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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to People Who Did Cool Stuff podcast,

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Speaker 1: where I usually try to shoe worn in as many

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Speaker 1: jokes as possible, but now I'm contractually obliged to me

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Speaker 1: slightly uncomfortable about how bleak the story is and all

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Speaker 1: of that. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy, and with me

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Speaker 1: today is Miriam Roacheck. Miriam, how are you doing doing okay?

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to see how how bleak this gets and

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Speaker 1: where you can shoehorn jokes in maybe. And Sophie is

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Speaker 1: our producer. Hi, Sophie h Margaret Hello, already said hi,

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Speaker 1: Ian as our editor, and I can say Hi to Ian,

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Speaker 1: but Ian can't say Hi back unless he splices in

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Speaker 1: his own audio. Hi Ian Hi, Ian high Ien and

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Speaker 1: on woman wrote our theme song. And so like every

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Speaker 1: second episode, here's where I say Hey, go back and

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Speaker 1: listen to the first episode. They're basically all two parters,

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Speaker 1: and this is part two. Today we are talking about

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Speaker 1: the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, and last episod we talked about

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Speaker 1: the boond and the situation in general at the start

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Speaker 1: of the invasion of Poland. But now let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the ghetto and the aforementioned uprising. That happens in the ghetto,

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Speaker 1: thus the name Warsaw Ghetto upright. Okay, So Jewish refugees

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Speaker 1: they fled into Warsaw to the German occupation. They're hoping

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Speaker 1: for safety and anonymity. In numbers, the Jewish population of

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Speaker 1: the city went from three fifty people to five thousand people,

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Speaker 1: which is in a city of like one point three

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Speaker 1: million people, So a solid quarter of the population. Even

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Speaker 1: before of the influx refugees were Jewish, and even before

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Speaker 1: the war, it was the single largest collections of Jews,

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Speaker 1: at least in Europe. I think only New York City

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Speaker 1: is in the is in the running for largest Jewish

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Speaker 1: cities in the world. At the time, it was the

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Speaker 1: the political center of the European Jewish world. And not

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Speaker 1: everyone who came after the invasion was refugee either. A

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Speaker 1: good number of Jewish and Polish fighters smuggled themselves into

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Speaker 1: the city because that's where they were need it. The

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Speaker 1: Jewish population couldn't handle the influx, not really. Apartments were crammed,

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Speaker 1: food was short, people died every day. Jews were fired

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Speaker 1: from almost every job except for like the most manual

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Speaker 1: of manual labor. Germans prohibited making clothes and shoes and

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Speaker 1: shipped for the Jewish market. So people started making shoes

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Speaker 1: with wooden soles and like fabric uppers, soap and candles

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Speaker 1: were forbidden. Illegal factories were set up everywhere, and whole

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Speaker 1: swath of the Jewish population entered into the underground economy

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Speaker 1: by necessity. And this is this is before the ghetto

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Speaker 1: itself is created, right, this is just this is just

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Speaker 1: wartime ship yeah, um, wartime anti Semitism. But yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so the shortages of basically everything, and the Jews overall

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Speaker 1: are not turning on each other. They did what disaster

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Speaker 1: studies have shown time and time again that communities can

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Speaker 1: do and often do during crisis. They set up elaborate

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Speaker 1: and organic systems of mutual aid. And this isn't like

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Speaker 1: a garon go ahead, No, that that like is what

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Speaker 1: people do. Um, everyone should read a paradise built in Hell. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Rebecca Solnt Rebecca Solent. Yes. And so this wasn't a

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Speaker 1: totally guaranteed thing in this particular situation, because things are

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Speaker 1: get real fucking dire, and so it took active work

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Speaker 1: by the various political organizations to keep people cohesive and

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Speaker 1: mutually supportive, which is maybe the single most important and

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Speaker 1: impactful resistance they offered up because no one knew how

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Speaker 1: long this ship was going to go on, right right? Um?

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Speaker 1: And I like the guns and the dead nazis part

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Speaker 1: of this story, like an awful lot. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: like everyone loves that. I can't imagine anyone is a

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Speaker 1: problem with that. We privileged violent resistance sometimes slightly too

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Speaker 1: much in history, kind of like you were talking about.

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Speaker 1: And these mutual a groups. They set up orphanages and

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Speaker 1: clinics and soup kitchens. They literally invented a new kind

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Speaker 1: of lamp that burns calcium carbide, like mixed with water

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Speaker 1: or something. I do not understand this chemically. Look, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how lamps work. I just know that Comrade

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Speaker 1: Bernard would take a dude out with that thing. However,

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Speaker 1: it works absolutely, and they're like lamps. We see, we

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Speaker 1: see the attraction of lamps. I tried to look. I

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Speaker 1: tried to figure out what calcium carbide was being used

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Speaker 1: for at the time, why they could access it but

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Speaker 1: not these other things. And I couldn't figure it out.

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Speaker 1: The Boon had soup kitchens, the Zionists had their kitchens,

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Speaker 1: The Orthodox had their kitchens and the Poual Zionists had

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Speaker 1: theirs Poal zion is Um is basically Marxist zion is Um.

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Speaker 1: They split from the Boond when the Boond was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're good, we don't we don't need Zionism the Boond,

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Speaker 1: they set up the Socialist Red Cross. They provide medical

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Speaker 1: care and hide fugitives, which is cooler than just providing

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Speaker 1: medical care rules, don't get me wrong, But if you

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Speaker 1: can tie it together with also hiding fugitives, that's just bonus.

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Speaker 1: I mean doing anything plus hiding fugitives really, like you

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Speaker 1: could be selling ice cream and hiding fugitives whatever, like,

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Speaker 1: still cooler than just selling ice cream. I think there

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Speaker 1: comes a point in history for all over, like again

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Speaker 1: and again and again, there comes a point in history

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Speaker 1: where you're sort of morally obliged to do everything plus

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Speaker 1: hide fugitives. You know, I'm a dog walker and I

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Speaker 1: hid fugitives. Like great, don't tell me that, sty, Why

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Speaker 1: did you tell me that? I'm a person who doesn't

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Speaker 1: talk about hiding fugitives on Twitter or in public. And

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Speaker 1: also I hied fugitives, right, that's the vibe you need. Yeah, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: And they also set up illegal schools for kids that

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Speaker 1: no one was supposed to be teaching Jews, but they

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Speaker 1: did it anyway, of course, so you could also be

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Speaker 1: an illegal school teacher, which also rules and the boond

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Speaker 1: In addition to setting up releaf organizations, they also immediately

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Speaker 1: set up illegal trade unions because they rule and wanted

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Speaker 1: to do cool ship, and we're like, well, we gotta

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Speaker 1: set up trade unions. This underground organization had a cell

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Speaker 1: structure where each personally knew five to ten others within

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Speaker 1: their own cell that you know, would report up the

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Speaker 1: little hierarchy tree of cell structure revolution stuff to prevent

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Speaker 1: infiltration and torture from bringing the whole thing down, because

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Speaker 1: if one person gets caught, they can only read out

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Speaker 1: their cell effectively um and their handler the cells handler.

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Speaker 1: They make contact with the Polish resistance as well, and

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Speaker 1: they rely on contacts that they've made during their decades

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Speaker 1: of political organizing. One of their contacts is a Polish

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Speaker 1: socialist leader, Anton Zanowski, and he survived German occupation only

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Speaker 1: to be immediately arrested and killed by the Soviets after liberation.

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Speaker 1: All right, we have made it six minutes in Margaret's

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Speaker 1: coming for the Soviets. You do not disappoint, thank you

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Speaker 1: very much. You're welcome. You're welcome over here all day.

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Speaker 1: The Boons even had a printing press. Of course, the

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Speaker 1: Nazis confiscated all the Jewish impresses, leaving only one for

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Speaker 1: the jude rat Uh. The collaborationist organization. I can't even

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Speaker 1: say collaborationist, that's how much I hate it. But some

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Speaker 1: of the Buddhists, they're thinking ahead and they've already hidden

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Speaker 1: to Mimeo raft machines well ahead of time. Nice. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: they were prepared. I mean you need backup the preppers.

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Speaker 1: You should take note, like maybe I don't know what,

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Speaker 1: maybe a photo copier or printer these days. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's something to think about, right, like how are you

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Speaker 1: going to just how are you going to make zines?

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Speaker 1: Like how are you going to distribute information? Which absolutely

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Speaker 1: is necessary. Yeah, And so the printers and distributors don't

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Speaker 1: really know each other in order to so neither could

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Speaker 1: wrap the other out. And most of the distributors of

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Speaker 1: the illegal papers that they set up are women because

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Speaker 1: when they're stopped in the street, they're stopped in the

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Speaker 1: street less often by random press gangs because more men

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Speaker 1: are being pressed into work, and Bernard Goldstein helps edit

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Speaker 1: a semi monthly paper that they just called bulletin to

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Speaker 1: avoid it being too obviously attached to the boond so

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Speaker 1: that wouldn't be repressed. Um. Once the Gestapo figured out

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Speaker 1: that it was called bullets In, they changed his name

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Speaker 1: to the Call and later Storm, which honestly seems like

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Speaker 1: a way to track the escalation of events that happened.

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Speaker 1: I was just thinking, it really like just ramps up

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Speaker 1: as you go. Yeah, but you know, points to them

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Speaker 1: because like at that time, people naming any kind of

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Speaker 1: leftist journal like physically could not call it, you know,

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Speaker 1: the worker's friend or like the banner of socialism or

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Speaker 1: like red flag like it was. It was a huge

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Speaker 1: effort on their part, I'm sure as generically as they did.

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Speaker 1: And like, good job, guys, that meeting must have been awful.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's sitting in there, tense as hell, being like, but

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Speaker 1: why can't we call it the workers bulletin? Everyone's a worker, No,

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Speaker 1: be quiet, it's just the bulletin. But everyone's a worker.

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Speaker 1: But they don't know that with the silent worker, yeah, totally,

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Speaker 1: the worker is silent, but not silent. This is how

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Speaker 1: we have a voice. Okay. Anyway, so they funded all

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Speaker 1: with this really interesting money laundering scheme because everyone in Poland,

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Speaker 1: Jewish and Polish are trying to get all their money

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Speaker 1: the funk out of the country, right because they're occupied.

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Speaker 1: And the boon has supporters all over the world because

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Speaker 1: internationalism fucking rules, and especially in New York City at

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Speaker 1: this particular point. So some Polish person would give the

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Speaker 1: boond money and then the boond would tell their comrades

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Speaker 1: in the US okay, now give the same amount of

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Speaker 1: money to a person designated by the funder. So basically,

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Speaker 1: like you know that that way, the boond in the

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Speaker 1: US donates to the boond in Poland, and the person

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Speaker 1: in Poland gets to get their money the funk out

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Speaker 1: of the country to their family abroad. So the money

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Speaker 1: doesn't actually change hands to somebody in the US. There's

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Speaker 1: just the boond in the US is just paying the

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Speaker 1: money out. Yeah. So like so, like John wants to

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Speaker 1: give money to his brother James who's in New York City,

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Speaker 1: but he can't get his money out of the country,

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Speaker 1: so he gives money to the boond and then the

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Speaker 1: boond donates money to I already forgot which name I used,

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Speaker 1: but the guy in New York. Okay, so then the

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Speaker 1: New York wound gives the money to to James, right right. Yeah. No,

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Speaker 1: it took me a while. I was like trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out how to write this out because like I

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Speaker 1: had to read the paragraph like four times. But it's

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Speaker 1: fucking brilliant. Yeah. So no money actually crosses the border, correct,

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Speaker 1: because the boond is in both places. Um, the money

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Speaker 1: given to the boond in Poland counts as far as

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Speaker 1: the boond in New York is concerned. Yeah, because I

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Speaker 1: love it. In the end, it's like the boond in

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Speaker 1: the US is giving money to boond in Poland because

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Speaker 1: borders are fake. Yeah, and probably the ones in New

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Speaker 1: York were like, but couldn't it be called the workers bulletin?

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Speaker 1: Like we're financing it? What if it was called worker

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Speaker 1: revolt paper? Yeah? What about like the Star of Socialism

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Speaker 1: workers Call to Arms? Yeah totally. Yeah, so the people

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Speaker 1: Star of Socialism works totally. Yeah. Um, they'll take that

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Speaker 1: one back, they'll workshop it a little more. Yeah yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it could be longer. And then finally, at some point

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Speaker 1: someone just like I already printed it. It's called bulletin.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if you knew this, but Nazis

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Speaker 1: hate books. Yeah, I mean, I guess they like some books,

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Speaker 1: but overall there's not a books. Yeah. They are the

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Speaker 1: weird old action novels that I can't remember the name

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Speaker 1: of the guy who wrote them all. So, and the

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Speaker 1: Nazis are coming for the books. So the Jews tunnel

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Speaker 1: secretly into their own library, friend of the Pod tunneling,

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Speaker 1: and they smuggle books out of their own library, like

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Speaker 1: among sacks of potatoes, Friend of the Pod, Potatoes and

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Speaker 1: ship like that, the collaboration we've all been waiting for.

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Speaker 1: This is it the ultimate team up right, Tunnels and potatoes,

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Speaker 1: I know. And then they set up libraries everywhere across

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Speaker 1: the ghetto with all of the saved books. I love that,

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Speaker 1: and I love a heist, so breaking into your own

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Speaker 1: library also very good. The Nazis are really into collective punishment,

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Speaker 1: not just for the Jews but for all of the

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Speaker 1: Polish occupied territory. So like they find a Polish intellectual

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Speaker 1: with a radio, and then they just round up hundreds

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Speaker 1: of Jewish and Polish intellectuals and shoot them in the streets.

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Speaker 1: A German officer gets killed, or some railways are sabotaged,

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Speaker 1: entire villages are destroyed. Another time in April, and anti

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Speaker 1: Semite attacks an elderly Jew, and so a younger Jew

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Speaker 1: beats the ship out of the anti Semite like you do,

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Speaker 1: and police arrest and kill the younger Jew, and then

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Speaker 1: this whole program starts, and the community defense Orgs they

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Speaker 1: want to do something about it, but they also don't

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Speaker 1: want to just make everything worse. There's all this collective

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Speaker 1: punishment happening, and they're like, these are the tense meeting.

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Speaker 1: They're probably a little less tense than what do we

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Speaker 1: name the paper, but these are tense meetings. And they

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Speaker 1: decide upon that age old compromise. They will beat the

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Speaker 1: ship out of the programaths, but they'll use iron pipes

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Speaker 1: and brass knuckles and leave the knives and at home

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Speaker 1: a kinder gentler. Yeah, to be fair, they don't have

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Speaker 1: a lot of guns. This comes up as a problem

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Speaker 1: in the near future. But so it starts off in

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Speaker 1: the Jewish quarter. Even before there's a formal ghetto, there

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Speaker 1: was racial segregation in the city. All the Jewish workers

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Speaker 1: crewed up and they and fought off the Pogramas, and

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Speaker 1: this spreads across the whole city. Non Jewish socialists joined

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Speaker 1: the Jewish side, and fighting runs until the a p m.

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Speaker 1: Curfew and everyone goes home and then starts up again

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Speaker 1: in the morning in a citywide brawl. I'm just I'm

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Speaker 1: just thinking like that. I don't I don't think that's

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Speaker 1: like what the curfew is intended to do is to

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Speaker 1: like just make sure all the brawlers go home and

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Speaker 1: get a good night's rest before they come back out

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Speaker 1: and continue brawling. Yeah. I mean, probably from the Nazi

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Speaker 1: point of view, they're like, look, the fucking Poles are

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Speaker 1: fighting the Jews. Who fucking cares, you know. But I'm

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Speaker 1: fully on the side of the people who are fighting.

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Speaker 1: The pogramas. The date any time going home for curfew

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Speaker 1: like caught me off guard that that was the move.

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Speaker 1: But it sounds like if both sides go home and

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Speaker 1: you just come back in the morning and like they're

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Speaker 1: still there to fight, Okay, it works out and you've

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Speaker 1: had a good night's sleep, which is important. And this

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Speaker 1: goes on for I think three days. And the weirdest

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Speaker 1: thing about this it works there's no collective punishment response,

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Speaker 1: maybe because it had been so widespread, and tons of

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Speaker 1: new people show up to the boon being like sign

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Speaker 1: me up, please, glad someone's doing something, and the Polish

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Speaker 1: Resistance starts looking a bit more seriously at anti Semitism.

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Speaker 1: They're still not great, right, but they like they have

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Speaker 1: their like moments where they start being like, okay, like

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Speaker 1: maybe we should care about this because in this case,

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Speaker 1: uh democratic parts of the Polish Resistance, there's all kinds

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Speaker 1: of different parts of it. The democratic parties within it

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Speaker 1: are like, oh, anti Semitism is a Nazi thing, and

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Speaker 1: we don't like Nazis. I get the impression that the

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Speaker 1: right wing was still like whatever. And because of the

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Speaker 1: actions of the Jews who refused to build the ghetto

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Speaker 1: for the Nazis, the segregation the city happens somewhat more

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Speaker 1: slowly and not nearly so fast as the Nazis would

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Speaker 1: have preferred. And in the end this delay didn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: winding up saving all that many people, but it certainly

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Speaker 1: could have. Right. That's the thing about war. That's the

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Speaker 1: thing that really kept hitting me as I was reading this,

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Speaker 1: like researching this, and also talking with what you were

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Speaker 1: talking about the end of last episode, Like you don't

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Speaker 1: know what the funk is going to happen, right, Like

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Speaker 1: if you delay really bad ship for a month in

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Speaker 1: the middle of World War two, like that could just

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Speaker 1: as easily have saved everybody, you know. Yeah, absolutely, and

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Speaker 1: like enough small delays and enough, like small things can

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Speaker 1: can mean a lot. Yeah, one neighborhood at a time. Though,

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Speaker 1: the Nazis start kicking the Jews out of their houses

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Speaker 1: and stealing all their ship. In October ninety, more than

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Speaker 1: a year after the occupation, they announced the ghetto, which

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Speaker 1: the jude and rat had helped organize in the end,

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Speaker 1: helping build the wall and all that ship. All the

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Speaker 1: Jews had to move in, all non Jews had to

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Speaker 1: move out. Hundred and fifty thousand Jews move into the ghetto,

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Speaker 1: eighty thousand non Jews move out over the course of

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Speaker 1: two weeks. This is not a sad thing for the

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Speaker 1: non Jews because they all get to go occupy the

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Speaker 1: much nicer apartments that they're moving into. Because this is

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Speaker 1: not entirely but a lot of this is the wealthier

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Speaker 1: Jews being moved into the ghetto, and the mutual aid

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Speaker 1: groups spring into action and they help people move, but

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Speaker 1: they also guard people's possessions that are like strown about

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Speaker 1: on the street during the course of the move and

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Speaker 1: the boones roaming the streets with tea and bread, like

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Speaker 1: making sure everyone has what they need. Um and the

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Speaker 1: newly established ghetto. The rule is that every room has

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Speaker 1: to have at least four occupants, but the average was nine,

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Speaker 1: and pretty much all the public buildings were living quarters

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Speaker 1: as well. Typhus typhoid and dysentery ran rampant. No medicine

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Speaker 1: was allowed. In six to seven thousand people died every

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Speaker 1: fucking month in the ghetto. That's more than one percent

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Speaker 1: of the population dying of disease every fucking up. Um,

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Speaker 1: disease and starvation. And to the Nazis, the Jewish Jewish

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Speaker 1: is a race to a Nazi, right, So this also

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Speaker 1: means that there's several thousand Catholics with some vague Jewish

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Speaker 1: heritage who were imprisoned in the ghetto. Um, a lot

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Speaker 1: of whom start off anti Jewish and a lot of

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Speaker 1: whom end up fighting alongside everyone else. Uh, because the

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Speaker 1: funk else are you going to do? Jews were forbidden

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Speaker 1: from speaking Polish in the city, So I guess this

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Speaker 1: means that the people who didn't speak yetishor Hebrew, like

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Speaker 1: literally couldn't talk in public legally. I'm not I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to whoe with whatever. I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: whoe with them. It's a fucking nightmare for everyone, because

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Speaker 1: being Catholic doesn't save you if you're right. So they

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Speaker 1: these were people who who had grown up speaking exclusively

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Speaker 1: Polish and then got classified as Jewish. Right who were

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Speaker 1: weren't even culturally Jewish, would have like, would just be

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Speaker 1: like generationally Catholic. There's also people, of course who converted

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Speaker 1: away from Judaism, them who were caught up by it

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Speaker 1: being a race thing. But a lot of the a

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Speaker 1: lot of these families were like, what do you mean

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Speaker 1: you know, um, yeah, I don't know, it's Jewish or whatever.

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Speaker 1: The whole thing is surrounded by a ten foot wall

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Speaker 1: with barbed wire, and anyone leaving was shot on site.

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Speaker 1: It's not a nice thing, but you said it in

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Speaker 1: a cheerful voice, that's right. Yeah. The whole thing was

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Speaker 1: clearly intended as a death camp. The Nazis were like,

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Speaker 1: oh great, we'll put all the juice here and then

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Speaker 1: just die. They don't not take care of themselves will

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Speaker 1: be dead. Disease and starvation was supposed to do in

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Speaker 1: the whole population, but folks just wouldn't die. I mean, okay,

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Speaker 1: a lot of them died, right, but not like the

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Speaker 1: Nazis hoped. People especially children, smuggled food in through cracks

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Speaker 1: in the wall, thrown over the wall. They had high

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Speaker 1: food on janitors, every which way they could could. Live

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Speaker 1: cows were driven over the wall on portable ramps. People

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Speaker 1: would roll up portable ramps, which I'm sure you had

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Speaker 1: to be fast, right, Yeah, I just I did not

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Speaker 1: expect live cows smuggling too, I know. And all the

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Speaker 1: animals one could smuggle. I think cows would be like

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Speaker 1: near the bottom. Just throw chickens over whatever you like. Tribute,

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Speaker 1: okay anyway, Yeah, as as in the documentary Monty Python

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Speaker 1: and the Holy Grail and the whole Bonty Python and

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Speaker 1: the Horse Saw Ghetto. Um they trebor cow in that movie, right,

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Speaker 1: I'm not believe so yeah, yeah, it's been a while,

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Speaker 1: it's been a while. Maybe it's a catapult, I don't remember.

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Speaker 1: Extra ration trucks get bribed through the checkpoints. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of briberries. How a lot of this gets done right. Uh.

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Speaker 1: At one point, someone in a building on the outside

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Speaker 1: of the ghetto, like literally with lower pipes down from

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Speaker 1: a window and just pour milk into the people would

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Speaker 1: like line up with buckets, I guess, and then just

360
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Speaker 1: pour milk through the um, through the through the pipe food.

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Speaker 1: We get packed into coffins and smuggled back into the

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Speaker 1: ghetto by undertakers who took bodies out of the took

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Speaker 1: bodies out for burial in nearby cemetery. Um And every

364
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Speaker 1: single person involved, the cow, small agler, or the pipe person, whatever,

365
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Speaker 1: every person involved on both sides is facing instant death

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Speaker 1: for doing this. But what the funk else are you

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Speaker 1: gonna do? You know? And two thousand Jewish men between

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Speaker 1: the ages of thirty and thirty five served in the

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Speaker 1: Jewish police Force, which was run by a violently anti

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Speaker 1: Semitic Jew. And I'm not just calling him that because

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Speaker 1: he's a fucking Nazi cop, but before the invasion, he

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Speaker 1: had been part of an anti Jewish political group. There's

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Speaker 1: always there's always a few. You got your fucking Ben

374
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Speaker 1: Shapiro's everywhere. Yeah, So he's he's fucking mad that he

375
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Speaker 1: got thrown in the ghetto too, so he becomes the

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Speaker 1: head of the cop. Yeah, there's all these Jews here. Yeah,

377
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Speaker 1: I know. I spent my whole life organizing against myself,

378
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Speaker 1: and the Jewish cops helped the Nazis every step of

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Speaker 1: the way. They guide Nazis to the ghetto on their

380
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Speaker 1: mission to find and kill people. They do it all.

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Speaker 1: There was even tops or cops. There was even Jewish

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Speaker 1: secret police, a couple hundred that were called thirteen Ers,

383
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Speaker 1: named after the address their headquarters, who were working directly

384
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Speaker 1: with the Gestapo to stop smuggling and cracked down on

385
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Speaker 1: political radicals. Hate it so much? Yeah, oh god, the

386
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,920
Speaker 1: cops and the secret police and the juice who literally

387
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 1: worked with the Gestapo and collaborationist merchants and all that ship.

388
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,679
Speaker 1: They lived in the ghetto too, but they lived a

389
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,879
Speaker 1: very different life. They for a little while. Yeah, this

390
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,639
Speaker 1: didn't work out for them long term, it did not

391
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Speaker 1: correct they but for a little while they hung out

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Speaker 1: at cafes and ate their fill and ignored curfew and

393
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 1: lived privileged lives while destroying everyone else. Okay, and then

394
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,239
Speaker 1: the Nazis set up factories for their war machine and

395
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Speaker 1: forced the Jews to work building parts of the bunkers

396
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Speaker 1: and other ship like brush factories and stuff for the

397
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Speaker 1: war effort. The workers were paid, which is actually kind

398
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Speaker 1: of in an awful way, sort of makes everything worse

399
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Speaker 1: because you get this dividing conquered strategy happening constantly in

400
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Speaker 1: the Warsaw ghetto and and the dividing conquer right, it

401
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 1: was within Jews, but it's obviously also within the broader population. Uh.

402
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Speaker 1: The rations available to us was less than two hundred

403
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Speaker 1: calories a day. The rations available to polls was less

404
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Speaker 1: than seven hundred calories a day, which is like way better, right,

405
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Speaker 1: that's like three and a half times more food. But

406
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Speaker 1: those are both those are both starvation diets. Yeah, about

407
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Speaker 1: calories is what you need to the average person. Everybody

408
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 1: is different. To not die, you need about twelve calories

409
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 1: a day. Um so seven. Wow, you sure are doing

410
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 1: great there, buddy. Under occupation, German occupiers got around twenty

411
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Speaker 1: calories a day. In the face of all this, the

412
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Speaker 1: Bone turns its attention to one task above all others.

413
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Speaker 1: Get some fucking guns and reasonable. Yeah, they build bridges

414
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Speaker 1: with the Polish Home Home Army, which is the resistance movement,

415
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Speaker 1: but most especially they're building bridges to get some fucking guns,

416
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Speaker 1: and they're being pretty careful not to bring repression down

417
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Speaker 1: on themselves and not get too violent too quick, because

418
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 1: the Nazis love of collective punishment. But at one point

419
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Speaker 1: one of their printers gets found and tortured and murdered.

420
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Speaker 1: He didn't give up any names despite weeks of torture,

421
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: which good on him. Um. And the boond comes across

422
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 1: a Jewish cop who's looting his corpse in the street.

423
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Speaker 1: So the boond, to quote Bernard Goldstein, dealt with the

424
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: Jewish policeman appropriately. I love some evocative understatement. Yeah, probably

425
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: didn't like set him up with a nice apartment or something. Yeah,

426
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,199
Speaker 1: that I have some I have some ideas of what

427
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: that could mean. But you know who else will set you,

428
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: will deal with you, set you up in nice apartments.

429
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 1: Um uh, help me out here, I'm drowning. Um. Now,

430
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: this is a this this is a trap of your

431
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: own devising. I can't get you out of this one.

432
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: I don't think there's a way out of this one. Market.

433
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 1: Welcome to some advertisers. H And we are back. We

434
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 1: are back, and we are talking about you know, we

435
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: were talking about you didn't come start the show during

436
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: the ad probably skipped forward thirty seconds, yeah, and then

437
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,679
Speaker 1: another thirty seconds and now we're here, and then you

438
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: had to skip back thirty seconds because you overshot, which,

439
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 1: fun fact, is part of the reason that there's a

440
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 1: music bumper between the ads. So that, yeah, it's really helpful.

441
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 1: It's intentional. Yeah, so don't tell the advertisers. Oh yeah, yeah, no,

442
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 1: don't don't worry. Potatoes, don't listen to the show. They

443
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: don't have ears, they only have eyes. He said, you

444
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: weren't going to make any jokes. Yeah, yeah, Margaret, how

445
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: dare you be funny? Never trusting you again? Fair enough? Okay,

446
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: so they're being pretty careful not to bring any repression. No,

447
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: I can't do it like that either. That doesn't work. Okay,

448
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: So you're funny an unintentional in ninety two. Oh my god,

449
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: Now I just really set myself up because now I

450
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 1: really you have to get worse. You just have to

451
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: embrace it, like yeah, talking about horrible things. It doesn't

452
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, like it's you know, you just got a

453
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 1: power through it. The Nazis started importing more and more

454
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: people into the ghetto, including well to do German Jews

455
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: who get to hang out at the cafes with the

456
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: cops and the collaborationists and ship. Some of these Jews

457
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 1: who got imported actually had sons serving in the Nazi army,

458
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: so they were rooting for the Nazis the whole time

459
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: because they wanted their sons to do well. In the end,

460
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 1: everyone at these cafes suffer the same fate as everyone else,

461
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: class for collaboration and known is not enough to save you.

462
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 1: And then also during this time, Roma folks start being

463
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: imported into the ghetto as well as check Jews, and

464
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: by summer of nineteen forty two, the Nazis are just

465
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 1: walking around shooting people for fun in the streets, and

466
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: in July the deport stations begin. Ten thousand people a

467
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: day are told that they're off to work elsewhere. The

468
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 1: boond and others know that what's up there, like there's

469
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: no fucking way that this is what's happening, and they

470
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: want people to to hide or fight. They released a

471
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: statement printed out posted everywhere they could. Jews, you are

472
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 1: being deceived. Do not believe that you are being sent

473
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: to work and nothing else. Actually, you are being led

474
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: to your deaths. This is the devilish continuation of the

475
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: campaign of extermination, which has already been carried out in

476
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: the provinces. Do not let them take you to your death.

477
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: Voluntarily resist, fight tooth and nail, Do not report to

478
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,479
Speaker 1: the umschlag plots. Fight for your lives. It's here that

479
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 1: maybe it's worth pointing out that hiding is at least

480
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: as valid as tactic as fighting, right, Like they want

481
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: people to hide or fight whatever, Like people get so

482
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: hung up on fighting. I know. I keep hitting that

483
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: point because like, choosing where you die as cool as ship.

484
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: But if their purpose is to kill you, not dying

485
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 1: is a really good way to Not dying is great

486
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: if at all possible. Yeah, you want to see different history,

487
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: You've got to live. Not dying is like one of

488
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: my top favorite things to do. I do it every day.

489
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: You get that little death of sleep, But that one's okay.

490
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: Every day so far, no dying. Yeah, I hope that

491
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: we can both continue. Okay, So so Adam Schernikov. He's

492
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: the head of the June Rat, and I've been leaving

493
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: him out of the story for the most part because

494
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 1: fuck them, fuck the June Rat. But he didn't He's

495
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: not like the cops in terms of his motivations. At

496
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: the very least, he didn't go at it with the

497
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: goal of collaborating. He didn't want to betray his people.

498
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 1: He was trying to use compromise as the way to

499
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: help people survive and not die. Right. I think there

500
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: were like a substantial number of people who thought, like, oh, well,

501
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: if I'm in this position, I can like make things

502
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 1: less terrible, which, like, that's a very self serving belief

503
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: you have given yourself there. But it's not totally crazy,

504
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 1: you know, it's not like it's not you know, it

505
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: is it is understandable why somebody might think that that's reasonable,

506
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 1: like that that might work. I mean, people still join

507
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: the fucking police force now thinking maybe I'll change it

508
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: from the inside. And I think that there's like, I mean,

509
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 1: the cops who joined I have I have nothing nice

510
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: to say about them, right except for the ones who

511
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: later recant. And even then, you know, but this guy

512
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: made a call that I've never been in a situation

513
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: where I have to make a call like that. It

514
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: doesn't look great. And after the after the mass deportations begin,

515
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: he knows the truth of what compromised with fascism where

516
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: it was taking everyone. So he went kind of one

517
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: last time. He goes and he pledged for the orphans,

518
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: their orphanages all over the ghetto. For some rodd reason,

519
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: a lot of people have parents, and he asked that

520
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: the children not be deported, and they refused him. And

521
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: he went home and he were a letter to his

522
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: wife and he ate Cyanide and his letter to his

523
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: wife said, they demand me to kill children of my

524
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: nation with my own hands. I have nothing to do

525
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: but die. After his death, members of the June Route

526
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: were forced to physically assist the Jewish police and rounding

527
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: up people for deportation or face deportation themselves. And at

528
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: the same time the cops get told you have to

529
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,959
Speaker 1: catch seven people every day or you will be deported yourself.

530
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: Yannest core jack Uh, this will be the hardest story

531
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: to tell in the whole thing. You got this. He's

532
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: a pediatrician and a famous children's book author who ran

533
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: one of the orphanages, and he'd been running orphanages for decades,

534
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: which he actually he designed his orphanages as a republic.

535
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: The children had their own parliament and newspaper, and a

536
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: decision making power over their own lives under his care,

537
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: which is a century ahead of its time. As far

538
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: as that's that's pretty incredible. And time and time again,

539
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: both before the invade and even while living in the ghetto,

540
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: people are basically like, hey, you're important. Do you want

541
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: to get out of here? Like, we will get you out,

542
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: we will go through. Even at the beginning it's easy,

543
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: and later it's not easy. You know, people are like,

544
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: I will risk death to get you out right. And

545
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: every single time he's offered safe passage out of Poland

546
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: by the Home Army, by others, he refuses. He's not

547
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: going to leave his children. When the Nazis came for

548
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: the hundred nine years so kids in his care, to

549
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: deport them to trib Linca, which is the death camp

550
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: that uh Warsaw ghetto people had to ended up, a

551
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: lot of them ended up at. He insisted that he

552
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: would join his children. He said, you do not leave

553
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: a sick child in the night, and you do not

554
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: leave children at a time like this. So he gets

555
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: on the train, he goes to trib Linca and he's

556
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: offered once again a stay of execution. And there's two

557
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,479
Speaker 1: stories about this. One is that a guard recognized him

558
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: for his children's books that had meant so much to

559
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,479
Speaker 1: the guards kids and offered to let him go. Another

560
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: is that the Nazis knew he was a prominent Jew,

561
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: and they had this special place that prominent Jews could

562
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: go stay alive in order to convince the world that

563
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: they weren't doing a holocaust. Either way, he refuses, and

564
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: he died so that his children wouldn't have to die alone.

565
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: Um went with them to the guest chambers. Uh sorry

566
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: it yeah, to confirm what they suspected. The Boon sent

567
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: a blonde Jewish socialist a lot of the people who

568
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: are smuggling their way in and out of the ghetto

569
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: where people who could pass his arian And so the

570
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: Boon sends a blond Jewish socialists out of out of

571
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: Warsaw to trace the railway tracks and confirm, yes, the

572
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: deportations are going to Triblinka. But that's not enough. They

573
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: also this this boondist guy. He tracks down a Jew

574
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: who had escaped the camp who confirmed, yes, this is

575
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: a death camp. Those deported would not be coming back.

576
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: So this boondist out of Land of Death smuggles himself

577
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: back into the into warsaw back into the ghetto, crossing

578
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: battle lines and all this ship to report what he's

579
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: seen and heard, and his account was was printed and

580
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: distributed immediately. Then you know, it's the confirmation of what

581
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: they assumed earlier. They're like, we know this is an

582
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: extermination project, but now they like no, no. By September,

583
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: only forty people out of the original five thousand people

584
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: remained in the ghetto. And uh, some of the ship

585
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: that happens Now I understand why people didn't talk about

586
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: it much. There's a lot of um. Only some of

587
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: you get to die, decide amongst yourself, get to live,

588
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: decide amongst yourselves. Yeah. And Bernard Goldstein, he's he's in

589
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: the ghetto, you know, our our hero from last time,

590
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: I've been talking about as much this time. He survives

591
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: as one of the most wanted men in the ghetto,

592
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: and he's passed back and forth like a hot potato

593
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: from comrade to comrade, house to house, hiding hole, the

594
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: hiding hole. Like for an hour he's disguised as a baker,

595
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: and then they're like, fuck, run go into this tiny hole,

596
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, and go into this abandoned house. You once

597
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: helped my brother who was a part of the boons.

598
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: I will come feed you, but if you fall asleep,

599
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: you'll die. Like he he has some fucking time of it,

600
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: avoiding fucking captures like he's fucking wanted, you know, and

601
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: his face is famous. And at one point he's even

602
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: actually hidden and protected by a Jewish cop because at

603
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: this point their boot licking wasn't saving them. There's only

604
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: two left out of the original two thousand. Um, so

605
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: Jewish cops no longer I believe at this point serving

606
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: their previous function. So this is where during episode one,

607
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: when I commented that Comrade Bernard sucked at not getting arrested,

608
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: he said he was saving it up. This is only

609
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: part of it. This is part of it. This man. Yeah,

610
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: the I can't call him a patron saint, can I?

611
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: That just wouldn't work. Um, But if there were, ann

612
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: if there were a patron saint of not getting arrested, Um,

613
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: he's very good at not getting here. Yeah, yeah, we'll

614
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: go with that. That's a better way to phrase it. Um.

615
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: So it was after this is the way I wrote

616
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: it down. It was after this nightmare summer and the

617
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: orgy of death that accompanied the last week or so

618
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: deportation that people in the ghetto really decided, like, we

619
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: are going to fight. It's no longer the radicals. Everyone's like, um.

620
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 1: To quote in our Goldstein, every one of the forty

621
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: thousand who remained alive burned with impatience to come to

622
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: grips with the enemy. They stood at their work in

623
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 1: the ghetto factories. They dragged themselves under heavy guard to

624
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 1: slave labor on the Arean side. Every thought, every hope,

625
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: working in only one direction, towards only one goal, a

626
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: fight to the death. Everyone in the ghetto, whether enrolled

627
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: in the fighting groups or not, thought only about arms

628
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: and weapons. So let's talk about the people who are

629
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: going to fight. There's three major factions in the uprising,

630
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: and in the wake of the uprising, in the war,

631
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: everyone fought over who gets to take credit for the resistance.

632
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 1: It seems really clear to me that all three groups

633
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: get to take credit for the resistance. I mean, I

634
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: have a dog in the fight, right, like I like

635
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: the wound, I like the anti Zionist socialists. Um. But

636
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: it is absolutely one of those moments where you're like,

637
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: everyone is trying to murder us is more important than

638
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: political conflict. Yeah. Sometimes sometimes you gotta put it aside. Yeah.

639
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: Mostly today we know about the ze O B, the

640
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: Jewish combat organization, and no, the z and Zeo B

641
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: does not stand for Zionist, it stands for Zidowska, the

642
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: Polish word for Jewish. We know more about the Zeo

643
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:31,919
Speaker 1: B because some of its members survived and wrote about

644
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: what happened. The Zeo B was started by the Labor Zionists,

645
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: who were left wing Zionists, which as as far as

646
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: I've been able to find, is the greater chunk of

647
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: the Zionist movement before the creation of Israel. And more

648
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: or less Labor Zionists wanted to create a socialist Israel,

649
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: but messier than that, they didn't actually necessarily want to

650
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: create a state of Israel at all, like some of

651
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: them didn't. I believe some of them did, some of

652
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 1: them didn't, as best I can figure. So the Labor

653
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: Zionists start the Zero B and they invite their political enemies,

654
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: the Booned, to join, and the boon doesn't join. At first,

655
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: I've read two different reasons, and I suspect that the

656
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: answer is both. The boon doesn't join because they're politically

657
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 1: opposed to supporting Zionists. And this is before the deportations

658
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,240
Speaker 1: that this organization is getting set up. They're politically opposed

659
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 1: to supporting Zionists, and because they don't want to join,

660
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: because they're they're actually slightly more moderate in their support

661
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: of direct action and violence, and they don't want to

662
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: stir up too much ship really because they're trying to

663
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: get the Home Army on their side. That's their strategy.

664
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: They're trying to make other allies. Yeah, and I've read

665
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,439
Speaker 1: some stuff that's fairly subjective that claims that overall more

666
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: of the Socialists were fighting to win and more of

667
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: the Zionists were fighting to die. In their own terms,

668
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: I can't promise that, and I'm not trying to make

669
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: a blanket statement. That's just something I ran across in

670
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 1: a couple of sources. But those were very subjective sources.

671
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: Those weren't like the account of the person who was

672
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: there or something. Right. Yeah, Well, and and like you said,

673
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 1: people have a lot of motivation to go with one

674
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: one interpretation or the other in this situation. It's not

675
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:14,439
Speaker 1: not super neutral yep, totally. And so after the mass deportations,

676
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: all that ship has forgotten all the differences, all of

677
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: the strategy. How do we successfully have a revolt? People

678
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: are like, we just need to fucking fight, And so

679
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: the Boond joins the zo Bam and after the uprising,

680
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: the Boond, which has most of its supporters in New

681
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: York City, and the Labor Zionist, who are strongest in Palestine,

682
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: spend like the next century or so fighting over who's

683
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: uprising it is. At the very beginning, the Buddhists were

684
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 1: more known to be involved, but soon after the Zionist

685
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: learned that it was their guys who actually started the

686
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: Zeo b uh whatever, They all definitely this is the

687
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 1: most important issue exactly, Like I don't care. Um, I mean,

688
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: I'm also notch groups that weren't there can claim ownership

689
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: of the actions of the people. Yeah, Like whose history

690
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: is it? It's it's Jewish history, you know anyway, so

691
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 1: said the non Jewish person telling podcast. Um, so that's

692
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: the zo be. But then there's they're actually only a

693
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: little over half the fighters registered to formal groups. I've

694
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: seen different spreads. One was like five hundred to fifty,

695
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: one was six four hundred whatever. I mean, the whole

696
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 1: whole fucking ghetto fought, so whatever right that was gonna

697
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: be A question I had is like how many people

698
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: who fought had no political affiliation beyond uh, not getting

699
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: murdered by Nazis or murdering not or you know, killing

700
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 1: Nazis on your way out. So it's like mostly I

701
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: think people were more and more people were joining these

702
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: fighting organizations, these specific militia formations, UM, and we're generally

703
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 1: joining one of the sort of politically aligned ones because

704
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: I think the by and large, my understanding is that

705
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: the political culture in the ghetto was was very like

706
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 1: you have your crew, you know, you're working with these people.

707
00:38:58,400 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: Are these people, and a lot of the mutual aid

708
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: groups are set up by these various crews. But again

709
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: it's like you're talking about a thousand people out of

710
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: forty people, and at least Bernard is like everyone wanted

711
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: to fight, you know, um at this point. So the

712
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: other half there's the zo B, which is made up

713
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: of these two leftist but very different ideas of what

714
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: that means groups. The other half is the ZZW, the

715
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: Jewish Military Union and their right wing Jews and at

716
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: most of whom at the start had been fighting and

717
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: serving in the Polish military. A lot of them smuggled

718
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: themselves into Warsaw the fight because they were otherwise on

719
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: the front lines. And they were revisionist Zionists, which was

720
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: the right wing half of the Zionist movement at the time,

721
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: which meant that they were territorial maximalists, basically believing Israel

722
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,439
Speaker 1: should be a state and should be the only state

723
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: in the area. All right, no, no, okay, quiet disapproving sound, yeah, yeah, no, okay,

724
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: And I mean, yeah, fuck fuck that. Well, it's like

725
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: I will make a louder disapproving sound fuck that. Yeah,

726
00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: I mean, like to oversimplify things dangerously. In nine thirty five,

727
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: the Zionist Executive the like sort of worldwide Hionist organization

728
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: is they refuse to say that the goal of Zionism

729
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 1: was to create the Jewish state. They don't say the

730
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: goal isn't that as far as I can tell, but

731
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: they they're like, they there's a specific Someone's like, I

732
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 1: propose that the whole point is to create Jewish state,

733
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 1: and they're like, no, that is not the point of Zionism. Um,

734
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to This is my best attempt at

735
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 1: a neutral presentation. Of these things. I'm really not trying

736
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: to present a whatever. I don't like the right wing anyway,

737
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 1: okay whatever, I mean, it doesn't have to be neutral.

738
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: I think I think we know where you stand. Yeah, yeah, totally.

739
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,439
Speaker 1: And so so that creates the revision of Zionists, um,

740
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: the revision of science or like oh hell no, we

741
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,959
Speaker 1: want it all is ours and basically the larger chunk

742
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: of Jewish folks at this time see these people as

743
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: the Jewish fascists. And this is why these are two

744
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 1: different political organizations because as much as like we have

745
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 1: bigger enemies than each other, they're still kind of this

746
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: like but they're fascists, you know, Um, they just Jewish fascists.

747
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: At least that was as was seen. Yeah that makes sense.

748
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: I mean if if like there was a like an

749
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: alien invasion or something and we had to team up

750
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: with everybody to to fight off the alien invasion, like

751
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: we would still be like, it's a little gross that

752
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: I'm fighting alongside of you know, some of the people

753
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: who be fighting alongside it. We probably would still do

754
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: it because you know, something bigger was happening. But like, yeah,

755
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: sometimes you do things and feel gross about it. At

756
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 1: the same time, and I mean, honestly a lot of ways.

757
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 1: It reminds me of what's happening in Ukraine right now.

758
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 1: Um about like the fact that there are right wing elements,

759
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: Nazi elements within the Ukrainian defense side, and there's also

760
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 1: far left elements within the Ukrainian defense side. Um, and

761
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 1: they are not That's probably a better example than Aliens.

762
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: The thing that I came up with for some reason,

763
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: no no, but I mean like it and so and

764
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: they're doing what they do in the ghetto is that

765
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: they coordinate on some level, but to not you know,

766
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,879
Speaker 1: to sort of be in the same fight, even though

767
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 1: that they cannot fucking stand each other, right, But you

768
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: know what you can stand, You can stand the concept

769
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: of music. I even like actual individual music, not all

770
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: of it. I like a lot of it, but not

771
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: all of it. Uh, Sophie shows me pop music that

772
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: I like because it's sad pop music. If it's happy

773
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: pop music, I'm not gonna like it unless it's from

774
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: the eighties, in which because it's still in a minor

775
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: key even though it's supposedly happy. You are so goth.

776
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: I can't help it. You really are the goths. Thanks Um,

777
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: I'm wearing a bright blue skirt, but you can't see it.

778
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: I don't know why you would admit that. I mean, no,

779
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: that's that's very it's a it's powerful. I'm I'm glad

780
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: you have that much confidence, even though you're wearing blue

781
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: right now. And you know who else will sell you

782
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: things like products like skirts or Usually when I listened

783
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: to ads on this network, it's usually other podcasts, but

784
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,959
Speaker 1: you know it might be some other stuff. It's these

785
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 1: ads and sponsors. Hooray, and we are back and we

786
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: are talking about the fact that the far right participated

787
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: in the worst I'm kind of uprising too, and people

788
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: don't like talk about it because it's very politically inconvenient,

789
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: but it makes the story complete and therefore allows you

790
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 1: to actually understand what happened and therefore for all conclusions. Um,

791
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: I mean it's not complete, right, I'm not telling the

792
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: complete stories is the best that I can research, but whatever. So,

793
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: the ZZW has its roots in the military, and they

794
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: have more connection to the Home Army, and they received

795
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: the lion share of the guns and the training. But

796
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,280
Speaker 1: they were actually written out of most of the early histories,

797
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: and they were written out for two reasons. First because

798
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: most people don't want to admit that the right wing

799
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 1: Jews have done a lot to Poland became communist after

800
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: World War Two, and in particular, they did not want

801
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,439
Speaker 1: to talk about any right wingers that didn't think good.

802
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 1: Not that I whenever, I don't care um. Secondly, because

803
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: almost every single one of them died. Uh. There was

804
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: only one of their leaders who survived the war, and

805
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: his memoirs weren't published until the nineteen sixties. And I

806
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: really hate to say I like a right wing guys

807
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 1: book title, but the title is and we Are Not Saved,

808
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: which is just an objectively good book title. That is

809
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 1: this good book title. And to make things messier when

810
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: they did write themselves into history, finally they lied. No

811
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: way the fascist lie be shocked to know this. There's

812
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 1: this guy named David Appelbaum who was supposedly one of

813
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: their great leaders. He probably never existed like modern like

814
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: more recent research, just like, yeah, we did a lot

815
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: of looking into this guy that you all keep talking about,

816
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 1: and there's no record of him. No. That's awesome though.

817
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: That's so much better than like just making up stories

818
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: about somebody real is to just like completely invent a

819
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: cool guy out a whole CLIs. It's like, yeah, all right.

820
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 1: And so the other thing that they did that they're

821
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 1: probably lying about is that there's this whole mythology in

822
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: it where the ZZW in the Home Army had two

823
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: matching gold rings with Jewish symbols on them, and that

824
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: when the two would meet up to discuss things, the

825
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: Home Army person the Polish person and the and the

826
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: jew This already sounds so they would they would have

827
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: their matching rings to show that they were who they

828
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: said they were. But that's not enough because what if

829
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 1: they captured the rings. They also have to describe the

830
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: meanings of all the different symbols on the ring, and

831
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: these rings probably never existed. Um, the one remaining one

832
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: of these rings is probably a forgery. But you can

833
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: tell you're proud of your history when you make it

834
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: up and forge artifacts. Well, what's funnier too, though, it

835
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: wasn't the right wing Jews who made this up. I

836
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: think they might have made up the David person, but

837
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it was Wait who made up the rings? Okay,

838
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 1: was it Tolken? You know? Right now? Is this Polish

839
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: Home Army guy named henryk Owanski Evanski who he probably

840
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: did a bunch of really brave ship in support of

841
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, but he like made his fucking

842
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: name as like I am the fucking Polish hero of

843
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 1: the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Wait, so you're saying that it

844
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: was a Christian who made up the story about the

845
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 1: Jewish symbols, that you have to see I knew it,

846
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 1: because that doesn't that story doesn't work if it's Jews,

847
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: because unless you have like a predefined like these are

848
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 1: just the passwords you have to recite, it's like, oh,

849
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: what does this symbol mean. It's like, well, let me

850
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: tell you what this symbol means. It's like, that's not

851
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: what this symbol means. It's like, it is what this

852
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: symbol means. And then you have like an twelve way

853
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: argument about it, and like that's how you discuss what

854
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: symbols and the idea that like, no, the symbol it

855
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: means one thing. That's the idea that is a Christian

856
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: making up a story about some fake ass Jewish rings.

857
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: And they completely gave themselves away with the idea that

858
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: you could just agree on symbols that tracks. Another thing

859
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: that he made up was that he he talked about

860
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: how his own son died in defense of the ghetto

861
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: under his command. He never had any son have a son.

862
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 1: I know it fun this guy everything in history, like

863
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: how I agree yet happy? That made Miriam. Well, I'm

864
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: mad about it, but I was ready to be mad

865
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: about it, So I'm glad it turned out I was

866
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: right to be mad. Your feelings are valid, they're confusing.

867
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: I'm delayed. So after the deportations, people in the ghetto

868
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: are getting ready to fight, Bernard Goldstein gets himself smuggled

869
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: out of the ghetto. Rate expense and difficulty. Some some

870
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: airport workers, like Jewish workers who have to go to

871
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 1: work at the airport every year. Every day they come

872
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: and go from the ghetto every day or not actually

873
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: every day. They come back for like one day every

874
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: two weeks or something like that. And when they're leaving

875
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: the ghetto again, he's added to one such group. There's

876
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 1: a problem. He's old as fuck, and well he's actually

877
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: not that old, these in his fifties, but he looks

878
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: old as fuck because he has been having a hard

879
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: time and he had to grow. He's been having a

880
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: hard time since he was sixty and he grew this

881
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: like huge beard in order to disguise his his famous face. Um,

882
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: but that is not the look of a young Jewish worker.

883
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: And he's like sick, and I think he's walking with

884
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 1: a cane at this point. He'll be walking with a

885
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 1: cane shortly there after either either way. So while he's

886
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: like walking through, everything's fine, everything's fine. But then they're

887
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: like the people who are supposed to meet them are late,

888
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 1: and so they're waiting there, and then the Gestapo come

889
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: up and start checking names, and someone has to come

890
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: over and bribe the ship out of the Gestapo, and

891
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: he gets out, uh, And he moves in with members

892
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 1: of the Democratic underground, like some Polish Polish family who

893
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 1: would get shot if they were caught hosting him, and

894
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: they're on the outside. People work to get arms into

895
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 1: the guy. He's not the only one doing this, but

896
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: he's the person who's story I'm I'm tracking, you know.

897
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: So he gets out, but like out of the ghetto,

898
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: not out of roland. He's he's still there and still organizing.

899
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 1: He gets out to be where he is most useful,

900
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: which is acquiring guns and working to build this revolt

901
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:36,879
Speaker 1: on the outside, and so this isn't easy to get

902
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 1: guns in this current situation, people both Jewish and Christian

903
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 1: are getting caught with stashes of firearms to smuggle into

904
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 1: the ghetto and are getting shot like so like they'll

905
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: they'll get a bunch of guns together before they can

906
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: smuggle them over they all die. And well, most of

907
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: the world is silent to the treatment of Jews right,

908
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: and huge swaths of the Polish population was basically like, oh,

909
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 1: thank god, we hated these Jews too. The there was

910
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 1: also a ton of support from the polls. The government

911
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,839
Speaker 1: and exile of Poland actually set up the Council for

912
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 1: Aid to Jews or Zagoda, which is also the name

913
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: of a badass band from a couple of decades ago

914
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: and which I didn't know the connection until I read this.

915
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: I was like, that band was extra cool. And almost

916
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: all the Polish parties are represented on on this council

917
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: and it works to supply Jews with documents and apartments

918
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 1: and raise money and get weapons. They're not doing as

919
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: much as they could, but you know they're doing something.

920
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: The zo B buys guns everywhere they can. They buy

921
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: stolen guns from army depots they buy guns off of

922
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: German soldiers they buy guns from Imagine that. Imagine me

923
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: a German soldier and someone comes up being like, you're

924
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: gonna buy that gun? I want to kill your friend.

925
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 1: It's like, well, on the one hand, um, I'm not

926
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 1: supposed to do that, and I don't particularly want you

927
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: to shoot my friend. On the other hand, I would

928
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: like to get drunk tonight. So yeah, I assume that's

929
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: how that went down. Kind of assumed too, even though

930
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: it sounds bag, you know, as I know that, like

931
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: making sure soldiers don't sell their guns is like a

932
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 1: huge part of like military history. And this is this

933
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 1: is like a side note, but in um earlier, in

934
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 1: earlier military history, when like guns had a piece of

935
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: flint in them that made them fire, a major thing

936
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: that armies had to do was make sure the soldiers

937
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: weren't selling the flints. Because it's kind of obvious if

938
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: you sell your gun, but if you just sell the flint,

939
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: like people buy flint, they need flint, and then you

940
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 1: just replace it with a sharp Now you just take

941
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 1: a sharp pebble in there, and then your gun just

942
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't fire. But what do you give a funk. You're

943
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: in a line of fifty guys shooting in a line

944
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: of another fifty guys. It doesn't matter if your gun

945
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: fires or not, like that doesn't affect you as an individual.

946
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 1: So that why the hell wouldn't you sell your flint

947
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 1: for booze money? So they would like actually have to

948
00:51:56,040 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: go and inspect and check everybody's that's amazing. So they

949
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 1: buy guns from Poles who work in arms factories, and

950
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 1: all the wild people are being arrested by the Nazis.

951
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 1: Several prominent socialist, Polish and Bundhist leaders are executed by

952
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 1: the Soviets, of course, which sucks up morale. And and

953
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 1: this is when the Soviets are ostensibly enemies with our enemies.

954
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 1: I can't say ostensibly I will I will give so

955
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: Union credit for one thing. Um you do not under

956
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: any circumstances have to hand it. But but anyway, on

957
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: January eighteenth three, the fighting groups go into action for

958
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 1: the first time. They were caught off guard a surprise

959
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: German invasion and deportation drive into the ghetto, and most

960
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 1: of the fighters weren't able to respond in time. Four

961
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: different units within the different fighting groups fought back I'm

962
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 1: under the impression it was mostly the zd W, the

963
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 1: right wing, but I am not certain about that. They

964
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:52,839
Speaker 1: fought back, They fired on the Nazis, they threw hand

965
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,240
Speaker 1: grenades and ship They killed about twenty Nazis and these actions,

966
00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:00,320
Speaker 1: probably at least for the day, saved about three thousand people.

967
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 1: The Germans managed to steal five thousand people out of

968
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 1: the eight thousand that they had planned, and this had

969
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: other effects. The Nazis were fucking shocked. The Polish resistance,

970
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: Jewish and Gentile was fucking stoked. The Home Army immediately

971
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: smuggles in fifty revolvers, fifty grenades and some explosives. Again,

972
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: he could do better, but you know, um morale rises

973
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 1: in the ghetto. German soldiers stopped feeling safe to walk

974
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 1: around the ghetto alone, and the fighters immediately they're like, okay,

975
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: this place is ours now. They turned their eye on

976
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: the Gestapo informants who were tracked down and shot. One

977
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 1: was even shot outside the ghetto. He had like he

978
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 1: gets shot in the ghetto, but he managed to get

979
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: out right and then he's like walking out of a

980
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: restaurant outside the ghetto and warsaw and someone no one

981
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 1: knows who walks up and shoots him. Ah, I have

982
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 1: a theory. That theory is named Bernard with a gun

983
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 1: in his cane. I have no it in to support this.

984
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 1: We have to be but I believe you. Yeah, because

985
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 1: he writes about him like, oh I got shot. It's

986
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 1: a very passive voice, but I think he probably would

987
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 1: have been like, yo, I fucking shot that guy. I

988
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know he does. Yeah. I mean

989
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: maybe he just was trying not to brag. You know.

990
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 1: He's like working on his autobiography and he's like, well,

991
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: if I tell them everything I did, it's going to

992
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: sound a little bragging. So we'll just say that this

993
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: guy was shot. He actually really does play down his

994
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: own like work. It like doesn't his bio autobiography doesn't

995
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 1: even talk much about the work he did. It talks

996
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 1: about what he saw and what he survived and like

997
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 1: what happened, and you know, his own like escapes and

998
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: ship like that. But even most of the cool biographical

999
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,400
Speaker 1: stuff was biographical sketches that other people wrote. In the

1000
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: introduction to his book, oh wow. Yeah, see he's humble.

1001
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: That's why he didn't tell you that he Yeah, exactly

1002
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: exactly now we all have learned classic comrade, you know,

1003
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 1: oh Bernie. Uh So the jude and rout was now

1004
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 1: completely ignored by the residents of the ghetto. They're like,

1005
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: you're not in charge. The fighting groups are in charge,

1006
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 1: and everyone looks the underground organizations for leadership. Some houses

1007
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 1: are turned into barracks. They're full of fighters on guard,

1008
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 1: so they're not going to get caught off guard. Like

1009
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: last time. Thousands of leaders of benzine Or smuggled into

1010
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 1: the ghetto and an entire factory like is created like

1011
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 1: Or shifts production to making explosive bottles, which are like

1012
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 1: super fancy Molotovs with detonators. And later, like twenty years later,

1013
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 1: someone unearthed this factory and finds a hundred thousand explosive

1014
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:42,279
Speaker 1: detonators that they had made, and their explosives expert was

1015
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 1: an Arian passing Jewish Bundis chemical engineer named Michael Klepfish

1016
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 1: who had been on a train to Trablinka and had

1017
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: pulled the bars out of the window of the train

1018
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: and escaped and smuggled himself back into Warsaw, first to

1019
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: the outside, working on the outside, and then back into

1020
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 1: the ghetto to be at. This guy did not pick safety,

1021
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 1: you know, And as as quoted by by Bernard uh

1022
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 1: he was alive pretty much for it. Okay, it's not

1023
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 1: the start of the quote, but he was alive pretty

1024
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 1: much for the desire of revenge. Quote. My father and

1025
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: mother have already been burned. My sister is buried in

1026
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: a Christian cemetery, my child is in a foundling home,

1027
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 1: my wife is a servant in a gentile home. All

1028
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 1: I want now is to be consumed in the battle

1029
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 1: for vengeance. And I think that kind of sums up

1030
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 1: the attitude in the ghetto at this point, especially of

1031
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: the people who are like literally going into it, you know, yeah,

1032
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: to to go into the ghetto at that point, well, okay,

1033
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: I'll get to that. Tens of thousands of people spend

1034
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 1: months building bunkers overseen by Jewish engineers, like, you know,

1035
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: because there's engineers there, because there's every people of all

1036
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:52,919
Speaker 1: walks of life there. Some bunkers were double walled safe rooms,

1037
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,399
Speaker 1: hidden behind wardrobes, or you might just like crawl through

1038
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 1: an oven past all the pots and pans to reach

1039
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 1: into the bunker. Some more sellers built underneath sellers tunnels

1040
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 1: were built between courtyards. Friend of the pod tunnels passages

1041
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 1: between addicts. Tunnels were dug out to the areaan side

1042
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 1: or into the sewer city system, which weren't like the

1043
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 1: big happy tunnels. Like a lot of the media talks

1044
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: about how they get out through sewers at the end,

1045
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 1: and there's two things I think they are worth noting

1046
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: about that. One is that these sewers are not like

1047
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 1: big happy like um, teenage mutant ninja turtle things where

1048
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 1: you can like walk around in the sewage is like

1049
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: a little trickle at the bottom. Thank you. I was

1050
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 1: gonna like reaching for a reference for what sewers look like.

1051
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: I was going to say The Third Man, but I

1052
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: think the teenage muting ninja turtles is probably a more

1053
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: like you'll actually know what that was like. Yeah, I

1054
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 1: don't know the Third Man. Oh it rules. It's great movie.

1055
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: The sewers for big happy sewers nerds. Yeah, Yeah, there's

1056
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:55,960
Speaker 1: huge sewers, like really spacious sewers in that movie. Not

1057
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 1: in Warsaw, or at least the parts that they have

1058
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: to escape through. Um, they're like eight inches tall the

1059
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: pipes that they're crawling through, and like an awful lot

1060
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: of people, like uncountable people died lost crawling through ship. Um.

1061
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 1: And also the other thing worth knowing is that it

1062
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 1: wasn't just like, oh, pop open the manhole. They did this.

1063
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 1: They dug the tunnels to the sewers. They they were

1064
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 1: the people who saved themselves, you know. Yeah. And as

1065
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 1: for the question of like why didn't everyone just smuggle

1066
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: themselves out of the ghetto at this point, since there's

1067
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 1: some ways to get out sort of during this period,

1068
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 1: many Jews heading outside the ghetto actually smuggled themselves back

1069
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 1: into the ghetto, not just to get into the fight,

1070
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 1: although a lot of people did that, but because life

1071
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 1: outside the ghetto meant hiding and being blackmailed, and the

1072
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: life expectancy was like not fucking good. Yeah, there's there

1073
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 1: was no fucking safety for Jews in Poland. And also

1074
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: here it's like we're talking about these people who built

1075
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: bunkers and the people who hid themselves, not just the

1076
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 1: people who fought, are like fucking heroes. And um, I

1077
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 1: don't know all that it, right, I guess I've I've

1078
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: hit this point numerous times, but yeah, but you know,

1079
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: it bears repeating that, like there are multiple ways to resist.

1080
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: So the Germans know what's happening. They know that they've

1081
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 1: lost control of the ghetto, and they're like they switched strategies,

1082
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 1: and they try to play nice. They're like, hey, come

1083
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 1: on out of the ghetto. We'll take you somewhere nice.

1084
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: It's totally not a death camp this time. It's like

1085
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 1: we learned our lesson. No more death camps come to

1086
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: work for us, and everyone ignored them this time. Yeah,

1087
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: I would hope. So when when Germans tried to move

1088
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 1: the factories out of the ghetto, the workers set everything

1089
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 1: on fire. Ah, fucking good strategy. Fire solves a lot

1090
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 1: of problems. Sometimes both sides us are very effectively. But

1091
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 1: and so the Germans back off and they wait, preparing

1092
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: for a single great confrontation the people and the ghetto.

1093
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 1: They are waiting for the exact same thing. Two am

1094
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 1: on April Sunday, Nazis and Polish, not the collaborators, which

1095
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 1: is to say, Nazis and other Nazis surround the entire

1096
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 1: ghetto outside the wall and it's the first day to

1097
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 1: pass over. Miriam. Let's passover. About passover is about resistance

1098
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:21,240
Speaker 1: to oppression, and you know, and some other stuff and

1099
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 1: a giant frog. Yeah, yeah, we'll talk about the So

1100
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 1: at five am, the gates are barred. At six o'clock,

1101
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 1: the Nazis move in, armored cars, machine guns, tanks, the

1102
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 1: whole fucking deal. Resistors wait until the front of the

1103
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 1: column has gone past, and then they just opened fire

1104
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 1: from the buildings. They rained down fire and bullets. Germans died,

1105
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 1: Jews didn't. Some Nazis burned to death in their tanks,

1106
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 1: and the German army retreats from the ghetto. April Hitler's birthday,

1107
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 1: the Nazis cut off electricity and water. They then invade

1108
01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 1: the ghetto again. This time they take it more serious.

1109
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 1: They don't march in in a column. They send in squads,

1110
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 1: moving under cover, firing into every window and alley, basically

1111
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: like how you should take a city. And they're met

1112
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 1: with dynamite, molotovs and hand grenades. As they do this.

1113
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 1: At one point three d Nazis get exploded from a

1114
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 1: landmine buried under the street. There's a decent Yeah, there's

1115
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:23,800
Speaker 1: a lot of different death counts. Everyone has a real

1116
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 1: different death counts. I don't I'm not even gonna offer

1117
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: a death count. Um but the Nazis set fire to buildings.

1118
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,919
Speaker 1: Fighters run from building to building from the passages they'd

1119
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 1: carefully built over the courses of month. So they said,

1120
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 1: fired to a building, you just run into the next one.

1121
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 1: The fighting moves inside Florida floor roomed a room. Michael Kleppfish,

1122
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 1: the explosives engineer who built that factory and smuggled himself

1123
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 1: back in the ghetto. He he throws himself at a

1124
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 1: German machine gun to cover their treat of the unit

1125
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 1: that he led, and dies. And even those who hadn't

1126
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 1: enrolled formally in the fighting organizations joined the fight, whether

1127
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 1: as couriers or fighters. Fighters disguised themselves and stolen Nazi

1128
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 1: uniforms to ambush the enemy. Nazis were terrified the resistance

1129
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 1: would spread to the Polish population, and they evacuate everyone

1130
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 1: who's close enough to see the fighting, like anyone who

1131
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 1: can see into the ghetto from their buildings get evacuated.

1132
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 1: But the rest of Warsaw wouldn't resist until about a

1133
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 1: year later, in a fight that we won't get into

1134
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 1: much now, which of course, the Jews also fought in.

1135
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 1: Even though during the Ghetto uprising, the boned calls for

1136
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 1: sympathy strikes from the non Jewish polls, even the generally

1137
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 1: reliable socialists, and nothing happens met with silence. Artillery rained

1138
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: down onto the ghetto, huge swaths of it burned, while

1139
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:41,040
Speaker 1: people hid in bunkers are fled through tunnels, and the

1140
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 1: fighting lasted for weeks. On May one, mayde A, the

1141
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 1: ghetto fighters undertook a one day offensive offensive gets put

1142
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: in quotes um in Bernard's retellion of this, because they're defeated, right, um,

1143
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 1: but they're holding on and they're like, fuck it, let's

1144
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 1: let's go on the office, let's go on the fence

1145
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:05,479
Speaker 1: May day and uh, you know it doesn't go well,

1146
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 1: but it was worth doing. And that evening, to quote

1147
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 1: Bernard again, they quote held a roll call of their

1148
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:17,360
Speaker 1: decimated ranks and saying the International Polish Socialist sewer workers

1149
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 1: together with professional smugglers, they helped map away out through

1150
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 1: the sewers. Some fighters actually finally did escape. They spent

1151
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:26,920
Speaker 1: two days in twenty inch tunnels with water up to

1152
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 1: their lips. The Polish Underground was supposed to meet them

1153
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 1: to guard their exit, but the Home Army never showed.

1154
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 1: So these emaciated fighters are covered and ship and they

1155
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 1: hold submachine guns to hold back the crowd as they

1156
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: evacuated themselves out to the forest and there to continue

1157
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 1: the fight. And over the next while the ghetto was

1158
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 1: entirely destroyed, Polish volunteers did demolition work in exchange for

1159
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 1: the right to steal valuables, and in the end the

1160
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 1: whole place was raised like three stories down below the ground.

1161
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 1: Bernard Goldstein didn't fight in the uprise, and he worked

1162
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:03,440
Speaker 1: outside in the Arian area and was racked with guilt.

1163
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 1: He got weapons and helped plant things, but he also

1164
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 1: just tried to help him just tried to survive, and

1165
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 1: he was driven from home to home, wandering the streets homeless,

1166
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 1: trying to organize to help twenty thousand or so Jews

1167
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:18,960
Speaker 1: who were scattered around the area and hiding in the

1168
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 1: city and countryside after the after the ghetto was destroyed,

1169
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 1: the boond itself was responsible for about three thousand of

1170
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 1: these people, finding them documentation and shelter and food and

1171
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 1: all of that. And I suspect that the three thousand

1172
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 1: people that he helped support. We're glad that Bernard did

1173
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 1: what he did best, which was organizing network instead of

1174
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 1: fighting and dying in the uprising. Um. Yeah, so they

1175
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 1: stayed hidden as best as they could, They organized as

1176
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 1: best as they could, just fucking hard for them to

1177
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 1: do the organizing, it was incredibly risky. They'd have people

1178
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:53,800
Speaker 1: over to their very secret apartments that were like, you know,

1179
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 1: hidden even from the four year old in the room

1180
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:58,360
Speaker 1: next door, and shipp you know, right, I mean, the

1181
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 1: they are not sup was to be like in the

1182
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 1: country at all at this point, much less much less

1183
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 1: trying to organize. And they're still trying to fucking do it.

1184
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 1: And they organized best that they can for a year

1185
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 1: until as the Allies draw near and the Soviets bombed

1186
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 1: the city, which is not inherently bad. But the Poles

1187
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 1: get to go hide in shelters, right, and they're like cheering,

1188
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 1: They're like fun, Yeah, the Soviets are bombing our city,

1189
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:25,280
Speaker 1: but they're glad and for good reasons. Um. But the

1190
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 1: Jews can't, right, they can't leave their hiding places to

1191
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:32,840
Speaker 1: go hide in shelters. And the Polish underground prepared to

1192
01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:36,600
Speaker 1: rise up and retake Warsaw. The Jews couldn't really aid

1193
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 1: in the planning. Um, they could show their faces until

1194
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 1: August one, when Warsaw rose up, which is also cool.

1195
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 1: People did cool stuff. Picking out the Nazis out of

1196
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:50,480
Speaker 1: your city is fucking cool. Always. Yeah, the Jews came

1197
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 1: out from hiding and women and men joined in the fight,

1198
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 1: even though they were often treated like ship by the

1199
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 1: people that they were fighting on the same side as.

1200
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 1: But one cool thing about the Warsaw sing uprising. Not

1201
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:03,320
Speaker 1: the worse I'll get uprising, but this one is that

1202
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 1: Girl Scout troops through molotovs at tanks. Got that fucking rules. Um.

1203
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 1: You can see interviews with the Girl Scout leader who's like, oh, yeah,

1204
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 1: that's what we did. It's a perfect girl Scout activity.

1205
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:19,919
Speaker 1: You've got like the crafting at the beginning. Then you've

1206
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 1: got the like athletic, like competitive portion with the throwing.

1207
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,440
Speaker 1: It's like at least two Merit badges right there. I

1208
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:32,360
Speaker 1: think so like that we worked in a Merritt bad

1209
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:41,800
Speaker 1: reference into this. That's so cool. It's teamwork. It's it's lovely. Yeah,

1210
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 1: totally absolutely. Um So that the Soviet Union takes control

1211
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 1: of Poland and once again Comrade Bernard has a death

1212
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 1: sentence from the Communist put on his head. He's just

1213
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 1: collecting them at this he is, and because he was

1214
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:58,919
Speaker 1: part of a socialist group that wasn't Bolshevik. So that's

1215
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 1: that's a that's a kill I ever heard one. He

1216
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 1: made up his mind to flee to the US. Before

1217
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 1: he left, he went to visit the remains of the

1218
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:09,160
Speaker 1: ghetto one last time, and he describes the experience quoted.

1219
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:13,520
Speaker 1: My entire life had been part of the lively, rushing

1220
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:16,200
Speaker 1: stream that had poured through these streets and alleys. I

1221
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 1: had known every corner, every house, every cobble stone. Now

1222
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:21,680
Speaker 1: all was dust. I could not even tell where the

1223
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:24,480
Speaker 1: streets had been. One patch of rubble was exactly like

1224
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 1: the next. I felt a deep and bitter sorrow. The

1225
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: blue sky and bright spring day mocked me. I felt

1226
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:34,240
Speaker 1: the lonely emptiness of a disembodied spirit who wanders aimlessly

1227
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 1: over the deserted ruins after the cataclysm, who had cheated

1228
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:41,440
Speaker 1: the Nazis, those who rotted beneath broken stones, or were

1229
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 1: ashes and some charnel pit or I sentenced to live

1230
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 1: out my days and nights with the tortured memories of

1231
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 1: what had been. This was the end. This was the

1232
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 1: sum total of hundreds of generations of living and building,

1233
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 1: of religion of Torah, of piety, a free thinking, of Zionism,

1234
01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:00,919
Speaker 1: of bud buds, of struggles and battle of the hopes

1235
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:05,439
Speaker 1: of an entire people. This this empty desert, I looked

1236
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 1: around me at what had been the Jews of Warsaw.

1237
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 1: I felt one hope, and I feel it now. May

1238
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 1: the sea of emptiness bubble and boil. May it cry

1239
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 1: out eternal condemnation of the murderers and pillagers. May it

1240
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:21,599
Speaker 1: forever be the shame of the civilized world which saw

1241
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 1: and heard and chose to remain silent. With the help

1242
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:28,479
Speaker 1: of a go ahead, Oh, I was just I was

1243
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:34,559
Speaker 1: doing real, real good on the not crying thing. Yeah. Before,

1244
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 1: dear listener, before Miriam and I decided to do this

1245
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:41,799
Speaker 1: podcast episode together, it was a little bit not totally collaborative,

1246
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:43,240
Speaker 1: was a little bit more collaborative than a lot of

1247
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:45,840
Speaker 1: our episodes, and we talked about what it would mean

1248
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 1: to do an episode where the tone might might take

1249
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 1: some shifts from the usual slightly more upbeat. So with

1250
01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:58,679
Speaker 1: the help of a sympathetic Soviet officer and a Jewish

1251
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 1: American officer, there's a there's a Soviet we can be

1252
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 1: sympathetic too, right there, you go. Ye. Uh so, now

1253
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:11,680
Speaker 1: any any tankis listening, can't complain? Yeah, exactly, be like

1254
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 1: the one good one and help the people that have

1255
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:19,799
Speaker 1: a death sentence escape. Yeah, there you go, easy roadmap,

1256
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 1: easy roadmap to us liking. Yeah, state communism, state communist communist. Yeah,

1257
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:30,040
Speaker 1: let's be real. And the Jewish American officer, the two

1258
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 1: of them not together, but at different times in his journey,

1259
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 1: they help Commrad Bernard smuggle himself one last time, this

1260
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 1: time to the U S where he wrote his memoir.

1261
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 1: And that's pretty much where we're gonna leave it today. Originally,

1262
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 1: this episode was going to be more broadly about Jewish

1263
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 1: Partisans and Jewish resistance to the Nazis in general, but um,

1264
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 1: I think I'll have to do more about that later.

1265
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:52,320
Speaker 1: Like the Bielski Partisans, which is a group of more

1266
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:54,000
Speaker 1: than a thousand people who lived in the forest in

1267
01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:57,040
Speaker 1: Poland or the other ghetto uprisings, there was like a

1268
01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 1: hundred of them, the Warsaw is the largest. Some were

1269
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:03,120
Speaker 1: even led by survivors from the combat units in Warsaw.

1270
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 1: They would like go to other towns and basically be like, yeah,

1271
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,720
Speaker 1: this is what we did. I got some guns, you know,

1272
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 1: and a decent number of the fighters escaped, each uprising

1273
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:17,680
Speaker 1: off into the forest to continue the fight. And it's

1274
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:21,599
Speaker 1: still accidentally privileging armed resistance too, right because before they

1275
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 1: really know what's going on, resistance meant teaching children so

1276
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:26,519
Speaker 1: that after the war they could re enter society educated

1277
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 1: or uh, once was clear what was happening, Archivists who

1278
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:34,720
Speaker 1: really I want to learn more about buried everything that

1279
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:37,959
Speaker 1: they could so that culture would survive. And for decades

1280
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:42,559
Speaker 1: people were on burying these time capsules of Jewish history

1281
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:47,680
Speaker 1: and culture that was as important as anything else that

1282
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 1: anyone has ever done in the history of a fucking planet.

1283
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 1: It's really hard to like not privilege certain types of

1284
01:10:57,360 --> 01:11:02,519
Speaker 1: resistance narratively, just because some forms of resistance fit narrative

1285
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:05,600
Speaker 1: forms and like better than others and like make for

1286
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 1: cool and exciting stories. But you know, like we keep

1287
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:14,719
Speaker 1: saying that, that doesn't make them the only valid forms

1288
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:17,640
Speaker 1: of resistance, or or even the most valid forms of resistance,

1289
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 1: just the ones that it's kind of easiest to talk about,

1290
01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 1: although I don't know if easy to talk about is

1291
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:33,400
Speaker 1: like necessarily something that this topic, but um, yeah, yeah,

1292
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:37,400
Speaker 1: and you know, in the again, like I I told

1293
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:39,679
Speaker 1: most of the story from the position of this particular

1294
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:44,120
Speaker 1: character and this particular political orientation, which isn't actually my

1295
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:45,840
Speaker 1: political orientation. When I say it's the one the most

1296
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:50,000
Speaker 1: empathetic too, it's like you know, um, but but I

1297
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:53,479
Speaker 1: think one of my main takeaways researching all of this

1298
01:11:53,640 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 1: was really, how um, how much anti fascism um crosses

1299
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:07,280
Speaker 1: uh political lines or should you know, um, you can't

1300
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 1: let people do ship like this whatever whatever you think

1301
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:15,760
Speaker 1: like society should look like. I got one answer, which

1302
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:20,000
Speaker 1: is not that that is not what society should look like. Yeah,

1303
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 1: and like so so stop it, listener, stop it, make

1304
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:30,600
Speaker 1: that not happen. Yeah, I mean, if there is to

1305
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:33,960
Speaker 1: be one takeaway, it does seem like it should be, um,

1306
01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 1: resist fascism early and often, yeah and through and go ahead,

1307
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:42,679
Speaker 1: sorry whatever, yeah, and with with whatever and whoever, we'll

1308
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 1: we'll stand with you and then watch your back if

1309
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:55,559
Speaker 1: you win, because state communists will come back. Yeah. History

1310
01:12:55,560 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 1: teaches us that the other thing of history is like

1311
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 1: really like you know, I spent a lot of my

1312
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:04,080
Speaker 1: time talking should on bunker mentality and preparation, you know,

1313
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 1: like preparedness culture. People like want to get their like

1314
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:08,400
Speaker 1: bunker full of guns and hole up and like fight

1315
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:11,799
Speaker 1: their neighbors or whatever. Fucking nonsense and fill a bunker

1316
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:14,800
Speaker 1: with m R. E s and yeah and guns. I'll

1317
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:19,120
Speaker 1: be real. Like reading about World War two, I'm like, man,

1318
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:23,360
Speaker 1: you know what everyone should do. Build safe places to

1319
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:28,519
Speaker 1: hide people. It's never a bad thing to have. Yeah,

1320
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:31,599
Speaker 1: it's just think of it as your bonus closet, you know,

1321
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 1: or bonus really you can like you can store stuff

1322
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:41,280
Speaker 1: in there and then if at any point, um, people

1323
01:13:41,320 --> 01:13:44,920
Speaker 1: need to hide there, it's there, and like very important,

1324
01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:48,000
Speaker 1: don't talk about it. That's why I'm not playing it.

1325
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:50,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm not. I live in a rental like

1326
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 1: but um, you know, uh, we live in a culture

1327
01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:00,960
Speaker 1: that is is very excited about having will talk about

1328
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:04,040
Speaker 1: anything they do that could be construed remotely as a

1329
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:08,680
Speaker 1: form of activism or praiseworthy in any way. You gotta like,

1330
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:10,960
Speaker 1: if you don't tell people about it doesn't count. And

1331
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 1: like this is something where if you tell people about it,

1332
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:19,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't count, like secret or does not count, which

1333
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:22,120
Speaker 1: by the way, goes for any other laws you might

1334
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:27,080
Speaker 1: be thinking of breaking in the future. Um, no need

1335
01:14:27,280 --> 01:14:33,200
Speaker 1: to talk publicly about how you feel about whether you

1336
01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:36,160
Speaker 1: would help somebody to break a law related to their

1337
01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:38,720
Speaker 1: health care, for example. And you're not fooling anybody by

1338
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:43,519
Speaker 1: talking about camping trips. That's not super relevant. But this

1339
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:46,519
Speaker 1: feels like something I say is always better to be

1340
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:51,840
Speaker 1: a secret badass where you know you're a secret badass. Absolutely,

1341
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 1: you know what's you know what doesn't help when when

1342
01:14:56,840 --> 01:15:02,639
Speaker 1: fighting down, when fighting when facing down fascism flout, Okay,

1343
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:07,800
Speaker 1: your cloud will not save you, except as a counterpoint.

1344
01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:11,200
Speaker 1: That's what Bernard used. But I guess it's okay, But

1345
01:15:11,240 --> 01:15:19,800
Speaker 1: that wasn't organizing Organizing than sasty to charisma. Organizing is

1346
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 1: even more important than anything else you can do, and

1347
01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:24,320
Speaker 1: that you can do publicly, at least some aspects of it,

1348
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:27,920
Speaker 1: and should do publicly because people should know that becoming

1349
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:32,439
Speaker 1: organized as a possibility. Uh. And before you ask, I

1350
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:34,680
Speaker 1: don't immediately now have any solutions for people because I'm

1351
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 1: a podcast or not an organizer because I quit organizing.

1352
01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:42,840
Speaker 1: Because anyway, so that's our episode. Any any plugs at

1353
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:47,879
Speaker 1: the end here, Miriam, Um, Well, not not for me personally,

1354
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:51,360
Speaker 1: because I don't really want to talk to anyone or

1355
01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:55,240
Speaker 1: have them talk to me. But I would like it.

1356
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:58,400
Speaker 1: If people would find the I Fact Fund on Twitter,

1357
01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:03,800
Speaker 1: that's at I A k f U N d UM.

1358
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:06,960
Speaker 1: And what the I I Fact Fund does is they

1359
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:09,400
Speaker 1: take your money and they turned it into individual first

1360
01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:12,639
Speaker 1: aid kits and they put those into people's hands so

1361
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:15,479
Speaker 1: that people can help each other when people need help

1362
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:22,960
Speaker 1: mutual aid. They have a cash app you can donate to,

1363
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 1: which is I Believe Dollar sign I Fact Fund. I

1364
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:30,360
Speaker 1: don't know how cash app works. I'm not on cash app,

1365
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:39,720
Speaker 1: but yeah, give them some money. Yeah, and organize effectively

1366
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 1: and within your community and other like minded people. Yeah.

1367
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 1: I mean this is a history podcast, has nothing to

1368
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:55,040
Speaker 1: do about the present. Yeah. No, I mean obviously, historically

1369
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 1: it is good when people organize within their communities with

1370
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:02,599
Speaker 1: like minded people. So if you where can people find

1371
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:06,519
Speaker 1: you on the internet? I mean I guess you could

1372
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:10,840
Speaker 1: find me on Twitter or Instagram. I'm not going to

1373
01:17:10,960 --> 01:17:17,360
Speaker 1: tell you what it is, but you could probably find me, Okay, Margaret,

1374
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:19,559
Speaker 1: you got any books coming out? Why s I do?

1375
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:23,080
Speaker 1: It's available for pre order now. It's called we Won't

1376
01:17:23,120 --> 01:17:26,240
Speaker 1: Be Here Tomorrow. And if you pre order it from

1377
01:17:26,439 --> 01:17:28,840
Speaker 1: a k Press box car Books, which is literally a

1378
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:32,679
Speaker 1: bookstar in a box car in rural Maine, red Emma's

1379
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 1: which is named after a friend of the pod Emma Goldman,

1380
01:17:36,439 --> 01:17:39,080
Speaker 1: or Firestorm Cafe, and Asheville. You will get a free

1381
01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:42,240
Speaker 1: art print with your pre order, because pre orders are cool.

1382
01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:48,800
Speaker 1: And yeah, because like the algorithm runs the world algorithm.

1383
01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:55,719
Speaker 1: It's incredibly frustrating, but does drink the algorithm. Sorry, Sophie

1384
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:58,200
Speaker 1: if I stole your line prompting Margaret to talk about

1385
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:00,360
Speaker 1: the books. I'm exciting about the book, is all. It's

1386
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:05,000
Speaker 1: just nice that I don't have to ask. Yeah, I'll

1387
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:08,519
Speaker 1: always I'll always talk about Margaret's books, Margaret Wite's Great

1388
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:13,719
Speaker 1: bart Books. Listen. Margaret has written a bunch of books

1389
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:15,400
Speaker 1: that you should read, and a few of them, off

1390
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:17,760
Speaker 1: the top of my head are a Country of Ghosts,

1391
01:18:18,439 --> 01:18:21,000
Speaker 1: The Lamb will Slaughter the Lion, and the barrel will

1392
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:23,679
Speaker 1: send what it may. Just go go buy those books.

1393
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 1: They're but they're all three of them are short. You

1394
01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:27,080
Speaker 1: can probably read all three of them in one day

1395
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:28,960
Speaker 1: if you like, didn't have a lot of other stuff

1396
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:37,320
Speaker 1: going on. They're fantastic. Thanks all right, by everyone. By

1397
01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:43,040
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1398
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:46,200
Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media, but more podcasts and Cool Zone Media.

1399
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:49,160
Speaker 1: Visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

1400
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:52,000
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1401
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:53,880
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.