1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People, What 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 1: did Cool Stuff? I'm your host, Margaret Kildrey, and this 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:13,159 Speaker 1: week I am continuing this ongoing series about neoliberalism and 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: the resistance to it, with a focus on the Zapatistas 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: of Mexico and the ultra globalization movement that sprung up 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: around the turn of the millennium. Today we're talking Zapatistas. Also, 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: I have a producer named Sophie who isn't on the 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: call today. I also have an audio engineer named Eva 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: hi Eva. And our theme music was written for us 10 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: by unwoman. Where we last left our indigenous peasant rebels, 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: they'd broken from their Marxist Leninist roots to become an 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: indigenous led grassroots army. They'd spent ten years preparing to 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: wage war on the Mexican government and the ruling pri Party, 14 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: and on January first, nineteen ninety four, they'd gone and 15 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: started that war. The war blasted twelve days. It ended 16 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: with a stalemate when it became clear that the people 17 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 1: of Mexico supported the Zapatistas in their goals, but weren't 18 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: going to rise up to overthrow the state. Always prepared 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: to listen to the people. The Zapatistas entered into negotiations 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: with the state and moved their focus from war to 21 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: local autonomy. And there's an easy narrative you can draw, 22 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: and as one would expect, the easy narrative is a 23 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: little bit false. You can say that the Zapatistas, they 24 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: became an army, they fought the Mexican government to a standstill, 25 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: and then they put away their guns and now have 26 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: autonomy in Chiapas. And I guess each point of that 27 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: narrative is technically true. They became an army, they declared 28 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: war on Mexico and forced concessions from the government in 29 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: the San Andreas Accords, which is the settlement that they 30 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: signed on February sixteenth, nineteen ninety six. And they do 31 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: maintain more autonomy over their lands than most indigenous groups 32 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: do in the Western hemisphere. But the conflict hasn't ended, 33 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: not even now thirty years later. The Sound and Dress 34 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: Accords agreed to some basic things, more or less boiling 35 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: down to the right to autonomous decision making at the 36 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: local level and local control of natural resources. Basically, leave 37 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: us alone, stop stealing all the shit in our territory, 38 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,399 Speaker 1: which is not the kind of thing. A nation state 39 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 1: usually wants to cede to the people. They usually want 40 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: to be able to control things and be the government. 41 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: That's why they call themselves the government. So as soon 42 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: as the peace accords were signed, the government, as all 43 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: settler governments have done with all agreements with indigenous people 44 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: without any exception I've personally ever found, they just went 45 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: ahead and completely ignored the document that they just signed. 46 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: The Sound and Address Accords didn't matter. The government, and 47 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: this will shock you, pretty quickly started fighting dirty, using 48 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: both formal and informal military forces against the Zapatistas. Zapatistas 49 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: and their supporters put on March after March, especially in Mexico, 50 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: but also all over the world to try to pressure 51 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: the Mexican government to hold to the accords that it 52 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: had fucking signed. I spent a lot of time over 53 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks reading a lot of reflections 54 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: about the Zapatistas from twenty to twenty five years later, 55 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: talking about what they've accomplished in the area, and one 56 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: thing stands out. For a very very long time, the 57 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: autonomous territories managed to keep organized crime like cartels and 58 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: shit out of their area and in Mexico. This is 59 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: a really big deal. It wasn't easy. They're also losing 60 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: ground in the past few years, but we'll talk about 61 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: that more later. Pretty much immediately after the Zapatistas declared autonomy, 62 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: the government, in order to crush the Zapatistas started arming 63 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: and empowering paramilitary groups in the area. These aren't even 64 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: like the cartels. These are presented as loyalists. They're just 65 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: we want the ruling Prii party to be in charge, 66 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: large enthusiasts who are armed, and maybe the most dramatic 67 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: example of that I have found is the Acatil massacre 68 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety seven. Akatil is this tiny town in 69 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: Chiappas that was home to a Catholic pacifist indigenous rights 70 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: group called Lasa Behas the Bees, which I believe is 71 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: still around and is the first cool people that I'm 72 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: going to focus on this week. This group got their 73 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: start in nineteen ninety two over a land dispute. I've 74 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: read so many accounts of this now and it is 75 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: very confusing, and it is confusingly written because people have 76 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: simplified it in different ways that leave out different important 77 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: parts of it. All over the place. But basically there 78 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: was this guy, I think he was associated with the Prii, 79 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: the ruling party, and he thought he owned some land. 80 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: His nephew was an activist and he thought that the 81 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: land was communally owned. Became a big whole community argument, 82 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: and a group of indigenous pacifists Catholics were like, let's 83 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: settle this peacefully and communally, and they formed a group 84 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: called the Bees, based on how bees live and work 85 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: together collectively. As soon as they formed this pacifist group, 86 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: like the next day, someone who supported the owner, the 87 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: guy who thought he owned the land. Someone who supported 88 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: him went and shot the nephew and two other nephews 89 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 1: for good measure, killing one of the nephews. Five of 90 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: the local residents, who I believe were Bees, called for 91 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: an ambulance for the survivors, but instead of an ambulance, 92 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: cops came and the five people were sent to jail, 93 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: ostensibly because they were being blamed for the violence, but 94 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: actually it was just because of the underlying politics of 95 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: the whole thing. And so the Bees had their first 96 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: campaign free those five people. They went on a pilgrimage 97 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: or a march, depending on the political position of the piece. 98 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: That you read about it in Leasas don't like calling 99 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: things pilgrimages. Everyone is obsessively secular in both means stream 100 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: media and leftist media. But I am under the impression 101 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: that they presented this as a pilgrimage that they went on. 102 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: Maybe five thousand people joined that march, and the state 103 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: was like, all right, fine, we'll let these five innocent 104 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: men go. Geez, what's this big fuss about? And so 105 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: they succeeded at their first thing. Well, I don't actually 106 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: know how the land dispute shook out in the end. 107 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: So that's the bees. They're liberation theologist, indigenous rights groups 108 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 1: trying to make the world a better place than Chiapas, 109 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: which means that they're down with the Zapatistas. But they're 110 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: not actually Zapatistas themselves, because they're pacifists and the Zapatistas are, 111 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: you know, an army. The two groups are allied instead. 112 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: But when all of these loyalist paramilitaries started getting armed 113 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: in the outskirts of Zapatista territory, people started getting displaced 114 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: awful fast because all of these paramilitaries are going around 115 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: and you know, being shitty, and everyone has to fl 116 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: maybe six thousand or so people were displaced in a 117 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: couple months in nineteen ninety seven, and many of them 118 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: found refuge among the bees, including in the village of Akatil. 119 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: The right wing are famously cowards. Fascism, for example, is 120 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: a coward's ideology. You feel big and strong by stamping 121 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: on the weekend defenseless, but run from a fair fight. 122 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: That's the fascist way. The loyalists weren't fascists. They were 123 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: just awful monsters of their own sort, and they were cowards, 124 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: at least from my position. They were also desperate people 125 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: offered a chance to suck up to the government. I guess, 126 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: depending on how you look at it. Most of the 127 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: paramilitaries themselves were indigenous people, but their motto seemed to 128 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: become like only loyal indigenous people should be allowed to exist, 129 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: Like I think literally, they were basically saying that while 130 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: killing people. And I call them cowards because they went 131 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: and they found a target that they knew wouldn't fight 132 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: back and they fucking massacred them. On December twenty second, 133 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, around sixty paramilitaries went into the town 134 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: of Aktil with masks and aks. While people were gathered 135 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: at mass and the gunman spent six hours hunting people 136 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: down in the village and slaughtering them. They did all 137 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: kinds of shit that I'm not going to say on air, 138 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: of the sexual violence variety, and of violence against the 139 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: unborn variety. It's bad. If you want to read about it, 140 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: you can. There's sources in my show notes and survivors 141 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: of this massacre are really upfront about what happened. They're 142 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 1: not afraid to talk about it. And these people were 143 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: killed for being leftists, for being allied with the Zapatistas. 144 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: One survivor describes making it to the woods where she 145 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: was taken in and cared for by Zapatista women from 146 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: a nearby camp. Forty five people died that day, all 147 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: of them unarmed, many of them children. Meanwhile, the cops 148 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: were stationed about two hundred meters away at a local 149 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 1: school and just ignored the entire thing. Some people were 150 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: arrested and for this massacre and spent about a decade 151 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: in prison, while others have been named but remained free. 152 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: And of the people who were arrested, an awful lot 153 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: of them maintain their innocence, and a lot of activist 154 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: groups agree. It seems very likely that most of the 155 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: people who went to prison for this were scapegoaded by 156 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: the government to avoid getting the actual perpetrators of this 157 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: crime in trouble because they were loyal to the government. 158 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: The people of Akatil do a reenactment of the massacre 159 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: every year. An article in slate dot com put it 160 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: quote villagers see the ritual retelling of their story as essential, 161 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: not only as a way to pay respect to the 162 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: martyrs who helped bring global visibility to the guerrilla war 163 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: in Chiappas, but also as a reminder to those who 164 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: remain in power that the horrors that took place here 165 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: will not be erased from history. And because the survivors 166 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: won't shut up about this coming on third years later, 167 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: the state keeps offering them a quote friendly solution aka 168 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: a cash payout, being like, well, you shut up about this, 169 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: will give you some money. And the survivors, at least 170 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: the ones that I've read about, refuse this. What they 171 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: want is the state to recognize it's culpability in the 172 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: massacre and charge the people who armed and encouraged the 173 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: loyalist paramilitaries. And I believe you know the actual people 174 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: who carried it out, And I don't know everything about 175 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,719 Speaker 1: the time and place in context about this gorilla war. 176 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: I read a decent bit about it, but there's so 177 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: much more to know, so I can't say this for sure, 178 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: but it absolutely looks to me like the paramilitaries did 179 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: this to a katiel because they knew the bees were 180 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: Pacifist and they were too chicken shit to head into 181 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: Zapatista territory. There had been limited attacks on Zapatistas, but 182 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: nothing on the same scale. That doesn't make the pacifist 183 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: morally wrong or misguided to not have been armed to 184 00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: defend themselves. It's just a thing to remember. Some gun 185 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: rights people here in the United States say things like 186 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: in armed society is a polite society, and this is 187 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: statistically untrue. The more small arms there is in a community, 188 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: the more that regular violence becomes gun violence. But as 189 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: I read history, a thing that I see again and 190 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: again is that an armed group is often afforded more 191 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: respect than an unarmed group. It's not that internally a 192 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: group is safer while armed, it's probably the opposite, But 193 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: in terms of external threats, well, there's a reason the 194 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: Mexican state was willing to negotiate with the Zapatistas, and 195 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: it wasn't because the Zapatistas asked nicely. But that said, 196 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: the Bees lost forty five of their members in a 197 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: horrific act of violence, but the group continued. They accepting 198 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: that this kind of thing and teaching forgiveness and response 199 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: to it is a core part of many Pacifist teachings, 200 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: including theirs, and they teach an indigenous theology that syncretizes 201 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: Catholicism with Mayan beliefs, and as best as I can 202 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: sort out, they continue to fight for indigenous rights, land, sovereignty, 203 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: and all the good shit. But speaking of good shit, 204 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: there's a bunch of ads for stuff which may or 205 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: may not be good shit. It might be regular shit. 206 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: Who am I to say, That's up to you to decide. 207 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: That's freedom, baby. You can decide whether or not these 208 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: ads are good. And we're back. The Zapatiste has kept 209 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: going to of course, the state made another offensive into 210 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: Zapatista territory in nineteen ninety eight when they attacked three 211 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: territories to arrest local leaders and including one territory named 212 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: after the anarchist and veteran of the pod Ricardo Flores mcgon, 213 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: And just while I'm bringing up mcgon, I'm currently on 214 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: the coolsone Media book Club reading a bunch of mcgon's 215 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: fiction about revolution. If you want to hear that he 216 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: wrote a lot anyway, he was from a long time ago. 217 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: He was from before the Mexican Revolution. His big uprisings 218 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: were like very early nineteen tens and stuff. You can 219 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: listen to our whole podcast episode about it if you 220 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: want so. The Zapatista's named a territory after mcgone, and 221 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: the state comes in and they smash up municipal offices, 222 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: they beat random civilians, they arrest whoever they want. They're 223 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: resting dozens of people, and in response to this, the 224 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: Zapatista has actually refused to counterattack in a military fashion. 225 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: They're not trying to go back into a hot war 226 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: because they have a pretty strong mandate from the people. 227 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: They're not supposed to be declaring war, but instead building alternatives. 228 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 1: Though that said, at least in one of these government raids, 229 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: the raiders, the government was met with gunfire. In June 230 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, when the government invaded the community of 231 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: San Juan Dey liber Todd and one of the main 232 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: things that I want to talk about today. We're going 233 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: to talk about their governing structure and stuff too in 234 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: a bit, but I want to talk more about who 235 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: the Zapatistas were politically, because everyone's always trying to kind 236 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: of put them in different categories and things, but we 237 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: can actually understand them on their own terms. I think 238 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: what they did and what they do is the clearest 239 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: way to understand them, And by and large, outside observers 240 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: use the broad label libertarian socialists to describe them, not 241 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: even as like a definition for them, but like as 242 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: the most useful way to describe them. The Zapatisas want 243 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: bottom up democracy, and they want community ownership and like 244 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: worker cooperatives and all that stuff. But broadly speaking, they 245 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: tend to reject labels, at least as a group. Like 246 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: just now, when we talk about the territories that they've named, 247 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: they've got one named after the indigenous anarchist Ricardo Floris mcgon, 248 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: And this man was not a fan of religion. He 249 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: wrote extensively about how the three pillars, the three heads 250 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: of the hydra of oppression, were authority, capital, and religion. 251 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: And the Zappetiss have a territory named after him, and 252 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: they have another named after Saint Juan Diego, who was 253 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: the first indigenous North American saint. But these things aren't contradictory. 254 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: Their lack of labeling besides Zapatismo has led to some confusion, 255 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: and they've addressed this confusion a few times in different 256 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: ways over the years as they've evolved, because who they 257 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: were thirty years ago is not who they were now. 258 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: Who they are forty years ago is very different. One 259 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: of the first interviews that their spokesperson, Subcommadante Marcos ever 260 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: gave at least one of the first interviews that I found, 261 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: was in May nineteen ninety four, and it was with 262 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: anarchists from various federations and such throughout I believe Mexico. 263 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: In it, the interviewers quote another easy Elen officer who's unnamed, 264 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: who said, quote, we are not Marxists, nor are we gorillas. 265 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: We are Zapatistas, and we are an army which look 266 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: fucking goes hard. We talked last week a little bit 267 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: about how the Zapatista started off more traditional Marxist Leninists 268 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: and then changed to indigenous ways. Marcos describes that in 269 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: this interview, he says, quote, there began a confrontation, a 270 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: relationship of convenience between two ways of making decisions. On 271 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: one hand, there was the initial proposal of the e ZLN, 272 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: a completely undemocratic and authoritarian proposal, as undemocratic and authoritarian 273 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: as an army can be, since an army is the 274 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: most authoritarian thing in this world and also the most 275 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: absurd in that one single person can decide the life 276 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: and death of his subordinates. On the other hand, there 277 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: was the indigenous tradition that before the conquest was a 278 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: way of life, and that after the conquest became their 279 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: only way of surviving. In other words, the communities isolated 280 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: cornered saw themselves obligated to defend themselves collectively, to live collectively, 281 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: to govern themselves collectively. And I like this quote a 282 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: lot because they're like I was talking about how, yes, 283 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: there's this indigenous method of collective decision making and working together, 284 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: but that it's not like before conquest everything was like 285 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: perfect and you know, absolutely utopian, and everyone was totally 286 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: working together. But rather that that is the seed that 287 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,479 Speaker 1: after conquest became their only way of surviving, was that 288 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: they drew upon their own history of collective decision making 289 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 1: in collective governance in order to survive, and then Marcos 290 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: goes on to explain this method quote, the isolation of 291 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: the indigenous communities provoke the development of another type of state, 292 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: a state to deal with the survival of the collective. 293 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: Of a democratic collective. With these two characteristics, the leadership 294 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: is collective and it is removable at any moment if 295 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: you hold a position in the community, First, the community 296 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: has to have appointed you, independent of your political affiliation. 297 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: The community can remove you. There isn't a fixed term 298 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: that you have to complete. The moment that the community 299 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: begins to see that you are failing in your duties, 300 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: that you are having problems, they sit you down in 301 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: front of the community and they begin to tell you 302 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: what you have done wrong. You defend yourself, and finally 303 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,479 Speaker 1: the community, the collective, the majority, decides what they are 304 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 1: going to do with you. He talked about how the 305 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: way that the Zapatistas determined their ideas isn't about one 306 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: ideology at war with other ideologies, but in conversation with 307 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: each other, and more importantly, in conversation with people, different 308 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: ideas should be put forth and tried and discussed among 309 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: all the people, whether it is to quote Marcos again 310 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: quote a Trotskyite proposal, a Maoist proposal, an anarchist proposal, 311 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: or proposals from Gueveraists or the Castristas or the existentialists, 312 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 1: or whatever issts you might think of end quote. One 313 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: ideology shouldn't try and exterminate the others, but instead quote 314 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: the people have to decide what proposal to accept, and 315 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: it's the people you have to convince that your opinion 316 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: is correct. This will radically change the concept of revolution, 317 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,719 Speaker 1: of who the revolutionary class and what a revolutionary organization 318 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: is end quote. And that the government has quote a 319 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: vision for the country that they have imposed on the 320 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 1: people with the arms of the federal army. We cannot 321 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: reverse the logic and say that now the Zapatista vision 322 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: is going to be imposed with the arms of the 323 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: Zapatista army. And do you know what else is imposed 324 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: through force of arms? I don't know, probably not. Our 325 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: ads those are because we all like eating, including me, 326 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: and including all the people who make the show possible, 327 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: so which actually includes the sponsors. Life is complicated, politics 328 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: is complicated. Here's the ads, and we're back. Despite the 329 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: Sapatiste has actually been pretty clear about what they do, 330 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: if not what labels apply to them, outsiders have continued 331 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: to argue about exactly what they are and what slot 332 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: to put them in. At some point, probably two thousand 333 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: and one or two thousand and two, a North American 334 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: anarchist journal called Green Anarchy published a critical article called 335 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: the easy ln are not Anarchists? With not in all caps. 336 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: This is the kind of thing of the easy Eleen 337 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: really really easily could have ignored. But some Zapatista sat 338 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: down and wrote a response which is frankly more than 339 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: the article deserved. They say that quote the article entitled 340 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: the easy Len is not Anarchist reflected such a colonialist 341 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: attitude of arrogant ignorance. Several of us decided to write 342 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: a response to you. Our political and military body encompasses 343 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: a wide range of belief systems from a wide range 344 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: of cultures and cannot be defined under a narrow ideological microscope. 345 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: There are anarchists in our midst just as there are 346 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: Catholics and Communists and followers of Centaia. We are Indians 347 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: in the countryside and workers in the city. We are 348 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: politicians in office and homeless children on the street. We 349 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: are gay and straight, male and female, wealthy and poor. 350 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: What we have in common is a love for our 351 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: families and our homelands. What we have in common is 352 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: a desire to make things better for ourselves and our country. 353 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: None of this can be accomplished if we are to 354 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: build walls of words and abstract ideas around ourselves. And 355 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: the rest of the piece is pretty amazing too, if 356 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: you want to read an indigenous critique not of anarchism, 357 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: but of folks from the US trying to tell this 358 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: Zapatista is how they should fight. I liked quote your 359 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: article used compromise as though it were a profanity for us. 360 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: It is the glue that holds us all together in 361 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: a common struggle. Without these compromises that allow us to 362 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 1: work together, we would be nowhere, lonely slaves waiting to 363 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: be exploited, just like we have been in the past. 364 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: That said, by two thousand and five, the Zapatista has 365 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: released a statement to clarify their political position a little bit. 366 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: They are explicitly anti capitalist and they see themselves as 367 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: coming from quote below and to the left, which means 368 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: essentially libertarian socialism, again not as a word to label 369 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: them with, but as like the broadest applicable category to 370 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: understand it. I believe they want anti capitalism that comes 371 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: from the grassroots, rather than working with state institutions, political parties, 372 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: or vanguards. As of that declaration, they also occasionally run 373 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 1: political candidates and shit, you know, they're really not into 374 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: getting pigeonholed tactically. By twenty eleven, Subcondidante Marcos wrote a 375 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: piece called I Shit on all the revolutionary vanguards of 376 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: this planet. A revolutionary vanguard, for context, is the Marxist 377 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: belief that the way to create a revolution is for 378 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: a small group of revolutionaries to decide how to have 379 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: a revolution and lead everyone else towards the revolution, in 380 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: contrast to the anti authoritarian models that are about working 381 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: with the will of the people. It's hard to say 382 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: things like the Zapatistas believe about this or that issue, 383 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: because you're talking about thirty years and you're talking about 384 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: three hundred thousand people who are radically democratic. But I 385 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: did find in that interview with Marcos from nineteen ninety 386 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: four an awful lot about their early feminism, from the 387 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: very beginning the easy LN has included women in its 388 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: ranks and leadership best as I understand. We talked about 389 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: the Law of Women last week that they instituted. One 390 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: of the first big democratic projects they did was having 391 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 1: people go around and agree that they're going to do 392 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: some serious feminism. The Law of Women states that women 393 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: are the equal of men in all respects, including family planning. 394 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: In the easy LN, the military people had access to 395 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: condoms and birth control. Marcos admitted in the interview that 396 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: in a way, women in the military were only half 397 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: free because they had the right to choose not to 398 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: have children, but if they got pregnant and decided to 399 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: stay pregnant, they had to leave the military while they 400 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: were pregnant. Most would go down the mountain into the 401 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: villages to seek termination. The sexual politics of the military 402 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: were interesting. I have no recent information to compare it to, 403 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: so that's just how it was in nineteen ninety four. 404 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: But I think it's just like an interesting look at 405 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 1: how a anti authoritarian military, well an anti authoritarian society's military, 406 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: which is authoritarian but is trying to be as a 407 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 1: galitarian as possible, how they chose to handle some stuff. 408 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,239 Speaker 1: Anyone who wanted to sleep together, had to tell their 409 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: commanding officer who they were sleeping with. And I believe 410 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: when and where this was for military efficiency. If they 411 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: were attacked, the commander needed to know who was fucking 412 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: and wasn't going to be quickly available. Interestingly, and maybe 413 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: this is only interesting to me as a history nerd 414 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,479 Speaker 1: who finds the war history interesting, it seems like the 415 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: co ed nature of the military and the lack of 416 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: ban on fraternization meant that they had fewer problems with 417 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: STIs than many other militaries have had because people were 418 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 1: sleeping with the romantic partners by and large. Also, Marcus 419 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: talks about just like their actual physical isolation in the 420 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: jungles being part of why they didn't have as many 421 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: problems with STIs. The interviewers also asked to Marco's point 422 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: blank about homophobia within Zapatista society. This was interesting to 423 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: me because when I was coming up in politics talking 424 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: to folks who spent time in Chiapas, they talked about this. 425 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: The Zapatista line has always been one hundred percent consistent. 426 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: The Zappatistas are pro gay, pro sex worker, pro trans. 427 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 1: They organize along transsex workers in the cities and hold 428 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: up people's freedom to be whoever they are. A friend 429 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: of mine back in probably two thousand and five or 430 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: so said that when he was in Chiapas, there was 431 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: sort of a distinction between what we said publicly and 432 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: how things were on the ground in these small traditional villages. 433 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: He'd asked one woman what she thought about gay couples, 434 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: and she asked him to explain what that meant. He did, 435 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: and her response was basically, oh, that's silly. Again, this 436 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: was decades ago and is absolutely just an anecdote, But 437 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: those interviewers asked Marcos about this in nineteen ninety four, 438 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: and he was fairly forthcoming of what the Zapatistas, who 439 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: are themselves indigenous, want to do flies in the face 440 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: of some indigenous social norms around the role of women 441 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: and men and things like homosexuality. They talk openly about 442 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: how while they are indigenous people taking a lot of 443 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: cues from their history and culture, they're also looking to 444 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: change parts of their culture too. Marcos was clear that 445 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: in traditional societies there there was absolutely no law against 446 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: homosexuality and no punishment for people who are homosexual, that 447 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: people weren't arrested, but that many gay people were picked 448 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: on or mocked and then accepted within their communities. Within 449 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: the military, queerness was much more institutionally accepted. The only 450 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: rule about who you fuck is you have to tell 451 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: your commanding officer so that they know who is and 452 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: isn't combat ready. So it was with this open anti 453 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: ideology of grassroots participatory democracy that they began to build 454 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: their autonomy and what that autonomy looked like. And I 455 00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: think the details about this shit are going to be 456 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: interesting to you. We're going to talk about it on Wednesday. 457 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: And yeah, I don't actually have too much to plug 458 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: here at the end of this. If you want to 459 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 1: hear mcgon's fiction, I do a reading of it, and 460 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: I don't know, go to build autonomy with people and 461 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: learn what that means collectively, and don't be like, this 462 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: is the way the Zapatistas do it, so we have 463 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: to do it the same way. Instead. The thing to 464 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: copy is there ideas of how to find out what 465 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 1: the ideas of your area are, and my idea is 466 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: to be done recording for now. Cool People Who Did 467 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media. For 468 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website. Coolzonemedia 469 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 470 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.