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Speaker 1: On December twenty second, nineteen eighty nine, in the South

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Speaker 1: Side of Chicago, a neighborhood insurance broker visited an auto

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Speaker 1: repair shop owner to collect his premium, but to visit

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Speaker 1: ended with both men fatally shot. Investigators allegedly received an

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Speaker 1: anonymous tip that a man known as Peter Gunn and

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Speaker 1: his brother may have been involved, which led investigators to

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Speaker 1: a young man with that nickname, James Gibson and his

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Speaker 1: brother Harold. But Harold had an insurmountable alibi where James

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Speaker 1: did not. A lengthy interrogation produced a statement naming two

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Speaker 1: other men, Eric Johnson and Fernando Webb, who were also

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Speaker 1: brought in for questioning, producing two new statements indicating that

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Speaker 1: James Gibson had hired Eric Johnson as a lookout for

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Speaker 1: a robbery gone wrong. The courts must have thought that

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Speaker 1: allegations of police brutality and coerce confessions were just vain

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Speaker 1: attempts to get away with a double murder. But this

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Speaker 1: is wrong for conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction where

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Speaker 1: today we're going once again to Cook County, for he

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Speaker 1: had another tragic encounter with John Burge and his midnight

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Speaker 1: crew and their unique brand of evil. And although we

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Speaker 1: obviously hate what our guests went through to be here,

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Speaker 1: we're just absolutely honored to have him here with us.

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Speaker 1: James Gibson, Welcome to the show. Thank you, And of

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Speaker 1: course with him is a civil rights attorney from Action

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Speaker 1: Injury Logroo ab out of Chicago, Andrew M. Stroth. Andrew,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Now we've covered Midnight Crew cases before, Marcus Wiggins, Sean Tyler,

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Speaker 1: Reggie Henderson, but they don't even begin to scratch the

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Speaker 1: service of the depravity and pure evil that was taking

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Speaker 1: place under the watch of Detective Commander John Burge, who

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Speaker 1: had come off the battlefields of Korea and Vietnam and

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Speaker 1: brought with him torture tactics to the streets of Chicago,

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Speaker 1: and he was brutalizing suspects and witnesses alike from the

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Speaker 1: early seventies through his termination in nineteen ninety three. But

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Speaker 1: the torture didn't stop there. It continued on through his cohorts,

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Speaker 1: detectives Foley Hallerin Palladino, Boudreau, O'Brien, Maslanka and many many

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Speaker 1: others as well as they're enablers in the judiciary and

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Speaker 1: the state's attorney's office, and when a crime occurred, they

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Speaker 1: kidnapped black children and young men off the streets, seemingly random,

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Speaker 1: without any rhyme or reason, and then they'd take him

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Speaker 1: to this warehouse torture chamber where they'd beat, electrocute, starve them,

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Speaker 1: suffocate them or worse until false statements again would send

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Speaker 1: another innocent person to prison. Of course, the real perpetrator

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Speaker 1: would get away with the crime. But James, before you

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Speaker 1: had the misfortune of meeting these dirt bags. You grew

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Speaker 1: up in Chicago, right, So what was your childhood like?

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Speaker 2: I grew up in a house of silence. My mother

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Speaker 2: was deaf and she did the best that she could

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Speaker 2: with the decks that was dealt to her as I

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Speaker 2: had to cap African American woman, single parent.

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Speaker 1: And you were one of five siblings, right.

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Speaker 2: Two of my siblings they passed away before I was born,

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Speaker 2: So yes, it would be like five siblings just my

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Speaker 2: mother's mediate kids.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Wow, that must have been really tough on the family,

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Speaker 1: losing two children, I mean one is hard, like impossible

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Speaker 1: to get over. Too is too much? Now, what were

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Speaker 1: you up to and the lead up to the time

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Speaker 1: that this crime occurred.

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Speaker 2: I graduated of high school with honors and later went

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Speaker 2: on to Walie College in Marshall, Texas. I was young,

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Speaker 2: dating a young lady. We had a baby on the way.

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Speaker 2: She was in the military, and it was around the

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Speaker 2: holiday season in nineteen eighty nine, and I was on

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Speaker 2: a break, trying to get my finances together, trying to

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Speaker 2: get my housing together and figure out my next move

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Speaker 2: in life.

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Speaker 1: Oh, so your girlfriend was in the military, as was

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Speaker 1: your sister. So now you're back in Chicago with family,

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Speaker 1: getting things ready for your new baby and the holidays.

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Speaker 1: Now I want to turn to Andrew to get the

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Speaker 1: facts of what happened here these two older gentlemen, as

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Speaker 1: I understand it, Lloyd Benjamin and Hunter Wash just around

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Speaker 1: the block from James's childhood home at an autobody shop

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Speaker 1: that I understand was mister WASH's place of business.

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Speaker 3: You're right, mister Wash operated an automobile repair shop and garage.

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Speaker 3: His nickname around the neighborhood was Smiley. And then Lloyd Benjamin,

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Speaker 3: who everybody knew in the neighborhood, was called the insurance

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Speaker 3: man because he sold insurance to the folks in the

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Speaker 3: community and collected the premiums, and on December twenty second,

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty nine, he was in the area collecting premiums

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Speaker 3: and Lloyd Benjamin and Hunter Wash were murder.

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Speaker 1: Right, fatally shot, and it's assumed that the assailant or

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Speaker 1: assailants were after those premiums. However, nothing was reported to

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Speaker 1: be taken from either victim. And then there's this extra

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Speaker 1: added racial dynamic where mister Benjamin was a white guy

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Speaker 1: murdered in a predominantly black area. Now, were there any witnesses, leads,

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Speaker 1: anything at all.

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Speaker 3: There's no witnesses that we believe with any credibility that

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Speaker 3: came to the police and said they saw the actual murder,

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Speaker 3: No affirmative DNA or other objective evidence.

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Speaker 1: So not a lot to go on. But again, this

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Speaker 1: was the Midnight Crew, where the pattern in practice was

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Speaker 1: to write their own narratives and just coerce it's too

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Speaker 1: nice for word, torture people into saying whatever lies they

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Speaker 1: wrote down in order to close the case. So somehow

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Speaker 1: or another, James's nickname Peter Gunn got thrown into the mix.

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Speaker 2: But they said on a record today was anonymous off

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Speaker 2: from a female who did not identify theyself, and then

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Speaker 2: they said it was somebody on the street that had

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Speaker 2: spread rumors that a god named Peter Gunn and his

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Speaker 2: brother had did a crime. And so our detectives had

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Speaker 2: entered in my mother's home in South Side Chicago and

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Speaker 2: raided the house and arrested my brother, my eldest brother,

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Speaker 2: Harold Gibson, and several other guys in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: So, according to the Midnight Crew, a nameless, faceless source

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Speaker 1: and quote unquote word on the street is what led

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Speaker 1: them to you and your brother Harold, in addition to

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Speaker 1: two other guys, Eric Johnson and Fernando Webb. So when

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Speaker 1: and how did you end up in this nightmare?

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Speaker 2: I got contacted and so I headed back to my

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Speaker 2: mother's home. Once I entered into her home, I noticed

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Speaker 2: that my great grandmother at the time, was on the

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Speaker 2: floor and the house was in dis ray. Keep in

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Speaker 2: mind that my mother cannot hear, so my mother was

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Speaker 2: trying to explain or talk the best she could and

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Speaker 2: languagees she had. She points over towards a card. The

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Speaker 2: card had on it phone numbers and thenify his detectives o'

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Speaker 2: myers and Collins. When I called a number on the card.

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Speaker 2: At first I thought it was John Burgess, but it

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Speaker 2: was Sods and Burn. I get those names kind of

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Speaker 2: confused sometimes because I never encountered these people until this moment.

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Speaker 2: And they transferred me to whatever they did how they

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Speaker 2: did it back then. And they was talking back and forth,

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Speaker 2: and I get a knock at the door my mother's house.

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Speaker 2: When I opened the door, the door was flooded with

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Speaker 2: guns and officers, you know what I'm saying. And so

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Speaker 2: they came in and they asked me a few questions.

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Speaker 2: I identified myself. They asked me about my nickname, Peter gun.

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Speaker 2: I said, yes, my name is Peter Gunn. You know

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Speaker 2: my nickname is Peter gun. They said, come with us,

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Speaker 2: and they took me to this place on California, somewhere

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Speaker 2: in Chicago, and they put me in the room. I

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Speaker 2: later learned that it was called Area three, Era three

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Speaker 2: a homicide.

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Speaker 3: James and his brother were taken into custody and beaten.

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Speaker 3: He was kicked, he was slapped by these officers, John

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Speaker 3: Burge and the Midnight Crew. He was held overnight. He

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Speaker 3: was handcuffed to a chair, not able to sleep, not

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Speaker 3: giving any food or drink, nor was he even.

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Speaker 2: Allowed to use the washroom.

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Speaker 3: James was then put into three different lineups by officers

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Speaker 3: O'Mara Collins, Maslanka Palladino, and McCann and he was not

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Speaker 3: identified in any of these lineups.

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Speaker 1: Right, and it's not hard to imagine that that happened

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Speaker 1: even with the most suggestive tactics at the midnight cou

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Speaker 1: could muster.

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Speaker 2: It was ninet eight hours. They had me in these rooms,

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Speaker 2: different rooms, and custody beating on me and slapping on

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Speaker 2: me and broke my ribs, burnt me and played all

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Speaker 2: in my balls and slapped me around and all that.

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Speaker 2: But I had been knocked out a few times. I

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Speaker 2: didn't realize that it had been four days, ninety eight

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Speaker 2: hours that I had been beat on and towuched and

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Speaker 2: all this other stuff.

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Speaker 1: Meanwhile, if we can go to like a split screen here,

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Speaker 1: you're getting moved from room to room beaten. And your

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Speaker 1: sister and her husband were just arriving in town from

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Speaker 1: the military at Midway Airport.

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Speaker 2: My sister she was doing a transfer from Washington d

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Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure she's going to career journey. But

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Speaker 2: it was ten hours or twelve hour layover before she

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Speaker 2: leaded country, and so by my mother, living a few

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Speaker 2: blocks from airports, she came in and found out that

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Speaker 2: both of her brothers was in custody.

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Speaker 1: But your brother, Harold had such an air tight, convincing

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Speaker 1: and provable alibi that they had no choice but to

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Speaker 1: eventually drop the charges against him. However, it seems they

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Speaker 1: found your alibi to be penetrable enough to continue on

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Speaker 1: with this horrible frame job. And meanwhile, unbeknownst to you,

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Speaker 1: your sister and her husband were on their way to

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Speaker 1: Area three in full uniform. So then what happened?

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Speaker 2: They had taken me into a room. It was two

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Speaker 2: States attorney one I was a female, the other male,

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Speaker 2: and the two detectives Foley fol e Y and another

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Speaker 2: guy not quite sure.

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Speaker 1: And our audience will remember detective Foley from the awful

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Speaker 1: case of Sean Tyler and Reggie Henderson. So what happened

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Speaker 1: in this room?

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Speaker 2: To stop the beatings, in the torture, after being burned

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Speaker 2: and all that stuff, I agreed to make a statement.

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Speaker 2: And so they was preparing the statement. They said, we're

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Speaker 2: going we want you to put your initiues jag on

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Speaker 2: each sentence that we complete, and then we're gonna turn

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Speaker 2: it into the state's attorney to stop this ass whooping.

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Speaker 2: So at the ninety eighth hour, they going over prepping

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Speaker 2: me with the statement to sign. The door bust open

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Speaker 2: and with sodge and burned. He busted into the room

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Speaker 2: and he whispered something to the state's attorney leers that

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Speaker 2: this nigga got the military downstairs, and they asked a

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Speaker 2: lot of questions. There was my sister and a husband

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Speaker 2: with their uniforms on, and I later found out that

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Speaker 2: they was talking to John Burds at the time, and

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Speaker 2: so man Alaska and Panadeno, I think that's the name

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Speaker 2: that if I promound them right that came in. She

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Speaker 2: told him get his ass out of here and take

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Speaker 2: him down the other way and get him out of here,

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Speaker 2: and boomlegs for me find to sign the double murdered

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Speaker 2: confessions to stop the beating to snatching my ass up

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Speaker 2: and running me down the back stepth and throwing me

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Speaker 2: in the backseat of a car.

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Speaker 1: Which doesn't really sound like standard operating procedure for a

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Speaker 1: suspect and a double murder. Right, had as much sarcasm

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Speaker 1: to that as you possibly can, because I hope it

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Speaker 1: was dripping with it, and then I understand they just

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Speaker 1: took you home that.

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Speaker 2: They was like, we're gonna drop you off, so and

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Speaker 2: I told them it would take me in an alley, man,

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Speaker 2: drop me off in the back. I don't want no

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Speaker 2: motherfucker seeing me with y'all man, y'all be in and

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Speaker 2: there beating on me and shit. And now you're gonna

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Speaker 2: drop me off in front of my house, like y'all

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Speaker 2: my friend and shit, they might think I'm telling something.

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Speaker 2: So they dropped me off in the back of the house.

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Speaker 2: And as I was coming in the side dope at

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Speaker 2: my mother's house, my sister's coming in the front dough

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Speaker 2: and all of the kids in them. They read to

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Speaker 2: try to embrace me, but I had injuries I didn't

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Speaker 2: know I had on my body. So when they went

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Speaker 2: to grab me out, I broke down and my sister's like,

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Speaker 2: what's going on? Is wrong with you? And so that's

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Speaker 2: when me and my sister had a conversation about many

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Speaker 2: this is what they did to me, And so she

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Speaker 2: before I know it, she grabbed the phone and started

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Speaker 2: calling some military people and stuff, and they gave her

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Speaker 2: a phone number. The call she ended up calling down

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Speaker 2: into ops.

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Speaker 1: And OPS stands for Office of Professional Standards, which was

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Speaker 1: founded in the nineteen seventies to carry out independent investigations

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Speaker 1: of mounting allegations of police brutality.

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Speaker 2: I didn't notice at that time you can call the police.

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Speaker 2: On the police. My sister was like, man, they did this,

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Speaker 2: it's a gainst the law. I'm locking the ass up.

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Speaker 2: OPS ended up getting in the phone car. His name

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Speaker 2: was Ortiz or something like that. I say, man, they

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Speaker 2: beat my head of it. They say, man, can you identify?

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Speaker 2: I tell him on the name on the card, and

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Speaker 2: that what happened? Say, man, hold On almost sent a

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Speaker 2: cop to get.

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Speaker 1: You tomorrow, but as I understand it, there was another

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Speaker 1: car coming for you that night. It turns out that

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Speaker 1: the Midnight crew had also been working on Fernando Webb

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Speaker 1: and Eric Johnson, who had probably been made aware of

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Speaker 1: your alleged statement. What was in that statement.

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Speaker 2: The contest of the false statement after the ninety eight

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Speaker 2: hours a torture me and beat me and burning me

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Speaker 2: was that I was outside of the garage and seeing

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Speaker 2: Eric Johnson hand the gun to Bodine which is Falander

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Speaker 2: Web and committed the crime.

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Speaker 1: So the statement placed you as a witness even though

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Speaker 1: you hadn't seen anything, and it looked like Webb was

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Speaker 1: actually their target, at least at the time that you

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Speaker 1: gave your statement.

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Speaker 3: It's our perspective, based on the evidence that we reviewed,

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Speaker 3: that Fernando Webb, who was a heroin addict, had a

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Speaker 3: history of weapon offenses, a history of armed robberies, attempted murder,

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Speaker 3: and other violent crimes, was the person that committed this

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Speaker 3: double murder.

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Speaker 1: And as we so often see, somebody who's in a

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Speaker 1: position like Web was maybe tempted to trade false information

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Speaker 1: for leniency or even freedom. So what did his statement say?

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Speaker 2: That he was shooting heron and he was walking his

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Speaker 2: dog to go get him another fix a heron and

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Speaker 2: that he walked up to a guy with a gun

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Speaker 2: in his hand and he asked this guy with the

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Speaker 2: gun in his hand, man, what's up? And then he

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Speaker 2: got three blocks away in her gun shots? Did they

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Speaker 2: turn out identified the guy that he asked, what's up

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Speaker 2: with the gun in his hands? Peter Gun?

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Speaker 1: And it's unclear when this statement was made. Perhaps Webb

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Speaker 1: was even the original source of your nickname. Either way,

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Speaker 1: his false statement made James the shooter and completely removed

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Speaker 1: Web from culpability. No mention of Eric Johnson, by the way,

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Speaker 1: So what was in his statement?

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Speaker 3: Johnson made a statement to police that James Gibson told

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Speaker 3: him about his plans to rob Lloyd Benjamin, and that

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Speaker 3: James paid him fifty dollars to be on the lookout.

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Speaker 3: Johnson also said he saw James shoot and kill Benjamin.

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Speaker 3: This statement was false also because Johnson was tortured, threatened,

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Speaker 3: and beaten by Officer McCann, Caesar Bresca, Rusnick, Maslanka Palladino, and.

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Speaker 1: Burn Right, so obviously unreliable. But this false statement made

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Speaker 1: James the shooter once again, while keeping Johnson closely involved

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Speaker 1: enough to identify him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he said this the cats though, just the cats.

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Speaker 2: I want you to get this, he said. I paid

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Speaker 2: him to wats me to do a stick up because

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Speaker 2: I needed money to fix one of my disc able vehicles.

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Speaker 1: Right, if you needed to rob for that money, how

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Speaker 1: could you have paid him anything? It makes no sense. Plus,

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Speaker 1: nothing had been reported as taken from the victims. But

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Speaker 1: now they had two statements saying that you were the

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Speaker 1: shooter and Eric Johnson had allegedly named himself as your

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Speaker 1: accomplice and eventually Johnson's sisters, Carlos Smith and Janis Johnson

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Speaker 1: were dragged into this as well, so the midnight creup

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Speaker 1: came back to get you before ops could.

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Speaker 2: They came back and rearrested me a couple hours later,

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Speaker 2: once the complaints was fouled. When they came back and

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Speaker 2: got me the second time, they took me up to

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Speaker 2: another place on the third floor and they put me

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Speaker 2: in like a cage set in the middle of all

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Speaker 2: of their desses. And then I've seen them bringing in

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Speaker 2: Colin Smith and Janis Johnson and all the other stuff.

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Speaker 3: The officers used intimidation and lies in order to get

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Speaker 3: these two sisters to corroborate the story that Gibson killed

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Speaker 3: mister Benjamin and mister Wash And what the officers told

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Speaker 3: them based on what we know, is that they would

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Speaker 3: be light on their brother if they went along with

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Speaker 3: the story.

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Speaker 2: Janis Johnson said, I broke into the house and start

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Speaker 2: immediately sharing a robbery playing with our whole family.

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Speaker 3: So no witnesses from our perspective had any credibility, And.

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Speaker 2: Then ended up at the county jail in front of

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Speaker 2: the judge basket on the chief judge. They told me

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Speaker 2: you get out front of judge. Man, keep your motherfucking

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Speaker 2: hands behind your back. So when I went out in

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Speaker 2: front of the judge, I put my hands behind my

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Speaker 2: back and my left bridcase popped out of my chest.

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Speaker 2: When it popped out of my chest, I fell down

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Speaker 2: to the ground. Chef Judge basted on. He looked over

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Speaker 2: the bench and he said, what's going on? And out

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Speaker 2: of anger, I said, the motherfuckers they kicked me in

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Speaker 2: my chest, saithing wrong on my chest. I can't breathe

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Speaker 2: like what? And then the chief Judge turned over to

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Speaker 2: the bailiff the police. He said, where y'all just bring

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Speaker 2: it from? And then the turn he said, I bought

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Speaker 2: every three brought to me. He said what every three?

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Speaker 2: He told turn get the police, closed the door, lock

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Speaker 2: all the dopes and told the public finers, bring them

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Speaker 2: back in the back to my chamber. So when I

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Speaker 2: got back to the back of the chamber, there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of motions and arguing and shit going back

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Speaker 2: with the chief Judge and the public defending. The state's

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Speaker 2: attorney telling man, get your supervisor in and you get

334
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Speaker 2: your order, and you get a photography and and you

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Speaker 2: get them people to bring them in here and having

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Speaker 2: me shipped to Sirmac Hospital, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Wow, So the abuse was actually going to be documented.

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Speaker 1: It seems like this judge Bastone might have actually been

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Speaker 1: a decent person.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you say a decent person, uh.

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Speaker 1: I mean decency seems really hard to come by in

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Speaker 1: a story like yours.

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Speaker 2: Does bast don't save my life?

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Speaker 1: Man?

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Speaker 2: I'm different and different him recording and taking those photographs

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Speaker 2: of those injuries because they tried to destroy them, and

347
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Speaker 2: discovery he kept a copy if you want for us.

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Speaker 2: Bast don't having the courage the order to sign all

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Speaker 2: the photographs with his BADS number his next the photos

350
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,920
Speaker 2: wasn't revealed. From nineteen eighty nine to twenty fifteen, every

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Speaker 2: time I went in front of the judge, I was

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Speaker 2: actually my defense attorney about the police reports, the photographs,

353
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Speaker 2: the statements, the evidence, and he was telling me there

354
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Speaker 2: was no evidence, there was no statement, there was no

355
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Speaker 2: none of that.

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Speaker 1: And unfortunately, your trial was not going to be held

357
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Speaker 1: in front of Judge bass Stone, but instead a judge

358
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Speaker 1: named Nevills. So one can surmise that the photographic proof

359
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Speaker 1: of this brutality was now being hidden. But your public

360
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,600
Speaker 1: defender Paul Stroker, he didn't raise the issue.

361
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Speaker 2: No, no, my public offender was in on the fix,

362
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Speaker 2: as well as the judge, Neviles, and the state's attorney

363
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Speaker 2: and all the rest of them. But we got into

364
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Speaker 2: a dialogue about the pictures and the photos with the

365
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Speaker 2: judge and the trial to Spain, well, no, I'm not

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Speaker 2: the judge that would die there, etcetera, etcetera. And what

367
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Speaker 2: pictures you talk about and they never came into the trial.

368
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Speaker 1: I mean, your lawyer, you think he'd reach out to

369
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Speaker 1: Judge bass Stone, but that's just not what happened. And you, James,

370
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,960
Speaker 1: most of our guests wait until after they're convicted to

371
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,080
Speaker 1: learn the law, but you started in pre trial.

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Speaker 2: All the motions that was filed before trial and after trial,

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Speaker 2: and in trial, they was all motions that I found

374
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Speaker 2: pro saye. Every time I went in front of the judge,

375
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Speaker 2: I would Backdome, my lawyer, because we would have conversations

376
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Speaker 2: before we go in front of the judge about certain

377
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,520
Speaker 2: issues and he would tell me from bullshit, and then

378
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Speaker 2: we get out front of the judge. I would put

379
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Speaker 2: him on the front street and then the judge would

380
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 2: try to tell me some stuff, and then the state's

381
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 2: attorney tried to tempts up, but I had motions already

382
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Speaker 2: prepared to file on myself. But because I wasn't skilled

383
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,440
Speaker 2: in the expertise and criminal science of law at that time,

384
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,879
Speaker 2: I was trying to perfect and bring in my issues

385
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Speaker 2: as best I could.

386
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Speaker 1: But obviously you weren't going to be skilled enough yet

387
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Speaker 1: for the monster that you were trying to do battle with.

388
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Speaker 1: Right it was David versus Goliath for what we were

389
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Speaker 1: up against.

390
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Speaker 2: So I ended up having a conversation with attorney Timothy Nash,

391
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 2: which was a paid attorney for Eric Johnson, to try

392
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Speaker 2: to preserve some of those issues, and we ended up

393
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Speaker 2: having the motion hearing watch the rest is press to

394
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 2: Evanson's statement separately but together.

395
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Speaker 1: Meaning that both you and Eric Johnson had both been

396
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Speaker 1: severely beaten, that the statements were therefore clearly unreliable and

397
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,879
Speaker 1: should have been thrown out immediately, all while your lawyer was,

398
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, taking a nap.

399
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Speaker 2: And so what they did was they brought in all

400
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,440
Speaker 2: these declarated officers with their bags and their uniform zone

401
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,679
Speaker 2: and they puaded them in one by one to get

402
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 2: on the stand and say these guys aligned and we

403
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 2: never did a Y and Z, and so they denied

404
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,800
Speaker 2: Eric Johnson motion as being tortured, and they denied my motion, etc.

405
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 2: Then they split up the trial and rude that it

406
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 2: was antagonized defense because Eric Johnson never testified against me

407
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:40,119
Speaker 2: at trial.

408
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 1: All made possible by the ineffective assistance of your own lawyer,

409
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 1: whose strategy, from what I understand, was that since your statement,

410
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,200
Speaker 1: although false, wasn't incumplatory to you, but only the Eric Johnson,

411
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 1: he wasn't trying to contest it, but you were morally

412
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 1: bound to not falsely accuse Eric Johnson as well as

413
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,359
Speaker 1: exposed with these officers were doing so much good it

414
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 1: did at the time. Now, you took a bench trial, right,

415
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 1: So that was your attorney's idea. Huh.

416
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,120
Speaker 2: It was something that my attorney had convinced me, he said,

417
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 2: Man did he said, and they said, a white man

418
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,679
Speaker 2: got killed. Man. Do you take a jury trial? Man?

419
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,959
Speaker 2: They gonna put your ass on death roll? Man, He say, Man,

420
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 2: take a bitch trial, man, you can beat this man.

421
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,159
Speaker 2: He tried to convince me that judge never was a

422
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 2: law judge and that there was no physical, scientific evidence

423
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 2: to connect me to the case. There was no DNA,

424
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,679
Speaker 2: firemans and no murder weapon, et cetera, et cetera, no statement,

425
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 2: and none of that stuff. And so it was like

426
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 2: inlihood that once I tell the judge I'm not gonna

427
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 2: take a jury trial, he gonna throw the case out. Well,

428
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 2: just the catch, if I took a jury trial, the

429
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,879
Speaker 2: judge would throw the case out right there, because there

430
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,440
Speaker 2: would have been none to take to the jury to deliberate.

431
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 3: Emotion to suppress would have been filed, and the evidence

432
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Speaker 3: would have never made it into trial.

433
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 2: But I was so confused, cause my lawyer tell me, man,

434
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,879
Speaker 2: take a bitch trial. A white boy got killed and

435
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 2: all that shit. Boy, you're gonna go to death row.

436
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 2: I got scared in that moment, and I fumbled the

437
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 2: ball and took a bench trial.

438
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 1: And your trial began on October seventh, nineteen and even

439
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: though Eric Johnson refused to testify, it didn't matter. His

440
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: statement implicating you was read into the record. In addition,

441
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 1: despite Eric Johnson's refusal, the state was still able to

442
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 1: get his sisters, Carla Smith and Janis Johnson to testify

443
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,239
Speaker 1: that you had told them that you were going to

444
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 1: stick up the insurance man to get money to fix

445
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 1: your car.

446
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 2: They told me, if y'all will continue to lie and

447
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 2: say what y'all said against Dad Giffin, we'd lock in

448
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 2: y'all last up for obstructing to Justin Perdon. So once

449
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 2: they started lying, they had to keep lying. But all

450
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 2: the time Kyla not never had been over to her house.

451
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 2: Janis Johnson at the time that she said I was

452
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 2: on the back of her house. She had punched it.

453
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 2: She was at work.

454
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 1: And then they brought in Fernando Webb, who was at

455
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: that time serving a sentence for armed robbery in another case,

456
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,160
Speaker 1: and admitted that the prosecution had promised to free him

457
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: in exchange for his testimony.

458
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 3: These statements given by Eric Johnson, Fernando Webb, Carla, and

459
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 3: Janis were procured by torture, by intimidation, lies and false promise,

460
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 3: says buy the Chicago police.

461
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 1: And let's not forget about James's own alleged statement, which

462
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 1: was not inculpatory. I mean, essentially it's a false witness

463
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 1: statement implicating Eric Johnson. So in a last ditch effort

464
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 1: to seal the deal, the state presented an officer named Moser.

465
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 2: The States brought in officer Mosa to testify to a

466
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 2: statement that I Leslie made to him. But then I objected,

467
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 2: and the judge say, wait, you objective for I say,

468
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 2: because my lawyer ain't objected. Objection on He say, well,

469
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: what we objective? I say, because the State's goin to

470
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 2: bring out officer to testify AFT something they ain't got

471
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 2: no record of it. But now we're in the middle

472
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 2: of trial and you want to bring in a statement

473
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 2: from the office. Before we went to trial, we tried

474
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 2: to challenge these issues, but you want to let us

475
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 2: challenge it. My lawyer and filed me most of the chalices,

476
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 2: so just hold it. Wait, man, we're in the middle

477
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 2: of trial and you're gonna file most of the limited

478
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 2: to exclude the off test to the judge rule that

479
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 2: since I ain't never heard and nobody never challenged it,

480
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:51,679
Speaker 2: I can't deal with it in a vacuum. So I'm

481
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 2: gonna have to hear what they say, and then I

482
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 2: determined if I'll allowed it in or not after I

483
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 2: hear what it's saying.

484
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: So even though the original statement that they beat out

485
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 1: of you and tortured out of you was exculed, Platoria

486
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 1: Chicago PD produced one more false statement, the word of

487
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: this officer, no record of it in which you allegedly

488
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 1: incriminated yourself. Wow.

489
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 2: Just Nevers said on record, he said he didn't believe

490
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 2: that Filander were was telling the truth, that Janet Johnson

491
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 2: was telling the truth, the color whatever name is with

492
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 2: tending the truth, or even Air Johnson. That he didn't

493
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: believe no testimony or nobody other than that statement they

494
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,199
Speaker 2: said that Leslie made. And without that statement, he couldn't

495
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 2: find me guilty. But he had to find me guilty

496
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 2: because the police said I made that statement. He find

497
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:50,479
Speaker 2: the police credible and gave me natural life. I've been

498
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 2: educating myself from the criminal law for thirty four years.

499
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 2: I know everybody. I've worked on all the cases in

500
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 2: Stateville Panakamna. I was the warden's port. I used to

501
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 2: have to control in the run of the whole prison,

502
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 2: so I was able to file and maneuver for everybody.

503
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 2: And then when I was in the waters port, I

504
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 2: was the groundskeepers where the helicopters come in and all that.

505
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: When I wasn't that, I was the officer's kits and

506
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 2: worker cooked for the people. And then I was accounting,

507
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 2: so I had assets that other inmates couldn't have. I

508
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 2: had been fileding motions for Black's, vif's, Puerto Ricans, bdzones

509
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 2: vice laws.

510
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 3: James knows more about the law than ninety percent of

511
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 3: the lawyers that I know, and stayed safe in four

512
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 3: max prisons back then huge gang populations. You weren't safe

513
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 3: in those prisons. James was able to navigate those prisons

514
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 3: for one reason. Even though he feared for his life

515
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 3: every day, he was a legal resource. He worked with

516
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 3: the different factions in the prison, and that made him

517
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 3: a protected person. He didn't see the Michael Jordan years,

518
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 3: he didn't see the Oprah win for years. He didn't

519
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 3: see the election of Barack Obama. James Gibson spent his

520
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 3: time in the law library. Not only did James handle

521
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 3: his own appeals, James has helped hundreds of inmates in

522
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 3: Illinois and outside of Illinois with their cases.

523
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: I had been filed in motions for other guys, and

524
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: I started to come to understand that this is a

525
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 2: powder of the practice. I'm not the only one.

526
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: So with your knowledge of the law being such an

527
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: asset to everyone, you got to see kind of a

528
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 1: bird's eye view of the system, at least in Illinois,

529
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 1: while still keeping your eye on the prize in your

530
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: own case, Andrew, can you give us a bit of

531
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: a rundown on his appellate history.

532
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 3: He did file a timely appeal from the verdict. His

533
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 3: conviction was then affirmed by the appellate court, then denied

534
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 3: leave to appeal to the Illinois Supreme Court, as well

535
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 3: as petition of cerciority to the United States Supreme Court.

536
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 3: Later in court, as a jailhouse lawyer, filed several post

537
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 3: conviction petitions and a habeas corpus petition, all of which were.

538
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: Denied, which is obviously maddening considering all of the issues

539
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 1: we've raised. But in addition to his legal and social maneuvering,

540
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: James started a media campaign.

541
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 2: I was doing satellite radio from prison. I had wrote

542
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 2: ten thousand letters to the nation, and I had got

543
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 2: some momentum after Hugh Heffrom, the Great Hugh Heffrom the

544
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 2: Playboy magazine. They had did a story about us in

545
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 2: area too, and I had got a story ran with

546
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: Stevie j and Benzino at Hip Hop Weekly, and so

547
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 2: it started catching momentum. Once I wrote to the United

548
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 2: Nations and the United Nations responded, people started talking about

549
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 2: it all over the world. They formed into law the

550
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 2: Illinois Torture Relief Commission.

551
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 3: And this was an investigation around credible evidence related to

552
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 3: the allegations against John Burge and the Midnight Crew, and

553
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 3: they basically knew a lot of individuals black men were tortured, beaten,

554
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 3: made to confess the crimes they didn't commit.

555
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 2: And when they voted on the general symboli and the

556
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: letistations on the floor, they mentioned the James Gifton case

557
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: as the poet with the child for why we need

558
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: to go and investigate all these other cases.

559
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: So when you finally got around to review, what did

560
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: the commission find?

561
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: The initial summary was that they found that I had

562
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 2: been tortured and collaborated and sustained and substatinate those allegations.

563
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 3: And so James was given the opportunity by the Torture

564
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 3: Commission to have his case reviewed by the Circuit Court

565
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 3: of Cook County for what's called judicial review. And basically

566
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 3: James submitted forty six exhibits and over nine hundred and

567
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 3: fifty pages in support of his case. So he went

568
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 3: through that whole process which ultimately led to the judge

569
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 3: granting his Turk evidentiary hearing.

570
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: And then I found with the Torture Relief Commission saying

571
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: that man for decade, the CI Chicago, the governor, the mayor,

572
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: the state's attorney, the lawyers, the judges, the hospital, all

573
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 2: of them is paterck practice. They've been denying us basic

574
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: rights to do process the law. I don't want no money.

575
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: I just want my dead court, as a citizen of

576
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: the United States, to approve a Y and Z once

577
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 2: and all.

578
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: So what did you present? I mean, back in nineteen

579
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: ninety one, the court had taken this officer Moser's word

580
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: for it and set on record that all of the

581
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: other evidence was not credible. Then every appellate court had

582
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: upheld this conviction. So what finally turned the tide.

583
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 2: Well, what laid back to getting back in course was

584
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: John Burdens had called me in nineteen ninety in the

585
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: county jail after the complaints was fouled, and John Burgess

586
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: thought that he had intercepted and destroyed all of the communications.

587
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: So he was calling me to rub it in my

588
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: face and tell me, yeah, nigga, you ain't never getting

589
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 2: out of jail. No, complaints you fouled, nigga. Ain't no

590
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: motherfucker gonna believe that shit. I'm the commander. That shit

591
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 2: gone and you have a nice life, you lucky, and

592
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 2: get your asster death penny by, and he hung the

593
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: phone up. But he didn't know that one of the

594
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: motherfucker's ris complaints had got out in the mill. Ortiz

595
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: gave me that reference number. He mailed to fifty seven

596
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: thirty four South five and d to my mother's house.

597
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: Do you know what did? She put the letters in

598
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: a briefcase because she could identified and they found the

599
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: briefcase with the original complaints twenty some years later.

600
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: So birds thought he had destroyed all other copies and

601
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: evidence of your torture before calling you in jail to

602
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: kind of dunk on you and shove it in your face.

603
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: Bitch ass nigga, that's what he did. He said, Now

604
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: you're gonna try to take me down, bitch. I run

605
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: the hospital. He had got the photographs, he had got discovery,

606
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 2: he had got to the drugs, he got to the

607
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: States Attorney, got to the lawyers. But that one letter,

608
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: it made it out.

609
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: So wait, how did you manage to prove that this

610
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: phone call took place when.

611
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: I was going through my investigation. I told him about

612
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: the conversation. They told me we had the ability to

613
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 2: go back and get any phone call that came for

614
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: a messipality or a city official or a federal facility

615
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: for the last one hundred years. And I said what

616
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: I said, Well, that's a beautiful thing, and check it out.

617
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: He didn't call from his department. He went into the

618
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: OPS department to make that call. And that's what he

619
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 2: failed to realize as as smart ass didn't know that

620
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 2: he made the phone call ready, he made it from

621
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,479
Speaker 2: his office or enough office. He made it inside this building,

622
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: and they're not going to destroy that call. I didn't

623
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: know all that. So they actually went back and got

624
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: the original call once I told him around the date

625
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: and month didn't happen. They told me that slick shit out.

626
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: They might. Yeah, they thought they had me.

627
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 3: Then they thought James was lying when he talked about

628
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 3: the call from John Burge, and they went back and

629
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 3: checked the records and saw that that call was placed

630
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: and mister Gibson was being truthful.

631
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: So they're finally starting to come around. There was proof

632
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: of the complaint to OPS as well. As the phone

633
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: call from Birge. What about Judge Bastone's photographs that never

634
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: made it to trial?

635
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: Thank god for best One. He had kept a copy

636
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: and sign it and he had his archives as working

637
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: shit right on top of him filing the proper paperwork,

638
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 2: and they massed the signatures in his bass no more

639
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: on each one of the photographs. And that then they

640
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: was like what the hell is going on?

641
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: You know?

642
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: They on the other side, they're like, this kid is

643
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: really telling the truth. And that's when I started founding

644
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 2: out about hospital. Right for twenty five years, Sir mac hospital,

645
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: it was writing me back, Talbot, somebody misplaced your fil

646
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 2: somebody changed your file, somebody took this out through file.

647
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 2: They was writing me back with their smart self, telling

648
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: me in folds. For twenty years, I kept all that shit,

649
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: and I finally presented all my evidence to the court.

650
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: Of course they man, oh my god, they said, oh,

651
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 2: we ain't got to hit no move.

652
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: So Burges's medieval torture tactics had finally been exposed. But

653
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: what about all of his lackeys? Did they get dragged

654
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: in front of the Torture Relief Commission?

655
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: Is you reading in the summary report of the TRC.

656
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: The officers when they was asked about it, they threw

657
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 2: John Burdens under the bus and signed off. They told

658
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: Don Burdens said, told to do a.

659
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: Y and Z. So they admitted it. And then you

660
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: made your way back into the depellate process where you

661
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: were fighting an appointed special prosecutor in front of Judge

662
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: near A Walsh. So what did they do in an

663
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: actual court of law?

664
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: In my first hearing? And they pleaded the fifth They

665
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: wouldn't testify to anything. Did you arrest day GiB not

666
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,719
Speaker 2: plead the fifth? Did you torch the day goptil? I

667
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: used the cogopoyis opting to fil So they went asking

668
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: the questions and it just found that credible.

669
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: So, despite the explosive revelations of the Torture Relief Commission,

670
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: this judge still denied you, saying that there was quote

671
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: sufficient evidence to support that no torture occurred quote it's

672
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: unfucking real.

673
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: And then the pedicote overturned that shit again.

674
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: Send me back right. That was twenty eighteen when the

675
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: appellate court said that the officers could not rebut your

676
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: allegations in any meaningful way.

677
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: They had sent me back instructor Neil Wass to draw

678
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: an adverse in fearence and did reconsider all the evidence

679
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: as a whole, and she would open up the courtroom

680
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 2: to reconsider it.

681
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: So, get this, Walsh gave these reasons for her refusal,

682
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: that you had invented your torture claims to piggyback on

683
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: Eric Johnson's claims, which, by the way, ern Johnson a

684
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: new trial back in twenty twelve. And she made that

685
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: ruling with the knowledge that you had filed your complaint

686
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: on the night that you were released from custody back

687
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine. Just moronic. But she continued by

688
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: explaining away the pictures of your injuries that they could

689
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: have been made while you're in jail, or get this,

690
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: that they could have been self inflicted.

691
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: And then they instructed the Chief Jail to remove her,

692
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 2: order a new trial and throw out the statement, whether

693
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 2: it convicted me or not.

694
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: So finally, in March twenty nineteen, the Appellate Court called

695
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: Wash manifestly wrong while vacating your conviction.

696
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 2: Then the Supreme Court affirmed it with no dissension.

697
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: So then comes April twenty six, twenty nineteen, you had

698
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: a hearing about whether or not the state would retry you.

699
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: Well, I go in front of the jidgs. The lawyer's

700
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: coming in the back saying, man, you might get a

701
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 2: million dollar bond, but we don't know. After we had

702
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: to hear it, that jig said, mister Gibson, I'm so

703
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 2: sorry for this tragedy. Special prosecutor didn't wasted enough time.

704
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 2: Mister Gibson, how much money can you pay you? I say,

705
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 2: when I've been working inside the prison. He said, two

706
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 2: thousand dollars. I bond myself out the county jail. And

707
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 2: then two days later I got a call from special Prosecutor.

708
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 2: I dropped the child is in a cup of Hey,

709
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: if you don't challenge your certificate innocence.

710
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 1: And in Illinois, that's what you filed for to get

711
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: state compensation and pursue civil litigation. So really they were

712
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: just trying to minimize the financial damage, right.

713
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 2: So I told him that I'm gonna see you in

714
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 2: court tomorrow. I got a court He said, we got

715
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: good news and we got bad news. Which one do

716
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 2: you want to hear? And then I said, man, I

717
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: don't care what y'all got. Man, I'm ready to go

718
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: to court, let's do this, and they'd like be dropping

719
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 2: the charges and I said, that's good news because I

720
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 2: got a emotion for you, and they said, what motion

721
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: is that I got emotion? I'm gonna be ruing in

722
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 2: front of jugs after that to remove you. Then State's

723
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: Attorney Kim Fox was appointed, and then she did challenge

724
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 2: my certificate incence and I was granting a certificate insert right.

725
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: So between the time that these proceedings started in twenty nineteen,

726
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: Kim Fox, much needed new blood, was elected to the

727
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: State's Attorney's office in Cook County. So the charges were

728
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: finally dropped and you got your certificate of actual innocence

729
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 1: in February twenty twenty.

730
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 2: I mean, like I had been fighting and fighting and

731
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: fighting and fight, and that was my moment in twenty fifteen.

732
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 2: I knew I was coming up out of there, but

733
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 2: it just didn't. I didn't think it was take me

734
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 2: that long after I got my first reversal. What I'm saying,

735
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 2: I thought the issue was cutting dry. But this judge,

736
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 2: Neil Wasp, she took me through a bunch of exra

737
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 2: mode years for nothing.

738
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: Which is just absolutely unforgivable. Just as unforgivable as the

739
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: obstinates you're now facing in civil litigation.

740
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 3: Mister Gibson filed the federal civil rights lawsuit that's been

741
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 3: pending against the City of Chicago and the officers who

742
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 3: beat tortured him, I mean James Gibson. They took him

743
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 3: at twenty three. He didn't come out till he was

744
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 3: fifty three years old, and they're still fighting him today.

745
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 3: The City of Chicago and the law firms representing the

746
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 3: City of Chicago, their entire approach for the past four

747
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 3: years has been relitigating the criminal case and pointed to

748
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 3: James as a murderer, and what does a certificate of

749
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 3: innocence mean? He is factually innocent by every single tribunal.

750
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 3: The certificate of innocence is a significant review of the evidence,

751
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 3: the facts, the law. And so to me, the notion

752
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 3: that the city fights plaintiffs whose lives have been ruined

753
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 3: when they have a certificate of innocence is it's unimaginable.

754
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 3: James is still waiting for his day in court on

755
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 3: the civil case, and after four years of costly litigation

756
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 3: of city has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to

757
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 3: outside defense law firms litigating on behalf of the City

758
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 3: of Chicago and officers, whether it's John Burge, Ron d Watts,

759
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 3: Rinaldo Guevera, racist officers who took away the lives and

760
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 3: liberty of black men, Hispanic men who have been tortured, convicted,

761
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 3: spent decades in custody, and the City of Chicago, even

762
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 3: under the current Mayor, Brandon Johnston, are still relitigating the

763
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 3: underlying criminal case and wasting taxpayer money and torturing again

764
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 3: in the litigation system, people like James Gibson.

765
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 1: I mean, it makes exactly zero fucking sense. Whose face

766
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: are they saving? The individual officers, those scumbags, the state,

767
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: the system, the cats out of the bag. And it's

768
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: not like they're saving money when they're paying all of

769
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: these private defense firms way more than a settlement could

770
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: even cost, right, but yet they continue.

771
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 3: James Gibson is going to be a catalyst for change.

772
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 3: James Gibson has the only case that is currently pending

773
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,800
Speaker 3: that has what's called a non bifurcated maneal claim a

774
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 3: monell claim, as you know, is a pattern in practice.

775
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: So James's case is not just about the injuries to

776
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 3: him and the wrongful conviction and the torture and the beatings.

777
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 3: James Gibson's case has manel allegations that prove that the

778
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 3: city of Chicago had a pattern and practice of abusing

779
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 3: black men for decades. And so as we move forward

780
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 3: towards trial in twenty twenty four, James Gibson is not

781
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 3: just fighting for himself. He's fighting for justice for every

782
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 3: other black and a space man or woman who sustained

783
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 3: abuse by the Chicago police.

784
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: And that might very well be the motivation in fighting

785
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: him so hard. So God speed now, James. While you've

786
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 1: been home fighting your civil case, you've also been continuing

787
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: the work you were doing inside.

788
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 2: I still been continuing my advocacy, working my foundation, Clarence

789
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 2: James Gets the Foundation, James Grant Consulting. I've been up

790
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 2: to bringing my brother's home for prison commutations, post convictions.

791
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 2: If for please time cuts. I just brought a guy

792
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: home last week after twenty one years I've been working

793
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 2: in this case, James Freeman. I brought home dozens of guys.

794
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: That's what I do to see Chicago since two thousand

795
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,439
Speaker 2: and five, one point nine billion thousand settlements of five

796
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 2: right now sitting with twenty one cases pending in the

797
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 2: federal court lawsuits.

798
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: That's what I do, and that's not all you do.

799
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,479
Speaker 2: Since I've been home, I formed my own publishing company

800
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 2: because I got a book deal in the movie deal.

801
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 2: I got this music studio in Skokie, Illinois called three

802
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 2: Z Music House, and I brought in a bunch of

803
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 2: people to help me build silent rooms, soundproof rooms and designs.

804
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 2: You could go on my websits and see it. And

805
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: so what I do is I bring in all other

806
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 2: young people went to my studio and they found out

807
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 2: they read my stress. They make you your mother was deaf,

808
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 2: And so I tell him, yes, I share a lot

809
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 2: of letters. And so they take my letters and they

810
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 2: rewrite them, and then they go on to the booth.

811
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 2: And it might be a rap song, it might be

812
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 2: a country stong, it might be an R and B song.

813
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,919
Speaker 2: My number one song right now has broke the top

814
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: forty chart. The song is a letter to my mother, Mama,

815
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: can you hear me? And there's a promise that I

816
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 2: keep to her. Every year I go to a different

817
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 2: notion around the world and I meet with her for

818
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: five minutes. I'm just having a conversation with my mother

819
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 2: if I could.

820
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: Well, that's beautiful. So how can our audience follow along

821
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: with everything you're doing.

822
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: You can log on by I am James Gibson dot

823
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: com on Instagram to James Gibson six thirty five, or

824
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 2: you can go on James Gibson Facebook page, or you

825
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 2: can go into my YouTube channel where I go around

826
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 2: the world and I fight inj justicis and I highlight

827
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 2: all my consultant and publishing work. It's called James Gibson

828
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 2: on the Land.

829
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: All right, well, we're gonna have all that length to

830
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 1: check it out and get involved follow this incredible man's journey.

831
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 1: And now I want to turn to closing arguments, my

832
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: favorite part of the show. So let's start with Andrew. Andrew,

833
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: just feel free to just spout off on anything you

834
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: think may have been left unsaid, and then hand the

835
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 1: microphone off to James, and James you take us off

836
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: into the sunset.

837
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 3: You know, I spent twenty years representing pro athletes. I

838
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: started Action ten years ago to serve black and brown

839
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,439
Speaker 3: people whose rights have been violated by the police. I'm

840
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 3: humbled in honor to represent James Gibson because of what

841
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 3: he endured and listen, I can't imagine thirty years in

842
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 3: prison and most people would not persevere. James Gibson has

843
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 3: turned his pain, his faith in God into true purpose

844
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 3: in advancing civil rights in America, especially for black and

845
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 3: brown individuals. And James Gibson's going to change the game.

846
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 3: He's going to change the game for wrongfully convicted people

847
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 3: across the country.

848
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 2: Well, I was the first twenty twenty three, and I

849
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,879
Speaker 2: officially closed my case man, after thirty four years, man,

850
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 2: and none that's left to be said, Man, bring closure.

851
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 2: I just want to say that I believe that man,

852
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: it's okay to be different. Man. You know what I'm saying.

853
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 2: I believe that we're living in a time that man,

854
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: that was written about long ago, man, and to where

855
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 2: the people learned to love that which created love, and

856
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 2: then we'll get out of this mess in which weed.

857
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

858
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,399
Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

859
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on

860
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team, Connor

861
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as my fellow executive

862
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliburn. The music

863
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated

864
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all

865
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: social media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrong

866
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: for Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram at

867
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: it's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava

868
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one