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Speaker 1: Hey Discos, need a little more Disgraceland in your life?

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Speaker 1: Just a touch to get you through?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, me too.

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Speaker 1: This is the podcast that comes after the podcast. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Disgraceland, the after party. Welcome to the Disgraceland bonus episode,

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Speaker 1: a little thing we like to call the after party.

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Speaker 1: This is the show after the show, the party after

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Speaker 1: the party, the bridge to get you from one full

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Speaker 1: episode of Disgraceland to the other, the backyard to dig

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Speaker 1: into the dirt. Our mission to uncover the truth, to

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Speaker 1: confront the myth, to reclaim the story. On this bonus episode,

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Speaker 1: on the heels of our Alice Cooper story, we're discussing

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Speaker 1: true evil in rock and roll history. Venoms, Kronos just died,

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Speaker 1: and are there any real Satanists left in rock and roll?

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Speaker 1: We're here to answer that question and also to get into,

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Speaker 1: you know, were there any to begin with? We don't know. Plus,

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Speaker 1: which artists from music history have had the greatest second acts?

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Speaker 1: We get into the music that has inspired and confronted

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Speaker 1: your faith with your emails, comments, DMs, and as always,

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of Rosie. This is the podcast for

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Speaker 1: the musically obsessed, the outsiders, the independent thinkers who know

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Speaker 1: that the best history is the history that gets buried

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Speaker 1: in Disgraceland is where I tell the stories you'll end

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Speaker 1: up telling someone else. All right, Discos, let's get into it.

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Speaker 1: All right, Discos, welcome into the after party. I've got

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Speaker 1: good and evil on the mind this week, just like

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Speaker 1: I did last week. It's partly thematic. It's partly because

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Speaker 1: of the subjects we're discussing here in Disgraceland, talking about

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Speaker 1: Alice Cooper this week, talking about Tim Lambesis from As

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Speaker 1: I Lay Dying the week before. It's also Halloween, so

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Speaker 1: I'm watching American Horror Story. I just read The Exorcist,

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Speaker 1: re-read it, I should say. I'm kind of watching The

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Speaker 1: Exorcist again, low-key in the background. So I've got good

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Speaker 1: and evil on the brain. And when I think about

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Speaker 1: Alice Cooper this week's episode subject, obviously a musician who

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Speaker 1: dealt with dark themes. Some might even say the occult,

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Speaker 1: but I would challenge that. Alice Cooper... a quote-unquote shock rocker,

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Speaker 1: and then you have somebody like Tim Lambesis, who's a

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Speaker 1: quote-unquote Christian metal artist. You got Alice Cooper, who's dealing

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Speaker 1: with these dark themes, and who I mentioned last week,

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Speaker 1: I believe, is an actual Christian. You got Tim Lambesis,

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Speaker 1: who proclaims to be a Christian and a metalhead, and

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Speaker 1: he's not. He's a charlatan. So there's an interesting dynamic

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Speaker 1: here at play between the two of these guys, and

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Speaker 1: we've got them back to back this week. Another thing

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Speaker 1: that has me think of this is I sat down

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Speaker 1: and I opened up my paper on Sunday, and I

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Speaker 1: want to read you this headline. Conrad Lamp, pusher of

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Speaker 1: heavy metal to its darkest demonic reaches, 63. Reaches, 63.

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Speaker 1: That's not the point. The point is this is Kronos.

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Speaker 1: This is from the New York Times, Sunday's New York Times.

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Speaker 1: This is Kronos from the band Venom. died dead at

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Speaker 1: the age of 63. Venom, known as the band that

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Speaker 1: kind of started it all when it comes to all

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Speaker 1: of the heavy metal offshoots. Black metal, death metal, speed metal, thrash.

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Speaker 1: Venom is kind of the big bang. And unlike Slayer

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Speaker 1: and Metallica and Exodus and Overkill and Unlike the black

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Speaker 1: metal bands that came after Venom, black metal is actually

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Speaker 1: named after a Venom song. The genre is named after

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Speaker 1: a Venom song. That's how influential Venom was. Unlike these

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Speaker 1: other artists that I just mentioned from the sort of

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Speaker 1: metal subgenres, Venom professed to have a real love of Satan. Now,

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Speaker 1: what I'm trying to figure out is, do I believe that?

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Speaker 1: It's funny. I talked about this in the rap party

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Speaker 1: with Zeth. When Venom were making their way over to America,

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Speaker 1: all the New York hardcore kids and the artsy avant-garde

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Speaker 1: New York scene got hip to them. I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: very young Beastie Boys and very young Thurston Moore. And

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Speaker 1: they didn't know what to make of them. They kind

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Speaker 1: of thought that they were like a like ironic about

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Speaker 1: what they were doing, about their heavy metal. And then

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Speaker 1: of course they show up to play in New Jersey

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Speaker 1: or New York or wherever for the first time. And

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Speaker 1: Mike D from the Beasties and Thurston Moore and those

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Speaker 1: guys are like, holy shit, these guys are serious. So

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Speaker 1: Venom the band has this weird kind of dichotomy in

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Speaker 1: and of itself where you're kind of like, what the fuck?

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Speaker 1: This is real? It's so over the top that it's

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Speaker 1: hard to take serious. But this is from the New

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Speaker 1: York Times obituary on Kronos. It says, while bands like

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Speaker 1: Black Sabbath and Motley Crue occasionally invoked Lucifer in their lyrics,

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Speaker 1: Venom summoned the devil so often that he might as

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Speaker 1: well have been sitting in on keyboards. A core text

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Speaker 1: for the group was the Satanic Bible by the Church

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Speaker 1: of Satan founder Anton LaVey. Goes on to say, this

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Speaker 1: is a quote from Kronos, says, we take it very seriously, Mr.

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Speaker 1: Lance said of the dark arts in a 1982 interview. Now,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, as I said, that I believe Kronos

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Speaker 1: and Venom. Here's what I want to understand. How many

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Speaker 1: of these artists, these musicians, these rock stars who dabbled

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Speaker 1: in in Satan and the dark arts and the occult

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Speaker 1: thematically with their music, who were protested by the sort

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Speaker 1: of moral majority at the time. It doesn't really exist anymore,

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Speaker 1: but you know what I'm talking about, the Tipper Gores

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Speaker 1: of the world and the evangelical preachers and all the

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Speaker 1: people in the 80s and 90s who were getting their

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Speaker 1: panties in a bunch over rock and roll. And they

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Speaker 1: were protesting certain artists. Venom was on the Filthy 15 list,

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Speaker 1: Tipper Gore's original list, along with Prince's, Darwin, Nicki, and

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Speaker 1: a bunch of other ones. who among those metal acts

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Speaker 1: or any sort of rock and roll band that dabbled, again,

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Speaker 1: with Satanism and the dark arts, who among them were serious?

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Speaker 1: I'm asking this question because as I think about it,

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Speaker 1: I don't think any of them were serious. Even Venom,

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Speaker 1: though I'm not sure about Venom. They may have been

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Speaker 1: the only one. It deserves further research. But this thing

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Speaker 1: is interesting to unpack right now. And what I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about is like, The subject matter here in Disgrace Line

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Speaker 1: gets incredibly dark, especially the Rewind episodes we have coming

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Speaker 1: this week with ACDC. The first one on Richard Ramirez,

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Speaker 1: the Night Stalker. That's kind of what started my thinking

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Speaker 1: along these lines years ago. This guy, this killer, this

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Speaker 1: serial killer was the definition of evil, of an evil person,

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Speaker 1: like Hitler-level evil. He obviously didn't have the stats that

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Speaker 1: Hitler put up. But his darkness came from a similar place.

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Speaker 1: He was a really, really fucked up evil individual. And

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Speaker 1: when you look at, again, the protestations of the moral

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Speaker 1: majority around rock and roll and so-called Satanists and heavy metal...

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Speaker 1: they're coming at this from the point of view that

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Speaker 1: somebody like Kronos here or somebody like Ozzy Osbourne or

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Speaker 1: Alice Cooper is on the same level with somebody like

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Speaker 1: Richard Ramirez. They worry that that's where this is all going.

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Speaker 1: And that's another argument in and of itself. But I'm

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Speaker 1: more interested in looking at which among these artists from

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Speaker 1: music history have actually been evil. So let's unpack it.

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Speaker 1: The black metal guys, that's where my head goes first, right?

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Speaker 1: Varg Vikernes and Euronymous and Dead and all those guys.

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Speaker 1: I can go through each one of them and tell

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Speaker 1: you why I don't think they were actually evil, despite

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Speaker 1: the evil that they did, okay? I know that's a

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Speaker 1: very nuanced way of looking at it. But Varg Vikernes,

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Speaker 1: despite his modern day, current racist, fucking fascist, whatever Viking

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Speaker 1: shit that he's up to, I don't believe he's a Satanist.

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Speaker 1: That's my point. He may be evil for other reasons,

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Speaker 1: but I don't believe he is an evil Satanist. Ozzy Osbourne,

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Speaker 1: hell no. He was a Christian. Alice Cooper, we've already

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Speaker 1: established this Christian. Look at Slayer. When I first heard Slayer,

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Speaker 1: without knowing anything about them, if you told me these

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Speaker 1: guys were actual Satanists, I would have believed you. But

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Speaker 1: then you unpack it a little bit and you understand, no,

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Speaker 1: they're just commenting on this darkness from world history. And

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Speaker 1: Tom Araya, I mentioned this last week, Tom Araya is

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Speaker 1: a Catholic. Kirk and Rob from Metallica, I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 1: they're Christians. So all of these guys, not actually evil.

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Speaker 1: All of these musicians. Let's put Kronos from Venom aside.

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Speaker 1: We still don't know. I don't know. And again, I'm

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Speaker 1: qualifying evil. I'm trying to get at this question. Are

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Speaker 1: any of the satanic dark arts musicians actually evil? Actually

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Speaker 1: what people say they are? Now, of course, there's evil

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Speaker 1: musicians from music history. I just wrote, what, 7,000 words

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Speaker 1: on Jared Leto last week. And if what they say

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Speaker 1: about Jared Leto, I know he's an actor, but he's

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Speaker 1: a rock star as well. 30 Seconds to Mars is

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Speaker 1: a massive band, if you're not paying attention. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: paying attention. Huge band. If what they're saying about Jared

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Speaker 1: Leto is true, it is truly fucking evil. It is

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Speaker 1: truly dark what Reggie Watts is accused of having done

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Speaker 1: to his No. deceased ex-girlfriend. There's a long list of musicians,

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Speaker 1: especially in Disgraceland. Big Lurch, Michael Allig, who we had

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Speaker 1: in the archive in the rewind slot last week. I

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Speaker 1: knew Michael Allig a little bit. I got to know

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Speaker 1: him a little bit at the end of his life.

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Speaker 1: I had a couple phone conversations with him. I had

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Speaker 1: an ongoing text thread going with him. Did some truly

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Speaker 1: evil shit. Really horrific. The worst possible things you could imagine.

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Speaker 1: But was he staying up at night making sacrifices with goats?

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Speaker 1: And I know they're two different things. and I know

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of conflating them here, but I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: get at this question of like, are any of these

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Speaker 1: guys from music history who have been accused of Satanism

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Speaker 1: and of the dark arts, are any of them evil? And,

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Speaker 1: you know, I just feel like when I read this,

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Speaker 1: when I read this New York Times obituary on Kronos,

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Speaker 1: you know, New York Times is a fairly buttoned up organization.

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Speaker 1: And it's, This is a half-page obituary. They don't actually

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Speaker 1: say whether they believe that Kronos' satanic affinity is real.

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Speaker 1: They don't actually go there. They quote him, but again,

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Speaker 1: that quote's from 1982. Dude died at 63 years old

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Speaker 1: in 2026.

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 1: You know? And the band has to uphold a certain image.

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Speaker 1: I get that. What was the guy doing in his

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Speaker 1: spare time? Is he actually practicing the dark arts? And

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Speaker 1: it made me think, if I were a dark arts musician,

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Speaker 1: if I were an actual Satanist, if I truly cared

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Speaker 1: about putting evil into the world, the opposite of what

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Speaker 1: I actually care about, would I be out there on

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Speaker 1: my front foot talking about it? Or would I be

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Speaker 1: working behind the scenes? Like, I don't know, someone like

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Speaker 1: perhaps Jimmy Page. No, I'm kidding. Kind of. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's that whole thing about the devil, you know? What

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Speaker 1: is it? The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was

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Speaker 1: making people believe that he didn't exist. What's that from?

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Speaker 1: It's that Kevin Spacey movie, Usual Suspects. You know, that

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Speaker 1: was kind of my Jimmy Page take when I got

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Speaker 1: into the research on Jimmy Page. But I want to know.

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Speaker 1: Because I don't think the Kronos guy was actually an

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Speaker 1: evil Satanist. I don't. I think they dabbled in it

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Speaker 1: for image. They dabbled in it to have a sort

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Speaker 1: of niche to sell records, however you want to frame it.

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Speaker 1: You want to be that cynical about it. I don't believe, obviously,

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Speaker 1: that Alice Cooper was into all the shit that they

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Speaker 1: were worried he was into. I don't believe the same

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Speaker 1: can be said about, I don't believe Slayer were Satanists

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Speaker 1: or even the black metal guys. They're fucked up, sure, clearly,

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Speaker 1: completely fucked up. And all of them, dead, Euronymous, Varg,

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Speaker 1: they all had different reasons for doing the things, the

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Speaker 1: truly horrific things that they did. But I don't think, again,

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Speaker 1: I don't think Varg Vikunis is sitting up at night

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Speaker 1: making sacrifices to Lucifer. I think he's up at night

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Speaker 1: making peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for his kids to

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Speaker 1: take to school tomorrow, like the rest of us. So

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Speaker 1: the question remains, are there any musicians from music history

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Speaker 1: who are True Satanists. Truly evil.

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 1: If you know of any, I want to hear about it. 617-906-6638.

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Speaker 1: Voicemail and text. It's Halloween. We still got a couple

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Speaker 1: weeks left. We'll continue this conversation next week. Our Rewind

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Speaker 1: episodes coming in the feed this weekend on ACDC thematically

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Speaker 1: are going to work really well with this question. For

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Speaker 1: the reasons I mentioned before. I started thinking about this.

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking about it the last few days. And

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Speaker 1: when I woke up this morning, I knew that it

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Speaker 1: was what I was going to bring to the after

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Speaker 1: party today to talk to you all about. And I

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Speaker 1: texted Zeth. And I sort of flipped the question and

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Speaker 1: put it more in the realm of Hollywood. Are there

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Speaker 1: any filmmakers, Kenneth Anger, who else? These guys perhaps from

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Speaker 1: Europe from the 1960s. Any filmmakers who are truly evil?

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Speaker 1: Any films, besides the obvious possessed films like the whole

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Speaker 1: poltergeist thing, I think Creepshow is another one. Any other

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Speaker 1: films we don't know about that were truly demonic portals

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Speaker 1: that had been opened where horrific things happened to those involved?

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Speaker 1: And again, I'm not talking about filmmakers here necessarily who

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Speaker 1: were just bad dudes, Roman Polanski, et cetera. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about satanic filmmakers, okay?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That's what we're going to get into in the exclusive

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Speaker 1: section of today's after party. Go to disgrace and pod.com

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Speaker 1: to sign up, to become an after party member, to

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Speaker 1: hear that conversation and to unlock ad free listening as well. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Alice Cooper in the feed this week, coming up this weekend,

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Speaker 1: as mentioned, ACDC parts one and part two. I love

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Speaker 1: these episodes cause I fucking love ACDC man. And, um,

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Speaker 1: Like I said, the sort of Richard Ramirez Night Stalker piece.

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Speaker 1: This is our first episode on ACDC. Fascinating story. Really

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Speaker 1: get into the darkness of this guy and how it

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Speaker 1: related to ACDC's music and the treatment they got from

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Speaker 1: the media, which was completely insane. Probably my favorite music

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Speaker 1: from any episode. This and the Miles Davis episodes are–

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Speaker 1: I love the music. Jay-Z as well. This one though,

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Speaker 1: just really demonic music. I was super inspired by that

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Speaker 1: World War I movie, All Quiet on the Western Front,

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Speaker 1: that I had seen. And we actually used that to

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Speaker 1: inform the music in this episode, along with some Giorgio

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Speaker 1: Moroder and some sort of dark horror movie stuff. Really

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Speaker 1: proud of the music in the ACDC Part 1 episode.

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Speaker 1: Part 2 is a little bit different. It deals with

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Speaker 1: Phil Rudd's He troubles the sort of hired hitman stuff

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Speaker 1: that happened later in the career of ACDC and gets

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Speaker 1: into the murder of their manager as well. Really interesting.

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Speaker 1: Really dives into Malcolm's point of view a little more

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Speaker 1: fully in part two. I think you're going to dig

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Speaker 1: that as well. Anyways, those are coming up this weekend.

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Speaker 1: Next week, our episode on Reggie Watts. Can you believe it?

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Speaker 1: Is that true? Is that when that's happening? I have

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Speaker 1: to double check. Hold on one second. Let's see here.

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Speaker 1: Going to my little future programming doc here. Hold on.

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Speaker 1: Stay with me. Stay with me, guys. Yeah, Reggie Watts,

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Speaker 1: October 25th. God, it's already the end of October. This

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Speaker 1: Reggie Watts episode is a banger. It's one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite new episodes that we've done in the last few years.

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Speaker 1: The Reggie Watts story is completely fucked up, guys. Mainly

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Speaker 1: because it's one of these stories where the guy presents

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Speaker 1: himself as one thing, and if what they say about

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Speaker 1: him is true, he is completely something else. And the

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Speaker 1: accusations around him and the death of his ex-girlfriend, recent ex-girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: It came out in Rolling Stone. We get into that.

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Speaker 1: I do it all through the point of view of

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Speaker 1: Reggie's memoir, his autobiography. There's a lot of quotes in

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Speaker 1: that Rolling Stone expose that came out from people who

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Speaker 1: were friends of Catherine McCullough, Reggie Watts' ex-girlfriend. I've also

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Speaker 1: had people who know Reggie Watts quite well reach out

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Speaker 1: to me and just unsolicited offer me up information about

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Speaker 1: this dude. You know, drugs and psychedelia are at the

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Speaker 1: core of this story. So is sort of another theme

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Speaker 1: is the sort of Gen X 90s of it all.

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Speaker 1: And it's all made extra compelling by the fact that,

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Speaker 1: you know, whatever you think of this incident with Reggie

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Speaker 1: Watts and Catherine McCullough, you cannot deny the fact that

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Speaker 1: Reggie Watts, his talent is through the roof and he

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Speaker 1: is sort of a singular type of entertainer. From the

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Speaker 1: history of entertainment. So this is a fascinating story and

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Speaker 1: I'm really proud of the way it came together. I'm

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Speaker 1: proud of the work that the team did here. All

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Speaker 1: of us on the audio and the video side. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the video side. More on that later. But Reggie Watts

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Speaker 1: is coming up next week and I can't wait for

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Speaker 1: you to hear that. But like I said, Alice Cooper. Now,

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Speaker 1: a lot of rock stars checked themselves into rehab. Alice

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Speaker 1: Cooper checked himself into an insane asylum instead. At first,

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Speaker 1: he was just trying to get sober. But as he

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Speaker 1: got to know the other patients in the asylum, he

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Speaker 1: realized that the hospital is full of characters whose stories

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Speaker 1: were stranger than fiction. And he knew that he could

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Speaker 1: use this to his advantage. There was one dude in

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Speaker 1: there who talked incessantly about his dog. There was an L.A.

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Speaker 1: socialite who seemed determined to destroy her own life. A

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Speaker 1: Vietnam vet was haunted by the men that he killed.

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Speaker 1: Alice Cooper, writer that he is, he documented it all.

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Speaker 1: He carried a pen and paper everywhere that he went

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Speaker 1: in the asylum, even into the padded cell. Not because

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Speaker 1: he'd been sent there or anything, but because it was

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Speaker 1: a quiet place where he could write lyrics. And that's

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Speaker 1: what he was doing. He was putting together his next record.

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Speaker 1: The result was From the Inside, a concept album built

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Speaker 1: around the lives of the patients that Alice had encountered

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Speaker 1: inside that asylum. all made possible by his unorthodox decision

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Speaker 1: to get sober in there. So that is some of

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Speaker 1: what's in the Alice Cooper episode for you guys this week.

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Speaker 1: If you have not heard it, I highly recommend you

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Speaker 1: do so. Also going to get into his battle with

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Speaker 1: a demon. All right. Who doesn't like that in the

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Speaker 1: Halloween season? That's top of your feed right now. And

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Speaker 1: like I said, come up next in your feed right

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Speaker 1: after that. In the rewind slot, we've got two ACDC episodes. Now, 1985,

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Speaker 1: there was a serial killer. He was out in Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles and he left his ACDC hat at the scene

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Speaker 1: of the murder that he had just committed. ACDC was

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Speaker 1: not only your favorite band, it was also the serial

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Speaker 1: killer's favorite band as well. The killer believed that Satan

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Speaker 1: spoke to him through ACDC's songs. He listened to Highway

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Speaker 1: to Hell. He recited the lyrics to Night Prowler. as

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Speaker 1: he was hunting his victims. He was soundtracking his murders

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Speaker 1: with ACDC, quite literally. The killer was Richard Ramirez, aka

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Speaker 1: the Night Stalker. But the connection between ACDC and the

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Speaker 1: Night Stalker went way beyond music. Now, on the cover

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Speaker 1: of Highway to Hell, you can see Bon Scott in

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Speaker 1: that iconic photo. He's wearing a pentagram around his neck.

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Speaker 1: Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker, he carved a pentagram into

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Speaker 1: one of the victim's bodies. He painted a pentagram in

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Speaker 1: blood on another victim's wall, and he carved a pentagram

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Speaker 1: into the palm of his own hand. And when the

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Speaker 1: media discovered the connection between the killer and the band

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Speaker 1: because of this hat, ACDC was held at fault by

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Speaker 1: the press for supposedly influencing the Night Stalker murders. The press,

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Speaker 1: as is often the case, was being foolish and more

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Speaker 1: concerned with crafting a scary narrative to sell newspapers. than

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Speaker 1: they were in telling the truth. Now, the truth was

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Speaker 1: that ACDC was just one of the greatest rock and

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Speaker 1: roll bands on the planet. Lots of people loved their music,

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Speaker 1: even serial killers. Yes, but the truth did not matter.

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Speaker 1: The narrative is what mattered to the media. The media

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Speaker 1: coverage transformed the Night Stalker, Richard Ramirez, who kind of

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Speaker 1: looked like ACDC's former and recently deceased singer, Bon Scott.

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Speaker 1: The media coverage transformed Richard Ramirez into a kind of

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Speaker 1: demonic rock star. Women wrote to him, pledging their love

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Speaker 1: to him. They sent him nudes. They hung around the

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Speaker 1: courtroom trying to get a glimpse of him while he

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Speaker 1: was on trial. For a moment, the courtroom stage there,

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Speaker 1: it allowed Richard Ramirez to fill the void left by

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Speaker 1: Bon Scott and the Night Stalker had become the rock star,

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Speaker 1: at least figuratively speaking. So perhaps, as Bon Scott sang

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Speaker 1: in 1977, hell ain't a bad place to be. To

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Speaker 1: hear the full ACDC story and the connection to Richard Ramirez,

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Speaker 1: you got to listen to the Rewind episodes this weekend, people.

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Speaker 3: All right?

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Speaker 1: Get in there. Now, is Reggie Watts the dude your

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Speaker 1: mother warned you and your sister about? That's what we're

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out next week in the Reggie Watts episode.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. You like me? You got sisters? Or

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Speaker 1: perhaps you're not like me at all, or you are,

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Speaker 1: but you're a woman. And my mom was always, I

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Speaker 1: can just remember her warning my sisters constantly, stay away

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Speaker 1: from this dude, stay away from that dude. And that's

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Speaker 1: what made me, that's sort of the lens that I

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Speaker 1: look at this Reggie Watts story because he presents so differently.

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Speaker 1: Is Reggie Watts the dude your mother warned you and

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Speaker 1: or your sister about? Reggie Watts presents himself as the

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Speaker 1: oversized teddy bear whose absurdist comedy and music skyrocketed him

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Speaker 1: to Comedy Bang Bang fame and then to become the

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Speaker 1: band leader on James Corden's Late Late Show. As I

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Speaker 1: mentioned before, though, there are those who accuse him of

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Speaker 1: pushing his ex-girlfriend, Catherine McCullough, into heavy drug use and

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Speaker 1: then eventually abandoning her during a mental health crisis that

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Speaker 1: they believe led to her suicide. Now, Reggie Watts is

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Speaker 1: a Gen X kid, okay? Like me, like a lot

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Speaker 1: of you. He grew up worshiping John Hughes films. You

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Speaker 1: can read about that in his autobiography, in his memoir.

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Speaker 1: On the surface, Reggie Watts is lovable, okay? Like Ferris Bueller,

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Speaker 1: like Ducky. But I want to know, is he more

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Speaker 1: like The Breakfast Club's Johnny Bender? John Bender. I call

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Speaker 1: him Johnny Bender. I believe his actual character name is

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Speaker 1: John Bender. You know who I'm talking about. The bad dude.

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Speaker 1: The one that your mom warned you about. But perhaps,

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Speaker 1: as we unpack in this episode, he's more like a

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Speaker 1: different 80s character. A different, complex, sinister character from the 1980s.

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Speaker 1: We're going to unpack the dark past of Reggie Watts

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Speaker 1: and the accusations against him in this upcoming episode of

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Speaker 1: Disgraceland coming next week. I cannot wait. for you to

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Speaker 1: hear that. And that's going to be our question of

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Speaker 1: the week for next week as well. And you're listening

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Speaker 1: to the episode. I want to know, what do you think?

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Speaker 1: Is Reggie Watts the dude your mom warned you and

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Speaker 1: or your sister about? Or do we have it wrong?

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Speaker 1: Do his accusers have it wrong? Do we got it

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Speaker 1: all wrong with this guy? Do I have it all wrong?

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Speaker 1: I think you can tell which way I'm leaning. Anyways,

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Speaker 1: we're going to get into all that. Check it out.

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Speaker 1: All right, guys, I'm going to take a quick break.

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Speaker 1: back after this with some exciting news and also going

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Speaker 1: to get into your DMs, your phone calls, your text,

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Speaker 1: your voice messages, emails, all that coming up right after this.

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Speaker 1: All right, guys, we are back. And I am psyched

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Speaker 1: this week because we, all of us, we won three

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Speaker 1: Signal Awards. All right. The Signal Awards are a big

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Speaker 1: deal in the podcast industry. Don't ask me why. They

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Speaker 1: just are. That's what people tell me. And this shit matters.

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Speaker 1: Matters for a lot of reasons. Mostly, it matters because

420
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,700
Speaker 1: you love this show. You show up for the show

421
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,420
Speaker 1: every week. And the show has been recognized not just

422
00:25:52,460 --> 00:25:56,060
Speaker 1: by industry peers, the judges, all that, but also by

423
00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,990
Speaker 1: the listeners, by you guys. We won three awards. We

424
00:26:01,010 --> 00:26:04,129
Speaker 1: took home the gold for best music podcast, the show,

425
00:26:04,869 --> 00:26:09,429
Speaker 1: Obama's Higher Ground Company, their limited series on Fela Kuti.

426
00:26:09,450 --> 00:26:12,619
Speaker 1: They won for limited series. We won for best show,

427
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: which is huge. Took home the gold. We also got

428
00:26:16,859 --> 00:26:19,850
Speaker 1: listener's choice in that category, which means we not only

429
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,990
Speaker 1: won the gold, which was an award given by the judges,

430
00:26:22,010 --> 00:26:25,220
Speaker 1: but You guys showed up and you voted and we

431
00:26:25,340 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: won the Listener's Choice Award for Best Music Podcast as well,

432
00:26:29,350 --> 00:26:31,469
Speaker 1: which people tell me who are in the know that

433
00:26:31,490 --> 00:26:33,530
Speaker 1: that's an even bigger deal. Feels like it because you

434
00:26:33,550 --> 00:26:37,470
Speaker 1: guys are involved. Finally, we won the silver for best

435
00:26:37,730 --> 00:26:40,889
Speaker 1: writing for the Patti Smith episode that I wrote and

436
00:26:40,950 --> 00:26:43,869
Speaker 1: that the team here at Double Elves put together. And

437
00:26:44,190 --> 00:26:46,869
Speaker 1: I look at it more as just a recognition of

438
00:26:47,090 --> 00:26:51,270
Speaker 1: our writing in general, mine and Zeth's. Zeth has written

439
00:26:51,310 --> 00:26:56,470
Speaker 1: some incredible episodes of Disgraceland. I recorded one yesterday on

440
00:26:56,550 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: Karen Carpenter that I cannot wait for you to hear.

441
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:00,900
Speaker 1: He's got a new one on Buddy Holly as well

442
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: that is fucking great. The whole team here, we work

443
00:27:05,220 --> 00:27:08,580
Speaker 1: our ass off on this show every week. Matt Bowden,

444
00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:15,189
Speaker 1: Sean Cahalan, Jamie. runs operations. My dad does research for us.

445
00:27:15,869 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: All of us here, Ryan Spraker helps out with the

446
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,540
Speaker 1: music from time to time. And it feels great. I

447
00:27:21,540 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: almost forgot to mention Brett, our associate producer here. Just

448
00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:30,189
Speaker 1: been awesome. It's been awesome this week to get this recognition.

449
00:27:30,210 --> 00:27:33,810
Speaker 1: Because on the one hand, you could be like, oh,

450
00:27:33,890 --> 00:27:35,730
Speaker 1: stop blowing smoke up your own ass. And I clearly

451
00:27:35,790 --> 00:27:37,530
Speaker 1: am blowing smoke up my own ass and the team's

452
00:27:37,609 --> 00:27:39,970
Speaker 1: ass right now. But it's also You guys know what

453
00:27:39,990 --> 00:27:42,370
Speaker 1: it's like. You get your head so far into something, man.

454
00:27:42,410 --> 00:27:47,550
Speaker 1: You're so in it that it's hard to detach and

455
00:27:47,570 --> 00:27:50,090
Speaker 1: to actually go, look at what we're doing here. Look

456
00:27:50,109 --> 00:27:51,730
Speaker 1: at what we've made and look at how people are

457
00:27:51,810 --> 00:27:55,690
Speaker 1: enjoying it. And, you know, it doesn't happen. And these

458
00:27:55,730 --> 00:27:58,790
Speaker 1: things kind of help us take a moment and recognize

459
00:27:59,470 --> 00:28:01,669
Speaker 1: what we're making, how much we love making it, how

460
00:28:01,730 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: grateful we are for you guys and for our partners

461
00:28:03,859 --> 00:28:06,659
Speaker 1: at Exactly Right, our new partners at Exactly Right and iHeart.

462
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 1: who have helped this whole thing grow even more over

463
00:28:10,180 --> 00:28:12,940
Speaker 1: the last year and brought in all these new listeners.

464
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: Thank you all. Appreciate you. Three Signal Awards. Pretty awesome. Now,

465
00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:21,460
Speaker 1: you know what else is awesome? Your phone calls, your texts,

466
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,770
Speaker 1: your DMs, your voicemails. Let's get into them, shall we? Listen,

467
00:28:24,810 --> 00:28:27,210
Speaker 1: quick note on the phone calls and the voicemails and

468
00:28:27,230 --> 00:28:32,209
Speaker 1: the texts. We do this question of the week. And oftentimes...

469
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: I record these after-party episodes right on the heels of

470
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,790
Speaker 1: the new episode coming out. So oftentimes, you guys haven't

471
00:28:39,830 --> 00:28:43,970
Speaker 1: even heard the new episode before I'm recording this after-party.

472
00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:46,810
Speaker 1: So the question of the week that was asked last

473
00:28:46,850 --> 00:28:51,690
Speaker 1: week often doesn't sort of generate the responses we want

474
00:28:51,710 --> 00:28:53,890
Speaker 1: until the week after. And I just say, fuck all that.

475
00:28:53,930 --> 00:28:57,190
Speaker 1: Who cares? Let's just talk about whatever. Obviously, answer the

476
00:28:57,230 --> 00:29:00,790
Speaker 1: question of the week. Call me. leave a voicemail, send

477
00:29:00,910 --> 00:29:03,570
Speaker 1: me a text, 617-906-6638. But I'm going to be less

478
00:29:03,610 --> 00:29:08,380
Speaker 1: interested in answering these things in sequential order, episodically or whatever.

479
00:29:08,650 --> 00:29:12,020
Speaker 1: We just had this open conversation about music history and

480
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: true crime, and we're going to foster that, okay? Question

481
00:29:15,340 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: of the week, answer of the week, by all means,

482
00:29:17,140 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: hit me up, but hit me up about anything and

483
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,700
Speaker 1: we'll get to it, okay? Nothing is off topic is

484
00:29:21,740 --> 00:29:25,300
Speaker 1: my point. Now, this week, I asked in relation to

485
00:29:25,380 --> 00:29:28,380
Speaker 1: Alice Cooper, who's had one of the greatest second acts

486
00:29:29,230 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: In rock and roll. So this call, this answer comes

487
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: from Tony in the 206.

488
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,470
Speaker 4: Jake, hey, what's up, man? Tony from the 206. Good

489
00:29:37,490 --> 00:29:41,050
Speaker 4: to hear from you. To answer your question, about who

490
00:29:41,070 --> 00:29:44,820
Speaker 4: has had the greatest second act, I definitely think that

491
00:29:44,860 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 4: if Kanye stays on the route that he is now,

492
00:29:47,740 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 4: he could definitely make that comeback. Now, will he, you know,

493
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,060
Speaker 4: be the darling that everybody knew and loved? Perhaps his

494
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 4: last album was good. But I think the person that

495
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,820
Speaker 4: had a great second act that honestly gets overlooked just

496
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 4: because of his legacy and everything he contributed is Prince.

497
00:30:05,260 --> 00:30:09,140
Speaker 4: And let me break it down. You see, Prince's last, like,

498
00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:13,710
Speaker 4: number one hit song was from the Diamond and Pearl era.

499
00:30:14,150 --> 00:30:16,190
Speaker 4: And one of his last albums that was on the

500
00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:19,770
Speaker 4: billboards in the 90s was the Emancipations album after his

501
00:30:19,870 --> 00:30:23,430
Speaker 4: acrimonious split from Warner Brothers. From that point on up

502
00:30:23,470 --> 00:30:26,550
Speaker 4: until about 2004, he would put out music and do tours,

503
00:30:26,890 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 4: but you never really heard about him. That wasn't until

504
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,500
Speaker 4: 2004 when he put out Musicology, which was considered to

505
00:30:33,540 --> 00:30:38,070
Speaker 4: be his big comeback album, and an amazing album that was.

506
00:30:38,090 --> 00:30:41,330
Speaker 4: It won him, like, two Grammys, and it ended up

507
00:30:41,370 --> 00:30:44,970
Speaker 4: giving him his most successful tour, the Musicology tour. It

508
00:30:44,990 --> 00:30:48,130
Speaker 4: was actually called his most successful tour since Purple Rain.

509
00:30:48,490 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 4: So that's why I think it really had a good

510
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 4: second comeback that a lot of people kind of overlook. But, yeah,

511
00:30:54,340 --> 00:30:55,900
Speaker 4: that's just my take on it. Let me know what

512
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,460
Speaker 4: you think of that. Always good to hear from you.

513
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:58,060
Speaker 4: Rock and roll us.

514
00:30:58,550 --> 00:31:00,490
Speaker 1: Tony, I love this. I love this because it's one

515
00:31:00,510 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: of those things that I never would have thought of.

516
00:31:03,010 --> 00:31:04,670
Speaker 1: And you know, you're absolutely right. And the other thing

517
00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:06,470
Speaker 1: I would add to what you said here about Prince

518
00:31:06,690 --> 00:31:12,830
Speaker 1: is that Prince also after musicology, after that era, he

519
00:31:12,890 --> 00:31:16,990
Speaker 1: sort of had become this, his cultural status had grown,

520
00:31:18,260 --> 00:31:21,140
Speaker 1: had become much more of sort of a beloved icon.

521
00:31:21,180 --> 00:31:24,660
Speaker 1: Not that he wasn't always a beloved pop star. He was,

522
00:31:25,100 --> 00:31:28,260
Speaker 1: but he kind of had this mythic thing that had

523
00:31:28,380 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: set in that wasn't truly there before. Great, great answer.

524
00:31:33,780 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: Love it. Thank you. Let's go to the 508 on

525
00:31:38,460 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: As I Lay Dying.

526
00:31:39,660 --> 00:31:43,170
Speaker 2: Hey, Jake. Mike from the 508. It's been a while

527
00:31:43,210 --> 00:31:45,890
Speaker 2: since I've talked to you directly. So the As I

528
00:31:46,030 --> 00:31:49,690
Speaker 2: Lay Dying episode, it really got me to thinking, I

529
00:31:49,730 --> 00:31:53,350
Speaker 2: wonder if you could do an episode on Shlomo Karabach.

530
00:31:54,170 --> 00:31:57,350
Speaker 2: He provided a lot of the tunes that are absolutely

531
00:31:57,450 --> 00:32:01,630
Speaker 2: the backbone of Jewish liturgy, you know, like Shabbat morning

532
00:32:01,710 --> 00:32:08,219
Speaker 2: services and holidays. And the thing is, though, you know,

533
00:32:08,260 --> 00:32:12,780
Speaker 2: when he was around, he was, like, really friendly with everybody,

534
00:32:13,260 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: except apparently he was really handsy with the women and

535
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:26,070
Speaker 2: girls there. I don't know if he actually raped anyone,

536
00:32:26,660 --> 00:32:30,310
Speaker 2: but I know there was a lot, a lot of

537
00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:33,970
Speaker 2: sexual harassment. So, worth looking into.

538
00:32:34,530 --> 00:32:35,150
Speaker 4: Okay, thanks.

539
00:32:35,490 --> 00:32:37,670
Speaker 1: Rock and roll. Okay, Mike, so we're talking about the

540
00:32:37,710 --> 00:32:42,170
Speaker 1: guy responsible for creating a lot of the music at

541
00:32:42,190 --> 00:32:46,130
Speaker 1: the core of Jewish liturgy. I believe that's what you're saying.

542
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: And I wonder, though, what era are we talking about here?

543
00:32:51,380 --> 00:32:54,719
Speaker 1: Where is the time period? This is interesting to me.

544
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: I need to know more, Mike. 617-906-6638. Voicemail and text.

545
00:32:58,940 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: Hit me back. Give me a little more info on

546
00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: this guy. And spell out his name for me, too,

547
00:33:02,140 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: if you can. Hit me on text so I can

548
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,810
Speaker 1: do a little research. All right. Let's check out the 9-2-0.

549
00:33:10,730 --> 00:33:17,030
Speaker 4: Greetings, fellow discos. This is Evermore, down low, in the 920,

550
00:33:17,030 --> 00:33:21,370
Speaker 4: talking about George Lynch, you know. And many great artists,

551
00:33:21,630 --> 00:33:23,770
Speaker 4: you don't have to like everything they do.

552
00:33:24,540 --> 00:33:27,020
Speaker 1: I like George Lynch, but most of his shit, I

553
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: don't even understand.

554
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: And getting to.

555
00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:33,100
Speaker 4: Another fantastic artist that I love is Trent Reznor.

556
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: I love most of his shit, but I don't love everything.

557
00:33:36,540 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 3: Later.

558
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,410
Speaker 1: Yo, Evermore, George Lynch... From Dokken? Is that what you're

559
00:33:42,430 --> 00:33:47,290
Speaker 1: talking about? The guitar player? Right? Are you bringing him

560
00:33:47,350 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: up because his daughter dated one of the guys in

561
00:33:50,130 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: As I Lay Dying? Is that what you're doing? Are

562
00:33:53,460 --> 00:33:56,500
Speaker 1: you being real cheeky? Trying to drop some knowledge on me?

563
00:33:56,740 --> 00:33:58,460
Speaker 1: Trying to sneak one by the goalie, as they say?

564
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,650
Speaker 1: I liked Dokken when they were around-ish. I can't say

565
00:34:03,690 --> 00:34:06,370
Speaker 1: I purposefully listened to them. I always thought George Lynch

566
00:34:06,390 --> 00:34:07,870
Speaker 1: was a great guitar player. Are we talking about the

567
00:34:07,890 --> 00:34:11,500
Speaker 1: same guy Trent Reznor too. Somebody else hit us up

568
00:34:11,540 --> 00:34:13,500
Speaker 1: about Trent Reznor and having the greatest second act in

569
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: relation to her Alice Cooper episode. And you know, I

570
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,700
Speaker 1: don't know much about the fall of Trent Reznor. Speaking

571
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,299
Speaker 1: of falls, this one comes from Blitz who writes in,

572
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,140
Speaker 1: Hey Jake, I love your show. I've listened since the

573
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: beginning out here in Bend, Oregon. Originally from Western New York.

574
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,859
Speaker 1: I don't understand how you can think Cobain took his

575
00:34:31,940 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: own life. It's just impossible for him to have. If

576
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,980
Speaker 1: he just shot himself, maybe. If he just overdosed, maybe.

577
00:34:39,350 --> 00:34:41,410
Speaker 1: But the way he was found, the overall weirdness of

578
00:34:41,430 --> 00:34:44,540
Speaker 1: the situation, Courtney's behavior at the time, literally how he

579
00:34:44,580 --> 00:34:47,580
Speaker 1: was found in the first place, a random electrician finding

580
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 1: him randomly. It just does an omelet. You can mix

581
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: it up every which way and how Kirk got to

582
00:34:56,219 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: where he was and how staged the scene seemed down

583
00:34:59,140 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: to the note. Okay, the note, the note I will

584
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,410
Speaker 1: give you. The note is sketchy. I'll give you that.

585
00:35:04,030 --> 00:35:09,090
Speaker 1: It doesn't compute. Okay. Okay, listen. Blitz, there are a

586
00:35:09,090 --> 00:35:11,810
Speaker 1: lot of things that don't compute. But when somebody takes

587
00:35:11,850 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: their own life, especially a globally recognized pop star, there's

588
00:35:15,940 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: going to be things that don't compute. The amount of

589
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,959
Speaker 1: just eyes on this thing. People are going to find

590
00:35:22,020 --> 00:35:24,230
Speaker 1: things that aren't there. And so far, what nobody has

591
00:35:24,290 --> 00:35:29,029
Speaker 1: found is any actual evidence, besides handwriting that may look

592
00:35:29,050 --> 00:35:32,290
Speaker 1: like somebody else's handwriting, that they haven't found any actual

593
00:35:32,450 --> 00:35:37,540
Speaker 1: evidence that makes it clear that he did not kill himself.

594
00:35:37,660 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: And I don't care. I read these articles every week.

595
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: There's a new one in the New York Post yesterday.

596
00:35:41,700 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: The New York Post is making a living off of

597
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,859
Speaker 1: Kurt Cobain clicks. Okay? It ain't happening, guys. It just

598
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:52,739
Speaker 1: ain't happening. There's such a thing as circumstantial evidence, and

599
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,259
Speaker 1: there's such a thing as hard evidence. They're different. And

600
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,980
Speaker 1: there's a lot of circumstantial evidence here at Kurt Cobain.

601
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: But I would contend that's because there's just a lot

602
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,390
Speaker 1: of eyes that have been on this. When you get

603
00:36:04,580 --> 00:36:07,060
Speaker 1: so many people looking into something and they can just go, yeah, yeah, yeah,

604
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: what about this? What about this? I don't really get

605
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,740
Speaker 1: your point. He was on heroin so he couldn't shoot himself?

606
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:16,779
Speaker 1: And I know he took a lot of heroin. I

607
00:36:16,820 --> 00:36:18,700
Speaker 1: know that. I know that about the situation. I know

608
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:23,610
Speaker 1: it was a lot. But still, you got a few moments.

609
00:36:24,130 --> 00:36:29,430
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying? You guys are further compelling

610
00:36:29,469 --> 00:36:32,209
Speaker 1: me into the Kurt Cobain, Courtney Love rabbit hole. Every week,

611
00:36:32,730 --> 00:36:36,470
Speaker 1: every week, 205 writes in a bit more on the

612
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: minor cheap trick reference from last week. I also remembered

613
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: Mike Damone in Fast Times singing the Dream Police. So

614
00:36:44,460 --> 00:36:47,740
Speaker 1: I looked up the scene on YouTube. Damone actually referenced

615
00:36:47,900 --> 00:36:50,540
Speaker 1: three cheap trick songs in a row. I Want You

616
00:36:50,580 --> 00:36:54,580
Speaker 1: to Want Me, the Dream Police, and then Surrender. So, Zeth,

617
00:36:55,230 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: and Chris from Chicago were each remembering different parts of

618
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,580
Speaker 1: the same spiel. The girl Damone is pitching the tickets

619
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: to said that's kid stuff, which reminded me that I

620
00:37:04,219 --> 00:37:06,439
Speaker 1: actually first saw Cheap Trick on the ABC Sunday morning

621
00:37:06,460 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: show Kids Are People Too when I was around seven

622
00:37:08,260 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: years old. Patrick in the 205. I remember Kids Are

623
00:37:11,580 --> 00:37:16,530
Speaker 1: People Too, vaguely. I can't imagine Cheap Trick being considered

624
00:37:16,570 --> 00:37:20,190
Speaker 1: a kids band, though. That's fucking wild. All right, bringing

625
00:37:20,230 --> 00:37:23,710
Speaker 1: it back to last week's As I Lay Dying episode.

626
00:37:24,250 --> 00:37:29,070
Speaker 1: This one comes from the 207 via text. Hey, Jake,

627
00:37:29,469 --> 00:37:31,610
Speaker 1: I haven't written to you before, but I felt compelled

628
00:37:31,650 --> 00:37:34,510
Speaker 1: to share my thoughts on the As I Lay Dying episode.

629
00:37:35,170 --> 00:37:37,469
Speaker 1: Growing up, I was exposed to a wide variety of

630
00:37:37,530 --> 00:37:40,110
Speaker 1: Christian music, and although I haven't closely followed the Christian

631
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,529
Speaker 1: music scene in recent years, I was deeply shocked when

632
00:37:42,550 --> 00:37:45,660
Speaker 1: the news broke in 2025 that Michael Tate, a prominent

633
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,180
Speaker 1: member of the renowned Christian band DC Talk, was accused

634
00:37:49,260 --> 00:37:52,969
Speaker 1: of grooming and sexually assaulting three men, It was reported

635
00:37:53,010 --> 00:37:55,790
Speaker 1: that his drug use and abusive behavior were allegedly the

636
00:37:55,830 --> 00:37:59,029
Speaker 1: biggest open secret in Christian music. Somebody else wrote me

637
00:37:59,070 --> 00:38:01,629
Speaker 1: about this. As I'm reading this, I'm kind of like,

638
00:38:01,910 --> 00:38:05,910
Speaker 1: did I read this already? But I did not. But

639
00:38:05,950 --> 00:38:07,790
Speaker 1: somebody else mentioned this to me last week. I'm going

640
00:38:07,810 --> 00:38:11,290
Speaker 1: to go on to continue this text. 207 continues here.

641
00:38:11,510 --> 00:38:14,690
Speaker 1: I was also reminded of John Steingard from the Christian

642
00:38:14,710 --> 00:38:17,530
Speaker 1: pop rock band Hawk Nelson, who publicly announced in 2020

643
00:38:17,530 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: that he no longer believed in God. Both of these

644
00:38:21,260 --> 00:38:24,860
Speaker 1: stories raise questions about authenticity and accountability in Christian music.

645
00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 1: These artists aren't just entertainers. They're often seen as role

646
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,540
Speaker 1: models and representatives of the faith itself. And that status

647
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,460
Speaker 1: can create strong incentives to maintain their image, whether by

648
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,660
Speaker 1: concealing a loss of faith or allowing misconduct to go

649
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 1: unchallenged to protect someone's reputation. I'm curious to know how

650
00:38:41,820 --> 00:38:44,090
Speaker 1: often the desire to preserve that image comes at the

651
00:38:44,140 --> 00:38:47,029
Speaker 1: expense of honesty, accountability, and the very values these artists

652
00:38:47,070 --> 00:38:49,310
Speaker 1: claim to represent. Well, right there, I have an answer.

653
00:38:49,370 --> 00:38:52,110
Speaker 1: I believe it happens a lot. 207 goes on to say,

654
00:38:52,150 --> 00:38:53,989
Speaker 1: I really appreciate the stories you tell because I think

655
00:38:54,090 --> 00:38:56,390
Speaker 1: many people believe that being a rock star is glamorous,

656
00:38:56,410 --> 00:38:59,230
Speaker 1: but the reality shows that it's often far from that.

657
00:38:59,290 --> 00:39:01,170
Speaker 1: Keep up the amazing show that you're doing. You got it, 207.

658
00:39:01,150 --> 00:39:04,030
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. And you're right. Rock stardom does

659
00:39:04,070 --> 00:39:06,100
Speaker 1: seem glamorous. And I think about this a lot now

660
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: because if I'm being honest, I quite like my life.

661
00:39:09,260 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: I'm very blessed. I'm very grateful to live the life

662
00:39:12,620 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: that I live. My family brings me tremendous joy every day.

663
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,670
Speaker 1: My kids blow my fucking mind. And we're in a

664
00:39:19,690 --> 00:39:22,930
Speaker 1: great season of our family life right now that is

665
00:39:23,430 --> 00:39:27,590
Speaker 1: completely consumed by my kids' activities and, a lot of

666
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,620
Speaker 1: sort of the fun early stuff when you're a young

667
00:39:30,660 --> 00:39:34,219
Speaker 1: couple without kids. That's sort of not what this is

668
00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:38,380
Speaker 1: about right now, but still it is absolutely incredible. And

669
00:39:38,540 --> 00:39:42,340
Speaker 1: every week I'm reading about these rock stars. Right now

670
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,500
Speaker 1: I'm reading about Mary Lou, excuse me, Marianne Faithfull and

671
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: her time uh, sort of caught up in the whole

672
00:39:48,780 --> 00:39:53,180
Speaker 1: steam of the Rolling Stones, uh, swinging London era. And

673
00:39:53,219 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: it was a time that I, that I, that I

674
00:39:55,340 --> 00:39:59,100
Speaker 1: used to romanticize, you know, I would have, there's a

675
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 1: time in my life when I would have given anything

676
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,049
Speaker 1: to trade places with Keith Richards or Mick Jagger. But

677
00:40:04,110 --> 00:40:09,009
Speaker 1: as I read this now, fuck no, man, just God, no,

678
00:40:09,890 --> 00:40:15,469
Speaker 1: absolutely not. I don't think I've read, yeah, I've read

679
00:40:15,489 --> 00:40:19,109
Speaker 1: a couple, you know, Alex James from Blur, his book.

680
00:40:19,820 --> 00:40:23,609
Speaker 1: There's a couple autobiographies from rock stars where they make

681
00:40:24,530 --> 00:40:27,569
Speaker 1: being a rock star seem really, truly great. I'm trying

682
00:40:27,590 --> 00:40:31,229
Speaker 1: to think of one that marries rock stardom with family life.

683
00:40:32,110 --> 00:40:34,629
Speaker 1: And I don't know that that quite exists. I'm sure

684
00:40:34,650 --> 00:40:36,850
Speaker 1: it does. I just can't think of it offhand. But

685
00:40:37,030 --> 00:40:42,170
Speaker 1: we do romanticize this stuff. And the further away I

686
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:46,410
Speaker 1: get from that, the less romantic it seems. And the

687
00:40:46,450 --> 00:40:49,210
Speaker 1: further I get into the research here, obviously, the less

688
00:40:49,250 --> 00:40:54,010
Speaker 1: romantic it seems. You talk about here, 207, you say,

689
00:40:54,030 --> 00:40:57,670
Speaker 1: I'm curious to know how often the desire to preserve

690
00:40:57,710 --> 00:41:01,009
Speaker 1: that image comes at the expense of honesty, accountability, and

691
00:41:01,030 --> 00:41:03,859
Speaker 1: the very values these artists claim to represent. You're talking

692
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,060
Speaker 1: about this in the context of faith and religion when

693
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:11,259
Speaker 1: it comes to Christian metal. the Christian music scene. But

694
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 1: I think that the way you just put that can

695
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:19,890
Speaker 1: be put on any musician whose image, and this goes

696
00:41:19,930 --> 00:41:23,850
Speaker 1: for most of them, their image becomes the thing and

697
00:41:23,870 --> 00:41:26,690
Speaker 1: they have to live up to that. No matter what

698
00:41:26,730 --> 00:41:31,739
Speaker 1: it is, Alice Cooper, shock rock, or even like a

699
00:41:31,780 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: hardcore band who's still out there being hard at 60,

700
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,330
Speaker 1: jumping around on stage, or whatever it is. Whatever the

701
00:41:39,390 --> 00:41:43,310
Speaker 1: image is, I guess we're not meant to be one thing.

702
00:41:44,370 --> 00:41:48,380
Speaker 1: We contain multitudes. You know what I'm saying? As it

703
00:41:48,410 --> 00:41:51,580
Speaker 1: pertains to these Christian guys, it's a whole other thing.

704
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:57,060
Speaker 1: Because faith, I believe, is a very personal thing. And

705
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:07,299
Speaker 1: navigating that through fame is quite something else. 617-906-6638, voicemail

706
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:12,670
Speaker 1: and text at disgracelandpod, DMs disgracelandpod at gmail.com. We'll be

707
00:42:12,710 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: back right after this with more from you. All right, guys,

708
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,780
Speaker 1: we're back. Thanks for joining us at DisgracelandPod on the socials.

709
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: I have to say, all the activity on Instagram lately,

710
00:42:35,820 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: it's been pretty overwhelming. That Screaming Jay Hawkins story we

711
00:42:40,060 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: told in the podcast, but then we made a little

712
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,430
Speaker 1: micro version of the kid thing, the 57 kids on Instagram.

713
00:42:48,790 --> 00:42:52,069
Speaker 1: And holy cow, did that bring in a lot of

714
00:42:52,130 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: new listeners. And the comments are fucking hysterical. As I

715
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: Lay Dying as well, opened us up to some new

716
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: listeners via the gram. Appreciate you all. Any of you

717
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: who are into the after party here for the first time,

718
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: thanks for joining us. You can hit us up on

719
00:43:08,860 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: Instagram or any of the other socials as you wish,

720
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 1: but you can also call us, 617-906-6638, voicemail and text.

721
00:43:17,180 --> 00:43:21,180
Speaker 1: And of course, you can also email us, disgracelandpod at gmail.com.

722
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,110
Speaker 1: And we're talking about musicians with great second acts. of

723
00:43:26,190 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: Alice Cooper. Got this email from Michelle. Michelle writes in,

724
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,500
Speaker 1: hey Jake, enjoying Disgraceland, listening to every episode. It's a

725
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,060
Speaker 1: great concept and I learned a lot about many musicians

726
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,100
Speaker 1: I like and ones I don't and or didn't know

727
00:43:38,140 --> 00:43:41,029
Speaker 1: much about previously. Here are some musicians that resurrected their

728
00:43:41,050 --> 00:43:44,190
Speaker 1: careers that came back from the dead. Well, maybe not

729
00:43:44,230 --> 00:43:46,589
Speaker 1: literally everyone, but here are a few that came to mind.

730
00:43:46,610 --> 00:43:49,790
Speaker 1: Iggy Pop, thanks to David Bowie in his time in Berlin.

731
00:43:49,850 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: Stevie Nicks, Silver Springs, her jumping off point from Fleetwood Mac.

732
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,980
Speaker 1: Ozzy Osbourne, after nearly dying in an LA hotel, the

733
00:43:57,180 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: Bark at the Moon era. George Harrison. Paul McCartney. Enough said.

734
00:44:03,610 --> 00:44:09,130
Speaker 1: Roy Orbison. Yeah. Bob Dylan. Okay. ABBA. Don't know about ABBA,

735
00:44:09,270 --> 00:44:13,029
Speaker 1: but I'm curious. Look forward to hearing from the rest

736
00:44:13,070 --> 00:44:15,870
Speaker 1: of your audience on this subject. Rock a roll. Michelle. Guys,

737
00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:18,830
Speaker 1: I'm still taking answers to the question, which artists have

738
00:44:18,870 --> 00:44:21,460
Speaker 1: had the greatest second acts? Get back to us like

739
00:44:21,500 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: Michelle at DisgracelandPod or 617-906-6638. You know I'm here for

740
00:44:28,340 --> 00:44:33,010
Speaker 1: your Kurt Cobain commentary as well. I see you, Stanley Starbuck.

741
00:44:33,330 --> 00:44:36,210
Speaker 1: Thank you for the email. It's a little long. I

742
00:44:36,270 --> 00:44:39,350
Speaker 1: might respond next week or I might just respond via email.

743
00:44:39,390 --> 00:44:44,810
Speaker 1: Appreciate it. This email comes from Trey Smith. Subject, Anthony Kiedis.

744
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: Recently found your podcast and love the content and production.

745
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,140
Speaker 1: After listening to several episodes, I searched for an episode

746
00:44:51,180 --> 00:44:54,380
Speaker 1: on Anthony Kiedis. I did hear the River Phoenix episode

747
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,410
Speaker 1: and would love to hear something on Anthony. His autobiography,

748
00:44:57,450 --> 00:45:00,190
Speaker 1: Scar Tissue, is pretty wild. Thank you, Trey. It is

749
00:45:00,270 --> 00:45:03,930
Speaker 1: indeed pretty fucking wild. I've read most of it. And yeah,

750
00:45:03,969 --> 00:45:06,750
Speaker 1: there's an episode there. I don't quite know how to

751
00:45:06,830 --> 00:45:09,220
Speaker 1: tell it yet. I don't really know how to present

752
00:45:09,260 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: it beside the whole... I mean, his upbringing is pretty fascinating.

753
00:45:12,980 --> 00:45:19,250
Speaker 1: His father... The young girl stuff is, God, I got

754
00:45:19,270 --> 00:45:21,010
Speaker 1: my head too much in that lately with the Jared

755
00:45:21,030 --> 00:45:27,250
Speaker 1: Leto thing. But Trey, perhaps sometime soon. Definitely sometime soon.

756
00:45:28,370 --> 00:45:32,240
Speaker 1: Shout out to Sarah Lenga, new Patreon member. Thanks for

757
00:45:32,260 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: becoming a member and supporting us, Sarah. Shout out to

758
00:45:35,820 --> 00:45:40,540
Speaker 1: Christina Staggemeier. Christina, thanks for checking us out on Patreon.

759
00:45:41,420 --> 00:45:46,530
Speaker 1: Fran Marks. Coming in at the $ 100 level. Dang, Fran.

760
00:45:46,550 --> 00:45:50,210
Speaker 1: Appreciate you. If you guys want to become All Access members,

761
00:45:50,510 --> 00:45:54,430
Speaker 1: you can do so for as little as, gosh, golly,

762
00:45:54,550 --> 00:45:56,649
Speaker 1: a dollar a month, right? You can become a free

763
00:45:56,690 --> 00:45:59,210
Speaker 1: member as well. Just kind of snoop around. Or you

764
00:45:59,230 --> 00:46:02,180
Speaker 1: can support us at various levels. Go to disgracesandpod.com to

765
00:46:02,219 --> 00:46:05,219
Speaker 1: sign up. You're going to unlock ad-free listening. You're going

766
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,020
Speaker 1: to unlock exclusive content like the conversation I'm about to

767
00:46:09,060 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: have with Zeth right here in the after party. And

768
00:46:11,739 --> 00:46:14,370
Speaker 1: you're also If you can't get enough of Zeth and

769
00:46:14,469 --> 00:46:17,750
Speaker 1: I throughout the week, right, in the exclusive section of

770
00:46:17,790 --> 00:46:21,950
Speaker 1: the After Party or in the Hollywoodland feed where Zeth

771
00:46:22,390 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 1: puts two episodes out per week, the wrap party in

772
00:46:25,340 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: the screening room, plus we have an archive episode that

773
00:46:27,580 --> 00:46:30,060
Speaker 1: sort of thematically frames the whole week for you, our

774
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,779
Speaker 1: sort of Hollywood and true crime play over there in

775
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,780
Speaker 1: the Hollywoodland feed. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple Podcasts

776
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. But I'm in there

777
00:46:37,860 --> 00:46:40,190
Speaker 1: with Zeth and the wrap party giving my recommendations. And

778
00:46:40,250 --> 00:46:42,350
Speaker 1: if that's not enough for you, and I know it's not,

779
00:46:43,260 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 1: We have our This Film Should Be Played Loud video podcast.

780
00:46:48,660 --> 00:46:53,660
Speaker 1: It comes out once a month. And this month being Halloween,

781
00:46:54,170 --> 00:46:57,549
Speaker 1: we're discussing Shaun of the Dead. Okay, that's coming at

782
00:46:57,570 --> 00:47:00,569
Speaker 1: you next week. Going to be an all-access member to

783
00:47:00,650 --> 00:47:06,219
Speaker 1: cop that. Fran, I see you, buddy. This might be

784
00:47:06,260 --> 00:47:08,100
Speaker 1: your first This Film Should Be Played Loud. Hope you

785
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,100
Speaker 1: enjoy it. Go to disgracelandpod.com to sign up and support

786
00:47:11,140 --> 00:47:14,020
Speaker 1: the show. We appreciate all you discos who are supporting

787
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,070
Speaker 1: us at all access on either Apple Podcasts or Patreon.

788
00:47:18,110 --> 00:47:18,790
Speaker 1: Thank you very much.

789
00:47:18,810 --> 00:47:33,140
Speaker 3: All right, guys, we are back.

790
00:47:33,180 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: Thank you once again for joining us in the after party.

791
00:47:37,170 --> 00:47:39,130
Speaker 1: We're coming up on 300 episodes. We're going to hit

792
00:47:39,170 --> 00:47:43,049
Speaker 1: that 300 episode mark in January or February. I count

793
00:47:43,090 --> 00:47:46,550
Speaker 1: episodes as fully scripted episodes. I don't count these bonus episodes.

794
00:47:46,570 --> 00:47:50,770
Speaker 1: They're bonus episodes. 300 scripted episodes, man. That's a fucking lot.

795
00:47:51,050 --> 00:47:53,739
Speaker 1: That's a lot. You'll be new here. There's a lot

796
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 1: of episodes in the archive on artists from almost every

797
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,779
Speaker 1: genre from music. Check that out. If you've got any

798
00:47:59,820 --> 00:48:03,380
Speaker 1: questions on specific artists you're interested in, hit me up.

799
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:03,860
Speaker 3: 617-906-6638.

800
00:48:03,940 --> 00:48:10,870
Speaker 1: Voicemail and text. at DisgracelandPod on the socials. I can

801
00:48:10,910 --> 00:48:13,469
Speaker 1: point you in the right direction. Let's recap because I

802
00:48:13,489 --> 00:48:14,850
Speaker 1: got to get out of here. All right. Number one,

803
00:48:14,890 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: this week, our new episode on Alice Cooper is available

804
00:48:17,219 --> 00:48:19,020
Speaker 1: for you right now in the Rewind slot. Number two

805
00:48:19,060 --> 00:48:22,580
Speaker 1: in the Rewind slot, our classic episode on ACDC. That's

806
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,819
Speaker 1: parts one and two. Next, number three, coming up, our

807
00:48:25,980 --> 00:48:28,739
Speaker 1: new episode on Reggie Watts. And I can't wait for

808
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,989
Speaker 1: you to hear this. Number four, Zeth gives you those

809
00:48:31,050 --> 00:48:33,830
Speaker 1: Hollywood and crime vibes in the Hollywoodland feed. So make

810
00:48:33,850 --> 00:48:37,049
Speaker 1: sure you subscribe. Number five, current This Film Should Be

811
00:48:37,090 --> 00:48:41,230
Speaker 1: Played Loud video podcast episode on on Shaun of the

812
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:43,379
Speaker 1: Dead is coming your way next week. Gross Point Blank

813
00:48:43,410 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: is available for you to watch right now if you

814
00:48:44,980 --> 00:48:49,620
Speaker 1: haven't already. Number six, 617-906-6638. Your voice keeps us digging

815
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: into the dark corners of music history, so keep calling,

816
00:48:51,700 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 1: keep texting with your answers to this week's question of

817
00:48:53,580 --> 00:48:55,580
Speaker 1: the week or with whatever else you want to talk about.

818
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: Number seven, don't forget discos. This isn't just content. It's

819
00:48:58,100 --> 00:49:00,259
Speaker 1: a community, a community of the obsessed, and no one

820
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,700
Speaker 1: cares about music, books, records, and the crime and grime.

821
00:49:02,989 --> 00:49:04,710
Speaker 1: It ties them all together like you do, and, well,

822
00:49:04,750 --> 00:49:09,750
Speaker 1: that's a disgrace. Back on April 6th, 1988, Alice Cooper

823
00:49:09,790 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: finally flushes drugs down the toilet. And this is what

824
00:49:12,620 --> 00:49:15,420
Speaker 1: America was listening to on that day according to the

825
00:49:15,460 --> 00:49:20,700
Speaker 1: Billboard charts. Number one, Get Out of My Dream. get

826
00:49:20,739 --> 00:49:25,779
Speaker 1: into my car. Billy Ocean, last week. Three, peak position. One,

827
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 1: weeks on chart. Nine, number two, man in the mirror.

828
00:49:31,180 --> 00:49:36,660
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson, last week. One, peak position. One, weeks on chart.

829
00:49:36,700 --> 00:49:36,950
Speaker 2: Ten, ten.

830
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:42,460
Speaker 1: Number three, out of the blue, Debbie Gibson. Last week, four.

831
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:49,050
Speaker 1: Peak position, three. Weeks on chart, 11. Number four, devil inside,

832
00:49:49,070 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 1: in excess. Last week, seven. Peak position, four. Weeks on chart, nine.

833
00:49:56,420 --> 00:50:13,770
Speaker 4: Number five. Quit talking and start mixing.