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Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three point thirty two,

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Speaker 1: episode two.

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Speaker 2: Of their Daily's I Guys Stay production of iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 2: This is a podcast where we take a deep dive

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Speaker 2: into America's shared consciousness. And it is Tuesday, April second,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: Four, the day after April Fool's Day, wherein we all

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Speaker 1: admit they got our ass. They did get our ass

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Speaker 1: in some cases.

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Speaker 3: I went to seven eleven and I demanded they give

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Speaker 3: me this the hot dog flavor of sparkling water, and they.

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Speaker 1: Called the cops. Yeah, that video's going viral.

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Speaker 3: You really well, Yeah, I probably should have kept my

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Speaker 3: clothes on, but I was really upset. Yeah, but yeah,

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Speaker 3: I will say Also, April second is National DIY Day

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Speaker 3: for all of us that tried to do it ourselves,

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Speaker 3: National ferret Day, National Peanut butter and Jelly Day. And

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Speaker 3: also I'm wondering if, because this is the day after

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Speaker 3: fooling people and being very deceptive, it's also National Reconciliation Day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Man, I've got a lot of apologizing to do.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, and I've got a lot of forgiving to do.

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Speaker 1: Exactly know, if you heard our trending episode yesterday, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't kind about my kids April fools pranks. Yes, I'll

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Speaker 1: show you the sign myles on me.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Not not nice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So it's written with gusto too. I can tell it.

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Speaker 1: Exclamation point that it was. It was after a kick me,

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Speaker 1: so they built to it. It wasn't just like you know,

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Speaker 1: this guy is a piss pig.

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Speaker 3: Soccer action. Yeah, but yeah.

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Speaker 1: So we made it through April Fool's Day and to

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Speaker 1: Peanut Butter and Jelly Day. Peanut butter and jelly yeah,

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Speaker 1: together and never never heard of such a thing. That's

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Speaker 1: that's wild. My name is Jack O'Brien aka Kangaroo Jack O'Brien. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I am also known as Kangaroo Jack o' brian.

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Speaker 4: Pretty frequently.

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Speaker 1: I'm compared to that film because I often lure you

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Speaker 1: in with the promise of a rapping kangaroo and then

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Speaker 1: it turns out it's just something that I dreamed.

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Speaker 3: Oh good, that's not in the movie.

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Speaker 4: Huh it is.

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Speaker 1: It's a dream sequence.

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Speaker 3: Oh but it's not a rapping. It's not about a rapping.

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Speaker 1: It's not about a rapping kangaroo.

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Speaker 3: Who's that Anthony Edwards?

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Speaker 1: Anthony Edwards and the kid who played the chubby kid

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Speaker 1: from or Stand By Me. Jerry O'Connell.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yep. Oh, Michael Shannon is also in it.

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Speaker 3: Wow yeah early Michael Shannon, Wow wow wow, just bringing.

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Speaker 1: The I mean Michael Shannon intensity.

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Speaker 3: To cannot reget this rapping kangaroo to be very entertaining, like,

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Speaker 3: oh god, sorry, Michael Shannon.

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Speaker 1: That AKA courtesy of the Frequent News Ghost makes sense

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Speaker 1: that they're good at ak is because they're handle an

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Speaker 1: ak of this show. Everybody's always saying, hey, have you

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Speaker 1: checked out the Frequent News Go, I mean the daily

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Speaker 1: site case.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Anyways, I'm throwing to be joined as always by my

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Speaker 1: co host, mister Miles.

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Speaker 3: Grass Miles Gray AKA, ooh wee, I have unbreakable glasses.

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Speaker 3: Oh oh, I dare you to try.

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Speaker 5: I don't care that they just broke anyway, I don't

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Speaker 5: care about that. Shout out to the Ray J's Unbreakable

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Speaker 5: Sunglasses video where he's asking Speedy to break his sunglass.

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Speaker 3: Because they don't break them, and then when he breaks them,

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Speaker 3: he said, I don't care. It's just the best, just

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Speaker 3: the best sequence of events. Shout out to Max r

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Speaker 3: on the Discord for for memorializing that in one of

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Speaker 3: my favorite Weezer songs.

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Speaker 4: So appreciate amazing.

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Speaker 1: Well, We're thrilled, Miles to be joined in our third

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Speaker 1: seats by an affordable housing advocate who is working to

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Speaker 1: help address modern day redlining by trying to overturn the

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Speaker 1: Thurmond Amendment. Please welcome to the show.

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Speaker 6: Useuf dog. Well, I appreciate that. I wish I had

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Speaker 6: an aka I could reference, but uh, it's just you.

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Speaker 3: So it's just sometimes sometimes the name is enough. You know,

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Speaker 3: it proceeds, you know, Valley of the Doll.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Let's not think about dollar arts by hole to bring

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Speaker 3: it back to the nineties. Is that the one some day?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Well, think is that? Is that doll parts? I don't

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Speaker 3: not a lot of Courtney Love Cobaine fans in here.

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Speaker 4: Huh okay, I was.

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Speaker 1: I was Cobaine, but I think Hoole went a little

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Speaker 1: too hard for me. Look, man, I'm still getting over

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Speaker 1: this idea of peanut, butter and jelly together.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's that's crazy.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yep, you will ache like I that's doll parts,

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Speaker 3: all parts. Thank you nineteen ninety four brain. You're welcome. Uh,

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Speaker 3: but yusef, where are you coming to us.

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Speaker 6: From Allentown, Pennsylvania?

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Speaker 3: Okay, okay, I mean it's kind of a seminole place

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Speaker 3: in terms of housing when we're talking about housing, right, I.

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Speaker 6: Mean, certainly, I think it's the type of city that's

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Speaker 6: emblematic of a lot of our cities across the country

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Speaker 6: that really are a tale of two cities. Right. There's

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Speaker 6: places in this community that are vibrant and thriving, and

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Speaker 6: there's a lot of other parts in the city that

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Speaker 6: have quite frankly been left behind.

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Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, Yeah, oh man, I'm really looking forward to

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Speaker 3: our discussion because, like as you were saying before we came,

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Speaker 3: you came on, you know, like when we have these

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Speaker 3: guests on to talk about a specific subject, I mean,

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Speaker 3: just the thermin Amendment just opens the door to so

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Speaker 3: many different conversations, whether it's about our car sol system,

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Speaker 3: whether it's about housing, how we view housing, and even

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Speaker 3: how America even does its threat assessments, and they typically

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Speaker 3: just end up being just overtly racist. And this is

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Speaker 3: no exception, There's no exception.

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Speaker 1: What is the attitude in Allentown towards the Billy Joel song.

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Speaker 6: One of ambivalents because it's a good song, right, So

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Speaker 6: it's kind of hard not to like the song. But

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Speaker 6: I think the city has really done a tremendous job

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Speaker 6: of reinventing itself, and so you know, there's a sense

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Speaker 6: that that song really doesn't represent the spirit in the

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Speaker 6: future of Allentown today. So there's a level of ambivalence.

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Speaker 6: But it's Jill Billy Joel, so you can't really, you know,

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Speaker 6: hate it too much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he said opens up, well we're living

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Speaker 1: here in Allentown, and you know, I mean that's those

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Speaker 1: are the only lyrics that I know. So I was

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Speaker 1: going to try and say something profound about it, but okay,

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Speaker 1: I can't remember any of the other parts. Something about

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Speaker 1: a factory town.

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Speaker 3: There, you remember what that song about?

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Speaker 1: Incisive commentary like, well, we're living here in Allentown is

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Speaker 1: a lyric in Allentown there? It is all right, great, Well,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about housing in a moment, but

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Speaker 1: before we get into our expert get area of expertise,

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Speaker 1: we do like to get to know you a little

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Speaker 1: bit better by asking what's either something from your search

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Speaker 1: history that's revealing about who you are or something that

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Speaker 1: you have recently screencapped short first screen captured that is

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Speaker 1: revealing about screen shot it even green shot a screen

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Speaker 1: shot it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so my last screen shot was actually a list

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Speaker 6: of Republicans on the Financial Services Committee, so directly related

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Speaker 6: to this work on the the Therm and Amendment. As

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Speaker 6: I'm sure we're going to get into this is this

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Speaker 6: is going to be a big month because we have

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Speaker 6: legislation that's going to be introduced, but we're trying to

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Speaker 6: make it bipartisan, and so I'm doing a lot of

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Speaker 6: work trying to identify folks on the right who might

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Speaker 6: be interested in this common sense reform to extend opportunity.

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Speaker 4: How's it going? How are you feeling about that?

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Speaker 1: How you see any any names on there that you're

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Speaker 1: like they seem to exist in a version of reality.

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Speaker 7: Uh.

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Speaker 6: I tend to be an optimistic person. I always feel

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Speaker 6: like the thing with legislation is the key is to

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Speaker 6: actually get in front of these people. So for me,

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Speaker 6: the challenges how do you how do you look at

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Speaker 6: this list and how do you mine your network to

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Speaker 6: get in the door. Because you believe that if you

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Speaker 6: can just get in front of these people and explain

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Speaker 6: what you're trying to do, common sense will prevail and

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Speaker 6: you'll get through, right.

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Speaker 3: Is that do you think that's I mean, I guess

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Speaker 3: there's something with housing. How do you how do you

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Speaker 3: sort of tailor this argument to appeal to someone like

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Speaker 3: Ron Johnson who has dealt in all kinds of really

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Speaker 3: backwards thinking out loud when it comes to things like

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Speaker 3: the carcial system or race and things like that. Do

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Speaker 3: you have to is he actually be like, oh, that's

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Speaker 3: messed up, like people who just had a drug charge

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Speaker 3: can't get in the housing? Like yeah, I want to

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Speaker 3: do that? Or is it? Or like how do you

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Speaker 3: thread that needle? Because from my perspective, like what do

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Speaker 3: you tell Ron Johnson to try and get him to

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Speaker 3: see the light in terms of something like this is

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Speaker 3: common sense reform, like that there's no net negative here.

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Speaker 3: This is like about just like making things a little

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Speaker 3: bit more equitable. And they'll be like, what is that woke?

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I'm curious what sort of what's the what's

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Speaker 3: the dance with something like that?

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Speaker 6: Well, so I think first of all, you always have

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Speaker 6: to contextualize this in the framework of opportunity, right, because

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Speaker 6: in theory, everybody wants to extend opportunity to people in

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Speaker 6: this country in theory, and so it was really about legislation,

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Speaker 6: like the Thermin Amendment denies people have been justice impacted

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Speaker 6: the ability to be judged based on market measures and

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Speaker 6: assessments of risk. Right. So, the market has a way

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Speaker 6: of predicting or suggesting how reliable you're going to be

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Speaker 6: as a creditor. Right So it's your credit score, it's

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Speaker 6: it's your income history. There's a lot of different measures

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Speaker 6: that objectively, the market is signs to you to suggest

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Speaker 6: your risk profile. The Thermin Amendment nullifies all of that.

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Speaker 6: And so the case that I made was, Hey, give

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Speaker 6: these folks access to the free market and the free

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Speaker 6: market mechanisms of risk like everyone else. And you know,

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Speaker 6: and I made the analogy that I can literally go

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Speaker 6: to a bank right now and borrow a million dollars.

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Speaker 6: I can do that, but I could not secure a

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Speaker 6: townhome apartment because of my twenty five year old drug

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Speaker 6: distribution conviction. That just didn't seem to make a lot

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Speaker 6: of sense. Wow, oh, now does that translate to actual support?

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Speaker 6: I mean that's the right, right, I mean, anyone anyone

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Speaker 6: can sit across from you and say, yeah, that doesn't

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Speaker 6: make sense. But what you really need are folks who

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Speaker 6: are going to put some capital on the table and

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Speaker 6: help you affect this change.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, abstraction is the root of the problems that are

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Speaker 1: happening where it's like easier to just make somebody a concept,

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Speaker 1: you know that's like on your screen or like a

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Speaker 1: you know, a number on a spreadsheet. And when you

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Speaker 1: actually get in a room with a person and they

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Speaker 1: have to deal with the fact that you know, you

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Speaker 1: are a human being, it at least for that time

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Speaker 1: can make a big change. But then after the fact,

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Speaker 1: as a matter of like getting them not to go

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Speaker 1: back to the comfortable thing of you know, a system

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Speaker 1: that seems to lend itself to just abstracting people and

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Speaker 1: treating people as like values on a spreadsheet. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: doing truly the difficult important work. What is something that

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Speaker 1: you think is underrated?

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Speaker 6: I would say, and primarily because I'm a father of

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Speaker 6: a fifteen year old, and I would say youth sports.

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Speaker 6: So she plays a lot of sports, takes up a

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Speaker 6: ton of my time, but it really just gives her

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Speaker 6: a great outlet to develop confidence, learn the priorities of discipline.

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Speaker 6: So I meet young people all the time who aren't

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Speaker 6: in organized sports for a variety of reasons, and I

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Speaker 6: just think we should do more of that. Like when

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Speaker 6: I was a kid, I mean, even though I wasn't

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Speaker 6: in organized sports leagues, like we would always just go

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Speaker 6: to the park and play pickup basketball or something like this.

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Speaker 6: And now, I mean, God, if I didn't force her

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Speaker 6: to play sports, she would be on her phone on

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Speaker 6: TikTok or something literally ungodly hours a day. So I'm

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Speaker 6: a big believer in youth sports.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like how does cause I have very early experiences

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Speaker 1: with youth sports and it's hard to like maintain sanity

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Speaker 1: and maintain your distance from it. Like do you find

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Speaker 1: yourself just swallowing your tongue while you're at I think

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Speaker 1: your daughter plays tennis.

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Speaker 6: Tennis and basketball, and I would say, your kids are

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Speaker 6: gonna let you get away with voicing your opinion when

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Speaker 6: they're five and six or seven. Try that at our

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Speaker 6: high school back you won't be back there. So I

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Speaker 6: think you learn just as they get older, what they're

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Speaker 6: comfortable with. And at the end of the day, if

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Speaker 6: if they don't want to hear you, you know, yelling

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Speaker 6: your feedback, you're gonna have to find another way to

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Speaker 6: give it.

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Speaker 3: That is so wild because like, I can't remember half

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Speaker 3: of my teammates from like some of the organized sports

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Speaker 3: I played as a kid, but I remember the loudest

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Speaker 3: parents that were not my friends. I'm like, damn, bro,

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Speaker 3: mister Borna is going the fuck off again. And you're

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Speaker 3: like and you're like, you're like, yo, man, it's cool.

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Speaker 3: Your dad's so intense, and it's just like, no.

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Speaker 1: Bro, just like.

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Speaker 8: Does his look his look that he just gave I

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Speaker 8: swear I see that every basketball Yeah, your daughter in particular, No, no, No,

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Speaker 8: I've learned my lesson.

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Speaker 6: She will. Yeah, I have to be very deliberate in

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Speaker 6: what I'm doing. But there are some other parents that, oh, man,

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Speaker 6: these guys and it's typically the dad. Yeah, they're they're

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Speaker 6: all in and you're like, whoa, take it down a

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Speaker 6: little bit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, How do you deal with the screen side

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Speaker 1: of it, like the other side? You know, it sounds

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Speaker 1: like you're thinking of youth sports as like sort of

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Speaker 1: one weapon on the side of good against you know,

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Speaker 1: the screens just taking over. Like I heard in talking

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Speaker 1: to a parent this weekend, they were like, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: kind of feels messed up that like one of the

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Speaker 1: things that like you have as a parent is be like,

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Speaker 1: no iPad. Then if you're not going to do that,

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Speaker 1: no iPad, then we're gonna like basically we're going to

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Speaker 1: take your drugs away.

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Speaker 3: Right right right? You know, yeah right your iPad?

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah, But like, how how has that process

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Speaker 1: been for you as a parent of fifteen year old?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well, as the parent of any fifteen year old

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Speaker 6: is going to tell you, it has to be something

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Speaker 6: serious if you're going for the phone, because you know

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Speaker 6: all hell is going to break out, So it has

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Speaker 6: to be level ten where it's just like, okay, the phone,

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Speaker 6: give me the phone, and you're willing to stand on it.

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Speaker 6: But honestly, I have to be very intentional because otherwise

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Speaker 6: you're gonna say give me the phone and you're gonna

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Speaker 6: encounter a headache that you're just like, man, this wasn't

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Speaker 6: worth it for me, but.

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Speaker 3: My phone too.

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Speaker 6: Actually exactly exactly.

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Speaker 1: What what's something you think is overrated?

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Speaker 6: Oh? By far? The Stanley water bottles. That's just ridiculous.

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Speaker 6: So yeah, my daughter has a couple of them, which

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Speaker 6: I refuse to buy any of them. But it's sure

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Speaker 6: it's a I'm sure it's a high quality water bottle. Right,

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Speaker 6: I'm familiar with the company, but there's a whole bunch

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Speaker 6: of high quality water bottles that will keep your beverages

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Speaker 6: cold or keep them warm, and they don't have that

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Speaker 6: same price point. So I just think those things are

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Speaker 6: terribly overrated.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like there were due for the backlash

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Speaker 1: where some other brand like kind of pops up. We've

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Speaker 1: talked about what's the od one, the o wala Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh walla. Yeah, that one's pretty good, but doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like it's quite.

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Speaker 3: The straw built in. Yeah, it's just but I mean

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Speaker 3: it just shows you again like it was all because

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Speaker 3: of the marketing genius at Stanley, like they pressed it's

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Speaker 3: just all they just want full court press on influencers.

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Speaker 3: That's gonna completely inform the market of what's cool. And

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Speaker 3: when someone's like, yo, I got this limited edition one.

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Speaker 3: It's the Philippines exclusive color way of a fucking cup,

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Speaker 3: and people are like, ah, I'll pick five dollars for it.

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Speaker 3: On the on the secondary market, it's yeah, it becomes

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Speaker 3: this other thing. But yeah, I mean I feel like,

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Speaker 3: you know, maybe yeah, there's maybe there's a company that

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Speaker 3: comes in. It's like we got the two dollars cup, right,

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Speaker 3: everyone should be buying. But then it's like, but it

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Speaker 3: is made of lead, So we just be really clear

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Speaker 3: on that. Yeah, there's like lead in one of the

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Speaker 3: parts of it and that and I know that that

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Speaker 3: caused some people, especially in Los Angeles to clutch their

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Speaker 3: yoga blocks and be like, oh, okay, right.

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Speaker 1: Anymore stupid La and their soft hippie dippy ways. They're

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Speaker 1: not happy drinking water out of lead cups.

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Speaker 3: There's just a part of the cup you don't interact

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Speaker 3: with the part that has lead in it. Okay, that's

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Speaker 3: the thing that many of the Stanley the Stanley stands.

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Speaker 1: Plus it will help you if you're getting dental X rays.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: True, it makes sense, like we needed something that could

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Speaker 1: appear with you in like a shot, you know, like

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Speaker 1: when you're like in a you know, shoes were the

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Speaker 1: thing that was the most kind of captured by the

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Speaker 1: influencer market for a long time. And then like, but

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Speaker 1: you can't have your shoes in like a selfie with

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Speaker 1: you unless you're really flexible. So the Stanley water bottle

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Speaker 1: like answers that.

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Speaker 3: It's it's like a bag or something because you can

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Speaker 3: have your whole outfit on. Let them know. There's all

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Speaker 3: my signifiers. And also I got the quencher is the

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Speaker 3: forty ounce m hmm. Yeah. I think I'm just intimidated

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Speaker 3: by like things that are that cumbersome too. It's like, bro,

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Speaker 3: I can't, fuck I can't. I can't walk around with

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Speaker 3: a gigantic cup all the time, like like in the house,

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Speaker 3: I have like a normal cup. I can just keep refilling.

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Speaker 3: But something that big. I remember even when I was

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Speaker 3: like at the height of like my water drinking, I

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Speaker 3: like tapped out of like thirty ounces like.

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Speaker 1: That, and we're glad we got you back from the edge.

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Speaker 1: Thanks and touch and go there. Yeah, those meetings are helping.

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Speaker 3: I had to keep going to the bathroom.

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Speaker 6: I'm like, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 1: I usually that's the sign of a different problem, but

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Speaker 1: it was, yeah, like, no, you can't stop drinking water.

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Speaker 6: So there's a perfect in the thermin event.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, is he beaming up in the bathroom? No, man,

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Speaker 3: he's drinking forty ounces of liquid at a time. We

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Speaker 3: told him it said danger to his kidneys, but he

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Speaker 3: doesn't listen.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We found one doctor quote doctor in quote who says

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Speaker 1: that he needs forty ounces of water between me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, is that even possible?

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Speaker 1: Bro?

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Speaker 3: My favorite doctor Bradley from Sublime forty Ounces of Freedom.

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Speaker 3: That's how I that's how, that's how.

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Speaker 1: I think that's what that song was actually about.

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Speaker 3: It's Padrinck and forty.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's take a quick break and we'll come

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Speaker 1: back and we will get into it.

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Speaker 4: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 3: And we're back.

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Speaker 1: And so we've been talking about the Thurman Amendment, and

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Speaker 1: so just to confirm off top, the thermon we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here is not beloved Yankees catcher Thurman Munson. No,

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Speaker 1: it's not even kill Bill star Uma Thurman. It is,

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Speaker 1: in fact, a much worse Thurmond Strom. Is that correct,

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Speaker 1: segregationist Strom. Thurmond is who this amendment is named after.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, Yeah, there's a really interesting Yeah. He just threw

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Speaker 3: it out there in the eighties and kind of completely

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Speaker 3: changed the course of our housing policies, because right when

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Speaker 3: this was happening, this was about making amendments of the

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Speaker 3: Fair Housing Act, where it's like, well, maybe we need

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Speaker 3: to add a new category of protected class disability, and

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Speaker 3: then he's like, ah, I got one, I got one,

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Speaker 3: I got one. What if we strip it away from

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Speaker 3: drug dealers.

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Speaker 1: How about that, y'all?

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Speaker 3: Is strong Therman back at it again. I know I

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Speaker 3: took a big o in nineteen sixty four by preventing

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Speaker 3: the Civil Rights Act from happening, but I never let

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Speaker 3: it go of that anger, and I'm trying to get

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Speaker 3: it back in today.

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Speaker 1: In the eighties.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was nineteen eighty eight, was it?

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Speaker 6: Yeah? It was eighty eight. And what's interesting about it

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Speaker 6: is I was in contact with his archives at Clemson University,

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Speaker 6: and so I said, Hey, I'm working on this legislation.

401
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Speaker 6: Can you send me anything you have about this particular amendment.

402
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Speaker 6: And you would think, you know, there'd be communications or

403
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Speaker 6: correspondence with trained associations or advocates or impacted people. Literally,

404
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Speaker 6: there was nothing, nothing in the archives except one piece

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Speaker 6: of paper, and it was his remarks that he delivered

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Speaker 6: after the passage of the nineteen eighty eight Fairhousing Amendments Act.

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Speaker 6: And in his written remarks, he anticipated this amendment failing

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Speaker 6: it literally says, and while my amendment did not pass,

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Speaker 6: blah blah blah. He actually crossed that out and in

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Speaker 6: handwritten he hand wrote, I'm glad my amendment passed and

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Speaker 6: blah blah, blah. So he didn't. I don't even think

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Speaker 6: he anticipated this passing.

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Speaker 1: Right, Wow, that is super. I had no idea that

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Speaker 1: because I know, like, oh wow, we're racist racist in

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Speaker 1: this country. Damn all right, guys, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Oh I don't even know. I'm gonna be real, man.

417
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Speaker 3: I'm used to going out there saying see that going

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Speaker 3: this way. Yeah, I used to say something so flagrant

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Speaker 3: They're like, strong, shut up, and then I'm like, oh okay,

420
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Speaker 3: but then they passed. Let me play the clip though,

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Speaker 3: from just him at the lectern, basically saying like this

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Speaker 3: is this is this is what I'm proposing, little strong therment.

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Speaker 7: One conviction is sufficient, my man. Was simple says that

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Speaker 7: one conviction is sufficient for landlord to refuse to rent

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Speaker 7: to a drug dealer. It's that simple always, my colleagues,

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Speaker 7: to vote for Amendment Faith is to do so makes

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Speaker 7: the rights of law abiding citizens meaningless. Drug dealers deserve

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Speaker 7: no federal protection.

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Speaker 1: And here we are voice brought to you straight from

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Speaker 1: the eighteen eighties, by the way. Oh yeah, just everything

431
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Speaker 1: about his voice and accent. I was like, is that

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Speaker 1: being played on a phonograph from like a retired Civil

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Speaker 1: War general. I'm pretty sure.

434
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Speaker 3: The suit he's wearing, if there was a pantone color

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Speaker 3: for it, it would be Confederate gray. How on point

436
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Speaker 3: it is. But you said, can you kind of break

437
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Speaker 3: down just sort of the nuance here, like what exactly

438
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 3: I mean, we've sort of touched upon it and some

439
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 3: people may know, but just kind of explain the Thermin

440
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 3: Amendment for people.

441
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, So, essentially, the Thermin Amendment means that if you

442
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 6: have a drug distribution conviction, and so that can be

443
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 6: for marijuana, it can be for any illegal substance, you

444
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 6: do not have fair housing protection. So a landlord can

445
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 6: or a seller for that matter, can look at your

446
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 6: application or your offer the purchase and if they find out,

447
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,640
Speaker 6: whether through a background check or a Google search, that

448
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 6: you have a drug distribution conviction, again doesn't matter how

449
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 6: long ago it was, doesn't matter extenuating circumstances, they can

450
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 6: immediately summarily deny your application or refuse to sell you

451
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 6: their property, right right.

452
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 3: And like I know you said you're trying to see

453
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 3: any background. This is just like so strange because this

454
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 3: feels obviously this was the era where you know, the

455
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 3: federal government was finding all kinds of ways to incarce rate,

456
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 3: especially people of color during the crack epidemic and these

457
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 3: other various periods in the eighties, and this feels part

458
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 3: and parcel to it. But I'm like, is there no,

459
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 3: there was no like association of like concern landlords or

460
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 3: something that's like Senator Thurmont, I'm telling you, man, these

461
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 3: they're just setting up and they're serving the community in

462
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 3: a different way, not serving but serving the community. And

463
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 3: I just I can't have that in my in my

464
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 3: apartment building or whatever. It just came out of his

465
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 3: just brain.

466
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 6: Well. So, and this is really the infuriating piece of

467
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 6: this legislation for me is in the late eighties there

468
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 6: was literally a political strategy where Republicans would attach anti

469
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 6: drug legislation to completely you know, non relevant bills in

470
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 6: the hopes of getting Democrats to vote against it, and

471
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 6: then they would use on the campaign trail and so right, yeah,

472
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 6: so this was all just political bullshit, quite frankly, I mean,

473
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 6: And and that's what's caused me to dedicate the last

474
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 6: three years of my life to changing this legislation. Because

475
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:21,360
Speaker 6: the fact that my family was denied access to housing,

476
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 6: that my daughter was denied access to the school, that

477
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 6: she wanted to attend because of bullshit racist political games.

478
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 6: Is just it's it's something that I can't sit by

479
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 6: and just let that impact other families and kids in

480
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 6: this country.

481
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you talk about your kind of first hand

482
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: run in with the Therma Amendment?

483
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, so, you know, I'm sure we'll get into my background.

484
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 6: But I've been a homeowner for many years. But I

485
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 6: relocated to Allentown to lead an education organization, and so

486
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 6: at the time, my daughter was a rising ninth grader.

487
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 6: So we're looking at school districts. I mentioned she's a

488
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 6: tennis player, so we wanted a school that both had

489
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 6: good academics and a strong tennis program. We identified a community,

490
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 6: found a town home, and said, Okay, we'll rent this.

491
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 6: At no point did I even imagine that my application

492
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 6: could be denied, right, just because I mean, I haven't

493
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 6: had any justice involvement in twenty five years. Hell, what

494
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 6: I did at eighteen tells you nothing about who I

495
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 6: am as a middle aged bother. Like, it's just it's

496
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 6: not really relevant.

497
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 3: They should they shouldn't rent anything to anyone based on

498
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 3: who they were at eighteen. If that's if that's a standard,

499
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 3: then nobody have anything.

500
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, well especially if you're forty, you know, plus years old.

501
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 6: So yeah, So I get this call and the woman

502
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 6: is like, you know, mister Dowe. I said yeah, and

503
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 6: she said, well, unfortunately your application was denied. And I said,

504
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 6: excuse me, like I was so upset, I had just

505
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 6: set my Starbucks down. I'm like, what the wtf? You know, like,

506
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 6: are you fing kidding me? Right now? I said, this

507
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 6: is use of doll. I do you got the right

508
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 6: dove right right? It isn't roll doll? Yes, And she says,

509
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 6: you know, hey, look, I don't know what to tell you.

510
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 6: It's been denied. Will send you the letter. And they

511
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 6: basically gave me a number from Boston to call about

512
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 6: my denial in Allentown, Pennsylvania. And as you can imagine,

513
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 6: you know, after wasting a half hour on the phone,

514
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 6: I just gave up. I had to find somewhere else

515
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 6: to live. And because I had not anticipated being denied

516
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 6: access to that apartment, now, we had to scramble, right

517
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 6: because I'm committed to leading this organization, and we ended

518
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 6: up ended up securing a housing unit in a school

519
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 6: district that the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has designated his failing.

520
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 6: And so the thought that this guy who quite frankly,

521
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,479
Speaker 6: you know, we know he was racist, We know he

522
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 6: was a segregationist, we know he exploited vulnerable people for

523
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 6: his own personal political gain. The fact that this motherfucker

524
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 6: to this day was limiting opportunities for children like my own,

525
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 6: that it's still just talking about it just stiffens my

526
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 6: result to make sure this legislation is done once and

527
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 6: for all.

528
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, the question that occurred to me is like why

529
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: it seems specific that they're focusing on drug convictions, Like

530
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: there's not an equivalent amendment for other like more serious crimes, right,

531
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: Like there's not strong thermon didn't say murder or domestic

532
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: abusers or you know, which is something we know as

533
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: Americans because of you know, the epidemic of gun crime,

534
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: like domestic abuse is a predictor of future violence, whereas

535
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: drug distribution convictions don't have long term predictive value as

536
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: to whether renters would commit a violent crime in the

537
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: future or be bad tenants. That's according to Noel Porter,

538
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: director of government affairs for the National Housing Law Project.

539
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 6: So woman, by the way, So Noel, if you Noel

540
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 6: is a rock star, so I just have to give

541
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 6: her a shout out.

542
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: But it seems like the reason behind this is that

543
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: they are like significantly racially biased, right, the arrests for

544
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: drug distribution, Like in Wisconsin where you are from, black

545
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: people make up six percent of the population and fifty

546
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: three percent of drug convictions.

547
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, the disparities are outrageous. And think about this through

548
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 6: this mental exercise. You know, you're eighteen years old, you

549
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 6: get caught with an ounce of pot, you know, back

550
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,479
Speaker 6: in you know, when I was nineteen ninety seven. Is

551
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 6: that distribution or is that possession?

552
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah, exactly, Yeah, the amounts that were.

553
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 6: It's really quite frankly, going to depend on how good

554
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 6: is your lawyer, how well connected are you? Right, Because

555
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 6: it's truly this gray and fuzzy line. And so if

556
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 6: you're poor, you're likely to have been charged with a distribution.

557
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 6: If you have resources, that was likely reduced down to

558
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 6: a simple possession charge. And that difference, right, that subjectivity

559
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 6: is the difference between losing your fair housing protections for

560
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 6: the rest of your natural life. It's just crazy.

561
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,959
Speaker 1: Whereas like with murder, they can't they don't they they

562
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: can't go easy on white murderers.

563
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 3: A murderer could like in this adicts couldn't have murdered

564
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 3: be like I'm taking you to court. You can't keep

565
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 3: me out of this place because I'm a murder you know.

566
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 6: That's that's exact. Had had my conviction been for murder,

567
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 6: I could have sued that housing developer for refusing to

568
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 6: rent to me and my family.

569
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 3: Yea, that you had there was technically some kind of

570
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 3: legal recourse or this was like I'm sorry, it's not

571
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 3: a protected category, so you have no protections here under

572
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 3: the law, so you may have to go to where

573
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 3: they are willing to rent to people like you. Which

574
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 3: again this brings back this whole idea of redlining and

575
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 3: segregation and like you know, I meant like we're talking

576
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 3: about strom Thurman, like this guy did. He betted all

577
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty four to try and stop like the

578
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,479
Speaker 3: civil rights like he did philipbustered. He really tried, and

579
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 3: that you know, the precipitated his switch to switching parties

580
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 3: because of that and because he was so dedicated to

581
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 3: creating this like overtly segregated America. But with these kinds

582
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 3: of like with this amendment, it feels like kind of

583
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 3: heat like that he won. You know what I mean

584
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 3: by framing this this rule around drug dealers was just

585
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 3: coded language, just very obviously coded language. He found like

586
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 3: a somewhat nuanced way to keep the people out of

587
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 3: the places he feels they shouldn't be to begin with.

588
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 3: And we talk a lot about on the show about how,

589
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 3: you know, chattle slavery has always found a way to

590
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 3: morph into these other oppressive systems, and they all there's

591
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 3: there's always some form of control that can be exercised

592
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 3: over oppressed groups, especially people of color in this country.

593
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 3: And you know, with people getting kept out of affordable

594
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 3: housing because of a prior charge, they've they've created a

595
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 3: system that traps people not necessarily physically but in a

596
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 3: way physically because you're limited to where you can live,

597
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: but by excluding them from the things that allow people

598
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: to improve their situation, like building credit or these other things.

599
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 3: Can you kind of talk to me about how like

600
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 3: like how this how you get stuck like sort of

601
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 3: how this very specific form of redlining or segregation keeps

602
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 3: people stuck like the the like at that point, it's like,

603
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but your your chances of upward mobility are

604
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 3: pretty much gone or very very much diminished.

605
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 6: Well, community matters, right, context matters. We know that in

606
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 6: so you know, take an example of you find an apartment,

607
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 6: you've been living there safe for five years. Well, if

608
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 6: you've lived anywhere for the last five years, your rent

609
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 6: has probably went from twelve hundred to two thousand dollars

610
00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,959
Speaker 6: over the last five years. I don't care where you live.

611
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 6: So if your and of course your income hasn't matched

612
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 6: that increase, and so one way you would try to

613
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 6: manage that is you'd move to a less expensive rental unit. Well,

614
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 6: if where you can live is limited, oftentimes you're stuck.

615
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 6: You don't have the option to try to find a

616
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 6: different rental unit that would maybe cost less. And so

617
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 6: that means because you're paying this exorbit rent to your

618
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 6: point you can't maybe stay on top of some of

619
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 6: your other bills, you can increase your credit score and

620
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 6: ultimately put yourself in a position to purchase a property.

621
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 6: Or in a case like mine, I had to send

622
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 6: my daughter to a private school, so our family had

623
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 6: to make sacrifices. I had to refrain from contributing to

624
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 6: my retirement account and put a god awful expensive private

625
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,239
Speaker 6: school bill, but I had no choice, right, and so

626
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 6: on so many levels. If you don't have the ability

627
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 6: to choose where you live based on market values and

628
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 6: measures of risk, but instead just someone's perceived risk of

629
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 6: who you are because of a past conviction, you're just

630
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 6: not going to be able to access to communities that

631
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 6: are going to best help you. Ribe in a broader context.

632
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: You know, Miles mentioned the ways that chattel slavery kind

633
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: of morphs into different institutions in the modern world, and

634
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: you know, we've specifically talked a lot about it morphing

635
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: into you know, the carceral human caging system. I just

636
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: want to because you know you're being targeted. You know,

637
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: in the recent past, you spent time in prison and

638
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: got out and like really rebuilt your life in a

639
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: way that feels like, you know, the odds were stacked

640
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: against you so much, and that like just I think

641
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: having a better idea of like what you were able

642
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: to do helped helps just like kind of really drive

643
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: home how this specific amendment is a total fuck you

644
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: to people and just like complete, wildly unjust. But can

645
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 1: you talk about just like how you built yourself coming

646
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: out of prison.

647
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, I've been incredibly fortunate even when I

648
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 6: was behind bars. Actually, my journey to a better life

649
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 6: started behind bars. I had this chance encounter with a

650
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 6: guy who was in the Wisconsin prison system for defrauding

651
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 6: the Kohlder Corporation. And so you should never defraud anyone,

652
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 6: but you sure the hell don't want to defraud a

653
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 6: company that has a town named after it. So you know,

654
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 6: this guy brilliant, you know, master's degree in engineering from

655
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 6: the Northeast. So he's into a Wisconsin prison system with me,

656
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 6: and he taught me how to program computers. And so

657
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 6: when I came home, was very fortunate, you know, was

658
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 6: able to work my way into some development roles and

659
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 6: Fortune five hundred companies. You know, I've worked on three continents.

660
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 6: I've built software in India, in Africa. I had a

661
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 6: fellowship from Google. I served as president of Wisconsin's largest

662
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 6: trade association. I had a full scholarship to Princeton University

663
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 6: for graduate school. You don't just really have been incredibly

664
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 6: fortunate and have done so many things that tells you

665
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 6: who I am today. All of those things I just

666
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 6: noted tell you more about me today than my conviction

667
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 6: from when I was eighteen years old.

668
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 3: Yeah sure, yeah, sure, right, And because your story is

669
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 3: far from the norm, it's you know, like quite an

670
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 3: exceptional case, like that is not the norm for people

671
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 3: re entering after being incarcerated, Like and if it's that

672
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 3: difficult for you, that's exactly right, someone who can point

673
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 3: to all these bona fides like I've been educated in

674
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 3: the IVY League, I've been working like very consistent jobs,

675
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 3: I've been successful, that the chances for anyone else who

676
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 3: go back to reduced opportunity, lack of opportunity and don't

677
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 3: have that kind of upper mobility, then it truly just

678
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 3: does become this thing like, well, now you're back in

679
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 3: the neighborhood where you were doing dirt and your only

680
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 3: options are to do dirt. And I think there's also

681
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 3: like even when we look at when we have these conversations,

682
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 3: we still don't we're still not able to look at

683
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 3: things like drug dealing as as a form of like

684
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 3: lack of financial recourse for people like no one is

685
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 3: dealing drugs because they're like, you know what, I always

686
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 3: wanted to deal drugs, you know what I mean, like

687
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 3: just something I wanted to do.

688
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: I had the offer from Google. And also.

689
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 3: I was like, no, man, the block needs me. I

690
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 3: wanted to be one of them boys, you know what

691
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 3: I mean, that one of these Google people. But you know,

692
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 3: like that, we don't actually we never look at sort

693
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 3: of things like survival crime too in a certain context

694
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 3: and be able to extend empathy in those situations. Obviously

695
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 3: violent crime can be a completely different thing. But when

696
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 3: you look at things like this, like most people, especially

697
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 3: people who have dabbled in it, they have very similar

698
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 3: stories of my back was to a wall. If I

699
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 3: just move this thing from point A to point B,

700
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 3: or I let somebody stat something at my house and

701
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 3: then I somehow a bust happened and it completely ruined

702
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 3: my life. That these people aren't coming at it from

703
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 3: being wanting having some kind of like sociopathic desire to

704
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 3: to break the law.

705
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 6: That's a great point. That's that's that's a great point.

706
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 6: And all of that nuance is missed, right, That's that's

707
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 6: that's the most frustrating piece of this. And you know

708
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 6: what keeps me motivated every day is because this has

709
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 6: been a slog. I mean, changing federal legislation is a slog, right,

710
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 6: And what keeps me motivated is that there are literally

711
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 6: tens of thousands of people right now in this country

712
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 6: who were in my situation but didn't have an alternative

713
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 6: option for their family, right. You know that that's just wrong,

714
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 6: and that's honestly what keeps me motivated every day to

715
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 6: get this over the finish line.

716
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well we should take one more break

717
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: and we'll come back, and we're back, and so, you know,

718
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: this is one way that I feel like redlining is

719
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: still kind of that it's like a neo redlining that's

720
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: still happening today. We've talked, like there's been reporting in

721
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,959
Speaker 1: the past decades about you know, real estate agents sort

722
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: of being an informal barrier to you know, black families

723
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: moving into certain parts of towns, engaging informally and discriminatory practices.

724
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: But what have you seen how what are the other

725
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: ways that you see kind of of redlining still upheld

726
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 1: even though it's technically illegal.

727
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a that's a great question. And I have

728
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,760
Speaker 6: a buddy who's very supportive of this work that I'm doing.

729
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 6: But he he leads the National Association of Real Estate

730
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 6: Brokers and it's basically like the trade association for Black realtors,

731
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 6: and he leads the Milwaukee chapter, and you know, I

732
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 6: was talking to him about this work guy I'm doing,

733
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 6: and he said, you know, I remember when I got

734
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 6: out of prison. How you know I would have to

735
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 6: pay extra fees if I wanted to rent an apartment

736
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 6: solely because of a past conviction. And that was one

737
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 6: way to kind of it was a barrier for him

738
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 6: because he'd have to put up like two times the

739
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 6: security deposit, and he didn't have that type of money,

740
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 6: so that particular apartment wouldn't be available to him. Or

741
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 6: you know, he submitted an offer when he became a

742
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 6: real estate investor. You know, he submitted an offer to

743
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 6: a you know, well to do area, and with everyone's

744
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,720
Speaker 6: information public and online, you know, he noticed several times

745
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,720
Speaker 6: he just did not get a response from the seller

746
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 6: about his offer, and two weeks later there's an accepted

747
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 6: offer on the property. So I mean, it's it's an

748
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 6: unnecessary tool that lends itself to abuse, either by people

749
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 6: who really have ill intentions or just people who are

750
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 6: who are clueless and honestly are unwittingly perpetuating you know,

751
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 6: these very systemic disadvantage that disadvantages that we've been talking about.

752
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 3: What's kind of been the biggest hurdle in terms of

753
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 3: because I know, like you know, I've worked in politics,

754
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 3: and on the state level, there's things like ballot initiatives

755
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 3: you can do to try and change laws and regulations

756
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 3: and things like that, but like doing it on a

757
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 3: federal level, what's been I mean, aside from trying to

758
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 3: do away with something that has been like the cause

759
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 3: of so much pain for people but is seen as

760
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 3: a norm, what's kind of been like the hardest sort

761
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 3: of well, the hardest part about the process in terms

762
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 3: of trying to get people to understand like this isn't

763
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 3: necessary and there's something actually need to move past because

764
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 3: it's causing soone's damage.

765
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I think it's just getting visibility on this issue.

766
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 6: And that's why I'm so appreciative of you guys for

767
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 6: highlighting this issue on your platform, because here's the reality.

768
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 6: You'll never convince me that if the general public was

769
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 6: aware that current housing policy in this country, at least

770
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 6: part of it is being directed by someone like strom

771
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 6: Thurman and these are the outcomes of this housing policy,

772
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 6: that folks would just.

773
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 3: Be like, yeah, that makes sense, let's.

774
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 6: Keep that in place, right, we're good here, exactly no

775
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 6: reason to reform that. And so it's really this has

776
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 6: been going on for almost forty years because of who

777
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 6: it is impacts, right, it impacts the most vulnerable people,

778
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 6: and you said it yourself. My experience is an outlier.

779
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 6: And so they just happen to, quite frankly, do it

780
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 6: to the wrong person who's prepared to go all in

781
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 6: on this shit and do whatever it takes to change

782
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 6: this legislation. But if for the average person who can

783
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 6: invest this type of time and resources to do this stuff,

784
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 6: and so's it just becomes the status quo. And so

785
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 6: the biggest challenge has been raising the visibility of this

786
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 6: issue so that folks understand why they can care. Because

787
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 6: I guarantee you the folks who are listening to this

788
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 6: right now, they're not going to be for it. And

789
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 6: so I encourage them to reach out to me and

790
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 6: figure out how can they support this effort to get

791
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 6: their legislators to do something and repeal this useless amendment.

792
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 3: No, yeah, I think I think a lot of listeners

793
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 3: are probably definitely sympathetic towards that, no doubt and use

794
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 3: of what would you say, you know, just to for

795
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 3: something for people to keep in mind when they hear

796
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 3: about because I think, like you know, when people hear

797
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 3: about someone who is in prison is going to move

798
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 3: in you know, right, we have this sort of like

799
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 3: sort of inbuilt response that because I like you. Sadly,

800
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 3: even though we pretend our carcial system is about like

801
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 3: rehabilitation or anything, it really isn't. It's just it's like

802
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 3: a revolving door. What do you think? What what are

803
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,359
Speaker 3: sort of the obstacles that you challenge people to sort

804
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 3: of challenge their own thinking when think like when being

805
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 3: confronted in a situation like this, or someone says, oh,

806
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 3: I couldn't rent to this person they were a drug dealer,

807
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 3: and then they say, oh, well, good good, that's that's good.

808
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 3: You good good, you stopped that from happening. What sort

809
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 3: of the shift that you feel people need to make

810
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 3: and able to sort of look at the world with

811
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 3: a bit of a more equitable lens in this in

812
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 3: this context.

813
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 6: Well, someone who would say something like that, I don't

814
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 6: know what the hell I would say to that person,

815
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 6: but but I would say that, look, this criminal legal

816
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 6: system has grown exponentially, and so it's hard to find

817
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 6: somebody who doesn't have some type of tangential connection to

818
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 6: the system. And I think that's you know, as people

819
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,439
Speaker 6: have that connection, I think they develop the empathy. You'll

820
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 6: never convince me you have to enforce the Thermin Amendment

821
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 6: to make money. That's bullshit. And I'll call it as

822
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 6: it is because I know that's not true. And so

823
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 6: I mean, folks have to just because you can do it.

824
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,280
Speaker 6: I mean, this is the problem. This is exactly what happens.

825
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 6: You're a landlord. You go to your attorney and say, hey, look,

826
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 6: I need to develop my screen screening criteria and I

827
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 6: don't want to run a foul of the Fair Housing Act,

828
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 6: right that. This is what happens. Your attorney is going

829
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 6: to do their job and they're going to say, Okay,

830
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 6: you can legally do these things. You can deny all

831
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 6: applications with a drug distribution conviction. Okay, boom, let's do that,

832
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 6: and for all these other criminal classifications, this is what

833
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 6: you need to do. Okay, fine, Right, So as long

834
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 6: as this is legal, this is going to be a problem.

835
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 6: And that is why we have to repeal the Thermin

836
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 6: Amendment in one hundred and eighteenth Congress.

837
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 4: M Yeah, Actually, that's the best place to leave it.

838
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 4: Let's just leave it done, all right.

839
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much, YUSUF doll for joining us

840
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 1: and talking about your work. Where can people find you?

841
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 1: Follow you all that good stuff and learn more about

842
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: how to help you in your fight to overturn the

843
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: Thermon Amendment.

844
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, so I'm on Twitter, Instagram, USUF dial, and I

845
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 6: have a website thermin amendment dot org. Again, thermin amendment

846
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 6: dot org. You can connect with me on that platform

847
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 6: as well.

848
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: And that's th h U R M O N D

849
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: amendment not like Uma Thurman or Thurmon months and use

850
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 1: of doll is y U s U F D A

851
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: h L.

852
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 6: Yes, Okay, you're looking. Is there a work of media

853
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,399
Speaker 6: that you've been enjoying work of media that I've been

854
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 6: in be a tweet? It can be well okay, okay,

855
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 6: I have to put it out there. So we just

856
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 6: started binge while watching a ninety Day Fiance. Yeah, yeah,

857
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 6: the ninety days before though. I think it's a different

858
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 6: program than my daughter. I only watch this stuff because

859
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 6: of my daughter. She's a total like trash reality TV first.

860
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 3: And so I get there.

861
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 6: Anyways, that stuff is pretty hilarious. So I'm into that

862
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 6: right now.

863
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 4: Amazing, perfect answer.

864
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: Miles, where can people find you and what is the

865
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: work media you've been?

866
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 3: You can find me at Miles of Gray wherever they

867
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 3: got the at symbol. You can also find Jack and

868
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 3: I on our basketball podcast with the NBA called Miles

869
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 3: and Jack on Mad Boosti's and also you can find

870
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 3: me on my ninety Day Fiance podcast for twenty Day

871
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 3: Fiance with Sophia Alexandra because you know what some of

872
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 3: us like to play in the trash too. You know,

873
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 3: some of us were of the trash and I love

874
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,800
Speaker 3: it with all my being. And yeah, that's where you

875
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 3: can find me in the pod space thing of work

876
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 3: in media, like this Korean reality show Physical one hundred

877
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 3: is back with a new season on Netflix, and again

878
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 3: as someone who is always wowed by people who have

879
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 3: that kind of discipline with their fitness, I'm there's just

880
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 3: no short shortage of like just moments when I watch

881
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 3: it show, I'm like, I could, I would know, I'm

882
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:13,479
Speaker 3: just not gonna do that, but I like to watch

883
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 3: other people suffer and use their big muscular bodies and

884
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 3: doing stuff. So anyway, yeah, that's what I'm watching Physical

885
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 3: one hundred amazing.

886
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien

887
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: tweet I've been enjoying Noah garfin Gold tweeted, you have

888
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: to eat so many vegetables or you will die. That's okay.

889
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 1: Everyone likes potatoes. Oh yeah, there is one that doesn't

890
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: count and it is potatoes. And then Troy Johnson underscore.

891
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: Troy Johnson on Twitter tweeted, the black jelly bean is

892
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: the best bean made of corn syrup, yak ormeister, eyeshadow,

893
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: and cure songs. Flavor stays in your mouth until Jesus

894
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 1: comes back. Supreme. You can find us on Twitter at

895
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 1: daily Zeitgeist. Where at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram, we

896
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: have a Facebook fan page and a website daily zeikeis

897
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 1: dot com, where we post our episodes and our footnotes

898
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: where we link off to the information that we talked

899
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 1: about in today's episode, as well as a song that

900
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 1: we think you might enjoy. Miles, what song do you

901
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: think people might enjoy? Yes?

902
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 3: A song, Yes, a song. This track just I just

903
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 3: want to play a little bit of you know, like

904
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 3: some psych indie rock. This is crumb ce U r

905
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 3: NB and their new track A Mama, A m A

906
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 3: m A.

907
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 6: You guessed it.

908
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 3: Right, and I just like the you know it just

909
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 3: it just got again. When I listened to like indie rock,

910
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 3: the rhythm sections gotta be on point. I gotta like

911
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 3: what the drummer's doing, I gotta like what the basis

912
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 3: is doing, and I like what they're doing on this track.

913
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 3: So this is a A Mama by Crumb.

914
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: All right, we will link off to that in the footnotes.

915
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 1: The Daily Zi is the production of iHeartRadio. For more

916
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the heart Radio Wrap

917
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: Apple podcast. Wherever you listen to your favorite shows, that

918
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: is gonna do it for us this morning, back this

919
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: afternoon to tell you what is trend thing and we'll

920
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 1: talk to you all then Bye bye bye yeah