WEBVTT - Listener Questions #32 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:12.360 Is the universe's expansion just entropiece show. No, it's the 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.280 cosmic stretch that lets disorder grow. 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:18.720 I live an envy of rip Van Winkle. I just 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:21.840 can't stay asleep. But if I take a sleep aid, 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:24.599 will I rest longer but less deep? 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:29.960 Could aliens evolve epic nap skills for the long cosmic ride? 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:34.559 Or yeat themselves across space? On pure physics pride. 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:38.800 Whatever questions keep you up at night, Daniel and Kelly's 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:39.880 answers will make it right. 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:45.879 Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe. Listener Questions number 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:46.960 thirty two. 0:00:47.400 --> 0:01:01.920 Woo Hello. 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:04.840 I'm Kelly Waider Smith and it currently hurts to laugh. 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:06.640 So this is one of the few instances in my 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:09.240 life where I wish my friend and co host Daniel 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:10.040 was less funny. 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:15.040 Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and I never 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.080 thought being funny was dangerous. 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:21.720 Oh it's not usually, It really really isn't usually. 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.520 But it is fun to consider yourself dangerously funny. 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:29.080 Oh yes, yes, we all enjoy fiction from diamonds. 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:34.720 Ooh, I love the instant karma. Every time you throw 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:36.000 a jab you feel it. 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:38.720 Yeah, you know, I think what I'm what I'm learning 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:43.000 about myself is that I laugh at myself a lot, 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:47.600 and I think I'm very funny, which is maybe not 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:48.760 a great personal trait. 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:50.080 It's a little dangerous. 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:54.840 It turns out, Yeah, I guess so ooh okay. So 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:58.559 here's my question for you. So you used the word 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:01.640 yeat and one of in the poem in the intro, 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:06.600 and yeat is a word that specifically reminds me that 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:08.560 I am old, because it was one of the first 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:12.120 words that I remember hearing where I was like, oh, 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:14.120 I don't know what that means, but I don't want 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:16.000 to tell someone I don't know what it means, because 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:18.240 it's clearly one of the cool words that people are 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:19.800 using now and I just have to figure it out 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:24.960 through context. And so yeat was like my initiation into 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:28.560 being one of the not cool older people. Do you 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:32.040 have a moment where you were like, oh, I have 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:34.480 reached the age where I don't get the things. 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:37.760 Well, I have a teenage daughter, so I hear a 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.959 lot of words I have to interpret in context. For example, 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:45.200 it took me a while to understand what sleigh really meant, 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:47.840 like what exactly is a good sleigh and how do 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:50.880 you start every day with the sleigh? And now, of 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.880 course that I've mastered it, it's like so embarrassing to 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:57.840 use that word, because nobody uses that word. So I 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.080 love how language is flexible and how it evolves, and 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.919 how my teenager lets me put my thumb on the 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:05.480 linguistic pulse of America. 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:10.480 How your teenager lets you sort of strangle America by 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.440 like making it not fun anymore as soon as you 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:14.120 understand it. 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:17.760 Yeah, exactly, spoiling fun as parents do. 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:19.600 Yeah, yeah, it's certainly what I do. 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:21.960 And on this episode, we're hoping did not spoil your fun, 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:24.839 but answer your questions, which we hope is a fun 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:28.800 resolution to those mysteries we are scratching your curiosity. 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:30.880 Yeah, well, the good news is our listeners are a 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:32.880 lot more fun than we are, and that kind of 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:37.200 makes us fun by associations. So let's start with Sonia's question, 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:39.440 and let's go ahead and listen to it. 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.400 I have a question about time. So years ago I 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.240 read a book called flat Land, and I think it 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:47.800 had a sequel called sphere Land, which I read as well, 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:53.800 and it was an incredible explanation of dimensions, including time 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.480 as a dimension. It did also have some hilarious sexism 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.400 in it that I think men in nice logical shapes 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.880 and women are small pointy lines and if they bump 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.520 into the men, the men explode and die I mean 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:10.000 Freudian or what. But aside from that, it made it 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.200 possible to understand how time could be a dimension. But 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:15.440 then I was thinking that time is the only dimension 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:17.760 that you can only move in one direction, that you 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:22.320 experience it only going forwards, And I often wondered is 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:25.520 that related to the fact that the universe is expanding? 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:29.160 Is it like space, time is growing and our consciousness 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.039 sits on the growing edge of it, and as it 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:37.440 grows we experience it going forward. Or is it something 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:43.039 to do with maybe just falling like gravity and time 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:47.320 pulling us forward, like you know, what is pulling us 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:52.000 in this direction? Why can we not slide backwards and 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.360 forwards in time in the way that we could in space. 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.880 That's it really okay? So I am definitely interested in 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.760 hilarious sexism. Or are we talking about like, you know, 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.280 watching a movie from the eighties where you know, the 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.000 women are like just blonde and need to be saved, 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.720 or like, what are we talking about. 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.680 Here, no flatline goes even further back, and it's sort 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:20.080 of like a time capsule of casual sexism from the 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.800 middle of last century. Oh yeah, exactly. 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:23.400 Oh. 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:27.800 I mean sometimes I can be hilarious but also really frustrated. 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:30.160 I wonder if he was even commented on at the time, 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:32.120 or if it's just like, hey, this is just how 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:34.880 we talk about women. Anyway, it's fascinating. 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:38.600 You know. The other day I got my gallbladder removed, 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.600 which wasn't a ton of fun. But right as they 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:43.960 were rolling me into the operating theater, I looked around 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:48.279 and I said, wait a minute, you're all women. This 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:53.279 is awesome. And they were like, yeah, that is pretty awesome. 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:55.600 I guess they were kind of used to it, but anyway, 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.040 I thought it was pretty great that everybody rolling me 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.239 into that room was a woman. Anyway, we've made some progress, 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:05.440 still some room for improvement. Let's talk about time as 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:06.040 a dimension. 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.600 Yeah, so, Sonya's question essentially is why does time go forward? 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:12.880 If time is a dimension, why can't we slide backwards 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.080 and forwards? And how does it related to the expansion 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.280 of the universe and all this kind of stuff. So 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:19.600 let's start at the beginning, and remember what we know 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:23.520 about time and space. Space is three dimensional. You can 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:27.360 go backwards and forwards. If you define an arbitrary reference frame, 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:29.640 you put yourself at zero, then you're always at the 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:31.919 same place. If you define the center of the Earth 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:34.800 to be zero, then you can move all around. You 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.600 can come back and revisit where you were born. There 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.440 is no arbitrary reference frame, but if you pick one, 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.839 you can go backwards and forwards. In space, time we 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.479 think of a little bit differently, but Albert Einstein showed 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.279 us that time and space are deeply connected. In fact, 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.720 he wraps them together into a four dimensional object called 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:53.679 space time. 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.800 And one of the first episodes you and I recorded 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:01.279 together was what is time and what is space? And 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:05.239 those are some really fun philosophical topics to think about 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.479 deeply while looking at the stars, I think, and this. 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.000 Is a really important and subtle point here, which is like, 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.840 why do you put things together? Is it more than 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.240 just I'm tacking on another dimension? Is it meaningful in 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:20.840 some way? And it really is. We only do this 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.720 when it makes more sense to group things than it 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.520 does to divide things, like with electricity and magnetism. We 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:30.920 notice that these two things are really two parts of 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.040 the same larger object, and we had drawn an artificial 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.480 dotted line between them, and now we see that it 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:38.560 makes much more sense to connect them and to think 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:41.120 of them as one larger hole, because, for example, in 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.480 special relativity, we know that what somebody sees as an 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.600 electric fields, somebody else can see is electric and magnetic. 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:50.360 It's observer dependent, so it really is one larger hole. 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.200 And it's the same story with space and time. Things 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.800 get simpler, they get more beautiful, more elegant when you 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.280 treat it as one larger hole rather than two separate things. 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:04.800 Specifically in special relativity, when you think about what's happening 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:07.400 in the universe and you want to translate from what 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.920 one observer sees to what another observer sees, who's like 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.720 somewhere else and maybe moving fast, it's just rotating a 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:18.400 four dimensional vector. Because space and time is one four 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.160 D object and a frame is like a four D vector. 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:23.920 You just rotate that four D vector and all the 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.080 components mix just the same way, like in linear algebra. 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:29.200 If you have a three D vector in space and 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:32.240 you rotate it, all the components get mixed together, and 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:35.960 that's just because time impacts where things happen, and space 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:39.520 impacts when you see them happen. They really are parts 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.120 of a larger hole, and so it makes perfect sense 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:44.480 to stick them together. In fact, the math becomes much 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.440 simpler if you do. So that's why we stick things together. 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:48.199 It's not just. 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:54.800 Arbitrary, okay, but where and when are still different. So 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:56.680 do you lose anything by lumping them? 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:59.520 Yeah? I love that question. Now you don't lose anything. 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:02.800 In fact, you gain because all of your intuition for 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.640 how space works and vectors rotate in space, you can 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.840 now generalize that to four dimensions and operate on space 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:12.000 time in the same way. So it's like you get 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.240 to bring a whole set of tools along with you. You 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:16.200 have to adapt them a little bit, but now you 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.480 have like a more powerful toolkit to deal with these questions. 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.520 But you're right that space and time are still different. 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.920 Like special relativity sees them as very very similar, right, 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:28.240 and brings them closer together. But we know they are 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:32.280 still different, and the theories of physics that we have 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.520 actually all trees time differently. So we've been talking about relativity, 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.200 which combines space and time, but in general relativity it 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.480 gets even weirder, and you have these more generalized coordinates 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:45.560 which you can say are like kind of spacey, and 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.280 some of them are kind of timy. And in general 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:50.680 relativity you can even have theories of the universe where 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.160 time has a beginning it's like a singularity right before 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.520 which there is no time. So time is very weird 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:01.760 in general relativity, and then in quantum mechanics it's completely different. 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.439 Quantum mechanics treats time just as a parameter. It separates 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:07.720 space and time. It says you have all these fields 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:12.320 through space and they evolve over time. And actually quantum mechanics, 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:16.360 which insists that no information is lost, requires that time 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.360 is infinite into the past and into the future, and 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.760 quantum mechanics is almost symmetric in time. So we have 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.400 very similar concepts and we use the same word, but 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.880 time in quantum mechanics and time and relativity really are 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.120 different concepts, and it's actually one of the obstacles to 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:36.360 merging them together into a theory of quantum gravity. And 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.800 we have even a third concept of time, which of 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.360 course we just use the same name for, which is 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:46.520 thermodynamic time. Right in thermodynamics there actually is an arrow. 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.400 The universe evolves differently forwards in time and backwards in 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.760 time because of entropy. The second law thermodynamics says that 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:58.599 entropy increases with time, it goes up. So this is asymmetric, 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.680 and this is what we call thermodynamic arrow of time. 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:05.160 The universe goes from lower entropy to higher entropy. And 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.680 check out our episode a deep dive into entropy, which 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:12.040 shows you that's not just like disorder. It's an evolution 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:16.480 from improbable states to more probable states. So that's another 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:20.079 concept of time, which again doesn't perfectly mesh with quantum 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.640 mechanics or with relativity. So we have these three different 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:24.760 ideas of time. 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:29.040 Okay, so I think that I have lost where we 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.120 are heading to. So now we have we have a 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.000 lot of different definitions of time. Initially we were trying 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.200 to lump space and time. The road that we are 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:40.480 taking is eventually supposed to get us to wear. 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:43.760 Again, so that's our primerund space and time now. So 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:47.360 in this question was are we moving forwards in time 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.240 because the universe is expanding or does this have something 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:54.600 to do with gravity? What's pulling us forwards in time? Essentially? 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:57.839 And it's true that the expansion of the universe seems 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.440 to have a direction in time also, right, like, as 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.800 time goes on, the universe gets bigger and its entropy 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.680 is growing. So ooh, that feels like maybe there's a 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.679 connection there. But number one, it's not required for the 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.920 universe to keep expanding. Like if the universe had had 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:16.760 more mass in it and less dark energy, or if 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.520 it had a different topology, like it was curved more, 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:23.959 it could have contracted. Right, the universe when it began expanding, 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.239 that expansion was initially slowing down. It was always expanding, 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.320 but that expansion was decelerating until dark energy ramped up 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:33.840 and took over and accelerated it. But it could have 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:38.360 been in other universes that it decelerated, stopped, and then contracted. 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:42.000 So the universe is not required to expand as time 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:46.040 goes forward. It's not like thermodynamics, where entropy increases with time. 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:49.640 The expansion of the universe could have various directions. Okay, 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:53.320 so I don't think the expansion explains why time goes forwards, 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:55.439 but it is true that as time goes forward and 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.400 the universe is expanding, the entropy grows, right, And this 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:01.680 is one of The greatest mystery actually about time and entropy, 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.760 which is that the early universe started out really really 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.400 low entropy. Right, Enterpy is going to increase, and eventually 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:12.040 we're going to reach a maximum entropy where everything is 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:14.880 like spread out and there's no useful energy. There's still 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:19.680 like energy floating around, but there's no useful energy, no differences, right, Like, 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:21.960 if everything is the same temperature, there's no way for 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:25.000 energy to flow and for you to do anything. And 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.160 so that's a pretty boring universe. And what's fascinating is 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.600 that our universe started out really really far from that. 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.280 So it's going to take a long time to get 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.160 to the heat death. It could have been that our 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.400 universe started out like pretty close to the heat death 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:39.960 and like five seconds later we were at the heat death. 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:44.240 One of the deep mysteries of cosmology and theroodynamics and 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:48.240 time is why we started out with such low entropy. 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:50.160 I guess we might not be here if that hadn't 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:50.680 been the case. 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.200 Yeah, so that's a great argument. It's the anthropic one. 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.480 Only in universes that do start out with very low 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.520 entropy do you get people asking, hey, why is there 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.040 such a low entropy? Right? Because the other ones just 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.240 have a bunch of photons flying around. Another comment on 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:09.840 this thermodynamic arrow of time. Some people argue that the 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:13.080 thermodynamic era of time is the arrow of time. The 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.960 fact that entropy grows with time forces time to go forwards, 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.160 because the second law says entropy has to go up, 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:21.720 and therefore time has to go forwards. And I'm not 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:23.640 sure I buy that as an argument. 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.280 You're not sure you buy the second law of thermodynamics 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:28.360 full statement, Daniel. 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.680 Oh no, I'm deeply invested in the second law. But 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.840 the second law says time and entropy are connected, doesn't 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.760 say time has to go forwards. You know, if time 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:40.680 went the other way, it would just mean that we're 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.840 in the universe that entropy is decreasing, so it couples 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:45.800 time and enter by. But I don't see how it 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.560 forces time to go this way instead of the other way. 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:52.200 Maybe in some other universe where entropy is constantly decreasing, 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.200 they're wondering why time goes their direction right, which we 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.840 would call backwards anyway. So nobody knows the answer to 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:02.520 this question, Sonyafor we don't know why time is different 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:04.880 from space, because it seems so similar. We don't know 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.840 how to unify time from a throodynamic point of view 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.040 and a quantum mechanical point of view and a relativity 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.280 point of view. We hope to one day figure that out. 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:15.720 We don't know why time just goes forwards. It does 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.440 seem somehow connected to entropy, but I don't think it's 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.000 connected to the expansion of the universe. 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.600 All right, well, let's yep this answer over to Sonia 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.880 and see what she has to say. Does it What 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.960 was the word that Hazel used, slay? All right, let's 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:33.479 see if it's slays. 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.000 Hey, Daniel and Gelli, thank you so much for taking 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:40.320 the time to answer my question. I have been bounded 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:42.920 officially by my family from trying to use words like sleigh, 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.360 So I shall just say that was a fantastic unpacking 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:48.720 of all the reasons we don't know the answer. I 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.560 do you think though, over the last twenty thirty years 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:55.280 we've made so many advances in understanding. I wonder whether 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.000 maybe in my lifetime we might work it out. And 0:15:58.040 --> 0:15:59.720 if we do, maybe you can explain it to me. 0:15:59.760 --> 0:15:59.920 Then. 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:01.920 Thanks again, love the show. 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.200 All right, we took a little break and we're ready 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.480 to answer more questions from listeners. So those of you 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:30.600 who are gently falling asleep, don't because this question is 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:32.600 very important for you. Get up and stretch, do a 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.000 jumping jack, and pay close attention. 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:39.320 Let's go ahead and listen to Thomas's amazing question about sleeping. 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:46.240 Hey, this is Matt the sound guy. Thomas was not 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.520 available to read his questions, so I'll do it in 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:55.000 his stead. Hi, I just finished and enjoyed your episode 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.440 about aging. As a seventy seven year old who exercises daily, 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:02.520 I still find my sleep as very disrupted. My question is, 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:07.040 if one takes sleep aids i e. ADVILPM or melatonin, 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:09.119 is sleep as beneficial? 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:14.240 I love this question. I want to know the answer 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:16.360 to this question. Also, thank you Thomas for asking it. 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:18.639 Well, okay, so maybe this the answer is going to 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:20.840 be relevant to you because you indicated that when you 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.959 turned fifty you started rounding your age up to one hundred. 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.880 But I specifically set up an answer for this question 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:32.720 for the impact of sleep aids on older folks because 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.919 it turns out that the answers depend a lot on 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:39.080 why you aren't sleeping well, which I'll get into. But 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.040 first I'd like to note that Thomas is referring to 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.440 the why do We Age episode where we interviewed doctor 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:49.000 Vanki Ramakrishnan, and that was from October ninth, twenty twenty five. 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:51.040 Super fun conversations, super fun. 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.240 He's so good at explaining concepts. And Gina Poe, Doctor 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.760 Gina Poe is also great at explaining ideas, and we 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.240 had her on to talk about why we sleep and dream? 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:02.639 So another great episode to check out. That was August 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:03.920 twenty first, twenty twenty five. 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:05.879 And so this is gonna be like a crossover between 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:06.640 our two episodes. 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.360 Yeah, kind of a crossover. And I you know, of course, 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.159 after remind everybody, I am not a medical doctor, and 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.040 if you are suffering from disrupted sleep, you should talk 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:17.639 to a medical professional. And this discussion is in no 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:21.160 way comprehensive. Okay. 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.720 And by a medical professional, do you mean chat gibt 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:25.440 or do you mean like an actually human person? 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:27.479 I mean an actual human person. 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.800 Yeah, and yet you use chat GPT for medical advice? 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.440 Are you talking about my decision to go to the 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:37.439 er recently? Yes, no, it's true, I did so. I 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.520 guess I'll tell that story now. So I was crawling 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:45.000 around on the bathroom floor in incredible pain, and I 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:46.560 had been in pain all day and I just started 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.040 throwing up, and Zach was like, you should go to 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:50.800 the er, and I was like, I don't want to 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:52.680 go to the er because I'm gonna have to sit 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.080 in an er for hours and be uncomfortable in the 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:57.320 horrible chairs, and i just want to find a position 0:18:57.359 --> 0:18:59.399 where I'm comfortable and I'll stay home all day. And 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:02.640 Zach look on chat GPT and chat GPT immediately said, 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:05.600 your wife has gallstones. She needs to go to the er. 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:09.320 And it was right. I went to the er and 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:11.520 they immediately brought me to the back and they were like, 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:12.480 you have gallstones. 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:16.000 And they didn't use CHATCHEAPT, did they. 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.200 I hope not? Well. I mean, they eventually gave me 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.080 an ultrasound and they were like, look, you have gallstones. 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:25.040 And turns out I had four gallstones, each about two 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:28.080 centimeters wide. And then I looked at my post operative 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.200 notes and they had to cut a bigger hole where 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:32.560 my belly button was because the gallstones were making it 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:34.320 so hard to get the gallbladder out because they were 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:37.760 so big. Anyway, more than anyone needed to know, chat 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.959 GPT is sometimes a helpful tool, yes, But in general, 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:45.000 if you're having disrupted sleep, which is very common in 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.840 the elderly population, and if it's bothering you, you should 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:53.080 talk to a medical professional, all right. So there are 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.360 lots of reasons why people have disrupted sleep at various 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:00.920 different ages, and those problems can impact the kinds of 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.280 sleep aids that you might want to take. So some 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.440 people have a trouble sleeping because of anxiety, or because 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:10.960 of depression, or because of pain. But I decided that 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:14.399 I was going to look at just problems related to 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:18.080 sleep when you're aging. And so for example, when folks age, 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.600 they produce less melatonin. And melatonin is a hormone that 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.119 our body uses to control our circadian rhythms. So we 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.679 make more melatonin when it's supposed to be dark outside 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.880 at night. That's the part of how our body tells ourselves, oh, 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:33.720 it's time to go to sleep, and older people make 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:34.520 less of it. 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:36.520 Is that the one that people often take when they're 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:38.200 on an airplane to help them with jet lag. 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:42.360 Yes, exactly, exactly. So one thing I'd like to notice 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:44.080 that when I read a bunch of these papers, the 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:47.680 first thing that most of these papers said was, Look, 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:50.320 if you're having trouble sleeping, the first thing you should 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:54.679 try isn't a sleep aid. It's exercise, which Thomas is 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:58.719 already doing. And then it's cognitive behavior therapy to improve 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.480 sleep or other sleep hygiene things. And so there's a 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.000 bunch of stuff you're supposed to try before you start 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:07.040 trying to take medications, because a lot of medications have 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:09.200 side effects that are not ideal. 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.400 So first, like, make sure you get exercise during the day, 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.679 make sure you're sleeping in a cool, dark, quiet place 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:17.919 you don't have like toddlers jumping up and down in 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:18.639