WEBVTT - #421 Jason Flom with James Gibson 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:06.280 On December twenty second, nineteen eighty nine, in the South 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:09.559 Side of Chicago, a neighborhood insurance broker visited an auto 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.680 repair shop owner to collect his premium, but to visit 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:18.080 ended with both men fatally shot. Investigators allegedly received an 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:20.639 anonymous tip that a man known as Peter Gunn and 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.799 his brother may have been involved, which led investigators to 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.759 a young man with that nickname, James Gibson and his 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:32.240 brother Harold. But Harold had an insurmountable alibi where James 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:36.159 did not. A lengthy interrogation produced a statement naming two 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.600 other men, Eric Johnson and Fernando Webb, who were also 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:43.240 brought in for questioning, producing two new statements indicating that 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.239 James Gibson had hired Eric Johnson as a lookout for 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:50.199 a robbery gone wrong. The courts must have thought that 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:54.480 allegations of police brutality and coerce confessions were just vain 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:59.640 attempts to get away with a double murder. But this 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:14.479 is wrong for conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction where 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:18.080 today we're going once again to Cook County, for he 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:23.200 had another tragic encounter with John Burge and his midnight 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.880 crew and their unique brand of evil. And although we 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:29.200 obviously hate what our guests went through to be here, 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:32.240 we're just absolutely honored to have him here with us. 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:35.800 James Gibson, Welcome to the show. Thank you, And of 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.160 course with him is a civil rights attorney from Action 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:43.319 Injury Logroo ab out of Chicago, Andrew M. Stroth. Andrew, 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:44.440 welcome to the show. 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:45.039 Thank you. 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:50.120 Now we've covered Midnight Crew cases before, Marcus Wiggins, Sean Tyler, 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.200 Reggie Henderson, but they don't even begin to scratch the 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:57.480 service of the depravity and pure evil that was taking 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:01.240 place under the watch of Detective Commander John Burge, who 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.760 had come off the battlefields of Korea and Vietnam and 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.800 brought with him torture tactics to the streets of Chicago, 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:13.720 and he was brutalizing suspects and witnesses alike from the 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.520 early seventies through his termination in nineteen ninety three. But 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:23.240 the torture didn't stop there. It continued on through his cohorts, 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:30.919 detectives Foley Hallerin Palladino, Boudreau, O'Brien, Maslanka and many many 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:34.840 others as well as they're enablers in the judiciary and 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:38.079 the state's attorney's office, and when a crime occurred, they 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:43.480 kidnapped black children and young men off the streets, seemingly random, 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:45.880 without any rhyme or reason, and then they'd take him 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:52.560 to this warehouse torture chamber where they'd beat, electrocute, starve them, 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:57.880 suffocate them or worse until false statements again would send 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.400 another innocent person to prison. Of course, the real perpetrator 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.880 would get away with the crime. But James, before you 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.440 had the misfortune of meeting these dirt bags. You grew 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.000 up in Chicago, right, So what was your childhood like? 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:12.320 I grew up in a house of silence. My mother 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.160 was deaf and she did the best that she could 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:17.560 with the decks that was dealt to her as I 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:20.600 had to cap African American woman, single parent. 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:22.919 And you were one of five siblings, right. 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:25.560 Two of my siblings they passed away before I was born, 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.800 So yes, it would be like five siblings just my 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:28.880 mother's mediate kids. 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.800 Yes, Wow, that must have been really tough on the family, 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:36.600 losing two children, I mean one is hard, like impossible 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.440 to get over. Too is too much? Now, what were 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:41.800 you up to and the lead up to the time 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:42.880 that this crime occurred. 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:45.240 I graduated of high school with honors and later went 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.480 on to Walie College in Marshall, Texas. I was young, 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:51.240 dating a young lady. We had a baby on the way. 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:53.600 She was in the military, and it was around the 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:56.520 holiday season in nineteen eighty nine, and I was on 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.840 a break, trying to get my finances together, trying to 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:03.280 get my housing together and figure out my next move 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:03.680 in life. 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:05.960 Oh, so your girlfriend was in the military, as was 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:09.080 your sister. So now you're back in Chicago with family, 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:12.040 getting things ready for your new baby and the holidays. 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:14.400 Now I want to turn to Andrew to get the 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.560 facts of what happened here these two older gentlemen, as 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.600 I understand it, Lloyd Benjamin and Hunter Wash just around 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:23.920 the block from James's childhood home at an autobody shop 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.320 that I understand was mister WASH's place of business. 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:31.560 You're right, mister Wash operated an automobile repair shop and garage. 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:36.800 His nickname around the neighborhood was Smiley. And then Lloyd Benjamin, 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:41.400 who everybody knew in the neighborhood, was called the insurance 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:45.919 man because he sold insurance to the folks in the 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:50.840 community and collected the premiums, and on December twenty second, 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:55.600 nineteen eighty nine, he was in the area collecting premiums 0:04:55.839 --> 0:05:00.200 and Lloyd Benjamin and Hunter Wash were murder. 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:04.880 Right, fatally shot, and it's assumed that the assailant or 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:09.760 assailants were after those premiums. However, nothing was reported to 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.279 be taken from either victim. And then there's this extra 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:16.400 added racial dynamic where mister Benjamin was a white guy 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:22.120 murdered in a predominantly black area. Now, were there any witnesses, leads, 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:23.480 anything at all. 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:27.120 There's no witnesses that we believe with any credibility that 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:31.440 came to the police and said they saw the actual murder, 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:37.280 No affirmative DNA or other objective evidence. 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.240 So not a lot to go on. But again, this 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.359 was the Midnight Crew, where the pattern in practice was 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:46.560 to write their own narratives and just coerce it's too 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.960 nice for word, torture people into saying whatever lies they 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:53.400 wrote down in order to close the case. So somehow 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:57.440 or another, James's nickname Peter Gunn got thrown into the mix. 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.160 But they said on a record today was anonymous off 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.000 from a female who did not identify theyself, and then 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:04.880 they said it was somebody on the street that had 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.359 spread rumors that a god named Peter Gunn and his 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:10.479 brother had did a crime. And so our detectives had 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.560 entered in my mother's home in South Side Chicago and 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.160 raided the house and arrested my brother, my eldest brother, 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.360 Harold Gibson, and several other guys in the neighborhood. 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:24.039 So, according to the Midnight Crew, a nameless, faceless source 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:28.120 and quote unquote word on the street is what led 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.120 them to you and your brother Harold, in addition to 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:35.120 two other guys, Eric Johnson and Fernando Webb. So when 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.160 and how did you end up in this nightmare? 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:40.920 I got contacted and so I headed back to my 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.000 mother's home. Once I entered into her home, I noticed 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:45.880 that my great grandmother at the time, was on the 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:48.400 floor and the house was in dis ray. Keep in 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:51.039 mind that my mother cannot hear, so my mother was 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.279 trying to explain or talk the best she could and 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.560 languagees she had. She points over towards a card. The 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:01.560 card had on it phone numbers and thenify his detectives o' 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:04.839 myers and Collins. When I called a number on the card. 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:07.440 At first I thought it was John Burgess, but it 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:10.160 was Sods and Burn. I get those names kind of 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.960 confused sometimes because I never encountered these people until this moment. 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.000 And they transferred me to whatever they did how they 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.600 did it back then. And they was talking back and forth, 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.360 and I get a knock at the door my mother's house. 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:23.840 When I opened the door, the door was flooded with 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.240 guns and officers, you know what I'm saying. And so 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.280 they came in and they asked me a few questions. 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.800 I identified myself. They asked me about my nickname, Peter gun. 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:34.720 I said, yes, my name is Peter Gunn. You know 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:36.720 my nickname is Peter gun. They said, come with us, 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:40.560 and they took me to this place on California, somewhere 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:42.400 in Chicago, and they put me in the room. I 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.360 later learned that it was called Area three, Era three 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:46.240 a homicide. 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:50.520 James and his brother were taken into custody and beaten. 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.559 He was kicked, he was slapped by these officers, John 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.560 Burge and the Midnight Crew. He was held overnight. He 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.840 was handcuffed to a chair, not able to sleep, not 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:03.320 giving any food or drink, nor was he even. 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:04.840 Allowed to use the washroom. 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:10.280 James was then put into three different lineups by officers 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:16.080 O'Mara Collins, Maslanka Palladino, and McCann and he was not 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.600 identified in any of these lineups. 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:22.400 Right, and it's not hard to imagine that that happened 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.400 even with the most suggestive tactics at the midnight cou 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:25.960 could muster. 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:28.520 It was ninet eight hours. They had me in these rooms, 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:31.000 different rooms, and custody beating on me and slapping on 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:34.719 me and broke my ribs, burnt me and played all 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.240 in my balls and slapped me around and all that. 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:39.440 But I had been knocked out a few times. I 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.280 didn't realize that it had been four days, ninety eight 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:44.880 hours that I had been beat on and towuched and 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:45.680 all this other stuff. 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.199 Meanwhile, if we can go to like a split screen here, 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.679 you're getting moved from room to room beaten. And your 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.240 sister and her husband were just arriving in town from 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.559 the military at Midway Airport. 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.920 My sister she was doing a transfer from Washington d 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:03.160 I'm not quite sure she's going to career journey. But 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.360 it was ten hours or twelve hour layover before she 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:08.760 leaded country, and so by my mother, living a few 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.480 blocks from airports, she came in and found out that 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:13.480 both of her brothers was in custody. 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.439 But your brother, Harold had such an air tight, convincing 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:21.520 and provable alibi that they had no choice but to 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:25.559 eventually drop the charges against him. However, it seems they 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:30.240 found your alibi to be penetrable enough to continue on 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:35.640 with this horrible frame job. And meanwhile, unbeknownst to you, 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.000 your sister and her husband were on their way to 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:41.439 Area three in full uniform. So then what happened? 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:43.640 They had taken me into a room. It was two 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:46.680 States attorney one I was a female, the other male, 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:50.680 and the two detectives Foley fol e Y and another 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:51.880 guy not quite sure. 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:56.040 And our audience will remember detective Foley from the awful 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:59.960 case of Sean Tyler and Reggie Henderson. So what happened 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:00.840 in this room? 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.200 To stop the beatings, in the torture, after being burned 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.040 and all that stuff, I agreed to make a statement. 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:09.800 And so they was preparing the statement. They said, we're 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:12.880 going we want you to put your initiues jag on 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.640 each sentence that we complete, and then we're gonna turn 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.320 it into the state's attorney to stop this ass whooping. 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.120 So at the ninety eighth hour, they going over prepping 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:24.360 me with the statement to sign. The door bust open 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:27.400 and with sodge and burned. He busted into the room 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.280 and he whispered something to the state's attorney leers that 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:33.960 this nigga got the military downstairs, and they asked a 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.720 lot of questions. There was my sister and a husband 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:38.960 with their uniforms on, and I later found out that 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.600 they was talking to John Burds at the time, and 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.520 so man Alaska and Panadeno, I think that's the name 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:46.520 that if I promound them right that came in. She 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:48.959 told him get his ass out of here and take 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:50.720 him down the other way and get him out of here, 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.920 and boomlegs for me find to sign the double murdered 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.880 confessions to stop the beating to snatching my ass up 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:58.959 and running me down the back stepth and throwing me 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:00.040 in the backseat of a car. 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:04.360 Which doesn't really sound like standard operating procedure for a 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.760 suspect and a double murder. Right, had as much sarcasm 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:09.800 to that as you possibly can, because I hope it 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:12.840 was dripping with it, and then I understand they just 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:14.760 took you home that. 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:16.760 They was like, we're gonna drop you off, so and 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:18.600 I told them it would take me in an alley, man, 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:20.040 drop me off in the back. I don't want no 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.040 motherfucker seeing me with y'all man, y'all be in and 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.080 there beating on me and shit. And now you're gonna 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:25.720 drop me off in front of my house, like y'all 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:27.800 my friend and shit, they might think I'm telling something. 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:29.600 So they dropped me off in the back of the house. 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:31.880 And as I was coming in the side dope at 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.719 my mother's house, my sister's coming in the front dough 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:36.880 and all of the kids in them. They read to 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.320 try to embrace me, but I had injuries I didn't 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:41.360 know I had on my body. So when they went 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:45.200 to grab me out, I broke down and my sister's like, 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.560 what's going on? Is wrong with you? And so that's 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:49.920 when me and my sister had a conversation about many 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:51.960 this is what they did to me, And so she 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:54.319 before I know it, she grabbed the phone and started 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.600 calling some military people and stuff, and they gave her 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:58.559 a phone number. The call she ended up calling down 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:00.040 into ops. 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:03.320 And OPS stands for Office of Professional Standards, which was 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.960 founded in the nineteen seventies to carry out independent investigations 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:09.679 of mounting allegations of police brutality. 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.160 I didn't notice at that time you can call the police. 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:14.480 On the police. My sister was like, man, they did this, 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:16.520 it's a gainst the law. I'm locking the ass up. 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.000 OPS ended up getting in the phone car. His name 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:21.000 was Ortiz or something like that. I say, man, they 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:22.880 beat my head of it. They say, man, can you identify? 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:24.680 I tell him on the name on the card, and 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:26.480 that what happened? Say, man, hold On almost sent a 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:27.440 cop to get. 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.560 You tomorrow, but as I understand it, there was another 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.040 car coming for you that night. It turns out that 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:35.839 the Midnight crew had also been working on Fernando Webb 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.720 and Eric Johnson, who had probably been made aware of 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.160 your alleged statement. What was in that statement. 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:44.679 The contest of the false statement after the ninety eight 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:46.680 hours a torture me and beat me and burning me 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.200 was that I was outside of the garage and seeing 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.600 Eric Johnson hand the gun to Bodine which is Falander 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:54.280 Web and committed the crime. 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.080 So the statement placed you as a witness even though 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:00.120 you hadn't seen anything, and it looked like Webb was 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:03.120 actually their target, at least at the time that you 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:04.000 gave your statement. 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.600 It's our perspective, based on the evidence that we reviewed, 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:12.160 that Fernando Webb, who was a heroin addict, had a 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.840 history of weapon offenses, a history of armed robberies, attempted murder, 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:21.280 and other violent crimes, was the person that committed this 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:22.480 double murder. 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:25.160 And as we so often see, somebody who's in a 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.679 position like Web was maybe tempted to trade false information 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:33.040 for leniency or even freedom. So what did his statement say? 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:36.440 That he was shooting heron and he was walking his 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:39.200 dog to go get him another fix a heron and 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.680 that he walked up to a guy with a gun 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.280 in his hand and he asked this guy with the 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:46.559 gun in his hand, man, what's up? And then he 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.200 got three blocks away in her gun shots? Did they 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:51.880 turn out identified the guy that he asked, what's up 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:53.880 with the gun in his hands? Peter Gun? 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.480 And it's unclear when this statement was made. Perhaps Webb 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.320 was even the original source of your nickname. Either way, 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.400 his false statement made James the shooter and completely removed 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:07.720 Web from culpability. No mention of Eric Johnson, by the way, 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.120 So what was in his statement? 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:15.960 Johnson made a statement to police that James Gibson told 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.720 him about his plans to rob Lloyd Benjamin, and that 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:24.360 James paid him fifty dollars to be on the lookout. 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:30.000 Johnson also said he saw James shoot and kill Benjamin. 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.200 This statement was false also because Johnson was tortured, threatened, 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:38.920 and beaten by Officer McCann, Caesar Bresca, Rusnick, Maslanka Palladino, and. 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:43.720 Burn Right, so obviously unreliable. But this false statement made 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:47.760 James the shooter once again, while keeping Johnson closely involved 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:49.080 enough to identify him. 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:51.440 Yeah, he said this the cats though, just the cats. 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.040 I want you to get this, he said. I paid 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:58.160 him to wats me to do a stick up because 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:01.080 I needed money to fix one of my disc able vehicles. 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:04.320 Right, if you needed to rob for that money, how 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:08.960 could you have paid him anything? It makes no sense. Plus, 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:11.600 nothing had been reported as taken from the victims. But 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:13.600 now they had two statements saying that you were the 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.960 shooter and Eric Johnson had allegedly named himself as your 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:21.200 accomplice and eventually Johnson's sisters, Carlos Smith and Janis Johnson 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:24.080 were dragged into this as well, so the midnight creup 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.720 came back to get you before ops could. 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.400 They came back and rearrested me a couple hours later, 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:31.840 once the complaints was fouled. When they came back and 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.480 got me the second time, they took me up to 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.040 another place on the third floor and they put me 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.920 in like a cage set in the middle of all 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.240 of their desses. And then I've seen them bringing in 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.720 Colin Smith and Janis Johnson and all the other stuff. 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:49.520 The officers used intimidation and lies in order to get 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:54.880 these two sisters to corroborate the story that Gibson killed 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.960 mister Benjamin and mister Wash And what the officers told 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.000 them based on what we know, is that they would 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.640 be light on their brother if they went along with 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:04.160 the story. 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:07.840 Janis Johnson said, I broke into the house and start 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:12.080 immediately sharing a robbery playing with our whole family. 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:16.680 So no witnesses from our perspective had any credibility, And. 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:18.880 Then ended up at the county jail in front of 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.640 the judge basket on the chief judge. They told me 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:23.800 you get out front of judge. Man, keep your motherfucking 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:25.920 hands behind your back. So when I went out in 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.400 front of the judge, I put my hands behind my 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.800 back and my left bridcase popped out of my chest. 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.480 When it popped out of my chest, I fell down 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.200 to the ground. Chef Judge basted on. He looked over 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:39.240 the bench and he said, what's going on? And out 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:41.560 of anger, I said, the motherfuckers they kicked me in 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.240 my chest, saithing wrong on my chest. I can't breathe 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:46.480 like what? And then the chief Judge turned over to 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.000 the bailiff the police. He said, where y'all just bring 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.560 it from? And then the turn he said, I bought 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:53.840 every three brought to me. He said what every three? 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:56.280 He told turn get the police, closed the door, lock 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:58.760 all the dopes and told the public finers, bring them 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:00.840 back in the back to my chamber. So when I 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:02.640 got back to the back of the chamber, there was 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.760 a lot of motions and arguing and shit going back 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:07.840 with the chief Judge and the public defending. The state's 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.280 attorney telling man, get your supervisor in and you get 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.520 your order, and you get a photography and and you 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:14.920 get them people to bring them in here and having 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.800 me shipped to Sirmac Hospital, et cetera. 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:22.199 Wow, So the abuse was actually going to be documented. 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.719 It seems like this judge Bastone might have actually been 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:26.560 a decent person. 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:30.600 I mean, if you say a decent person, uh. 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.240 I mean decency seems really hard to come by in 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:34.320 a story like yours. 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:36.480 Does bast don't save my life? 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:36.840 Man? 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:41.480 I'm different and different him recording and taking those photographs 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.240 of those injuries because they tried to destroy them, and 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.800 discovery he kept a copy if you want for us. 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.280 Bast don't having the courage the order to sign all 0:17:50.320 --> 0:18:06.360 the photographs with his BADS number his next the photos 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.920 wasn't revealed. From nineteen eighty nine to twenty fifteen, every 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:11.439 time I went in front of the judge, I was 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:15.000 actually my defense attorney about the police reports, the photographs, 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.000 the statements, the evidence, and he was telling me there 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:20.400 was no evidence, there was no statement, there was no 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:20.800 none of that. 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:23.640 And unfortunately, your trial was not going to be held 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.440 in front of Judge bass Stone, but instead a judge 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:30.760 named Nevills. So one can surmise that the photographic proof 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:34.280 of this brutality was now being hidden. But your public 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.600 defender Paul Stroker, he didn't raise the issue. 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.320 No, no, my public offender was in on the fix, 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.080 as well as the judge, Neviles, and the state's attorney 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:44.800 and all the rest of them. But we got into 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.119 a dialogue about the pictures and the photos with the 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:48.720 judge and the trial to Spain, well, no, I'm not 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.040 the judge that would die there, etcetera, etcetera. And what 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.040 pictures you talk about and they never came into the trial. 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:56.359 I mean, your lawyer, you think he'd reach out to 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.960 Judge bass Stone, but that's just not what happened. And you, James, 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.960 most of our guests wait until after they're convicted to 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.080 learn the law, but you started in pre trial. 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:08.960 All the motions that was filed before trial and after trial, 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.159 and in trial, they was all motions that I found 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.000 pro saye. Every time I went in front of the judge, 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:17.000 I would Backdome, my lawyer, because we would have conversations 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.159 before we go in front of the judge about certain 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:21.520 issues and he would tell me from bullshit, and then 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:23.320 we get out front of the judge. I would put 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:25.400 him on the front street and then the judge would 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:27.600 try to tell me some stuff, and then the state's 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:29.840 attorney tried to tempts up, but I had motions already 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.520 prepared to file on myself. But because I wasn't skilled 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.440 in the expertise and criminal science of law at that time, 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:38.879 I was trying to perfect and bring in my issues 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:39.800 as best I could. 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:42.680 But obviously you weren't going to be skilled enough yet 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.400 for the monster that you were trying to do battle with. 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:48.919 Right it was David versus Goliath for what we were 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:49.520 up against. 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:53.280 So I ended up having a conversation with attorney Timothy Nash, 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:55.840 which was a paid attorney for Eric Johnson, to try 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:58.160 to preserve some of those issues, and we ended up 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:01.040 having the motion hearing watch the rest is press to 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:03.840 Evanson's statement separately but together. 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.680 Meaning that both you and Eric Johnson had both been 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:10.719 severely beaten, that the statements were therefore clearly unreliable and 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.879 should have been thrown out immediately, all while your lawyer was, 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:16.240 I don't know, taking a nap. 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:18.880 And so what they did was they brought in all 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:22.440 these declarated officers with their bags and their uniform zone 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:24.679