Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, Revisionist history listeners.
Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Revisionist history listeners.
Speaker 2: History Listeners, Hello, Hello, Revisionist History Listeners.
Speaker 1: That didn't sound quite right, did it. It's got to
Speaker 1: be more like this. Hello, Hello, Revisionist History Listeners. I'm
Speaker 1: quite grateful that our loyal fans like the sound of
Speaker 1: my voice. But why is that? My dear friend, The actress, director, writer,
Speaker 1: producer Lake Bell is obsessed with people's voices, and frankly,
Speaker 1: I'm a little obsessed with Lake. So it made sense
Speaker 1: for Lake to join Pushkin's ranks with her new audiobook,
Speaker 1: Inside Voice. The book is a deep dive into what
Speaker 1: our voices mean and what they say about us. Lake
Speaker 1: explores the psychology and social science of voice. She talks
Speaker 1: with icons like Drew Barrymore, Jeff gold Bloom, and Pam Greer.
Speaker 1: And when she started questioning herself, she talked to me
Speaker 1: she was struggling with how to write about the phenomenon
Speaker 1: of the sexy baby voice. How could she enjoy and
Speaker 1: respect Paris Hilton. They're Kardashians and various flavors of real housewives,
Speaker 1: all sexy babies, but definitively absolutely not want her own
Speaker 1: daughter to grow up to be one. It made her
Speaker 1: feel like a judgmental jerk. So I was the shrink
Speaker 1: and Lake got on the couch and we had fun
Speaker 1: working through that one. I may even have tried to
Speaker 1: put on a little sexy baby voice myself. Enjoy this
Speaker 1: sample chapter and then go buy yourself a copy at
Speaker 1: Inside Voice, audiobook dot Com, Audible, Spotify, or anywhere audiobooks
Speaker 1: are sold. I'll be back before year's end with some
Speaker 1: bonus episodes of revisionist history.
Speaker 2: When you guys think of like a strong woman's voice,
Speaker 2: what does that sound like? Someone just like fluent and confident?
Speaker 2: Anyone come to mind? Michelle Obama? Yeah, I think just
Speaker 2: arian because she's been very advocated for the God is
Speaker 2: a woman thing.
Speaker 3: So I'm just like Ariana Grande Queen Latifah.
Speaker 2: I would have to say, Michelle Obama.
Speaker 1: Kirsty Ally, I think has a very deep, powerful voice.
Speaker 1: My mom, Yeah, my mom for sure, Yeah, my mom.
Speaker 4: Oprah the same here, I would go, I agree with
Speaker 4: that one.
Speaker 2: Oprah Dafan the Oprah Okay. Lena Horn, yeah, speaking voice too. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Lena Horn is my wife. My life is stronger and
Speaker 2: I really love her and I proud for you. What
Speaker 2: about an alluring sexy female voice? Jennifer Aniston, Angelina, Jolie.
Speaker 1: Kerrie Washington.
Speaker 3: Oh that was good, Angelina, Jolie Coobe, Siri.
Speaker 2: I think Siri? Yeah maybe, Oh you could be different.
Speaker 2: See boys, I don't know. I just think of Catwoman.
Speaker 2: When I think of a sexy woman, I'm like Catwoman.
Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian.
Speaker 2: So your turn. When you think of a strong woman,
Speaker 2: what does she sound like? Does she sound like this?
Speaker 1: We want people who are redefining what it means to
Speaker 1: be strong, to be powerful, to be inspirational, to be aspirational, to.
Speaker 2: Be astoundingly aged, defying or does she sound like this?
Speaker 2: Kylie called Chloe and said, Hey, I want to take
Speaker 2: over your party. Just send me the list. Three seconds later,
Speaker 2: Chloe text me, did you tell Kylie about the parties?
Speaker 2: And I don't know what are you talking about? What party?
Speaker 2: Make no mistake, both of these women are powerful. Another test,
Speaker 2: when you think of a sexy woman, what does she
Speaker 2: sound like? Does she sound like this?
Speaker 1: Isn't this a coincidence?
Speaker 5: I know you you're the one that doesn't like to
Speaker 5: talk about the heat too bad.
Speaker 1: I tell you about my.
Speaker 2: Child, or does she sound like this? I like Barnette's
Speaker 2: sexy voice and laugh a lot. I kind of like
Speaker 2: that he gave off a vibe that he was a player.
Speaker 2: One of the more questionable, nay controversial trends to come
Speaker 2: out of gen Z is the sexy baby voice. What
Speaker 2: is that you say? Let me remind you my evening's
Speaker 2: going amazing because I have a ruse.
Speaker 3: I like was gone for a whole week and still
Speaker 3: all we can talk about is Crystal.
Speaker 1: All we can think about is Crystal.
Speaker 3: I like, don't want to make this a.
Speaker 2: Night about to honor and kick off this discussion. Here
Speaker 2: is a never before seen and heard scene from My
Speaker 2: Future in a World, a film that I wrote, directed
Speaker 2: and start in entirely about the voiceover industry, because, as
Speaker 2: we've already established, I'm clearly obsessed. This deleted scene depicts
Speaker 2: my character Carol, trying to coach a sexy baby into
Speaker 2: finding her true sound.
Speaker 1: Roll it.
Speaker 2: So when he told you here's writing a book where
Speaker 2: you just like, holy shit, that's amaze balls.
Speaker 3: Can I do a vocal experiment on you? Why?
Speaker 2: Why not?
Speaker 3: Because that's a weird question to ask.
Speaker 2: I don't even know you Carol, you were just interviewing me.
Speaker 3: Still weird.
Speaker 5: I'm a vocal coach, I'm a writer.
Speaker 2: Be good for the story.
Speaker 3: Fine, fine, okay, good. So you're just gonna count a ten,
Speaker 3: but when you get to the odd numbers, you're gonna
Speaker 3: use the lowest point in your register, and when you
Speaker 3: get to the even numbers, you're gonna use the highest
Speaker 3: point in your register. And then right after you're just
Speaker 3: gonna speak without thinking. So you're gonna go one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, hey,
Speaker 3: nine ten.
Speaker 5: Here's my voice.
Speaker 3: One two, three, four, five, six seven nine ten.
Speaker 2: Here's my voice. Oh my god. Right, that's so weird.
Speaker 2: It sounds lower, and it sounds.
Speaker 3: A mass pulse.
Speaker 2: Let's make something crystal clear before we delve into the
Speaker 2: sexy baby zone, which is also a no judgment zone.
Speaker 2: This is a safe place to regard and appreciate a
Speaker 2: unique cultural phenomenon. In fact, I have long been inspired
Speaker 2: and in awe of this vocal trend and seek to
Speaker 2: focus on it through a cultural lens. What factors brought
Speaker 2: it into the American English language in the first place,
Speaker 2: and how did it evolve over time for any one person.
Speaker 2: In my formative years, it was Paris Hilton. I thought
Speaker 2: she was extraordinary, hilarious, awesome, larger than life, and there
Speaker 2: was something really special there. Sure, much of the allure
Speaker 2: was the outfits and the status, but there was something
Speaker 2: unique about Paris that nobody else could quite emulate. Nobody
Speaker 2: could get to that level of her stardom. Why the voice?
Speaker 2: She captured the world with a voice that broadcasted both
Speaker 2: little girl submission and overt sexuality concurrently unfathomable feat or
Speaker 2: was it?
Speaker 3: I just have like a drive inside of me, like
Speaker 3: I love creating, I love doing what I do.
Speaker 2: I love making people happy, and I love making money.
Speaker 1: Paris, thanks so much for being here. I appreciate I
Speaker 1: know that he waves been crazy. It was like ninety
Speaker 1: seven degrees.
Speaker 4: Of a day.
Speaker 2: That's hot.
Speaker 1: Did you see that.
Speaker 2: Ross and Rachel might be dating a real life that's hot?
Speaker 1: How would you pronounce Vin Hart's last name in a
Speaker 1: British accent?
Speaker 2: That's hot? It is hot? And yet I want to
Speaker 2: admit that I struggle. Okay, there's a struggle here. If
Speaker 2: my personal cultural north star is creating space for a
Speaker 2: female vocal sound to imbue trustworthiness, all knowing electable authority,
Speaker 2: then how does the rampant trend of the sexy baby
Speaker 2: voice impact that effort? I mean, I can admit that
Speaker 2: I enjoy the wildly moorish entertainment provided by the Audis
Speaker 2: Paris Hilton, the storm that is, the Kardashians and every
Speaker 2: Real housewives of whatever the fuck they're all flooded with
Speaker 2: sexy babies. But here's the kicker. Do I want my
Speaker 2: daughter to grow up and speak like that? The answer
Speaker 2: is hell no. And see now I feel bad. Now,
Speaker 2: I feel like some judgmental jerk. I'm genuinely in an
Speaker 2: existential crisis on this issue. So I opted to phone
Speaker 2: a friend. But not just any friend. I needed a
Speaker 2: deep thinker who also happened to be a best selling author,
Speaker 2: a public speaker type that the whole world has stamped
Speaker 2: an authority on unpacking big and controversial ideas. So I
Speaker 2: turned to the iconic public speaker, best selling author of
Speaker 2: multiple zeitgeist making books like The Tipping Point and Outliers,
Speaker 2: among others, and of course, founder of Pushkin Industries. That's right,
Speaker 2: Malcolm Gladwell. Malcolm has been hearing about my deep seated
Speaker 2: sexy baby struggle four years at this point, and Frankly,
Speaker 2: he's the only person who can flip the script and
Speaker 2: interrogate me on this very issue that I myself have
Speaker 2: brought to the proverbial table.
Speaker 1: Wait wait, okay, hold up, there'd be much more specific
Speaker 1: and break it down. First of all, we have these
Speaker 1: elements that you've identified. Are they all equally important or
Speaker 1: are they they they all play You can't rank them.
Speaker 1: You can't say, sexy baby is sixty percent, this, twenty percent?
Speaker 2: This, No, it's a cocktail.
Speaker 1: It's a cocktail. Okay, number one, the vocal fright.
Speaker 2: I would say number one, pitch.
Speaker 1: Pitch.
Speaker 2: Okay, I would go straight to pitch, because first you've
Speaker 2: gotta this is very hard for me to do, is
Speaker 2: to kind of dial in because I enjoy kind of
Speaker 2: putting all cocktail together because it's like once you have
Speaker 2: a martini, it's like you always want the mix. So
Speaker 2: if I can just get the pitch, it's so we're here,
Speaker 2: and I'm already starting to fry a little bit, but
Speaker 2: I'm trying not to so that I can just take pitch.
Speaker 2: This is pitch. So this is like if I were
Speaker 2: to be talking to you in an intellectual way, but
Speaker 2: I'm just pitched up.
Speaker 1: Okay, yes, now then you layer on that. Now, by
Speaker 1: the way, do you ever we're not talking about Sexy Baby,
Speaker 1: We're talking about Lake Bell. Hi. Do you ever operate
Speaker 1: in that pitch?
Speaker 2: Never?
Speaker 1: Never?
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, even a a in a sexual encounter, if
Speaker 5: I may, I do not find myself pitching up to
Speaker 5: that level or because that's the only time I could think.
Speaker 2: Sorry, very revealing.
Speaker 1: When you spoke to your children when they were babies,
Speaker 1: did you go off that h No, oh you did.
Speaker 2: No. I would never go this high for anything. But
Speaker 2: first of all, it's you know, it's athletic. That's one
Speaker 2: of the things about Sexy Baby is that it's like
Speaker 2: hard to do, like you have to work hard at it.
Speaker 2: It is an athletic.
Speaker 1: Feat layer in the next thing.
Speaker 2: The next thing would be fry. And I'm guilty of
Speaker 2: a little fry here and there. I think we all are.
Speaker 2: We have a sprinkle of fry. You know, it's like
Speaker 2: a cultural trend. It's like skinny jeans. You know, it's in,
Speaker 2: and then we all kind of adopt it and we
Speaker 2: don't even notice. So notice, no, you know, I got
Speaker 2: a little there. So when you have this and then
Speaker 2: you start adding in the fry, So.
Speaker 1: Teach me how to do fry. Assume I've never heard
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 2: Again, I'm not a professional, but I will say the
Speaker 2: fry is a croak. It's in the back of your throat,
Speaker 2: so you're gonna roll it kind of like you're a frog.
Speaker 2: So closer. So so give me like a like why,
Speaker 2: like why close?
Speaker 1: I'm getting there.
Speaker 2: The thing is, you have some you have some, take
Speaker 2: some water, you have some. You're swallowing it, so you're going, ah,
Speaker 2: you're getting stuck in a tightness in your throat versus
Speaker 2: like forward opening it up.
Speaker 1: Just a.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so.
Speaker 1: Getting in. I don't know how to form a word
Speaker 1: with that.
Speaker 2: Too, like why why?
Speaker 1: Why? Why? Wait? Do that? Do?
Speaker 2: Like why? Ah?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: You see?
Speaker 1: So like why no you don't the fry in the uptalk?
Speaker 1: Is there a place in the sentence where those two
Speaker 1: things operate. So we're always in the upper register, So
Speaker 1: pitch is a constant, but we're not frying everything.
Speaker 2: Uh, fry is like seasoning. You can't fry all the
Speaker 2: way through or else you would just have a croak sound.
Speaker 2: So fry is really kind of like there's a dance there. So,
Speaker 2: for instance, in my normal speech, I would say, for instance,
Speaker 2: and that's a plateau. We're just like on a road
Speaker 2: going forward. For instance, is obviously a classic up talk
Speaker 2: with a little sprinkle of fry and pitch up.
Speaker 1: What work is fry doing? Is it comic? Is it
Speaker 1: for emphasis?
Speaker 2: I think it comes from a place of like sex.
Speaker 2: This is part of the sexy flavor of spice, because
Speaker 2: I think when I've interviewed people, Hey, you know what's
Speaker 2: the most alluring sexy voice in a woman? It tends
Speaker 2: to be croakier voices. It tends to be smokier voices.
Speaker 2: And whether they're high voices or low voices, they all
Speaker 2: seem to have that element in them.
Speaker 1: And it's paradoxical because it's a smoky kind of guttural
Speaker 1: thing that's taking place at a very high Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to think of like men who fry,
Speaker 2: because there's a ton of men who fry as well.
Speaker 1: You know who fries? Who fries? Henry Kissinger, he fries. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's a it's a kind of German.
Speaker 2: Fry, a Truman fry.
Speaker 1: No, it's a kind of like but it is the
Speaker 1: friendship upset.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I will mistake anything on the proposition that before
Speaker 4: the end of this year, Goebachev will be in Washington,
Speaker 4: and I'll take only a little lesson the proposition that
Speaker 4: before the end of next year President Reagan will be
Speaker 4: in Moscow.
Speaker 1: But wait, you did something else and Sexy Baby that
Speaker 1: you haven't talked about, which is you were also running
Speaker 1: some words together.
Speaker 2: So that's the that is quality. So yeah, that's a
Speaker 2: little I will say that kind of creeps into performance
Speaker 2: a little bit to help me get in there, you know,
Speaker 2: just as an actor and as a performer, for instance,
Speaker 2: with accents, I have either a hand jester or you know,
Speaker 2: a catchphrase to get you into an accent, like Irish
Speaker 2: is pulled Bach on the bull on the bout. I
Speaker 2: don't know if I'll ever need to put anything in
Speaker 2: a bucket, but in an Irish accent probably you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. So like that's like my in there.
Speaker 1: In my experience with hearing Sexy Baby in the wild, Yes,
Speaker 1: in there, sentences without spaces. Imagine typing a set. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's no punctuation, there's no punctuation whatsoever. It's that that
Speaker 1: irritates me.
Speaker 2: And like what really bothers me about climate change or whatever?
Speaker 2: Is that like we're now working together, and like if
Speaker 2: we could just like work together, like you didn't meet,
Speaker 2: so much more of our power together and like that
Speaker 2: for me is just like swim we're it, meaning we're it.
Speaker 1: If I was like an oil company and I wanted
Speaker 1: to really get people to be skeptical of climate change,
Speaker 1: I would just run of what you just said.
Speaker 2: That's here's the yell. Drying a car like gas or
Speaker 2: whatever is like just like American.
Speaker 1: But there's so there's there's that running together, and then
Speaker 1: there's also a little bit of slurring that you're adding.
Speaker 2: There's no you're right, there's like a little bit of sorry,
Speaker 2: I think that I just want to say something that's
Speaker 2: really important. It's just like it doesn't mean you're not smart.
Speaker 2: The accent and the dialect. Why I have a bone
Speaker 2: to pick with it is because like I am a
Speaker 2: feminist and like I don't want to think of women
Speaker 2: as little sexy babies that can't think for themselves, and
Speaker 2: so it's really hard for me. I really think of
Speaker 2: it as a trend that's gotten out of control. You know,
Speaker 2: it was kind of cute for a beat. It was
Speaker 2: in a movie or two, you know, and there was
Speaker 2: a kind of a texture of sound that was born
Speaker 2: from the California a surfer girl community, valley esque environment.
Speaker 2: But I do think that that compounded with the history
Speaker 2: like before that, where did it come from? It's like, okay,
Speaker 2: there's Betty Boop, And I think that Betty Boop is
Speaker 2: a good place to start just as a reference, because
Speaker 2: it's very distinct. She is sexualized, she's not homely, the
Speaker 2: ideas that she's alluring.
Speaker 1: But there's no fry in Betty Boop.
Speaker 2: Boo, No, there's not. There's not. Betty Boop is kind
Speaker 2: of the original sexy baby though, just as a concept.
Speaker 1: That's the where the archetype comes from.
Speaker 2: Yeah, boo do do boop boop be doop.
Speaker 1: But there's been a great deal of linguistic innovation, yes,
Speaker 1: between then, and how does Marilyn Monroe fit into this evolution?
Speaker 1: That's breathiness, is it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? But she also is broadcasting a bedroom voice, so
Speaker 2: why I just don't know, and a little baby voice
Speaker 2: but you know, oh well listen, peaky. You know that's
Speaker 2: very high pitched. So you've got the grounds there for
Speaker 2: that starting place, which is we didn't really get the
Speaker 2: breathiness in the sexy baby voice. But we got that pitch,
Speaker 2: you know, and that alluring sexy nature of bedroom talk
Speaker 2: that's like outward and being exposed to everyone. I mean,
Speaker 2: that was her whole thing. So that's why I have
Speaker 2: the word sexy in it.
Speaker 1: It's super interesting because if we think of Paris Hilton
Speaker 1: and Kim Kardashian as people who are taking the intimacy
Speaker 1: of the sex tape and kind of taking it public,
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe's famous Happy Birthday sung to JFK when she
Speaker 1: was presumably in the middle of having an affair with
Speaker 1: is the same thing, right. I mean, she's essentially saying,
Speaker 1: I'm having an affair with this guy. Right, That's the
Speaker 1: whole point of the happy Birthday thing, is this is
Speaker 1: the way we are when we're in bed together, and
Speaker 1: I'm doing it in front of the entire country. It's
Speaker 1: like such an incredible like it's like this, fuck you
Speaker 1: first of all to Jackie. I mean, it's just but
Speaker 1: it's an extraordinary it is an extraordinary cultural moment.
Speaker 3: Day to you.
Speaker 2: Happy birthday.
Speaker 1: So Paris Hilm comes along in the aughts, right, talking
Speaker 1: like this, and it becomes a kind of sensation and
Speaker 1: it proves quite culturally contagious, and I'm wondering why why
Speaker 1: would the sexy baby voice come back at that moment.
Speaker 2: It boils down to sex tapes, kind of like the
Speaker 2: women that we're talking about. If we're going to bring
Speaker 2: up Paris and Kim, they both had that right. They
Speaker 2: had a sex tape that was leaked. And by the way,
Speaker 2: speaking of another classic voice and a sex tape, pamel Anderson.
Speaker 2: Now that voice, you know, is effective, and so I
Speaker 2: feel like there's something there where it's like taking the
Speaker 2: bedroom voice and broadcasting it and allowing for that intimacy
Speaker 2: to be a part of the brand. Rhymestones. There's no
Speaker 2: such thing as too many rhinestones, because it's hot to
Speaker 2: bling as much as possible.
Speaker 1: You have complicated feelings about sexy Baby, which I want
Speaker 1: to kind of dig into a little bit. You've alluded
Speaker 1: to them here and there, but you have a sexy
Speaker 1: baby problem.
Speaker 2: I have unwelcome judgment in my views on it because
Speaker 2: even in Penning in a World, it was part of
Speaker 2: the you know, sort of joke of it was, what
Speaker 2: is this trend, this plague that is infecting our women?
Speaker 2: And it felt like regression. It felt not like progress
Speaker 2: just on a feminist bent. It is a sound that
Speaker 2: parkens Our ears back to a time when you are
Speaker 2: a child, when you have to ask for things, you
Speaker 2: don't have agency, And so why is that sound? A
Speaker 2: submissive little girl sound somehow sexy. All of a sudden,
Speaker 2: I had a bone to pick with that. You started
Speaker 2: to see women who were in their forties have great jobs,
Speaker 2: their lawyers, their CEO or whatever, and they started to
Speaker 2: have this sound. And that's where I got confused and
Speaker 2: upset because I thought, Okay, so you're saying, especially as
Speaker 2: a mother, society is allowing for or supporting this idea
Speaker 2: that women can sound like little girls and be leaders.
Speaker 2: And that for me was difficult because I don't want
Speaker 2: my daughter to think that that's how you're supposed to sound.
Speaker 2: I don't want my son to think that women should
Speaker 2: sound that way. And I feel bad for feeling uncomfortable
Speaker 2: because I think that women should sound. However, the dam this.
Speaker 1: Is why I don't understand. I don't understand why you
Speaker 1: feel bad about being uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: Because I'm a woman. We feel badly for judging other women.
Speaker 1: But hold on the argument that you're making in your book,
Speaker 1: is that a lot of the way we sound is
Speaker 1: a choice. So women, a certain group of women have
Speaker 1: chosen either consciously or unconsciously, to sound this way. They
Speaker 1: don't have to sound this way, right, They have options. Yes,
Speaker 1: our voice is our own. We control the way we sound.
Speaker 1: And you're simply saying that's a bad choice or a
Speaker 1: problematic choice.
Speaker 2: You are saying that I should feel comfortable with feeling uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, I'm wondering why you're so conflicted about the
Speaker 1: fact that you find this voice to be an issue.
Speaker 2: Okay, So because, for instance, I have a pal let's
Speaker 2: call her RS, and she has a very high pitched voice,
Speaker 2: naturally off the truck. Okay, So she's not putting it on.
Speaker 2: She just has that voice. I love her. She's so sweet.
Speaker 2: She's got a little fry then a little uptalk. But
Speaker 2: she's a mom of three, she works hard, and I
Speaker 2: just know her. And so it's people like that where
Speaker 2: I go. I know she's not putting it on. I
Speaker 2: also understand that she's probably not a vocally obsessed person
Speaker 2: and isn't thinking about it so much. And so when
Speaker 2: you say it's a choice, I concur that it is
Speaker 2: a choice. Once you listen to it, and once you're
Speaker 2: aware of it and you're in the room with it.
Speaker 2: But I think that it's important in my research on
Speaker 2: this to allow for there to be space for that's
Speaker 2: just how they speak, but when it's something that's like
Speaker 2: plaguing someone and they're kind of using it as a tool,
Speaker 2: especially when it comes to a woman of a certain
Speaker 2: age who's imbuing this sound that's of a young woman.
Speaker 2: You know, I think in our voices, let's own it.
Speaker 2: Let's own it that it's sexy to sound your age,
Speaker 2: or it's sexy to sound like a mature woman.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I know that's not their natural sound, especially after giving
Speaker 2: birth twice. Your voice changes after birth, you know it should.
Speaker 2: It's a it's an experience, but also chemically, hormonally, your
Speaker 2: voice changes, and that's a privilege. Aging is a privilege.
Speaker 2: So own it.
Speaker 1: That was an excerpt from Lake Bell's Inner Voice, which
Speaker 1: is a delight. Go get your copy today at Inside Voice,
Speaker 1: audiobook dot Com, Audible, Spotify, and everywhere audiobooks are sold.