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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephan

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Speaker 1: Never Told You production of iHeartRadio. And it's time for

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Speaker 1: another edition of Female First, which means we are once

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Speaker 1: again joined by the wonderful, the magnificent, the fabulous Eve.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Eve, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Happy to be here and as always, happy for that

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Speaker 3: very grand introduction.

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Speaker 1: I like doing a grand introduction, and I feel like

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Speaker 1: today we are. We're coming in various energies. We've got

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Speaker 1: Samantha whose has sort of a tough, annoying morning.

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Speaker 4: Perhaps it's just one of those like human error days

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Speaker 4: where I'm mad at everything. It turns out it's my fault,

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Speaker 4: so I'm even madder because I can't make sense of things.

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Speaker 4: So it's it's a double whammy. But it's okay because

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Speaker 4: it's Annie's birthday that the day we're recording, So happy birthday.

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Speaker 3: Birthday, Annie, thank you, thank you, and I get to

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Speaker 3: talk with you all, even.

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Speaker 1: Though I just had a very fun conversation about the

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Speaker 1: kei we fruit and continents and how nice it is

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Speaker 1: to have days where you can do nothing.

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Speaker 2: It was lovely. So it's been a lovely start to

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Speaker 2: my birthday.

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Speaker 3: So what would you describe your energy ass Yeah, right now, Annie,

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Speaker 3: if hers is aggressively annoying.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's it's the intersection of anxious and goofy, very

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Speaker 1: goofy energy. Because I've been up and I've been trying

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Speaker 1: to like get stuff done, and then I've been like,

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Speaker 1: but I could watch Star Wars Zone, So it's like

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Speaker 1: a weird it's like a work day. So trying to

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Speaker 1: balance that out. And I was telling you, I don't

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Speaker 1: get contacted by this many people often, and it's great,

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Speaker 1: like that's it's so nice to have people that care

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Speaker 1: about you or they like no know you and they

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Speaker 1: send you puns and gifts and all this stuff. But

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Speaker 1: it's also like every time I get a notification, I'm

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Speaker 1: such a anxious person. I'm like, something's as terrible as happened. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I feel like that that kind of intersection, that's

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Speaker 1: where that's where I am okay.

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Speaker 2: Solid place to be.

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Speaker 3: What about you, Eves, I am at once tired and also.

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Speaker 2: Pleasant.

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Speaker 3: I was trying to figure out a where for it

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Speaker 3: because like, I feel okay, but you know, I'm still

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Speaker 3: I'm a little there's like some tiredness sitting to me somewhere.

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Speaker 3: It's cool though, because I'm going to take a nap.

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Speaker 3: You know, then I think the people know that I'm

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Speaker 3: here for a nap.

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Speaker 2: So I love that.

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Speaker 1: I love it. I love it too. I love it

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Speaker 1: through We were just talking about you had so many

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Speaker 1: good quotes. We need to start writing gun quotes about

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Speaker 1: like your your Friday, and I was.

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Speaker 2: Like, don't take my Friday from me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want it Friday to be by yours.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this Friday for me, I'm not doing anything, so

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Speaker 3: I need it for myself.

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Speaker 2: I need to be by myself. Mm hmm. And that's

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Speaker 2: how it's going to be nice.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that is nice.

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Speaker 2: It's important. It's very important.

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Speaker 1: Yes. Well thanks, it's always for taking the time to

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Speaker 1: join us. I have to say this story was fascinating,

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Speaker 1: but I am very eager for you to help me

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Speaker 1: understand it because it was like a lot going on

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Speaker 1: in this Yeah.

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Speaker 2: There is.

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Speaker 3: So Today we're talking about Lean Hi Yeen and Lin

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Speaker 3: hy Yeen was an architect. She often you might see

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Speaker 3: her named Phyllis in certain sources, because she did go

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Speaker 3: by the name Phyllis at times English speaking company. She

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Speaker 3: was the first female architect in modern China, and she

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Speaker 3: and her husband Leong Shuchang, they created the first systematic

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Speaker 3: history of Chinese architecture. And her husband is the one

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Speaker 3: who's often highlighted in conversations about this period of architecture

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Speaker 3: because he's considered the father paternalism and patriarchy point of

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Speaker 3: modern architecture in China. But the two of them were married,

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Speaker 3: so their story is very interlinked, and I think the

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Speaker 3: complexity of their story has to do with that because

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Speaker 3: so many of their accomplishments were done together. And that's

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Speaker 3: not done in a way of detracting from Lean's legacy,

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Speaker 3: because hers is part of it. It's just that Leong

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Speaker 3: did a lot too, and a lot of their work

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Speaker 3: was together. So in times, in looking back at her

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Speaker 3: biography and the course of their history together, she was

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Speaker 3: not as recognized as he was as often as the case.

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Speaker 3: But unlike other cases and other cases we see this

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Speaker 3: kind of story, It's like there is a man and

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Speaker 3: the woman who did a lot of integral work, and

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Speaker 3: whatever their discovery or accomplishment was, they weren't related. They

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Speaker 3: weren't partnered in any sort of romantic or way other

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Speaker 3: than their work. So the woman's work will get buried.

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Speaker 3: But in this case, it's just a matter of how

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Speaker 3: things work when it came to gender, who gets recognized

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Speaker 3: and who's doing the writing of the history, and he did. Actually,

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Speaker 3: they both had their own accomplishment, separately and together.

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Speaker 2: So that is part of Lin Huyin's story.

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Speaker 3: And her story goes back to the early nineteen hundreds

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Speaker 3: because she was born in June of nineteen oh four

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Speaker 3: in Honjo, China. Her father was Lin chog Mien. He

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Speaker 3: was a scholar, an activist and a politician. She didn't

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Speaker 3: see how much when she was a young child because

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Speaker 3: he was away overseas for a period, but her family

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Speaker 3: was well off and prominent, so that wasn't too big

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Speaker 3: of a deal for too long because she was able

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Speaker 3: to travel as well. She had access to a lot

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Speaker 3: of educational resources, and her father, being the prominent person

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Speaker 3: that he was and the person who was interested in

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Speaker 3: politics internationally and in China, had a lot of privilege

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Speaker 3: and resource. They were well resourced. So she went to

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Speaker 3: the Peihua Girls High School that was established by the

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Speaker 3: Church of England, and when her father was overseas, she

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Speaker 3: moved to Europe with him. When she was in high school,

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Speaker 3: and she went to Saint Mary's College in London. Her

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Speaker 3: father put a really strong emphasis on her education, so

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Speaker 3: he was all about her learning and not just learning

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Speaker 3: in the classroom, learning through the world, teaching her things

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Speaker 3: in that way. So she was very hands on and

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Speaker 3: working with him and him raising her up to think

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Speaker 3: about her own education and what she was capable of

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Speaker 3: in that way in England is often talked about in

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Speaker 3: her story. She had a brief romance with the Chinese

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Speaker 3: poet Hu Gimo that was around nineteen twenty to nineteen

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Speaker 3: twenty two, and he was like seven years older than her,

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Speaker 3: so there's a whole kerfuffle, like a scandal basically around

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Speaker 3: the fact that he was married to someone already when

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Speaker 3: he was like ooh, like I'm really liking Lin Hui Yin,

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Speaker 3: and he ended up divorcing his first wife, supposedly because

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Speaker 3: he wanted to be with Lian, but that ended when

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Speaker 3: Lean went back to China. Her father was not having it.

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Speaker 3: Her father was like, this man is married. This is

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Speaker 3: also not the man for you, because we already have.

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Speaker 2: Someone in mind.

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Speaker 3: And that man was the person who would end up

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Speaker 3: becoming her husband, and that is Leang Sichang.

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Speaker 4: So.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen twenty four, Lean enrolled at the Universe of

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Speaker 3: Pennsylvania along with her to be husband Leong and his father,

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Speaker 3: was also a politician and a scholar, Leon chichaw So.

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Speaker 3: The curriculum at the University of Pennsylvania and its architecture

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Speaker 3: program was based on the Acole de Bouzar in Paris.

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Speaker 3: That was a school that was associated with a style

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Speaker 3: of architecture popular in France at the time. Leon got

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Speaker 3: a bachelor's there and later a master's degree in architecture.

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Speaker 3: But Lean, on the other hand, she majored in fine

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Speaker 3: arts because women couldn't enroll in the architectural program there

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Speaker 3: at the time. That said, she skirted the rules and

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Speaker 3: found the loopholes as people who want to bend the

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Speaker 3: rules and are trying to find their way and things do.

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Speaker 3: She took courses in architecture still and she taught architectural design,

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Speaker 3: so she was still able to get an education that

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Speaker 3: allowed her to learn about architecture and find a career

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Speaker 3: pass in it. So she made good use of her

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Speaker 3: time there and she was invested in educating people in

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Speaker 3: China and around the world about historic buildings in China,

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Speaker 3: Lean said in a nineteen twenty five interview with the

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Speaker 3: Philadelphia Public Ledger, quote, I dream of the homes. I'm

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Speaker 3: going to build real homes with children and gardens, goldfish,

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Speaker 3: kittens and puppy dogs, Chinese spirit and modern strength.

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Speaker 2: So you'll see a lot throughout the course.

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Speaker 3: Of Lien and Leong's story that they were very invested

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Speaker 3: in the preservation of Chinese buildings, Chinese structures and architecture

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Speaker 3: and design, and including that as things were becoming more new,

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Speaker 3: there was a lot of emphasis on these international styles,

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Speaker 3: and they really wanted to make sure that they were

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Speaker 3: forefronting Chinese design and tradition at the same time that

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Speaker 3: these new principles were coming in and co mingling with them.

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Speaker 3: But Lean had this whole other track in her story

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: I guess where you.

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Speaker 3: Talked about all these different things going on in the story, Annie,

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Speaker 3: and one of those was also her writing and her

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Speaker 3: interest in other arts. But it all does make sense

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Speaker 3: because Lean herself from an early age had an interest

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Speaker 3: in the art side of things and also the technology

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Speaker 3: side of things, So then it makes sense that she

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Speaker 3: became interested in architecture, and through her travels she was

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Speaker 3: able to see in Europe all this different architecture when

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Speaker 3: she was young and gained an interest in it, and

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Speaker 3: so that translated to stage designs. She went to Yale

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Speaker 3: University to study stage design in nineteen twenty seven and

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Speaker 3: was able to be involved from that way where she

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Speaker 3: was still moving things around, interested in design and the

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Speaker 3: way things looked, in the way that sets looked.

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Speaker 2: So that's what she went there for.

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Speaker 3: And in nineteen twenty eight she married Leong Sachang in Canada.

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Speaker 3: They eventually had two children. So after the two of

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Speaker 3: them they got married, they went to visit several countries

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Speaker 3: around Europe, and so they both had this interest in architecture,

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Speaker 3: so it was kind of a double thing. It was

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Speaker 3: a honeymoon for them, but it was also them getting

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Speaker 3: to see a bunch of architectural design while they were there,

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Speaker 3: so they were seeing a lot of the things that

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Speaker 3: they had studied when they were in school. After their

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Speaker 3: time in Europe, they went back to China and along

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Speaker 3: with some other colleagues, they founded the Department of Architectural

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Speaker 3: Engineering at Northeastern University in Shanyanan. Leong and his colleagues

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Speaker 3: also soon formed a practice, with Lian being a kind

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Speaker 3: of informal partner. All the other colleagues who had begun

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Speaker 3: teaching there, who they had already known, who had come

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Speaker 3: over from the US that they had met, were men.

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Speaker 3: But obviously Lean was also still very involved in this,

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Speaker 3: so yeah, she was also a writer. She published poems,

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Speaker 3: short stories, and plays. And Lien and Leong were educated

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Speaker 3: in the BuzAr system, but in the early nineteen thirties

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Speaker 3: they began regularly exploring China looking for old wooden buildings,

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Speaker 3: and they became committed to modern architecture as well. According

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Speaker 3: to Harold Kalman in the article Chinese Spirit and Modern Strength,

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Speaker 3: Lean Sachang Lin huiin and Early Modernist Architecture in China,

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Speaker 3: Leong Quote was the more dedicated scholar, while Lien Quote

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Speaker 3: showed a greater enthusiasm for architectural design and was the

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Speaker 3: more creative of the two. The author also said in

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Speaker 3: that article that the couple's son Quote believes that the

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Speaker 3: majority of the buildings traditionally ascribed to Leon actually came

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Speaker 3: from the hand of Lien. That author also, and explaining

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Speaker 3: their work, that they didn't adhere to Western modernism, and

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Speaker 3: for them, modernism was about a return to order a

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Speaker 3: quote reconciliation of Chinese tradition and Western innovation that was

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Speaker 3: tempered by rational Boozar principles. So the two of them

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Speaker 3: were fusing those things together. And also the way that

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Speaker 3: they were working together really seemed to be in a

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Speaker 3: supplementary fashion, to where a lot of the history and

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Speaker 3: the way that things were attributed to them may have

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Speaker 3: made it seem like Leng was the one who was

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Speaker 3: more so responsible for the design, but it seemed like

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Speaker 3: Lian actually had a very integral hand in the design

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Speaker 3: of the works that they created together. So all the

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Speaker 3: while they're doing this architectural design together. By the early

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Speaker 3: nineteen thirties, Lien had also become well known in the

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Speaker 3: literary world as a poet, an essayist, and a short

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Speaker 3: story writer, and she was also gathering writers and other

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Speaker 3: intellectuals in these salons that she would have. It seemed

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Speaker 3: to be also another thing that she liked to do,

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Speaker 3: and she was a member of literary groups like the

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Speaker 3: Beijing School, which was a collection of modernist writers, and

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Speaker 3: in a literary society called the Crescent Moon Society. She

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Speaker 3: moved to Beijing in nineteen thirty and then Leon moved

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Speaker 3: there a year after she did. And around that same time,

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Speaker 3: in the early nineteen thirties, they met the American couple

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Speaker 3: Wilma and John Fairbank. I mentioned them because they became

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Speaker 3: pretty close friends and they corresponded with each other for

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Speaker 3: the rest of Lean's life, like for a really long time,

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Speaker 3: and so they were pretty close. And the work that

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Speaker 3: they did later to uncover some of their works and

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Speaker 3: share it with people was important in the preservation of

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Speaker 3: their li legacy too. But yeah, Lan and Lyon would

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Speaker 3: travel to these remote places. They would walk, they would

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Speaker 3: go buy mule, and they would go by rickshaw and

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Speaker 3: all these different modes of transportation and to get to

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Speaker 3: the places that they needed to get to because they

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Speaker 3: were so remote, they squeezed themselves into these dirty rooms

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Speaker 3: and potentially dangerous places.

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Speaker 2: They talked about things.

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Speaker 3: Like bedbugs and all these other hazards being in the

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Speaker 3: places they would go to to find and learn more

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Speaker 3: about Chinese architectures. One of their most notable discoveries happened

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Speaker 3: in nineteen thirty seven when they dated and cataloged Fogwans

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Speaker 3: or the Temple of Buddha's Light in shaun Sea Province

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Speaker 3: that was built in eight hundred and fifty seven CE,

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Speaker 3: so at the time it was known the oldest known

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Speaker 3: building in China, and since then, though older structures have

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Speaker 3: been found, it's still considered one of the oldest surviving

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Speaker 3: win in structures in China. So I just think about

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Speaker 3: them traveling to all these different places, it seems like

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Speaker 3: a pretty adventurous life. Not to say that adventure only

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Speaker 3: means like the fun kind of adventure, because war was

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Speaker 3: also part of their story. Japan invaded China in the

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Speaker 3: Second Sino Japanese War which started in nineteen thirty seven,

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Speaker 3: and that conflict drove them out of the big cities

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Speaker 3: like Beijing and Nanjing, and they ended up moving around

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Speaker 3: the country to smaller cities to escape the conflict. They

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Speaker 3: moved to a village after other places, but at a

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Speaker 3: certain point they moved to a village called li Jhuang

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Speaker 3: in southwest China. That was in nineteen forty and while

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Speaker 3: in that village, Lean designed the only home that they

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Speaker 3: ever built for themselves near Kumming, But in li Juang,

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Speaker 3: they didn't have the best experience there and they were

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Speaker 3: living near poverty. So a lot of the buildings that

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Speaker 3: have been attributed to Leong.

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Speaker 2: Solely.

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Speaker 3: Lien also had a hand in designing. One of the

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Speaker 3: buildings that she helped with is a railway station in

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Speaker 3: Julen that she designed in nineteen twenty eight, and also

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Speaker 3: a geology building and a women's dorm at Peking University.

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Speaker 3: She also co wrote the book A History of Chinese

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Speaker 3: Architecture with Leon. After the war in nineteen forty five,

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Speaker 3: Leong went to the US for work, while Lean stayed

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Speaker 3: in China with the rest of the family, and eventually

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Speaker 3: she and Leong began working at Qinghuan University in Beijing,

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Speaker 3: and they designed the national emblem of China as well

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Speaker 3: as the Monument to People's Heroes that sent Tianaman Square.

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Speaker 3: But they were at odds with the fact that the

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Speaker 3: regime wanted to tear down the old There was a

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Speaker 3: lot of demolition and tearing down of these old structures,

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Speaker 3: while Lean and Leon knew how important it was to

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Speaker 3: preserve old structures and tradition. So Lean ended up dying

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Speaker 3: of tuberculosis on April first, nineteen fifty five, when she

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Speaker 3: was just fifty one years old. Her niece Maya Len

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Speaker 3: designed the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington later and Wilma

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Speaker 3: Fairbank and Lean Ju, who was Lean's second wife, put

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Speaker 3: together a book of their visual and written work called

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Speaker 3: A Pictorial History of Chinese Architecture, which was published in

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty four, and there was also a CCTV documentary

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Speaker 3: about the couple's life their work that came out that

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00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,280
Speaker 3: can be watched on YouTube now that goes into detail

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Speaker 3: about the context of the architecture, what it meant for

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Speaker 3: them to do this work that wasn't being done in

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Speaker 3: a lot of ways of preserving and finding Chinese architecture

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Speaker 3: at a time when these international standards and ideals were

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Speaker 3: being spread around the world, but also really taking hold

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Speaker 3: in China as well. That is the story of lin Huii.

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Speaker 2: I feel like a lot.

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Speaker 1: Of times one when we do these, we come out

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Speaker 1: and say this should be like this should be a

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Speaker 1: mini series, and I think it should be.

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Speaker 2: I think great.

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Speaker 1: But also I do love when people have these like

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Speaker 1: multifaceted interests because that totally makes sense, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of times we mistakenly put

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Speaker 1: what we view as like maybe a more technical thing, like.

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Speaker 2: It's not creative, like it isn't related to art or

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Speaker 2: something like that.

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Speaker 1: I did that for a while when I first started

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Speaker 1: and I was editing, I thought I was gonna hate it.

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Speaker 1: So technically she can be really creative in how you

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Speaker 1: do something like that. There is creativity in that, and

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Speaker 1: so I love it that we got to see, We

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Speaker 1: got to see that she did those things, She did

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Speaker 1: all of these different things, and that you brought that

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Speaker 1: to us because that is a part of how she

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Speaker 1: was creating and how she was thinking.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and they were all intermingled too, because she, you know,

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Speaker 3: her written work was also related to her architectural work

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Speaker 3: and the things that were happening in her life, so

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Speaker 3: it wasn't like they were two distinctly separate things. Her

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00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,119
Speaker 3: writing and obviously her the stage design that she was

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Speaker 3: learning about on the drama side, and then also the buildings.

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Speaker 3: Also just in general thinking about architecture as an artistic form,

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00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 3: it is all those things that we were just talking

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Speaker 3: about happen in structures and thinking about her being involved

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Speaker 3: in designing a building for a dormitory where students are

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Speaker 3: creating and able to come to these places and learn

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Speaker 3: in the ways that she did. It is also I

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Speaker 3: think pretty like cool to think about yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I before this, when sam Anthem was having her

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00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,200
Speaker 1: tough time, we were talking about like the human nature

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Speaker 1: of you know, struggling over something and wanting to break something.

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Speaker 1: I had to take a set design class and an architecture.

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Speaker 2: Cost and there were just so many things you have to.

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Speaker 1: Think about that I was like, of course, of course

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Speaker 1: I should think about that, but I've never had to.

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Speaker 1: And I was so, yeah, I gotta get these angles, right,

354
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Speaker 1: I gotta think about those. I gotta think about this.

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Speaker 1: So it is, and you're right, it's fun to think

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00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 1: about it in that way that she was creative, but

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Speaker 1: she's also allowing for people to come to spaces to

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Speaker 1: be creative by making these things and making them well.

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Speaker 1: But also one of my big the things that I

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Speaker 1: said at the top, when I was very excited for

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00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: you to come and elucidate things, is that I did

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00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 1: get confused because her husband, in some sources I would

363
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 1: read it made it sound like he did the whole thing,

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Speaker 1: and then yes, so I just got really like, way, wait,

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Speaker 1: And that's the importance of you know, people who were

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Speaker 1: doing the work and writing the history and doing it

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Speaker 1: well and doing it giving people the accolades they deserve

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Speaker 1: and the story telling the story in a way that

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00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 1: it gives them what they deserve. Because I really I

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00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: got so confused. I was like, wait, what, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: That in some instances to it seems like it was

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00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 3: a matter of what women could even have be attributed

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Speaker 3: to them. So it was a matter of what society

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00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 3: deemed acceptable, and it wasn't just a nefarious neglect of

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00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 3: attributing things to her. It was like, well, we can't

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Speaker 3: say you're a partner in this operation. You're a woman,

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00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 3: this agreements friend to me, so you know, we can't

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00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 3: say that, but you know she was.

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Speaker 2: And I think over.

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00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 3: Time our understanding of that through the discovery and uncovering

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00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 3: of their work, through people like the Fairbanks and their

382
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 3: children and their children's children and nieces and things like

383
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 3: that to be able to talk about it, and the

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00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 3: work of other scholars and researchers to understand how much

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00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 3: of a hand Lean actually did have in it, even

386
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Speaker 3: though her name may have been purposely left off of

387
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 3: documentation and record keeping because of the standards of the day.

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00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 3: So I think that's being rectified in real time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's wonderful to see you, but it's also

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00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: kind of fascinating. Like I wonder if you, you know,

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00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: have the eye for it, how you can be like,

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Speaker 1: even if her name is not on it, you're like, no,

393
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 1: she she was behind us or something like that. But yeah,

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00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: I also think it's a great reminder of both the

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00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 1: importance of context and always wondering about your sources, just never.

396
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 2: Taking things for granted. It's always a good remind yea.

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Speaker 4: So she now called them mother of architects. As we

398
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 4: have the father, we should have the mother.

399
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe do you think we should do that, Samantha, Shit, we.

400
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 4: Call her the mother something?

401
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 2: The parents?

402
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 4: Can we just call them.

403
00:24:52,119 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 2: Parents like that? The parents of modern architect sure in China.

404
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 4: Chinese are Yeah, And it's so funny. We actually talked

405
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 4: about the niece and because I was like, this name

406
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 4: sounds familiar, why am I like? And then I was like, oh, yeah,

407
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 4: we briefly mentioned.

408
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 3: Her, yeah, bab yeah yeah, so she followed in the footsteps.

409
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and her niece's work is awesome, Like you start

410
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 4: looking at the context and then the love like cross

411
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 4: cultural love and activism that they both yeah shared, It

412
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 4: is kind of it's nice to see.

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00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that just keeps going exactly yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. That did also add to my confusion though, because

415
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, a lot of people were talking

416
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: about this niece, just trying to get to this story,

417
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: what's going on? But no, it's what's really cool. So

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Speaker 1: thank you Eaves as always for illuminating us and bringing

419
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 1: this to us and just hanging out. It's always sad

420
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: to like to see you. You're welcome, Yes, always get

421
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 1: to be here. Yes, I look forward to next time.

422
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, where can the good listeners find you?

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00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 3: You can find me on Instagram at not apollog. You

424
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 3: can also just go to my website, which is Eve's

425
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 3: jeffcot dot com. That's spelled y v E s j

426
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 3: E F F C O A t dot com and

427
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 3: you can get to all the other things from there.

428
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 3: You could also hear me on many previous episodes of

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00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 3: Sminty on femail first talking about other women in history.

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00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 2: Who had long and storied lives.

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00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: Yes, well, I hope you get your nap and you

432
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: have your Friday.

433
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yes, we're in your corner.

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Speaker 1: And listeners, if you'd like to contact us, you can

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00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: Our email is stuff Media Mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.

436
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at most Stuff podcast,

437
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff.

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Speaker 2: I've Never told you.

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Speaker 1: We have a tea public store and we have a book.

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Speaker 1: You can get it Stuff You should read books dot com.

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Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, our executive

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Speaker 1: producer Maya, and our contributor Joey.

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Speaker 2: Thank you and.

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Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening. Steffan never told you use

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Speaker 1: a protection by Heart Radio. For more podcast from my

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio, you can check out the iHeartRadio up Apple

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Speaker 1: podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H