, it's like

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Speaker 3: I feel like I mean, I feel like I'm in

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Speaker 3: like Times Square, you know. I think there's so many

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Speaker 3: people talking to me and walking around and so. And

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Speaker 3: someone said I should put like like screens up right,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, or a wall of plants, tall plants.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I feel like in the jungle in

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Speaker 1: a resort exactly. That's even better.

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Speaker 3: So it's very hard. So that's also very confusing to

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Speaker 3: me because I'm supposed to be in the office. I'm

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Speaker 3: supposed to be working and concentrating, and I can't always

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Speaker 3: do my best work when I'm in the office. It's like, well,

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Speaker 3: that's so that's so strange to me.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, before we moved offices pre pandemic, the office was

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Speaker 4: for our podcasters, all the podcast people. It was open concept,

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Speaker 4: but everybody had their own stations.

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Speaker 1: But it was so quiet.

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Speaker 4: It was one of the quietest places I'd ever entered

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Speaker 4: in my life that I was unnerving that I just

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Speaker 4: looked around and all you could do.

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Speaker 1: He was clickti clack, and it would be full. Everybody

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Speaker 1: would be there.

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Speaker 4: But I was like, really, they know, they know how

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Speaker 4: to work the Wow.

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Speaker 3: I love that click clack. That's now.

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Speaker 4: I did have another question, because you specifically have this

436
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 4: understanding of what it is to have children in school

437
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 4: during the pandemic as well as a full time, very

438
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 4: demanding job. How did you balance all of that Because

439
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 4: one of the things that we had talked about soon

440
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 4: after we were releasing episodes about the pandemic was the

441
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 4: amount of women who had so much on their plate

442
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 4: that they ended up having to give up something in

443
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 4: order to balance everything out, and then feeling so burnt

444
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 4: out because of that, and or also unfulfilled because of

445
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 4: having to let something go. For you, as someone who's

446
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 4: pretty much in high demand in your field, what was

447
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 4: that like working through that. How did you survive without

448
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 4: burning out? Or if you did, how did you survive that?

449
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 3: I mean, when I look back, it's like, I don't

450
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 3: know how I survived that area. I just remember, I

451
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 3: tell this story I had a colleague who was teaching

452
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 3: a journals some class, and she asked me to speak

453
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 3: to her class and we were talking about, you know,

454
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 3: working during the pandemic and I and then her journals

455
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,719
Speaker 3: students had to write, you know, a story off of

456
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 3: you know, my presentation or my talk to the class.

457
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 3: And she said, everybody started with the same lead, which is,

458
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 3: you know, the lead is the first graph or the

459
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 3: first anecdote. And I told this story about how is

460
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 3: you know? I was. I was on deadline yet again

461
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 3: for another page one story. And it's like five o'clock

462
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 3: and one of my kids comes up and he's probably

463
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 3: like I don't know seven. He's like, I'm hungry, mom,

464
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I'm on deadline. My editor has said,

465
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 3: you know, he needs the story. Now I'm like shoving

466
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 3: potato ships in his face. It's like, I was like,

467
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 3: you're like, why are you hungry? Oh wait, it's dinner

468
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 3: time here, just ampet ships. And so I think I

469
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 3: scared a couple of people away from from becoming a journalist.

470
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 3: But yeah, you just I mean, part of the sacrifice

471
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,239
Speaker 3: was your family, you know, And I mean it was

472
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 3: it was I didn't you know, I even though my

473
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 3: kids were we were all home together. I didn't spend

474
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 3: as much time quality time with my kids because I

475
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 3: was working a lot. Though the upside was we always

476
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 3: had dinner together, I mean most nights of the week

477
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 3: because the restaurants were closed, you didn't go out, so

478
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 3: at least we had, you know, dinner, dinner more times

479
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 3: you know, at home together than I could ever remember.

480
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 3: And so but it was it was hard, and you know,

481
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: and I'm just glad that by the end of twenty

482
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 3: twenty I recognized that I could not I something needed

483
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 3: to change. I you know, I would say by twenty

484
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 3: twenty one, I took more breaks during the day. I

485
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 3: took more walks. I mean I do. I didn't used to.

486
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 3: You know how many steps I have? I mean now

487
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 3: I make sure I have ten thousand steps a day,

488
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 3: you know, because that can be hard to do if

489
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 3: you're working from home. And now through this burnout series,

490
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 3: I'm learning to breathe more. I'm learning to slow down.

491
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 3: I think that's been the next phase, and I'm learning

492
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 3: to I mean, one of the things I learned is

493
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 3: that what the doctors call a new kind of burnout

494
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 3: that's happening from all this from the pandemic and from

495
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 3: working from home. I mean it used to be. The

496
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 3: classic symptoms of burnout used to be, you know, you're exhausted,

497
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 3: you can't get out of bed, you don't feel like

498
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 3: working right, you're tired. The new burnout is you can't

499
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 3: disconnect from work. You are on all the time, whether

500
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 3: it's your phone, your laptop, Slack, texts, Facebook, you just

501
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 3: can't disconnect. You are on your your mind is going

502
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 3: twenty four to seven. And if you about the tech companies,

503
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 3: they've designed their software, they've designed their hardware to make

504
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 3: you addicted. And so you have to be mindful of that,

505
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 3: especially those of us who are working from home more

506
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 3: days than going into the office or leaving their homes.

507
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: So some of that advice because we need to might

508
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: really too hard for that one speaking too lovely.

509
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 3: But should you guys both work from home full time? Yes?

510
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 4: And because we are podcasters who have five to six

511
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 4: episodes a week that we have to be constantly on.

512
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 4: When we don't watch anything for fun, we watch it

513
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 4: to be like, oh, this could be this, this could

514
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 4: be this right, which is why you'll find our podcast

515
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 4: is like all over the place with books and movies

516
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 4: because we have to find and not that there's not enough,

517
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 4: there is, but it has to have also mean there

518
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 4: has to be enough information, which is sometimes lacking. So

519
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 4: for us, even when we're not working, even though we

520
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 4: may not be recording or even writing, we're constantly.

521
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: Thinking about it.

522
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 4: The amount of social media I consume and then I'm like, okay,

523
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 4: this is podcast. I literally have sections called podcast ideas

524
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 4: because I have to say that and then do research

525
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 4: to see these viable. But I know, like an He's

526
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 4: done this for multiple more years than I have, but

527
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 4: constantly where it never leaves us. So this level of

528
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 4: burnout is very real because also we want to be

529
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 4: relevant and we want to have integrity and what we deliver,

530
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 4: but sometimes it's hard to feel like we're doing that

531
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 4: when we're always on right.

532
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 3: And I used to be one of these, I mean

533
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,239
Speaker 3: until this burnout series and talking to these experts, I mean,

534
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 3: I used to be what both of you are doing,

535
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 3: you just you feel like I just need more input, right,

536
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 3: More input equals more output, right, And I learned I

537
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 3: talked to this guy named cal Newport who's an MIT

538
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 3: trained computer scientist, and he was he was probably he's

539
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 3: probably my favorite guest. But but well, because I'm I'm when

540
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 3: you think about it, I mean, those of us who

541
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 3: love to multitask and you know, get a lot done,

542
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 3: and especially for you guys doing five or six episodes

543
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 3: a week, and who knows what else you're doing, right,

544
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 3: And you know, his whole idea is that working more

545
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: and being productive. We've kind of become addicted to just working, working, working,

546
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 3: and when what we really need to be doing is

547
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 3: to measure our productivity by the quality of the output,

548
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 3: you know. And so he was saying, you know, he

549
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 3: had this, he had like three I love his mantra.

550
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 3: He had this. He's written books on the topic, he

551
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 3: has a podcast, The Whole Thing, and his the three

552
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 3: things that he talks about a lot is to do

553
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 3: fewer things, work at a natural pace, and obsess over quality.

554
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 3: And so I think about that a lot. And and

555
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 3: he's interesting. He's interesting because he's a working father. He

556
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 3: has three kids, maybe three sons, three boys, all school age,

557
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 3: you know, young, elementary school, maybe middle school. And so

558
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 3: he started on this productivity quest how how can I

559
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 3: work less and do more? Because I want to spend

560
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 3: more time with my kids, that and you don't hear

561
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 3: that a lot from from dads. And so he he

562
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 3: kind of built all of this so he can spend

563
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 3: more time with his family. And he's really thought about

564
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 3: he and he's interesting because he's a he's a he's

565
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 3: a computer scientist. He loves technology, understands technology, and his

566
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 3: whole field of research is how technology is is is

567
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 3: really we're addicted to it and and we're not this

568
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 3: generation and we're not used to kind of unplugging or

569
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 3: not used to functioning, and we I guess, I guess

570
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 3: his whole thing is like, for example, he tells me

571
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 3: when I'm working, when I need to do deep thinking,

572
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 3: like I'm working on something and I need to really concentrate,

573
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 3: make sure your phone is in another room, don't look

574
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 3: at your phone, don't look at your tax He even

575
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 3: we even talked about spaces, you know, because I was

576
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 3: telling him, I don't think I can't work in the office,

577
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 3: and I can't work from home either. I don't know

578
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 3: about you guys, but now working from home, I'm so distracted.

579
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 3: I think about laundry all the time. I think about

580
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: the dirty dishes, the dirty dishes. Right, and then during

581
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 3: the summer. You know, some of my my kids are

582
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 3: you know, teen and tween. They don't always want to

583
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 3: go to camp. So they just like their favorite thing

584
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 3: is to just stay home and do nothing, which then

585
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 3: that means I'm the lunch late you know, and then

586
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 3: I'm the dog walker in the afternoon. Right, so it's like,

587
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: what am I going to get my real work done?

588
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 3: And so anyways, so so he coined something called work

589
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 3: from near home. He thinks that's the future of work.

590
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 3: He's at, you know, Georgetown University. So we were recording virtually,

591
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 3: and I said, where are you talking from right now?

592
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 3: It's like I'm talking from this office space that I've

593
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 3: leased in the little town I live in. And I

594
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 3: was like, oh my god, you really are working from

595
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 3: near home. And then I started googling, and I realized, like,

596
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 3: even in my town, my little suburban town, there is

597
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 3: a I can lease office space, you know for two

598
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 3: or three hundred dollars a month, you know, kind of

599
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 3: a I guess almost like the we work concept has

600
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 3: come to the suburbs. And so and then when I

601
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 3: started asking other people who you know, have their own businesses,

602
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 3: you know, kind of PR consultants or whatever, and they're like, oh, yeah,

603
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 3: I've been doing that. I was like, oh, I was like, oh,

604
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 3: maybe I need to jump on that. I have it.

605
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about because I'm also cheap.

606
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:06,479
Speaker 1: And I love so cheap you guys.

607
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't even join a gym because I'm like,

608
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 3: I'll never go to the gym enough. I'm just so

609
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 3: it's like, so it's actually when I think about joining

610
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 3: the gym, it's like it's like, you know, should I

611
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: rent you know, yeah? Should I also rent office space

612
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 3: on my own? So he was interesting. He was saying

613
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 3: that that's what employees should do. They should give that

614
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 3: as an option to people, you know, because you you

615
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 3: might get higher quality work from your employees because they're

616
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 3: not at home doing laundry and thinking about laundry. You know,

617
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 3: they're in a special space, you know, associated with work.

618
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 3: And I guess the upside is you're not bombarded like

619
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 3: for me, like you don't have colleagues talking to the time.

620
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 3: But I know, I feel bad because I love my colleagues.

621
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 3: I love the news room. I love it all right.

622
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 3: One of the best perks is is working in the news.

623
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 3: Working in a newsroom and talking to all these people

624
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 3: and learning all these different stuff and chit chatty. But

625
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 3: I find like, I because I'm not used to being

626
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 3: in the office, I can spend my entire day going

627
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 3: from desk to desk. It's like it's like one It's

628
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 3: like one big cocktail party, you know, except we're not

629
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 3: drinking cocktails. It's like water and coffee.

630
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 4: I mean, that was definitely a pre pandemic thing. I'm

631
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 4: like it just because I'm at the office, I'm on

632
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 4: the clock, it doesn't even matter. I'm I'm producing. But

633
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 4: if I'm at home, I have to prove. I have

634
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 4: to prove to you what I'm doing. Now that we

635
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 4: work from home in a different manner, it's a little

636
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 4: different attitudes, but pre pre pandemic, that's what I would

637
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 4: used to think and be like, if I'm at homeworking,

638
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 4: I have to prove to them this is worth me

639
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 4: working from home. But if I'm at the office, I'm

640
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 4: a socialized with my coworkers because like, yeah, I like them,

641
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 4: and I'm here.

642
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: Seeing here, Well that's my life now. If I don't

643
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 3: have to have any get any work done. I love

644
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 3: being in the office.

645
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: It's perfect.

646
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 3: It's perfect.

647
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: It is you show adult socialization time.

648
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 3: It is.

649
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 1: Oh wow, they always come talk to you.

650
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 4: Look.

651
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: Look, so do you ever leave your podcast studios and leave?

652
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 3: You must do events? So that's your time out right

653
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 3: to do events.

654
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 4: Sometimes we have to do events. The way that they

655
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 4: have set up the new office, they have a lot more.

656
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 4: They do have a lot of studios, but we have

657
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 4: like one hundred and eighty podcasts I think can on

658
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 4: landa alone. So getting studio time camp like, they encourage

659
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,720
Speaker 4: you to come, but it's not necessarily possible for everyone

660
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 4: to be there. And again, as we are now homebodies,

661
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,959
Speaker 4: I think I've been to the office three times since

662
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 4: they've opened, as well as the fact that we recorded

663
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 4: twice there.

664
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 3: I mean, I have to say, it is so remarkable

665
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 3: the technology to be able to record from home. And

666
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 3: we have a tiny podcast studio at the Globe. I

667
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 3: mean it's it's actually hard to fit three p in there,

668
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 3: you know. Yeah, we just recorded something and we had

669
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 3: four people in the studio and it was really cozy,

670
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 3: and so I mean it's the size of a closet,

671
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 3: but four people in there. And so a lot of

672
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 3: times my producers like just record at home. Yeah, you know,

673
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 3: I've got a you know, a mic, I've got a laptop,

674
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 3: I got a background I got I got my circle light.

675
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: We love technology.

676
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 4: It honestly because of the pandemic, we realized, oh, that's

677
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 4: as long as we have the equipment, we're good.

678
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, yeah, I'm just so, I'm I'm sure. It's

679
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 3: like amazing everybody. That's why everyone can do podcasts, right,

680
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 3: I mean you can. You can set up your own

681
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 3: radio station at home. Basically, it's amazing.

682
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 4: It is, it's amazing. And again, this is also the

683
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 4: problem with Annie and I are like, we never stopped.

684
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 4: There's no reason to stop unless we are physically unable

685
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 4: to that kind any excuse kind of comes out the window.

686
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

687
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: I was recently on You've touched on a lot of

688
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 2: questions I've written already.

689
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 3: When that happened.

690
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 2: No, it's good. I think we can tease apart some

691
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 2: more things.

692
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 3: I have more things to say.

693
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, this might be. Some of these are

694
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 2: kind of like my stream of consciousness. So we'll see

695
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 2: if he even resonates with anyone else. I was recently

696
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 2: on vacation and my friends were I was working, and

697
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 2: they all kind of came up to me and they

698
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: were like, you know, I'm jealous of your job in

699
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: a lot of ways, but I really like that I

700
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 2: clock in, clock out, and I'm not doing what you're doing.

701
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 2: And I was just thinking about it because that's always

702
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 2: been the case since I started this job. But I

703
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 2: was thinking about the beginning of the pandemic, and we

704
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 2: were having conversations about what this is going to look like,

705
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 2: what are we going to do, and all kinds of

706
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 2: ideas were getting thrown around beginning. And a coworker friend

707
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 2: of ours we had a meeting and she kind of

708
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 2: was very adamant, like I need to work, do not

709
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 2: take the work from me, because that's how she handled

710
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 2: her stress of the pandemic. It was like a yes distractor.

711
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: And I feel like I do that too. I get

712
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 2: stressed and I'm like, you know what I could do.

713
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 2: I could work on something and it will distract me.

714
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: And I feel I've seen that with a lot of

715
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 2: my women colleagues, less so than men. But now it

716
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: feels like we're all tired, and we're all like, Okay,

717
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 2: I want maybe that part of my brain that shouldn't

718
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 2: be working right now wants to work, but I'm so

719
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 2: tired I can't do it right now. And you know,

720
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 2: we've been talking a lot about the work life balance

721
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 2: for if you have kids, which was huge during the

722
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 2: pandemic and caused a lot of women to drop out

723
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 2: of a lot of like academia and things like that.

724
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 2: But you know, I don't have any kids, and I'm

725
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 2: also just like, how do you balance things? I guess

726
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: is what I'm saying. When you're kind of defining your

727
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: worth through work, which is an unhealthy thing that I

728
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 2: feel like the unit us is kind of bad about,

729
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 2: and you're just stressed. I basically I'm asking for therapy.

730
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 2: I'm sorry.

731
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 3: I keep going. You shared me for me your underwear, I.

732
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: You see her, So here we go.

733
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 3: I mean, I do feel like the pandemic has really

734
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 3: forced me to have priorities, to make priorities, you know,

735
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 3: and to and I think I'm at a point where

736
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 3: I'm I just have to think about what's important to me.

737
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 3: And I think I've decided after going through this pandemic,

738
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 3: is that I my north star right at this moment

739
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 3: is to see my kids grow up and be part

740
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 3: of their lives, you know, at this age, because one

741
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 3: of the things that people don't tell you I don't

742
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 3: have kids, but you'll appreciate this is that when this

743
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 3: is there's a sense that when they're babies, you feel

744
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 3: like they need so much attention and you need to

745
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 3: give a lot of yourself to your babies. But then

746
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 3: you realize as they get older, they actually need you more. Now,

747
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 3: when they're actually walking and talking and they're going through

748
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 3: this these middle school years or teen years, that's when

749
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 3: they actually really really need mom and dad. Because when

750
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 3: they are babies, you can outsource a lot of stuff,

751
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 3: or you know, or you could just I mean, you

752
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 3: could you get through it, you know, and but you

753
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 3: can't outsource a lot of the parenting as they get older,

754
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 3: so that you actually need to spend more time with

755
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 3: your kids. And I decide I don't want to go crazy,

756
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 3: and so I'm kind of making choices. I mean, I'm

757
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 3: still ambitious, and I feel like I think the cost

758
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 3: for me is that I'm really hard on myself, you know,

759
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 3: I'm really like, oh, look, so and so did this,

760
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 3: you know, And of course I know like they don't.

761
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 3: They're also not dealing with some of the stuff I'm

762
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 3: dealing with, you know, or and so they have a

763
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 3: little more time to do X, Y and Z, you know,

764
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 3: and but I try to. I try to think about

765
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 3: it as my kids won't be here for that much,

766
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 3: you know that. You know, it's it's maybe it's another

767
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 3: like four or five years of grinding it out, you know,

768
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 3: this work life, trying to balance out parenting, and then

769
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 3: after that, I have all this time to to kind

770
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 3: of gos go a little faster. And I guess you

771
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 3: just have to make that decision. I mean, one of

772
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 3: the one of my we did a bonus episode of

773
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 3: the Burnout series called It's the Founding Members of the

774
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 3: No Club. Do you have you heard of this club?

775
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 3: The No Club? Oh my god, they are so amazing.

776
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 3: There are four academics around Pittsburgh and they started I

777
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 3: don't know, maybe a seven eight years ago and they

778
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 3: were just you know, uh, academics, working moms, and they

779
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 3: were just overwhelmed. And they decided and they were like,

780
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 3: you know, economists and other researchers, and they decided to

781
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 3: meet monthly over drinks at a restaurant and talk about

782
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 3: like what do I do I'm always burnt out? You know,

783
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 3: and why why? And why does it affect women? You know?

784
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 3: They kind of came up with this idea that women

785
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 3: in the workplace, we tend to do what they call

786
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 3: the non promotable tasks. We mentor people, we throw the

787
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 3: retirement parties, you know, we do all these things that

788
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 3: take away from work that will make the firm money.

789
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,959
Speaker 3: And so as a result, we don't focus on the

790
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 3: promotable tasks. And so, and they did this research showing

791
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 3: that women always say yes. They tend to say yes,

792
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 3: and other women know women say yes, so they tend

793
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 3: to ask other women to do certain tasks as a result.

794
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 3: And so so now I'm learning to say no more

795
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 3: a lot more, and that has helped a lot and

796
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 3: to kind of focus on saying yes to things that

797
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 3: will further my career or further you know, my time

798
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 3: with my family, because I'm learning that women were hardwired

799
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 3: to say yes. We just are. And there was this

800
00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 3: one story about one of the professors. You know, she

801
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 3: was looking at her schedule and she's got this committee

802
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 3: and this task for us to be on and she's

803
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 3: counseling this graduate student and then and she has no

804
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 3: time to do research. And so she compared her schedule

805
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 3: to another academic and his schedule was completely free. He

806
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 3: had seven hours to do research because that's what we'll

807
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 3: get him promoted. That's what we'll get him, you know,

808
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,479
Speaker 3: on tenure. And she's like, what am I doing wrong here?

809
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 3: So so you got to learn to say no more, Annie,

810
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 3: and think about what matters to you, what else, what

811
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 3: else you could be doing, you know, besides working.

812
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 2: This is hilarious because before the pandemic, I was like

813
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 2: the person who did the parties. I was the like

814
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 2: usually I wasn't the one who secured all the stuff,

815
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 2: but I was like the one. And then after the

816
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: pandemic and we were starting to hang out again, I

817
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 2: got contacted by somebody who was trying to like, let's

818
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 2: get people office again. Oh no, tire, Oh gosh.

819
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 3: So did you stop doing parties?

820
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 2: Well, I okay, I'll say I'm in between learning to

821
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 2: say no. And now I've gotten better at saying no

822
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 2: one will come because Atlanta traffic sucks, so I've I've

823
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: I've found an excuse that equates to know. But it

824
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 2: wasn't a no.

825
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 4: She kind of ghosts sometimes where she's like, I'll think

826
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 4: about it and then just no, no, no.

827
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 3: But that's a good tactic. Never say yes. In the

828
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 3: first twenty four hours sleep on it. Oh that's a good. Yeah,

829
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 3: that's good. And so I'm I mean, like, for example,

830
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 3: the other day, I had an assignment in you know,

831
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 3: I had a three o'clock assignment, and I had a

832
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,319
Speaker 3: debate whether or not to take my kid to basketball

833
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 3: at five point thirty, you know, like a special clinic,

834
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,800
Speaker 3: and you know it it involved travel and during rush hour,

835
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 3: and I was thinking, oh, maybe I could do it,

836
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 3: Maybe I could do it, And I'm so glad I

837
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 3: said no because it ended up taking me an out.

838
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 3: You know, my assignment ran long. I ended up not

839
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 3: getting home till six o'clock, you know, in traffic. And

840
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 3: so it's like, this is imagin if I'd said yes,

841
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 3: and then I would have been whole nother stress level.

842
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 3: And so you just have to learn to say no

843
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 3: a lot more and carve out time for yourself.

844
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 2: So I'm wondering about this. There was a time, maybe

845
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 2: two years into the pandemic, when we started getting emails

846
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 2: that was very much like kind of Jedgie about you know,

847
00:47:54,680 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 2: prove your work productivity and all this stuff. And I

848
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,479
Speaker 2: feel like I had a lot of conversations with people

849
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 2: around the time where we were working more than we

850
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,439
Speaker 2: were like overcompensating. As you said, maybe the quality wasn't

851
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 2: the same because we're all stressed and being overworked, but

852
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 2: we were working and I have an app where I

853
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 2: do clock in and clock out, and I was like, no, ooh,

854
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:25,280
Speaker 2: that's great. I got the receipts my friends. But sort

855
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: of related to planning of parties always saying yes, I

856
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 2: feel like there might be a shift happening because we're

857
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 2: talking out about burnout in a lot of different ways, right,

858
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:37,800
Speaker 2: not just work. We're talking about a lot of different

859
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 2: things where now we're not as willing to obscure the

860
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,879
Speaker 2: other stuff we were doing that we were never really

861
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 2: telling you but was kind of helping things move along,

862
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 2: helping things function. Maybe we're just saying like, I'm not

863
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 2: going to do that anymore. But I wonder if that's

864
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 2: something you have a sense of where there's like a

865
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 2: tension of companies being like, but wait what because we've

866
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 2: just been doing it and not really saying anything about it,

867
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 2: or overworking and not really saying anything, and now we're

868
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 2: raising our hand and like, actually, I'm really stressed and

869
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 2: I can't do this anymore, and they're kind of surprised, like,

870
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 2: I didn't even know you were doing that.

871
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I feel I mean, I think also what's

872
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 3: happening is that the younger generation of workers at gen

873
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 3: Z in particular, they they don't want to they don't

874
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 3: want to be so work focused. I mean, they don't

875
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 3: want to spend they don't even want to make friends

876
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 3: at work. Yeah, So it's a it's a different and

877
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 3: so as more gen zs come into the workplace, whereas

878
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 3: like the Millennials, the gen xers, the baby boomers, we

879
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 3: were kind of used to working all the time and

880
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 3: and and almost as a badge of honor, you know,

881
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 3: And now it's it's not it's it's I think it's

882
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 3: a healthier environment. Now though some of my you know,

883
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,399
Speaker 3: best friends, you know, my longest the people I've known

884
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 3: the longest are from people I've met at work, you know.

885
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 3: And so I mean, so part of me is like, oh,

886
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 3: I hope, I hope, I hope that still happens. You know,

887
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 3: I've met some really great people at work, and so

888
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 3: but it's healthier. People are learning to kind of take

889
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 3: stock of how much they're working. And because I do

890
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 3: think also even though the pandemic. May it's over. I

891
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 3: mean we're still dealing with the aftershocks of it all.

892
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, yes, for sure, Samantha and I are certainly.

893
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 2: I still sometimes feel like I'm in lockdown. It's just

894
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 2: been a really difficult thing for me to get over.

895
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 2: And I think that's true for a lot of people.

896
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 2: And I do think a lot of this hidden work

897
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 2: that was happening was women. And then when you bring

898
00:50:54,760 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 2: in childcare whatever that is, Yeah, we're just sort of

899
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 2: not wanting to do that anymore without saying, you know what,

900
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: it's something's got to give, something's got to give.

901
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 4: And I'm wondering like if part of like understanding and

902
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 4: being able to identify that like we are all or

903
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,439
Speaker 4: in similar boats, and then being able to acknowledge, oh,

904
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 4: this is kind of a mistreatment from like corporations on us,

905
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 4: this expectation that we should be okay and as long

906
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 4: as we're earning them money then everything is fine. But

907
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 4: social media has kind of brought to life like, yeah,

908
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 4: but is it really really healthy for you? Are you

909
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 4: getting anything out of this other than bringing money for them?

910
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 4: And then you're losing focus on, like you said, being

911
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 4: able to spend time with your family or being able

912
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 4: to have time for yourself and you're really starting to

913
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 4: see oh, in the end, it really doesn't like fold

914
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 4: out for us the individual who are the ones that's

915
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,800
Speaker 4: suffering from burnout and with that, uh, still not seeing

916
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 4: the end in sight, like filling that bar again. Like

917
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 4: I said that, this has become the new norm for

918
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 4: so many of us that were like, okay, so what

919
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 4: do we do because the corporations or our bosses, our

920
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 4: businesses are not going to exactly help us find solutions

921
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,439
Speaker 4: for this, So what what do we do to find

922
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 4: a solution?

923
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 3: I mean, in certain industries, I do think employers want

924
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 3: to you know, help employees you know, adjust to the

925
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 3: new normal, whatever that is. Because in certain sectors it's

926
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 3: a there's a very low unemployment rate. I mean it's

927
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 3: hard to find good workers. It's hard to and people

928
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 3: want to keep good, good people. And so I think,

929
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,839
Speaker 3: you know, some employee in the sectors that aren't you know,

930
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 3: there aren't doing a lot of layoffs. I mean, they

931
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 3: want to do right by their you know, their employees.

932
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 3: And I think also as a lot a lot more

933
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 3: women get into and a lot of you know, younger

934
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 3: managers come up through their ranks. I think they're more

935
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 3: mindful about mental health and so I'm hoping that we

936
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:11,359
Speaker 3: out of all of this, we build kind of a

937
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 3: healthier workplace for everyone.

938
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:15,280
Speaker 2: Right.

939
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, and again, like social media really has brought to

940
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 4: light on like, ay, this is not supposed to be

941
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 4: how it's supposed to be.

942
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 1: And I think like.

943
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 4: Podcasts in itself have given like a big platform, especially

944
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 4: to have like your podcast a series where we talk about, Hey,

945
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,479
Speaker 4: these are the different types of burnouts. Let's talk about

946
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,439
Speaker 4: how this affects you, and then let's talk about how

947
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 4: that looks not only in the business world, your personal world,

948
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 4: and then let's find these possible solutions in this conversation.

949
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 4: Do you feel like with your like your podcast and

950
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 4: your series, this is like this is the platform for

951
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 4: you to be able to do that.

952
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: Does that make sense?

953
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean I don't really write columns on this topic.

954
00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 3: I mean that's what I love about the podcast is

955
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:03,280
Speaker 3: that it's allowed me to cover different topics and issues

956
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 3: that I normally wouldn't get into. And it's been really

957
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 3: I feel like the podcast platform this burnout topic has

958
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 3: been it's been really it's been really effective. You know,

959
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 3: talking about it.

960
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 4: Have you heard from audiences or your listeners about this?

961
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 3: I have, Yeah, I have. I have heard from audiences

962
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 3: and listeners. And because I think everybody's gone through this,

963
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 3: it's not like a tiny segment is feeling burned out.

964
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:34,760
Speaker 3: A lot of people felt burnt out during the pandemic

965
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 3: and they don't know what to do. I mean, I

966
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 3: think a lot of people are like me, can I

967
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 3: get back to my old self? Does that even? Can

968
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:43,720
Speaker 3: I even remember it? Or does it even make sense anymore?

969
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 3: I think where I landed was maybe it doesn't make

970
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 3: sense for me to be my old self. The pandemic

971
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 3: has changed me. You know, it's not realistic, and so

972
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 3: what is my new kind of happy medium? Like? What

973
00:54:57,840 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 3: does that look like?

974
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 2: One of the things that you talked about in the

975
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 2: podcast that I'm really interested in if you could give

976
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 2: like a brief explanation. I love science, and you have

977
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 2: an episode about the science of burnout right there.

978
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 3: Also we had an episode about the science of happiness

979
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 3: too as well. That was really interesting too. But yeah,

980
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:21,919
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean I guess the science and that

981
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 3: you know, it's a This is with probably referring to

982
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 3: the Harvard medical school doctor Addie Nurcar, and she she

983
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,240
Speaker 3: has been on the forefront of studying the science of stress.

984
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 3: I mean, she herself went through a very burnt out

985
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 3: or panic episode when she was a medical school student

986
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:47,399
Speaker 3: and she suddenly, you know, it was working all these

987
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 3: hours and then she was exhausted and tired and she

988
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 3: couldn't get out of bed. She felt like I think

989
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 3: she talked about she felt like a stampede of horses

990
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 3: were on her chest. And she went to see a

991
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 3: doctor and did a battery of tech y and her

992
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 3: doctor said to her, congratulations, is just stress and and

993
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 3: so just take some time off and you know, go

994
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 3: to the SPA, go on vacation. And she was so

995
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 3: dissatisfied with that answer. That really inspired her to kind

996
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 3: of study the science of stress. And She's like, I

997
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:25,280
Speaker 3: needed and she wanted to become the doctor she wished

998
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:29,240
Speaker 3: she had seen. You know, someone could be like, Okay,

999
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:34,239
Speaker 3: it is actually there's something physical, there's something mental going on,

1000
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 3: and you need to address it. I Mean, what I've

1001
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 3: also learned and from others, is that the idea is

1002
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 3: that you can't self care your way out of stress.

1003
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 3: No number of SPA visits or vacation days will take

1004
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,359
Speaker 3: away your stress. You need to get at the root

1005
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 3: cause of your stress. You probably do need to say

1006
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 3: no more. You need to take more breaks during the day.

1007
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 3: You need more phi. Everyone talked about physical activity, Everyone

1008
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 3: talked about taking deep breaths. So I was like, never

1009
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 3: heard so many people talk about you need to take

1010
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,760
Speaker 3: more breaths, deep breaths. I was like, okay. And then

1011
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 3: and then also getting quiet, the power of quiet. That

1012
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 3: was the other thing I didn't think about, and I do.

1013
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 3: I practice this a lot now, which is kind of

1014
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 3: the because you're on social media, you have so much

1015
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 3: stuffed in your brain and you can't even think straight right,

1016
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 3: and so you need time to just clear your mind.

1017
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 3: So sometimes when I walk the dog, I don't listen

1018
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 3: to a podcast because I need to clear my brain. Now,

1019
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:38,919
Speaker 3: when I'm in the car, I try not to turn

1020
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 3: on the radio or listen to a podcast. I just

1021
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 3: need moments, you know, even minutes, twenty minutes, fifteen minutes

1022
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 3: where there's just nothing, just me and my thoughts and

1023
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 3: that's it. And so so I feel like there is

1024
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 3: something to this whole I stress isn't just in our heads.

1025
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 3: I mean we kind of need to. We almost almost

1026
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 3: need to think about it from a almost a scientific manner,

1027
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,439
Speaker 3: you know, like dissecting it and picking it apart. It's

1028
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 3: just not in our head and it's not it's it's

1029
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 3: not just going to the spa, you know.

1030
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, we have talked about that numerous times on

1031
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 2: this podcast. Stress does have physical impacts on you. It

1032
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 2: has it can we joke about it a lot, but

1033
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 2: it can shorten your life span, it can impact your health.

1034
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 2: So it is it is something serious and something we

1035
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 2: should look at scientifically and should investigate more because, as

1036
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 2: you said, we all experience it. Probably most of us

1037
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 2: have experienced burnout, so it would be nice to know,

1038
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 2: certainly for people like me, like, here's your scientific reason

1039
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 2: this is this is happening.

1040
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's it's I mean for me, I

1041
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 3: thought was so interesting talking to all these experts is

1042
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 3: that it was almost like like, for example, like uh,

1043
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 3: productivity and doing laundry, right, I was thinking. Even even

1044
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 3: doctor Neuerkar talked to me about laundry, she she had

1045
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 3: because she was saying that, you know, one of the

1046
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 3: scientific things that she talked about with me was about

1047
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 3: how only uh, you know, a lot of us pride

1048
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 3: ourselves in multitasking, right we can, and and the science

1049
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 3: shows that only two percent of us can actually truly multitask.

1050
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 3: We're actually not really multitasking. We'rek was a task switching, right,

1051
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 3: And so doctor Neuerkar talked to me about we all

1052
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 3: need to be doing more mono tasking, doing one thing

1053
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 3: at a time. So one of so, I said, how

1054
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 3: do you deal with laundry? And she says to me,

1055
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 3: she only does she she she takes all her chores,

1056
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 3: her household chores, and she does it like Wednesday evening.

1057
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 3: And so so now for me, I only do laundry

1058
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 3: on Wednesdays and the weekend. That's it. And I mean, yes,

1059
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 3: I do. I sit around with piles of laundry not folded,

1060
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 3: clean but not folded. I've got one upstairs right now. Yes,

1061
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 3: But win like this morning, my son was like, Mom,

1062
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 3: I don't have any shorts. I was like, oh, go

1063
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 3: look through that basket upstick, go.

1064
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: To the clean pile.

1065
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 3: There's a clean pile exactly. But I'm willing to. I'm

1066
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 3: willing to if that's the price I have to pay,

1067
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 3: It's okay, right for my for my mental health.

1068
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: A win is a win. I'm just saying, chests.

1069
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 2: I okay, this is so fascinating to me because I

1070
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 2: have started doing the quiet time before I even knew this,

1071
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 2: just naturally because I've been so stressed and I also

1072
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 2: have this is when I do my jars.

1073
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so so so right so so, I mean some

1074
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 3: of the stuff I did already, but now you understand it,

1075
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 3: and then now you'll keep doing it right, You'll be

1076
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 3: That's That's what happened to me, is like, oh, yeah,

1077
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 3: like this, this is why I should keep keep at

1078
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:18,919
Speaker 3: it or do things a certain way. This is why

1079
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 3: I need to you know, I knew that the phone

1080
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 3: like that. Now when I go to sleep at night,

1081
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 3: I keep my phone is not in arms reach, it is,

1082
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 3: you know, halfway across the room in another room. And

1083
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 3: so and I also now when I wake up in

1084
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 3: the morning, I make sure I used to just like

1085
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 3: go on my computer right away, right, And now I

1086
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 3: was like, okay, the first half hour, forty five minutes,

1087
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 3: it's me, it's me time. I'm sitting on my deck.

1088
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 3: I'm you know, listening to the birds. I'm you know,

1089
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 3: watering the plants and my flowers and my basil plants,

1090
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 3: you know, and and so I'm I'm just kind of

1091
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 3: you know, taking that time for me.

1092
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 2: Well, Shirley, thank you so much for being here. You're

1093
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 2: officially a Sminty friend.

1094
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 3: Oh this is great.

1095
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 2: Yes, you're welcome back anytime. If you're ever in Atlanta,

1096
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 2: if you're ever in Boston, yes, yes, and thank you

1097
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 2: for the free therapy.

1098
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 3: In the mail voices.

1099
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 4: Yes.

1100
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 2: Well, where can the good listeners find you?

1101
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 3: You can find me well, it's called say More. Just

1102
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 3: look up Say More Boston Globe or say More with

1103
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 3: Shirley Leung l e U n g uh. You can

1104
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 3: find us at Globe dot com, slash say More or

1105
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:52,440
Speaker 3: wherever you find your podcast. And if you guys are

1106
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 3: on X or whatever you call it now, I'm at

1107
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 3: l e U n g I'm on LinkedIn as well.

1108
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 3: So but yeah, I'm I'm I'm reachable.

1109
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 2: Yes, well, thank you so much for coming on. And

1110
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 2: listeners please go check all that stuff out. If you

1111
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 2: would like to find us, listeners, you can or email

1112
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 2: Stuff India mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can

1113
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 2: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts, or in't

1114
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 2: Instagram and TikTok at stuff when Never Told You. We

1115
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 2: also have a YouTube, a tea public store, and we

1116
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 2: have a book you can get where you get your books.

1117
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 2: Thanks as always here at super producer Christina or executive

1118
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:31,680
Speaker 2: producer My and our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks

1119
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:33,440
Speaker 2: to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told You is

1120
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:35,480
Speaker 2: projection of iHeart Radio. For more podcast from my Heart Radio,

1121
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 2: you can check out the ihart radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1122
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,