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Speaker 1: Hello everybody. I am Robert Evans, and this is yet

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Speaker 1: again Behind the Bastards, the show where we tell you

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Speaker 1: everything you don't know about the very worst people in

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Speaker 1: all of history. Now, my guest for part two of

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Speaker 1: this episode on phrenology is Josh Clark, who was with

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Speaker 1: me last time as well. Josh, you're the host of

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Speaker 1: Stuff You Should Know and uh, the new host of

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Speaker 1: End of the World. How are you doing today? A man,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing good. How are you? I'm good, I'm good.

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Speaker 1: This has just been minutes after we recorded part one,

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Speaker 1: but sometimes we pretend it's a different day. Um oh,

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Speaker 1: I was going to keep going with it, but yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just a few minutes later. Yeah, just just a

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Speaker 1: few minutes later. Nothing's changed except for now it's part two. Uh,

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Speaker 1: so I'm gonna get into it. When we last left

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Speaker 1: the science of phrenology, it had spread like wildfire throughout

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Speaker 1: the United States and later Europe. Colonialism really got going

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Speaker 1: in the mid eighteen hundreds, and phrenology helped to provide

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Speaker 1: the scientific justification behind the so called white man's burden. Now,

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Speaker 1: most of you have probably at least heard that term. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You may have read the weird Kipling poem of the

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Speaker 1: same name um Now. Kipling wrote that poem white Man's Burden,

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Speaker 1: in and his goal with it was to essentially urge

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Speaker 1: the United States on in our brutal conquest of the

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Speaker 1: Philippine Islands, during which over two thousand civilians died. The

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Speaker 1: fingerprints of phrenologic thought are all over Kipling's poem. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna read an excerpt from that poem. Take up the

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Speaker 1: white Man's Burden, Send forth the best, ye breed, Go

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Speaker 1: send your sons to exile, to serve your captives, need

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Speaker 1: to wait in heavy harness, on fluttered folk and wild

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Speaker 1: Your new caught, sullen people's half devil and half child.

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Speaker 1: So you might notice a similarity between sort of the

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Speaker 1: thinking in this poem and the thinking behind our old

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Speaker 1: friend Dr Charles Caldwell. So Kipling in this poem is

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Speaker 1: not enthusiastic in the traditional propagandistic sense about the idea

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Speaker 1: of colonialism. He's not portraying it is all sunshine and roses.

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Speaker 1: He's not pretending it's this wonderful fun thing. It's go

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Speaker 1: send your sons to exile. You know. He compares the

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Speaker 1: people they're conquering as captives. He's not pretending it's this

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Speaker 1: bright and fluffy thing. Instead, he's saying it's a necessary duty.

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Speaker 1: It's a duty that white men have, right. So that's

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Speaker 1: the way he's angling this. So again, you've got this

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Speaker 1: terrible thing going on, colonialism, which is by this period

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Speaker 1: already killed tens of millions of people, particularly in India,

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Speaker 1: and been behind a couple of different genocides. And so

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Speaker 1: instead of just saying we deserve these territories because we

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Speaker 1: want to conquer them, Kipling is essentially saying this is

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Speaker 1: our duty, and it's an unpleasant duty. It's just something

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Speaker 1: we have to do because we're such good people. I'm

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Speaker 1: just I'm very interested in that. So another section from

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Speaker 1: poem kind of gives, i think a little bit more

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Speaker 1: direct evidence of phrenologies impact on Kipling. Take up the

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Speaker 1: white man's burden and reap his old reward. The blame

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Speaker 1: of those e better, the hate of those ye guard,

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Speaker 1: the cry of hosty humor, Ah slowly to the light,

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Speaker 1: why brought key us from bondage, our loved Egyptian night.

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Speaker 1: So again he's saying, the people that we're conquering are

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Speaker 1: in capable of raising themselves up to civilization. Now he's

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Speaker 1: not saying it's because of the shape of their skull,

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Speaker 1: but he's clearly bought into the scientific logic of the day,

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Speaker 1: which is basically saying, these are fundamentally different races, and

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Speaker 1: in order for them to become civilized and to gain

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Speaker 1: access to wonderful Western science and technology, we have to

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Speaker 1: conquer them. You know, That's that's the thinking, and that's

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Speaker 1: going on in Kepling's head. You know, I read an article,

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Speaker 1: I think in Nautilus magazine not too long ago, and

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Speaker 1: it was about how, um, the South was planning on

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Speaker 1: globalizing slavery. They were planning on bringing it to Latin America,

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Speaker 1: South America, and they one of the ways they justified

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Speaker 1: it was that kind of thinking that that if they

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Speaker 1: freed their slaves, they wouldn't know what to do with themselves.

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Speaker 1: They had to be taken care of. And dare they

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Speaker 1: say that they enjoyed being slaves? That was kind of

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Speaker 1: one of the ways that it was. Um, it was justified,

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Speaker 1: I guess, yeah. Yeah. And and and Keppling saying the

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Speaker 1: same thing, you know that why brought us from bondage.

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Speaker 1: I loved Egyptian night. They enjoy being sort of tramped

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Speaker 1: down in this way, and and Kipling there. It's not

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Speaker 1: so different for Kipling to say that, like, these people's

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Speaker 1: need to be brought into the light than it is

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Speaker 1: for Dr Caldwell to say that certain races must have

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Speaker 1: a master. Like. They're not the same thing because Kipling

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Speaker 1: didn't believe in slavery. Obviously he was not a supporter

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Speaker 1: of slavery, but you can see the intellectual through line

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Speaker 1: in their thoughts. So colonialism in Africa kicked off officially

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Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty four with the Berlin Conference. Now, the

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Speaker 1: Berlin Conference was part of a scheme by our old

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Speaker 1: friend and bastard pod subject, King Leopold of Belgium. He

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Speaker 1: basically wangled his way into creating this conference in order

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Speaker 1: to secure his own domination of the Congo. Now, thirty

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Speaker 1: five years before that, an American medical doctor named Not

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Speaker 1: gave a lecture where he used cutting edge phrenological science

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Speaker 1: in order to justify colonialism. This is before colonialism had

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Speaker 1: really kicked off into its highest state that it didn't

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Speaker 1: like the late eighteen hundreds. He stated that, quote, the

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Speaker 1: deep rooted intellectual and physical difference is seen around us

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Speaker 1: in the white red and black races are too obvious

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Speaker 1: and too important in their bearings to be longer overlooked.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Not claimed that each of these races was fundamentally

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Speaker 1: different and had no common ancestors between them. As a result,

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Speaker 1: it was impossible for Africans or anyone else not currently

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Speaker 1: tooling around with rifles and steamboats to reach civilization on

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Speaker 1: their own Africa, and her quote, fifty millions of blacks

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Speaker 1: would have to be civilized. Now, I can't speak to

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Speaker 1: how influential that particular speech by doctor Not might have been,

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Speaker 1: but it was emblematic of the common attitudes of the era.

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Speaker 1: Thirty six years after that speech, President Grover Cleveland would

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Speaker 1: be the first world leader to recognize King Leopold's Congo

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Speaker 1: Free State, which was basically just a giant rubber plantation

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Speaker 1: that ran on human blood. Uh. The fact that colonialism

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Speaker 1: ought to also be a for profit enterprise was taken

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Speaker 1: for granted by many people at the time. The three

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Speaker 1: seas of colonialism were civilization, Christianity, and commerce. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: that Christianity takes the second position there. Um, I guess

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Speaker 1: good that they put it in front of commerce. But

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Speaker 1: now there were men who were colonialists who had legitly

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Speaker 1: good hearts, uh, and who thought that what they were

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Speaker 1: doing was making the world better. One of these men

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Speaker 1: was the British doctor Ronald Ross. He was one of

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Speaker 1: the very first people to have access to like a

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Speaker 1: microscope and try to study stuff like malaria with a

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Speaker 1: microscope to figure out like what the fund is going

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Speaker 1: on with this disease that you know, for a little

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Speaker 1: bit of perspective, scientists suspect that malaria has killed more

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Speaker 1: human beings than any other single cause throughout human history. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's I mean, obviously there's no but it is believed

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Speaker 1: to be the leading cause of death for humans and

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Speaker 1: the length of our species life. Like, I'm sure this

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Speaker 1: guy wanted to know what was going on that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So he's a decent man who's trying to and he

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Speaker 1: sees European medical technology, especially now that we have like

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Speaker 1: microscopes and stuff, as a gift to the uncivilizable peoples

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Speaker 1: of the Empire, and he believed that their brains would

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Speaker 1: not let them develop good medicine, so it was a

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Speaker 1: kindness for Europe to take them over and introduce them

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Speaker 1: to stuff like stethoscopes. Now, Ross devoted an enormous amount

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Speaker 1: of effort to study malaria and Sierra Leone, which was

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Speaker 1: a dangerous and risky thing. So he is risking his

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Speaker 1: life to try to save people. He's also a colonialist

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Speaker 1: and a racist. Again, this is complicated. Morality is complicated.

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Speaker 1: In a December report, he wrote, quote, in the coming century,

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Speaker 1: the success of imperialism will depend largely upon success with

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Speaker 1: the microscope. Now, not all of that was because, of course,

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Speaker 1: he wanted to help the local peoples. A lot of

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Speaker 1: it was the acknowledgement that white people in places like

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Speaker 1: Africa died like crazy from the local diseases. So he

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Speaker 1: was also acknowledging that, like, we need to get better

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Speaker 1: at science and medical science in order to survive in

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Speaker 1: these places we're trying to conquer. Well, you can't, you

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Speaker 1: can't have much commerce of the people over there, colonizing.

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Speaker 1: I can't stay alive, you know, yeah, exactly. So science

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Speaker 1: was really one of the major underlying foundations of colonialism

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Speaker 1: at its height. Uh as I said, this was a

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Speaker 1: time when microscopes were starting to become available widely, and

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Speaker 1: this is also a time in which germ theory is

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Speaker 1: first beginning to be puzzled out and tied to the

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Speaker 1: very real and remarkable success of Western medicine was the

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Speaker 1: very bogus and bullshit science of phrenology, but reinforced each other.

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Speaker 1: Sir Francis Galton, one of the founding fathers of eugenics,

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Speaker 1: borrowed terms from phrenology when he stated, quote the average

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Speaker 1: intellectual standard of the Negro racism two grades below our

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Speaker 1: own Anglo saxon. Charles Darwin, who rejected phrenology, is essentially

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Speaker 1: hoke um, also believed that the quote savage races like

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Speaker 1: the Negro or the Australian were closer to apes than

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Speaker 1: white Western men souven people who rejected phrenology have clearly

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Speaker 1: taken up some of its its terminology because this idea

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Speaker 1: of categorizing races in that way of saying, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: this race is two grades higher than that, like speaking

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Speaker 1: about human races like their D and D classes or whatever. Um,

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Speaker 1: that didn't really exist before phrenology. That was the first

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Speaker 1: time people started doing it. So even when a guy

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Speaker 1: like Darwin, who is clearly intelligent enough to know phrenology

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Speaker 1: is nonsense, it still winds up using, you know, some

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Speaker 1: of the terms that it created. So uh, the horrific

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Speaker 1: racism you know behind phrenology lead to totalitarian nonsense in

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Speaker 1: many colonized nations. Since Europeans felt like they knew so

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Speaker 1: much more than the races they were captured, They felt

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Speaker 1: like they owed it to their subjects to limit what

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Speaker 1: their subjects could eat, where they could travel, and to

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Speaker 1: attempt to force them to behave in certain ways for

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Speaker 1: the benefit of their health. Historian David Arnold calls this

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Speaker 1: colonization of the body, and it went way beyond legislation

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Speaker 1: of the diets of captive people. And that brings us

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Speaker 1: to the Great nation slash continent of Australia and the

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Speaker 1: thriving trade of non white people's corpses that kicked off

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Speaker 1: starting in the mid eighteen thirties. So the first really

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Speaker 1: really big merchant of human skulls for phrenological research in

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Speaker 1: Australia was a guy named Thomas Mitchell. He was an

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Speaker 1: explorer and a surveyor in New South Wales. And you know,

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Speaker 1: at this time, being an explorer means you run into

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Speaker 1: contact with unfriendly local peoples on a regular basis, which

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Speaker 1: means that you're shooting unfriendly local people on a regular basis,

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Speaker 1: and so Mitchell decides, well, while I'm killing all these

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Speaker 1: Aboriginal peoples, might as well take the skin off their

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Speaker 1: skulls and sell their skulls for some extra cash. So

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Speaker 1: this is yeah, commerce exactly, it's number three. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's all there. So whenever Mitchell murdered an Aboriginal Australian,

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Speaker 1: he would de skin the man or woman's skeleton and

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Speaker 1: essentially sell the parts. In some cases, the body parts

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Speaker 1: became sought after antiquities in colonial homesteads, but many of

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Speaker 1: them were sold to medical schools, hospitals, and colleges across

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Speaker 1: the Western world. If your university bought any skulls in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds or early nineteen hundreds, there's a very

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Speaker 1: good chance Major Mitchell or someone like him provided those

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Speaker 1: skulls for profit via murder. Throughout the late eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: Australia serviced an enormous demand for the bones and particularly

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Speaker 1: the skulls for indigenous people. Modern estimates suggest that as

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Speaker 1: many as nine hundred different Indigenous Australians are still owned

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Speaker 1: by schools in the UK, Germany, France, the United States,

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Speaker 1: and other Western nations. So again, some of the body

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Speaker 1: parts this guy collected via murder are still being used

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Speaker 1: to teach students today. You know, I've heard that a

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Speaker 1: lot of those articulated skeletons are from rob Graves even today. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I believe India is a pretty big supplier of those.

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Speaker 1: But I had not heard that a lot of the

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Speaker 1: skulls had come from murdered people. I usually it was

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Speaker 1: Rob Graves that I had run into. That is super dark,

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Speaker 1: and it's also very common for people too, because once

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Speaker 1: guys like Mitchell prove how much of a market there is,

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Speaker 1: people will start, you know, an Aboriginal person dies and

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Speaker 1: is buried and then they'll dig up. So grave robbing

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Speaker 1: is probably more of these than outright murder, because it's

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Speaker 1: just easier to steal a dead body, you know. But

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Speaker 1: it's both. There's definitely a lot of murder going on. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The bad news or good news, depending on how you

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Speaker 1: look at it, is that not all of the people

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Speaker 1: whose bones got sent to universities were murdered before having

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Speaker 1: the remains desecrated. Quote. Some of the other remains held

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Speaker 1: on the boxes at Mitchell belonged to Indigenous Australians who

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Speaker 1: died in colonial institutions, jails, hospitals and asylums and scarcely

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Speaker 1: cold were anatomized, a benign term for butchery. Thousands more

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Speaker 1: who might have died naturally and remained buried were exhumed

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Speaker 1: in muss That's what I was just talking about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: anatomized as a nice term for stealing someone's bones. We

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Speaker 1: did a live show of Stuff you Should Know, live

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Speaker 1: show on grave robbing um in London and it was

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Speaker 1: a really crazy time. Medicine was certainly advanced by it,

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Speaker 1: but there was a lot of stolen cadavers, just a

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Speaker 1: huge trade in it. Yeah, and that that is one

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Speaker 1: of those ones where it's not like a clear right

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Speaker 1: or wrong thing, because it's like, if we were robots,

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Speaker 1: we would be like, oh, of course everyone's bones should

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Speaker 1: be used for science, why does it matter? But we're not,

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Speaker 1: and it's messed up. But also science was advanced by it.

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Speaker 1: We're had more sentimental about our bodies than robots. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I guess you could argue that if scientific institutions

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Speaker 1: are getting used from these stolen people's bones, then it's

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Speaker 1: an example of like the pseudoscience of phrenology advancing the

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Speaker 1: real science of anatomy, which is again history is complicated,

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Speaker 1: yeah and weird. Uh so. On Young, the last full

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Speaker 1: blooded man of the Negambrie people of the Limestone Plains

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Speaker 1: in Australia, died at the end of a rival spear

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Speaker 1: in about eighteen fifty. Settlers dug him up and turned

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Speaker 1: his skull into a sugar bowl. On Young's descendants suspect

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Speaker 1: that the sugar bowl is in a private home in Canberra,

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Speaker 1: but the guy who's believed to actually owned this sugar

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Speaker 1: bowl has never returned any phone calls about it. So

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Speaker 1: there are clearly still some collectors who I'm going to

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Speaker 1: guess are pretty racist living in Australia right now, with

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Speaker 1: like furniture and sugar bowls and stuff made out of

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Speaker 1: the bones of Aboriginal people, right, lampshades made of skin,

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Speaker 1: the usual, And the people who are descendants of those

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Speaker 1: folks know it, like we know this guy has my

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Speaker 1: great great great granddad's head and he's using it to

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Speaker 1: put hard candy in and he's clearly blocked our number.

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Speaker 1: He's blocked our number. I shouldn't be like that kind

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Speaker 1: of like horrifying dead laugh that you often get in

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Speaker 1: this particular show. It's well, can you do I mean,

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Speaker 1: good lord, I mean we could, we can all go

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Speaker 1: to that guy's house. He'd probably give up the sugar

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Speaker 1: bowl then. Yeah, I mean, if you know who has

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Speaker 1: on Young's head sugar bowl. This is a situation in

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Speaker 1: which I approve of doxing uh people who owned the

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Speaker 1: remains of uh. Anyway, yeah so uh. Dr William Ramsey Smith,

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Speaker 1: a Scotsman who became state coroner in South Australia in

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, was another prolific school merchant in

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Speaker 1: this skull obsessed era. Since he was corner, he had

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Speaker 1: regular access to the bodies of murdered indigenous victims. He

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Speaker 1: was probably supposed to bury them, but that would have

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Speaker 1: just been throwing money in the ground. One museum file

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Speaker 1: note for a skull that he sold them, and this

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Speaker 1: is a museum file from the University of Edinburgh states quote.

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Speaker 1: The skull is clearly that of a murder victim, with

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Speaker 1: a bullet entry wound in the back of the skull

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Speaker 1: and an exit wound in the front. The path of

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Speaker 1: the bullet suggests deliberate execution rather than defense. It is

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Speaker 1: possible Ramsey Smith obtained the skull through local police. He

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Speaker 1: was a man of suspect ethics who collected remains widely.

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Speaker 1: So what it sounds like is saying here is there's

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Speaker 1: at least one skull that was in Edinburgh University that

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Speaker 1: came from a man who was murdered by the Australian

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Speaker 1: police and then the corner sold his skull to a

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Speaker 1: foreign university. And that sounds about right. Was a hotbed

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Speaker 1: of grave robbing and body part dealing. They love bones

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Speaker 1: in Scotland, big big bone town, big bone town and yeah,

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Speaker 1: bone capital of the British Isles. Uh you heard it here. So,

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Speaker 1: according to The Guardian, Ramsey Smith was quote almost single

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Speaker 1: handedly responsible for Edinburgh University's indigenous Australian bone collection. Smith

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Speaker 1: is believed to have given as many as six hundred

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Speaker 1: people's bodies away to a professor of anatomy at that school.

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Speaker 1: While schools were a popular item, Smith also sent in tongues, skin,

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Speaker 1: male genitals and organs. So that's that's fun um. As

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Speaker 1: Australia became known as the place where you could get

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Speaker 1: your hands on a shipload of dead natives, scientists from

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Speaker 1: around the world, professional and amateur, traveled there and bribed

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Speaker 1: local doctors to provide them with body parts. So we're

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Speaker 1: gonna continue talking about the trade in human corpses because

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Speaker 1: it goes even further and uh again. By the to

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Speaker 1: this episode, we'll be talking about the couple of genocides

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Speaker 1: that were sort of sparked by phrenology. But right now

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Speaker 1: it's time to talk about the wonderful products and or

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Speaker 1: services that support this podcast and or show, So please

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Speaker 1: take a listen, lou get your credit card out, throw

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Speaker 1: some money down and and buy some stuff, and we're back.

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Speaker 1: We are talking about Australia and phrenology. And uh, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna read another quote from a lovely Guardian article about

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Speaker 1: the bone industry that erupted in Australia. So we are

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Speaker 1: still talking about Australia, which in this podcast will forever

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Speaker 1: now be named bone town, although maybe that's Edinburgh. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Given out a lot of nicknames, rapid fire,

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Speaker 1: I can't keep track of them anyway, here's the Guardian quote.

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Speaker 1: Some of the anthropologists attracted to phrenology asked for skulls,

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Speaker 1: while others wanted skin with elaborate tribal markings. Medical schools

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Speaker 1: still under the spell of Darwinism wanted full corpses and

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Speaker 1: skeletons to compare with the Anglo Saxon dead, so they

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Speaker 1: might reinforce the fallacious orthodoxy that each race represented a

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Speaker 1: distinct evolutionary phase. Some Indigenous Australians may have been killed

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Speaker 1: specifically on behalf of visiting Europeans. So as this bone

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Speaker 1: industry goes on, it moves from you know, guys who

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Speaker 1: are out in the middle of nowhere, killing people, sometimes

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Speaker 1: in self defense, sometimes just murder, and then taking their

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Speaker 1: bones to a mortician, essentially taking the skulls have already

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Speaker 1: dead people to scientists coming over to Australian being like

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Speaker 1: I could use the skull of a man of this tribe,

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Speaker 1: and then someone's going out and killing that guy and

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Speaker 1: taking his head. You're directly culpable at that point, for sure.

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Speaker 1: I mean like you were coupable already just buying the

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Speaker 1: bones and knowing what their providence was. But when you

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Speaker 1: travel and select the person from you might as well

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Speaker 1: be pulling the trigger yourself. You're you're a murderer at

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Speaker 1: that point. Uh So, the trade in indigenous corpses in

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Speaker 1: Australia was so brisk and so profitable that soon particularly

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Speaker 1: good specimens were earmarked before they even had a chance

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Speaker 1: to die. One example was a man named Winnama Chu,

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Speaker 1: a Yaruwaka man who was tried in English despite speaking

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Speaker 1: no English, after an alleged tribal murder. He was sent

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Speaker 1: to an asylum in Adelaide and marked for dissection while

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Speaker 1: he was still alive. When he died in nineteen o three,

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Speaker 1: Ramsey Smith de fleshed him. Winnama choose bones remained in

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Speaker 1: Edinburgh until they were repatriated in the nineteen nineties. So

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Speaker 1: again there's people who probably at least one person listening

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Speaker 1: to this podcast who was trained on a corpse that

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Speaker 1: was acquired this way and there. Yeah, I could totally

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Speaker 1: see that next year. And I think I think it's

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Speaker 1: good that that person used the word de fleshed, because

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Speaker 1: I think we cover up a lot of past crimes

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Speaker 1: and unpleasantness by using, um, you know, euphemisms stand ins

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Speaker 1: for things like de fleshing, because when you say something

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Speaker 1: like de fleshing, it gets across what that person was doing.

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Speaker 1: It puts you in the room with them, and it

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Speaker 1: really kind of sinks in what was actually going on

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Speaker 1: if it hadn't already. Yeah, and it is this grim

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about, and a number of the cases

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Speaker 1: that have been uncovered have a seriously dark conspiratorial air

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Speaker 1: to them. You know. We talked about sort of how

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Speaker 1: that that one school in Edinburgh that seems to have

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Speaker 1: been murdered by the police, right where it's possible, although

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Speaker 1: there's no hard evidence, that maybe the police got kickbacks

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Speaker 1: from Ramsey Smith, Like they would murder a guy and

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Speaker 1: give him a body and then he would give them

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Speaker 1: some of the money that he got from the skull.

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Speaker 1: Like that is possible, and if you're trying to do

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Speaker 1: anything about it, you're told forget about it. Jake, it's

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Speaker 1: bone it's bonetown. Yeah, both Edinburgh and Australia both are bonetown.

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Speaker 1: Where there's sister cities, Yeah, sister bones cities. Uh So.

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Speaker 1: Another case is the case of an Aboriginal named ak

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Speaker 1: A Tommy Walker, who was a negar and jerryman who

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Speaker 1: lived on the streets of Adelaide. He was something of

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Speaker 1: a popular local figure, so it wasn't seen as odd

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Speaker 1: that when he died in nineteen o one, the City

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Speaker 1: Stock Exchange paid to give him a decent funeral. That

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Speaker 1: sounds nice, right, Sure, nothing terrible is going to happen.

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Speaker 1: Read the next paragraph. Uh, I should say they gave

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Speaker 1: most of his skin a decent funeral. Ramsey Smith removed

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Speaker 1: his skeleton and sent it to Edinburgh. They buried his skin,

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Speaker 1: and just his skin actually in the city. They de

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Speaker 1: fleshed his ass, and they buried his flesh, and they

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Speaker 1: sent his bones to Edinburgh for cash. Let's not dance

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Speaker 1: around what they did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This bone caper,

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Speaker 1: though almost proved to be Ramsey Smith's undoing. It launched

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Speaker 1: an inquiry into his morgue and local papers filled with

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Speaker 1: articles claiming he'd sold skeletons for ten pounds apiece. One

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Speaker 1: of his former assistants was interviewed and talked about seeing

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Speaker 1: heads stored in kerosene tins to skeletonize them or to

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Speaker 1: flesh them. Other witnesses said Ramsey would regularly shoot corpses

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Speaker 1: with a rifle in order to study their wounds. So

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Speaker 1: this case was a big deal in Adelaide. But because

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Speaker 1: this was nineteen o three, Ramsey Smith was exonerated of

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Speaker 1: any wrongdoing. When he died in nineteen thirty seven, over

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Speaker 1: a hundred human skulls were found in his house. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: Australia was not the only part of the colonial world

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Speaker 1: where organs were bought and sold like funko pop figurines.

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Speaker 1: The Belgian Congo was another popular source for body parts

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Speaker 1: for universities in medical schools. Now, we did a whole

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Speaker 1: two part episode on King Leopold and the rapaciousness of

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Speaker 1: Belgians towards you know, Africans in the Congo. But I

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Speaker 1: think what we didn't get into that time, that I

408
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Speaker 1: really just learned while researching this podcast is that the

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Speaker 1: degree of rapaciousness that Belgian's felt towards African body parts

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Speaker 1: and sort of this desire to come modify them and

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Speaker 1: sell their skulls and their bones led to a myth

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Speaker 1: in the Congo that all white people were cannibals. Now

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Speaker 1: I found yeah, I found all this out in a

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Speaker 1: fascinating study by the National Institute for Health called Cutting

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Speaker 1: the Flesh, Surgery, Autopsy and Cannibalism in the Belgian Congo.

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Speaker 1: The article discusses a man named Levmo who was sent

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Speaker 1: to work with a Christian missionary while he was still

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Speaker 1: very young. Quote when his father told him as a

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Speaker 1: young boy that he would be going to live with Bentley,

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Speaker 1: who was the Belgian missionary and the Levmo was terrified

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Speaker 1: and it was thought as it was thought that quote

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Speaker 1: the white man sometimes eight Congo people in Central Africa.

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Speaker 1: It is common knowledge that a which from a distance

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Speaker 1: eats the soul of the various organs of his or

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Speaker 1: her victim's body. These organs die and eventually the bodies die.

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Speaker 1: It is not metaphorical. Even though it is not tangible,

427
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,639
Speaker 1: this act cannot be seen. Only its secondary effects can

428
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 1: be viewed in the illness of the individual being consumed

429
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 1: from the inside. Again, it is literally cannibalism, but not

430
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 1: a physical cannibalism. But to understand it as such as

431
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 1: to understand that the body is something more than the material.

432
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,199
Speaker 1: European stories of indigenous stories of cannibalism fail to realize this.

433
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: Did the eating of the physical body exist most certainly

434
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 1: to some extent. But I suspect many of the stories

435
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 1: of cannibalism circulating and colonial circles in the early twentieth

436
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:46,439
Speaker 1: century where of the non physical variety misinterpreted by colonial observers.

437
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 1: So what he's saying is that I'm sure people have people.

438
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 1: Everyone listening has heard some myths about cannibals in Africa.

439
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 1: You know, in this period of time, there were constant

440
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 1: stories about them, constant tales of cannibals in the Congo,

441
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: and whatnot with this Hiss is essentially suggesting is that

442
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 1: most of those stories were not actual cannibalism. They were

443
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: tribes talking about cannibalism because they believed that like if

444
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,959
Speaker 1: you kill an enemy, you eat some aspect of his essence,

445
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 1: and so the tribes consider that cannibalism even though no

446
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: actual flesh was being consumed. So both Europeans believed that

447
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 1: the Congolese people were cannibals even though they weren't actually

448
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 1: eating people, because they misunderstood sort of what they were

449
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,719
Speaker 1: talking about when they said cannibalism. But also the Congolese

450
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: people began to think that the Europeans were cannibals because

451
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 1: the Europeans, even though they weren't consuming African flesh, were

452
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 1: in a way consuming African flesh far more than than

453
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 1: the Congolese people were. Yeah, yeah, it's I think that's fascinating.

454
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 1: I had no idea. I'd never read about this until

455
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 1: just now. This guy there was a guy named I

456
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 1: can't remember his airs, someone Airs, and he wrote a

457
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: paper in the seventies or eighties, where he's basically saying like,

458
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 1: I don't think cannibalism actually ever really happened. I think

459
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: we may have really misinterpreted some things. And he of

460
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 1: course was shouted down in the academy, but his whole

461
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 1: comeback was like, showed me, showed me the evidence there is, like,

462
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: how show me that, like genuine physical evidence of cannibalism,

463
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: And there is some, but it's typically linked to climate

464
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: change from what I've seen. Apparently it has been documented

465
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: in real life. But the idea, that's just the general

466
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: widespread idea that Africa was overrun with cannibals, or or

467
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: p Papua New Guineas, or Australia's or wherever, some dark

468
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: continent filled with shadows and mystery because we've never really

469
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 1: been there before, it is full of cannibals. That's just

470
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: a Western concept from misunderstanding. Was this guy's position. Yeah,

471
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: and I think that's that's very true. And in fact,

472
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: the only place on the globe right now that I

473
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: would be willing to say is filled with cannibalism is

474
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: main YEP cannibals and main main listeners. I'm not gonna

475
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: take it back, so stop eating people manners. Anyway, let's

476
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: get back to the Congo. The Congolese people start to

477
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 1: view the white people who are coming into their country

478
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 1: as cannibals because they're literally devouring the Congolese people. But

479
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: at the same time, in a I don't know, irony

480
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: might be the right term to use for this. The

481
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 1: colonial authorities in Belgium start to become convinced that cannibalism

482
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: is rife in Central Africa just because of how easy

483
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: it is to find the bones of dead Africans. Quote.

484
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: In the late nineteenth century, Avid skull collector and Congo

485
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: explorer George Schweinfurth found skull so easily attainable in the

486
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: Congo that for him this was ample proof of African cannibalism.

487
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: At the same time, he spent considerable effort attempting to

488
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: explain phrenology to the very populations he collected from to

489
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: allay the growing fears that he himself was at cannibal

490
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 1: The example of scientists creating their truth could be seen

491
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: even more clearly in the case of Scottish naturalist James S. Jamison.

492
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,959
Speaker 1: James S. Jamison was the heir to the Jamison Whiskey

493
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: fortune So this is the son of the guy who

494
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 1: invented jamison whiskey, and he paid a local tribal leader

495
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: in Central Africa ten handkerchiefs for his men to eat

496
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: a ten year old girl. Possibly apocryphal. There's some debate

497
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: as to whether or not this happened, but there's writings

498
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: about it, and it was certainly used as evidence that

499
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 1: cannibalism was happening. Well, we were able to pay these

500
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: people to eat someone, so clearly cannibalisms rampant. You know,

501
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: we paid handkerchiefs, they wanted to do it, basically. Well,

502
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: and I love the idea of this Belgian explorer schwein

503
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 1: Ferth becoming convinced that the sheer ease with which you know,

504
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: he can find bones is proof that there's cannibalism in Africa.

505
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: At the same time as he's trying to explain phrenology

506
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: to these people, so they don't think that he's a cannibal.

507
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 1: It's pretty wild. And of course there were so many

508
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: bones in the Congo because during the twenty years that

509
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: King Leopold ruled the Congo, half of the people there died,

510
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 1: you know, about ten to thirteen million. Good lord, yeah, again,

511
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot of bones. When you kill

512
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: thirteen million people, you know there's you might as well

513
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: sell them. I guess yeah, you're just leaving money and ground,

514
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 1: which is where you should leave it if it's bones.

515
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: But anyway, uh So. Belgium first started occupying land in

516
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: what is now Rwanda in nineteen twelve, and their holdings

517
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: grew at the end of World War One when they

518
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: were given Germany's land in Africa as retaliation for the

519
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: German occupation. I'd like to quote now from a fascinating

520
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 1: study titled Phrenology and the Rwandan Genocide by Charles Andre Quote.

521
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: At the time of European colonization, a myth of ancient

522
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: Ethiopian ancestry and racial superiority of the Tutsis was introduced

523
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty four. The British explorer John H. Speck

524
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 1: wrote that the Hutus were a primitive race, the true

525
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: curly headed, flab nosed, pouch mouthed Negro, while the Tutsis

526
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: descended from the best blood of Abyssinia and were therefore

527
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: far superior. Belgian settlers disseminated this myth an influential nineteen

528
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: thirty one documentary The Congo I Knew made by armand

529
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: Dennis probably contributed all this led to increasing tension and

530
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: discrimination against the Hutu and Tuah populations. I think you

531
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: can probably see where we're we're ramping up to get

532
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: to here. So it was extremely common for colonial occupiers

533
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 1: who have favored tribes within their domain. If you remember

534
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: from our episode on ed Amine and his tribe at

535
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: the Kaqua, they were used as elite colonial super soldiers

536
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: in the British Empire. The Belgians in Rwanda preferred the Tutsis,

537
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: thus launching a Rachel dichotomy that would end in tremendous bloodshed.

538
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: And we will talk about that tremendous bloodshed after this

539
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: ad pivot and we're back. We're back and we finally

540
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: got into Rwanda, and we're talking about how the Belgians

541
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: were the first ones to really set up the racial

542
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: economy between the Tutsi and the Utu people. So the

543
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: Tutsi had first settled in Rwanda around the fourteenth century

544
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: from their original homelands in the Congo. They'd grown to

545
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: become something of the dominant feudal elite in the region

546
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: prior to colonialism. Uh and in this era. You know,

547
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: before the Europeans arrived, most of the rulers in Rwanda

548
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: had been Tutsi, but there had been inner marriage between

549
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: the do In the Tutsi, and the vast majority of

550
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: both groups were super poor peasants. There was no history

551
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: of mass race based violence between the two groups and

552
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: no enforced racial laws. It was fine and fairly normal

553
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: for Hutu and Tutsi people to intermarry and have children.

554
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: All this changed for the worse when Belgium took over

555
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty three. Their avowed preference for the Tutsi

556
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: was caughtified and colonial law. Every person in Rwanda was

557
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: issued a racial identity card that noted their ethnic origins.

558
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: These origins were verified using the best phrenologic science of

559
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: the era quote, cranioficial and body measurements were taken and

560
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: a number of distinguishing features were considered for ethnic classification

561
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: of the population. Tutsi's had a taller stature, probably related

562
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: to better nutrition. The head format, color of the eyes

563
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: and skin lighter, and the size of the noses longer

564
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: and narrower were important features which as a group was

565
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: considered to resemble white Europeans. So again you've got that

566
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: scientist hundreds something years before this point who's saying that, like,

567
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: you can rank the races by how similar they are

568
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: to Greeks, and that's a descendant of what the Belgians

569
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: are doing here. The Tutsis look closer to us than

570
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: the Hoodoos do. So they're the dominant. They're they're okay,

571
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: they're okay in our book, we're going to support them

572
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 1: ruling this area. So since the Rwandan colony was a

573
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: for profit endeavor for Belgium, the Belgian authorities avoided exercising

574
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: much direct control over the government because you know that

575
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: costs money. Instead, they handed power to the Tutsi and

576
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: backed that power up with European guns. Under Tutsi in

577
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: Belgian dominance, Hutus were restricted from higher education, from owning land,

578
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: and from working in the government. They were conscripted to

579
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: provide forced labor under Tutsi masters and for Belgian profit.

580
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: Since the jutu Is made up the majority of the

581
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: Rwandan population, it's not surprising that this whole situation turned

582
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: into a powder keg In nineteen fifty seven, nineteen fifty

583
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: nine through sixty one, and nineteen sixty two. This anger

584
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: manifested itself in violent programs by Hutus against the Tutsi minority.

585
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: When Belgium abandoned the colony in nineteen sixty two, it

586
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: was split into two nations, but Ndi and Rwanda. In

587
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, Tutsi dominated Burundi, flushed with Belgian guns,

588
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: invaded Rwanda and held the country until nineteen seventy four,

589
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: when a coup reestablished Hutu dominance in the government. The

590
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: fighting and blood letting between Hutus and Tutsis continued in

591
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: the former colony until in a one hundred day period

592
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety four, between eight hundred and thousand and

593
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: two million, mostly Tutsi victims were massacred in the orgy

594
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: of violence. Seventy percent of the Tutsi population was wiped

595
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: out in the space of a summer. The efficiency with

596
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: which this murdering occurred was only possible due to the

597
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: lingering influence of phrenology see The racial i d system

598
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: the Belgians had set up in the thirties was still

599
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: active in the nineteen nineties. Quote despite renewed discussion and

600
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: an apparent willingness to discuss its termination. From nineteen ninety on,

601
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: the classification system was still in use and became a

602
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: central instrument to rapidly identify and killed Tutsis during the

603
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four genocide. Ethnic classification and identity cards was

604
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: only abolished in nineteen ninety seven. Wow, so three years

605
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: after the Rwandan genocide. Phrenology is still a central part

606
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: of the government of Rwanda, enforcing a racial dichotomy and

607
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: violence between two races that again, prior to Belgian dominance,

608
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: there was no evidence that Tutsi and Whotu people saw

609
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: each other as different races. There was no evidence that

610
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: there was this sort of when you go in and

611
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,719
Speaker 1: prop up one group over another, it's definitely going to

612
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,239
Speaker 1: create some hard feelings, pretty understandable, exactly, and when you

613
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: believe that, like, for example, because different people with different

614
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: skull types and whatnot are effectively different species, and you

615
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: have to keep them apart in order to stop one

616
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: species from intermarrying with the other. And you develop a

617
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: racial card system and you're measuring people's skulls determine what

618
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,959
Speaker 1: their cards says like, Yeah, it's not surprising that what

619
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: happened happened. It's kind of the logical conclusion of this

620
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: This type of bigotry um so as ridiculous as most

621
00:32:58,120 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: of its tenants sound. Today, with our much greater under

622
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: standing of human biology and heredity, phrenology still exerts a

623
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: massive influence on the world. The British Phrenological Association was

624
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: active until nineteen sixty seven. Yeah, it's still nineteen sixty seven. Yeah, Yeah,

625
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: there's a sorry interjecting, I literally could not hold that one. No,

626
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: it's it's crazy, right, Like, there's the civil rights movement

627
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: is going off in the United States and there's people

628
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: in Britain being like, yeah, we should measure their schools.

629
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: He is still an irishman. There were just two of

630
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: them left, but still and then they were they were

631
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: holding out, the holding out the ghost. Yeah. And again

632
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: this racial I D system that's based in phrenology was

633
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: active in Romanda until ninety seven. So it is a

634
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: it's a bit difficult to comprehensively uncoil the full impact

635
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: of phrenology on twentieth century racist of violence. There were

636
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: numerous other strains of racist scientific thought, uh and even

637
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: perfectly valid theories like Darwin's theory of evolution were missed

638
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: used in the twentieth century to justify racial policy, but

639
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: phrenology was the first or an ize scientific attempt to

640
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: categorize human races in an official capacity. As such, its

641
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: impacts extended to the racial policies of histories most racist

642
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: regime the Nazis quote early works focused on misaggenation, and

643
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: studies by Eugene Fisher in German Southwest Africa today's Namibia

644
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: involved physical measurements and led to prohibition of mixed race

645
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: marriages and all German colonies in nineteen twelve after losing

646
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: its African colonies at the start of World War One.

647
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: Similar studies on mixed populations were held in Germany and

648
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: led to the sterilization of German blacks also called the

649
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,720
Speaker 1: Rhineland Bastards. Similar methods were later used for physical anthropological

650
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: characterization of Jews and the justification and racial purification and

651
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 1: the Holocaust. So the Nazis were measuring skulls. They believed

652
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: in all this, and you can find Nazi drawings and

653
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: stuff of like the skulls of shapes of heads of

654
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: Jewish people as a way to recognize them and try

655
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: to ferret out people with Jewish blood in them, and

656
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: such like this was again you. It's not talked about

657
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: much today, but phrenology was very much part of the

658
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: intellectual development of the of Nazi racial policy. Yeah, I'm

659
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: from what I understand, the Nazis got a lot of

660
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: their ideas from America in the earlier the beginning of

661
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: the twentieth century. A lot of American scientists inspired a

662
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: lot of Nazi thought from what I understand, Yeah, American

663
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: and British scientists. Uh So. Phrenology unfortunately, still has some

664
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: adherents today. You can find people in weird little corners

665
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: of the Internet talking about it, especially if you spend

666
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: as much time reading stuff racist right on the Internet

667
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: as I do. But it has been thoroughly discredited as

668
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: a pseudoscience and no longer has much or any poll

669
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 1: in mainstream academic circles. Today, it's best known as an

670
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: example of scientific racism. But the collapse of phrenology hasn't

671
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: meant the end of scientific racism. There are still prominent

672
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: racist scientists using bad logic and worst deductions to justify

673
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: their racism today. In nineteen four, psychologist Richard Hernstein and

674
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: political scientists Charles Murray published The Bell Curve, a book

675
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: about i Q that was a centily the scientific underpinning

676
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: of the movie Idiocracy. The Bell Curve argued that intelligent

677
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: people were risk of being outbred by stupid people. Intelligence,

678
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: of course, was based on i Q tests, highly problematic

679
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: metric that Murray and Hernstein basically embraced as infalliable evidence

680
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: of mental potential. The Bell Curve argues that welfare and

681
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: all forms of social support for poor mothers should be

682
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: ended because they encourage dumb people to breed. It states, quote,

683
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: the most efficient way to raise the i Q of

684
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 1: a society is for smarter women to have higher birth

685
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: rates than duller women. The Bell curve does not argue

686
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: in favor of genocide, and instead suggests that there ought

687
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: to be quote a place for everyone, even low i

688
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: Q individuals. These people could handle perhaps menial work, while

689
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: high i Q individuals and I'm gonna let you guess

690
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 1: which color of people Murray thinks high i Q individuals

691
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: tend to be. These people should manage society, which is,

692
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: you'll notice, basically the same thing Aristotle proposed two and

693
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: a half thousand years ago. Yeah uh, And in fact,

694
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: Murray has identified Aristotle as a major influence on his

695
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: work and his thinking, because hey, we we really peaked

696
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: in mental thought years ago. Everything else is just redoing

697
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: the original, right all cover. Yeah, those guys who died

698
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: when they scraped their knees on a rock really had

699
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: some shipped down and it all figured out now. Last year,

700
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 1: Murray was a guest on an atheist pundits podcast Sam Harris.

701
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 1: The episode was titled Forbidden Knowledge. Last March, after anti

702
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 1: racist protesters shut down a speech Murray was scheduled to

703
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: give it Middlebury College, The Daily Wire, founded by Ben Shapiro,

704
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: covered the protests by posting a lengthy, multi paragraph excerpt

705
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: where Charles Murray defended his science, which again argues that

706
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: there are inherent intelligence differences between the races, and again

707
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: when he's really pointing out that one race is not

708
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: as smart as others. On March eighteen, The New York

709
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: Times published an article by David Reich where he stated, quote,

710
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: it is simply no longer possible to ignore or the

711
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,760
Speaker 1: average genetic differences in races. Now, I want to stop

712
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: here for a second just to point out that there's

713
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 1: been quite a lot of study on why there are

714
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: differences in i Q tests and has to do with

715
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: a number of things. One of the factors is that

716
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: people of different races and different economic classes use the

717
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: same words to mean different things, because you know, it's

718
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: the same thing with like how people speak differently in

719
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: Louisiana or in Texas where I come than they do

720
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: in the East Coast. But the people who write the

721
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 1: i Q tests come from one very specific area and

722
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: use words in a specific way, and they base it

723
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: off of essentially their experience. So you've got people who

724
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: grew up in a very different sort of situation who

725
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: are going to score differently even though they're not any

726
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 1: less intelligent. And they've shown that for one thing, if

727
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: the if the i Q test was an immutable representation

728
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: of your intelligence, you wouldn't be able to change your

729
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: i Q score by like twenty points by studying. You

730
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: can impact your i Q test massively by studying for

731
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 1: the i Q test. There are a lot of problems

732
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 1: with i Q and it is the height of I'm

733
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: gonna call it idiocy to presume that this test is

734
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: like the objective measure of intelligence. And I will point

735
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: out that like guys like Albert Einstein didn't brag about

736
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: their i Q s other people talk a lot more

737
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: about Einstein's IQ than he ever did. Real smart people

738
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 1: don't need to brag about their i Q. But anyway,

739
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: that's a little bit of a rant here. It's also

740
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: worth noting that, you know, these people like Murray, one

741
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: of the authors of The Bell Curve. The argument that

742
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: guys like him will make is that you know, we're

743
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 1: trying to do real science. We're trying to ask questions,

744
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: and science doesn't have to be polite, and you know,

745
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: if you're offended, well, I'm sorry that these facts offend you.

746
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: But again, Murray is a political scientist. He's not a

747
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: genetic scientist. He's not an expert on the human brain.

748
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,479
Speaker 1: He's not a neurologist. And actual neurologist and actual people

749
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: who know what they're they're talking about and study this

750
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: thing for a living have pretty openly condemned all of

751
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 1: this thought and pointed out repeatedly why it is, why

752
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: it's dumb. Murray, You're dumb if you listen to this podcast. Somehow,

753
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, The Bell Curve was a bad book, and

754
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 1: you're a bad scientist. So, in other words, scientific racism

755
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: continues to this day into the twenty teens now is

756
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: in the eighteen thirties. It is dressed up with the

757
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: latest and most scientific sounding phrasing possible, but with a

758
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 1: proper historical look at the subject, we can see that

759
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 1: very little has changed since the days of the eighteen hundreds.

760
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 1: Back then, doctor called Well studied the heads of enslaved

761
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: black people and deduced that, surprise, surprise, the shape of

762
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 1: their skulls had destined them to be owned by him. Today,

763
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 1: menlike Murray and David Reich look at our very incomplete

764
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: data on human intelligence, declare i Q and formal education

765
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 1: to be the objective measures of intelligence, and that ignore

766
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: the fact that both of those measures are heavily impacted

767
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 1: by income level and of course, centuries of brutal oppression

768
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 1: and subjection. They claim that we're just looking at facts

769
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 1: will ignoring historical facts that revealed them to be nothing

770
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 1: but yet another generation of scientific racists. That's the NIMI spiel.

771
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: I loved your spiel, Robbert. I Um, I've been sitting

772
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: here absorbing everything that you've been saying, half the gross

773
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: but also half in awe because you've got some research

774
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: skills that are something special. Well, I I have to

775
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:08,720
Speaker 1: thank all of the and again all of the sources

776
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 1: will be on our website. Behind the Bastards, I read

777
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: a lot of smart PhD people's papers and stuff for this.

778
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: You know, I didn't do any original research. This is

779
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: a lot of very smart people whose names I have forgotten,

780
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 1: but you can check out on our bibliography. Well, I mean, yes,

781
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 1: of course you didn't do the primary research. You wouldn't

782
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 1: have time to do this show if you had. But

783
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 1: I think you put a put put all this disparate

784
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: research together in a remarkable way. Sorry, I feel like

785
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: I'm talking to my teenage SI or something like that.

786
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: You've got a ribbon or something. I really am in

787
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: awe and I love what you're doing and thanks what

788
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: you're doing. Well. I appreciate that a lot. I think

789
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: this is an important story because I think I think

790
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: one of them that's really important to understand about racism

791
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: is that it's not a human inevitability. It's not something

792
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: that has always been present. People have always been distrustful

793
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 1: of people who come from far away, like you know,

794
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: during the Roman Empire, you know, when the Romans made

795
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: contact with like a traitor from han China, they were

796
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: probably a little bit weirded out. They're like, oh, this

797
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 1: guy looks really different, what's going on with this? But

798
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: there was no like racism the way we have it

799
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: didn't exist in the Roman Empire. They had slaves, but

800
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: it didn't matter what color those slaves were, and there

801
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: were black people who were emperors of their Roman Empire,

802
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: Like there was no attempt to categorize people based on

803
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: what the color of their skin was. That ship is recent.

804
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 1: It started with We're gonna do a whole episode at

805
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: some point on the invention of whiteness, but like there's

806
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: some evidence that the idea of white people started as

807
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: a way to essentially prove that the Irish were not

808
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: human um and then gradually, like the the Irish was

809
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: sort of the prototype, and the tactics that were used

810
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,240
Speaker 1: to subjugate the Irish evolved, and we're used to subjugate

811
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: the Native Americans, and then we're used to subjugate the

812
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: Africans on the continent of Africa, and so it's like

813
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: this whole very long, dark intellectual tradition, but it really

814
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: doesn't kick off until five years ago, you know, And

815
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: before then, we didn't have racism the way that we

816
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 1: have it now. Which isn't to say people weren't shitty

817
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: or didn't enslave each other, but it was not what

818
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: we all live with right now. Um. I think it's

819
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: important to know that that's new and that it's the

820
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: result of people who wanted to feel smart and also

821
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 1: have a way to justify treating other people like ship like,

822
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: that's the that's the that's the basis of phrenology, right

823
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: like yeah, so, And I wonder also, I mean, like

824
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: it was I can't tell if the scientists were out

825
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: there doing this work like for the benefit of the

826
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: governments or the corporations who were using the work to

827
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: justify the colonization subjugation that they were using it for,

828
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: or if it was just handy and the governments that

829
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: was it in conjunction, or or was it kind of

830
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: one one like the horse the horse went before the cart.

831
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 1: I think it's a mix of both. I think it's

832
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: like Gall, the founder phrenology. I don't think it started

833
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,320
Speaker 1: out of desire for racism or desire to justify slavery.

834
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 1: I think Gall realize that the brain was more important

835
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: than people have been giving it credit for, and he

836
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 1: just made some understandable mistakes you know, for that era

837
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 1: in science. But I think that the mistakes he made

838
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: provided an opportunity for other people to make use of

839
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: this science and also sort of people that called well

840
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: who didn't do any of the original research, but when

841
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 1: they read about it, found a way to use it

842
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: to justify the things they already believed. Like, I think

843
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: you've got that first generation of people who are like

844
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: trying to do science, coming at this not out of

845
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: a desire for bigotry, but what really helps it spread?

846
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: Or the second and third generations who just see it

847
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: as a way to justify being shitty like that, I

848
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: think that is how it goes. Yeah, racism we Josh,

849
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: you want to plug your plug doubles. Oh, I'd love to.

850
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 1: Thanks for the opportunity. I have a podcast of my own,

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00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 1: or I do the talking. It's called The End of

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00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: the World with Josh Clark. It's about how we will

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00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: probably not be around two hundred years ago, and by

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00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: we I mean the human race or two years from now.

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00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: And it's pretty interesting. It's ten part heavy on the

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00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: sound design, heavy on the original score by a guy

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00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,479
Speaker 1: named point Lobo who's amazing um and you can find

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00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,399
Speaker 1: it everywhere Apple Podcasts, I Heart Radio, the Whole Bank

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00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,280
Speaker 1: and check out hashtag E O T W Josh Clark

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00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: everywhere on social Did you know you can just make

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00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: up your own hashtag? Yeah, yeah, I've I've tried with

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00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 1: with with hashtag. Charles Murray is not as smart as

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00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 1: he thinks he is. But I think it's a little

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00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: bit too long. I don't know. Maybe after this episode

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Speaker 1: it will really take off. Here we go. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: once you've listened to my podcast and you are ready

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Speaker 1: for the end of humanity, listen to Josh's podcast Into

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00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: the World and it will be uplifting. Uh. You can

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Speaker 1: find us on the internet at Behind the Bastards dot com.

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Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Bastards odd.

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00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at I right. Okay,

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00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: Uh so yeah, this has been Behind the Bastards. I've

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00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: been Robert Evans, You've been Josh Clark. Thank you so much, Josh,

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00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 1: thank you, Robert, thanks for having me, and thank you

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00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 1: all for listening. We will be back next week with

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00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: another story about someone or someone's terrible. Until then, buy

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00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: a T shirt from us at T Public. I was

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00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 1: gonna close it out, but then Sophia re minded me

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00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: to plug the T shirt, So yeah, behind the Bastards

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00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: t public by a shirt, by a phone case, by

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00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: a sticker. They sell branded sandwiches, they don't. They don't

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00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: sell branded sandwiches, but you can put a sticker on

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00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 1: the sandwich and eat it. So we'll be back next week.

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Speaker 1: I love about you.