Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Stats Podcast.
Speaker 1: My guest today is the one and only Harold Bronson,
Speaker 1: one of the original Rhino Brothers, and he is the
Speaker 1: man who started the Rhino Records label. Harold, good to
Speaker 1: have you, happy to be here? Okay, So what do
Speaker 1: we know? You know, we're parking our cars, and I say, hey,
Speaker 1: do you come here to Hollywood often? And then you
Speaker 1: merely start going into rock history? So tell me what
Speaker 1: was going on here? Okay? Well, first of all, um,
Speaker 1: when I was a rock rider in the nineties seventies,
Speaker 1: I used to come here quite a bit because the
Speaker 1: record companies were here except for Warner Brothers in Burbank
Speaker 1: and Universal and Universal City. And then, uh, Rolling Stone
Speaker 1: was on Sunset Boulevard at the l A office. Where
Speaker 1: was Where were they on Sunset Boulevard? I think it's
Speaker 1: I think the cross street was Seward. Okay, outside of
Speaker 1: the street didn't looked like a building that Raymond Chandler,
Speaker 1: you know, might have been in. Well, how much of
Speaker 1: a presence did they have in Los Angeles? Rolling Stone? Um, well,
Speaker 1: initially very little. And then at this point, Um, Judy Sims,
Speaker 1: who had been a publicist at Warner Brothers Records. Then
Speaker 1: she became the l A editor and she's the one
Speaker 1: who found the space. But anyway, as we were walking in, UM,
Speaker 1: I remarked that, um, on this street, at sixteen oh
Speaker 1: a Cosmo Street, there used to be a club called
Speaker 1: beato Letos, which was really significant. Um. I think it
Speaker 1: was to sixty eight. But uh you heard a lot
Speaker 1: about it because I love played there a lot. But
Speaker 1: also the doors, um, the seeds, the iron butterfly. And
Speaker 1: according to Arthur Lee, if my memory is correct, that's
Speaker 1: where the Rolling Stones came in and saw them do
Speaker 1: a long song which is fired them too when they
Speaker 1: recorded Aftermath to do uh um coming home for the
Speaker 1: lengthy one. Wow. Now did you go there yourself? I
Speaker 1: was a little bit too young, A little bit too young.
Speaker 1: Now were you too young to go to Pandora's Box? Yes? Okay,
Speaker 1: So when did you start going to shows? Okay? So
Speaker 1: I grew up in Westchester, which is the community, the
Speaker 1: l A community by the Los Angeles International. And let's
Speaker 1: be clear, because I got in trouble once the you know,
Speaker 1: I said somebody, I went to a record I went
Speaker 1: to a ski shop in Westchester, they said they have them,
Speaker 1: and I was this person was from Los Angeles. We're
Speaker 1: not talking about Westchester County outside of New York. We're
Speaker 1: talking about a town a burg here in Los Angeles, right,
Speaker 1: Which is interesting is yeah, if I didn't clarify it,
Speaker 1: when I would say Westchester, most people would think New York, right, Okay,
Speaker 1: But anyway, it was a little bit too far out
Speaker 1: of the way to have easy access to Hollywood. So
Speaker 1: for instance, you mentioned Pandora's Box, it was probably like
Speaker 1: twelve miles away. That's, you know, pretty far if you're
Speaker 1: taking one or two busses. Um so um. I first
Speaker 1: started seeing notable rock and roll groups in ninety seven,
Speaker 1: but mostly in the early uh and and throughout most
Speaker 1: of the seventies. Now, these were on their way up
Speaker 1: in clubs. Who you're talking about going to shows and
Speaker 1: a Monica, you know, the Forum, etcetera. Yeah, all yeah,
Speaker 1: all that stuff. Yes, Okay, Now you started the Rhino
Speaker 1: Records label. What was the first release on the Rhino
Speaker 1: Records label? Okay? Um? Wild Man Fisher was a an
Speaker 1: outrageous street singer that Frank Zappa really loved what he
Speaker 1: was doing, and so Frank Zappa recorded a double album
Speaker 1: with him, Caught an Evening with wild Man Fisher, and
Speaker 1: actually didn't sell that well. Um I checked later on
Speaker 1: about twelve thousand copies, but there was a legendar. Everybody
Speaker 1: knew about it, right, everybody knew at it. And so
Speaker 1: what's the famous song on that? All of a sudden
Speaker 1: there you go round, which I could sing if you want,
Speaker 1: but so um. Anyway, Uh, he used to come into
Speaker 1: the store on occasion, and he felt like a rock
Speaker 1: star because not only do we know who they he
Speaker 1: he was, but I had his record, Richard Fouss had
Speaker 1: his record, just his record, Yeah, like we all had
Speaker 1: his record, so we felt like a star. And on
Speaker 1: more than one occasion he would come in when we
Speaker 1: opened and he stayed the whole day, which was not
Speaker 1: the most pleasurable experience, but anyway, as a way to
Speaker 1: show his appreciation, he made up the song A cappella
Speaker 1: called go to Rhino Records, and I called up Jeff
Speaker 1: Gold and I said, come on over with your cassette
Speaker 1: recorder and we recorded him doing two passes in the
Speaker 1: back room and we put that on an A side
Speaker 1: and then Richard and I a couple of other employees
Speaker 1: recorded a B side, and originally we pressed that up.
Speaker 1: What what was the B side? Rhino the Place to Go.
Speaker 1: It was talking about how we were so much better
Speaker 1: than all the other stores like Errand's and Moby Disk
Speaker 1: and places like that. And who wrote that? Richard and
Speaker 1: I wrote it? Okay? And was it acapella? Also? No, No,
Speaker 1: it was he played bass, I sang, Steve Rosen played guitar,
Speaker 1: and his brother Uh played drums. Steve Rosen was a
Speaker 1: writer who people would know. And he worked at a time.
Speaker 1: I hired him for a time at the store. Okay,
Speaker 1: And that was recorded also in the back room. No,
Speaker 1: that was it the Rosen family, Uh residence in Culver
Speaker 1: City in the garage okay. You know it's funny because
Speaker 1: people always hear about stuff being made in the garage
Speaker 1: in l a one thing they don't know it's warm.
Speaker 1: But converted garages, I mean like Jan of Verry, of
Speaker 1: Jan and Dean, A lot of people started in the garage. Literally,
Speaker 1: this wasn't converted garage. This was just a garage. And
Speaker 1: I brought in my tape recorder and Mike's and that's
Speaker 1: how he did it. But you had a tape recorder UM. Yeah.
Speaker 1: First of all, UM, I had my first tape recorder.
Speaker 1: I think I'm not sure if I was like fifteen
Speaker 1: or sixteen. And then I upgraded, but you know, the
Speaker 1: whole thing was, hey, you can take the songs off
Speaker 1: the radio, which which I did, but then that didn't
Speaker 1: necessarily mean that it stopped me from buying records or
Speaker 1: lots of records. And then UM, at a certain point,
Speaker 1: UM I upgraded to a UH A Sony tact multi track.
Speaker 1: I got a deal on it. I'm new, but I
Speaker 1: got a deal on it. But anyway, we're getting ahead
Speaker 1: of the story. So what happened was we just pressed
Speaker 1: up five hundred forty five just to give away to
Speaker 1: our UH customers as a present whether they thought it
Speaker 1: was there, and then somehow it filtered over to England
Speaker 1: and John Peel, a noted UH underground disc jockey who
Speaker 1: has then had a show on the BBC for many years,
Speaker 1: had a show in the BBC he's toted playing at
Speaker 1: and UM so our record came out in and then
Speaker 1: we started getting requests from England and other places, so
Speaker 1: we pressed up a thousand to sell. And what's interesting
Speaker 1: is UM at the end of nineteen seventy six. Again,
Speaker 1: this is in England. John Peel had a top fifty
Speaker 1: listener requests and most of it was typically Number one
Speaker 1: was Stairway to Heaven, No surprise there. Number go to
Speaker 1: Rhino Records by wild Man Fisher. Okay, now you've got
Speaker 1: a lot of ink in the calendar section. It was
Speaker 1: a tabloid in the l A Times. And you told
Speaker 1: me it happened organically that you weren't busy pitching them.
Speaker 1: Is that the same way it worked with wild Man Fischer?
Speaker 1: Did someone send it to John Peelard? He just find it.
Speaker 1: I have no idea how it got to him, No idea,
Speaker 1: no idea. Okay. Rhino Records was a store now. Originally
Speaker 1: Richard Fuss had sort of a record department in the
Speaker 1: store in Santa mob. When did Rhino Records the actual
Speaker 1: store start? Um? Yeah? So uh, Richard out grew Apollo Electronics.
Speaker 1: He had a little concession in part of the store.
Speaker 1: Um and it was October nineteen seventy three that he
Speaker 1: opened the one on West with Boulevard. I guess rent
Speaker 1: was a lot cheaper on West with Boulevard. Then well,
Speaker 1: then it went up and then it went back down.
Speaker 1: Again what happened was it was Ninon's Electronics, this guy
Speaker 1: who used to repair electronics back when that was still
Speaker 1: a thing. Right, He moved to the back room and
Speaker 1: he rented Richard you know the bulk of the space
Speaker 1: that I remember that I was wondering what was going
Speaker 1: on back there. Now I got the complete story. Okay.
Speaker 1: Now when he established Rhino Records, did you shop there? Well? I, um, okay,
Speaker 1: here's how it happened. Um. A famous record store in
Speaker 1: l a history, Lewin's Record Paradise on Hollywood Boulevard. Um,
Speaker 1: they had the English imports. Okay, just to stay for
Speaker 1: those people going back to this history. What was Wallax
Speaker 1: Music City in this whole hierarchy. Well, Wallax Music City
Speaker 1: was big. They were on the corner of Sunset in Vine.
Speaker 1: Um big records selection. Um, they only sold it list price,
Speaker 1: which meant that but they had listening booths and but
Speaker 1: they also had sheet music and they had uh instruments,
Speaker 1: you know, smaller part. But it was so let's say
Speaker 1: like if you were in the music business, you would
Speaker 1: shop at Walax Music City was right there. And in fact,
Speaker 1: Glenn Wallack was one of the original partners in Capitol
Speaker 1: Records right now. Obviously forty five didn't come shrink wrapped.
Speaker 1: But let's say you wanted to listen to an album
Speaker 1: and they let you listen to an album and the
Speaker 1: we're listening booth, we're not too unshrink it. But they
Speaker 1: would have playable copies. And did you ever do that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Not often because again you know, driving from Westchester, but
Speaker 1: I would say maybe at least two, maybe three times. Okay, So,
Speaker 1: but there was this other story you were talking about, Okay,
Speaker 1: Lewin's Reck Your Paradise. So, um it was local exactly
Speaker 1: where I'm not sure the exactly address meanybe like sixty
Speaker 1: SidD Hollywood Boulevard, um you know around um Um Highland.
Speaker 1: I saw um some roughly. Um So the idea with
Speaker 1: the English imports at the time, they were like extra
Speaker 1: songs because of a different way of calculating the publishing.
Speaker 1: And we'll just explain that to my audience how they
Speaker 1: calculated the publishing difference where they understand. Okay, so um
Speaker 1: uh in England the publishing of course was for the
Speaker 1: songwriting and the publishing, not the uh, the recording artist,
Speaker 1: and um so that was a flat rate per side,
Speaker 1: per album. So if you had five songs one side
Speaker 1: or eight songs on one side, it was the same.
Speaker 1: In America, it was always a sense rate per song,
Speaker 1: so if you had a thirty second song or a
Speaker 1: two minute and thirty second song, it was the same.
Speaker 1: So that's why our Beatle albums were totally different, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: In fact, a lot of those you'll see there were
Speaker 1: less tracks on the American albums. I think only later
Speaker 1: did people realize that the English pressings probably sounded better.
Speaker 1: So it was originally for the either songs that weren't
Speaker 1: that you couldn't get here because they were extracted from
Speaker 1: the albums, or else different lineups. But anyway, in um,
Speaker 1: this was early nineteen seventy two. At that point, um
Speaker 1: the albums were the same on both sides of the Atlantic.
Speaker 1: So Lewin's was um uh. To try to survive, they
Speaker 1: were selling bootlegs, and I was, you know, as any
Speaker 1: music fan is, you know you wanted the bootlegs, right,
Speaker 1: So I was, you're talking about bootleg live recordings or
Speaker 1: studio What kind of bootlegs did they have there? Well,
Speaker 1: it was mostly live recordings at that point, and then
Speaker 1: you know, a little bit later than they started doing
Speaker 1: out takes. But as I was thumbing through the bin,
Speaker 1: I can't remember if I said something to the southern customer,
Speaker 1: but because you know, I thought the prices were high,
Speaker 1: and he said, oh, there's this guy at you know,
Speaker 1: Paul Electronics in Santa Monica that you could you know,
Speaker 1: he's cheaper and you could also trade your records so
Speaker 1: you're not out of pocket. So that's where I met Richard.
Speaker 1: And then from going to the store, you know a
Speaker 1: number of times I really liked him. Um, he was
Speaker 1: low key, but there weren't not there weren't many customers,
Speaker 1: so you could talk with them. And as many records
Speaker 1: did he have? Since I never went there, how many
Speaker 1: records was his inventory? Generally? Um, um, hundreds if not thousands? No, No,
Speaker 1: And so anyway, so I knew him. And it's interesting
Speaker 1: is that when I left for England, um, for my
Speaker 1: second trip. So so again this was probably uh Lates
Speaker 1: timber ninety three. That's after you graduate from college. He
Speaker 1: graduated June juno. Yeah, so he Um, he didn't have
Speaker 1: a name for the store. But I thought because I
Speaker 1: liked him so much, I saved up my good promos
Speaker 1: and I brought him and I said, look, you know,
Speaker 1: I want you to start, and you have, like the
Speaker 1: bins look really good. So I mean he paid me
Speaker 1: for him, of course, but it was a type of
Speaker 1: thing that um uh, the suggestion I had for the
Speaker 1: store because I was this is not when he's opening
Speaker 1: the new store in Westwood. Yes, I said, because I
Speaker 1: was a big Kings fan. I said, like Waterloo Sunset Records.
Speaker 1: And then I left and then of course when I
Speaker 1: came back, the store was open and it was Rhino Records.
Speaker 1: Well it's funny. There is a Waterloo Records in Austin.
Speaker 1: I've been there. Yeah, the guy runs it, owns it,
Speaker 1: a great guy. But how do you know how it
Speaker 1: ended up becoming Rhino? Um, I know exactly. Um. Okay,
Speaker 1: they didn't have a name, so he and a few
Speaker 1: of his friends they were just throwing out, you know, names,
Speaker 1: and this one who was a budding DJ by the
Speaker 1: name of Jerry k he suggested Rhino. And I think
Speaker 1: just primarily because of the alliteration, you know. I just
Speaker 1: maybe later on we found meaning behind it, but at
Speaker 1: the time that's all it was. Okay, let's go back.
Speaker 1: So you're in Westchester, Uh, what does your father do
Speaker 1: for a living? Um? Okay um? So my father UM
Speaker 1: didn't see a need to go to college, and he
Speaker 1: took what he said in high school was a commercial course.
Speaker 1: And he was like he was born in America, born
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, and now his parents were they born
Speaker 1: in America? His parents Romania um so Um. He became
Speaker 1: like a bookkeeper and he was working in the Mojave
Speaker 1: Desert for the Torazzo company, which people know draws roso
Speaker 1: because of the floor with the you know, the and
Speaker 1: it was like so hot out there. He told me
Speaker 1: that in the morning for breakfast he would have like
Speaker 1: a steak in a malted milk and not eat the
Speaker 1: rest of the day because it was too hot. And
Speaker 1: again there probably wasn't air conditioning back and you know,
Speaker 1: at a certain point he had, you know, like this
Speaker 1: is it and he quit, not realizing that it was
Speaker 1: the early stages of the depression and getting another job
Speaker 1: was not going to be so easy. So your father
Speaker 1: was born in what year? Okay? So your father was
Speaker 1: relatively old? Yes, okay, so um anyway is uh um?
Speaker 1: I mean to make a long story not short. But
Speaker 1: his brother in law UM was in the hostel produce business.
Speaker 1: So just to be clear, he married your mother when
Speaker 1: he was working in open mohave no much later, but
Speaker 1: his brother in law for one of his siblings, exactly
Speaker 1: for sister, so he had two sisters. So anyway, um
Speaker 1: so uh so, and then that kind of went bankrupt
Speaker 1: and he stayed in the wholesale produce business, not because
Speaker 1: he liked it, but because he needed to, you know,
Speaker 1: have an income for his family. And then at a
Speaker 1: certain point, um, when I was in high school, when
Speaker 1: he got um eased out by the competition, he went
Speaker 1: to work for the post office. And originally he thought
Speaker 1: he'd be really great to be a mailman, but he
Speaker 1: worked in the weight room downstairs for fourteen years until
Speaker 1: his vision deteriorated. But he really liked you know, working,
Speaker 1: so um. Yeah, my my mom was just basically a homemaker. Okay,
Speaker 1: but this begs the question where did you get money
Speaker 1: to buy records? Well, initially I had very little, and
Speaker 1: it was I did chores around the house. And my
Speaker 1: first job, um was the summer after I graduated west
Speaker 1: Chester High and um it was working as a ostensibly
Speaker 1: a bus boy at the restaurant or coffee shop on
Speaker 1: the top of the Broadway department store in Westchester. Um,
Speaker 1: a dollar six, I was promised, oh yeah, plus tips,
Speaker 1: but I never signing tipps. Um. And also the other
Speaker 1: thing is, even though I was hired as a bus boy, Um,
Speaker 1: the dishwasher quit and they were very very rarely replacements.
Speaker 1: Sometimes there would be like a replacement from one or
Speaker 1: two days, usually with alcohol on their breath. So that
Speaker 1: means I was busting all the tables and washing the
Speaker 1: dishes totally on my own. Um. And but I did
Speaker 1: learn how to make an egg cream. Okay, but let's
Speaker 1: go back a little bit. Um, how did you first
Speaker 1: get turned onto let's call it rock and roll? Well, Um,
Speaker 1: I was aware of music here there, and bought a
Speaker 1: record infrequently because I didn't really have much money and
Speaker 1: wasn't a big fan until of course, the Beatles. So
Speaker 1: the Beatles chain did it all for me. Um, not
Speaker 1: only the music and how vibrant and exciting it was,
Speaker 1: but also in the UH press conferences, their sense of humor.
Speaker 1: You know, you have to really give that um uh
Speaker 1: a lot um because if you'd heard comments from like
Speaker 1: the four seasons of the Beach Boys, they were really
Speaker 1: dull and you know, or Elvis, you never had anything
Speaker 1: to say, and you know, the the Beatles were like comedians,
Speaker 1: so that kind of drew you in. And then of course, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, a year later, I mean I was already
Speaker 1: a big rock and roll fan, but A Hard Day's Night,
Speaker 1: UM was just uh then as well as now, such
Speaker 1: an amazing movie. And even though when you read about
Speaker 1: the Beatles much later and you heard about the unseeming
Speaker 1: elements about them, but still, you know, Hard Day's Night,
Speaker 1: for however fictionalized it is, I mean, that's you want
Speaker 1: them to be. That that's who you want, Okay, but
Speaker 1: you obviously you would rich and this is sort of
Speaker 1: the basis of the Rhino Empire. Had a wild sense
Speaker 1: of humor. Did your family have a wild sense of humor? No,
Speaker 1: my mom did have a sense of humor, but not
Speaker 1: in that way. UM. So you know it's interesting, UM,
Speaker 1: and you know you could identify with this from how
Speaker 1: we all grew up. And a lot of that influence
Speaker 1: was TV. So not only were there a lot of
Speaker 1: um comedic TV shows like I was a big fan
Speaker 1: of Sergeant Bilko and then subsequently Car fifty four, Where
Speaker 1: Are You? Um? But also um, because of TV being
Speaker 1: relatively new, you had a lot of older movies that
Speaker 1: were uh syndicated on TV, like the Marx Brothers for instance.
Speaker 1: So probably a lot of that irreverent humor came from
Speaker 1: the Marx Brothers. I mean, not solely them, but probably
Speaker 1: primarily then because they were so out there. Okay, now,
Speaker 1: before the Beatles and too a certain degree concurrent, there
Speaker 1: was a huge so cal sound. There was the surf sound,
Speaker 1: there were instrumentals, there were the beach Boys, Jan and Dean.
Speaker 1: Were you aware of all that? Yeah? But I didn't
Speaker 1: really listen to the radio. So obviously I knew about
Speaker 1: you know, Surf City and some of the surf songs
Speaker 1: and you know, uh, you know, uh four Seasons a
Speaker 1: little bit there, but I didn't really listen to the radio.
Speaker 1: Was more kind of in passing or maybe a sports
Speaker 1: night in junior high. The records got played, like you know,
Speaker 1: Louis Louis and things like that I would pick up on.
Speaker 1: But I and prior to the Beatles, I did not
Speaker 1: listen to the radio. Okay, And did you buy Meet
Speaker 1: the Beatles? Yes, of course, actually my parents did. But anyway,
Speaker 1: what what you mentioned before? So when I had the
Speaker 1: bus boy job. That's the first time that I actually
Speaker 1: made money, and then um, after that, in the fall,
Speaker 1: um a friend of mine worked at a small market
Speaker 1: in Westchester called Hillmart. So, uh, he got me a
Speaker 1: job at Hillmart. So I worked there for a number
Speaker 1: of months, and then the following summer fed Coe, which
Speaker 1: was a discount the best buy if it's era right,
Speaker 1: and I was during the summer, I was a socker.
Speaker 1: They called it a soacker. But after that I started
Speaker 1: to make enough money so that by the following year, Um,
Speaker 1: I didn't need to get a job. So I didn't
Speaker 1: make a lot of money writing, but I made enough
Speaker 1: so that I didn't have to. It would be like
Speaker 1: the equivalent if I had a summer job. Okay, so
Speaker 1: you go to college at u c. L A. And
Speaker 1: you famously have a band. Were you in bands before that? Well,
Speaker 1: we had a a band at Westchester High We didn't
Speaker 1: play anywhere. It was just kind of because of my
Speaker 1: tape recorder and be like, hey, let's what do we
Speaker 1: sound like? And you know, when you're not doing much,
Speaker 1: that's you know, you get together. What was your incentive
Speaker 1: for buying the tape recorder? Well, I told you before
Speaker 1: about getting the free music. Okay, so that was your
Speaker 1: main incentive to buy it, so you could tape off
Speaker 1: the radio right before, you know, before I got the
Speaker 1: four track, which was you know, oriented more towards that's
Speaker 1: why recording the band subsequent to high school. Okay. So
Speaker 1: but in high school you did have guys come over
Speaker 1: and you would sing into the uh, into the tape recorder. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we had, you know, people who played music and you know,
Speaker 1: that's what we did it. And yeah, I mean this
Speaker 1: was something you you would say you're in a band,
Speaker 1: or it happened, you know, every week, or it happened
Speaker 1: once a year, mostly during the summer. But it wasn't
Speaker 1: like anything to brag about, like hey baby, I'm in
Speaker 1: a band. It wasn't like that was there a name
Speaker 1: well okay, because of UH, I was intrigued by certain
Speaker 1: names like the Jefferson Air playing the Strawberry alarm clock.
Speaker 1: So I came up with Mogen David and his wine
Speaker 1: own and everybody agreed it. So that was an act,
Speaker 1: but that was still when you were in high school.
Speaker 1: You called it that. Yeah, okay. Then you go to
Speaker 1: you and you were always the singer. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I couldn't really play an instruments. So okay, you go
Speaker 1: to college u c l A first, because I thought
Speaker 1: about this is a amazing. When I went to college
Speaker 1: in Middlebury College in Vermont Saint Era, I was like
Speaker 1: the freak. And then I came to l A. There
Speaker 1: were a million people like me like it, were addicted
Speaker 1: to records and going out, etcetera. When you go to
Speaker 1: l u c l A, you're living at home. You're
Speaker 1: living in u c l A. The four years, three
Speaker 1: of the years I lived at home. One year, Um,
Speaker 1: we had an apartment with three of my friends. I'm
Speaker 1: Beverly Glen. So the question is did you immediately find
Speaker 1: your tribe when you went to u c l A. Okay, Um,
Speaker 1: first of all, what's interesting. I want to point out
Speaker 1: a couple of things. One is, in Oliver Stone's movie
Speaker 1: On the Doors, you see a concert and you see
Speaker 1: everybody has, you know, long hair, and um, that really
Speaker 1: wasn't the way it was back then. And even at
Speaker 1: u c l A. I'm not gonna say that nobody
Speaker 1: had long hair, but relatively few people did. And people
Speaker 1: dressed you know, pretty straight or if they were sloppy
Speaker 1: you'd say, like, you know, hippies. Um. But uh, the
Speaker 1: other thing is, um pretty aware as far as the
Speaker 1: concept of fraternities and fraternities seemed old hap to me,
Speaker 1: and the concept of you know, the hazing and all
Speaker 1: that stuff, it was it seemed like another era to me.
Speaker 1: So when I started to write for the u c
Speaker 1: l A Daily bruin and over a time it was
Speaker 1: almost like you know, my fellow writers and music fans.
Speaker 1: Because it was in the entertainment section, it almost was
Speaker 1: kind of lack of fraternity. We tended to like each other.
Speaker 1: We would go to the shows if somebody had, you know,
Speaker 1: a couple of tickets, Hey, you want to come with me? Um?
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was and also not only the camaraderie,
Speaker 1: but a lot of smart kids and people who dis
Speaker 1: distinguished themselves in varying levels. And also um, you know
Speaker 1: for me, you know, really learning how to write. Okay,
Speaker 1: but let's go back. When did you start the band
Speaker 1: up in college? Okay? So after high school? Um, you
Speaker 1: know it was kind of forgotten about. And then um,
Speaker 1: I didn't get the four track until after like after
Speaker 1: I graduated. So um, one of these So basically, how
Speaker 1: did you pay for the four truck UM well, because
Speaker 1: I was making moneys a right, I think he was
Speaker 1: maybe around a thousand bucks something like that. Okay, But anyway,
Speaker 1: so music writers, a lot of music writers played musical instruments, right, right,
Speaker 1: So that's how kind of like to uh reinvigorate the band.
Speaker 1: So this was UM December uh Jonathan Kellerman, who subsequently
Speaker 1: became a New York Times bestselling author on guitar Excellent
Speaker 1: guitar player, Jim Bickhart, who was my editor, who on bass,
Speaker 1: Tom Madie from high school on piano. Um. There was
Speaker 1: a friend of mine from high school who was in bands,
Speaker 1: who was a pretty good drummer, and he agreed to
Speaker 1: do it, and then on the morning of he said
Speaker 1: he wasn't going to do it, but I'll own you
Speaker 1: my drums. So I was like, so piste off I put.
Speaker 1: You know, we got everybody together. So I ended up
Speaker 1: playing drums um and I never really played before you
Speaker 1: although you know you'd practiced, so of course everybody did
Speaker 1: so considering that it actually turned out pretty well. So
Speaker 1: two songs Um nose Job, which was a cover of
Speaker 1: a Mad Magazine song, and then Tom and I wrote
Speaker 1: a B side so that was all recorded, the instrumentals
Speaker 1: on one Sunday, December, okay, but then the band continued. No,
Speaker 1: that was it, okay, But that what happens because the
Speaker 1: sinking function of the Selles sink function on my tape
Speaker 1: recorder messed up. It took many months later until the
Speaker 1: next school year of in the apartment on Beverly Glen
Speaker 1: with my neighbor who I wasn't familiar with before, George
Speaker 1: Carlin and his family. So I became friends with him
Speaker 1: and his wife. And anyway, he loaned me his tape
Speaker 1: recorder and in the um in the bathroom with the
Speaker 1: tile in our apartment, that's where I recorded the vocals.
Speaker 1: So I actually I pressed that myself. Um that was
Speaker 1: I think November nine seventy Um, yeah, yes, so but anyway,
Speaker 1: um and then so originally I did two records on
Speaker 1: my own, two and then I did an album which
Speaker 1: came out in July. Whoa, whoa, whoa. How does Richard
Speaker 1: get involved? No, he's this, He's not involved. So this
Speaker 1: was on Kosher Records, okay. And so basically a year
Speaker 1: or two later, when we decided to do The wild
Speaker 1: Man Fisher, I came to Richards said, I know how
Speaker 1: to do this, so my band and doing it on
Speaker 1: my own. This was really a few years before the
Speaker 1: late seventies. You know, do it yourself. Um yeah, so okay,
Speaker 1: let me be clear. You cut the record in December seventy.
Speaker 1: Was Paul Rappaport part of the Bean then? Um, no,
Speaker 1: he was. He came in a number of months later.
Speaker 1: What happened was he was a college rep for Columbia Records,
Speaker 1: and uh, he came into the at a certain point.
Speaker 1: He came into the u c l A Daily bruin
Speaker 1: and ingratiated himself and so I liked him. And anyway,
Speaker 1: he I think he'd heard um nose job on the
Speaker 1: u c l A station and he loved it. And
Speaker 1: he got from me. I can't remember, it was ten
Speaker 1: or twenty copies. Of course he gave me promos and
Speaker 1: exchange no money, but it was fine with me. Better okay.
Speaker 1: He ended up being a promotion right. So later that year,
Speaker 1: so again this was in um December nineteen one. Then
Speaker 1: with him on guitar, I put another put together another
Speaker 1: group and we recorded two more songs in an actual
Speaker 1: eight track you know, a little budget, but an a
Speaker 1: track recording studio, and UM that came out a few
Speaker 1: months later, so and and and then of course he
Speaker 1: was on the album and Uh in two we played
Speaker 1: a handful of dates and he was in that band. Okay,
Speaker 1: so let's just get the structure right. Summer seventy you
Speaker 1: cut these couple of tracks, but they don't come out
Speaker 1: until sevent seventy one, and Richard is helping you distribute them. Um. Okay, wait,
Speaker 1: let me make a correction. Correction, correction. The nose job
Speaker 1: was in December sixte Okay. And at this point, once
Speaker 1: the record is pressed, what do you do to sell it? Well? Um,
Speaker 1: Among the first couple of forty five, it was because
Speaker 1: I knew a number of writers. It was, you know,
Speaker 1: getting record reviews and they would list the you know address,
Speaker 1: send in you know whatever we charged for it. Um,
Speaker 1: that didn't really sell that much. Um, and what happened.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tie this up. So I put together, like, uh,
Speaker 1: kind of a best of of a lot of the
Speaker 1: tracks we had, UM, including the second single we did
Speaker 1: with Paul Rappaport and UM. I did an album and
Speaker 1: it was kind of like live at leads where I
Speaker 1: had inserts on it and the luxe packaging, and um,
Speaker 1: I don't know how many people got the joke, but
Speaker 1: there was an exploitation Beatles record in nineteen sixty four
Speaker 1: that had the Beatles backing Tony Sheridan and it was
Speaker 1: called Savage Young Beatles and it had a picture of
Speaker 1: them from Hamburg with the leather jackets. So I knocked
Speaker 1: that cover off, calling ours savage Young Winos and I
Speaker 1: borrowed uh leather jackets from Michael Oakes and we did
Speaker 1: like a cover that looked like, you know, pose like them.
Speaker 1: So what I wanted to say was so again going
Speaker 1: to London three there was a friend of Jeff Gold's,
Speaker 1: Larry de Bay, who was a um no, actually you
Speaker 1: know what. That was seventy six but it still ties
Speaker 1: in the So the Rons have gone to h made
Speaker 1: a big splash in London a few months earlier, and
Speaker 1: on the cover I'm guessing because we looked like the
Speaker 1: Ramones with leather jackets. Um. When I went to London
Speaker 1: that year, it was like with two boxes of Winos
Speaker 1: albums that he paid for when I gave him to him.
Speaker 1: And again I don't think it anything to do with
Speaker 1: the music. What it was just because we looked like
Speaker 1: the Ramones I was kind of okay, just to be
Speaker 1: clear the original singles and album where they district? Was
Speaker 1: Richard involved whatsoever? Um? No, that was way before him
Speaker 1: and um at a certain point. Yeah, I sold copies
Speaker 1: out of the Rhinos store. This was in Um. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's go back. When did you decide you wanted to
Speaker 1: be a writer? Okay, good question, because I wasn't thinking
Speaker 1: that in high school. Um. I'd read a review in
Speaker 1: the u. Cly Daily Bruin of the grassroots album Golden Grates,
Speaker 1: which I thought maligned the grassroots. Okay, and I and
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, I could do better than this.
Speaker 1: So I went to the u c A Daily Bruin.
Speaker 1: And I been there in college Okay, so, um, I
Speaker 1: started h September, So this was uh the spring quarter
Speaker 1: of sixty. Feeling you've already you know, know what's going
Speaker 1: on in college? Okay, you go in, Okay, they say
Speaker 1: you gotta come back when the music gets here. He's
Speaker 1: here Tuesday afternoon. You've got to speak to John Mendelssohn legend. Yes, Now,
Speaker 1: I'd read him in the Daily Bruin and brilliant writer
Speaker 1: brilliant like head and shoulders above anybody, and later, you know,
Speaker 1: when I would read them in Rolling Stone again head
Speaker 1: and shoulders above anybody and also excellent taste. First question
Speaker 1: he asked me when I told him when they're right,
Speaker 1: he goes, do you like the who? Now? I said yes,
Speaker 1: And I heard that people who said no didn't write
Speaker 1: that year. So that's that's an aspect about Mendelssohn that um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of positives about him, but you know,
Speaker 1: because of his psychological makeup, you know, there was also
Speaker 1: aspects about his behavior that alienated people, including uh, negatively
Speaker 1: affecting his um you know, career momentum. Shall we say
Speaker 1: we ultimately we had a band Christopher Milk. Yeah, Well
Speaker 1: what happened was at first I didn't make the connection,
Speaker 1: but um Um and Orientation, which was two nights during
Speaker 1: the summer of nine UM living in one of the
Speaker 1: residence halls. One night they had a dance, or I
Speaker 1: should say they had a band, and it was his band.
Speaker 1: And I really liked the band, not because I thought
Speaker 1: they were musically good, because they weren't, but because they
Speaker 1: played songs that nobody would play like. They played the
Speaker 1: Mighty quinn Um and they you know, they did who
Speaker 1: songs and they did I think little Richard maybe keep
Speaker 1: a knocking, But just the song selection was, you know,
Speaker 1: so different, and you know, really good songs. So I said, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, what's the name of your band? And one
Speaker 1: of them I thought I misheard. Instead of saying Christopher Milk,
Speaker 1: they said I thought Christian Milk. And then later on
Speaker 1: I kind of figured out, oh yeah, that was the
Speaker 1: guy in the band. Um. But anyway, initially he gave me,
Speaker 1: he said, pick any album you want to record, I
Speaker 1: mean recorking me review and um at Crane's music in Inglewood.
Speaker 1: I bought. I was a big Easy Beats fan, and
Speaker 1: the first album had Friday on my mind. Of course,
Speaker 1: the second album, I was unfamiliar with any of the songs,
Speaker 1: but I was such a I like the first album
Speaker 1: so much. I bought it and that's the one I reviewed,
Speaker 1: and he went through it, you know, with notations, and
Speaker 1: so I mean my first I think that was not
Speaker 1: for publication, but the first maybe a couple of things
Speaker 1: he had a hand in assigning or editing before he
Speaker 1: graduated and went on to greener pastures. Okay, so you're
Speaker 1: right for the Daily Bruin. Throughout your college career? Yes,
Speaker 1: how many times would your articles appear? Um? Maybe like
Speaker 1: a couple of times a month maybe? And then when
Speaker 1: you're a senior, who's the editor? Um? Okay? Well I
Speaker 1: mentioned it went from Mendelssohn to Bickheart. Um. When I
Speaker 1: was a senior, um Stan Berkowitz was a He was
Speaker 1: the editor of the entertainment section that I wrote for.
Speaker 1: But he was a film major. But he loved music.
Speaker 1: He would go to we would go to concerts together.
Speaker 1: You're a major, was what? Um? Okay. When I uh
Speaker 1: entered U c l A. And I'm not sure where
Speaker 1: I got this notation, but I thought i'd be a lawyer.
Speaker 1: He didn't have pre law. They recommended political science. UM.
Speaker 1: I was reading these textbooks, which I thought were really boring.
Speaker 1: At a certain point, I thought, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: feel like going to law school for three years. Um.
Speaker 1: And by the time I kind of realized what I thought.
Speaker 1: Two majors that i'd like, they weren't really viable. UM.
Speaker 1: U c l A had journalism classes but no journalism major.
Speaker 1: And film. I liked film um and um, but it
Speaker 1: was a little bit too late for me to I
Speaker 1: think apply because it was highly competitive. So at that point, Um,
Speaker 1: it was the early stages of you could make up
Speaker 1: your own major and if you got it approved, you
Speaker 1: could graduate under that. So, UM, I came up with
Speaker 1: this thing. I think they named it sociology and the media.
Speaker 1: So uh, film music sociology. Probably the best way to
Speaker 1: describe it is using an example like High Noon, which
Speaker 1: I think was nineteen fifty two. But okay, high Noon
Speaker 1: was this eighteen eighties western. Um, but it was an
Speaker 1: allegory for um standing up to communism and during the
Speaker 1: McCarthy era. So even though it was about you know,
Speaker 1: this Western, it dealt with these contemporary themes. Um a
Speaker 1: different film people know, uh Chinatown, Well that was a
Speaker 1: metaphor for Watergate. Okay, Uh, you're also become a rep
Speaker 1: for Columbia Records. How does that come together? Um. Paul
Speaker 1: Rappaport was and is a year older than me. So
Speaker 1: he was leaving. I said, hell, can I, you know,
Speaker 1: replace you? And uh he said yeah. So UM I
Speaker 1: felt really fortunate. Uh. Not only because of that, but
Speaker 1: I thought at this point, Um, I wanted to get
Speaker 1: a job in the music business because I had become
Speaker 1: a little bit familiar with some of the departments, like
Speaker 1: the publicity department some of the others, and you know,
Speaker 1: I love the music and um, and I thought this
Speaker 1: would be a good stepping stone, so I thought so. Um. Anyway, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was my senior year now at that time, mean,
Speaker 1: that was a huge program and million people ended up
Speaker 1: working in the industry. But what you tell me is
Speaker 1: they did not offer you a job, whereas they had
Speaker 1: offered a lot of other people's jobs. Well, I'm not
Speaker 1: really aware of a lot of other people. I mean
Speaker 1: I know, um, um the local people from southern California,
Speaker 1: like you know, um, the Long Beach person in the
Speaker 1: USC person and UM myself. Maybe there was one other. Um.
Speaker 1: By the way, I did a great job. I got
Speaker 1: um lots of ads on the u c l A
Speaker 1: radio station because they loved me, because I gave him promos,
Speaker 1: right even you know, things that like Birds of a
Speaker 1: Feather by par of Your and the Raiders and things
Speaker 1: that didn't become big hits. I put on help to
Speaker 1: put on some concerts. Um. I had a really good
Speaker 1: relationship with the four record stores in West Village, so
Speaker 1: and then also with my writing and at this point
Speaker 1: I had gotten a few articles in Rolling Stone, so
Speaker 1: I thought I was primed and either nobody at Columbia
Speaker 1: could foresee the potential that I subsequently had or at
Speaker 1: any of the other labels, and I was really kind
Speaker 1: of crushed. Well that's my question, were to what were
Speaker 1: you disheartened? Well, very much so. But part of it
Speaker 1: you have to understand is, um, you know, I was
Speaker 1: still basically a shy person. I'm not gonna say I
Speaker 1: wouldn't talk to anybody. But at the time, I think
Speaker 1: Paul described it as like, uh, you know, you didn't
Speaker 1: you know, you didn't hang out, you know, doing drugs
Speaker 1: in the bathroom, you know, like with like the other
Speaker 1: guys where they would like, you know, think that you
Speaker 1: were like on a level with them or part of
Speaker 1: their you know, areas team. So you know, I was
Speaker 1: just more focused on the music and valuing the music.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I wasn't really thinking about, um, you know,
Speaker 1: the politics or positioning yourself. I wasn't thinking that. Okay,
Speaker 1: so you graduate from college, you go to England, you
Speaker 1: get back, you get a job with a trade okay. Um.
Speaker 1: On my way back from England, Paul said to be
Speaker 1: a good idea to visit the people at Columbia or
Speaker 1: CBS in New York. So on the way I I
Speaker 1: my mom was visiting her relatives in New Jersey. So
Speaker 1: I did that and I went to and I met
Speaker 1: you know, the main person was in college there. He
Speaker 1: asked me a question and you didn't say there was
Speaker 1: any jobs available. He said, you know, would you be
Speaker 1: willing to move to New York? And I said no. Um,
Speaker 1: But anyway, the only thing that struck me, Um. I mean,
Speaker 1: he was okay, But the person who was really enthusiastics
Speaker 1: to see me was Sandy Perlman, who was the man
Speaker 1: inger and producer of Blue Oyster Cal Did he also
Speaker 1: write the lyrics along with one other person? I mean
Speaker 1: I don't think he did. I think, well maybe with Meltzer,
Speaker 1: because Meltzer they were, you know, classmates in college together,
Speaker 1: Richard Meltzer. So anyway, but it was kind of like odd, like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: here's Sandy Permon who I barely know, and yet he's
Speaker 1: given me this warm welcome and you know this other
Speaker 1: guy didn't. But nonetheless, um, I remember after that, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, the Los Angeles Times classified and thinking about
Speaker 1: jo I want to be a night manager at Jack
Speaker 1: in the Box, Like like what else could I do?
Speaker 1: You know, reading the ads and you know what, I'd
Speaker 1: really be unhappy doing that. And then at a certain
Speaker 1: point my dad suggested taking the Selective Service UM UM
Speaker 1: test and the Civil Service. Sorry, how did you get
Speaker 1: out of the draft? Um? Well, first of all, there
Speaker 1: was the student deferment and then I didn't have a
Speaker 1: hind number, but it was high enough, so you know,
Speaker 1: if they I don't know if they went up to
Speaker 1: like one oh nine, maybe mine was one four or something. Okay,
Speaker 1: so you're you're not gonna be a night manager, So
Speaker 1: what gig do you get? Now? I was just I
Speaker 1: was living at home and um, you know, writing and
Speaker 1: you know, going to the record companies being hopeful. And
Speaker 1: then after taking the Civil Service exam UM, I was
Speaker 1: offered a placement UM it was called um a four
Speaker 1: month placement to be a passport agent because UM this
Speaker 1: was for the handling the influx of summer travelers. So
Speaker 1: it's like it started in April, early April, and it
Speaker 1: was for four months. So it was a hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty dollars a week. The office was in Lawndale and
Speaker 1: I was a passport agent. Four times I was UM
Speaker 1: looking in a judy cating as they called it. UM
Speaker 1: applications that were sent from post offices Saturday. Um was
Speaker 1: my day for being out with the public. Okay, So
Speaker 1: how does that end? And how do you end up
Speaker 1: working for cash box? I believe it was alright? So
Speaker 1: um again that ended? Um, August seventy three, I had
Speaker 1: passport money. Let's go to England. So wait, you had
Speaker 1: that four month There was not a continuous job with
Speaker 1: the civil four month places. By the way, I have
Speaker 1: to say it's I didn't get any letter that said, oh,
Speaker 1: by the way, would you be interested in I never
Speaker 1: got I mean I didn't pursue it because I wasn't
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't. I didn't like wearing a student
Speaker 1: tie every day, but none but none didn't an office.
Speaker 1: So you go to England? Um? Yeah, and I did,
Speaker 1: you know, for fun, but you know, record companies did
Speaker 1: some interviews um, and then UM coming back still looking around,
Speaker 1: looking around. But I've been after Richard after he opened
Speaker 1: the store. He had one full time employee, and you know,
Speaker 1: but he wasn't doing that much business. UM. And in fact,
Speaker 1: Richard said, I think within the first few months. There
Speaker 1: was one day when he was working that not one
Speaker 1: customer came in. UM. And then a certain point this
Speaker 1: employee UM left and he hired me. And this was
Speaker 1: probably UM April seventy four. And then uh UM a
Speaker 1: short time after UH, Toby Mamith said, oh yeah, cash
Speaker 1: Box magazine is looking for a writer. So he recommended
Speaker 1: me to cash Box and I interviewed and I got
Speaker 1: that job. And UM, I thought I was doing a
Speaker 1: great job. I thought, you know, like I rolled up
Speaker 1: my sleeves, I could really upgrade, you know, the caliber
Speaker 1: of writing in this And after the end of two weeks,
Speaker 1: on the same day that Nixon was fired, I was
Speaker 1: fired and I was shocked. I wasn't expecting it. I
Speaker 1: thought I was doing a good job. They didn't tell
Speaker 1: me why, but I think I surmise what happened, which
Speaker 1: was you wrote a negative review, right UM. No. Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, um UH, the managing uh editor said
Speaker 1: something to me that never would have crossed my mind. Again,
Speaker 1: I'm you know, music writing, you know, he said, the
Speaker 1: most important thing in the magazine is the advertisements, or
Speaker 1: anything between the advertisements is secondary. Nobody explained it to me,
Speaker 1: never would have thought about it. Um. I got a
Speaker 1: call from Um, one of the local guys at Ireland,
Speaker 1: who wanted up bringing Jim Capaldi by Jim Capoldi's second
Speaker 1: album and just come out. He wanted him to be
Speaker 1: interviewed for this one column was just backed up by
Speaker 1: five weeks and a couple of days ago. I just
Speaker 1: interviewed Rick Wright from Pink Floyd. So why do I
Speaker 1: want to you know, I just thought, you know, this
Speaker 1: is really backed up. So I said, look, really backed up.
Speaker 1: Maybe I could review the album. Wanted to send it
Speaker 1: over and I think that that's what caused me to
Speaker 1: be fired because they were going to buy an ad
Speaker 1: or something. Well, because you know, I didn't have the
Speaker 1: guy come buy and interview him. Okay, So when you
Speaker 1: got the job at cash Box, where you're still working
Speaker 1: at Rhino or you moved up No, no, I was
Speaker 1: working at Rhino. Fortunately I was able to get my
Speaker 1: job back, and at that point, again rolling up my sleeves,
Speaker 1: I thought, so okay. So when I had interviewed Peter
Speaker 1: asher Um and this was in the summer of one,
Speaker 1: he was one of the things we talked about was
Speaker 1: when he was at Apple records, and he said, you know,
Speaker 1: you could be fired for no reason at all in
Speaker 1: this business. And then you know, it happened to him,
Speaker 1: and then it happened to me, and I felt, look,
Speaker 1: I've got I had my own apartment. You know, I
Speaker 1: have bills. You know I I need a steady job.
Speaker 1: So I, um, you know, focused much more on uh
Speaker 1: Ryano and I worked my I became manager. And the
Speaker 1: initial steps where Richard wasn't into paying bills, so he
Speaker 1: was just throw them on top of the cash register.
Speaker 1: And I said, Richard, you know, do you mind if
Speaker 1: I pay these bills? Sure? So I would see like
Speaker 1: he had delinquent charges. So I said, look, let me
Speaker 1: pay the bills. At least I could save you money.
Speaker 1: So that was kind of the first step. Uh. And
Speaker 1: then I got you know, more involved. Okay, so how
Speaker 1: did traffic ultimately spike? He said he worked there and
Speaker 1: there was nobody there one day. Oh okay, Um, what
Speaker 1: gradually built? And I I was able to get at
Speaker 1: least some of my friends to trade their records in.
Speaker 1: But you know, when you live in Hollywood, you know,
Speaker 1: Westwood's kind of inconvenience. You'd rather be errands and you
Speaker 1: know on you know Melrose near Fairfax, right, but you
Speaker 1: know some people did come. So I I tried to
Speaker 1: help him, and um, you know, I tried to do
Speaker 1: different things, and Richard was into doing uh promotions and things. Um.
Speaker 1: But anyway, one thing that seemed significant, um, because we
Speaker 1: accepted used records. Richard had a deal where he could
Speaker 1: return a certain amount of used records as defective getting
Speaker 1: credit for new records. Now, these were not records that
Speaker 1: were trashed. These were records that you know looked, you know,
Speaker 1: like they were new. But just so therefore, if you okay,
Speaker 1: um to clarify, if you were a big chain like
Speaker 1: Tower Records or the Warehouse or Sam Goodies, you brought
Speaker 1: records for less money than if you were you know,
Speaker 1: one or two stores and you bought from what was called,
Speaker 1: um like a wholesaler so um. In this case, Richard
Speaker 1: was advertised again this is maybe like in the u
Speaker 1: c L. A Doom Bruin or something. It's like one
Speaker 1: store for uh certain records like an Elton John or
Speaker 1: whatever below list price. And the guy who owned the
Speaker 1: warehouse chain was like, really, instanse, how could he be
Speaker 1: getting these for less than me? So he uh initiated
Speaker 1: um a lawsuit. So I was able to get my
Speaker 1: friends in the local press like um, um the l
Speaker 1: a free press to do like you know David versus
Speaker 1: Goliath thing, how dare they? And I think, um that
Speaker 1: was you know, getting that press really helped to um,
Speaker 1: you know, collect more business for the store. Well, I
Speaker 1: remember it, all these special days, etcetera. Once it heat
Speaker 1: it up, so you do the wild Man Fisher record.
Speaker 1: What's the next record? Um? Richard and I were really
Speaker 1: into novelty records. I mentioned before nose Job, and I
Speaker 1: think you remember this, you know, growing up listening to
Speaker 1: Top forty in the fifties and sixties, there would usually
Speaker 1: always be like one novelty record, whether it be Purple
Speaker 1: People Eater or which doctor Um and uh take away
Speaker 1: Alan Sherman, Hello Mota, Hello Fada. And it was really fun,
Speaker 1: uh you know to hear these records. And unfortunately, you know,
Speaker 1: subsequent generation just kind of you know, never had that experience.
Speaker 1: And in fact, the first album that I bought was
Speaker 1: Alan Sherman's album My Son the Folksing first album. So um,
Speaker 1: so in our first year we did novelty records, which
Speaker 1: are cheap to record, because we were the artists. We
Speaker 1: just made up the artist. We did a little bit,
Speaker 1: just a little bit of reissuing old stuff but a
Speaker 1: little bit slower. Okay, So you put out the wild
Speaker 1: Man Fisher record, Yes, then you say this was fun
Speaker 1: or you're thinking we're gonna make some money or well, okay,
Speaker 1: all right, and then we gotta think one distributor from okay,
Speaker 1: well my only clarify. So in January eight we put
Speaker 1: out our first album, which was wild Man Fisher. So
Speaker 1: I recorded him on my four track recorder. I think
Speaker 1: the the total recording expenses like five. I think we
Speaker 1: gave wild Man five hundred, and Richard got a supplier,
Speaker 1: and you know, maybe we'd sold like two thousand hundred
Speaker 1: because of you know, the wild because the Frank's Apple connection.
Speaker 1: And that was enough. So then we did two out.
Speaker 1: We had enough to do too. By the way, we
Speaker 1: were operating from the back room of the record store,
Speaker 1: so there were no expenses, no overhead expenses. So then
Speaker 1: we did too um subsequent records. One was a compilation
Speaker 1: album of some things we've done on singles, but just yes,
Speaker 1: how many and how long did you do singles before
Speaker 1: you put on an album. All right, Um, about three
Speaker 1: years of singles? Three years? Were how many would they sell? Um? Well,
Speaker 1: other than um, you know the wild Man go to
Speaker 1: Rhino Records, which we talked about, Um, not very much.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know whether they you a hundred
Speaker 1: or two hundred were lost in the distribution system, you know,
Speaker 1: just not that, but not not. We're like they were
Speaker 1: so successful, so they were hundreds, they were sold. So
Speaker 1: this was not going to be did you dream? Were
Speaker 1: You're just having far to your dream? If well, we'll
Speaker 1: get this right, will make money. Well, at this point,
Speaker 1: I think it was more like a hobby. Um, when
Speaker 1: we started putting out albums, it was more of a
Speaker 1: you know, more of an expense. Okay. So when you
Speaker 1: put out the Wildman album three years after singles, which
Speaker 1: was three years after the original one, you said you
Speaker 1: found a distributor. Now, obviously stores had to buy albums,
Speaker 1: But if you were in New York or Chicago, was
Speaker 1: that record in the bins? Probably some? Okay, Well, I
Speaker 1: can tell you where things ramped up a bit in
Speaker 1: that first year. Um, the Temple City Kazoo Orchestra. Okay,
Speaker 1: That's what I want to know, is that the second
Speaker 1: Rhino album, No, but it comes pretty close. Well, then
Speaker 1: what is that one can't Oh? Two is Rhino Royale,
Speaker 1: which was I own that record compilation album of mostly
Speaker 1: singles but slightly recorded novelty stuff and the Temple City
Speaker 1: because orchestras on that. Could you buy RNYO Royale with
Speaker 1: red vinyl? There was a certain point there was multicolored,
Speaker 1: different colored vinyl. Yes, okay, so now you're gonna make
Speaker 1: your first album. Temple City Orchestra had one cut from
Speaker 1: their Temple City because Orchestra started getting some action, no no, no,
Speaker 1: no back from the beating. I'd you come up with
Speaker 1: the idea? Okay? That was Richard's idea to lampoon rock
Speaker 1: and roll by doing it with kazoos, because he felt
Speaker 1: that this was his idea. He felt that um Um
Speaker 1: rock and roll was taking itself too seriously when you
Speaker 1: think about um Um, Jerry Lee Lewis and little Richard
Speaker 1: and like almost like cartoon characters. I mean, there was
Speaker 1: a lot of fun in spirit of rock and roll
Speaker 1: in the fifties and sixties, which kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: it dissipated, you know, in the you know, and well
Speaker 1: into the seventies. So Um. The idea wasn't just too
Speaker 1: um oh, it's funny kazoo's playing a rock and roll songs.
Speaker 1: It was also to make you know, social commentary. And
Speaker 1: he thought that of all the serious acts, led Zeppelin
Speaker 1: treated themselves more seriously than anybody else. So let's do
Speaker 1: a whole lot of love. So um yeah. So that
Speaker 1: and that started to get play. So where did you
Speaker 1: record it? That was in a garage, not you know,
Speaker 1: just in somebody. So then how many people played kazoo
Speaker 1: on that? You know? It's mostly Richard and myself. He
Speaker 1: did the the Robert Plant part and Jimmy Page part
Speaker 1: and a couple of other people, um doing uh you know,
Speaker 1: the rhythm, but with the cute thing is as we
Speaker 1: know that, Um, with the panning in the studio on
Speaker 1: Jimmy Page's guitar, the slid cargoes a whole lot of love. Yeah. Anyway,
Speaker 1: so I did that on the kazoo, and I was
Speaker 1: really proud that I panned the kazoo, like you know,
Speaker 1: Jimmy Page's guitar. So how long did it take you
Speaker 1: to cut that album? Well, that was one track and
Speaker 1: then because of the play we were getting no, no,
Speaker 1: not even a single just down the Rhino Royale, k
Speaker 1: Rock played it, some other things played it, and because
Speaker 1: the attention, then we did three more songs. We made
Speaker 1: an e P Temple City Kazoo Band EP, and we
Speaker 1: was a Temple City. Well, I came up with the name.
Speaker 1: I just you know, it's it's a Temple City is
Speaker 1: a community near Pasadena. I've never been there, but it just,
Speaker 1: you know, you come up with the name. It like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's kind of an interesting name, the Temple City, because
Speaker 1: it sounded like it was legitimate. So he cut three
Speaker 1: more tracks. Yeah, and it started to get play, um,
Speaker 1: and it was this underground thing and what people kind
Speaker 1: of you know, might not remember, but there was a
Speaker 1: time in the you know, ramping up for Christmas, October, November,
Speaker 1: Fleetwood Mac, Let's Link, Fleetwood Mac and some of the
Speaker 1: big albums when like for instance, with that, well all
Speaker 1: the Warrener Brothers presses you know were occupied, you know,
Speaker 1: they were taking space on the independent presses. When our
Speaker 1: record was the hottest with the airplane everything, I think
Speaker 1: there were um, six weeks we couldn't get a record pressed.
Speaker 1: We had no records and in fact, Paul Rappaport at
Speaker 1: the time. I met with him and he said, I
Speaker 1: think we sold a bit more, but probably we were
Speaker 1: around ten thousand. He said, look, you know, if you
Speaker 1: could have gotten record pressed, you probably would have been
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand. And you use Rainbow Records at the time. Um,
Speaker 1: we use Rainbow. Probably we were using Rainbow at that
Speaker 1: time time. Yeah, initially when we were just singles. Initially
Speaker 1: it was Monarch who did Atlantic. Now I need to
Speaker 1: mention one of the things because of one of your guests,
Speaker 1: Lawrence juber Um. Again this was he told us years
Speaker 1: later that, um, Paul McCartney was like searching all over
Speaker 1: London trying to come, you know, buy the Temple City
Speaker 1: because the orchestra. That's kind of funny. That makes it okay,
Speaker 1: So how does it get airplane? You're working in it
Speaker 1: or is it all just you know, by luck? You
Speaker 1: know it was by luck, but you know, and so
Speaker 1: I would like send it out to college stations. There
Speaker 1: are a few of the alternatives. I didn't know what
Speaker 1: I was doing, but you know, you'd get it was
Speaker 1: just let's basically so again back room of the record store,
Speaker 1: and there ultimately was an album in addition to the
Speaker 1: EP Right, Um, no, only the now when you're putting
Speaker 1: out these records, you're working in the store. Richard owns
Speaker 1: the store. Was Richard making any money owning the record store? Um?
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I mean, um, I don't really know. Um.
Speaker 1: I mean I would make the bank deposits and stuff
Speaker 1: that I never knew the the P and L and
Speaker 1: how that might have worked. But um but at the
Speaker 1: end of um, um, so, our sales were nine thousand
Speaker 1: of for the for the the Rhino Records product. Now
Speaker 1: that's not profit, that's sale. Of course, was there any profit? Um,
Speaker 1: well yeah, but we just put it back into it.
Speaker 1: But anyway, the point I want to make is so
Speaker 1: because this is more fun than doing retail, which Richard
Speaker 1: was tired of. At the end of he sold the store.
Speaker 1: Oh right, I forgot completely about it. And then when
Speaker 1: the two of us went as partners in a different location,
Speaker 1: right right, Okay, but he sold the store seventy eight
Speaker 1: you'd already moved to Santa Monica Boulevard and back before
Speaker 1: he sold it, right, Um, yes, Because what happened was
Speaker 1: the woman who owned the original location, she got talked
Speaker 1: into Oh you know, let's knock it down, let's put
Speaker 1: a new building and get a lot more for rent.
Speaker 1: So we were in a you know, temporary space for
Speaker 1: a year and a half and then we moved back. Okay.
Speaker 1: So when he sold it and didn't he buy it
Speaker 1: back ultimately, well, he and I brought back into it. Um,
Speaker 1: But that was you know, much later, and was the
Speaker 1: motivation to buy back into it. Well, you know, we
Speaker 1: were already in our deal um with Atlantic Records at
Speaker 1: that point, and I think you wanted to get back
Speaker 1: to his roots. Okay. So now the year that you
Speaker 1: go and he sells the store is seventy eight. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but the last the end of seventy eight, seventy eight.
Speaker 1: Where's your first office? Um, it's on pico Um just
Speaker 1: east of Barrington, Okay, and it's just the two of you.
Speaker 1: I'm okay. Uh. He also had a small wholesale business
Speaker 1: doing cutouts. So it's just the two of us and
Speaker 1: one guy who was there before for the host of business.
Speaker 1: Who was who shipped? One guy who shipped? Okay, wait
Speaker 1: a second, this was not the warehouse, no, okay, I'm
Speaker 1: trying to remember the warehouse where Bob whatever had had
Speaker 1: also had his office shared space. Um yes, um yes,
Speaker 1: Bob Marin Okay, was that but this that was not
Speaker 1: the first. That was the second, right you probably well
Speaker 1: let me take your second. Um. I think we were
Speaker 1: in the Pico I think maybe two three, and then
Speaker 1: we moved to um Olympic right next to the d
Speaker 1: m V. Okay, no, no, that was that was much.
Speaker 1: That was that was later in terms of cash to
Speaker 1: run it. And were you taking a salary? Um? Yes,
Speaker 1: um once we moved to Pico, well, I mean I
Speaker 1: was taking a salary as a store manager, and once
Speaker 1: we moved to Pico, um, I was taking salary, but
Speaker 1: initially came out of the wholesale side. So the wholesale
Speaker 1: side was keeping it afloat. But I really wasn't doing
Speaker 1: anything or very much on the wholesale side. It was
Speaker 1: more yeah, but it was bringing in revenue, right, so
Speaker 1: I was so until the record label could pay me.
Speaker 1: Initially it was so then you're you're gonna make a
Speaker 1: go of it. What do you do next? Well? Um okay?
Speaker 1: So um the first air three areas we love the
Speaker 1: novelty um. I had licensed some unreleased Turtles tracks for
Speaker 1: Turtles Picture Disc, so that kind of got our feet wet.
Speaker 1: They had already finished their lawsuit with White Whale and
Speaker 1: they owned them at that point. Yes, UM, and so
Speaker 1: we started and then UM and then new artists. So
Speaker 1: those were the purview. And what happened was we love
Speaker 1: UM promoting the better new artists. And we can talk
Speaker 1: about the New Cats and Freddie Moore later, but UM,
Speaker 1: the problem. I was really disappointed that like local radio
Speaker 1: wouldn't support him, K Rock wouldn't play it. You don't
Speaker 1: get the airplay. You know, other than a certain number
Speaker 1: of fans, you're not gonna sell records. And was very
Speaker 1: disheartening to know that we couldn't really help these new
Speaker 1: artists that much. Again, same thing with the airplay, with
Speaker 1: the novelty stuff that k Rocket tightened up, and um,
Speaker 1: they were no longer playing like the Temple City Case Orchestra,
Speaker 1: that type of thing. And UM, so we hit upon
Speaker 1: reissues and slowly if we figured out, okay, that's what's
Speaker 1: gonna do it now. At the same time, by the way,
Speaker 1: I should mention that, UM, a lot of this is
Speaker 1: in the Rhino Record Story, which is a book that
Speaker 1: came out a few years ago. You're available, Yes, that
Speaker 1: I wrote so Um, okay, you could identify with this.
Speaker 1: Some of the characteristics of rock and roll was rebellious, nous,
Speaker 1: anti establishment behavior, and that infused us not only in
Speaker 1: the pre Rhino days, but as we did things in Rhino.
Speaker 1: So a lot of things were done for kind of
Speaker 1: mis gievous or subversive reasons. So um, Keith Richards, Ronnie
Speaker 1: Wood after Rolling Stones tour, they're on tour as the
Speaker 1: New Barbarians. Hey, they don't have a record out. Okay,
Speaker 1: there was a Uh. I wouldn't say that they were
Speaker 1: really a punk band, but there was a band that
Speaker 1: Doug Morris produced called the Barbarians who were in the
Speaker 1: Tammy Show, like the only unknown group in the Tammy Show.
Speaker 1: And there's a cut on the original Nuggets album which
Speaker 1: came out in two I said, hey, let's license uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the Barbarians. Maybe some people will get confused
Speaker 1: and by our record, which didn't really happen. But so
Speaker 1: that was Lorie Records, which um Dian and the Belmonts
Speaker 1: during the Pacemakers anyway, license it from them, but the
Speaker 1: package is not a serious package because I don't really
Speaker 1: think the Barbarians were very good. So what can we do?
Speaker 1: So I made up these uh um, overly glowing liner
Speaker 1: notes that I wrote, and I called up my pal
Speaker 1: Peter and Noon and I said, okay, if a person
Speaker 1: from Luxembourg, you know, what would their name be? And
Speaker 1: he gave me like a name and I put like
Speaker 1: from a luck the Barbarians fan club from Luxembourg. So
Speaker 1: I mean what I'm saying is, you know, if you
Speaker 1: kind of like read between the lines, even though it
Speaker 1: was you know, the original recordings, you could kind of
Speaker 1: see that we were, you know, having fun with this.
Speaker 1: So sometimes we would do stuff like that. Not always
Speaker 1: did people get the joke. Okay, did that album sell? Um?
Speaker 1: It made money? I can't remember what it sold, Okay,
Speaker 1: so maybe it did, like four or five thousand. Okay,
Speaker 1: how much would it calls you to license something like
Speaker 1: that back then? Well, um, okay, let me give you uh,
Speaker 1: let me give you this. UM. The first couple albums
Speaker 1: that we licensed from Warner Special Products, who did the
Speaker 1: licensing for Warner Elector Atlantic um Our first Best of
Speaker 1: Alan Sherman, First Rock and Roll Best of, Best of
Speaker 1: Love of the Way. They would calculate it is um
Speaker 1: based on sales of five thousand. Well, you know, they
Speaker 1: made an advance based on that, so it's probably me
Speaker 1: a little bit under three thousand dollars. And then of
Speaker 1: course we paid royalties on subsequent sales. So okay, you're
Speaker 1: doing a best of Alan Sherman. The first payment would
Speaker 1: be three thousand dollars to us. Okay. As the business
Speaker 1: went on, before you made your deal with Capital for distribution,
Speaker 1: did those costs go up um on rare occasion, yes,
Speaker 1: mostly no, it would be mostly based on five thousand
Speaker 1: um so like you did. I remember one of your albums.
Speaker 1: I bought Best of the Love and Spoonful that was
Speaker 1: calculated like on five thousand records. That probably was Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you one uh uh one exception. So
Speaker 1: when um, Howard Kyle and Mark Voman got the rights
Speaker 1: back on the Turtle Can. By the way, um Um,
Speaker 1: they were from Westchester. They're three years older than me,
Speaker 1: so I didn't really know them, but I was friendly
Speaker 1: with um um some of the younger brothers in the Turtles,
Speaker 1: Um and um. At a certain point I saw the
Speaker 1: mothers of invention with uh Klin and Vollman. You said,
Speaker 1: he are you kidding? Yes, uh Billy the Mountain. This
Speaker 1: was Polly Pavilion that, you know, because that was a
Speaker 1: live version. Was that recorded there? Just another band from
Speaker 1: l Yes, so I love the show. I thought they
Speaker 1: were great. And then I thought, oh, you know what,
Speaker 1: let me call Frank's Apple's manager management office, Herb Cohen,
Speaker 1: and I left a message for Howard Klin because I
Speaker 1: thought it'd be you know, interesting, you know, to write
Speaker 1: an article to transition from going from the Turtles to
Speaker 1: the Mothers, from a m pop clean to you know,
Speaker 1: talking about you know, mud sharks and you know groupies.
Speaker 1: Um so yeah, I interviewed, uh Howard and great interview. Um.
Speaker 1: I wrote it up for Rolling Stone and um Jan
Speaker 1: Winner loved it, he wrote on my page stub he wrote,
Speaker 1: like great story. Um. Later on I found out that
Speaker 1: he'd actually had been a Turtles fan younger. So anyways,
Speaker 1: so what I'm saying is there was some familiarity with me.
Speaker 1: I would go see there, you know, flowing Eddie the knack.
Speaker 1: Occasionally I would you know, write up an article in there.
Speaker 1: So there was familiarity with me. They liked me, and
Speaker 1: you know, I was, you know, loosely in a broad spectrum,
Speaker 1: you know, part of their uh they're uh a Saturn ring. So, um,
Speaker 1: they liked the picture this, they like how that turned out. Um,
Speaker 1: we paid him on subsequent so then we uh licensed
Speaker 1: um the first album you Ain't Me, Ain't Me Babe,
Speaker 1: and they owned it when that did well, and that
Speaker 1: was so then they said, hey, how would you like
Speaker 1: to license our best of? So they had done a
Speaker 1: double album that they had licensed to Sire Records, and
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was a three year deal
Speaker 1: or a five year deal, but that was kind of
Speaker 1: come to fruition. So, um, I remember this because it
Speaker 1: was a lot of money for us. We made a
Speaker 1: deal for Turtle's greatest hits and their original albums and
Speaker 1: it was for fifteen thousand dollars where she was outrageous,
Speaker 1: and I remember Mark Vohman like comforting me, comforting me
Speaker 1: and saying, you know what, you know, you're gonna come out.
Speaker 1: You're gonna come out really good on this. Okay. No,
Speaker 1: you know, because I remember when all this went out,
Speaker 1: they didn't have any offers from majors. Why did they
Speaker 1: go with you A I didn't know whether they did
Speaker 1: or whether they didn't, but I paid them. You know,
Speaker 1: it wasn't just the advance it was regular royalties, and
Speaker 1: you know they liked so okay. So with Rhino, for
Speaker 1: Richard and myself, it was like growing up with this music.
Speaker 1: This is important to us. So when we reissued it,
Speaker 1: it was let's put quality into it. Let's make it
Speaker 1: sound better than it ever has been sounded. If it's possible,
Speaker 1: let's track down rare photos, let's get um really good
Speaker 1: liner notes. So I think they also appreciated that that
Speaker 1: this was like quality stuff. Okay, but those were successful, correct, Um, yes,
Speaker 1: what's well? First of all, um, the first album, that
Speaker 1: Ain't Me Babe album actually did much better that I
Speaker 1: would have thought. It's so much better than the others.
Speaker 1: I think maybe it like did around ten thousand, which
Speaker 1: is pretty good for for us, and then the others,
Speaker 1: in varying degrees were um less than five thousand. But
Speaker 1: the you know, greatest hits did great okay. So the
Speaker 1: Turtles really put you on the map in terms of
Speaker 1: the country at large. So what was the step after
Speaker 1: the Turtles? Okay? Well, uh, Strategically, in our first two
Speaker 1: years seventy seventy nine, we put out about nine albums
Speaker 1: each and the first year nine albums or E N
Speaker 1: or EPs each year, and the first year we probably
Speaker 1: made money on the ninety thousand, and the second year
Speaker 1: on the hundred and twenty seven thousand dollars, we lost
Speaker 1: money because we put more money into our product. And
Speaker 1: then it occurred to me, I thought, okay, we need
Speaker 1: to put out more albums, thinking that if we're if
Speaker 1: we can make money on most of them. So the
Speaker 1: next two years we did eighteen albums apiece and that
Speaker 1: you know, worked and problems we how much were reissued,
Speaker 1: how much were acts? What's really hard to say. Um, um,
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe half or more reissues. And Okay
Speaker 1: at that point, where the new artist making you any
Speaker 1: money for the most part, no, And it was, like
Speaker 1: I said, very dispiriting. It was the new Cats, the
Speaker 1: pop the Naughty Sweeties. Um. A little bit later, Um
Speaker 1: the Twisters who were like the Beatles of the South day. Uh,
Speaker 1: they made money for us. But there's a Twister story. Mark.
Speaker 1: I was looking for bandit produce. Mark Vollman recommended the Twisters,
Speaker 1: Paul Wexler, Jerry's sign and I cut some stuff. They
Speaker 1: ended up on compilation records, but um, somebody else did
Speaker 1: um uh e p And because they had sexually big
Speaker 1: following they had these new managers who were I don't
Speaker 1: really need it to say much about them other than
Speaker 1: they were they didn't really know what they were doing
Speaker 1: and they wanted to get them a major label deal.
Speaker 1: So when but because the Twisters liked me and everything
Speaker 1: I've done for them, we made a deal to only
Speaker 1: be able to sell the EP in cal FORNI. Alright,
Speaker 1: so we put this out. They have a lot of
Speaker 1: fans k Rocks playing in a you know, just a
Speaker 1: little bit. Um. We end up our first charting record
Speaker 1: on the Record World Chart. We're getting calls from all
Speaker 1: of our distributors. Hey, what is this congratulations, Hey we
Speaker 1: want this record, cancel it to you. It was like,
Speaker 1: you know, Um. One of the things when I interviewed
Speaker 1: Mickey Most when I went over to England. Um, he said,
Speaker 1: when you have momentum as an artist, you go with
Speaker 1: it because you never know when it's gonna end. And
Speaker 1: that ended that day and there for the Twisters and
Speaker 1: what came after the Twisters? Um you mean as far
Speaker 1: as other products, Um, Well, like I said, I mentioned
Speaker 1: those other artists. Um, for the most part, we still
Speaker 1: kind of um here and there tried to, you know,
Speaker 1: help out and do a new artist here or there.
Speaker 1: But it was we diminished it and usually we lost money. Okay,
Speaker 1: what year was the capital distribution distribution deal? Okay? Um,
Speaker 1: that was too effect October Okay, So the question is
Speaker 1: when did you as a company gay momentum? What was
Speaker 1: the turning point for you? Okay, I'm gonna tell you
Speaker 1: kind of what led up to that? Um we had
Speaker 1: this new record. Uh, there was an artist are College
Speaker 1: reup in San Diego found called the beat Farmers who
Speaker 1: were kind of like UM the Blasters UM. We gave
Speaker 1: them a budget. Steve Berlin produced it. He went over budget.
Speaker 1: We gave him a budget of five thousand dollars. He
Speaker 1: came in at six thousand. Anyway, they were going out
Speaker 1: on tour with the Blasters UM in Colorado. They were
Speaker 1: doing better than the Blasters UM our distributor. The problem
Speaker 1: is sometimes these distributors we had to put them on
Speaker 1: hold to try to get our money because so our
Speaker 1: distributor in Colorado UM hadn't paid us in four months.
Speaker 1: So one of the problems was how do you mean
Speaker 1: you know when you have a series. At that point,
Speaker 1: I remember if we had like eight distributors throughout the country.
Speaker 1: But if you don't have a unified network, how do
Speaker 1: you take advantage when something like this happened. So that
Speaker 1: was kind of plan of the seed um and then
Speaker 1: um step two was you know a lot of times
Speaker 1: people in their record business executives, they take credit for things.
Speaker 1: Of course, all right, so here's how the whole capital
Speaker 1: thing happened. No, No, the question is before capital, Okay,
Speaker 1: was it were you? It's seen from the outside you
Speaker 1: were making money, definitely making money, okay, yeah, more reissues
Speaker 1: and you know, I seemed like you were making significant money.
Speaker 1: You had it was a real thing. Was that not
Speaker 1: the case? It seemed to me that you went to
Speaker 1: Capital because of those issues as opposed to boost your
Speaker 1: you know, rescue you well, I think it was maybe
Speaker 1: in the year or two prior to that where we
Speaker 1: had to take out a loan for the first time.
Speaker 1: And the reason wasn't that, you know, the books didn't
Speaker 1: look good as because when they're stringing you out, you know,
Speaker 1: three or four months, and you know, I was, you know,
Speaker 1: not only um bothered by the fact that you know,
Speaker 1: they were stringing us out. Okay, so you make the
Speaker 1: deal with Capital does that turbo charge the company? First
Speaker 1: of all, the good thing, yes, the good thing is
Speaker 1: um it was. I think the deal was something like Capital,
Speaker 1: we're always going to pay us no more, no more
Speaker 1: than sixty days. But if they paid us in less
Speaker 1: than thirty days, they could take two off of the joys.
Speaker 1: I think I think that's what it was. Maybe maybe
Speaker 1: it was less than sixty whatever it was, But the
Speaker 1: point is every month we got a check, you could
Speaker 1: plan on the check, you could build your business. So
Speaker 1: that was so important. Then distribution wise, you know as
Speaker 1: unified national distribution. So we were in a position to
Speaker 1: sell a lot more records at that point too. Okay,
Speaker 1: to what degree did your license capital? EMI? Product? Very
Speaker 1: good question, Um. Capital were slow, but ultimately UM, they did.
Speaker 1: And one of the significant things that they were kind
Speaker 1: of reluctant, but they did. UM. I put together a
Speaker 1: series of the best of the British Invasion because it
Speaker 1: really it was a real passion of mine and still
Speaker 1: is a passion of mine, and also relates to UH
Speaker 1: the book that I published. It was published two years ago,
Speaker 1: so UM, a lot of that was UH material that
Speaker 1: Capital owned. UM. When you think about Billy J. Kramer
Speaker 1: and Dakota's jarring the Pacemakers. By the way, obviously you know,
Speaker 1: no Beatles from Capital. You know, they had a part
Speaker 1: of the Hollies, and you know we had other licensing
Speaker 1: deals in place, the Kings and the Yardbirds, um so um.
Speaker 1: And it I'm leading to a point. So after our
Speaker 1: three year deal, we were happy with Capital, they were
Speaker 1: happy with us. We were exceeding projections. So we had
Speaker 1: three stipulations when we renewed. One was we wanted to
Speaker 1: get more catalog from them that they've been reluctant to
Speaker 1: give us. Now, this wasn't premo stuff like the Beach Boys.
Speaker 1: This is like the Raspberries or the Class of Four.
Speaker 1: And in the contract it had these you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know if it was like six or eight artists
Speaker 1: that we were supposed to put out. So as we
Speaker 1: were in along with the deal, um, we never got it.
Speaker 1: They breached our agreement on three different levels, including us
Speaker 1: giving the stuff because you know, their reissue little departments
Speaker 1: that we want to put it out. And you know,
Speaker 1: I just thought it was just so shortsighted because again
Speaker 1: we were doing well, we were exceeding projection. Let me
Speaker 1: give you an idea um Heart in their hey day
Speaker 1: uh at Capital. Um, I can't remember if there were
Speaker 1: still two or three million albums a cop, I don't know.
Speaker 1: But anyway, we were making for Capital about what Heart
Speaker 1: was making for them. Now, if we were hard, you
Speaker 1: would be like, you know, playing so nice to us,
Speaker 1: what we do for you guys, let's take you out
Speaker 1: whatever it is. And here it's sort of like, you know,
Speaker 1: the opposite. So that's why ultimately, uh, and kind of
Speaker 1: through a boomerang effect, we ended up uh you know,
Speaker 1: making distribution deal with somebody else in this case to Atlantic. Okay,
Speaker 1: at what point did you sell some of the company
Speaker 1: to Atlantic? Okay? Um, here's the Atlantic story again because
Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting. Um, we were offered um to Atlantic.
Speaker 1: This make sure we were offered to you'd come in
Speaker 1: through the Warner Music group. Bob mcgatto. Now Bob mccatto
Speaker 1: wasn't a music guy. Um. He was a speed striter
Speaker 1: for New York Governor Hugh Carey, so he didn't you know,
Speaker 1: we dealt with a lot of these people who inherently
Speaker 1: didn't really have a feel or understanding or let alone
Speaker 1: a lover or appreciation for all the great stuff we
Speaker 1: were doing. He turned us down. Then at some point, um,
Speaker 1: he was offered Fantasy was in play. Okay, if we
Speaker 1: buy Fantasy Records, what do we do with it? Who
Speaker 1: do we get to run it? Then the lawyer said, um, oh,
Speaker 1: you know Rhino's looking for a deal. You know you
Speaker 1: can get Ryano want you buy you know, Ryan, make
Speaker 1: a deal with Rhino. So that's kind of how we
Speaker 1: came into it. Now, Um, in order to make a deal,
Speaker 1: you have to be affiliated with one of those major,
Speaker 1: the three major labels. So Atlanta, headed by Doug Morris,
Speaker 1: wasn't doing that well. Now was made better sense for
Speaker 1: us to be aligned with Warner Brothers out here in
Speaker 1: mo Auston because we were l a based. But there
Speaker 1: was animosity between Mrgato and Mo Austin. So he went
Speaker 1: to Doug Morris and he said, look, we will make
Speaker 1: this deal. And Doug goes, look, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: know you know anything about it. And so Marcato said
Speaker 1: to Morris, look, if they lose money, will take it
Speaker 1: off your books and onto our books. Don't worry about it.
Speaker 1: So again, you know, it wasn't like anybody seeing this
Speaker 1: glowing vision and m so um uh. You know that's
Speaker 1: how we you know, had to look elsewhere from Okay,
Speaker 1: at what point from but it was instantly successful. What
Speaker 1: point did you sell them part of the business? Okay?
Speaker 1: So um at a certain point. So basically it was
Speaker 1: a joint venture um and at a certain point um uh,
Speaker 1: in order for them to be a little bit more
Speaker 1: cooperative on some of the other Atlantic stuff you know
Speaker 1: that we didn't have, by the way, in our contract
Speaker 1: we had Okay, these are the artists that are um okay,
Speaker 1: so the joint venture. Here's the artist that we're going
Speaker 1: to be in control with the Frank and you know,
Speaker 1: the RAS goes a lot of these, but not Crosby, Stills,
Speaker 1: Nash or you know, some of the more high profile ones.
Speaker 1: So um at a certain point, um. You know. By
Speaker 1: the way, we ended up having a really good relationship
Speaker 1: with Doug and then he got fired and then they
Speaker 1: brought it with Michael Fuchs, who you know, came from
Speaker 1: HBO and who was this guy And then took a
Speaker 1: little while, but then he beat He was a fast study.
Speaker 1: At a certain point he was championing Rhino. We had
Speaker 1: this big blowout meeting that he scheduled that Warner Brothers
Speaker 1: with rust Thyrette saying, look, these guys are doing a
Speaker 1: great job. They do much better than you. You know,
Speaker 1: nobody buys a Warner Brothers record. People buy. He was
Speaker 1: rust Thyrette was zeeing his heels and he wasn't giving
Speaker 1: us the stuff we wanted. And then before that could
Speaker 1: be resolved, like I know, two three weeks later, then
Speaker 1: you know, Fuchs was fired. So then in order to
Speaker 1: get stability the two film guys Terry Simuel and Bob Daily,
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, let us take this over. We'll
Speaker 1: stabilize it. Now. Again, these guys knew nothing about the
Speaker 1: music business. So we had meetings with them. You know,
Speaker 1: the relationship was fine, but according to their limited purview,
Speaker 1: in order to um for us to get access to
Speaker 1: Atlantic excuse me, pardon me, um Elektra and Warners, it
Speaker 1: was like, we have to have a deal in place
Speaker 1: where the other fifty percent, you know, the joint venture,
Speaker 1: the other over a certain period becomes part of the
Speaker 1: Warner Music Group. So again it's not something we would
Speaker 1: have preferred. But again, um, you know, it wasn't a
Speaker 1: bad deal on paper whatever, but we weren't thinking that
Speaker 1: It was just more like, you know, we want access
Speaker 1: to these great artists, you know, that are being neglected.
Speaker 1: So that deal was made before Aims came on board. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: Now Doug got fired, he went over to universally started
Speaker 1: a company called Hippo. How did you feel about that?
Speaker 1: We were so piste off at that because obviously, if
Speaker 1: you're gonna start a reissue label, you're not gonna call
Speaker 1: it hippo, are you? And u? Uh we you know
Speaker 1: we placed to call him now. I think we spoke
Speaker 1: to Mel de Winter, who was you know something. We
Speaker 1: had a great relationship with Mel and we we like
Speaker 1: Doug when he was in Atlantic and um, but we
Speaker 1: tried to appeal to him. He wouldn't do it. Um.
Speaker 1: It was meaning like there was no reason why it
Speaker 1: needed to be hippo unless you're kind of trading off
Speaker 1: of like a Ryan Osterris looks like a hipponymous. Okay.
Speaker 1: And then you also in the interim, you had a
Speaker 1: success with Billy Vera. His album was on Alpha and
Speaker 1: It's Stiffed and the company went out of business. You
Speaker 1: licensed it and it was a hit. Now it was
Speaker 1: purely because at this moment was used on TV or
Speaker 1: did you facilitate that? Um? Okay, the Alpha record. Alpha
Speaker 1: was a Japanese company and they wanted to establish um
Speaker 1: Um in the US and in Los Angeles. So um
Speaker 1: that was originally original release one. So um Billy and
Speaker 1: the Beaters played around. Richard used to see him, and
Speaker 1: um Billy said to uh, Richard, look, you know we
Speaker 1: have a following, we have this record. Why don't you
Speaker 1: put it out? And you know we'll have enough fans.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you could sell at least you know, four
Speaker 1: or five thousand copies, you know, to cover yourself. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then he also mentioned about at this moment okay,
Speaker 1: originally at this moment as a single, I think originally
Speaker 1: I think he got up to maybe no higher than seventy.
Speaker 1: So it's a stiff So yeah, they used it in
Speaker 1: family ties UM. So again this is six. So Richard said, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll do it, and he turned it over to UM
Speaker 1: Gary Stewart, who was head of A and R, basically saying, okay,
Speaker 1: there's the two albums, the studio album, a live album,
Speaker 1: take the best stuff. We'll put it out. So that
Speaker 1: came out um UM in the fall of eighty six
Speaker 1: and unbeknownst to anybody, Family Ties used it in an episode.
Speaker 1: It was kind of like, um, it was kind of
Speaker 1: the love theme Michael J. Fox's character and the woman
Speaker 1: he married who was on the show, and then they
Speaker 1: played at the week following and NBC started getting lots
Speaker 1: of these phone calls and that was really the whole
Speaker 1: reason why it became the success. And initially it was
Speaker 1: just only worked in house and in fact, um in January,
Speaker 1: I was at Medem, um, you know, representing Rhino and
Speaker 1: Nyken deals and um like, it went to number one
Speaker 1: while I was in medem and sort of like, when's
Speaker 1: the when's the last time? If if there was ever
Speaker 1: a time when somebody was at Medem with the number
Speaker 1: one record and of the deals I made uh with
Speaker 1: this British company called Fanfare, and the and R guy
Speaker 1: who loved it was Simon cow Oh really okay, But
Speaker 1: famously we talked that they gave you a gold record
Speaker 1: and you told me you were short five thousand or
Speaker 1: fifty thousand, and you thought about sending the gold record back,
Speaker 1: saying it really didn't reach that pinnacle. Okay, Here's which
Speaker 1: I referred to before the kind of the prankster aspect
Speaker 1: about it because you know, as we know, you know,
Speaker 1: gold record, Really what does it mean? There is the
Speaker 1: infamous case about uh, the Johnny Carson album on Casablanca,
Speaker 1: like I was, it was certified platinum and returned double platinum,
Speaker 1: you know, things like that. So this was like a
Speaker 1: joke thing. So, um, the album sold over five hundred thousand,
Speaker 1: We got it certified as a gold record. We made
Speaker 1: we gave a gold record to every employee. But you know,
Speaker 1: as we know in the business, you know, returns months later.
Speaker 1: You know, we were I don't know if we were
Speaker 1: you know, under by you know, twenty five thousand or whatever.
Speaker 1: It was. So as a joke, Um, I wrote a
Speaker 1: letter to the R I A basically saying, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, we've got a certified goal, but you know
Speaker 1: we should you know, you know, do we need to
Speaker 1: send you back the gold records? You know, total joke,
Speaker 1: right because you have to have you know, nobody would
Speaker 1: ever do because you know, such a vanity thing. Hey,
Speaker 1: I go to old record regardless of what it sold.
Speaker 1: So again the prankster aspect, and I didn't hear anything.
Speaker 1: After like three weeks, I called the R A and
Speaker 1: they said, oh no, you don't have to send back.
Speaker 1: We only certify on what was shipped. So anyway, at
Speaker 1: at a certain point when we moved to a new location,
Speaker 1: I had a little mini Rhino museum, which again kind
Speaker 1: of was to you know, satirize other aspects of museums
Speaker 1: that take themselves so seriously. And I had the Gold
Speaker 1: Record in there, and also a be of my letter
Speaker 1: to the R. I A A, Okay, what are you
Speaker 1: most proud of that you did at Rhino Records. Well,
Speaker 1: I guess you're talking about organization or product. Well you
Speaker 1: can answer both ways. Well, I mean it was a
Speaker 1: lot that I was proud of. Obviously, we need to
Speaker 1: have a successful, profitable company in order to make everything
Speaker 1: else work. But we were very humane as a company.
Speaker 1: I feel really good about that. We treat our employees
Speaker 1: really well. Um during the Clinton administration, Robert Reich, Secretary
Speaker 1: of Labor, presented us with the Corporate Citizenship Award, which
Speaker 1: is the only one awarded to entertainment company. So when
Speaker 1: Richard and I started out, We've never been to business school,
Speaker 1: we didn't know anything. We would read books and Tom
Speaker 1: Peters in search of excellence. We got a lot of
Speaker 1: things from him in that book, and one of the
Speaker 1: things is treat your employees as an asset. And that
Speaker 1: really meant a lot to us. And it's kind of
Speaker 1: surprising to us through of the years even seeing uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the other Warner labels or the Warner Music
Speaker 1: Group and Action. You know, that was kind of like
Speaker 1: that wasn't embraced so um that obviously um at the time.
Speaker 1: The fact that the industry kicked in gear and focused
Speaker 1: more on quality reissues owes everything to us, because prior
Speaker 1: to that, it was more like, you know, let's see
Speaker 1: if we could squeeze out a few more bucks from
Speaker 1: these old hits, and let's just uh, you know, not
Speaker 1: spend Let's spend the least amount of money possible. So
Speaker 1: we you know, really upgrading all that. And then also,
Speaker 1: more importantly than anything, whether it's you know, the books
Speaker 1: I've written or what we were doing at Rhino, the
Speaker 1: music is always the most important thing. And all you know,
Speaker 1: with your newsletter, even the original news letter, the music
Speaker 1: is the most important thing. It could transform you. And
Speaker 1: to us, it was always to make a lot of
Speaker 1: this stuff available, uh, and in some cases, if it
Speaker 1: hadn't been available, um before and to make it, you know,
Speaker 1: uh sound good for either people who never experienced it
Speaker 1: initially or were vaguely familiar with it, or people who
Speaker 1: needed to be reminded that you really liked this. Here
Speaker 1: it is and you're gonna enjoy listening to this. Okay,
Speaker 1: So your tenure ends at Rano approximately fifteen years ago.
Speaker 1: At this point in time, are you fine with that?
Speaker 1: Or you think there was something you wanted to do
Speaker 1: or still want to do before you reach the end? Well? Um,
Speaker 1: the main problem when I left Rhino wasn't leading Rhino
Speaker 1: was more like how it handled how it was handled,
Speaker 1: but not to get into that. Um. So for the
Speaker 1: most part, given limitations, I had basically done everything I
Speaker 1: felt that I could do, you know, given the constraints.
Speaker 1: Because I uh produced a few films at that point,
Speaker 1: uh and because I was working on a and you
Speaker 1: Monkey's TV show with Simon Fuller. There was the uh
Speaker 1: My Dinner with Jimmy movie, the low budget Howard Kaylin
Speaker 1: movie that I we were in post production on, so
Speaker 1: I was kind of involved in that. But I was
Speaker 1: really thinking, um feature film because and ideally what I
Speaker 1: wanted to do, which is more what we've experienced this year.
Speaker 1: But I just think if you're in a movie theater
Speaker 1: and you're hearing really great rock music over these loud speakers,
Speaker 1: it's just a total unique experience. And I thought, here's
Speaker 1: a way to not only expose people to cattle to
Speaker 1: the great music, but to sell soundtracks. So that's what
Speaker 1: ideally wanted to do, but that really didn't happen for me. Well, ultimately,
Speaker 1: you helped preserve the history of rock and roll, as
Speaker 1: you said, with quality. So we all owe a debt
Speaker 1: to Harold. Thanks so much for being here and tell
Speaker 1: your story. Thanks. I enjoying it.