1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. And you 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: may remember our interview with artist and author Jason poor 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: Rath from back in when he came by to talk 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: about his book, Rejected Princesses. He has another book, it's 7 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: called Tough Mothers and it's out now, and he was 8 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: traveling around promoting it and was able to stop in 9 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: our Atlantis studio. Yeah, and we talked for a while. 10 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: Because Jason is full of fun stories. So instead of 11 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: giving this a lengthy intro, which he covers most of 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: the ground, we would cover it an intro anyway. Let's 13 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: just hop right into it. Hi, Jason poor Ath, Hi, 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're here. I'm so glad I'm here. 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: It's right and early. We're all a little sleepy still. Ye, 16 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: we're a little punch punk any but it's gonna be fun. Yeah. 17 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: So we had you on before when you're promoting your 18 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: first book. Your second book, Tough Mothers is out. What's 19 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: been happening since last time we spoke. I've worked a lot, 20 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: I know I've been lucky enough to kind of connect 21 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: with you in various cities as we've both been traveling, 22 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: popping up here and there. But it is always kind 23 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: of like a I have a forty two minute window 24 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: between going to this thing and this thing. Do you 25 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: want to grab a drink slash meal? Yeah, even right now, 26 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: I have like an hour to kill and then I 27 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: have to drive off to New Orleans where I'm going 28 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: to the library Annual Librarian Association or American Librarian Association. 29 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: That an annual conference I get. I'm hoping I just 30 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: get to party with librarians. That's that's my jam. I 31 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: know other people who are going to that who are 32 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: also cool, and so I think you'll have a great time. 33 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: All right, Please let I actually know no one there, 34 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: so please send me info on that. Oh. Having worked 35 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: in the library sciences for more than a decade, I 36 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: can tell you there's some you will find fun parties. 37 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: I've never met a terrible librarian. I'm sure they exist, 38 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: but do they go to conferences? I don't know. I'm 39 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: gonna find out. I mean, to be fair, they're terrible 40 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: people in every profession. It's delightful people in every profession. 41 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: Probably the terrible people don't want to go be social 42 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: at a conference. Yeah, I've I've sort of came with 43 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: the idea that if I go to a place and 44 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: everybody seems really cool and there's a whole lot of them, 45 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: there's got to be one terrible person. If I can't 46 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: figure out who it is, it's probably me. I just 47 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: assume it's always made, and that's like the safest, easiest 48 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,959 Speaker 1: I get to go in a little defensive a little 49 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: It works out perfect. What else has been going on 50 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,679 Speaker 1: other than just never stopping? God? So I've continue doing 51 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: these sort of online web entries, but um, unlike the books, 52 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: which are sort of um for those of you who 53 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: don't know I. I this is a series about awesome 54 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: ladies of history that almost nobody's ever heard of. I 55 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: do occasional mythological or folklore, but it's primarily history. I 56 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: do an illustration and then write up. The books are 57 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: just here's one picture that's like a poster of a 58 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: movie that's never been made and likely never will be made, uh, 59 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: sort of in quasi animated princess style, and then write 60 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: up uh for online. I've been doing this sort of 61 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: um like like an illuminated manuscript with tons of illustrations, 62 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: like an online web comic kind of deal, which ten 63 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: x twenty x my workload, which was a real bad 64 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: call on my part. I tell you that, uh, they're popular, 65 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: but man, there are a lot of work Yeah. I 66 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: feel like last time we talked, you were trying to 67 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: figure out ways that you could streamline your process because 68 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: you were already overloaded, and instead you kind of clunked 69 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: it up in a beautiful way. Yeah it looks great, 70 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: but man, I am a massachi. Uh there's there's at 71 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: least a lot out there, and it's it's very effective, 72 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: and I'll eventually figure out how to how to compile 73 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: it together in a book and not have it cost 74 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: a bazillion dollars. But yeah, that's still TBD. And at 75 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: some point you'll figure out how to manage your life 76 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: so you could sleep, uh theoretically, Yeah, yeah, I'll just 77 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: pass out in the middle of it. So tough Mothers 78 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: is out. And I know Tracy and I have both 79 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: prepped some uh some ones that we think might be 80 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: fun to talk about. I also talked to you and 81 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: got which ones were your favorites. Uh, say, do you 82 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: want to jump right in and talk about some tough mothers. 83 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: All right, let's do it, all right. Yeah, So if 84 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: folks have not read this book, Holly and I actually 85 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: blurbed this book. We we had our praise. Our praise 86 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 1: is in the book for this one. So that was 87 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: exciting and uh, something I was genuinely excited about doing 88 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: because I love your work. Thank you, I love your work. 89 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: The first of these awesome mothers that we wanted to 90 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: talk about today was Ada black Jack, whose story is fascinating, 91 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 1: So tell us about her. So. Ada black Jack lived 92 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: early nine hundreds. She was an Inuit woman. Uh, and 93 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: she was not one of these folks who like lived 94 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: with the tribes and whatever. She lived in a city. 95 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: She wasn't like uh well education, she didn't really have 96 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: a whole lot going for uh. In fact, she had 97 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: a married a dude who was a really kind of 98 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: terrible off husband named Jack Blackjack. I know, that's a 99 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: huge surprise that a guy named Jack Blackjack uh wouldn't 100 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: turn out to be father of the year. But yeah, 101 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: alcoholic left her with a kid. And so she's like 102 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: a nineteen early twenties, uh, doesn't have a lot of 103 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: prospects has to her kid has tuberculosis and she has 104 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: to put him up in a an orphanage. So things 105 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: are not really going eight as way at this point. Uh. 106 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: Simultaneous to this, there is a movement by a whole 107 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: bunch of very confident white guys to go claim a 108 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: godforsaken rock about two hundred miles north of Siberia for England. 109 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: It should be noted at this point that UM, a 110 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: bunch of these guys who are out on this scientific 111 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: expedition scare quotes, UM had shipwreck there years prior as 112 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:07,239 Speaker 1: this place called Rangel Wrangel Island uh, and had narrowly 113 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: escaped from that. And they're like, you know, what's a 114 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: great idea. Let's go back and claim it for England. 115 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: And that way it'll be like a vantage point for 116 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: them to like mess with Russia or something. England didn't 117 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: want this, by the way, England had had absolutely no 118 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: interest in this island there. Their literal plan was we're 119 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: gonna go there, We're gonna squat there for a year. Uh, 120 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: and that's like plant a flag and we're gonna get 121 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: this island. It'll be great and England will love it 122 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: and they'll give us a free license to uh become 123 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: reindeer tycoons, like they were going to to just have 124 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: a reindeer farm. Like this was their legit plan. I'm 125 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: not making this up. It was not a good plan. 126 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: It's a bizarre thought process from the beginning, Like we 127 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: shipwrecked on this island and it was awful. What if 128 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: we went back and made two hours now? Yeah, So 129 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: there were there were four of them u that were 130 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: being financed by this guy with an unpronounceable uh Nordic name, 131 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: Bill will Helmer Stephenson. I I apologize, I just I 132 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: can't pronounce that name. It's it's a lot uh so Stephenson, 133 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: let's go with Stephenson. Uh. He has these four like guys, 134 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: two of whom were like fresh out of college. They 135 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: were like nineteen and twenty. Uh. The other two had 136 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: had a little bit of experience with him, and one 137 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: of them, it's it's heavily hinted, had like crazy PTSD 138 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: from being shipwrecked on Wrangle Island before, and he was 139 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: going back to like settle things within himself. So problems. 140 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: I'm still back on picturing England going. Can I return 141 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: this gift for store credit. Well, England didn't know they 142 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: were doing it. They like they just they got a 143 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: like a couple of the people who were going with 144 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: them in the part of the four were uh, Canadian 145 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: citizens and thus like part of the Commonwealth, and like 146 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: they were going to try and the whole thing was 147 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,559 Speaker 1: just it was it was a bit of a mess. 148 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: More over, it was there was a lot of question 149 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: over like is this Russian property? Is this like US 150 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: Alaskan property? Like who who owns what? And they were 151 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: basically like, hey, let's go cause an international incident over 152 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: as if this wasn't as bad an idea as it 153 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: already sounds. Uh. The the expedition um Stephenson had tricked 154 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: a bunch of the people who were on the expedition saying, 155 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: oh yeah, we got plenty of funding, plenty of people 156 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: behind it. Had just talked to the Queen, she's great 157 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: about it. So he'd already lied to a bunch of them. 158 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 1: But he was also like, hey, let's just go with 159 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 1: six months of supplies for a year and we'll just 160 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: hunt while we're there because the Arctic is super friendly. 161 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: That was his brand, is like oh yeah, the Arctic 162 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: totally fine, right, and we'll just get a whole bunch 163 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: of Inuit people will hire them, and then they'll basically 164 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: carry the day. So that was their plan, and they 165 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: went up to Alaska and they go on this this 166 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 1: hiring expedition, and nobody wants to get with these guys, 167 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: nobody except for Ada Blackjack Aida, having almost no prospects whatsoever, 168 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: and like her friends are like, I don't know about 169 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: these guys. She's like, well, I don't I need I 170 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: need to get medicine. My my son's got tuberculosis and 171 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: he's young, and like I needed to be helping that out, 172 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: and either I got I got nothing else I can do. 173 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: And so she signs up with them, and even they're like, oh, 174 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: you're not a great fit. We're looking for like like 175 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: a traditional Inuit person like that racist white people, uh, 176 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: you know, attitudes. They like they wanted someone who could 177 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: like make a skin boat and like could hunt and 178 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: could sow and whatever. And there she's like looking so 179 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: a little bit and they're like, fine, okay, well we'll 180 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: get more Inuit folk along the way. They did not 181 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: get more Inuit folk along the way. Uh. So they 182 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: end up tricking a captain to bring them out to 183 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: Wrangell Island, refusing to tell them tell this captain where 184 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: they're going until they get there or why they're going. 185 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: They just keep paying him money until he just drops 186 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: him off, and he's like, what are these crazy people doing? 187 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: And then as he's uh like going off, they don't 188 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: even wait to plant the flag. So like the the 189 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: guy as he's he's boating off like looks at them 190 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 1: through the periscope and real or the viewing glass and 191 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: he's like, oh, that's oh those stupid idiots. But he's 192 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: still getting out of there because he knows winter is 193 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: about to come and there's like like a one month 194 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: window max where the ice is is at that point 195 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: with the technology and the boats where the boats could 196 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: actually get through. Uh So guy gets out and spreads 197 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: word that and like international incidents starts unfolding in the 198 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: outside world while these guys are on this island, and 199 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: so for like this is this is they they get 200 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: there and it immediately starts getting dark and like this 201 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: is so far north. There's literally like sixty one straight 202 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: days of consecutive darkness. Like it's just it's just a 203 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: bad idea. ATA Blackjack, having had never really left home, 204 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: never really been far away, starts having severe mental health issues, 205 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: and the idiot scientists none of them have had any 206 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: like medical training or psychological training whatsoever, and so like, up, 207 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: she's gone crazy, let's mistreat her horribly. Yeah. No, that 208 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: this's the stuff they do is is just infuriating. Uh. 209 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: And they they like lock her up outside and like 210 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: insult her. I mean they try for a little bit too, 211 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: uh uh, like help calm her down at the beginning, 212 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: but then they're just like, no, this isn't worth it, 213 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: and like do all sorts of really just gnarly stuff. 214 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: Eventually they calmed down and they get into sort of 215 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: a regular routine where they're hunting or whatever. But and 216 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: they make it for two about a year with like 217 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: minor injuries and whatever. Uh. And they have not done 218 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: much science while the entire time they're up there. Uh. 219 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: And then they hit the one year mark and they're like, 220 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: all right, great, the boats coming back. We'll be fine. 221 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: The boat does not come back. Uh. Stephenson had not 222 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: been able to really put together his his ducks in 223 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: a row and so it didn't have a boat coming. 224 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: So he was like, nah, in the press, they'll be fine. 225 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: They'll be fine, like the Arctic is friendly. Remember that's 226 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: my brand. And so they go another year and things 227 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: go real bad. One of them, uh, the guy who 228 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: had who had been there before, who was really working 229 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: out PTSD he um, basically gets scurvy and doesn't tell 230 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: anyone and just starts acting like an a hole, like like, hey, 231 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: he had scurvy before. You think, you know, like to 232 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: tell someone, But he's like, no, I'm a man, I 233 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: can deal with it, dear. It's so infuriating just reading 234 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: all of this stuff. Uh. So, basically at a certain point, 235 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: like mid January, he can no longer walk. Ada is 236 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: taking care of him. She has at this point like 237 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: taught herself to trap, trod herself to uh hunt, etcetera. 238 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: And uh, the other guys are like, okay, well we 239 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: need to get out of here. We won't last until 240 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: like the second year that the boat can get through 241 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: that that one little juncture. So they're like, okay, we're 242 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: gonna just get in the dog pulled sleds and we 243 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: are going to sled to Alaska from this island because 244 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: everything is ice and we're just going to walk to 245 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: Alaska essentially. Uh. And if that doesn't work, We're going 246 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: to go to Siberia and then just find help. They're 247 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: never found again. Uh, they just disappear and things go bad. 248 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: So it's just her and this guy who is like 249 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: the king of butt heads and has scurvy, and she's 250 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: caring for him, and she keeps this dude alive for 251 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: months and months and months. Meanwhile he is he is 252 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: insulting her in the worst ways. She'd had some kids, 253 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: like who had died in infancy and like miscarriages and stuff, 254 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: and he says things like, oh, if this is the 255 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: standard of care that you're providing me, no wonder your 256 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: kids died, which is possibly the worst thing you could 257 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: possibly you could say to another human being. It's pretty bad. Yeah, 258 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,599 Speaker 1: I can't think of anything. I mean, not that I 259 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time thinking about like terrible things 260 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: to say to people where your threshold might right, But 261 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: I struggle to think of anything worse that you could 262 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: say to someone. Um, but she keeps them alive. She 263 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: like starts jury rigging up different things for uh, like 264 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: shooting game and stuff because she's smaller than them, so 265 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: like she needs to have like a gun rest and 266 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. She builds out an entire platform 267 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: to look out for polar bears, which she's terrified of 268 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: due to like her her native upbringing, like a nanuka, 269 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: as a a deity that she was just terrified as 270 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: as a polar bear deity that was going to eat her, 271 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: so all sorts of terrible things. She keeps him alive 272 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: for months and months and months. He finally succombs and 273 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: she spends months alone with just her and the ship's cat, 274 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: whose name is Vic. They called him Snoops because he 275 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: was a snoopy cat um. And eventually, at the two 276 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: year mark, the boat comes back and she's the only 277 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: one alive, and there's this guy Snoops is also alive. 278 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: Snoops makes it. There's there's photos of her on the 279 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: boat with Snoops. Uh. Snoops makes it all the way. 280 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: Snoops has a long and happy life. Uh so yeah, 281 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: she she survives, nobody else does. She's found by this 282 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: expedition two years after they set set off, and she's 283 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: found by this guy Harold Noise. Uh yeah, an o 284 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: I ce noise perfect, but he was not Noise. So 285 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: it just gets worse. This is this is the thing, 286 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: Like just when you think, Okay, it's good, it's it's 287 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: gonna she's in the clear. Everything's cool. She's getting paider. No, no, 288 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: it doesn't get better. Um. So she gets to civilization 289 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: and she's Elsa. She gets her her money, she's uh 290 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: for for the expedition. She's got a bunch of furs 291 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: from all the stuff that she's killed that she sells 292 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: noise like actually it's like, oh, I'll just take them 293 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: off your hands and I'll pay you. And he pays 294 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: her like fifteen percent when she would have gotten otherwise 295 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: because he's awful. Uh. And he she just hands over 296 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of the journals that the men had been keeping, 297 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: including that the guy who survived the longest, whom she'd 298 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: been looking after. Uh. And so then she's just like, 299 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: I don't want to deal with any of you reporters. 300 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: All you people are crazy. I'm gonna go look after 301 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: my son because that's the only reason I did any 302 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: of this, and just nopes right out of there, just 303 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: heads off to the tuberculosis ward and takes all of 304 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: her money and is just like, I'm getting treatment for 305 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: my son. I'm getting reunited with my son. Yeah, and 306 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: is out of the Public Eye. What then immediately happens 307 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: is that Noise takes this journal, which he's supposed to 308 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: hand over to Stephenson, the guy who who finance the 309 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: whole thing, and Noise is like, wait, there's money here, 310 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: there's life, right, there's movies and stuff to be made, 311 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: but I need to spice it up. It isn't good enough, 312 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: so he starts systematically erasing parts of it to make 313 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: it look like Ada black Jack was a prostitute and 314 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: that the man had brought her along and she was 315 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: a woman of ill repute. Sorry, I need to take 316 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: a moment here because I'm so exasperated how awful everyone 317 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: is in this story. Aida is great, but man, man, 318 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: everyone love. The story is that in Ada's life, the 319 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: only thing she could trust was a cat. Yeah cat, 320 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: and uh and her son yeah uh. So he starts 321 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: like making noises about like, oh, yeah, well, she was 322 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: fat and healthy when I found her, and I had 323 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: eaten all of the rations and these men would have 324 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: survived without her, just increasing like the terrible nous of 325 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: the story until word gets to her and she she 326 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: gets on a train and goes I forget. It's like 327 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 1: from the Pacific Northwest I think she was in Seattle 328 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: at the time, goes all the way down to the 329 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: l A Times, walks into the l A Times, gives 330 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: an interview that basically burns the guy's story to the ground. 331 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: She had befriended all of the other men's families, all 332 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: of the other people who on the expedition, and they 333 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: all loved her. They basically adopted her as family. Uh, 334 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: and they all vouched for her. And she basically just 335 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: destroyed this guy's career and then noped off to Alaska 336 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: and lived to to her mid eighties. Her son lived 337 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: he he ended up getting like meningitis. He was blind, 338 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: and why tuberculos has still lived to his mid forties 339 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: or fifties. She had another kid who didn't know any 340 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: of this, like all of this was a complete mystery 341 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: to to him, and and just he kind of was 342 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: this rebellious kids just like a mom is so lame. 343 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: I don't like her man And then like only later 344 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: in life did he realize that now he's still alive, 345 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: how much she'd gone through. Uh, and then agitated for 346 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: her to get a special recommendation from the state of Alaska, 347 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: and she did, but the location of her grave and 348 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: everything is anonymous because she was so sick of people 349 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: coming by and interviewing her. She didn't want anything to 350 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: do with any press for the rest of her life. 351 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: It's like, my ghost grants no interviews. Yeah, she's like, 352 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: I'm done, but yeah, her story is amazing, and she 353 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: shows up in all sorts of of newspapers and everything, 354 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: uh you know, early nine dreds, But she has not 355 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: shown up in in any like other form of media. 356 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: The only thing that she's shown up in, and this 357 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: really cheeses me off, is that there's a if you 358 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: if you search the name Ada Blackjack, there's a clothing 359 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: company is like expensive like leather hand goods or something, 360 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: operating out of Barcelona that appears to be like this 361 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: random lady who's just like, oh, I was so inspired 362 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: by her worry, I'm going to make a bunch of 363 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: leather handbags in her name. Like it's just this completely 364 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: unrelated lady doing this and just taking her name. I'm like, really, 365 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: really you're gonna do that. I think she stopped a 366 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,479 Speaker 1: couple of years ago, but all the stuff is still up, 367 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: so you still get a bunch of Google hits for it, 368 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: which is just not okay Ada Blackjack story is it 369 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: turns exasperating and inspiring. Yeah. Coming up, we're going to 370 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: talk about a Japanese woman who's spearheaded an education movement. 371 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: But first we are going to pause for a quick 372 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: sponsor break. I want to switch gears a little bit 373 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 1: and talk about, uh, someone who kind of spearheaded some 374 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: cool education stuff and also had a lot of stress 375 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,719 Speaker 1: and tragedy in her life, which is Stamatoyama. Yeah, she 376 00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: was the first Japanese woman to basically get a bachelor degree, 377 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 1: and she has this utterly fascinating story. So her story 378 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: kind of starts at the very end of the Age 379 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: of the Samurai. Um So there's like this huge battle 380 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: that I think most people can point to is like 381 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: the end of the age of the Samurai, sort of 382 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: the Meiji Restoration, which I'm sure you've you've talked a 383 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: lot about the sort of stuff, but the Battle of 384 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: Aisu Wakamatsu. Uh. The this uh kind of the western 385 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: backed forces of Japan versus the traditionalist samurai. And she 386 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: was on the losing side. She was on the Samurai side, 387 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: and um, she was holed up in this Aizuo Iizu 388 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: castle and doing what women did in those days, which 389 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: was they were getting shelled by cannons provided by Western forces, 390 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: I believe, and she her her job was to provide 391 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: ammunition for the gunners up on the walls, and um, 392 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: if a shell came in, she was supposed to take 393 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: out a wet blanket and smother it and prevent it 394 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: from going on. That's actually how her sister in law 395 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: to say died and so to say like died and 396 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 1: like a bunch of shrapnel went off and actually left 397 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: a scar on Stamatsu's neck. It should be noted that 398 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: her name was actually Sakiko Yamakala at this point. I'll 399 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: get into why her name changes throughout this, but she 400 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: goes through like many name changes. So Sakiko has lost 401 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,719 Speaker 1: her her sister in law as uh on the losing 402 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: side of this this battle, Samurai lost all all the 403 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: honor and everything, and her family, who's like high up 404 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: lords and whatever, are basically reduced to uh. They're trying 405 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: to look after all of these people who who were 406 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: their vassals. But we're on the losing side and don't 407 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: have a lot of food to go around or whatever, 408 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: and so the forces who won the faction in Japan 409 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: were like, we need to westernize, Like, now we need 410 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: to send a bunch of people abroad. Let's go, uh like, 411 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: send a bunch of people to learn in the West. 412 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: Any volunteers, crickets, Nobody volunteers because nobody, like almost nobody 413 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: had had left Japan at that point. Everyone was just like, oh, 414 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: foreigner barbarians like it was. It was just like poorly 415 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: understood sort of outside. Uh Like nobody spoke English to 416 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: speak of, like there was very little understanding of the 417 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: outside world. Uh So the powers that be just kept 418 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: like enticing Moore as like we'll pay for him, Well, 419 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: we'll give you a stipend, etcetera. And eventually, Um Sachikos 420 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: brother is like, now I volunteer her, and she's like 421 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: wait what, she doesn't get a say in it. Uh 422 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: So she's sent abroad along with four other girls. So 423 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: it's it's you can find pictures of them. There's these 424 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: these five girls, none of whom like all all all Japanese, 425 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: like really young, like she is I think seven or 426 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: eight at the time. Um, the youngest was like three 427 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: or four, and then the oldest were in their teens, 428 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: like thirteen four and the they're all sent to to 429 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: the United States for education, and yeah, it's a really 430 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: poorly thought out plan because they're like, Okay, well where 431 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: are they gonna go get educated? Who who's going to 432 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: take care of them? How? How are we working this out? Whatever? 433 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: But it's it's literally they go from uh, like running 434 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: around with swords in the age of the Samurai to 435 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: they're there for seeing dudes in black face, like they're 436 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: they're like six seven years after the end of the 437 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: Civil War, they have to see the remains of the 438 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: Great Chicago Fire. They're like tourists for like some surprising stuff. Uh. 439 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: And they end up in New England and uh. Two 440 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: of the girls just immediately, the two oldest like I 441 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: can't deal with this, I'm out and go back to Japan. Uh. 442 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 1: And then the youngest three stay there for ten years 443 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: and before she goes uh Sakiko as one last sort 444 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: of interaction with her mother where her mother renames her 445 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: uh and her mother renames her stamat and Stamatsu is 446 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: is a really odd name. There's almost nobody in Japan 447 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: ever named this, and it's it's a weird linguistic like 448 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: it has a ton of meaning if you if you 449 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: understand a bit of Japanese. Basically it it indicates that 450 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: she is waiting for her daughter to come back. Um. 451 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 1: It's a really sorrowful name. The character the first it's 452 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: two characters. There's a Stet and Matsu, and Stet indicates 453 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: like discarding, uh, Like it's it's when you you toss 454 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: something in the trash. It's a steadu um, whereas Matsu 455 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: is a homophone for the verb to wait. But it's 456 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: also the character of her defeated lord, the Izu lord 457 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: that was defeated in battle. So it's this really odd 458 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: name that I've never seen before since um and it 459 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: basically was saying that the she was discarding but then 460 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: going to wait for her daughter is a really sorrowful name. Um. 461 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: So Stimatsu Uh ends up in New England and she 462 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: and the other girls can't speak like any English, are 463 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: terrified everybody around them and basically huddle together and just 464 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: refused to talk to anybody else. And eventually they're like, 465 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: well this isn't working, and they separate them into different 466 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: foster families, and she goes through the education system and 467 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: gradually gets better and better at it. She's like valedictorian 468 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: and stuff. But the education system at the time is 469 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: very I mean this is the early like the the 470 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds, like we don't even have all the 471 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: states in the United States yet. Like she's there for 472 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: like you know, a bunch of celebrations where you can 473 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: see like her with a bunch of flags that don't 474 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: have all the stars in them. So yeah, she's there 475 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: for like the centennial. She the education system has things 476 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: in there like, uh, you know, rank all these civilizations 477 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: in order of barbarism, and like Japan was on it, 478 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: like like how do you ah? But she she does 479 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: amazingly well, she's very, very bright. She ends up gonna 480 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: staying a little bit longer and becoming one of the 481 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: first classes to graduate from Vassar uh and she's high up, 482 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,719 Speaker 1: great grades and whatever. And then she goes back to Japan. However, 483 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: Japan the political winds have changed and they're just like, oh, 484 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: I don't know about all this westerner stuff anymore. And 485 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: so they're like, well it was nice, We're gonna do 486 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: our own thing. They're they're a little bit more traditionalist 487 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: at that point, and so there's no room for her 488 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: or the other girls. The other girls, one of whom 489 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: it had just graduated high school. She was she was younger, 490 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: and the other one didn't get a full on bachelor's 491 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: I think she got a music degree or something. Um, 492 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: it was as like an associate's degree or something. Uh. 493 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: So they all go back. Uh. The older one is like, 494 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get married, It'll be fine. Uh and Stamata 495 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: is like, no, we need to change this. This isn't okay, 496 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: like there's no room for us. But clearly, like we've 497 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: seen what what can be done if if you get 498 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: an education and and girls don't get educated here, we 499 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: need to like get girls education going. But she had 500 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: no political wherewithal to do, so she was like this 501 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: bizarre alien in her own like country. She I mean, 502 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: she had kept practicing Japanese while she was in the 503 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: States with with the other two girls, but her Japanese 504 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: was stilted and weird by the time she got back. 505 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: So she was still an alien in her own country. 506 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: And so she really needed some sort of sort of 507 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: political power in order to pull off what she wanted 508 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: to do, and she found it in a husband. But 509 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: the husband, get this was one of the military commanders 510 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: who was shelling the castle could have killed her sister 511 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: in law, So she had been fetching ammunition to fire 512 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: at him, and he had been ordering can ends to 513 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: fire at her. And they got married. That's clearly the 514 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: romance tale as old as time, Isn't that how they 515 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: usually start. It was a weird match, like her her 516 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: parents were like, no, we will not do this, like 517 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: they just flat out refused him, but he kept at it. 518 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: He had spent some time abroad too, so he also 519 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: kind of felt like an alien in his own country. 520 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: And he was super high up in the military. Uh, 521 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: and he's just he he was. He had the attitude 522 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: of like, I want a wife who can kind of 523 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: keep keep step with me. I want a wife who 524 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: can who's like impressive. I don't want like a trophy wife. 525 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: I want a wife who can like talk and like 526 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: be at these dignitary functions and can talk to uh 527 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: people in other countries and really represent very well. And 528 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: there's no like literally. Stem Us is the most educated 529 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: Japanese woman in the world at this point, possibly in history, 530 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: I mean depends on how you define education, but in 531 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: terms of like traditional like college education and like like 532 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: liberal arts education. She knew more than any woman alive, 533 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: which is crazy. Um So, they do end up getting 534 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: married and it's it's a happy enough marriage. They're never 535 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: really in love, like she never really loves him. Um 536 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: But she changes her name yet again, like she had 537 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: so she had been born Sachiko Yamakawa, then had changed 538 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: her name to Stamatsu um her her mom had. Uh 539 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: the English speakers couldn't quite like pronounced her name correctly 540 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: when they looked at it. They're like Sue tim Matsu 541 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: and they're So she started spelling at st e m 542 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: A t Z so people would understand it. So that's 543 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: that's three name changes. And she gets married so that 544 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: her her last name, her surname goes from Yamakalla to Oyama. 545 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: So that's four name changes. Um So, now she's Stemmata 546 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: o Yama and uh Oyama literally means great mountain, so 547 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: it kind of fits because she kind of end up 548 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: devoted herself to the great mountain Fuji, like the symbol 549 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: of Japan. She's like, make a big change in Japan, 550 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: and she she does, Like she manages to use her 551 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: political ends to become a funder for these girls colleges. 552 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: They start one that's just for sort of nobles, called 553 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: the PRSS School, and the youngest of the three that 554 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: had gone over, a girl named Umtsuda. She she's by 555 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: this point got an education. She comes back and starts 556 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: running this school, and Simatzi like sort of has to 557 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: keep in the background. She's like the patron, she's the funder, 558 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: she's the one who's pulling the strings in the background. 559 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: And UH, she has a really tough life because she's 560 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: still like this outsider, and there's vicious gossip going on 561 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: and around her. One of the great UH pieces of 562 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: Japanese literature, UH is basically a whisper gossip piece slamming her. 563 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,719 Speaker 1: Her step daughter had died of the Spanish flu and 564 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: they basically said it was Stamatsu's fault. And so there's 565 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: this this UH novel. I forget the name. It translated 566 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: the type of bird. H is the name of it, 567 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: but it's um. It basically is her in in everything 568 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: but name, and it blames her as like this evil 569 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: step mom who was like corrupting her children and killing 570 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: them and whatever, and she has to suffer all of this, 571 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: and she does it stoically and silence and like uses 572 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: all of her her influence, and she she writes letters 573 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: back during this time saying, every year my husband gets 574 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: fatter and I thinner. She really was giving everything of 575 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: herself to to make this happen, but it ended up working. 576 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: They they started a school that was the first college 577 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: for Japanese girls college as uh named after UMT Suda 578 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: in time as a Suda College. But Stamatsu was was 579 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: basically the one funding it and made sure that it happened. 580 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: Um there were edicts that um each prefecture had to 581 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: open up a girls schools and uh. The way Stemas 582 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: died actually was the Spanish flu epidemic, which is a 583 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: weird touch basis like this recurring character throughout all of 584 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: human history, Like it shows up like five times in 585 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: this book alone. The woman I just talked about Ada 586 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: Blackjack her her village had been ravaged by Spanish flu 587 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: and that's why she'd had to like, uh move out 588 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: to the big city. Um Like Spanish flu it screwed everyone. Uh, 589 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: So Spanish flu epidemic kids Japan and uh Ume, who 590 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: had been running the school had to step down and 591 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: they didn't have a headmaster, and so Stamatsu basically stepped 592 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: in and ran things for about two weeks looking for 593 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: a headmaster so that the school wouldn't close, and she 594 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: found headmaster and literally the day after she found someone 595 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: to take over for her, she woke up with a 596 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: scratchy throat and died like two weeks later. Um So 597 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: everybody remembers like umt Suda, like she's the face of 598 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: of education, But there was this onoman who suffered tremendously 599 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: in the background, who was there for just an incredible 600 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: transformation of of human culture. Really, who saw just an 601 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: amazing amount of stuff that her name isn't really put 602 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: up nearly on the same pedestal, and she's just a 603 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: fascinating character. Yeah, there's probably no real way to measure 604 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: her actual impact on the globe, Like she just it's 605 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: this background character who shows up everywhere and just she 606 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,879 Speaker 1: was really just trying to live a life and find 607 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: a place for herself and she just had to carve 608 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: it out of granite. Coming up, Jason is going to 609 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: talk about a mother a bit of a different sort. 610 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: But before we get into her story, we have to 611 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: take a quick break and hear from one of the 612 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: sponsors that keeps his show going. So somebody that our 613 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: listeners asked us to talk about pretty often. Who we 614 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: have talked about in a way already is Marsha P. Johnson. 615 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: Because we talk about Marcia P. Johnson a lot in 616 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: our podcast on Sylvia Rivera. They did a lot of 617 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: their work together. So I wanted to take an opportunity 618 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: to talk her about again today because she's in your book. Yeah. UM, 619 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: so this is uh, I'm gonna up up front, real 620 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: real quick discuss. So my book is is uh called 621 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: Tough Mothers, and all of the people in it I 622 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: are mothers of of one sort or another. Um, and 623 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: I uh the subtitle I give Marcia's chapter as the 624 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:31,240 Speaker 1: godmother of the trans civil rights movement. UM. Marcia's gender 625 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: identity is is well beyond my pay grade to actually 626 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: like nailed down. I don't think anybody really can she. 627 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:41,839 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people point her as as 628 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: a trans woman. She identified in several interviews as a 629 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: gay man use female pronouns, but it was also the 630 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: terminology was in its nascent stages, So who really knows 631 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: who can say? Uh, So I'm just gonna leave it there. 632 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: I say, I think that a fair to call her 633 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: the godmother of the of the trans civil rights movement 634 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: because uh, I mean Sylvia Rivera, I think you could 635 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: agree with like really putting in a lot of the 636 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: like uh feet on the groundwork and like a lot 637 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: of the like building all those Uh. Marcia was almost 638 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: like the den mother, like was was helping out, um, 639 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: you know, just looking after people. Wasn't quite as politically 640 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: active they like. Sylvia actually offered her i think a 641 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: president vice president role and she kind of declined early on. UM. 642 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: But she was there for all of it. Um, so 643 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: from the beginning, UM, Marcia Peter Johnson was uh this 644 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: woman who lived in UM, New York during the nine 645 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: UM was there for the Stonewall riots. I think this 646 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: is where most people uh sort of nowhere from. She 647 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: is credited with throwing the the shot glass heard around 648 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: the world. Uh, this is actually I believe a acker 649 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:05,720 Speaker 1: full Uh yeah there that we don't actually know who 650 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: flew who through the first any particular thing, but a 651 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: lot of different people get credited for it. Yeah at 652 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: different times. Yeah, so people point to it. I I 653 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,439 Speaker 1: don't think that's the case. There. There are a couple 654 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: of eye witness accounts of her, like climbing up a 655 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: lamp post and like tossing a purse or something on 656 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 1: a cop car or whatever. She was there and she 657 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: was she was active. Um but yeah, like who started what? 658 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,720 Speaker 1: It's still like a matter of debate that will probably 659 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: never quite be unentangled. Um. So yeah, she uh, like 660 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,280 Speaker 1: so many people in uh in Star the street transit site. 661 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: Action Revolutionaries is a group that Sylvia started. Uh. She 662 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: was a sex worker who uh lived in New York. Um, 663 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: and she was just this incredibly cheerful presence. She had. 664 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 1: Many people referred to her as as St. Martha Marcia. 665 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: She would uh show up and give people cookies. If 666 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 1: she had any money, she'd give it to other people. 667 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: She just was this incredibly cheery, uh pleasant presence for 668 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: for most people. She uh had this incredible sense of 669 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: style where she could just make like head dresses out 670 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: of Christmas lights and whatever. There's so many great pictures 671 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: of her online. She was well beloved for being in 672 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: this band where she uh sang with a lot of 673 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: energy but incredibly off key. Um. She was just she 674 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: uses this real character that looked after everybody around there. 675 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: Um and uh she'd had a real rough life. Shed 676 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: has struggled with mental illness for a lot of it, 677 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: had been hospitalized, had been abused, I mean, you name it. 678 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: She had gone through that, she had gotten shot at 679 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 1: one point. Um just really really tough stuff. But she 680 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 1: and uh Sylvia's had abandoned together. Uh So, whereas Sylvia 681 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 1: was really looking at things from a more political perspective, 682 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: Marcia was kind of looking after all of the other 683 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: folks on the streets, is like almost her wards as 684 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: as as her kids. Like, uh but wouldn't like be 685 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,840 Speaker 1: the first president, as you said, Actually I tend to 686 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: go off in other directions. But yeah, she uh she 687 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: was there at the Gay Pride parade, uh like tried 688 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 1: keeping them out, but then in in the nineteen eighty 689 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: they she and uh Sylvia were marching at the front 690 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: of it, and uh yeah, she she just sort of 691 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 1: was a presence throughout this. She had an unfortunate end 692 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: to her life. Uh that it still remains unresolved. I 693 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,479 Speaker 1: think there's a lot of evidence to the effect that 694 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 1: she was basically murdered by street violence, um like possible 695 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: act of homophobia, transphobia, but um uncertain, It's it's still 696 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: kind of up in the air. I think the police 697 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: basically let it lapse for a long time and then 698 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: are looking to reopen it again at last check. But 699 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 1: I'm actually not up to date on on what is 700 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: going on exactly that this moment was that. Yeah, the 701 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: last I heard it was an officially it was an 702 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: unsolved crime, but widely criticized of never having been investigated 703 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: as it should have been in the first place. Yeah, 704 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:30,800 Speaker 1: they had said as a suicide, but it almost certainly wasn't. Um. 705 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: So Yeah, there's been since then a number of uh 706 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: documentaries and stuff on her. There was one actually that 707 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 1: came out on Netflix that was kind of roundly criticized 708 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 1: by rather a lot of people. That the controversy is 709 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 1: is significantly complicated enough that I can't really summarize it 710 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: particularly well. But I remember being like, oh, I need 711 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,839 Speaker 1: to do more research before I watched that. Um. But yeah, 712 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 1: there's there's been a number of people who have basically 713 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: been trying to canonize her in various ways, and it's 714 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: still a matter of some debate. Um. But she was 715 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: a real, cheery, wonderful human being and we're all poorer 716 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,319 Speaker 1: for her absence. Yeah. I think every picture I've ever 717 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: seen of her, she has this giant smile on her face, 718 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: and so that's how she's portrayed in your book. She's 719 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: like she she has this joyful expression. And then behind 720 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: her in the picture is also Sylvia Rivera in a 721 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: kind of more defiant, militant kind of expression. Yeah. That 722 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: that whole pictures. As with so many of the things 723 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,800 Speaker 1: in my book, I I do a lot of research 724 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: and try and put in a whole lot of different 725 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: details about their lives. So behind Sylvia and that picture 726 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,839 Speaker 1: is uh strength as a star UH banner and that's 727 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: actually traced from a historical star banner that they had. Uh. 728 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 1: Marcia's outfit is legit one of the outfits that she 729 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: wore in one of the parades. In the place that 730 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 1: they're at is a park in New Work that has 731 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,359 Speaker 1: a commemoration of of the Stonewall riots. Uh. There some 732 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: statues that are also in the background, and Marcia's sort 733 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,360 Speaker 1: of handing out cookies. There's like a beatific light behind 734 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: her as a reference to her being sort of the 735 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: st Marcia thing. So yeah, I try to put a 736 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 1: lot of little details in there, and they're gonna switch 737 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,240 Speaker 1: gears a little bit. I love this next one because 738 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: you're opener on it is. This is the true story 739 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 1: of two vicious Helians who eat ran their own crime syndicate. 740 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,280 Speaker 1: I mean, if that doesn't like draw you in instantly, 741 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: uh we uh so yeah. I want to talk about 742 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: the women of the Sydney underworld, Kate and Tilly, Katelye 743 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,800 Speaker 1: and Tillie divine. So they're basically like Sydney's answered al capo. 744 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,360 Speaker 1: And there were these two women who ran their own 745 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: crime syndicates, who hated each other, um and so I 746 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,399 Speaker 1: I sort of view this as a lot of black humor. Um. 747 00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: I will say up front that that what they did 748 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,760 Speaker 1: was no a joke like the fights that the criminals 749 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 1: at that point in in the world or we're getting into. 750 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 1: Because there were no guns really in Sydney. They would 751 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,439 Speaker 1: fight with straight razors they called they called the area 752 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: that they lived in razor Hurst. Uh yeah, So no joke. 753 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,799 Speaker 1: There was a lot of really nerly stuff going on. 754 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,279 Speaker 1: But these two were also just these incredibly colorful characters 755 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:28,759 Speaker 1: who are so funny, so real quick like Tilly. Uh. 756 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 1: They both had to come from kind of abusive backgrounds uh. 757 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: Tilly was from London. She had entered sex work when 758 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 1: she was fairly young, like in her teens. Uh. All 759 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,360 Speaker 1: that I could see is that she actually did it 760 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: of her own volition. But this was her saying that, 761 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,359 Speaker 1: So it's everything's a little like who knows Um had 762 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,359 Speaker 1: married a g I who said that who's from Australia, 763 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: was like, Hey, I have a kangaroo ranch, like my 764 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: family has a kangaroo ranch. Coming moved to Australia. Turns 765 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 1: out the they did not have a kangaroo rinch Big 766 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,360 Speaker 1: Jim divine, And so she moved over and just started 767 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 1: running a bunch of brothels. She took a liberal advantage 768 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 1: of the laws on the books that basically said that 769 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,799 Speaker 1: no man could run a brothel. It was like, I 770 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:19,359 Speaker 1: am no man um, so she she was, and she 771 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 1: was just incredibly violent and super mean, and all of 772 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:27,759 Speaker 1: the police kinda could not stand Tilly. Kate, on the 773 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 1: other hand, had been doing this for a bit longer, 774 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: and she was more of a rum runner. She like 775 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,359 Speaker 1: a sly grog they called it. She would basically got 776 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 1: all around all the prohibition laws by having speakeasies and whatnot, 777 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,320 Speaker 1: and would deal in booze um. And she was also 778 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 1: the like she spent some time as a prostitute, but 779 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 1: mostly is at this point was just this funny, larger 780 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: than life character who would wander around. She she did 781 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: engage in your casual violence, but mostly she was just 782 00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: known for like going up and telling jokes. She would 783 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 1: go into uh courts as just a matter of like 784 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 1: a hobby and give false testimony to try and give people. 785 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,440 Speaker 1: She was like, oh, I was there. He didn't do 786 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,319 Speaker 1: any of that. The cops are no good. She's like, 787 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,279 Speaker 1: I don't know you, who are you. She would like 788 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: sit in the uh the stands during the trials and 789 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 1: just peel vegetables and heckle people, and she's just I 790 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: love her. I would have I would give a lot 791 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 1: to have a time issueed to just like sit there 792 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 1: and listen to her heckle people, well, prepping the evening dinner. 793 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 1: We prepping the evening dinner. UH. One of the great 794 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,279 Speaker 1: anecdotes it survives from one of the the policewomen who 795 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 1: went after them, a woman named Maggie Baker UH, was 796 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,279 Speaker 1: that she was just it was like her first week 797 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: on the job. She was just walking UH the area 798 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,799 Speaker 1: that they both sort of frequented, Razorhurst, just out on 799 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,120 Speaker 1: patrol and Tilly, who the meaner one of the two, 800 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: like comes up and it's just like, I'm not gonna 801 00:45:58,239 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: let you pass, like just gets in her face and 802 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,839 Speaker 1: the street and then a random trolley goes by and 803 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: Kate Lee just sort of jumps off it and starts 804 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 1: hitting Tilly and like holds her down, is hitting her. 805 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 1: It just says, oh go on, you know, police woman, 806 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 1: you do what you need to. I got her, Like 807 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 1: an entire crowd his for him. And this is like 808 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 1: the police was first week on the job. That was 809 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,400 Speaker 1: the tenor of stuff that they got into. They were 810 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,960 Speaker 1: just constantly like I appear from nowhere, I jump off 811 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 1: a trolley and I suck you across the face. But 812 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,720 Speaker 1: they were they were just part of this incredible array 813 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 1: of colorful characters in in Sydney. Uh. There were like 814 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: these two guys who would always fight over like this 815 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,240 Speaker 1: one woman. Like there's a a guy who was a 816 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: a gay black man with platinum blonde hair who absolutely 817 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,640 Speaker 1: no book that I read identified him by his actual name. 818 00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,319 Speaker 1: They only identified him by his epithet that everybody called him, 819 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,719 Speaker 1: which is a word that I cannot say on this 820 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 1: podcast that that I can as as a white person 821 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: I cannot say at all. Um, I went and did 822 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 1: some thinking. It wasn't that difficult to find this guy's 823 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:11,279 Speaker 1: actual name. His name is Alfred Barker. No books, We'll 824 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 1: see with the guy's actual day was. It's in the newspapers. Guys, 825 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,279 Speaker 1: just look it up. It's not that hard. So they 826 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,360 Speaker 1: continue going like nuts at each other, like Kate and 827 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,920 Speaker 1: Tilly for a while, and then in like or so, 828 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,839 Speaker 1: the cops kind of start cracking down. They've got this 829 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,080 Speaker 1: tremendous um kind of overreach of policy where they're able 830 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,719 Speaker 1: to get in and arrest anybody who's suspected of being 831 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,680 Speaker 1: of bad character, and you like a few people are 832 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: worse characters than them, So they start getting arrested. Tilly 833 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,440 Speaker 1: spend some time in London and then comes back and 834 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,360 Speaker 1: most everybody basically gets arrested, and it's just Kate and 835 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,359 Speaker 1: Tilly pretty much left of the old van Guard after 836 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: a while, because a few people, like the courts can't 837 00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,839 Speaker 1: really except that, oh a woman is doing this. No, No, 838 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:04,399 Speaker 1: they're they're they're they're fine, upstanding young ladies. Um. So 839 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,839 Speaker 1: they then sort of switch gears and they're like, well, 840 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,719 Speaker 1: wait if this whole thing is about, you know, the 841 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 1: premise of of the laws that you have to be 842 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,440 Speaker 1: a person of bad character to get arrested. We'll just 843 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,400 Speaker 1: wage a PR campaign against each other. And so they 844 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,440 Speaker 1: started like going after each other in the press and 845 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,960 Speaker 1: just talking crap about each other. Uh. And they have 846 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 1: this whole like ongoing feud, which is amazing that that 847 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:34,719 Speaker 1: spans many many newspaper articles about Tilly's dogs and how 848 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,120 Speaker 1: Kate claims that she lent her the dogs, until he's like, 849 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,120 Speaker 1: that woman had nothing to do with my dogs, and 850 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,480 Speaker 1: my dogs are great, and how dare she claim credit 851 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,320 Speaker 1: for my dogs which are perfect and wonderful. It's really 852 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,200 Speaker 1: like Real Housewives levels of petty. It's so petty, it 853 00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,399 Speaker 1: is peak petty. But Kate ends up. Kate, who's sort 854 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 1: of naturally more bulliant, ends up winning the PR war 855 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: just because she's like handing out Christmas presents and doing 856 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 1: photo ops Santa. Meanwhile, Tilly is doing like fundraisers for 857 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:12,080 Speaker 1: guys who have been convicted of murder, which doesn't really 858 00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,799 Speaker 1: play as well in the press till she's she's not 859 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,000 Speaker 1: real good at that. And in the end, like they 860 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,920 Speaker 1: go for a while this but in the end that 861 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,359 Speaker 1: the tax man kind of gets some and life kind 862 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:29,080 Speaker 1: of catches up with them. Tilly's images is a further complications. 863 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,320 Speaker 1: She had a really abusive marriage that the kangaroo farmer 864 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,120 Speaker 1: was an alcoholic and like really kind of dragged her 865 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:39,239 Speaker 1: name through the mud, and they're divorce. It was just real, 866 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,040 Speaker 1: real awful and very public, and Kate was actually like 867 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:47,360 Speaker 1: surprisingly supportive of her when everybody else was sort of 868 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,400 Speaker 1: taking it as a sign of weakness. And um, Anyways, 869 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,080 Speaker 1: the tax people came after them. They both kind of 870 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,920 Speaker 1: lost their fortunes and got a bit older. A new 871 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,719 Speaker 1: vanguard of criminals started running the place and they were 872 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,600 Speaker 1: kind of old business and so late in life. They 873 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,360 Speaker 1: actually have this amazing photo of that Kate put together 874 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:08,480 Speaker 1: where the two of them like sort of pose with 875 00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,920 Speaker 1: like Kate getting totally up in Tillie's space. Antilie's just 876 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:16,160 Speaker 1: sort of like hunched up and smoking and looking really angry, 877 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,759 Speaker 1: and like there's Kate is just like, oh, we're best 878 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,960 Speaker 1: friends and hugging hert It's it's so funny to look at. 879 00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,719 Speaker 1: And the two died kind of later in life. They 880 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,200 Speaker 1: they're like sixties and seventies and they're just this this 881 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 1: fascinating chapter of Sydney history. They weren't good people, but man, 882 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 1: they were colorful. They were good, but they're great to 883 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,680 Speaker 1: hear about. There was a TV series that covered them 884 00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:45,480 Speaker 1: called Underbelly razor Um, which is I've not seen. I 885 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 1: have heard that it's a really trashy series. It has 886 00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,720 Speaker 1: been described to me as terra bad. Uh So, yeah, 887 00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:55,640 Speaker 1: so you you talk about this a little in the 888 00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,160 Speaker 1: intro to your book, but for listeners to haven't read 889 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,080 Speaker 1: your book, why did you decide to focus on mothers 890 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,200 Speaker 1: this time? So the origin of this because I've been 891 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,400 Speaker 1: doing this for about four years and I used to 892 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,000 Speaker 1: work at dream Works, And there's a simple origin story 893 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,719 Speaker 1: that I give of, Like, you know, the the industry 894 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,239 Speaker 1: wasn't doing as well by female characters as I thought 895 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 1: it should be, and I struck out on my own 896 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,319 Speaker 1: to do with the animation. Studios wouldn't raw. That's the 897 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,920 Speaker 1: easy thing that is true. But the larger story is 898 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,160 Speaker 1: that I had a really awesome mom, and I don't know, 899 00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:31,240 Speaker 1: mom grew up in the fifties in Kentucky and didn't 900 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:35,800 Speaker 1: really have a whole lot of connection to awesome women 901 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,920 Speaker 1: of history. She felt like something was wrong with her 902 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:42,160 Speaker 1: because she was smart and capable and like her her 903 00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:45,680 Speaker 1: mom would always tell her, men don't want a smart wife, 904 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:50,200 Speaker 1: like you should really tone it down. And I can't 905 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,520 Speaker 1: go back in time and give this book to her. Um. 906 00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,799 Speaker 1: I know that she struggled until like her thirties to 907 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,279 Speaker 1: really find other people like her, and that she was 908 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,759 Speaker 1: constantly that that there was something anomalous or incorrect about her. 909 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:08,840 Speaker 1: And she's the most phenomenal human being in my life. 910 00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,600 Speaker 1: Um And that just breaks my heart. So I can't 911 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,160 Speaker 1: go back in time and give this to her, but 912 00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,200 Speaker 1: I can give this to other people who don't have 913 00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,680 Speaker 1: that connection to all the women threat history, which is 914 00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,120 Speaker 1: it's it's dumb, it's our it's our communal birthright. This 915 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,279 Speaker 1: is something that everybody should grow up with as you 916 00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:32,200 Speaker 1: should know that there's all these amazing women throughout history 917 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,600 Speaker 1: who it's it's not that you know girls can do anything, 918 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,840 Speaker 1: that's they already have um like and here's the proof. 919 00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:42,359 Speaker 1: But these stories tend to get whittled down. Um And 920 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,960 Speaker 1: so uh, it's part of why I did this, And 921 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,480 Speaker 1: then why why the second volume specifically about moms, Is 922 00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:53,600 Speaker 1: that a above and beyond just sort of the stereotypes 923 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,880 Speaker 1: of what girls and women can be. I think that 924 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,400 Speaker 1: the the idea of what mothers can and should be 925 00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,480 Speaker 1: is really restrictive, and that the phrase bad mother is 926 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:10,360 Speaker 1: this incredibly pernicious thing that kind of haunts people. And 927 00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,080 Speaker 1: I just wanted to show there's a great variety of 928 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:18,640 Speaker 1: mothers who have done amazing things, and that to view 929 00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,640 Speaker 1: motherhood as this monolithic like here's what it is to 930 00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:27,000 Speaker 1: be a good mother is really reductive. And I wanted 931 00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:31,480 Speaker 1: to celebrate moms in a way that hadn't really been done. 932 00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,279 Speaker 1: It's it's for many people I think kind of uncomfortable, 933 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:39,200 Speaker 1: like certainly Katelee untilly divine or not stand up paragons 934 00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,359 Speaker 1: of society. But I love them anyways. And they were 935 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,080 Speaker 1: both moms. They were they'd had kids the entire time, 936 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,080 Speaker 1: they were doing all the things that I just told you. 937 00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:52,120 Speaker 1: I hate it when people underestimate women. I hate it 938 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:56,520 Speaker 1: when people underestimate moms. Um, So this was sort of 939 00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,440 Speaker 1: for that. I love that there's a juxtapus Asian to 940 00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,239 Speaker 1: be had there, Like when you're talking about people like 941 00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:07,480 Speaker 1: Kate and Tilley, who were probably rough in the classic rough, 942 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,680 Speaker 1: tough and dangerous to know but at the same time, 943 00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,080 Speaker 1: that doesn't exclude the possibility that they could also be 944 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,600 Speaker 1: nurturing and caring, And you know, I think that's kind 945 00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:19,600 Speaker 1: of like the to me, that's what's important about these 946 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:24,600 Speaker 1: stories is that nothing is simple in life, and and 947 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,000 Speaker 1: we tend to, like you said, be reductive and like 948 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,440 Speaker 1: kind of want to pair people down to the basics. 949 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,960 Speaker 1: But you can't erase all of it, and sometimes it 950 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,480 Speaker 1: is contradictory behavior, but it's important to acknowledge that that's 951 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,000 Speaker 1: part of being a complex human. That's what I love 952 00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:40,879 Speaker 1: about the people that I cover. I mean, I don't. 953 00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,319 Speaker 1: I don't cover people who are simple are trying not 954 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:47,280 Speaker 1: to like. I want to cover all of their messy, 955 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,680 Speaker 1: weird stuff. That's the stuff that I love best about them. 956 00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:55,040 Speaker 1: Because I can't identify with people who are Pollyannas. There's 957 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,520 Speaker 1: a reason it's called rejected princesses. None of them are 958 00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:59,880 Speaker 1: going to make the cut for Disney, Are you kidding? 959 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:04,120 Speaker 1: Many many thanks to Jason Poorath for swinging by the studio. 960 00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:07,560 Speaker 1: That is always such a treat and Tough Mother's Amazing 961 00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,240 Speaker 1: Stories of History's mightiest Matriarchs is available wherever books are sold. 962 00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:15,719 Speaker 1: It is an absolute delight. Yeah, it is super duper fun. Uh. 963 00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:18,759 Speaker 1: Since that episode runs a little long, because we're yappy, 964 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,200 Speaker 1: I have the shortest of emails to share today. It 965 00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,480 Speaker 1: is from our listener, Carrie. She writes, high, longtime listener, 966 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,279 Speaker 1: thank you so much for all the educating and interesting podcasts. 967 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,680 Speaker 1: I just bought my ticket for your Portland's show this fall. Yeah, yeah, 968 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:33,000 Speaker 1: we'll see you there, Carrie. I thought you would enjoy 969 00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,080 Speaker 1: to know that my one year old loves Holly's laugh 970 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,320 Speaker 1: and every time Holly laughs Winifred laughs too. Of course 971 00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,800 Speaker 1: I can't then help but laugh as well. Thanks to 972 00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:42,680 Speaker 1: keep up the good work. That just makes me happy, 973 00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:46,040 Speaker 1: so I wanted to read it. Everybody laugh more. Yeah, 974 00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:48,200 Speaker 1: I saw that email this morning and it made me 975 00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,480 Speaker 1: very happy. And it's got the cutest picture of a 976 00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,759 Speaker 1: laughing baby. Uh yeah, everybody laughed more. It's good for you. 977 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,040 Speaker 1: I'm sure some people don't like my laugh that's fine, 978 00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,800 Speaker 1: but I'm glad that some people do not. Everything is 979 00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:01,040 Speaker 1: for everybody. But if you want a right to us, 980 00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,319 Speaker 1: you could do so as well at History Podcast. At 981 00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,160 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. You can find us across 982 00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,440 Speaker 1: the spectrum of social media as Missed in History and 983 00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:12,600 Speaker 1: if you go to missed in History dot com, there 984 00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,400 Speaker 1: we are with every episode of the show that has 985 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,840 Speaker 1: ever existed, as well as show notes for any episodes 986 00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,799 Speaker 1: that Tracy and I have worked on. Please join us 987 00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,160 Speaker 1: at missed in History dot com and chat with us. 988 00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,759 Speaker 1: It'll be fun and uh. You can subscribe to the 989 00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:30,040 Speaker 1: show at Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or wherever you get podcasts. 990 00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,759 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit 991 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:44,879 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot com.