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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Jesse Mallin quite literally came of age on stage in

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Speaker 2: the gritty clubs of New York City. At just twelve

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Speaker 2: years old, he fronted Heart Attack, one of the earliest

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Speaker 2: hardcore groups in the city. After they broke up in

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Speaker 2: eighty four, Jesse went on to play in other groups,

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Speaker 2: including Hope, and later co found a d Generation, a

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Speaker 2: glam punk band that toured extensively through the nineties, opening

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Speaker 2: for acts like Kiss, the Ramones and Social Distortion. In

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Speaker 2: the early two thousands, Jesse launched a solo career, trading

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Speaker 2: hardcore for a more singer songwriter driven approach. As a

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Speaker 2: solo artist, he's collaborated with a wide range of musicians,

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Speaker 2: including Bruce Springsteen, lusen To Williams, and Billy Joe Armstrong.

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Speaker 2: A true musician's musician, Jesse has long been a beloved

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Speaker 2: figure in the rock community, so when he suffered a

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Speaker 2: rare spinal stroke in twenty twenty three that left him

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Speaker 2: temporarily paralyzed from the waist down, that community rallied around him.

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Speaker 2: The result was Silver Patron Saints The Songs of Jesse Mallin,

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Speaker 2: a twenty twenty four tribute album featuring covers of his

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Speaker 2: songs by friends and admirers. Jesse's also debuting a musical

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Speaker 2: this fall, called Jesse Mallin Silver Manhattan, A Musical Guide

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Speaker 2: to Survival, at the Grammercy Theater in New York. On

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Speaker 2: today's episode, Bruce Hedlm talks with Jesse Mallin about his

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Speaker 2: colorful upbringing and Queen's, how he found the nerve to

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Speaker 2: try out for a gig at CBGB's at age twelve,

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Speaker 2: and what it was like during the formative years of

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Speaker 2: New York's hardcore scene. Jesse also shares how his positive

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Speaker 2: mental attitude helped him through the toughest chapter of his life,

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Speaker 2: recovering from the stroke that nearly ended his ability to walk.

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Speaker 2: This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. Here's Bruce

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Speaker 2: Headlam with Jesse Mallin.

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Speaker 1: I always assumed, because you're the mayor of East Village,

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Speaker 1: that you grow up downtown New York. But you didn't.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm not in politics. I don't know about the

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Speaker 3: mayor thing.

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Speaker 4: Somebody once said that, But no, I grew up in

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Speaker 4: Queen's and I was born in Flushing, and yeah, the

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Speaker 4: city isn't that far away from Queens but when you know,

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Speaker 4: living in a suburban, middle class kind of you know,

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Speaker 4: place like that. It's not everybody goes there or gets

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Speaker 4: to go there to do. They stay sometimes and just

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Speaker 4: become part of Queen's. But I knew that there were

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Speaker 4: things in the city, and you could, you know, see

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Speaker 4: it in magazines and hear it on the radio, or

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Speaker 4: if you went to the circus at Mattis Square Garden.

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Speaker 4: You might drive down another street and see something crazy

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Speaker 4: and suddenly be like.

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Speaker 3: Wow, what's going on over there?

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Speaker 4: You know? Man in movies you got to see New York.

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Speaker 4: New York just different now. But yeah, Queen's was definitely

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Speaker 4: the early days.

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Speaker 1: And what was it like? What was family life like?

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Speaker 4: I grew up with my mom and my sister of

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Speaker 4: a sister younger. My father left pretty early on, and

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Speaker 4: my mom was a single mom who wanted to be

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Speaker 4: a singer, but they got divorced young. They had us young,

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Speaker 4: and she just did everything from waitressing to working in

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Speaker 4: Bloomingdale's at a makeup counter to you know, whatever she

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Speaker 4: could do to get by, and so it led for

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Speaker 4: some freedom. Sometimes we had babysitters and limes. She couldn't

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Speaker 4: afford babies that we were alone, and that was exciting.

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Speaker 4: I didn't think it was anything bad or dangerous. It

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Speaker 4: was fun to me. But my mom was very loving,

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Speaker 4: but she had a lot on her plate. She was

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Speaker 4: in her twenties, so I think sometimes she let me

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Speaker 4: do a lot of things that a kid my age

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Speaker 4: wouldn't be able to do or see, like go to

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Speaker 4: see One Floor of the Cuckoo's Nest with Jack Nicholson

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Speaker 4: when I'm eight for my birthday, because you know, where

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Speaker 4: other parents, she.

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Speaker 3: Maybe felt bad, she wasn't able to give other things,

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Speaker 3: so she was loose.

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Speaker 4: You know, here, here's a record, or here's magazines you want,

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Speaker 4: or you know, to break some of those rules. In

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Speaker 4: those days, films were such a big thing for me.

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Speaker 4: If I couldn't see a film, I'd read the Mad

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Speaker 4: magazine satire of it and pretend to somebody that I

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Speaker 4: saw the film. But they were windows into an adult life.

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Speaker 4: I really wanted to grow up fast. I was excited

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Speaker 4: by film and music and the teenagers. Queen's had a

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Speaker 4: day different thing than my neighborhood in Whitestone, where people

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Speaker 4: hung out in the streets, you know, even though it

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Speaker 4: was the seventies and it wasn't like.

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Speaker 3: Do wop people in a tunnel.

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Speaker 4: But there were like kids listening to like Leonard Skinner

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Speaker 4: and drinking forty ounce bottles in the park or a

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Speaker 4: school yard with a boombox, or you know, you'd hear

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Speaker 4: Cashmeer by led Zeppelin, and you know they were stoned

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Speaker 4: out like a Cheech and Chong movie. The bus that

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Speaker 4: went to school was a city bus, and it was

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Speaker 4: just boomboxes and smoke. And I got caught up in

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Speaker 4: you know, radio AM radio first, and me and my

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Speaker 4: cousin would judge any song if we heard on a radio,

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Speaker 4: we'd try to get a buck or fifty cents, I think,

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Speaker 4: and buy a single at Corvette's out there. And then

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Speaker 4: if we liked it, the way we judge it is

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Speaker 4: we could jump on the bed really fast and try

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Speaker 4: to hit the ceiling. That meant it was a good song.

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Speaker 4: And in the seventies, the fifties was a big nostalgia

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Speaker 4: so American graffiti. We got Chuck Berry Johnny be Good

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Speaker 4: and it was so rocket and Elton John came out

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Speaker 4: with Crocodile Rock, which had a fifties thing, and suddenly

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Speaker 4: I got Intelton John and that would be the first

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Speaker 4: artist that I really Some babysitter had Goodbye Yellow Brick Road,

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Speaker 4: and I just opened it up and I stared at

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Speaker 4: the illustrations for each song, and I read the lyrics

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Speaker 4: along with the record, and it was very adult, but

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Speaker 4: very It was something dark, but he were these beautiful

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Speaker 4: songs with this beautiful voice. And then there was some

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Speaker 4: kind of anger and something dirty and screwed up. And

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Speaker 4: I don't know what's going on to merrilman Roe or

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Speaker 4: what happened with this lesbian Alice or this, you know, like,

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Speaker 4: but I wanted to know, and I felt something, even

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Speaker 4: though I didn't know fully.

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Speaker 1: Was that was that stuff a little scary to you

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Speaker 1: or just attractive to you?

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Speaker 4: It was attractive scary a little In some of the photos,

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Speaker 4: you know, the drummer Nigel Olsen had long hair. He

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Speaker 4: looked like a woman. And then it was just it

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Speaker 4: said it was okay, you know. I mean, I liked

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Speaker 4: in Benny and the Jets because I'd be angry at

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Speaker 4: my father, angry at teachers, and it said, you know,

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Speaker 4: we'll fight our parents out in the street to prove

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Speaker 4: who's right and who's wrong. And it was like a

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Speaker 4: rallying cry and some of this I'd never heard a

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Speaker 4: live audience. The beginning of Benny and Jetsy, here a

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Speaker 4: crowd applause, and like you felt like it was a

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Speaker 4: concert entering your little room. And then Elton John came

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Speaker 4: out in the seventies that he was bisexual, and we

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Speaker 4: were living in a kind of racist, homophobic being. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's Archie Bunker's Queens. It's a lot of close minded

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Speaker 4: people that would say stuff about other races. You know,

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Speaker 4: we grew up talking that way. And my family, my

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Speaker 4: grandfather and you know, they were Jewish people. I wasn't

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Speaker 4: raised religious, but they understood discrimination and that kind of

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Speaker 4: persecution that people got. So we were hip to like

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Speaker 4: that we weren't going to say the N word or

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Speaker 4: look at anyone different than I was black, right, red,

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Speaker 4: you know, brown Like it was in that way that

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Speaker 4: was put into my head that to that people are

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Speaker 4: people and that there's no judgment. So when Elton John

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Speaker 4: kind of came out and said, oh, he's gay, he's by,

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Speaker 4: he's this, to me, I was like, well that's cool,

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Speaker 4: that's okay. If my guy is, he's great. Elton John like,

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Speaker 4: and here was this person that had to wear glasses,

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Speaker 4: and I had to wear glasses, and here's this guy

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Speaker 4: that wasn't like beautiful, looking like a Rod Stewart or

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Speaker 4: Robert Plant and took maybe the things and I didn't

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Speaker 4: realize at the time, but those weaknesses where you're you

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Speaker 4: don't feel you're the super Elvis hunk, and you do

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Speaker 4: all this other stuff to make yourself larger than life

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Speaker 4: and make you create your own image and your own

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Speaker 4: art and reality with your appearance. And that was mixed

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Speaker 4: with this beautiful voice and the fact that oh he's

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Speaker 4: bisexual and kids said, oh he's gay. He's like, well,

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Speaker 4: then that's okay. So it sent a lot of great

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Speaker 4: messages to somebody. Same thing with seeing the movie Dogged

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Speaker 4: Afternoon at a young age and you find out that

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Speaker 4: al Pacino's robbing the bank the character Sonny to pay

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Speaker 4: for his lover's you know, operation to have a you know,

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Speaker 4: sex change, and I'm in Queen's where everybody is so

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Speaker 4: anti gay, and yet it's al Pacino who just did

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Speaker 4: The Godfather and just did Cerpercos. It's the guy like

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Speaker 4: in Sanulai Fever when johns Fulda goes, oh, do you know, well,

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Speaker 4: they were a hero and they stuck with him. I

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Speaker 4: remember nobody yelled out home, oh well, walked out. Everybody stayed.

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Speaker 4: And it just the messages that it's okay to be different,

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Speaker 4: it's okay to be weird. And I was hyperactive kid.

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Speaker 4: I was getting thrown out of school. I was angry

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Speaker 4: at it. So I had to go to a therapist

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Speaker 4: or go talk to people in the school. So I thought,

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Speaker 4: I'm crazy or they treat me like great, well, then

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Speaker 4: maybe crazy's okay, and maybe the character one flow of

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Speaker 4: the Cucko's Nest is different than the rest of the

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Speaker 4: mold and the system and the mainstream. And I think

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Speaker 4: those were punk rock ideas that were being fed into me.

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Speaker 4: And then I got into Kiss. I was at that

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Speaker 4: age and they were from New York and it was like,

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Speaker 4: you know, all the action films, Billy Jack and Clint

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Speaker 4: East and everything and rock and roll thrown into one

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Speaker 4: and fire and at that point, the older kids they

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Speaker 4: didn't like it. The kids that like Sabbath and Zeppelin

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Speaker 4: and even the Grateful Dead.

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Speaker 3: It was like Kiss sucks, Yeah, got beat up.

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Speaker 1: It was the first album, that Kiss album, I guess Destroyer.

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Speaker 1: I remember people just carrying around at school with their books. Ye,

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Speaker 1: well so cool. I know you're not there. There's no

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Speaker 1: record play. It's just like they just carried it with

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Speaker 1: them everywhere they went.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was twelve inches. It's it's you know, it's

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Speaker 4: a statement. But so that was you know, I was

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Speaker 4: loved the band. I was in the Kiss Army. I

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Speaker 4: would have did anything, played in the Talent Show first time,

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Speaker 4: spitting ketchup instead of blood, dressed as Steet Simmons. But

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Speaker 4: the thing about them, it was a band. It felt

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Speaker 4: like a gang. It felt like more than just a song.

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Speaker 4: It was like, I want to be part of this thing.

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Speaker 4: I want to raise my fist. I want to tell

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Speaker 4: my parents I'm not going to be like them and

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Speaker 4: work that job. I'm not going to turn into them.

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Speaker 4: We have another there's another chance, there's another road. And

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Speaker 4: we got beat up and made fun of by everybody

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Speaker 4: that you know, was like kiss suck that didn't like it.

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Speaker 4: So that was preparing me for punk rock because once

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Speaker 4: I got it to that, then you're really hated at

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Speaker 4: that time, even by you know, it wasn't like these

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Speaker 4: days where people like a lot of different things, like

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Speaker 4: to what you liked and if you were into punk.

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Speaker 4: They figured you killed your girlfriend like said Vicious or

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Speaker 4: a junkie or a fact like.

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Speaker 3: Whatever it was.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't didn't have that open minded this that a

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Speaker 4: festival might have right now at Coachella or somewhere where

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Speaker 4: you get.

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Speaker 3: A little everything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fine, but I.

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Speaker 4: Respect like in the mods and rockers or punks and skins.

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Speaker 3: Like I respected people.

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Speaker 4: If you go to London, you go to some SKA

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Speaker 4: show now or something, and you see people that they're lifers,

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Speaker 4: like rockabilly, like they're in it and they'll fight and

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Speaker 4: that's their thing. Metal people are like that. They're they're

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Speaker 4: very into it. That dedication I respect. But I think

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Speaker 4: that you know, we all kind of probably like just

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Speaker 4: good music, all kinds of music. It's almost it's.

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Speaker 3: Good, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no you said tribes. Yeah, what was the first

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Speaker 1: punk song you heard?

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Speaker 4: I probably heard blitz Creak Bop, but I didn't realize

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Speaker 4: what was going on. It came through on the radio

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Speaker 4: and I just knew it. But I was watching some

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Speaker 4: TV Choice Awards, some kind of awards show somehow, and

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Speaker 4: the sex Pistols came on and it heard about them

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Speaker 4: The New York and a few things. But it just

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Speaker 4: you know, just seeing it, seeing the little clip of

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Speaker 4: how Johnny Rotten played to the camera, and it was

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Speaker 4: way tougher than Kiss and way angrier. And it also

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Speaker 4: was like I could do this, I think, like, you know,

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Speaker 4: it just had a thing. It was like if Kiss

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Speaker 4: made me want to yell and scream, this made you

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Speaker 4: don't want to go to my room and throw everything

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Speaker 4: out and like just start again and break things up

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Speaker 4: in a way.

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Speaker 1: Now, had you started playing any instruments by this point.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like around the Kiss time, I started to go

246
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Speaker 4: for some guitar lessons and of course, you know, they're

247
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Speaker 4: teaching you Stare Away the Heaven by Led Zeppelin, and

248
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Speaker 4: they're teaching you all this free bird and classic stuff.

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Speaker 3: And it took a lot of work.

250
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So once I you know, then got a Ramones record,

252
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Speaker 4: I realized, oh, they're from Queens. They wear the same

253
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Speaker 4: leather jackets as Phonsie, one of my TV heroes. They're

254
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Speaker 4: they're like a band, like the way the Beatles and

255
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Speaker 4: Kiss are like each person is like a character, and

256
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Speaker 4: they have these chants like Kiss had you know these

257
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Speaker 4: shouted out loud or rock and roll night, these big

258
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Speaker 4: anthems to chant certain parts with get the floor tom

259
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Speaker 4: and the snare. Well ramones had it in a different way.

260
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Speaker 4: They're yelling, hey ho, let's go a lobotomy. So I

261
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Speaker 4: started to learn those songs. And from learning those songs,

262
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Speaker 4: I was like, I can write. And we heard about

263
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Speaker 4: CBGB's and somebody said, you know, if you call this number,

264
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Speaker 4: you can come in and do an audition.

265
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Speaker 3: I was like twelve, and I called.

266
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Speaker 1: This amazes me. I still want to hear this story.

267
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Speaker 4: I called from the school payphone, and you know, the

268
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Speaker 4: rule was you had to play original music. So you

269
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Speaker 4: put together a band with whoever, like, oh, you have

270
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Speaker 4: a basement and your father has a drum set, you

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Speaker 4: have the drummer, like, you know, we'd get whoever could contribute.

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Speaker 4: And I wrote some songs and we practiced in the

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Speaker 4: basement of somebody else because I lived in an apartment.

274
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Speaker 4: And we got dropped off on the Bowery on a

275
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Speaker 4: Monday night and we went in there.

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Speaker 3: It was pretty scary.

277
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Speaker 4: It was like March and we were all about twelve

278
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Speaker 4: or thirteen, and we got on that stage and it

279
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Speaker 4: was like the whole place smelled like you know, I

280
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Speaker 4: didn't know piss and alcohol and vomit. But that's what

281
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Speaker 4: I thought it was supposed to be. And I couldn't

282
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Speaker 4: believe this was the place where Blondie and Talking Heads

283
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Speaker 4: and everybody in Ramones had played. And we played our

284
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Speaker 4: set and I called a week later and they said

285
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Speaker 4: we failed, you know, the audition And I was into

286
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Speaker 4: the Dead Boys and the Ramones and the pistols, and

287
00:13:23,876 --> 00:13:26,236
Speaker 4: they said, yeah, you missed it. That stuff's over, man,

288
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Speaker 4: like you got to try something new like that's because

289
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Speaker 4: this is nineteen eighty. So I was like, well, all right,

290
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Speaker 4: what and they're like, you know, like rockabilly or or

291
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Speaker 4: a new romantic or I was like, wait a minute,

292
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Speaker 4: this is weird. But I found out in time that

293
00:13:39,956 --> 00:13:42,596
Speaker 4: you had to bring twenty people that drank. We didn't

294
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Speaker 4: bring anybody, But somehow, a week later I got a

295
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Speaker 4: call to play at Max's Kansas City. There was somebody

296
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Speaker 4: that saw us there and they booked us for that

297
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Speaker 4: July July fifteenth. It was I remember because it's Johnny

298
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Speaker 4: Thunder's birthday and we knew who he was, and he actually.

299
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Speaker 3: Showed up at the gig.

300
00:14:02,236 --> 00:14:05,196
Speaker 4: But we got to play a show at Max's and

301
00:14:05,236 --> 00:14:07,956
Speaker 4: little By little what they told me I had missed

302
00:14:07,996 --> 00:14:12,116
Speaker 4: this raw, mounky music that I was just getting into. Yeah,

303
00:14:12,156 --> 00:14:14,596
Speaker 4: it was changing. Blondie was starting to get more pomp

304
00:14:14,636 --> 00:14:17,596
Speaker 4: and disco. Ramons are putting on striped shirts and taking

305
00:14:17,636 --> 00:14:21,036
Speaker 4: off the leather and working with Phil Spector, and everybody

306
00:14:21,076 --> 00:14:23,556
Speaker 4: was trying to have a hit. And I walked a

307
00:14:23,556 --> 00:14:26,276
Speaker 4: little further down the street where I bought my leather

308
00:14:26,316 --> 00:14:30,116
Speaker 4: wristbands and records called Saint Mark's Place, and I walked further.

309
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Speaker 4: As I walked further down on the light posts, there

310
00:14:32,236 --> 00:14:35,636
Speaker 4: were signs that looked punky to other clubs that weren't

311
00:14:35,676 --> 00:14:37,876
Speaker 4: advertised in the Village Voice, and they said, you know,

312
00:14:37,916 --> 00:14:42,596
Speaker 4: come down to a seven seventh Street Avenue and bad brains, stimulators,

313
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Speaker 4: false prophets. And that led me to another place where

314
00:14:46,476 --> 00:14:50,036
Speaker 4: this music was still going on. And somehow, without cell

315
00:14:50,036 --> 00:14:53,276
Speaker 4: phones and without you know, even this being in the paper,

316
00:14:53,876 --> 00:14:56,596
Speaker 4: we used a like in spaceballs, used the schworts or whatever,

317
00:14:56,796 --> 00:15:01,316
Speaker 4: some collective unconscious thing. We found each other. Kids my

318
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Speaker 4: age and a little older from Jersey, Long Island, Brooklyn, Queens,

319
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Speaker 4: a lot all ended up on Avenue A because of music.

320
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Speaker 4: So in Queens you had a band like Crowd coming

321
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Speaker 4: on in Forest Hills, Queens. You had Reagan Youth and

322
00:15:14,356 --> 00:15:16,436
Speaker 4: the name says a lot right there. You know, the

323
00:15:16,556 --> 00:15:19,036
Speaker 4: undead lived in the city False Prophets on Avenue B

324
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Speaker 4: and we all just maybe fifty or sixty people were

325
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Speaker 4: part of this thing that would become hardcore. And I

326
00:15:25,996 --> 00:15:28,156
Speaker 4: didn't realize that this was kind of happening in different

327
00:15:28,196 --> 00:15:30,996
Speaker 4: cities where yeah, maybe that was over in the Ramones,

328
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Speaker 4: but somebody that saw the Ramones took it to another level.

329
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Speaker 4: And you had Black Flag in California, and you had

330
00:15:36,876 --> 00:15:40,436
Speaker 4: Dead Kennedy's in Northern California and down in DC, and

331
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Speaker 4: it wasn't ready to end. It was a new chapter

332
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Speaker 4: and Reagan was president, and it felt like we had

333
00:15:45,276 --> 00:15:48,076
Speaker 4: a lot of things to sing about it. It was faster,

334
00:15:48,476 --> 00:15:50,796
Speaker 4: We had our own way of dancing, and you had

335
00:15:50,796 --> 00:15:53,996
Speaker 4: one minute to say everything that you felt about the world.

336
00:15:54,956 --> 00:15:57,396
Speaker 4: So heart Attack was my band. That was the name.

337
00:15:57,516 --> 00:15:59,636
Speaker 4: We put out a single called God Is Dad when

338
00:15:59,676 --> 00:16:02,596
Speaker 4: I was fourteen, and that is pretty much I think

339
00:16:02,636 --> 00:16:05,516
Speaker 4: it's known as the first New York hardcore single. I'm

340
00:16:05,516 --> 00:16:07,676
Speaker 4: not saying it's the best wherever it goes for a

341
00:16:07,756 --> 00:16:10,556
Speaker 4: thousand and changed or a couple bucks. It's a rarity,

342
00:16:10,596 --> 00:16:12,396
Speaker 4: but we did that.

343
00:16:12,596 --> 00:16:13,476
Speaker 1: You kept something right.

344
00:16:14,076 --> 00:16:15,636
Speaker 3: I kept the test pressing somewhere.

345
00:16:16,756 --> 00:16:20,156
Speaker 4: But that was a thing that came out and made

346
00:16:20,276 --> 00:16:22,396
Speaker 4: not want to be in school anymore. And from that

347
00:16:22,436 --> 00:16:25,076
Speaker 4: we played the rits with the Misfits. We started to

348
00:16:25,116 --> 00:16:28,396
Speaker 4: play with groups like Bad Brains, who were incredible. That

349
00:16:28,476 --> 00:16:31,396
Speaker 4: was a band that had jazz fusion chops for black

350
00:16:31,476 --> 00:16:33,916
Speaker 4: dudes from DC that took punk rock to a whole

351
00:16:33,996 --> 00:16:37,556
Speaker 4: other level. Being tight, precise, the whole performance was like

352
00:16:38,036 --> 00:16:41,436
Speaker 4: nothing I'd ever seen. And to know them, and we

353
00:16:41,476 --> 00:16:45,516
Speaker 4: had cheap gear Japanese guitars, and they had they were adults,

354
00:16:45,556 --> 00:16:48,196
Speaker 4: they were nineteen twenty, like you know, twenty one. They

355
00:16:48,196 --> 00:16:51,196
Speaker 4: had real equipment. They would lend us their equipment. And

356
00:16:51,236 --> 00:16:54,916
Speaker 4: they're talking about PMA positive mental latitude. It wasn't the

357
00:16:54,956 --> 00:16:59,116
Speaker 4: seventies destroy cut yourself like. It was like, yeah, we

358
00:16:59,156 --> 00:17:01,876
Speaker 4: can be crazy, have fun and not do drugs and

359
00:17:01,916 --> 00:17:04,836
Speaker 4: not put a needle Like drugs just never seemed exciting

360
00:17:04,876 --> 00:17:06,516
Speaker 4: to be put a needle in your arm, put some

361
00:17:06,516 --> 00:17:10,196
Speaker 4: shit in your nose. Guys, scratching got like that's to me.

362
00:17:10,276 --> 00:17:12,556
Speaker 4: I want to see like, you know, a strong guy

363
00:17:12,636 --> 00:17:15,156
Speaker 4: going crazy up there, or a strong gay like you know,

364
00:17:15,196 --> 00:17:17,876
Speaker 4: it wasn't we want to say all this stuff get

365
00:17:17,876 --> 00:17:20,996
Speaker 4: in your face, and we're a lot of us are sober, like.

366
00:17:20,956 --> 00:17:23,796
Speaker 1: You know, we mean this when you were never tempted

367
00:17:23,836 --> 00:17:26,956
Speaker 1: down that other path because you're downtown New York and

368
00:17:27,436 --> 00:17:28,436
Speaker 1: in the early age.

369
00:17:28,236 --> 00:17:29,036
Speaker 3: And it seems sexy.

370
00:17:29,076 --> 00:17:30,876
Speaker 4: Someone told me, Heroin, I didn't like when I got

371
00:17:30,916 --> 00:17:32,716
Speaker 4: the flu because I couldn't go out and do what

372
00:17:32,756 --> 00:17:34,676
Speaker 4: I like to do. And someone said, Heroin, if you

373
00:17:34,676 --> 00:17:36,236
Speaker 4: you know when you get sick, it's like the flu

374
00:17:36,716 --> 00:17:38,996
Speaker 4: times ten, and you know, you'd look over and it

375
00:17:39,076 --> 00:17:42,236
Speaker 4: was some scratchy you know, and it just didn't look

376
00:17:42,476 --> 00:17:43,036
Speaker 4: fun to me.

377
00:17:43,796 --> 00:17:46,596
Speaker 1: And you were exposed just enough to it to know that.

378
00:17:46,836 --> 00:17:49,596
Speaker 4: Yeah, And there were some people saying, like, you know,

379
00:17:49,676 --> 00:17:51,716
Speaker 4: you don't need to do that. I didn't understand. We

380
00:17:51,796 --> 00:17:54,396
Speaker 4: dragged to an after hours club and suddenly like, what

381
00:17:54,436 --> 00:17:56,876
Speaker 4: are they doing it? There's no bands, this music sucks,

382
00:17:56,876 --> 00:17:58,836
Speaker 4: there's sand on the floor like a beach, and why

383
00:17:58,876 --> 00:17:59,956
Speaker 4: these people Hitle seven?

384
00:18:00,516 --> 00:18:03,036
Speaker 3: Well, I know now, you know, it's like I just

385
00:18:03,036 --> 00:18:04,556
Speaker 3: thought they had a cold. I don't know the guys

386
00:18:04,556 --> 00:18:06,116
Speaker 3: snippe it. It was so naive, but.

387
00:18:06,556 --> 00:18:08,116
Speaker 4: It was always about the music, and I think my

388
00:18:08,196 --> 00:18:10,316
Speaker 4: mom trusted that so I could go to junior high

389
00:18:10,316 --> 00:18:12,716
Speaker 4: school and I could go to A seven and one

390
00:18:12,876 --> 00:18:15,756
Speaker 4: seventy one or CEB's or max Is. In the beginning,

391
00:18:16,036 --> 00:18:17,996
Speaker 4: the parents tried to like pick us up here and there,

392
00:18:18,036 --> 00:18:19,796
Speaker 4: but the shows in those days depends on to go

393
00:18:19,876 --> 00:18:21,876
Speaker 4: onto one or two, so they gave up on that

394
00:18:22,476 --> 00:18:24,596
Speaker 4: and then I'd sneak out. But like she knew, like

395
00:18:24,676 --> 00:18:27,956
Speaker 4: my son has this dream, he believes in music. And

396
00:18:27,996 --> 00:18:29,716
Speaker 4: by the time, you know, still that year of my

397
00:18:29,756 --> 00:18:32,116
Speaker 4: first record, we went to Mexico City did a tour.

398
00:18:32,156 --> 00:18:34,676
Speaker 4: When I was fourteen, things started to open up.

399
00:18:34,796 --> 00:18:36,516
Speaker 1: What was it like to be a fourteen year old

400
00:18:36,596 --> 00:18:39,916
Speaker 1: touring and seeing Mexico City, and you know.

401
00:18:40,076 --> 00:18:42,196
Speaker 4: It was interesting. I had to figure out, like, you know,

402
00:18:42,236 --> 00:18:44,516
Speaker 4: something nobody wants to talk to me in school, little

403
00:18:44,556 --> 00:18:46,756
Speaker 4: girls ever gave me. I felt like the biggest loser

404
00:18:46,756 --> 00:18:49,116
Speaker 4: and suddenly go, oh, there's somebody interested in me, Like

405
00:18:49,356 --> 00:18:50,116
Speaker 4: this is weird.

406
00:18:50,276 --> 00:18:51,996
Speaker 3: Or but to get to play.

407
00:18:51,756 --> 00:18:54,836
Speaker 4: Every night and learn how to control, you know, in

408
00:18:54,876 --> 00:18:56,996
Speaker 4: Mexico we did like ten shows in a row at

409
00:18:57,076 --> 00:18:59,876
Speaker 4: a place called hips and tenta, and like you know,

410
00:18:59,956 --> 00:19:02,396
Speaker 4: had to like, wow, I'm playing so hard I cut

411
00:19:02,436 --> 00:19:03,836
Speaker 4: my nail off and I'm.

412
00:19:03,756 --> 00:19:05,516
Speaker 3: Bleeding all over the SG guitar.

413
00:19:05,996 --> 00:19:08,236
Speaker 4: We got a gaff that I got to learn how

414
00:19:08,236 --> 00:19:10,236
Speaker 4: to control my I got to learn how to be

415
00:19:10,276 --> 00:19:13,116
Speaker 4: able to sustain this and have a tight show and

416
00:19:13,316 --> 00:19:16,836
Speaker 4: make flyers for each show with glue and cutting things

417
00:19:16,876 --> 00:19:19,716
Speaker 4: out and just learning in those early days, how to

418
00:19:19,756 --> 00:19:22,596
Speaker 4: make it happen when there's no label, there's no manager,

419
00:19:23,436 --> 00:19:26,316
Speaker 4: Learning how to book your own shows, all those diy

420
00:19:26,396 --> 00:19:28,876
Speaker 4: as they call it, kind of eat those that has

421
00:19:28,956 --> 00:19:31,716
Speaker 4: really stuck with me throughout, even when I was a singer,

422
00:19:31,796 --> 00:19:34,836
Speaker 4: songwriter or whatever, all through my music career, that there's

423
00:19:34,876 --> 00:19:38,116
Speaker 4: ways that we can make this happen. So that was

424
00:19:38,276 --> 00:19:40,316
Speaker 4: a lessons. The drummer I had at the time was

425
00:19:40,356 --> 00:19:42,916
Speaker 4: in his twenties and he was from Mexico and he

426
00:19:42,996 --> 00:19:45,436
Speaker 4: lived in a chemore hotel on twenty third Street, this

427
00:19:45,596 --> 00:19:48,436
Speaker 4: welfare spot, but like you know, hung out with older people.

428
00:19:48,476 --> 00:19:51,516
Speaker 4: I was the youngest, and I just wanted to know

429
00:19:51,596 --> 00:19:53,676
Speaker 4: more about the world and I wanted to be better,

430
00:19:54,156 --> 00:19:55,756
Speaker 4: and I was taking in these records.

431
00:19:56,196 --> 00:19:57,076
Speaker 3: You know, I was a kid too.

432
00:19:57,076 --> 00:19:58,796
Speaker 4: I had a lot of rules, like you only listen

433
00:19:58,836 --> 00:20:01,556
Speaker 4: to stuff that had certain kind of guitar. And I

434
00:20:01,636 --> 00:20:04,236
Speaker 4: was when Sandinista came out at that time by the

435
00:20:04,316 --> 00:20:06,676
Speaker 4: Clash and they were playing all these different styles of music.

436
00:20:06,716 --> 00:20:08,436
Speaker 4: I broke it into pieces. I was like, give me

437
00:20:08,476 --> 00:20:11,316
Speaker 4: a dead ken. I rebought it four years later. I

438
00:20:11,356 --> 00:20:13,276
Speaker 4: was like, they're right. I was wrong, but I'm like,

439
00:20:13,276 --> 00:20:16,716
Speaker 4: they're playing disco, they're selling out, you know they're selling

440
00:20:16,756 --> 00:20:18,476
Speaker 4: I didn't go to Bonds when the Clash came. I

441
00:20:18,476 --> 00:20:21,116
Speaker 4: saw him at London calling, but like my favorite band,

442
00:20:21,156 --> 00:20:24,556
Speaker 4: suddenly they were hipper than I was blending the world,

443
00:20:24,596 --> 00:20:26,916
Speaker 4: bringing it all together. That hip hop was the music

444
00:20:26,956 --> 00:20:28,836
Speaker 4: of the streets and had a message and it was

445
00:20:28,876 --> 00:20:31,676
Speaker 4: a punk rock in its own way. But at the time,

446
00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:34,916
Speaker 4: at that age, I needed things in boxes. I needed

447
00:20:34,956 --> 00:20:37,276
Speaker 4: you know, this is hardcore. This is what we're doing.

448
00:20:37,716 --> 00:20:41,436
Speaker 1: Well, it's identity at that edge, yeah, and your identities,

449
00:20:41,596 --> 00:20:43,556
Speaker 1: you know, that's how you differentiate yourself.

450
00:20:43,716 --> 00:20:46,476
Speaker 4: And we were competitive to who was fastest, who was tightest,

451
00:20:46,476 --> 00:20:48,556
Speaker 4: who got the mash bit going the most, and you know,

452
00:20:48,676 --> 00:20:52,196
Speaker 4: got the action happening and the bad Brains asked heart

453
00:20:52,236 --> 00:20:54,436
Speaker 4: Attack to open for them at Irving Plaza, their first

454
00:20:54,516 --> 00:20:57,516
Speaker 4: big gig, and I was really surprised. We got a

455
00:20:57,516 --> 00:21:00,956
Speaker 4: song called God Is Dead. They were very religious Rastafarian,

456
00:21:01,236 --> 00:21:03,396
Speaker 4: yet we got this big show and they were so

457
00:21:03,476 --> 00:21:05,596
Speaker 4: good to us. And you know, to see these different

458
00:21:05,596 --> 00:21:10,276
Speaker 4: things develop and to watch that scene grow, like I said,

459
00:21:10,316 --> 00:21:13,156
Speaker 4: just organically. And if you went on tour, people put

460
00:21:13,196 --> 00:21:15,356
Speaker 4: you up on their floor. People you know, you booked

461
00:21:15,356 --> 00:21:17,236
Speaker 4: a whole tour on like a stolen credit card you

462
00:21:17,276 --> 00:21:19,836
Speaker 4: bought on forty second Street to some phone card, and

463
00:21:19,876 --> 00:21:21,996
Speaker 4: you were able to go across this country. And when

464
00:21:21,996 --> 00:21:24,116
Speaker 4: you got to San Francisco, the guy had the fanzine

465
00:21:24,116 --> 00:21:26,076
Speaker 4: in there, Maxim Rock and Roll, Timy Hanna, and he

466
00:21:26,156 --> 00:21:28,396
Speaker 4: put you up on his couch and turn you out,

467
00:21:28,476 --> 00:21:30,796
Speaker 4: let you make a mixtape of his record collection, or

468
00:21:31,276 --> 00:21:33,916
Speaker 4: and you'd meet another band. And it was just a thing.

469
00:21:34,396 --> 00:21:36,756
Speaker 4: And watching that and being part of that was exciting.

470
00:21:37,276 --> 00:21:41,716
Speaker 4: Until around eighty four it became a little too macho

471
00:21:41,796 --> 00:21:44,556
Speaker 4: for me, a little too metal, this hybrid kind of thing,

472
00:21:45,076 --> 00:21:47,636
Speaker 4: and it started to get extra violent. And it wasn't

473
00:21:47,676 --> 00:21:49,836
Speaker 4: guys and gals on the dance floor, and it wasn't

474
00:21:50,236 --> 00:21:52,396
Speaker 4: gay and straight in this and it was like became

475
00:21:52,476 --> 00:21:55,396
Speaker 4: this metal, macho thing, which was everything I was trying

476
00:21:55,436 --> 00:21:58,676
Speaker 4: to get away from in Queens. So I felt I

477
00:21:58,836 --> 00:22:01,116
Speaker 4: dropped out a broke up heart attack in eighty four

478
00:22:01,556 --> 00:22:04,836
Speaker 4: and last gig was at CBGB's fourth of July, and

479
00:22:04,876 --> 00:22:07,036
Speaker 4: it was the first Chromax gig. They were on the bill,

480
00:22:07,116 --> 00:22:08,916
Speaker 4: and I remember that was part of the new thing.

481
00:22:09,236 --> 00:22:12,916
Speaker 4: They were great, but it was going to become this other, heavier,

482
00:22:13,236 --> 00:22:17,196
Speaker 4: more metal type of thing, and that would go on

483
00:22:17,276 --> 00:22:19,276
Speaker 4: and get a lot bigger and now even bigger than

484
00:22:19,276 --> 00:22:22,756
Speaker 4: ever since then. But I started to want to write

485
00:22:22,836 --> 00:22:26,676
Speaker 4: songs like the songs where lyrics mattered, and I started

486
00:22:26,676 --> 00:22:29,716
Speaker 4: listening to things from my early early youth, like Jim

487
00:22:29,796 --> 00:22:35,796
Speaker 4: Crochey and Elton John and somehow I stumbled upon Bruce

488
00:22:35,836 --> 00:22:38,356
Speaker 4: Springsteen's Nebraska. And I'd never been a fan.

489
00:22:39,036 --> 00:22:40,796
Speaker 1: I thought you would have been one of those fans

490
00:22:40,796 --> 00:22:42,716
Speaker 1: from the beginning. But it was Nebraska that day.

491
00:22:42,876 --> 00:22:45,396
Speaker 4: It had long his other records had long songs. It

492
00:22:45,476 --> 00:22:47,076
Speaker 4: was in a deep voice. It was a lot of

493
00:22:47,116 --> 00:22:49,836
Speaker 4: instruments and sacks, and I didn't really know what he

494
00:22:49,876 --> 00:22:52,676
Speaker 4: was singing about. I wasn't from Jersey. I thought it

495
00:22:52,876 --> 00:22:56,516
Speaker 4: he was singing about it just yeah, all these things

496
00:22:56,556 --> 00:22:57,676
Speaker 4: that didn't fit in my box.

497
00:22:57,716 --> 00:22:59,996
Speaker 3: He had a beard, you know, it was like, to

498
00:22:59,996 --> 00:23:02,356
Speaker 3: be honest, I mean, I love the guy. Now I

499
00:23:02,396 --> 00:23:03,556
Speaker 3: was a person at edits an art.

500
00:23:03,636 --> 00:23:06,356
Speaker 4: But then I heard Nebraska and I said, whoa, this

501
00:23:06,436 --> 00:23:09,916
Speaker 4: guy is, this big rock star and this record is

502
00:23:09,996 --> 00:23:11,876
Speaker 4: just him And you know, I'd already had all this

503
00:23:12,276 --> 00:23:16,476
Speaker 4: punk rock political caring and social ideas about the world

504
00:23:16,556 --> 00:23:19,796
Speaker 4: and the underclass, and he's singing about this in such

505
00:23:19,996 --> 00:23:22,156
Speaker 4: a great way and it's haunting, and I couldn't get

506
00:23:22,236 --> 00:23:24,876
Speaker 4: enough of it. And so when Born in the USA

507
00:23:24,996 --> 00:23:27,516
Speaker 4: came out, I was a fan. And all my friends

508
00:23:27,556 --> 00:23:29,756
Speaker 4: on the scene were like, what's with this major label

509
00:23:29,836 --> 00:23:31,396
Speaker 4: rambo shit? And I was like, have you read the

510
00:23:31,476 --> 00:23:34,156
Speaker 4: lyric sheet? Like half these people end up in jail.

511
00:23:34,276 --> 00:23:37,836
Speaker 4: This is not And yeah, that mixed message to America

512
00:23:37,836 --> 00:23:39,676
Speaker 4: probably made them a lot of money that people thought

513
00:23:39,716 --> 00:23:41,836
Speaker 4: it was, you know, pickup trucks and you're in the USA.

514
00:23:41,996 --> 00:23:44,516
Speaker 4: But and then I realized this guy's deal. And then

515
00:23:45,116 --> 00:23:48,516
Speaker 4: I found another record that same time, at which I

516
00:23:48,556 --> 00:23:51,956
Speaker 4: called the punk rock Nebraska, which was Johnny Thunder's Hurt Me,

517
00:23:52,236 --> 00:23:55,196
Speaker 4: and it was an acoustic solo record in the early eighties,

518
00:23:55,236 --> 00:23:56,916
Speaker 4: and it was in my rehearsal studio. One of the

519
00:23:56,996 --> 00:24:00,436
Speaker 4: other bands had their records there in a turntable, and

520
00:24:00,956 --> 00:24:04,436
Speaker 4: it was just Johnny Thunders alone playing his songs and

521
00:24:04,476 --> 00:24:07,956
Speaker 4: a few covers Joey by Bob Dylan and Eva Destruction

522
00:24:08,076 --> 00:24:11,596
Speaker 4: Barry Maguire, and it had a great thing. Sometimes it

523
00:24:11,676 --> 00:24:14,276
Speaker 4: sounded like a whiny junkie screaming in a little closet,

524
00:24:14,316 --> 00:24:17,396
Speaker 4: but other times there was something. And I started busking

525
00:24:17,396 --> 00:24:19,956
Speaker 4: in the L train on fourteenth at First Avenue in

526
00:24:19,956 --> 00:24:22,356
Speaker 4: New York, just make some extra money, and I would

527
00:24:22,476 --> 00:24:25,116
Speaker 4: sing my own new songs and I would throw in

528
00:24:25,156 --> 00:24:27,236
Speaker 4: some oldies and then I'd try to make like Ramone

529
00:24:27,276 --> 00:24:29,996
Speaker 4: songs sound like fifty songs next to the Dion song.

530
00:24:29,836 --> 00:24:31,516
Speaker 3: And I'd make like got seventy bucks.

531
00:24:31,876 --> 00:24:33,556
Speaker 4: But that's when I started to realize that when an

532
00:24:33,556 --> 00:24:37,476
Speaker 4: acoustic guitar, I could write songs bring it down. And

533
00:24:37,516 --> 00:24:39,476
Speaker 4: I wanted to try something different.

534
00:24:39,516 --> 00:24:41,876
Speaker 1: And you were always writing on electric At this point I.

535
00:24:41,876 --> 00:24:44,836
Speaker 4: Had always been before yeah, and that I wanted to

536
00:24:44,836 --> 00:24:47,236
Speaker 4: present these songs. And then I'd go to some clubs.

537
00:24:47,236 --> 00:24:49,516
Speaker 4: There was a great club called Dance Materyria that booked

538
00:24:49,556 --> 00:24:53,036
Speaker 4: people that were coming up, and I saw the Pogues

539
00:24:53,076 --> 00:24:56,276
Speaker 4: and the Replacements, and I saw Billy Bragg, and here's

540
00:24:56,316 --> 00:24:58,556
Speaker 4: a guy. He's very punky, but it's him alone with

541
00:24:58,636 --> 00:25:01,796
Speaker 4: an electric and he's got these political love songs and

542
00:25:01,836 --> 00:25:06,076
Speaker 4: he's got his vulnerabilities out there. So between Billy Bragg,

543
00:25:06,436 --> 00:25:09,516
Speaker 4: the Replacements, who weren't scared to do a ballad, this

544
00:25:09,636 --> 00:25:12,356
Speaker 4: Johnny Thunders record, and then I started, you know, going

545
00:25:12,356 --> 00:25:15,996
Speaker 4: back to Elvis Costello and Graham Parker, and I was like, yeah,

546
00:25:15,996 --> 00:25:18,076
Speaker 4: I want to do these these kind of song things.

547
00:25:18,156 --> 00:25:20,716
Speaker 4: And my first gig I started a band called Hope,

548
00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:23,876
Speaker 4: and all my punk rock friends had acoustic guitar started

549
00:25:23,876 --> 00:25:26,356
Speaker 4: calling me, Jesse Cougar Mallencamp.

550
00:25:28,236 --> 00:25:30,196
Speaker 2: We'll be back with more from Jesse Mallin and Bruce

551
00:25:30,196 --> 00:25:31,716
Speaker 2: Hadlam after the break.

552
00:25:35,916 --> 00:25:37,436
Speaker 1: So he became a singer songwriter.

553
00:25:37,716 --> 00:25:39,796
Speaker 4: And I did in a band called Hope, and I

554
00:25:39,956 --> 00:25:41,876
Speaker 4: tried to do everything that I would do in the

555
00:25:41,876 --> 00:25:45,716
Speaker 4: early two thousands, but I couldn't get that band off

556
00:25:45,716 --> 00:25:48,076
Speaker 4: the ground. I couldn't get us recorded outside of a demo.

557
00:25:48,436 --> 00:25:51,236
Speaker 4: We'd play with like the Meat Puppets and Sonic youth

558
00:25:51,356 --> 00:25:53,596
Speaker 4: and Radit red art from heart attack. I had a

559
00:25:53,636 --> 00:25:57,196
Speaker 4: connection into the noise art scene that was coming out

560
00:25:57,196 --> 00:25:59,156
Speaker 4: of some of the clubs here. So we would play

561
00:25:59,196 --> 00:26:02,836
Speaker 4: on bills with Live Skull and it red our sonic youth.

562
00:26:02,916 --> 00:26:06,796
Speaker 4: Swans and Hope did our time for a little bit,

563
00:26:06,916 --> 00:26:08,836
Speaker 4: but it was a weird time for me. My mom

564
00:26:08,876 --> 00:26:10,996
Speaker 4: got and I had to go back to Queens. Was

565
00:26:10,996 --> 00:26:14,036
Speaker 4: living in my rehearsal studio on Avenue B and I

566
00:26:14,036 --> 00:26:16,796
Speaker 4: had to take care of her and my sister, and

567
00:26:16,876 --> 00:26:19,436
Speaker 4: so I decided I could move my gear. If I

568
00:26:19,476 --> 00:26:21,956
Speaker 4: got a cheap used van, I could become a moving guy.

569
00:26:22,756 --> 00:26:26,956
Speaker 4: So I started moving bands and gear from like rehearsal

570
00:26:26,956 --> 00:26:29,676
Speaker 4: spots in Midtown down to clubs and coming back at

571
00:26:29,676 --> 00:26:31,676
Speaker 4: the end of the night. Sometimes I'd watched the show

572
00:26:32,076 --> 00:26:35,556
Speaker 4: and anything furniture and pianos and dead dogs and everybody

573
00:26:35,556 --> 00:26:39,556
Speaker 4: from Barbarus dreis in to you know, some junkie that's

574
00:26:39,556 --> 00:26:40,756
Speaker 4: getting thrown out the window.

575
00:26:40,836 --> 00:26:42,876
Speaker 3: You know from there they're getting evicted.

576
00:26:42,876 --> 00:26:45,276
Speaker 4: And we'd go everywhere. I met a lot of artists

577
00:26:45,276 --> 00:26:48,236
Speaker 4: doing that, and I had a rough five years between

578
00:26:48,396 --> 00:26:51,676
Speaker 4: my mom passing away eventually and I couldn't get this

579
00:26:51,716 --> 00:26:55,036
Speaker 4: band off the ground. So I ended up after my

580
00:26:55,076 --> 00:26:57,596
Speaker 4: mom passed, moving to green Point, Brooklyn with a few friends,

581
00:26:58,116 --> 00:27:00,556
Speaker 4: and I kept trying to do this earnest songwriter thing.

582
00:27:01,116 --> 00:27:03,276
Speaker 4: And I was living with this guy, Howie Pyro, who

583
00:27:03,356 --> 00:27:05,676
Speaker 4: had been in The Blessed and been in a band

584
00:27:05,676 --> 00:27:08,676
Speaker 4: called Freaks and done all these things. And I said,

585
00:27:08,876 --> 00:27:10,876
Speaker 4: this is just make a band for fun where you know,

586
00:27:10,876 --> 00:27:13,156
Speaker 4: I don't play guitar and I just jump around and

587
00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:15,196
Speaker 4: roll on the floor and take my shirt off and yell,

588
00:27:15,236 --> 00:27:17,716
Speaker 4: and we'll make like the band we wanted to see

589
00:27:17,716 --> 00:27:20,276
Speaker 4: when we were little kids, like that five headed thing,

590
00:27:20,396 --> 00:27:22,436
Speaker 4: like the Dolls or the Dead Boys, or you know,

591
00:27:22,476 --> 00:27:25,516
Speaker 4: Aerosmith were rolling stones like but a punky And so

592
00:27:25,596 --> 00:27:28,636
Speaker 4: we made Degeneration and it was just for for goof

593
00:27:29,476 --> 00:27:31,916
Speaker 4: And suddenly that connected because we just did it totally

594
00:27:31,916 --> 00:27:34,916
Speaker 4: for fun. Suddenly the shows are crowded. It's a band,

595
00:27:34,956 --> 00:27:37,356
Speaker 4: it's a gang. It's all people that knew each other

596
00:27:37,476 --> 00:27:40,476
Speaker 4: from the hardcore days. So it's like kind of some

597
00:27:40,476 --> 00:27:42,836
Speaker 4: people would say a glam band meets a hardcore band.

598
00:27:42,876 --> 00:27:45,196
Speaker 4: I don't really think of as as glam, but you know,

599
00:27:45,276 --> 00:27:47,956
Speaker 4: we thought we were doing something so different we had,

600
00:27:48,116 --> 00:27:51,836
Speaker 4: you know, brothel creepers or feet standing tall, tight pants

601
00:27:51,836 --> 00:27:55,676
Speaker 4: and messy hair and messy ms. Garon had crazy dreads

602
00:27:55,716 --> 00:27:58,116
Speaker 4: and hair extensions, and so people looked at that and

603
00:27:58,156 --> 00:27:59,996
Speaker 4: talked about that and they listen to the song. So

604
00:28:00,076 --> 00:28:01,196
Speaker 4: that became frustrating.

605
00:28:01,236 --> 00:28:01,396
Speaker 2: You know.

606
00:28:01,516 --> 00:28:03,716
Speaker 4: It was a good seven years and we made records

607
00:28:04,156 --> 00:28:06,516
Speaker 4: in major cities. We had a good time everywhere else

608
00:28:06,876 --> 00:28:09,036
Speaker 4: it was like us fighting with the crowd.

609
00:28:09,476 --> 00:28:12,556
Speaker 1: So in that period where you had that band, Yeah,

610
00:28:12,596 --> 00:28:16,236
Speaker 1: you've got a tour to make money? Obviously, yes and no.

611
00:28:16,716 --> 00:28:20,156
Speaker 4: Because we got a huge record deal and we had money,

612
00:28:20,276 --> 00:28:22,876
Speaker 4: we broke it up so we would not take it all.

613
00:28:22,956 --> 00:28:23,236
Speaker 3: Whatever.

614
00:28:23,316 --> 00:28:24,916
Speaker 4: We use some on the record, and then we gave

615
00:28:24,956 --> 00:28:28,476
Speaker 4: each other like a weekly or every two weeks so

616
00:28:28,516 --> 00:28:30,836
Speaker 4: we could stay in New York and become junkies and

617
00:28:30,876 --> 00:28:33,076
Speaker 4: stuff like a lot of people did. But we did

618
00:28:33,116 --> 00:28:36,756
Speaker 4: want a tour. But at that time New York, the nineties,

619
00:28:36,796 --> 00:28:39,556
Speaker 4: we were like the big band in the scene in downtown.

620
00:28:39,676 --> 00:28:42,156
Speaker 3: We didn't like to go about fourteenth Street because it

621
00:28:42,356 --> 00:28:44,716
Speaker 3: wasn't easy for us. So we did tour.

622
00:28:44,796 --> 00:28:47,636
Speaker 4: We went out with the Ramones, and you know, you

623
00:28:47,636 --> 00:28:49,956
Speaker 4: don't get paid a lot opening but we learned a lot,

624
00:28:50,116 --> 00:28:51,996
Speaker 4: and those guys were so generous to us. And I

625
00:28:51,996 --> 00:28:54,836
Speaker 4: became friends with Joey, who just loved music.

626
00:28:54,996 --> 00:28:56,076
Speaker 3: Like his mo was.

627
00:28:56,596 --> 00:28:59,516
Speaker 4: He wasn't about sex, drugs or money. It was like

628
00:28:59,556 --> 00:29:01,996
Speaker 4: he just listened to music. He was, you know, kind

629
00:29:02,036 --> 00:29:03,716
Speaker 4: of a real misfit and had a lot of health

630
00:29:03,756 --> 00:29:06,436
Speaker 4: things and it was a creature from a different type

631
00:29:06,476 --> 00:29:08,676
Speaker 4: of thing. So he just so passionate. He used to

632
00:29:09,356 --> 00:29:11,836
Speaker 4: on our tour bus. They were in a van, smart

633
00:29:11,916 --> 00:29:14,596
Speaker 4: saving money because they knew bus and we're in this

634
00:29:14,636 --> 00:29:17,236
Speaker 4: big record company supported bus and he didn't want to

635
00:29:17,236 --> 00:29:17,956
Speaker 4: be around his band.

636
00:29:17,956 --> 00:29:19,116
Speaker 3: He'd be sitting in there with us.

637
00:29:19,116 --> 00:29:21,996
Speaker 1: Oh interesting. I love the jump from van to bus.

638
00:29:22,196 --> 00:29:23,516
Speaker 1: It's all about transportation.

639
00:29:24,116 --> 00:29:25,916
Speaker 3: It is funny. And you hate the van.

640
00:29:26,036 --> 00:29:27,796
Speaker 4: You think, oh man, I could go my bunk now

641
00:29:27,836 --> 00:29:30,036
Speaker 4: and I can listen to music and I can you know,

642
00:29:30,596 --> 00:29:34,396
Speaker 4: be alone and sleep. But I feel like you're tighter

643
00:29:34,436 --> 00:29:37,956
Speaker 4: as a band connectively as people like you get along

644
00:29:37,996 --> 00:29:40,156
Speaker 4: better in the van, Like you listen to the same thing,

645
00:29:40,276 --> 00:29:42,436
Speaker 4: you get same kind of jokes. It's like summer camp,

646
00:29:42,676 --> 00:29:45,076
Speaker 4: you know. It's like there's a camaraderie that once you

647
00:29:45,156 --> 00:29:47,916
Speaker 4: get in the bus. Everybody's like a separate thing, and

648
00:29:48,556 --> 00:29:52,396
Speaker 4: at least that's what I've experienced. But yeah, we did tour,

649
00:29:52,876 --> 00:29:55,236
Speaker 4: and we toured. We did that band for seven years.

650
00:29:55,236 --> 00:29:57,836
Speaker 4: We were on EMI, they were on Sony. We kept

651
00:29:57,876 --> 00:30:00,796
Speaker 4: getting we got dropped, and then we got another record deal.

652
00:30:00,916 --> 00:30:02,676
Speaker 4: I thought, I'm gonna have to sell shoes on Saint

653
00:30:02,716 --> 00:30:05,436
Speaker 4: Mark's place or go back to moving furniture, but like

654
00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:06,356
Speaker 4: somebody said, no.

655
00:30:06,356 --> 00:30:07,356
Speaker 3: You're gonna get another deal.

656
00:30:07,396 --> 00:30:09,436
Speaker 4: And I'm like all the bands I knew they had

657
00:30:09,436 --> 00:30:11,156
Speaker 4: that one shot in the eighties to try to be

658
00:30:11,196 --> 00:30:13,676
Speaker 4: the next Guns and Roses whatever they ended up, right,

659
00:30:13,836 --> 00:30:16,316
Speaker 4: And now this is the ear is nineties, you know,

660
00:30:16,356 --> 00:30:18,236
Speaker 4: grunge and all that stuff is in. So we're trying

661
00:30:18,236 --> 00:30:21,036
Speaker 4: to be the reaction to that, Like we're not gonna

662
00:30:21,036 --> 00:30:23,196
Speaker 4: wear flannel and look like a farm or a gas

663
00:30:23,196 --> 00:30:25,716
Speaker 4: station attendant, Like we want to look like a band

664
00:30:25,716 --> 00:30:27,916
Speaker 4: and have this thing. And we had a thing whatever

665
00:30:27,956 --> 00:30:30,196
Speaker 4: the music is and whatever people feel about that, and

666
00:30:30,276 --> 00:30:32,556
Speaker 4: I like some of the songs. We had a thing

667
00:30:32,596 --> 00:30:34,756
Speaker 4: as people where it was it was real, so we

668
00:30:34,796 --> 00:30:37,356
Speaker 4: could be really intense or really down on each other,

669
00:30:37,396 --> 00:30:41,396
Speaker 4: but it was it was organic friendship, gang connection, to

670
00:30:41,556 --> 00:30:45,956
Speaker 4: music that worked on stage. And after about seven years

671
00:30:45,956 --> 00:30:48,476
Speaker 4: of doing that, and you know, we went to Europe

672
00:30:48,516 --> 00:30:52,036
Speaker 4: and toured with Green Day and you know, Ramones and

673
00:30:52,476 --> 00:30:54,836
Speaker 4: all kinds of bands and some of our heroes and stuff,

674
00:30:54,876 --> 00:30:58,996
Speaker 4: and then I just felt again like similar heart attack

675
00:30:59,076 --> 00:31:03,516
Speaker 4: that nobody could really they weren't caring again about the lyrics,

676
00:31:03,556 --> 00:31:05,396
Speaker 4: what we were singing about. They were just talking about

677
00:31:05,396 --> 00:31:08,556
Speaker 4: our outfits and shoes. And at that point the moshpit

678
00:31:08,676 --> 00:31:11,596
Speaker 4: came back again. We were be out with Offspring or

679
00:31:11,636 --> 00:31:13,916
Speaker 4: these bands, and the whole punk thing was the next

680
00:31:13,916 --> 00:31:16,516
Speaker 4: wave of that, the nineties, rancid, Green Day, Offspring type

681
00:31:16,556 --> 00:31:18,876
Speaker 4: of time. And so the whole show was about if

682
00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:21,396
Speaker 4: we can get them dancing all crazy, and they weren't

683
00:31:21,436 --> 00:31:24,276
Speaker 4: listening to songs. So I'm sitting in the van. We're

684
00:31:24,316 --> 00:31:27,116
Speaker 4: back in the van or on the bus, and I'm

685
00:31:27,156 --> 00:31:30,996
Speaker 4: listening to Neil Young again. I'm listening to Springsteen, and

686
00:31:31,036 --> 00:31:34,956
Speaker 4: now I'm listening to Cannon Crows and Will Go, and

687
00:31:34,996 --> 00:31:37,636
Speaker 4: there's these other things that are out there. Steve Earl

688
00:31:37,716 --> 00:31:39,516
Speaker 4: sudden I hear that and I'm like, wow, this has

689
00:31:39,876 --> 00:31:43,716
Speaker 4: rock and roll, but there's songs. And suddenly Lucinda Williams

690
00:31:43,996 --> 00:31:45,916
Speaker 4: and I called up Jerry Moone and I said, I'm

691
00:31:45,956 --> 00:31:48,396
Speaker 4: listening to this woman. Louten to Williams here, because he'd

692
00:31:48,396 --> 00:31:50,916
Speaker 4: always say jokes, what are you listening to? We call

693
00:31:50,996 --> 00:31:53,676
Speaker 4: every day, and I said, listen to Williams. He's on

694
00:31:53,716 --> 00:31:54,796
Speaker 4: a Steve Earld record.

695
00:31:54,596 --> 00:31:57,316
Speaker 3: And he said, I know, huh. I was like, how

696
00:31:57,356 --> 00:31:59,796
Speaker 3: do you? I was on like a songwritere a paddle

697
00:31:59,836 --> 00:32:01,836
Speaker 3: with her at the bottom line, you know, and I

698
00:32:01,876 --> 00:32:02,516
Speaker 3: was like wow.

699
00:32:02,596 --> 00:32:06,516
Speaker 4: And then years later I'd meet Lucinda Williams and I said, yeah, Joey.

700
00:32:06,196 --> 00:32:06,916
Speaker 2: And she goes, oh, yeah.

701
00:32:06,956 --> 00:32:07,916
Speaker 3: He sent me a song.

702
00:32:08,036 --> 00:32:09,756
Speaker 4: He had a song you want Me to Ride about

703
00:32:09,756 --> 00:32:12,916
Speaker 4: a train and he was passed away by them when

704
00:32:12,956 --> 00:32:16,716
Speaker 4: I met Lucinda. But I I just kind of was

705
00:32:16,716 --> 00:32:20,316
Speaker 4: looking again to break it down to go solo. And

706
00:32:20,396 --> 00:32:23,276
Speaker 4: I watched suddenly people were coming out with acoustic guitars

707
00:32:23,276 --> 00:32:25,956
Speaker 4: and approaching it. Maybe it was called old country now

708
00:32:26,036 --> 00:32:28,836
Speaker 4: or whatever, like there's all these different eras where rock

709
00:32:28,876 --> 00:32:30,916
Speaker 4: and country. Maybe it's the birds, and then in the

710
00:32:30,996 --> 00:32:34,076
Speaker 4: seventies in La it's with the Eagles and this or right,

711
00:32:34,156 --> 00:32:35,716
Speaker 4: you know, then you have rank and file in the

712
00:32:35,756 --> 00:32:39,436
Speaker 4: late you know, whatever, long riders and and to me,

713
00:32:39,796 --> 00:32:42,756
Speaker 4: it don't need those separate boxes. I was like, I

714
00:32:42,756 --> 00:32:45,316
Speaker 4: don't know, can I be a solo guy? That seemed

715
00:32:45,556 --> 00:32:47,716
Speaker 4: like very adult to me. I was scared, you know.

716
00:32:47,756 --> 00:32:49,236
Speaker 4: I was like, like being in a band.

717
00:32:49,436 --> 00:32:53,316
Speaker 1: What kept you? I mean at this point, you're thirty, yeah,

718
00:32:53,436 --> 00:32:56,716
Speaker 1: early thirties. It's a tough life. Yeah, very hard life.

719
00:32:56,756 --> 00:32:59,156
Speaker 1: You're leading you know all these ups and downs? What

720
00:32:59,636 --> 00:33:02,676
Speaker 1: a lot of people did drop out? What kept you going?

721
00:33:03,716 --> 00:33:03,876
Speaker 4: Just?

722
00:33:03,956 --> 00:33:06,436
Speaker 3: I guess the love of music to drive.

723
00:33:06,516 --> 00:33:09,556
Speaker 4: Always had a lot of drive and always excited about

724
00:33:09,556 --> 00:33:11,316
Speaker 4: the next thing that I was going to make and

725
00:33:11,716 --> 00:33:12,996
Speaker 4: having something that was there.

726
00:33:12,996 --> 00:33:14,236
Speaker 3: If I woke up and I was like.

727
00:33:14,636 --> 00:33:16,036
Speaker 4: Wow, I don't know if I want to go on

728
00:33:16,076 --> 00:33:18,876
Speaker 4: stage and hit myself at the microphone and scream, you know,

729
00:33:19,036 --> 00:33:22,596
Speaker 4: Frankie for degeneration tonight. I kind of want to play

730
00:33:22,636 --> 00:33:25,876
Speaker 4: this acoustic guitar and have some people hear these songs.

731
00:33:25,876 --> 00:33:28,516
Speaker 4: And I think there's a way to present this that

732
00:33:28,596 --> 00:33:31,356
Speaker 4: could not be just me sitting on a stool with

733
00:33:31,436 --> 00:33:33,836
Speaker 4: hush puppies, growing a mustache and be not that there's

734
00:33:33,836 --> 00:33:36,636
Speaker 4: anything wrong with that, but like that I can find

735
00:33:36,636 --> 00:33:38,716
Speaker 4: a way to be me and sing these New York

736
00:33:38,796 --> 00:33:43,196
Speaker 4: story kind of songs and still be the songwriter guy,

737
00:33:43,196 --> 00:33:46,156
Speaker 4: but come from where I come from, hardcore or whatever,

738
00:33:46,196 --> 00:33:48,756
Speaker 4: and I really want to do this. I have this idea,

739
00:33:48,796 --> 00:33:51,996
Speaker 4: and so somebody was nice enough to give me a

740
00:33:52,036 --> 00:33:54,836
Speaker 4: weekly residency at a club called Brownies on Avenue A

741
00:33:54,996 --> 00:33:57,636
Speaker 4: and go in there and I grabbed a piano player,

742
00:33:57,676 --> 00:34:00,636
Speaker 4: this guy, Joe McGuinty, and we rehearsed in you know,

743
00:34:00,676 --> 00:34:03,396
Speaker 4: a little rehearsal studio, and I take my acoustic songs

744
00:34:03,396 --> 00:34:04,796
Speaker 4: and then he play a little piano on them, and

745
00:34:04,876 --> 00:34:07,236
Speaker 4: suddenly it became like, wow, there's a song there, or

746
00:34:08,036 --> 00:34:10,436
Speaker 4: you know, and I was thinking about Tom Waits, and

747
00:34:10,476 --> 00:34:12,196
Speaker 4: I was thinking about Nick Cave, and I was thinking

748
00:34:12,196 --> 00:34:15,356
Speaker 4: about Nebraska Springsteen. But then it came out to be

749
00:34:15,436 --> 00:34:17,836
Speaker 4: something different and have a place to do this every

750
00:34:18,116 --> 00:34:21,316
Speaker 4: Wednesday night for a month or two. You know, one

751
00:34:21,356 --> 00:34:22,796
Speaker 4: gig is like ten rehearsals.

752
00:34:22,836 --> 00:34:25,556
Speaker 1: So yeah, was there a time when you know, you

753
00:34:25,596 --> 00:34:29,156
Speaker 1: started writing songs in those voices? Were you sitting there

754
00:34:29,156 --> 00:34:31,836
Speaker 1: going this is a Tom Waite song? Ah, this is

755
00:34:31,996 --> 00:34:34,556
Speaker 1: this song? Was there a moment where he thought, wait

756
00:34:34,556 --> 00:34:37,716
Speaker 1: a second, it's my song now, wasn't so aware of it.

757
00:34:37,836 --> 00:34:37,996
Speaker 2: You know.

758
00:34:38,116 --> 00:34:41,316
Speaker 4: Usually you have some smart a musician, usually it's the drummer,

759
00:34:41,356 --> 00:34:43,116
Speaker 4: and you bring it a song and they say, oh yeah,

760
00:34:43,116 --> 00:34:44,996
Speaker 4: and they start singing the song that you read it

761
00:34:45,036 --> 00:34:48,476
Speaker 4: all from or whatever they think, or and everything comes

762
00:34:48,476 --> 00:34:50,436
Speaker 4: from something, you know. I think it's how you mix

763
00:34:50,476 --> 00:34:52,156
Speaker 4: it up in the pot. You could take, you know,

764
00:34:52,196 --> 00:34:54,276
Speaker 4: all these different ingredients and spit it out in your

765
00:34:54,276 --> 00:34:58,196
Speaker 4: own way. But I wasn't aware till I started to

766
00:34:58,236 --> 00:34:59,356
Speaker 4: read the reviews.

767
00:34:59,556 --> 00:34:59,756
Speaker 3: You know.

768
00:35:00,076 --> 00:35:02,436
Speaker 4: Then when I first solo record came out in England,

769
00:35:02,476 --> 00:35:05,836
Speaker 4: first it got some reviews that were more positive than

770
00:35:06,036 --> 00:35:08,476
Speaker 4: a lot of things I had experienced in a long time.

771
00:35:08,556 --> 00:35:11,156
Speaker 4: And let those people say, you explain.

772
00:35:10,876 --> 00:35:12,716
Speaker 3: What it was, And I was like, oh really, all right,

773
00:35:12,756 --> 00:35:13,356
Speaker 3: you know they.

774
00:35:13,236 --> 00:35:14,436
Speaker 4: Hear and it was nice.

775
00:35:14,476 --> 00:35:15,676
Speaker 3: It was the first time though.

776
00:35:15,956 --> 00:35:19,436
Speaker 4: We're like they got both sides of Queen's Boulevard, the Borrow,

777
00:35:19,556 --> 00:35:22,156
Speaker 4: like yes, I'm in a garf Ucal and Johnny thunders,

778
00:35:22,196 --> 00:35:24,676
Speaker 4: you know, like they got that that I was, you know,

779
00:35:24,916 --> 00:35:27,556
Speaker 4: a creature of both those worlds. That that and when

780
00:35:27,556 --> 00:35:29,916
Speaker 4: you read a review, they say you shouldn't read your press,

781
00:35:29,916 --> 00:35:32,316
Speaker 4: but when it they're getting what you were setting out

782
00:35:32,316 --> 00:35:34,716
Speaker 4: to do, which had never been the case with degeneration,

783
00:35:35,156 --> 00:35:37,076
Speaker 4: and you kind of feel like, wow, maybe I'm onto

784
00:35:37,116 --> 00:35:39,556
Speaker 4: something here. You know, people are connecting to this.

785
00:35:40,436 --> 00:35:44,436
Speaker 1: Is it harder to grow up in music in New

786
00:35:44,556 --> 00:35:48,356
Speaker 1: York because in a lot of places it's not that

787
00:35:48,396 --> 00:35:51,236
Speaker 1: their standards are lower, but if you're the local band,

788
00:35:51,236 --> 00:35:53,476
Speaker 1: they're kind of happy for you. There's not too many

789
00:35:53,516 --> 00:35:56,556
Speaker 1: local bands, and they're supportive. You know. When I talk

790
00:35:56,676 --> 00:36:00,636
Speaker 1: to Seater Kenny about, you know, being in Portland, it's

791
00:36:00,676 --> 00:36:04,476
Speaker 1: like it's like everybody's lifting you up. New York's competitive, yeah,

792
00:36:04,676 --> 00:36:07,676
Speaker 1: and the and the even the critics are competitive, and

793
00:36:07,716 --> 00:36:11,956
Speaker 1: they're part of their competition is who can say the

794
00:36:11,996 --> 00:36:14,356
Speaker 1: pissiest thing about something?

795
00:36:15,076 --> 00:36:15,796
Speaker 3: Yeah, New York.

796
00:36:15,956 --> 00:36:19,356
Speaker 4: I mean, if you think about it, the bands there

797
00:36:19,356 --> 00:36:21,436
Speaker 4: hadn't been a big rock band. I mean and even

798
00:36:21,436 --> 00:36:24,196
Speaker 4: out of CBGB's Blondie I guess they broke, but there

799
00:36:24,196 --> 00:36:27,996
Speaker 4: hadn't been until I guess. Then came the Beastie Boys.

800
00:36:28,036 --> 00:36:28,676
Speaker 4: There were most there.

801
00:36:28,756 --> 00:36:29,596
Speaker 3: It was like a curse.

802
00:36:29,716 --> 00:36:32,756
Speaker 4: You know, Sonic Youth it's a rock band, a little different.

803
00:36:33,036 --> 00:36:34,916
Speaker 4: Beastie Boys are not really a rock band. But those

804
00:36:35,116 --> 00:36:38,476
Speaker 4: acts got big, but nothing it was always they wanted

805
00:36:38,516 --> 00:36:41,436
Speaker 4: to sign. The record companies wanted to sign something from Athens, Georgia.

806
00:36:41,476 --> 00:36:44,636
Speaker 4: At one point, they want to sign from Seattle or anywhere,

807
00:36:44,796 --> 00:36:46,116
Speaker 4: and the labels are here.

808
00:36:45,956 --> 00:36:47,356
Speaker 3: In New York, so that they really don't want to

809
00:36:47,356 --> 00:36:48,916
Speaker 3: see you. They see you out and about.

810
00:36:49,476 --> 00:36:52,716
Speaker 4: But I guess in the early two thousands, which was

811
00:36:52,756 --> 00:36:55,156
Speaker 4: when I was doing my solo stuff, that rock and

812
00:36:55,236 --> 00:36:59,396
Speaker 4: roll in New York got to really happen, and with Strokes, Yaas,

813
00:36:59,636 --> 00:37:02,916
Speaker 4: Enterpol all that, and even though maybe I wasn't, you know,

814
00:37:02,956 --> 00:37:05,836
Speaker 4: in those bands, it was nice to see that really

815
00:37:05,876 --> 00:37:07,756
Speaker 4: happened in a great way. And I remember friends of

816
00:37:07,756 --> 00:37:10,036
Speaker 4: mine being really jealous of the Stroke and talking crap,

817
00:37:10,076 --> 00:37:11,916
Speaker 4: and I was like, I know what that's like, because

818
00:37:11,916 --> 00:37:13,476
Speaker 4: I was like a band that people talk to you

819
00:37:13,516 --> 00:37:17,116
Speaker 4: because they're other musicians are you know, competitive, jealous, And

820
00:37:17,196 --> 00:37:19,156
Speaker 4: I was like so happy, And yeah, maybe they grew

821
00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:21,436
Speaker 4: up with similar records that I did the Strokes, you know,

822
00:37:21,716 --> 00:37:23,756
Speaker 4: but they had their own take on it. They spit

823
00:37:23,796 --> 00:37:25,636
Speaker 4: it out in their own way, and.

824
00:37:25,236 --> 00:37:26,036
Speaker 3: It's nice to see.

825
00:37:26,036 --> 00:37:28,916
Speaker 4: But yeah, it was definitely in our time, not a

826
00:37:28,956 --> 00:37:31,756
Speaker 4: place where the journalists wanted to write about what was

827
00:37:31,796 --> 00:37:33,836
Speaker 4: going on here and you know they're looking somewhere else,

828
00:37:33,916 --> 00:37:37,476
Speaker 4: and it's a competitive place and a place that'll break

829
00:37:37,476 --> 00:37:40,436
Speaker 4: your heart, Like like Hollywood. People go there to be famous,

830
00:37:40,476 --> 00:37:43,276
Speaker 4: and you know there's a big competition. There's a bit

831
00:37:43,356 --> 00:37:45,996
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's not what you think it's going

832
00:37:46,076 --> 00:37:46,276
Speaker 4: to be.

833
00:37:47,236 --> 00:37:49,876
Speaker 1: I want to talk a lot about your Solar solo career,

834
00:37:50,276 --> 00:37:51,636
Speaker 1: but I kind of I want to do it through

835
00:37:51,676 --> 00:37:54,116
Speaker 1: this new album because I want to talk about the

836
00:37:54,156 --> 00:37:57,476
Speaker 1: people and the songs. But we probably should because we

837
00:37:57,516 --> 00:38:03,756
Speaker 1: haven't explained. Tell me about May fourth, twenty twenty three. Wow,

838
00:38:03,796 --> 00:38:04,556
Speaker 1: what was going on?

839
00:38:05,116 --> 00:38:07,876
Speaker 4: Well, that had been a year that my bass player

840
00:38:07,876 --> 00:38:10,676
Speaker 4: and best friend, Howie pyr died, who was in degeneration,

841
00:38:10,996 --> 00:38:13,476
Speaker 4: and I had done a lot of fundraising to you know,

842
00:38:13,676 --> 00:38:16,636
Speaker 4: concerts and memorials even after he passed, but benefits in

843
00:38:16,676 --> 00:38:19,916
Speaker 4: the beginning. He had a liver transplant and he had

844
00:38:19,956 --> 00:38:23,156
Speaker 4: passed on that day. I was on tour in Germany

845
00:38:23,196 --> 00:38:25,476
Speaker 4: and Berlin. I say goodbye to him through the phone

846
00:38:25,556 --> 00:38:28,196
Speaker 4: or whatever. But it was a year later and we

847
00:38:28,236 --> 00:38:30,836
Speaker 4: wanted to celebrate him. Some of his friends, his family,

848
00:38:31,036 --> 00:38:33,676
Speaker 4: sister flew in and so I created a dinner at

849
00:38:33,716 --> 00:38:37,116
Speaker 4: six o'clock near my house, this Italian spot with some

850
00:38:37,156 --> 00:38:40,076
Speaker 4: of those friends and family, and we were gonna go

851
00:38:40,156 --> 00:38:43,236
Speaker 4: DJ and celebrate him. It sounds weird to celebrate someone's death,

852
00:38:43,276 --> 00:38:45,596
Speaker 4: but he was morbid and he would have liked any celebrations.

853
00:38:45,596 --> 00:38:48,636
Speaker 4: So I'm walking over that. I had rehearsed that day,

854
00:38:49,036 --> 00:38:51,356
Speaker 4: I had had a couple of meetings. I took a

855
00:38:51,356 --> 00:38:53,996
Speaker 4: little disco nap. I was ready and I just was

856
00:38:54,036 --> 00:38:56,156
Speaker 4: going out. I was gonna eat, and I brought some

857
00:38:56,236 --> 00:38:59,116
Speaker 4: cash with me because it's Italian restaurant. It's only cash,

858
00:38:59,596 --> 00:39:02,236
Speaker 4: no credit card. And it was twelve people, and I

859
00:39:02,276 --> 00:39:04,556
Speaker 4: threw the party, so I was gonna pay for the bill.

860
00:39:04,756 --> 00:39:06,996
Speaker 4: And I'm starting to walk there and I run into

861
00:39:07,036 --> 00:39:10,316
Speaker 4: Jonathan Tobin. He's a DJ, it's been around the world,

862
00:39:10,356 --> 00:39:13,276
Speaker 4: plays old great records, and he's a friend of Howie's.

863
00:39:13,276 --> 00:39:15,756
Speaker 4: And so I started to feel my hips and feel

864
00:39:15,756 --> 00:39:17,516
Speaker 4: weird walking the street. And I thought it was the

865
00:39:17,516 --> 00:39:19,716
Speaker 4: boots I was wearing, or I thought it was my back.

866
00:39:19,796 --> 00:39:22,476
Speaker 4: And as I ate the dinner, I tried to pretend

867
00:39:22,476 --> 00:39:24,996
Speaker 4: that this wasn't happening with these twelve people, and suddenly

868
00:39:25,076 --> 00:39:26,916
Speaker 4: I ended up in so much pain. But I kept

869
00:39:26,916 --> 00:39:29,516
Speaker 4: trying to fake it ended up on the floor. My

870
00:39:29,636 --> 00:39:33,076
Speaker 4: best friend Jimmy g from Murphy's Law, the singer hardcore singer,

871
00:39:33,116 --> 00:39:34,556
Speaker 4: was there and he said, come on, I'm gonna call

872
00:39:34,596 --> 00:39:35,116
Speaker 4: an ambulance.

873
00:39:35,116 --> 00:39:36,916
Speaker 3: And I said, I'm gonna shake it off.

874
00:39:36,916 --> 00:39:39,836
Speaker 4: I'm gonna shake it off, and I realized I couldn't.

875
00:39:40,556 --> 00:39:42,476
Speaker 4: And then I realized it was time to pay the bill,

876
00:39:42,476 --> 00:39:44,556
Speaker 4: and everybody's coming around me, like go over there. It

877
00:39:44,596 --> 00:39:47,036
Speaker 4: was like Rosemary's Baby. Everybody had a different phone out

878
00:39:47,196 --> 00:39:49,676
Speaker 4: like do this, try this. They're all over me, standing

879
00:39:49,676 --> 00:39:52,876
Speaker 4: over me, all these interesting looking people. But I paid

880
00:39:52,876 --> 00:39:54,716
Speaker 4: the bill with the cash to the waiter. I was like,

881
00:39:54,756 --> 00:39:57,396
Speaker 4: take take eightie all. And I was laying there and

882
00:39:57,436 --> 00:39:59,916
Speaker 4: then I tried to get up, and then I realized

883
00:39:59,956 --> 00:40:03,556
Speaker 4: that my legs were just ice and numb, and so

884
00:40:03,636 --> 00:40:06,916
Speaker 4: I said, call the ambulance and took me to one

885
00:40:06,996 --> 00:40:10,396
Speaker 4: hospital and next and took the the next day until

886
00:40:10,436 --> 00:40:12,596
Speaker 4: I got a room. And that's how it is with that.

887
00:40:12,636 --> 00:40:14,476
Speaker 4: And it took a while and then to figure out

888
00:40:14,476 --> 00:40:17,716
Speaker 4: what had happened. And it's a very rare thing. It's

889
00:40:17,756 --> 00:40:20,196
Speaker 4: a spinal stroke, and even an NYU here in New

890
00:40:20,276 --> 00:40:23,036
Speaker 4: York and Mount Sinai. They don't see that many of them,

891
00:40:24,276 --> 00:40:28,316
Speaker 4: and it left me pretty much paralyzed, you know, you

892
00:40:28,356 --> 00:40:31,596
Speaker 4: know from the spinal cord, the legs couldn't walk everything

893
00:40:31,676 --> 00:40:32,916
Speaker 4: below the waist and.

894
00:40:33,796 --> 00:40:36,596
Speaker 1: So it's a stroke in your brain. It's like a

895
00:40:36,636 --> 00:40:37,396
Speaker 1: blood cloth.

896
00:40:37,276 --> 00:40:40,436
Speaker 4: It's something, yeah, something a inforcation in the in the

897
00:40:40,436 --> 00:40:43,356
Speaker 4: spine where blood isn't getting to the area and it's

898
00:40:43,516 --> 00:40:47,716
Speaker 4: just the nerves disconnected. And so three months in the

899
00:40:47,756 --> 00:40:50,636
Speaker 4: hospital because they're figuring things out, and there's almost half

900
00:40:50,676 --> 00:40:53,876
Speaker 4: it was a rehab hospital still NYU, and they said,

901
00:40:53,916 --> 00:40:55,956
Speaker 4: you know, you'll never walk again, and you know never,

902
00:40:56,076 --> 00:40:59,556
Speaker 4: you know, doctors weren't very optimistic. So a lot of

903
00:40:59,756 --> 00:41:02,276
Speaker 4: friends of mine, a couple that have dealt with themselves

904
00:41:02,316 --> 00:41:05,676
Speaker 4: in alternative medicine. They've had cancer and they've tried other

905
00:41:05,796 --> 00:41:10,076
Speaker 4: ways to not just go with the mainstream medicine. And

906
00:41:10,436 --> 00:41:13,676
Speaker 4: one of them called like forty places about stem cells

907
00:41:13,676 --> 00:41:17,116
Speaker 4: and found a place that specialized in spinal cord injuries

908
00:41:17,716 --> 00:41:20,356
Speaker 4: and they were in Argentina and they gave stem cells

909
00:41:20,396 --> 00:41:22,676
Speaker 4: and they don't do it here at the FDA hadn't

910
00:41:22,716 --> 00:41:26,436
Speaker 4: approved this and it wasn't expensive, but it was going

911
00:41:26,516 --> 00:41:28,796
Speaker 4: to be six months in this other country, and I'm

912
00:41:28,836 --> 00:41:31,356
Speaker 4: already so shaken up now. I lived in a walk

913
00:41:31,436 --> 00:41:33,636
Speaker 4: up so I couldn't go back that day I left.

914
00:41:33,676 --> 00:41:36,076
Speaker 4: I never packed and I never moved out, but I

915
00:41:36,076 --> 00:41:38,676
Speaker 4: could never go back. So before I went to Argentina,

916
00:41:38,716 --> 00:41:41,796
Speaker 4: which I would say yes to, I'm in hospitals.

917
00:41:41,876 --> 00:41:42,436
Speaker 3: Then I'm in.

918
00:41:42,396 --> 00:41:46,036
Speaker 4: Hotels, you know. And luckily people raised some funds for

919
00:41:46,116 --> 00:41:48,956
Speaker 4: me through sweet relief in the music community. I was

920
00:41:48,996 --> 00:41:50,956
Speaker 4: able to stay in hotels because I had to cancel

921
00:41:51,036 --> 00:41:55,116
Speaker 4: six months of touring and all my stuff got put

922
00:41:55,156 --> 00:41:57,756
Speaker 4: in storage. People moved me out of that was a rental,

923
00:41:58,116 --> 00:42:00,916
Speaker 4: but I'd been there ten years and it was really haunting.

924
00:42:00,916 --> 00:42:02,996
Speaker 4: They never go back, and you know, so I didn't

925
00:42:02,996 --> 00:42:06,196
Speaker 4: have anywhere to live. So I said yes to Argentina

926
00:42:06,236 --> 00:42:09,476
Speaker 4: for six months and it wasn't a money and they

927
00:42:09,516 --> 00:42:13,796
Speaker 4: were really compassionate, intelligent, hard working people at this clinic,

928
00:42:14,556 --> 00:42:18,596
Speaker 4: and not everybody spoke English and that made it challenging.

929
00:42:20,356 --> 00:42:22,076
Speaker 4: But I got a lot out of it, and I

930
00:42:22,116 --> 00:42:24,556
Speaker 4: got stem cell treatments along with five days a week

931
00:42:24,676 --> 00:42:28,556
Speaker 4: of five hours a day of really intense, pt scary

932
00:42:28,596 --> 00:42:30,836
Speaker 4: stuff putting blindfolds onto you and get you up and

933
00:42:30,996 --> 00:42:33,716
Speaker 4: they want to get you up, and it did a lot.

934
00:42:33,716 --> 00:42:36,276
Speaker 1: It was part of it keeping your legs moving so

935
00:42:36,356 --> 00:42:38,756
Speaker 1: the muscle doesn't atrophy.

936
00:42:38,516 --> 00:42:40,716
Speaker 4: Yeah in some way, and learning how to use other

937
00:42:40,836 --> 00:42:43,116
Speaker 4: parts like the quads and the hips and you know,

938
00:42:43,196 --> 00:42:44,796
Speaker 4: so if somebody sees me now and I can get

939
00:42:44,876 --> 00:42:47,476
Speaker 4: up with a walker, I might have braces on below

940
00:42:47,476 --> 00:42:50,996
Speaker 4: my knees, but I'm using other muscles and I'm using

941
00:42:51,036 --> 00:42:54,396
Speaker 4: other things from doing it every day. And I was

942
00:42:54,436 --> 00:42:56,836
Speaker 4: just convinced that, you know, I want to beat this

943
00:42:56,916 --> 00:42:59,316
Speaker 4: somehow beat the odds. And you know when you see

944
00:42:59,316 --> 00:43:01,756
Speaker 4: an MRI and you see there's a disconnection in there.

945
00:43:02,716 --> 00:43:04,596
Speaker 4: And then there's other things that go with just not walking.

946
00:43:04,636 --> 00:43:06,596
Speaker 4: They go with your body that make it really hard

947
00:43:06,676 --> 00:43:09,996
Speaker 4: and not being able to tour, not being able to,

948
00:43:10,156 --> 00:43:12,196
Speaker 4: you know, really do other things like I would DJ

949
00:43:12,396 --> 00:43:15,036
Speaker 4: or was involved in some clubs. I had Downtown everything

950
00:43:15,236 --> 00:43:18,396
Speaker 4: even after COVID was tough enough and we're just rebuilding.

951
00:43:18,396 --> 00:43:20,676
Speaker 4: I thought that was the low. I know, I was like, man,

952
00:43:20,756 --> 00:43:23,636
Speaker 4: my friend died COVID, but you know, the love and

953
00:43:23,676 --> 00:43:27,636
Speaker 4: the support of the music community and my fans and

954
00:43:27,756 --> 00:43:31,076
Speaker 4: friends and family, it was it blew my mind and

955
00:43:31,116 --> 00:43:32,916
Speaker 4: I didn't want to. It was embarrassed I was. I

956
00:43:32,916 --> 00:43:35,396
Speaker 4: didn't want to ask. I never wanted to need and

957
00:43:35,436 --> 00:43:37,356
Speaker 4: be that person. I like to be the guy paying

958
00:43:37,396 --> 00:43:39,196
Speaker 4: the bill or the guy that puts on the benefit.

959
00:43:39,276 --> 00:43:42,716
Speaker 4: But it's a lesson to learn, you know how to receive.

960
00:43:42,836 --> 00:43:45,516
Speaker 4: So now we'll be two years in May, and you know,

961
00:43:45,516 --> 00:43:47,236
Speaker 4: when I got back, I could at least play the

962
00:43:47,276 --> 00:43:50,116
Speaker 4: guitar and sing. And some of that the pain and

963
00:43:50,156 --> 00:43:52,076
Speaker 4: the energy I had made it hard to I couldn't

964
00:43:52,076 --> 00:43:52,836
Speaker 4: write for a while.

965
00:43:52,876 --> 00:43:53,236
Speaker 3: I didn't.

966
00:43:53,676 --> 00:43:55,796
Speaker 4: You know, people say, just write songs, lay in bed,

967
00:43:55,836 --> 00:43:58,276
Speaker 4: but there's a lot more to it than Everything takes

968
00:43:58,276 --> 00:43:58,836
Speaker 4: a long time.

969
00:43:58,956 --> 00:44:02,476
Speaker 1: Man, did you lose because with some strokes people lose mobility,

970
00:44:02,476 --> 00:44:05,276
Speaker 1: but not feeling necessarily. Did you lose both?

971
00:44:05,756 --> 00:44:08,916
Speaker 4: I had no feeling earlier below my waist. Now I

972
00:44:08,916 --> 00:44:13,556
Speaker 4: have it my upper thighs. There's some feeling, and but

973
00:44:13,716 --> 00:44:17,396
Speaker 4: down below I don't like, you know, sound gross. I

974
00:44:17,396 --> 00:44:20,276
Speaker 4: could step on attack. I wouldn't know, or I could. Yeah,

975
00:44:20,316 --> 00:44:22,996
Speaker 4: I've I've burned my legs and stuff shaving under the sink,

976
00:44:23,076 --> 00:44:24,836
Speaker 4: you know, like in weird times, other things have happened.

977
00:44:24,916 --> 00:44:26,716
Speaker 4: I didn't even know, you know, so you got to

978
00:44:26,756 --> 00:44:30,036
Speaker 4: really watch your skin and yeah, all this fun rock

979
00:44:30,036 --> 00:44:32,396
Speaker 4: and roll stuff does.

980
00:44:32,316 --> 00:44:35,036
Speaker 1: This do they think with stem cells, this will it'll

981
00:44:35,036 --> 00:44:36,916
Speaker 1: slowly come back or they.

982
00:44:36,796 --> 00:44:39,876
Speaker 4: Believe that a lot in the folks in Argentina, and

983
00:44:40,036 --> 00:44:42,196
Speaker 4: you know, it's all new. Some people say, oh, it's

984
00:44:42,196 --> 00:44:44,796
Speaker 4: like the wild West or whatever, but it's it's it's

985
00:44:44,796 --> 00:44:47,316
Speaker 4: not harmful. It's my own stem cells. I had to

986
00:44:47,356 --> 00:44:49,916
Speaker 4: get my some cells removed from like a you know,

987
00:44:50,036 --> 00:44:52,876
Speaker 4: kind of like a love handle area and then put

988
00:44:52,956 --> 00:44:55,636
Speaker 4: back in. And the thing that appealed to me was

989
00:44:55,676 --> 00:45:00,036
Speaker 4: the combination with the physical therapy and stem cells that

990
00:45:00,156 --> 00:45:02,676
Speaker 4: really made me think that this is a good thing.

991
00:45:02,716 --> 00:45:05,596
Speaker 4: Because and so when I was getting some progress and

992
00:45:05,636 --> 00:45:08,156
Speaker 4: I was leaving there, I said to the main doctor,

993
00:45:09,356 --> 00:45:12,236
Speaker 4: is this this stuff that's happening. Is this because of

994
00:45:12,276 --> 00:45:15,756
Speaker 4: the therapy we did or the cells? And she said,

995
00:45:15,796 --> 00:45:17,636
Speaker 4: we don't know. That's why we do both. And I

996
00:45:17,636 --> 00:45:19,116
Speaker 4: thought it was you know, and they're not trying to

997
00:45:19,116 --> 00:45:21,076
Speaker 4: push this and sell you more stem cells and come

998
00:45:21,116 --> 00:45:23,796
Speaker 4: down here like they're trying, and they're figuring out. The

999
00:45:23,836 --> 00:45:27,956
Speaker 4: main doctor her father had studied this for thirty years plus,

1000
00:45:27,996 --> 00:45:31,596
Speaker 4: and so I just went with it. Another option was

1001
00:45:31,636 --> 00:45:33,356
Speaker 4: to stay in New York. I didn't have anywhere to

1002
00:45:33,396 --> 00:45:37,596
Speaker 4: live at the time. My insurance wasn't covering physical therapy.

1003
00:45:37,716 --> 00:45:40,276
Speaker 4: They weren't covering a new wheelchair. You know, a bunch

1004
00:45:40,316 --> 00:45:43,916
Speaker 4: of things. Healthcare in America is tough. But I gotta

1005
00:45:43,956 --> 00:45:47,796
Speaker 4: say Sweet Relief really got together with my manager and

1006
00:45:47,836 --> 00:45:52,076
Speaker 4: my friends that all came through to put together where

1007
00:45:52,076 --> 00:45:57,196
Speaker 4: people could donate and then eventually benefit concerts. And this album.

1008
00:45:57,276 --> 00:46:00,276
Speaker 4: That was another thing. I mean, it was pretty great

1009
00:46:00,396 --> 00:46:02,836
Speaker 4: just even like emotionally to hear these songs too, like

1010
00:46:02,876 --> 00:46:05,156
Speaker 4: it was a boost of like wow, Okay, you know,

1011
00:46:05,556 --> 00:46:08,516
Speaker 4: in the lowest points, I'd be really low in Argentina

1012
00:46:08,556 --> 00:46:09,476
Speaker 4: and I.

1013
00:46:09,396 --> 00:46:11,636
Speaker 3: Didn't like the food and it's a very meat place.

1014
00:46:11,676 --> 00:46:12,676
Speaker 3: I'm vegetarians.

1015
00:46:12,836 --> 00:46:15,996
Speaker 4: I just felt I can't walk, I'm away from my friends,

1016
00:46:16,036 --> 00:46:20,556
Speaker 4: and so it's been a ride. But I've always preached

1017
00:46:20,596 --> 00:46:23,676
Speaker 4: since the hardcore days PMA, you know, positive mental latitude,

1018
00:46:23,756 --> 00:46:26,516
Speaker 4: and it was a real all right, you talk about BMA.

1019
00:46:26,596 --> 00:46:28,716
Speaker 4: Now deal with this, see if you can. You know,

1020
00:46:28,796 --> 00:46:31,996
Speaker 4: all right, you're so positive, okay, positive you are now.

1021
00:46:33,796 --> 00:46:33,956
Speaker 3: Well.

1022
00:46:34,076 --> 00:46:36,036
Speaker 2: Last break and we back with Jesse Mallen.

1023
00:46:40,596 --> 00:46:44,316
Speaker 1: The last few months have been sort of this incredible

1024
00:46:44,356 --> 00:46:48,796
Speaker 1: outpouring of your music. You had the tribute album Silver

1025
00:46:49,036 --> 00:46:51,676
Speaker 1: Patron Saints with a lot of friends, a lot of

1026
00:46:51,876 --> 00:46:55,436
Speaker 1: admirers Springsteen and a lot of other people you played with.

1027
00:46:55,836 --> 00:46:58,356
Speaker 1: You've got a new single out, and you had a

1028
00:46:58,356 --> 00:47:00,116
Speaker 1: live album out last year too, Is that right?

1029
00:47:00,636 --> 00:47:03,596
Speaker 4: Yeah, right before this happened, I had a record Chasing

1030
00:47:03,596 --> 00:47:06,276
Speaker 4: a Light, a live record in like a DVD film thing.

1031
00:47:06,676 --> 00:47:07,996
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of something.

1032
00:47:07,996 --> 00:47:11,116
Speaker 4: We filmed a lot of it through in Lockdown, Pandemic

1033
00:47:11,196 --> 00:47:13,796
Speaker 4: and stuff, and it went with the record that we

1034
00:47:13,876 --> 00:47:14,756
Speaker 4: made at that time.

1035
00:47:15,396 --> 00:47:17,756
Speaker 1: So what's this been like? To see this kind of

1036
00:47:18,716 --> 00:47:22,796
Speaker 1: outpouring of people and your music everywhere and great reviews

1037
00:47:22,836 --> 00:47:23,956
Speaker 1: for this record.

1038
00:47:24,196 --> 00:47:28,476
Speaker 4: It's been really touching, really humbling. I always believed in

1039
00:47:28,636 --> 00:47:32,236
Speaker 4: people and the power of people's energies and generosity. You know,

1040
00:47:32,236 --> 00:47:35,196
Speaker 4: I'm an optimistic person in that way, but I know

1041
00:47:35,236 --> 00:47:36,676
Speaker 4: there's a lot of bad stuff in this world, a

1042
00:47:36,716 --> 00:47:38,756
Speaker 4: lot of bad people, but I've never seen it on

1043
00:47:38,796 --> 00:47:41,676
Speaker 4: this level. And I'd never like to receive. I always

1044
00:47:41,676 --> 00:47:44,316
Speaker 4: like to be the person since I'm like fifteen, putting

1045
00:47:44,356 --> 00:47:48,716
Speaker 4: on benefits, and you know, the music community, it's not

1046
00:47:48,756 --> 00:47:51,556
Speaker 4: just the artist. It's everybody involved, the fans, the people.

1047
00:47:51,956 --> 00:47:54,636
Speaker 4: I think they're the most giving, caring people of any

1048
00:47:55,116 --> 00:47:59,036
Speaker 4: kind of community. And it's been overwhelming but inspiring and

1049
00:47:59,636 --> 00:48:02,516
Speaker 4: just a lot to take in, a lot to you know,

1050
00:48:02,556 --> 00:48:04,796
Speaker 4: with what happened to me. Has been so hard and

1051
00:48:04,836 --> 00:48:08,156
Speaker 4: each day is tough, but that had made it so

1052
00:48:08,316 --> 00:48:11,796
Speaker 4: much bright And yeah, I guess there was funds that

1053
00:48:11,796 --> 00:48:15,996
Speaker 4: were needed. And that's a real thing to hear these songs,

1054
00:48:16,436 --> 00:48:18,556
Speaker 4: to hear the music and hear that, or just to

1055
00:48:18,596 --> 00:48:21,396
Speaker 4: see the messages from people that they gave a lot

1056
00:48:21,436 --> 00:48:23,516
Speaker 4: too as much, if not more.

1057
00:48:23,756 --> 00:48:28,796
Speaker 1: It's also one of those tribute albums that they're faithful

1058
00:48:28,796 --> 00:48:31,516
Speaker 1: to the songs, all these versions, but they kind of

1059
00:48:31,596 --> 00:48:33,796
Speaker 1: reintroduced the songs in a nice way.

1060
00:48:34,276 --> 00:48:36,356
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, sometimes I'd listen to it. I mean

1061
00:48:36,476 --> 00:48:38,956
Speaker 4: they came in slowly. I had nothing to do with it.

1062
00:48:39,316 --> 00:48:42,276
Speaker 4: The record was put together, you know, these two folks

1063
00:48:42,316 --> 00:48:45,156
Speaker 4: that one managed me, Diane Genteel years ago and my

1064
00:48:45,196 --> 00:48:47,396
Speaker 4: new manager, Dave Basin, And I was just in my

1065
00:48:47,476 --> 00:48:50,076
Speaker 4: recovery and I left the country to go to South America,

1066
00:48:50,116 --> 00:48:54,396
Speaker 4: to Argentina, and I couldn't speak the language and speak Spanish.

1067
00:48:54,516 --> 00:48:56,956
Speaker 4: I couldn't walk, and it was tricky to nurses. I'll

1068
00:48:56,996 --> 00:49:00,436
Speaker 4: speaking Spanish. And then little by little these songs would

1069
00:49:00,436 --> 00:49:02,316
Speaker 4: trickle in and they'd send me a song, you know,

1070
00:49:02,356 --> 00:49:04,556
Speaker 4: on the have it on my iPhone and didn't have

1071
00:49:04,596 --> 00:49:08,116
Speaker 4: a sound system, and I'd be in my room or whatever,

1072
00:49:08,156 --> 00:49:10,356
Speaker 4: and I'd listen to it. It would just make such

1073
00:49:10,396 --> 00:49:12,516
Speaker 4: a difference each time they came in, just to hear

1074
00:49:12,956 --> 00:49:15,516
Speaker 4: how these artists that they took the time went in

1075
00:49:15,516 --> 00:49:19,036
Speaker 4: the studio, gave so much of themselves, and then to

1076
00:49:19,076 --> 00:49:21,716
Speaker 4: hear the songs, some of them were so much better

1077
00:49:21,756 --> 00:49:23,836
Speaker 4: in my eyes than the original or I was like, wow,

1078
00:49:23,876 --> 00:49:25,956
Speaker 4: I thought I was just fooling people with a crooked

1079
00:49:25,956 --> 00:49:26,876
Speaker 4: hat and a leather jacket.

1080
00:49:26,916 --> 00:49:29,636
Speaker 3: There's a song in there, you know, like hey, youre wow.

1081
00:49:29,676 --> 00:49:31,876
Speaker 4: It actually is something you could sing back and hearing

1082
00:49:31,916 --> 00:49:36,156
Speaker 4: someone else do it, and it was just wonderful to

1083
00:49:36,236 --> 00:49:38,876
Speaker 4: hear all those different versions. And I felt like, to

1084
00:49:38,996 --> 00:49:42,316
Speaker 4: me from someone that's been on compilations and tribute records,

1085
00:49:42,756 --> 00:49:45,676
Speaker 4: I felt that the people, the artists went deep. They

1086
00:49:45,716 --> 00:49:47,796
Speaker 4: weren't phoning it in like I could feel that they

1087
00:49:48,036 --> 00:49:50,476
Speaker 4: thought about it. That's how it came across to me.

1088
00:49:51,196 --> 00:49:54,036
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the songs and the people

1089
00:49:54,276 --> 00:49:56,796
Speaker 1: as a way of talking about the songs. Let's start

1090
00:49:56,836 --> 00:50:01,476
Speaker 1: with the Springsteen, who you've played with before, who sang

1091
00:50:01,516 --> 00:50:04,396
Speaker 1: on one or two of your albums. And then he

1092
00:50:04,436 --> 00:50:08,996
Speaker 1: does a just great version of she Don't Love You

1093
00:50:09,196 --> 00:50:11,676
Speaker 1: to Love Me Now. Yeah, it's just a it's got

1094
00:50:11,676 --> 00:50:15,156
Speaker 1: a great, great sax solo. Tell me first about the

1095
00:50:15,196 --> 00:50:18,076
Speaker 1: song and then his take on the song.

1096
00:50:18,756 --> 00:50:20,716
Speaker 4: We were going for it on my record New York

1097
00:50:20,756 --> 00:50:22,956
Speaker 4: before the War, to have a song kind of like

1098
00:50:23,516 --> 00:50:27,436
Speaker 4: Lee Dorsey, kind of New Orleans soul, Sam Cook kind

1099
00:50:27,436 --> 00:50:31,156
Speaker 4: of song with stabs and uh, and we were approaching

1100
00:50:31,196 --> 00:50:34,076
Speaker 4: that and and uh record the song and I don't

1101
00:50:34,076 --> 00:50:36,476
Speaker 4: think on that album I captured maybe the right tempo

1102
00:50:36,596 --> 00:50:38,716
Speaker 4: or it wasn't ready yet. Sometimes songs need a little

1103
00:50:38,716 --> 00:50:41,636
Speaker 4: more time. But as we played it live, it kind

1104
00:50:41,636 --> 00:50:43,316
Speaker 4: of grew into one of the songs in my set

1105
00:50:43,356 --> 00:50:45,116
Speaker 4: that the crowds seem to connect with.

1106
00:50:45,876 --> 00:50:48,476
Speaker 1: The guitar sound on that on your version of it,

1107
00:50:48,596 --> 00:50:49,076
Speaker 1: I mean, I.

1108
00:50:49,036 --> 00:50:51,636
Speaker 4: Like his, but it's it's got a great Oh cool. Well,

1109
00:50:51,676 --> 00:50:54,196
Speaker 4: that's Derek Cruz, who plays guitar with me, who I

1110
00:50:54,236 --> 00:50:56,916
Speaker 4: co wrote the song with. We were just jamming at

1111
00:50:56,916 --> 00:50:59,956
Speaker 4: a studio called Tucasa down on Avenue B and you know,

1112
00:50:59,996 --> 00:51:02,876
Speaker 4: he's just had this thing and in my mind and

1113
00:51:03,036 --> 00:51:05,276
Speaker 4: and you know, someti as I free form and if

1114
00:51:05,276 --> 00:51:08,036
Speaker 4: somebody's just hitting some chords, sometimes the whole thing will

1115
00:51:08,036 --> 00:51:09,756
Speaker 4: come out. And that was one of the ones where

1116
00:51:09,796 --> 00:51:12,636
Speaker 4: he's just banging these things and hitting those stabs, and

1117
00:51:12,676 --> 00:51:15,676
Speaker 4: then the lyrics fell out and the no melody fell out.

1118
00:51:16,276 --> 00:51:18,476
Speaker 4: But I felt like, you know, I wish that we

1119
00:51:18,476 --> 00:51:21,356
Speaker 4: always could have re recorded it a little quicker, but

1120
00:51:21,676 --> 00:51:23,716
Speaker 4: there it was, and live it became a song, and

1121
00:51:24,116 --> 00:51:26,396
Speaker 4: I guess that was the one that everybody thought when

1122
00:51:26,396 --> 00:51:27,876
Speaker 4: they're putting the record together.

1123
00:51:27,996 --> 00:51:30,076
Speaker 3: To get to Bruce and.

1124
00:51:31,396 --> 00:51:35,756
Speaker 4: Danny Clinch was really helpful, reaching out the photographer who

1125
00:51:35,836 --> 00:51:37,556
Speaker 4: was a friend and a fan and just.

1126
00:51:37,756 --> 00:51:38,796
Speaker 3: The guy we've worked with.

1127
00:51:39,516 --> 00:51:41,756
Speaker 4: And you know, Bruce's always been supportive. I mean, he

1128
00:51:42,396 --> 00:51:44,516
Speaker 4: was in touch with me a lot through this and

1129
00:51:45,516 --> 00:51:47,756
Speaker 4: checked in a lot from the road and Europe and stuff.

1130
00:51:47,956 --> 00:51:52,156
Speaker 4: So they they tracked it, actually I believe it was

1131
00:51:52,276 --> 00:51:56,396
Speaker 4: my band tracked it while I was away, and then

1132
00:51:56,436 --> 00:52:00,156
Speaker 4: they sent it to Jay Clemens, the sax player, and

1133
00:52:00,196 --> 00:52:02,356
Speaker 4: he played on it, and then it got to Bruce's

1134
00:52:02,356 --> 00:52:03,476
Speaker 4: studio and that he sang on it.

1135
00:52:03,516 --> 00:52:04,916
Speaker 3: You wouldn't know when you hear it.

1136
00:52:05,156 --> 00:52:08,236
Speaker 4: I think I felt like he really took the time

1137
00:52:08,276 --> 00:52:10,836
Speaker 4: to get inside the song. But I never talked to

1138
00:52:10,956 --> 00:52:12,796
Speaker 4: him about it or you know, was that right?

1139
00:52:12,836 --> 00:52:15,116
Speaker 3: It just all happened. They send me to song and there.

1140
00:52:14,916 --> 00:52:16,796
Speaker 4: It was, so I was like, wow, this is this

1141
00:52:16,876 --> 00:52:20,356
Speaker 4: is cool, this is And I think he kind of

1142
00:52:20,356 --> 00:52:22,476
Speaker 4: got the soul thing more than we did. But he's

1143
00:52:22,516 --> 00:52:25,156
Speaker 4: the boss, you know, Yeah.

1144
00:52:24,396 --> 00:52:26,956
Speaker 1: He's literally the boss in this case. I think what

1145
00:52:26,996 --> 00:52:29,596
Speaker 1: I like. I like about both versions, but your version.

1146
00:52:30,316 --> 00:52:31,756
Speaker 1: It's one of those songs where you kind of hear

1147
00:52:31,796 --> 00:52:34,756
Speaker 1: the room, if that makes any sense, Like, and you

1148
00:52:34,796 --> 00:52:37,036
Speaker 1: don't hear that so much on records anymore, no matter

1149
00:52:37,036 --> 00:52:38,796
Speaker 1: how much reverb they put on them, you don't. You

1150
00:52:38,796 --> 00:52:40,156
Speaker 1: don't feel like you're hearing the room.

1151
00:52:40,436 --> 00:52:41,836
Speaker 3: Yeah. I like that space.

1152
00:52:41,876 --> 00:52:43,556
Speaker 4: I mean, maybe it was something that harks back to

1153
00:52:43,756 --> 00:52:45,636
Speaker 4: a song I did on my first album, Queen of

1154
00:52:45,636 --> 00:52:48,876
Speaker 4: the Underworld, where there's those stabs and there's like a

1155
00:52:48,956 --> 00:52:52,116
Speaker 4: room and there's not a lot on it. I don't know,

1156
00:52:52,556 --> 00:52:54,836
Speaker 4: it's the sixties kind of approach to I think in

1157
00:52:54,876 --> 00:52:55,476
Speaker 4: some way.

1158
00:52:55,636 --> 00:52:59,356
Speaker 1: Great version about you that Frank Turner does. Yeah, so

1159
00:52:59,396 --> 00:53:00,556
Speaker 1: tell me first about the song.

1160
00:53:01,436 --> 00:53:04,676
Speaker 4: That song is something I wrote when I was in

1161
00:53:04,756 --> 00:53:08,516
Speaker 4: Europe and some different experiences. One verse, I was staying

1162
00:53:08,516 --> 00:53:10,476
Speaker 4: in a hotel where chet Baker fell out the window

1163
00:53:10,556 --> 00:53:12,876
Speaker 4: and he had put me in that room and he

1164
00:53:12,996 --> 00:53:15,756
Speaker 4: died and there's a plaque there and I was dealing

1165
00:53:15,756 --> 00:53:16,076
Speaker 4: with some.

1166
00:53:16,036 --> 00:53:17,316
Speaker 1: And you still opened the windows.

1167
00:53:18,076 --> 00:53:19,876
Speaker 3: It was only a second floor. He must have been

1168
00:53:19,916 --> 00:53:21,156
Speaker 3: having some powerful stuff.

1169
00:53:22,396 --> 00:53:25,436
Speaker 4: But it's a you know, a connection to somebody, and

1170
00:53:25,716 --> 00:53:28,716
Speaker 4: it references a lot of travel. And I guess I

1171
00:53:28,756 --> 00:53:31,516
Speaker 4: didn't want my second album to be about the road

1172
00:53:31,596 --> 00:53:33,316
Speaker 4: and you know, all that stuff, because I was touring

1173
00:53:33,356 --> 00:53:36,156
Speaker 4: a lot, because it's such cliche thing and I tried

1174
00:53:36,156 --> 00:53:38,236
Speaker 4: to avoid that. But it becas a few songs about

1175
00:53:38,276 --> 00:53:41,476
Speaker 4: the road, and that Frank Turner version was the first

1176
00:53:41,476 --> 00:53:43,756
Speaker 4: song that I heard that when they said they're doing

1177
00:53:43,796 --> 00:53:46,156
Speaker 4: this tribute record for me, and this is the thing.

1178
00:53:46,156 --> 00:53:48,156
Speaker 4: That was the first song that came in and I

1179
00:53:48,196 --> 00:53:50,036
Speaker 4: was fighting out of my mind. I was going to

1180
00:53:50,316 --> 00:53:54,316
Speaker 4: this doctor's office to remove fat to use for stem cells,

1181
00:53:54,316 --> 00:53:56,396
Speaker 4: and I was so frail and fragile, and I was

1182
00:53:56,436 --> 00:53:58,236
Speaker 4: in the waiting room and it came in and somebody

1183
00:53:58,436 --> 00:54:00,396
Speaker 4: forwarded to me and I was sitting and I had

1184
00:54:00,436 --> 00:54:02,836
Speaker 4: to go to Chicago, and that was really hard. And

1185
00:54:03,076 --> 00:54:05,876
Speaker 4: I listened to that and I thought Frank did such

1186
00:54:05,916 --> 00:54:08,556
Speaker 4: a great job, Like beautiful, it's one of my favorites,

1187
00:54:08,556 --> 00:54:12,756
Speaker 4: and he just stripped it down and just changed the melody.

1188
00:54:12,836 --> 00:54:14,596
Speaker 3: And I always been a fan of him.

1189
00:54:14,636 --> 00:54:16,556
Speaker 4: If you see him live, he's a great songwriter, but

1190
00:54:16,556 --> 00:54:18,436
Speaker 4: he also he's a great performer.

1191
00:54:19,276 --> 00:54:23,676
Speaker 1: And Shane by Rocky O Reardon.

1192
00:54:23,676 --> 00:54:26,516
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're picking some good ones. Yeah.

1193
00:54:26,796 --> 00:54:30,956
Speaker 4: I'd met Rocky or Corch or cat so many different ways.

1194
00:54:30,956 --> 00:54:34,156
Speaker 4: I pronounced her dable Calder. I met her we were

1195
00:54:34,196 --> 00:54:37,116
Speaker 4: doing some benefit shows for Music and Memory. We do

1196
00:54:37,236 --> 00:54:39,996
Speaker 4: this Clash tribute night that we did in London in

1197
00:54:40,036 --> 00:54:42,356
Speaker 4: New York a few years in a row and the

1198
00:54:42,396 --> 00:54:46,156
Speaker 4: money goes to Stromer Foundation and Music and Memory for Dementia.

1199
00:54:46,796 --> 00:54:50,116
Speaker 4: And she came and sang Lovers Rock from London calling

1200
00:54:50,116 --> 00:54:52,596
Speaker 4: the Clash song and we connected and I would go

1201
00:54:52,596 --> 00:54:55,276
Speaker 4: see her play with other people locally, and she's bass players.

1202
00:54:55,316 --> 00:54:57,236
Speaker 4: I'd seen her play in the pogues at Dance Atteria,

1203
00:54:57,276 --> 00:55:01,076
Speaker 4: but it was so long ago and I was asked

1204
00:55:01,076 --> 00:55:04,916
Speaker 4: to sing at Chee mc gowan's sixtieth birthday and he

1205
00:55:04,996 --> 00:55:06,916
Speaker 4: was in a wheelchair and it was in Dublin, and

1206
00:55:06,996 --> 00:55:10,316
Speaker 4: I went with Clem Burke and Glenn Mattlocke and some

1207
00:55:10,356 --> 00:55:12,916
Speaker 4: folks and I sang some stuff Spider from the Popes.

1208
00:55:12,996 --> 00:55:15,316
Speaker 4: We did some of the early stuff from Shane's first band,

1209
00:55:15,676 --> 00:55:18,956
Speaker 4: and I met him again and courch Rocky was the

1210
00:55:18,996 --> 00:55:21,076
Speaker 4: bass player in the house band, and the house band

1211
00:55:21,116 --> 00:55:24,476
Speaker 4: had Shane sing, had Bono, Johnny Depp, Nick Cave, Bobby

1212
00:55:24,476 --> 00:55:28,636
Speaker 4: Gillespie and Glenn Hazard. You know, it was just crazy,

1213
00:55:29,476 --> 00:55:31,276
Speaker 4: and it was my experience when I wrote the song

1214
00:55:31,316 --> 00:55:33,316
Speaker 4: about being there and feeling like it was my Forrest

1215
00:55:33,356 --> 00:55:35,676
Speaker 4: Gump moment, like I'm on stage with all these people,

1216
00:55:35,716 --> 00:55:38,156
Speaker 4: and it was like I felt like this New Yorker,

1217
00:55:38,556 --> 00:55:40,996
Speaker 4: you know that, why am I here? I mean, I

1218
00:55:41,036 --> 00:55:43,956
Speaker 4: love Shane and the Pogues. I wrote it about that,

1219
00:55:43,996 --> 00:55:45,756
Speaker 4: and she had been there, and then I guess they

1220
00:55:46,116 --> 00:55:48,036
Speaker 4: asked her to sing that song. And when I got

1221
00:55:48,036 --> 00:55:51,156
Speaker 4: that version back, it must have made sense to her.

1222
00:55:51,196 --> 00:55:53,676
Speaker 4: I would assume somewhere of the song because she did it,

1223
00:55:53,716 --> 00:55:57,076
Speaker 4: but I'd love the version. I just love what she did,

1224
00:55:57,116 --> 00:56:00,516
Speaker 4: and with the Irish accent, it just made the song

1225
00:56:01,316 --> 00:56:03,316
Speaker 4: so much more real. I like it better than my

1226
00:56:03,436 --> 00:56:04,076
Speaker 4: version two.

1227
00:56:05,796 --> 00:56:08,476
Speaker 1: Three of those, Three of those, okay, because it's one

1228
00:56:08,516 --> 00:56:11,876
Speaker 1: of your best known songs. Brooklyn, Yeah with Dinosaur Jr.

1229
00:56:12,316 --> 00:56:13,076
Speaker 1: Tell me about that.

1230
00:56:13,436 --> 00:56:15,876
Speaker 4: When I lived in green Point, Brooklyn after my mother died,

1231
00:56:15,876 --> 00:56:17,356
Speaker 4: and I had the van service and I was a

1232
00:56:17,396 --> 00:56:20,156
Speaker 4: moving guy. Me and my friend scrouched a lot of

1233
00:56:20,196 --> 00:56:22,516
Speaker 4: money together to have a first floor of a three

1234
00:56:22,716 --> 00:56:26,676
Speaker 4: level house or whatever, and I guess it would be

1235
00:56:27,156 --> 00:56:29,476
Speaker 4: eighty seven or something like that, and there would be

1236
00:56:29,556 --> 00:56:32,196
Speaker 4: some girl that lived upstairs and she was very nice

1237
00:56:32,196 --> 00:56:34,316
Speaker 4: and knew some people we knew, and we were the

1238
00:56:34,316 --> 00:56:37,876
Speaker 4: only city freaks in the neighborhood of green Point Polish

1239
00:56:37,876 --> 00:56:41,276
Speaker 4: and Italian. And it'd be just crazy noise blasting this

1240
00:56:41,356 --> 00:56:43,236
Speaker 4: guitar and it sounded like some I don't know what

1241
00:56:43,316 --> 00:56:44,036
Speaker 4: it sounded like.

1242
00:56:44,316 --> 00:56:46,956
Speaker 3: It was so noisy, and it was Jay. He was

1243
00:56:47,036 --> 00:56:49,116
Speaker 3: dating this girl. He was up there, but we never

1244
00:56:49,196 --> 00:56:49,596
Speaker 3: talked that.

1245
00:56:49,636 --> 00:56:51,836
Speaker 4: I would hear him and hear him, and then years

1246
00:56:51,916 --> 00:56:54,476
Speaker 4: later we'd meet in different places and talk about that,

1247
00:56:54,716 --> 00:56:56,836
Speaker 4: and somehow that you know, we got a little friendly.

1248
00:56:57,436 --> 00:57:00,636
Speaker 4: But he I Guess was contacted and agreed to do

1249
00:57:00,716 --> 00:57:03,556
Speaker 4: the song, and we'd been a little bit in touch,

1250
00:57:03,636 --> 00:57:06,116
Speaker 4: but not during that time with this accident for me,

1251
00:57:06,756 --> 00:57:08,596
Speaker 4: and I just love the way they played. He changed

1252
00:57:08,636 --> 00:57:11,596
Speaker 4: it up, took some verses out. The drumming is great.

1253
00:57:11,676 --> 00:57:14,636
Speaker 4: I think the drum rolls and it just has a

1254
00:57:14,676 --> 00:57:19,756
Speaker 4: sleazy swagger and very different version. So I was really

1255
00:57:20,356 --> 00:57:25,076
Speaker 4: taken in. Of course, his guitar playing is really really cool. Yeah,

1256
00:57:25,956 --> 00:57:26,676
Speaker 4: that was nice.

1257
00:57:26,756 --> 00:57:29,236
Speaker 1: And bleachers they do prisoners.

1258
00:57:29,116 --> 00:57:30,236
Speaker 3: Prisons are Paradise.

1259
00:57:30,396 --> 00:57:33,316
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was another one where I heard it. And

1260
00:57:34,956 --> 00:57:37,516
Speaker 4: a month before this happened to me, I was in

1261
00:57:37,556 --> 00:57:42,036
Speaker 4: a dressing room in Brooklyn at the Barclays and seeing

1262
00:57:42,036 --> 00:57:45,756
Speaker 4: Bruce Springsteen and yeah, I'm just in this dressing room

1263
00:57:45,796 --> 00:57:47,436
Speaker 4: and it was kind of a strange thing.

1264
00:57:47,436 --> 00:57:48,596
Speaker 3: He just usually have to show.

1265
00:57:48,636 --> 00:57:51,076
Speaker 4: Sometimes they'll you'll get a text Bruce wants to say hello,

1266
00:57:51,196 --> 00:57:53,516
Speaker 4: and so we went back and I had missed him

1267
00:57:53,516 --> 00:57:54,036
Speaker 4: at the garden.

1268
00:57:54,036 --> 00:57:55,236
Speaker 3: So if we're going to say hello.

1269
00:57:55,076 --> 00:57:57,476
Speaker 4: And I get back in the dressing room and nobody

1270
00:57:57,476 --> 00:58:00,036
Speaker 4: really theres Bruce and this guy with crazy glasses on,

1271
00:58:00,236 --> 00:58:03,876
Speaker 4: younger guy and then in comes Jan Winner, who coincidently

1272
00:58:03,916 --> 00:58:06,396
Speaker 4: is in a wheelchair. I've never met Jan Winner, but

1273
00:58:06,636 --> 00:58:09,076
Speaker 4: it was nice. And everyone's talking to Bruce about the show.

1274
00:58:09,716 --> 00:58:12,516
Speaker 4: I started talking to Bruce about him meeting Sean McGowan

1275
00:58:12,636 --> 00:58:14,556
Speaker 4: recently went to his house, like, we're just having some

1276
00:58:14,636 --> 00:58:17,156
Speaker 4: music talk Bruce. You hang out with Bruce and you

1277
00:58:17,156 --> 00:58:19,316
Speaker 4: you forget that it's him. He's just like becomes one

1278
00:58:19,316 --> 00:58:21,036
Speaker 4: of your friends that you grew up with and geeking

1279
00:58:21,076 --> 00:58:23,916
Speaker 4: out on music like he's that. It really feels that real.

1280
00:58:23,996 --> 00:58:26,396
Speaker 4: And he's just down to earth like that. And there's

1281
00:58:26,396 --> 00:58:28,756
Speaker 4: this other guy and he's talking about suicide with these

1282
00:58:28,756 --> 00:58:31,036
Speaker 4: goofy glasses on. I'm like, what's this And he's really

1283
00:58:31,156 --> 00:58:33,316
Speaker 4: nice and he's like and Jesse knows, and we're talking

1284
00:58:33,356 --> 00:58:35,836
Speaker 4: about Alan Vega and we're talking to Bruce and then

1285
00:58:35,876 --> 00:58:38,036
Speaker 4: we leave. Bruce says, you know what, guys, I gotta go.

1286
00:58:38,356 --> 00:58:39,836
Speaker 4: He doesn't have one of these people to come in

1287
00:58:39,876 --> 00:58:41,596
Speaker 4: and say, you know, Bruce for five minutes, he just

1288
00:58:41,636 --> 00:58:43,836
Speaker 4: says it. He goes, right, okay, I'm out of here. Yeah,

1289
00:58:44,076 --> 00:58:46,116
Speaker 4: there's no problem, you know, being really directed.

1290
00:58:46,196 --> 00:58:46,916
Speaker 3: It's nice.

1291
00:58:47,756 --> 00:58:50,276
Speaker 4: I walk out into the street, you know, down and

1292
00:58:50,956 --> 00:58:52,596
Speaker 4: the guy that with the glasses says to me yeah,

1293
00:58:52,596 --> 00:58:54,156
Speaker 4: you want you want to take a ride into the city,

1294
00:58:54,236 --> 00:58:55,676
Speaker 4: you know, you need a ride. And I was like, nah,

1295
00:58:55,716 --> 00:58:57,756
Speaker 4: you know, I'll go to I'm gonna go drink at

1296
00:58:57,756 --> 00:59:00,036
Speaker 4: this bar or Smith Street Social or something. You know,

1297
00:59:00,076 --> 00:59:01,356
Speaker 4: I'm in Brooklyn for once, you know.

1298
00:59:01,956 --> 00:59:03,156
Speaker 3: But I didn't realize who it was.

1299
00:59:03,356 --> 00:59:05,836
Speaker 4: And I guess we had met before in some clubs,

1300
00:59:05,836 --> 00:59:07,116
Speaker 4: but it was Jack and.

1301
00:59:06,956 --> 00:59:08,036
Speaker 1: So it was some black Anton.

1302
00:59:08,236 --> 00:59:10,276
Speaker 4: Yeah, Jack Anton, And I was like, God, I should

1303
00:59:10,276 --> 00:59:11,956
Speaker 4: have probably taken a ride with him in the gap.

1304
00:59:11,996 --> 00:59:13,796
Speaker 4: Would have been a nice thing. He's got up studioed

1305
00:59:13,796 --> 00:59:16,596
Speaker 4: electric lady with neighbors. He was nice. I didn't realize

1306
00:59:16,596 --> 00:59:18,596
Speaker 4: who it was. Still after I'm like, oh, that's who

1307
00:59:18,636 --> 00:59:21,916
Speaker 4: it was. But somehow, you know, down the line, someone

1308
00:59:21,916 --> 00:59:24,636
Speaker 4: that knew someone a friend of a friend that bumped

1309
00:59:24,676 --> 00:59:30,076
Speaker 4: into someone that manages him, and somewhere in the summer

1310
00:59:30,116 --> 00:59:32,276
Speaker 4: and it came up and he was down to do.

1311
00:59:32,956 --> 00:59:34,836
Speaker 4: I guess they sent him a handful of songs. He

1312
00:59:34,876 --> 00:59:37,076
Speaker 4: picked prisoners, And when I heard it back, I was like, Wow,

1313
00:59:37,116 --> 00:59:41,356
Speaker 4: this is like Johnny Cash suicide. It's like such a

1314
00:59:41,516 --> 00:59:44,116
Speaker 4: cool like he's got his own spin, Like wow, this

1315
00:59:44,276 --> 00:59:46,396
Speaker 4: is great. And then they asked you, what do you

1316
00:59:46,396 --> 00:59:48,356
Speaker 4: think this record should be called? And that was the

1317
00:59:48,396 --> 00:59:50,636
Speaker 4: only input I had. I don't sing on it, you know,

1318
00:59:50,956 --> 00:59:52,676
Speaker 4: I wrote the songs, but you know, so I was like,

1319
00:59:52,716 --> 00:59:54,876
Speaker 4: I don't know, and then that song came in and

1320
00:59:54,916 --> 00:59:57,276
Speaker 4: I was like, Silver Patron Saints. It's in the verse

1321
00:59:57,316 --> 00:59:58,556
Speaker 4: of Prisoners that.

1322
00:59:58,316 --> 01:00:01,596
Speaker 3: There's some title. Yeah, he did so good. I love

1323
01:00:01,596 --> 01:00:02,436
Speaker 3: it when it's different.

1324
01:00:02,956 --> 01:00:05,316
Speaker 1: And then you know, there's some people from the good

1325
01:00:05,316 --> 01:00:09,996
Speaker 1: old days like yeah, hardcore, yeah, Agnostic Front and Murphy's

1326
01:00:10,076 --> 01:00:12,276
Speaker 1: Law and you know, doing well God is.

1327
01:00:12,316 --> 01:00:15,196
Speaker 3: Dead, Yeah, Agnostic Front did God His dad was like wow,

1328
01:00:15,276 --> 01:00:15,956
Speaker 3: realty stigma.

1329
01:00:16,356 --> 01:00:20,516
Speaker 4: But the thing that also, besides the great versions and

1330
01:00:20,556 --> 01:00:23,356
Speaker 4: how much people gave, is just to have a record

1331
01:00:23,436 --> 01:00:27,636
Speaker 4: that for me has Agnostic Front and Bruce Springsteen on

1332
01:00:27,676 --> 01:00:31,196
Speaker 4: it and Lucinda Williams and Murphy's Law, and it's like,

1333
01:00:31,316 --> 01:00:33,716
Speaker 4: I was like, I guess I have pretty crazy life,

1334
01:00:33,716 --> 01:00:34,636
Speaker 4: but it makes sense to me.

1335
01:00:35,796 --> 01:00:35,956
Speaker 3: You know.

1336
01:00:36,036 --> 01:00:39,796
Speaker 1: The last time I saw you, you were playing with

1337
01:00:39,916 --> 01:00:45,116
Speaker 1: Lucinda Williams and it was a City Winery show and

1338
01:00:45,476 --> 01:00:48,076
Speaker 1: people know that she had a stroke and has come

1339
01:00:48,116 --> 01:00:51,476
Speaker 1: back and she's had various problems, and it was after

1340
01:00:51,516 --> 01:00:54,556
Speaker 1: that and I remember during our interview, she was telling

1341
01:00:54,556 --> 01:00:57,036
Speaker 1: me how thrilled she was that you were working with

1342
01:00:57,076 --> 01:01:00,316
Speaker 1: her and what a great songwriter you were. So how

1343
01:01:00,476 --> 01:01:03,116
Speaker 1: is first of all, how do you guys originally meet?

1344
01:01:03,796 --> 01:01:06,636
Speaker 4: We met at the Blue Note at a Charlie Watts

1345
01:01:06,636 --> 01:01:10,356
Speaker 4: gig in two thousand and four. Yeah, I think Ryan

1346
01:01:10,396 --> 01:01:14,076
Speaker 4: adamspace Player might have been dating her Billy and I

1347
01:01:14,076 --> 01:01:17,396
Speaker 4: don't know. We all went there and I just hit

1348
01:01:17,436 --> 01:01:20,996
Speaker 4: it off. I'd been a fan, and we started, you know, talking,

1349
01:01:21,036 --> 01:01:23,836
Speaker 4: and just we stayed in touch and became friends. If

1350
01:01:23,836 --> 01:01:27,636
Speaker 4: we were in the same city, Chicago or La New York,

1351
01:01:27,676 --> 01:01:30,996
Speaker 4: we would get together and hang out, and you know,

1352
01:01:30,996 --> 01:01:33,516
Speaker 4: I have some really fun nights and great conversations. And

1353
01:01:33,516 --> 01:01:36,356
Speaker 4: we found out we have the same birthday and in January,

1354
01:01:36,596 --> 01:01:39,756
Speaker 4: and I just felt the real connection. And then I

1355
01:01:39,796 --> 01:01:41,596
Speaker 4: realized she lived in New York and she played in

1356
01:01:41,716 --> 01:01:43,956
Speaker 4: Queens where I'm from in the nineteen eighty She came

1357
01:01:43,996 --> 01:01:46,036
Speaker 4: and lived in East Village and lived where I was

1358
01:01:46,076 --> 01:01:48,836
Speaker 4: living now on Second Street and First Avenue at that time.

1359
01:01:48,876 --> 01:01:53,356
Speaker 4: And we just stayed friends and that was it. And

1360
01:01:53,396 --> 01:01:57,996
Speaker 4: then at one point we made a record, Sunset Kids,

1361
01:01:58,036 --> 01:02:00,676
Speaker 4: with my second and last record, from Now and her

1362
01:02:00,676 --> 01:02:03,596
Speaker 4: and her husband Tom Overbye produced the record and it

1363
01:02:03,636 --> 01:02:05,756
Speaker 4: was great and we did a little writing together too,

1364
01:02:06,196 --> 01:02:08,236
Speaker 4: and we had such a great experience making that record

1365
01:02:08,316 --> 01:02:10,036
Speaker 4: was one of my favorite. It's we did some in

1366
01:02:10,196 --> 01:02:11,996
Speaker 4: la where she was living, and some in New York.

1367
01:02:12,076 --> 01:02:15,236
Speaker 4: They love New York or and her husband. So when

1368
01:02:15,276 --> 01:02:17,556
Speaker 4: she had this stroke, I was so upset. It was

1369
01:02:17,676 --> 01:02:20,836
Speaker 4: COVID and it was just everything was so bleak. But

1370
01:02:20,916 --> 01:02:24,116
Speaker 4: she couldn't play guitar, and uh so, I don't know

1371
01:02:24,196 --> 01:02:26,196
Speaker 4: if I offered or they asked, but I ended up

1372
01:02:26,236 --> 01:02:28,996
Speaker 4: coming to Nashville several times and sat in the kitchen

1373
01:02:29,076 --> 01:02:33,756
Speaker 4: and wrote songs with them, you know, and we wrote

1374
01:02:33,756 --> 01:02:36,756
Speaker 4: a bunch and because she couldn't play guitar, play the guitar,

1375
01:02:36,876 --> 01:02:39,236
Speaker 4: and it was just trying to help out. And you know,

1376
01:02:39,236 --> 01:02:41,636
Speaker 4: know what would happen with these songs? They have many,

1377
01:02:41,876 --> 01:02:44,236
Speaker 4: We went through many, and some of them ended up

1378
01:02:44,236 --> 01:02:46,756
Speaker 4: on that record. And it was just, you know, a

1379
01:02:46,756 --> 01:02:48,956
Speaker 4: great experience. And you're sitting in the kitchen table and

1380
01:02:49,396 --> 01:02:51,756
Speaker 4: it's your friend and you're you know, bring out some carrits,

1381
01:02:51,756 --> 01:02:53,756
Speaker 4: bring out some chips and dip or whatever, and then

1382
01:02:53,836 --> 01:02:56,956
Speaker 4: here's a beer and then suddenly that voice.

1383
01:02:56,676 --> 01:02:58,836
Speaker 3: Pops out and you turn your head and it's listening there.

1384
01:02:58,876 --> 01:03:01,596
Speaker 4: It's like, wow, we're in the kitchen here, but it's

1385
01:03:01,596 --> 01:03:04,076
Speaker 4: a good place to cook up a song. And so

1386
01:03:04,156 --> 01:03:06,076
Speaker 4: I was helping her out with a stroke, so that

1387
01:03:06,356 --> 01:03:09,236
Speaker 4: some of the songs made the album and one that

1388
01:03:09,276 --> 01:03:11,676
Speaker 4: I sang with her on stage New yor Comeback and.

1389
01:03:11,476 --> 01:03:13,076
Speaker 3: Stuff like that. So yeah, have a few that I

1390
01:03:13,076 --> 01:03:13,716
Speaker 3: wrote with her.

1391
01:03:14,196 --> 01:03:16,836
Speaker 4: So it was really wild when then I have a stroke,

1392
01:03:16,956 --> 01:03:20,116
Speaker 4: you know, after just doing this helping somebody, and a

1393
01:03:20,116 --> 01:03:23,956
Speaker 4: different kind of stroke. But yeah, it was It was

1394
01:03:24,116 --> 01:03:26,476
Speaker 4: just another strange thing connected to this.

1395
01:03:26,676 --> 01:03:29,756
Speaker 1: You talk about sitting with a guitar writing songs with her.

1396
01:03:30,156 --> 01:03:33,516
Speaker 1: Have songs not to say, songs ever come easily? Have

1397
01:03:33,556 --> 01:03:35,956
Speaker 1: they always come for you? Has music always come if you?

1398
01:03:36,116 --> 01:03:37,596
Speaker 1: If you sit down with a guitar and you know

1399
01:03:37,676 --> 01:03:39,236
Speaker 1: something's going to come out at the other end.

1400
01:03:39,396 --> 01:03:41,796
Speaker 4: Well, the more you sit down, the more you'll get stuff.

1401
01:03:41,836 --> 01:03:44,596
Speaker 4: I mean, there is writer's block. It's a real, real thing.

1402
01:03:44,836 --> 01:03:47,596
Speaker 4: I was once on a songwriter panel in south By,

1403
01:03:47,596 --> 01:03:49,996
Speaker 4: Southwest with a bunch of writers, and one was Pat

1404
01:03:49,996 --> 01:03:52,556
Speaker 4: de Nunzio, the late Patnunzio, the Smith of Reens seeing

1405
01:03:52,556 --> 01:03:53,996
Speaker 4: a lot of hits and funny guy.

1406
01:03:54,356 --> 01:03:55,716
Speaker 3: So somebody asked the question, you know.

1407
01:03:55,676 --> 01:03:58,156
Speaker 4: Hey, hey, Pat, you know what's what's the best cure

1408
01:03:58,236 --> 01:04:02,756
Speaker 4: for writer's block? And he said, ass in chair. And

1409
01:04:03,236 --> 01:04:05,036
Speaker 4: the thing is that if you sit down and you

1410
01:04:05,036 --> 01:04:07,196
Speaker 4: you know you're gonna you might And I record a

1411
01:04:07,236 --> 01:04:08,116
Speaker 4: lot of stuff that I do.

1412
01:04:08,156 --> 01:04:08,596
Speaker 3: It's nice.

1413
01:04:08,596 --> 01:04:10,436
Speaker 4: You think it's garbage, and guards you can listen back

1414
01:04:10,476 --> 01:04:12,556
Speaker 4: a week later or a couple of days and there's

1415
01:04:12,596 --> 01:04:14,716
Speaker 4: something in there. Every time you sit down. You might

1416
01:04:14,756 --> 01:04:17,116
Speaker 4: not finish a song and write Bridge over Trouble Water

1417
01:04:17,236 --> 01:04:20,036
Speaker 4: or whatever. But if you sit down you do it,

1418
01:04:20,036 --> 01:04:22,316
Speaker 4: you're gonna get something. I mean, you know, and then

1419
01:04:22,356 --> 01:04:24,396
Speaker 4: some days you're gonna hit some really good things. So

1420
01:04:24,436 --> 01:04:27,036
Speaker 4: I think to stay active with it. And then another

1421
01:04:27,076 --> 01:04:29,036
Speaker 4: thing I got was like the Joe Strummer thing, like

1422
01:04:29,116 --> 01:04:32,996
Speaker 4: no input, no output. You know, you gotta constantly as

1423
01:04:32,996 --> 01:04:35,276
Speaker 4: a writer. If I listen to my favorite records, I'm

1424
01:04:35,316 --> 01:04:38,876
Speaker 4: desensitized to them. I love them unless I'm a little drunk,

1425
01:04:38,876 --> 01:04:40,676
Speaker 4: a little buzzed, and I hear it in a different way.

1426
01:04:40,756 --> 01:04:43,676
Speaker 4: But otherwise they don't want to hear new things. They

1427
01:04:43,676 --> 01:04:45,236
Speaker 4: make me want to write when I see a new

1428
01:04:45,276 --> 01:04:48,276
Speaker 4: film where I get like, when something's just coming at

1429
01:04:48,316 --> 01:04:50,676
Speaker 4: me for the first time, it inspires me to kind

1430
01:04:50,676 --> 01:04:53,756
Speaker 4: of do that. I used to carry little notebook. Now

1431
01:04:53,756 --> 01:04:55,916
Speaker 4: sometimes I write on the phone. People think you're texting.

1432
01:04:55,956 --> 01:04:58,076
Speaker 4: If I go to a film, I get ideas, just

1433
01:04:58,756 --> 01:05:01,116
Speaker 4: got you gotta cut out the world. We're always being

1434
01:05:01,116 --> 01:05:05,076
Speaker 4: inundated with with you know, emails and this and Instagram

1435
01:05:05,116 --> 01:05:07,836
Speaker 4: and like that early part of the morning, to not

1436
01:05:07,916 --> 01:05:10,476
Speaker 4: turn the phone on that late at night, you know,

1437
01:05:10,596 --> 01:05:13,916
Speaker 4: like just to really get that quiet time, and also

1438
01:05:14,076 --> 01:05:16,636
Speaker 4: to take things in and from all different things and

1439
01:05:16,836 --> 01:05:18,236
Speaker 4: then be able to spit it out.

1440
01:05:18,876 --> 01:05:20,676
Speaker 1: It makes sense that I didn't know you were so

1441
01:05:20,716 --> 01:05:23,436
Speaker 1: interested in film, but you've got very visual songs. You're

1442
01:05:23,436 --> 01:05:24,116
Speaker 1: that kind of writer.

1443
01:05:24,796 --> 01:05:25,196
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1444
01:05:25,756 --> 01:05:28,276
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know a certain film a certain period of time.

1445
01:05:28,316 --> 01:05:30,516
Speaker 4: But still it's like, you know, I just saw a movie,

1446
01:05:31,716 --> 01:05:34,476
Speaker 4: the Last Showgirl. It was with Pamela Anderson, which I

1447
01:05:34,516 --> 01:05:36,196
Speaker 4: know what that was gonna be like, and it was.

1448
01:05:36,036 --> 01:05:37,076
Speaker 3: It was really good.

1449
01:05:37,276 --> 01:05:40,556
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a female version of the Wrestler in a way,

1450
01:05:40,636 --> 01:05:42,916
Speaker 4: but made by one of the couple of grandchildren.

1451
01:05:43,156 --> 01:05:46,756
Speaker 1: With that After you had your stroke, did the music

1452
01:05:46,796 --> 01:05:49,036
Speaker 1: go for a while or were you were you sitting

1453
01:05:49,076 --> 01:05:51,756
Speaker 1: there you spent I'm sure a lot of long, tedious

1454
01:05:51,796 --> 01:05:53,876
Speaker 1: hours in hospitals.

1455
01:05:53,876 --> 01:05:57,076
Speaker 4: Were you thinking, yeah, well, every little thing you got

1456
01:05:57,116 --> 01:05:59,796
Speaker 4: to do is taking so long, and everything is very scary,

1457
01:06:00,036 --> 01:06:02,516
Speaker 4: and you know, this is all kinds of tests. And

1458
01:06:03,076 --> 01:06:05,076
Speaker 4: but I did eventually get the guitar brought to the

1459
01:06:05,156 --> 01:06:07,316
Speaker 4: hospital and see what it was like, and to see

1460
01:06:07,356 --> 01:06:10,076
Speaker 4: what it was like to sing. And eventually when it

1461
01:06:10,196 --> 01:06:11,636
Speaker 4: got me, trump me how to get out of the

1462
01:06:11,676 --> 01:06:13,636
Speaker 4: bed and had to get my body in a wheelchair

1463
01:06:13,796 --> 01:06:16,556
Speaker 4: was a big step. And then eventually the guitar was

1464
01:06:16,596 --> 01:06:19,276
Speaker 4: sitting in the corner, and eventually the wheelchair rolled over

1465
01:06:19,316 --> 01:06:22,196
Speaker 4: and I closed the hospital door. You know, as much

1466
01:06:22,236 --> 01:06:25,636
Speaker 4: as I played lots of people all these years, when

1467
01:06:25,676 --> 01:06:28,036
Speaker 4: I'm alone playing a guitar or writing a song, it's

1468
01:06:28,076 --> 01:06:31,676
Speaker 4: a very private, you know, personal moment. And I didn't

1469
01:06:31,676 --> 01:06:33,196
Speaker 4: know it was going to sound like. And I closed

1470
01:06:33,196 --> 01:06:35,556
Speaker 4: the hospital door and I just started to sing. And

1471
01:06:35,636 --> 01:06:38,476
Speaker 4: I think the first song I did was a Room thirteen,

1472
01:06:38,556 --> 01:06:43,436
Speaker 4: which is one from Sunset Kids, and a song about

1473
01:06:43,476 --> 01:06:45,996
Speaker 4: being isolated and having to reflect on your whole life.

1474
01:06:46,036 --> 01:06:48,236
Speaker 4: But I don't know why, I just it's a key

1475
01:06:48,276 --> 01:06:50,356
Speaker 4: that I thought would be nice, and I was like, oh,

1476
01:06:50,396 --> 01:06:52,676
Speaker 4: this is here, and little by little I would play

1477
01:06:52,956 --> 01:06:55,396
Speaker 4: and didn't have a lot of time, and eventually I

1478
01:06:55,716 --> 01:06:58,716
Speaker 4: wheeled myself into We got me in a car, in

1479
01:06:58,756 --> 01:07:00,836
Speaker 4: the back of a special cab or whatever, and I

1480
01:07:00,916 --> 01:07:03,676
Speaker 4: got down to a rehearsal place where it didn't have stairs,

1481
01:07:03,716 --> 01:07:05,556
Speaker 4: and they put a mic in front of me, and

1482
01:07:05,596 --> 01:07:07,836
Speaker 4: the band was there and selling. Those guys were right

1483
01:07:07,836 --> 01:07:10,516
Speaker 4: in front of me, and it was super emotional, but

1484
01:07:10,636 --> 01:07:13,836
Speaker 4: it seemed to go really well, and I was just like, wow,

1485
01:07:13,876 --> 01:07:16,676
Speaker 4: this is still here, you know. And it was hard

1486
01:07:16,716 --> 01:07:18,916
Speaker 4: to sit and things hurt my shoulder getting over the

1487
01:07:18,996 --> 01:07:20,476
Speaker 4: Like it was a lot of different because I'm a

1488
01:07:20,556 --> 01:07:23,556
Speaker 4: very physical singer, at least the ones I always grew

1489
01:07:23,636 --> 01:07:26,036
Speaker 4: up watching from the Bad Rains Tootus reading. It's like

1490
01:07:26,076 --> 01:07:28,836
Speaker 4: it was your body and I'm nervous, so like I

1491
01:07:28,916 --> 01:07:30,756
Speaker 4: moved my body a lot, but like it was a

1492
01:07:30,756 --> 01:07:33,476
Speaker 4: different focus and it felt good.

1493
01:07:34,236 --> 01:07:37,036
Speaker 1: Well, keep writing now. It's been just wonderful talking to you.

1494
01:07:37,116 --> 01:07:39,316
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming in. Yeah, thanks for

1495
01:07:39,356 --> 01:07:40,676
Speaker 1: having us, great luck with everything.

1496
01:07:40,956 --> 01:07:41,356
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1497
01:07:44,396 --> 01:07:46,156
Speaker 2: In the episode description, you'll find a link to a

1498
01:07:46,196 --> 01:07:48,996
Speaker 2: playlist to some of our favorite Jesse Mallen tracks. Be

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Speaker 2: sure to check us out on YouTube at YouTube dot

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Speaker 2: com slash Broken Record Podcast to see all of our

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Speaker 2: video interviews, and be sure to follow us on Instagram

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Speaker 2: at the Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on

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Speaker 2: Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited

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Speaker 2: by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric Sandler and

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Speaker 2: Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tom Broken Record is

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Speaker 2: a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show

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Speaker 2: and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin

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Speaker 2: Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and

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Speaker 2: add for listening for four ninety nine a month. Look

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Speaker 2: for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you

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Speaker 2: like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review

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Speaker 2: us on your podcast. Apt are the Music's by Kenny Beats.

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Speaker 2: I'm justin Richmond.