1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: The unsolved murders of Susanne Armstrong and Susan Bartlett have 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: been a dark constant in the lives of their families 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 1: and friends for nearly five decades now. But can justice 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: still be achieved after all this time? How long Canna 5 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: Cole case continue to be investigated without success before investigator's 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: attention and funding are reprioritized And at what point is 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: such a decision made, if at all? Then again, after 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: forty seven years, is it time for a more significant 9 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: legal intervention, perhaps a second coroner's inquest. It's fair to 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: say the first one into the Easy Street murders achieved 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 1: nothing other than an official verdict that the two women 12 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: had been fatally stabbed by person or persons unknown. Only 13 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: ten witnesses provided statements to Victoria's coroner, Harry Pasco, and 14 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: as we know, he heard nothing at all from the 15 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: three potential witnesses who lived in the street at the 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:07,199 Speaker 1: time of killings, Gladys Coventry, Peter Sellers and Christina for Tourists. Now, 17 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: some of those involved in this case believe a new 18 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: coroner's inquiry should occur. It only happens on rare occasions, 19 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: but lawyers I've spoken to while researching this podcast suggest 20 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: it might be the only way forward. Many aren't too 21 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: keen on talking about it publicly, but retired forensic pathologist 22 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: Stephen Cordner, the eminent first director of the Victorian Institute 23 00:01:30,080 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: of Forensic Medicine, has no such qualms. 24 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: Occasionally, second inquests have produced useful results, and I think 25 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 2: I'm not saying there hasn't been a second inquest in 26 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 2: this case, and around about now probably getting to be 27 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: about the end of the line if you don't have 28 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 2: one now, and you're never going to have one because 29 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 2: so much time has passed. But I reckon there's a 30 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: good case, given the seriousness of this matter for the 31 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:37,399 Speaker 2: families involved. But this was a huge event for Melbourne, 32 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 2: for Collingwood. An easy street just carries with it all 33 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: of this baggage. 34 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 3: You know. 35 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 2: It sounds to me like precisely the sort of event 36 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: that a second inquest exists to try and help with. 37 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: And what have we got to lose some so it 38 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: might flush something out, and including the possibility that somebody's 39 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 2: been sitting on really important information for fifty years and 40 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, hasn't been sharing it. 41 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: Professor Cordner Honorary Professor in Forensic Pathology at Monash University 42 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 1: remembers what happened at one four seven Easy Street vividly. 43 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 2: I think anybody who was sentient in Melbourne at those 44 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: times has got Easy Street see it into their memories. 45 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 2: It seems to be certainly in my mind. It's you know, 46 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: it was the sort of thing that you didn't think 47 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: could possibly happen in Melbourne, and I think upset people 48 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 2: and made people feel less secure and less like we 49 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: were living in you know, the wonderful country we thought 50 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: we were, which we are of course, but it did 51 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: alter things. I think, yes, just thinking of that baby 52 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: left there for three days, but two two young women, 53 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: one a mother, if it happened today, it would rock 54 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: the city as well. There have been such improvements at 55 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: being able to sort these things out where probably we're 56 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: talking about a stranger. 57 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 3: Well you know, there are. 58 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: Arguments against it being a stranger, but let just for 59 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: the moment, suppose that it was a stranger. Police technology 60 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: classe secuit TV DNA. You know, microscopic faces can be 61 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 2: detected and matched with something else, so that type of 62 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: approach simply was not available at all in nine seventy seven, 63 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: so I would think their success rate in those days 64 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: with that sort of crime is very much less than 65 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 2: it is today. And of course these days you've got 66 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 2: a public much more turned into and more effectively accessed 67 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:06,239 Speaker 2: by police to make their contribution to which doesn't seem 68 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:11,119 Speaker 2: to have been completely covered off in nineteen seventy seven. 69 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: Yet even with all these advances, there's still been no 70 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: hit within Australia's national database. So what does that tell us? 71 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 2: Well, the national database, as good as it is, isn't perfect. 72 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 2: There are different rules for getting your DNA onto the 73 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 2: database for each state. Each state has slightly different rules 74 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 2: for taking samples from individuals to profile and then to 75 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: add on to the DNA database. And it's quite a 76 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 2: complicated administrative process. So you know, I think there are 77 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 2: a few barriers to as comprehensive a DNA database that 78 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 2: people probably think we have. Having said that, I'm all 79 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 2: in favor. I can't really see any too many civil 80 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 2: liberty objections to a proper DNA database myself. So what 81 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 2: does that say to us that it's not there? Well, 82 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 2: it doesn't really take us too far. The one or 83 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: more people, but probably one I think who was the 84 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: murderer in this case has got away with it and 85 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: hasn't been caught for anything else. It doesn't mean that 86 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: it didn't know other things. 87 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: You make the point though, in raising that question, that 88 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: one possible answer is suicide. 89 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 3: So that is a possibility. 90 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 2: I mean, I think somebody who commits this sort of crime, 91 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 2: if they have scaic of moral sense, then they're at 92 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 2: risk of suicide because it just gnaws at them. They're 93 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 2: the type of person that can have done this, and 94 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 2: really the only the only decent thing they can do 95 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,039 Speaker 2: if they're going to continue to live, is either to 96 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: give themselves up or to commit suicide. 97 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 3: I know that there are murderers who. 98 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 2: Have who have done that, and it's sort of in 99 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: an awful way, it's understandable. So its possible this person 100 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: has gone down that path. This murderer, in which case 101 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 2: set probably quite an effective way of covering effects. 102 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: Investigating this, of course, would be fraud. 103 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: Huge task because you know, I mean in Victoria alone, 104 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: there's you know, more suicides into our Morod traffic fatalities, 105 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 2: so you know, probably seven or eight hundred suicide of 106 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: a year in Victoria and fifty years since Easy Street 107 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: not quite so, that would be a huge task. 108 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 3: You would need. 109 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 2: To develop a list of possibilities and then that would 110 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 2: be enormous. Of course, you'd probably restrict yourself to the 111 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: first decade after after therese murders. There is a sort 112 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: of as a sort of start. You'd be struggling at 113 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: this distance to get any DNA samples from those deaths 114 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 2: because it's so long ago and samples wouldn't exist. 115 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: There could be family, that could could be family. 116 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: There could be family, but then you have to get 117 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: more than you know, you have to get more than 118 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 2: one family member probably to give you a sample. It 119 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: would be a very difficult conversation to have with a 120 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: family of somebody who's suicided, Very very difficult. And I 121 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 2: wouldn't be surprised if the police authority to some extent 122 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 2: gone down that path. They would might necessarily announce to 123 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 2: the world that they've done that. But that's a place 124 00:08:50,960 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: where occasional murderers have been found. 125 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: As we explore what should happen next in the Easy 126 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: Street case, it's instructive to note the view of the 127 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: senior forensic investigator who attended the crime scene that morning, 128 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: Sergeant Henry Huggins from the Police Forensic Science Lab, was 129 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: troubled by what confronted him. Not only had two young 130 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: women been brutally stabbed, but numerous police had been in 131 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: and out of a house before he even arrived contaminating 132 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: the scene. Fresh from a crime scene course in the UK, 133 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: Huggins knew this before he started examining that scene with 134 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: his colleague, forensic biologist Mariam McBain. One of the most 135 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: obvious mistakes a detective had washed his hands in the bathroom. Nevertheless, 136 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: Sergeant Huggins and his colleagues collected as much evidence as 137 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: they could without jumping to conclusions about what exactly had 138 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: happened in the house. 139 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 4: No, that's dangerous to do. Actually, yeah, No, you don't 140 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 4: want to come to a conclusion into a place because 141 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 4: you can make any theory fit any shene you like. Yes, 142 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 4: we can make it fit if you're not careful. So 143 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 4: bastually you go and say, I, actual, we've got one 144 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 4: body there, noody here, that's still what we can find. 145 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 4: But I don't think at that stage I ever really 146 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 4: came to an inclusion. Well, I'd say it was pretty 147 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 4: obvious that Amtal got killed before Bart well, certainly attacked, 148 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 4: you know, but the amount of blood she lost in 149 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 4: the carpet, in my life, I thought she was probably 150 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 4: did i WM. 151 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: Henry Huggins passed away in twenty twenty two. He was 152 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: revered as a forensic scientist, investigating most major crime scenes 153 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: in Victoria during his twenty six years with the police. 154 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: Those who knew and work with him will call his 155 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: attention to detail, his commitment, and his thoughtfulness. He certainly 156 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: thought deeply about the Easy Streets more than forty years 157 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: after attending that crime scene. When I was working on 158 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: my book Murder on Easy Street, we went through some 159 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: of the investigator statements that had gone to the coroner 160 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: in seventy seven. He was immediately in the moment back 161 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: in the little house in Collingwood and frustrated. He worried 162 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 1: that the police photographer hadn't captured all the images that 163 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: were relevant in Suzanne's bedroom, that the seminal stains on 164 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: sheets taken from the house probably hadn't been stored in 165 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: Tony Raymond's special fridge, That he couldn't really work out 166 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: the killer's sequence of attack. For instance, he wondered if 167 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: Sue had gone out that night only to come home 168 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: and be confronted by the murderer. But Gladys Coventry's interview 169 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: with truth pos's new questions. Of course, Henry Huggins never 170 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: read her account of the tall man with dark hair 171 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: she saw talking with Susan Bartlett early on January eleventh, 172 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven. So did Sue actually unwittingly invite the 173 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: killer in? Or was another man outside the house waiting 174 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: to come in when her guest left? And why are 175 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: the small glasses missus Coventry describes in the article not 176 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: mentioned in the official list of exhibits presented to the coroner. 177 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: There were other details too that bothered Henry Huggins. 178 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 4: Will I find difficult with this is that we've got 179 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 4: two blood grooms. This is Armstrong's and Bartlett's. From what 180 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 4: I chance to do is find a reason for Armstrong 181 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 4: being in the bathroom. 182 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: So her blood was in the bathroom, a blood vision 183 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: on the washing machine, No, on the side of the bath. 184 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 4: So could that have been his one? Well it's possible, 185 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 4: but he is also away, so that is a possibility. Well, 186 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 4: otherwise I cannot see how she would be attacked in 187 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 4: her bedroom and managed to get up to the up 188 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 4: to the bassroom back again without spreading blood on the 189 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 4: wad and the floor all the way. 190 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 3: Out and get back there. 191 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, she did at one stage try and get to 192 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 4: the phone. Now, the phone is a bit of a 193 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 4: mystery in the way because the phone acially liked there 194 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 4: was blood on the young clock and up along the 195 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 4: back of the room there there was no blood on 196 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 4: the phone, and the phone was right in the corner 197 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 4: in her bedroom. 198 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 3: The phone was in the part now. 199 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 4: Unfortunately, when the photographer took the photographs and you did around, 200 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 4: he missed that vital corner unfortunately, so there's no photo 201 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 4: showing the phone. So they had two extensions. It could 202 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 4: have been. I know there was one in the bedroom 203 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 4: and arms from obviously tried to reach it over the beer. 204 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: So that wasn't his blood, that was her blood. 205 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 4: Well we don't know, as that is the problem we have. 206 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 4: But I feel that blood across there the sheets and 207 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 4: over towards the top phone was an attempt to get 208 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 4: to the phone. 209 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: I think, so many years later it was impossible to 210 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: be sure. But the retired forensic scientist was especially unimpressed 211 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: by pathologist James McNamara's failure to identify the fatal stab 212 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: were en suffered by the women. 213 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 4: See. One of the difficulties here is that McNamara hasn't 214 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 4: made any suggestion till whether any old though on their own, 215 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 4: would have been faithful. 216 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: Matt the knife didn't they call? 217 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 4: You've heard that very I mean these days we'd have 218 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 4: a lot more detail than have been a a diagram 219 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 4: or each body as to where they are. 220 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: To be fair, Henry Huggins was critical of his own 221 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: work too, insisting his official statement in nineteen seventy seven 222 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't make the grade now. In an email to me 223 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: in May twenty nineteen, he went further, looking back at 224 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: my and Morham at Bain's statement, I am thinking that 225 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: perhaps we were asked for short statements for the coroner 226 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: to establish cause of death only as no person had 227 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: been charged or was expected to be charged. This meant 228 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: a simple statement to assist in establishing cause of death. 229 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: This often happened just to get an inquest over. In 230 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: this note he also said that he just realized this 231 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: was Maauram mcmain's first crime scene and that he quote 232 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: should have gone over the scene in detail with it 233 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: to ensure we had the right samples to test every 234 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: theory we could come up with. He also pointed out 235 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: a mistake I'd made in the book by reporting that 236 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: it entered number one four seven through the front door. 237 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: Where did you get the idea that I went in 238 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: the front door? I think that is very unlikely even 239 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: in those days, and I noted that it was shut. 240 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: Henry Huggins was adamant this double murder would have been 241 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: solved a decade later. I'm sure if it had happened 242 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: in eighty seven instead of seventy seven, it would have 243 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: been solved, he wrote in his final email to me. 244 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: By then we had better blood and DNA analysis and 245 00:16:53,520 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: better crime scene control. Former pathologist Stephen Cordner isn't quite 246 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: as convinced about this as Henry Huggins, but he has 247 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: the highest regard for his work, in particular the way 248 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: he investigated this double homicide. 249 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 2: Henry Huggins, I think this is huge testament to both 250 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 2: his the way he thought. He didn't only think he did, 251 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: he acted. He went out and looked in all the 252 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 2: draines in the immediate vicinity, more than the immediate vicinity. 253 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: So that's huge task, but really good thinking. I wouldn't 254 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: think that had happened before. Maybe that was the first time. 255 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: I don't know, But have you said in your book 256 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 2: that he found a face washer. 257 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 3: He didn't only find a face washer. 258 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 2: He kept the face washer, made it an exhibit and 259 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 2: tested it, and low and behold, found some semen on it, 260 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 2: which I think asked to tell a story of you know, 261 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 2: the And assuming that you'll tell me that the semen 262 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 2: on the face washer was the same DNA has found 263 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 2: on the carpet, well. 264 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, that's never been that's never been made clear. 265 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 3: Let's assume that that's the case. 266 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 2: And we might be wrong about that, but there can't 267 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 2: be too many face washers down raines with semen on them, 268 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 2: and let alone within a short distance of a place 269 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: where there's just been a sexual murder. So let's suppose 270 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,479 Speaker 2: they're the same. Then that start to tell the story 271 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: of the sort of murderer we're dealing with. There's someone 272 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 2: who's thinking, who's cleaning and tidying themselves up and getting 273 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 2: rid of the evidence. And as I understand it, no 274 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 2: knife has ever been found. There are stories going there 275 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 2: as a whole unclear. Haven't wait to put on those stories, 276 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 2: but there's you know, stories of a man being seen 277 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 2: washing himself. There's clear evidence that the bathroom has been 278 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: used to wash himself in the bathroom, there's some suggestion 279 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 2: that one of the bodies was cleaned up. So this 280 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 2: sounds like somebody who may be in their own psychiatrically disturbed, 281 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 2: psychologically disturbed mind, but he's also functioning in a reasonably 282 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 2: ordered way to cover his tracks. So that, you know, 283 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 2: makes me think that perhaps this person entered the house 284 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: with this project, this murder in mind, and maybe you know, 285 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 2: I thought he was going to be able to get 286 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 2: away with just the one but then got disturbed and 287 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 2: had to kill both women. It really does look to 288 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 2: me like this was this was somebody intent upon murder, 289 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 2: and so that makes you think about whether this person 290 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: has done it before and or afterwards. 291 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: Stephen Corner also has a telling perspective about what pathologist 292 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: James McNamara was able to tell the coroner in nineteen 293 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: seventy seven and what he couldn't. 294 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: I mean, when there's multiple stab worons because of death 295 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 2: is bleeding from multiple stab word because they're all generally 296 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 2: speaking happening at much the same time, and the bleeding 297 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 2: is occurring from all of them. Yes, the bleeding from 298 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 2: the heart will be more substantial than the bleeding from 299 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 2: the lung or the bleeding from soft tissue in the 300 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 2: arm or something like that, And you can't say which 301 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 2: order they happened, So a reasonable thing to say is 302 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 2: multiple stab worins. 303 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 3: As doctor McNamara did, I think. 304 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 2: He probably would have said, if you'd ask him, why 305 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 2: didn't you describe how much decomposition there was? You would 306 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 2: have said, oh, we talked photos so you can see 307 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: for yourself, you know, And that's that's an answer. But 308 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 2: I think most reports would probably include a description of 309 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 2: it as well. But that was in the seventies and 310 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 2: doctor McNamara wasn't actually attained pathologist, and that was the 311 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 2: way the system sort of worked in those days. And 312 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 2: one of the reasons that the Victim in Authentic Medicine 313 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 2: came into existence was to repair that sort of system. 314 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: In our last email exchange, the late Henry Huggins said 315 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: that probably the bestly the police had four decades ago 316 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: was a phone call to a prominent Melbourne journalist not 317 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: long after the murders. Senior columnist Teslawrence from The Herald 318 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: newspaper was invited by police to visit Easy Street. In fact, 319 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: she wandered through the so called murder house as the 320 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: two families were packing up the young women's belongings. When 321 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 1: her piece was published, she got an unnerving call at 322 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: work from a man who peppered her with questions about 323 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: what she'd written, as well as commenting on certain items 324 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: in the house itself. He was especially interested in the record, 325 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: apparently an album on the stereo that he said she 326 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: should have named. Was he just a true crime nut 327 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: or did the murderer actually call the journalist At the time, 328 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: Tess Lawrence tried to get police to follow up the call, 329 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: but had no idea how seriously they took the matter. 330 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: It's probably not surprising that she's called for an inquiry 331 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: into their handling of the investigation overall. Of course, detectives 332 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: have had other leads to follow too. In the decades 333 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: since the death of Susan Bartlett and Suzanne Armstrong. There 334 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: were the letters sent to the Armstrong family by one 335 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: Peter Collier, a man they didn't know. He claimed to 336 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: have been in a psychiatric hospital with a man he 337 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: alleged was responsible for the girl's deaths, and over a 338 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: period of three years, outlined his theory in detail and 339 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: quite dignified old fashioned handwriting. Certainly parts of his tale 340 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: were true. I was able to verify that he and 341 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: Anthony Christie, the man he was implicating, had been treated 342 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: at Larundel Hospital in nineteen seventy seven. Collier was also 343 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: well known in the bright region, where most of his 344 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: correspondence was posted, and to be fair, his letters and 345 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: postcards to Suzanne's Mamma Alene and her second husband, Bruce Curry, 346 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: had an air of reason to them and a barely 347 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: contained anger that the murderer hadn't been apprehended. In the 348 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: first letter, sent in two thousand and four, Peter Collier 349 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 1: blamed this on what he described as the criminal negligence 350 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: of the institution as well as the homicide squad. Briefly, 351 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: he claimed that Anthony Christi had been admitted to Larundel 352 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: early in seventy seven in a coma that lasted ten days. 353 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: After he'd regained consciousness, Christie allegedly told two different therapy 354 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: groups that he liked to carve up women after having 355 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: sex with them. Initially, the Armstrongs took Collier seriously enough 356 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: to meet him at least once, and as well as 357 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: writing to Suzanne's family, he also letter bombed Easy Street, 358 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: putting flyers in mailboxes up and down the street that 359 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: made similar claims about Larundel and the killer. A couple 360 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: of locals who still lived there hung on to them 361 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: for years. Aileen Curry, Suzanne's mother, also kept Collier's letters 362 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,719 Speaker 1: and cards. Despite police dismissing the scenario that he suggested 363 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: as having any bearing on the case, sister Gail still 364 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: has them. They said he was a looney and had 365 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: done it before to other people, so who knows, She 366 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: told me after a protracted email exchange, Victoria Police Media 367 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: told me, quote, both Peter Collier and Anthony Christi have 368 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: been investigated and eliminated unquote. This was the same email 369 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: in which I was told on October five, twenty twenty two, 370 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: that investigators have also spoken to Gladys Coventry. At that stage, 371 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: we didn't know about her interview with Truth. Police Media 372 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: added that Peter Sellers will also be spoken to by 373 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: investigators in the near future. A couple of weeks later, 374 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: Senior Detective Lee Prados did just that. After forty five 375 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: years and ten months Peter Sellers was finally interviewed about 376 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: what he'd heard the night the two young women were 377 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: murdered in his street. He admits he felt a bit 378 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: apprehensive when he arrived at cramb And Police station to 379 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: meet the homicide investigator. 380 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 5: Not nervous, anxious maybe do you know what? Of course, 381 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 5: it's been so long and someone in authority wanted to 382 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 5: talk to me, that was the main reason. And yeah, 383 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 5: once I started there, it was fine, and he was 384 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 5: really good, really good. Initially, of course he just said 385 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 5: to me and he can't discuss, he can't lead it 386 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 5: into a question. I had to put forward in my 387 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,959 Speaker 5: own words. And then you wanted to Then I explained 388 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 5: about the book and the podcast is all coming up, 389 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 5: and you wanted to know exactly what I'm saying today 390 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 5: is exactly what I put in the book in the podcast. 391 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 3: I said yes. 392 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: Once they got into the swing of things, Peter relaxed 393 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: and his memory certainly didn't fail him. Though the interview 394 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: took three hours to document. 395 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 5: I proceeded tell a story, but then every now and 396 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 5: again he stopped and he typed some more, then asked 397 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 5: me like a question on the question. 398 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,239 Speaker 1: So he's not recording it as far as you know, 399 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: he's actually asking you a question and then typing in 400 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: your answer. 401 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 5: That's correct. Yeah, yeah, not one bit was recorded. It 402 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 5: was all typing. 403 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: Does that strike he was odd in twenty two? 404 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 5: I did initially, but the more you sat there and 405 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 5: he did it just went by it. But he was 406 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 5: very thorough and we got it all out and he 407 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 5: actually apologized for things that didn't happen in the initial investigation. 408 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 1: Did he specify what should have happened? 409 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 5: No, just to getting interviewed, because he asked me, did 410 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 5: mum and Dad get interviewed again? I said no, they 411 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 5: interviewed the once and that was it. And yeah, he 412 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 5: just trick, he said, But yeah, no, I'm glad I've 413 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 5: done it. So yeah. He said it's going to be ongoing. 414 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 5: That you said, don't even think it's going to be 415 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 5: swept away. It's not. It's going to be ongoing. And 416 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 5: he said, check in with me when if you want 417 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 5: to find hour things are going. 418 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 1: And Peter, three hour sounds like a long time, because 419 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: I mean we've spoken a number of times about it, 420 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: and it doesn't take three hours for you to say 421 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: what happened? Why did it take that long. 422 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 5: Mainly because he was typing as well. But when I'd 423 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 5: say something, he wanted to know if I saw the 424 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 5: make of the car they drove away, and stuff like that. 425 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 5: So everything got broken down. When I saw the three 426 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 5: people at the front, while were they wearing, how tall 427 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 5: they were and. 428 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: Just be could you remember that for him? 429 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 5: Yes, as I said him, I can shut my eyes 430 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 5: and see and hear what went on, so that wasn't 431 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 5: an issue. But the height of the two guys, because 432 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 5: one was in the gato, one was on a thing, 433 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 5: so it wasn't to me one was taller than the other. 434 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 5: And what they were wearing. Could remember that what were 435 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 5: they wearing? The dark haired guy had jeans and a 436 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 5: brownish reddish jumper on. The fair headed guy was like 437 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 5: in Denham and it looked like a faded Denham top. 438 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 5: The woman he was talking to was shielded behind him, 439 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 5: so I couldn't really see she had pants on. But 440 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 5: that was about it. But from what the other two 441 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 5: were where he is plain as they Then I had 442 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 5: to draw the outline of my house and the insight 443 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 5: the layout say where I was to everything happening. Then 444 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 5: I had to draw the street all the houses and 445 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 5: picture where the people were standing, and meah, do all that. 446 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,479 Speaker 1: And Peter Sellers was happy to do all that pleased 447 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: at The official Easy Street file now contains his account 448 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: of what he heard on the night of the killings 449 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: and what he saw two nights later. But what still 450 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: wasn't clear was what police meant about having spoken to 451 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: missus Coventry. For several weeks I tried to get them 452 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: to explain, and then on December five, twenty twenty two, 453 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: I received another email from the media office. There was 454 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: now quote approval to disclose that police obtained a statement 455 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: from Gladys Coventry on February eleventh, nineteen seventy eight. Unquote. 456 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: It hadn't gone to the coroner, they added, as it 457 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: was obviously obtained after the inquest, but her statement could 458 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: not be provided. Quote we have approval for release of 459 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,239 Speaker 1: certain information given its an active investigation. This is our 460 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: public position unquote. Again, it remains unclear if detectives spoke 461 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: to missus Coventry at all on the day the two 462 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: suess were found, or if they only took a statement 463 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: from her after she spoke with Truth thirteen months later. 464 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: But given her clear description of a tall man with 465 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: dark brown hair in the house next door. Why wasn't 466 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: even more made of this publicly? Why wasn't a sketch 467 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: of this guy posted in all the daily newspaper papers, 468 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: not to mention truth. Then there's a truly menacing figure 469 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: who was apparently never a person of interest in this matter, 470 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: John Joseph Power. He'd been with nineteen year old Julianne 471 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: Garcissela the night she disappeared, just eighteen months earlier in 472 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five. Those who knew Power recall his unsettling 473 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: presence and say he was capable of extreme violence. One 474 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: former lawyer even believed he could well have killed three 475 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: women in two years. In fact, he told me that 476 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: Power was quote a really bad guy, exactly the kind 477 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: of guy who could do something so bad unquote. So 478 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: did detectives ever take a proper look at him in 479 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: relation to Easy Street? Or did the fact that he'd 480 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: been named in the explosive Beach inquiry into allegations of 481 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: police misconduct mean he was off limits to police at 482 00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: the time. Fifteen years after the Easy Street killings, Hour 483 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: was jailed for raping a nineteen year old woman and 484 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: to be fair, his DNA would have long been in 485 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: the system given the amount of time he spent in jail, 486 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: so maybe he was ruled out definitively. Others have certainly 487 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: been tracked by police through the decades, but all to 488 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: no avail. There have been no arrests, no convictions. So 489 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: forty seven years after the murders on Easy Street, nearly 490 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: five decades since Suzanne Armstrong and Susan Bartlett were fatally 491 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: stabbed and young Gregory left alone in his cot, are 492 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: there enough new facts and circumstances to compel a second 493 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: coronial inquest. Former Independent Federal MP Phil Cleary believes so, 494 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: and cites the Maria James case that went to the 495 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: Victorian coroner for a second time in twenty twenty one. 496 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: It shone new light on the original investigation into Maria's death, 497 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: including detective's failure to formally interview Peter Keo, who later 498 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: fatally stabbed Cleary's sister. The new inquiry into Maria James's 499 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: murder was ordered after an application by one of his 500 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: sons that the first coroner's finding be set aside. Karin 501 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: and Caitlin English was damning in her finding, even though 502 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: she couldn't identify Maria James's killer, but she did name 503 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,479 Speaker 1: two men as significant persons of interest, Keo and Catholic 504 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: priest Anthony Bonjono. Not Surprisingly, Phil Cleary is adamant about 505 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: what should happen next in the Easy Street matter. 506 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,719 Speaker 6: It's unbelievable that we haven't been able to solve this crime. 507 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 6: What we know from the Maria James inquest is that 508 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 6: you can unearth a whole lot of fascinating material and 509 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 6: events and facts that throw new light on the killing 510 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 6: of women, which I say has not been properly investigated historically. 511 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 6: So we go to Easy Street people now exploring the 512 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 6: question of DNA. Of course, we should go back and 513 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 6: re visit how DNA was used, and maybe we'll find material, 514 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,479 Speaker 6: maybe we'll discover something about the DNA that does throw 515 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 6: new light on the killing. But also from my perspective, 516 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 6: I continue to say that contemporary inquests for historical acts 517 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 6: of violence are so critical to our understanding. For me, 518 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 6: it's like a truth commission. It enables us to put 519 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 6: a considered more objective light on our failings or the 520 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 6: failings of the past. 521 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: But if a second inquest is ordered, what should it 522 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: look at Professor Stephen Cordner. 523 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 2: Well, look, I think probably at this point you could 524 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 2: reasonably expect a high level of transparency about what investigators 525 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 2: have actually found, so that that gets out a bit 526 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 2: further that might prompt or job people's memories or consciences 527 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 2: to actually do something. I think it's really trying to 528 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 2: get to people out there that might have something to 529 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 2: say that for some reason either haven't been spoken to 530 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 2: or haven't felt like they could share, but could now 531 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 2: be re assured that it's okay, you know, but we 532 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 2: need to hear it before it's all too late. 533 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: Victoria's state coroner will decide whether this happens or not. 534 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: For now, this question remains how long can justice for 535 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: Sue and Suzanne be denied