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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 1: In today, we're bringing you some listener mail. Actually, Carney's

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Speaker 1: bringing some listener mail. And I've been wondering if Carney's

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Speaker 1: got something weird going on. I think he might have

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Speaker 1: become conscious recently, and I'm not quite sure how to tell,

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Speaker 1: but I'm getting some vibes. Well, uh, it makes sense

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Speaker 1: because he does read all of the listener mail, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of the listener mail that's come in has

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Speaker 1: revolved around our our episode on the the the idea

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Speaker 1: of machine consciousness, He's zombies and whatnot. We will definitely

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Speaker 1: explore some of that today, but of course we've got

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Speaker 1: to also get to some farts, some migraines, some cambodi

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Speaker 1: and segasaurus and lots of other fun stuff. Yeah, we've

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Speaker 1: we've really dished out a variety of topics in the

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Speaker 1: last month or two. Here, is there any way we

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Speaker 1: couldn't start with the fardonomicon. I think that's where we

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Speaker 1: must begin. In fact, Carney himself is insisting, well, yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is one of It is the topic

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Speaker 1: that we know everyone can relate to. You might not

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Speaker 1: be that interested in in AI topics, you might not

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Speaker 1: be that that interested in dinosaurs, but you cannot help

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Speaker 1: but have some level of investment in the topic of flagelence.

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Speaker 1: All right, Kearney's bringing one over here right now. This

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Speaker 1: one is from Marco. He writes, Dear guys, the part

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Speaker 1: of the fart episode where you calculated the amount of

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Speaker 1: gas we expel each day reminded me of this The

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Speaker 1: greatest paragraph in twentieth century literature, from Samuel Beckett's nineteen

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Speaker 1: novel uh Malloy. I'm not familiar with this novel, uh

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Speaker 1: I haven't read it, but here here's the quote. And

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Speaker 1: in winter under my great coat, I wrapped myself in

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Speaker 1: swaths of news paper and did not shed them until

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Speaker 1: the earth awoke for good in April. The Times literary

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Speaker 1: supplement was admirably adapted to this purpose of a never

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Speaker 1: failing toughness and in permeability. Even farts made no impression

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Speaker 1: on it. I can't help it. Gas escapes from my

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Speaker 1: fundament on the least pretext. It's hard not to mention

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Speaker 1: it now and then however great might distaste. One day,

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Speaker 1: I counted them three hundred and fifteen farts in nineteen hours,

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Speaker 1: or an average of over sixteen farts an hour. After all,

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Speaker 1: it's not excessive. Four farts every fifteen minutes, it's nothing,

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Speaker 1: not even one fart every four minutes. It's unbelievable. Damn it.

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Speaker 1: I hardly fart at all. I should never have mentioned it,

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Speaker 1: the words of Samuel Beckett dignity echoing through my brain.

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Speaker 1: You know, this reminds me too that I believe we

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Speaker 1: heard from another listener who pointed out some tidbits about

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Speaker 1: Andre the giants farts that are apparently mentioned in the

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Speaker 1: recent HBO documentary about Andre, and there is a tie

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Speaker 1: into Samuel Beckett there as well, because there are these

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Speaker 1: stories about how Beckett used to drive Andre to school.

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Speaker 1: So I assume that the story is their thunderous? Are

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Speaker 1: they thunderous? That? Yes, if there's a story about Andrea,

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Speaker 1: you know it's about him doing something to gigantic proportions.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've always had a kind of weird fascination

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Speaker 1: with this kind of mentality, that the character that's being

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Speaker 1: described in the novel here, the kind of unstoppable quantitative

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Speaker 1: curiosity about the machinations of your own physical body. It

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Speaker 1: makes me think of Santorio Sentaurio, right, the guy who

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Speaker 1: weighed everything that he ate and know everything that came

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Speaker 1: out of him. For I can't remember, it was like

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Speaker 1: a year or something, a long period of time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: make every aspect of your life a science experiment. Another

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Speaker 1: interesting aspect about all this that comes to mind is

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Speaker 1: that the fact that, of course most of us do

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Speaker 1: not set around counting and numbering um our farts, but

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Speaker 1: you're saying we should. Well, it makes me think about

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Speaker 1: the future of of biotechnology. You know, used to to

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Speaker 1: keep a real time uh tabs on our health. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It makes sense that there will be a fart counter

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Speaker 1: at some point, and it's going to have like a

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Speaker 1: share to Facebook button times today tell your friends, Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I wonder you'll probably have the two categories, right, the

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Speaker 1: people who share out an exceedingly low number and those

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Speaker 1: who share out an exceedingly high number. Uh. It'll be

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Speaker 1: interesting to see see how that works, because it does

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Speaker 1: seem like the basic kind of biometric that will be

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Speaker 1: recorded by these devices. And uh and and and it'll

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Speaker 1: for some of us it will be like hitting that

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Speaker 1: screen on a video game where it tells you how

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Speaker 1: many hours you devoted to playing it, You're gonna be uh,

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Speaker 1: perhaps a little astounded, and how many how many farts

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Speaker 1: passed you by? That is a profound insight. It really could.

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Speaker 1: It could get you that way. I can also see

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Speaker 1: it leading to health trends. You know, once you have

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Speaker 1: it quant fight in front of you, people are going

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Speaker 1: to start thinking about it, which will make them like

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Speaker 1: create theories about it. You know, even if those theories

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Speaker 1: aren't very scientifically informed. There's gonna be like the equivalent

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Speaker 1: of fad diets. But for how much you should fart,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be the oil pulling of your butt? Who

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Speaker 1: and then what of our biometric devices have some at

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Speaker 1: least limited form of of artificial intelligence. And then they

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Speaker 1: communicate with us and they say things like, Dave, you

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Speaker 1: haven't farted enough today, Dave, quit holding it in, Dave,

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Speaker 1: it's not healthy, Dave, you have bread farts all right.

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Speaker 1: Here's our next response to the Pardonomicon episode. This is

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Speaker 1: from Keith. Keith writes, Robert and Joe, I've wondered for

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Speaker 1: a while what the political implications of farting might be like,

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Speaker 1: for instance, say there's a meeting between diplomats or leaders

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Speaker 1: and one of them is particularly gassy. Did you come

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Speaker 1: across any examples of how something like this could make

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Speaker 1: negotiations go awry because the other party is disgusted, whether

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Speaker 1: consciously or not. Are there national purity protocols surrounding flatulence?

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Speaker 1: I know you touched upon farting in front of royalty

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Speaker 1: and medieval times, but I'm wondering if there are more

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Speaker 1: contemporary examples. Do you think US presidents where those activated

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Speaker 1: charcoal linings when they meet foreign leaders? For some reason,

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Speaker 1: when I picture a recent meeting between Donald Trump and

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Speaker 1: jij and Ping, I just imagine them both letting off

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Speaker 1: some serious esteem. Thanks for reading. Love the show. Uh well,

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Speaker 1: I have a few thoughts on that before we get

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Speaker 1: into any historical examples. First of all, I feel like

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Speaker 1: any world leader, of course, is going to have a

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Speaker 1: security detail. The president of the United States is going

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Speaker 1: to have a Secret Service agents present, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like I don't have any hard date on this, but

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Speaker 1: I suspect that they are there not only to take

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Speaker 1: a bullet for the president, but also to claim any

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Speaker 1: disruptive episodes of flatulence as well brilliant. Yeah, they take

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Speaker 1: the reputational bullet. Yeah, they say, oh I'm sorry, Mr President,

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Speaker 1: that was me again. So normally you'd blame it on

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Speaker 1: the dog, but now you can blame it on agents

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Speaker 1: so and so. Right, But then the dog is a

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Speaker 1: good point to there's always a presidential dog, right, and

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Speaker 1: maybe that is Ultimately the presidential dog's purpose is to

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Speaker 1: diffuse any awkwardness in meetings with with other, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: high ranking world leaders. I've never thought about it that way,

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Speaker 1: but but it makes sense. You've got me on the hook.

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Speaker 1: But I believe you have some actual data, some actual

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Speaker 1: historical details. Well, regarding the disruptive nature of flash lence, Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't have anything good political from recent times. I've

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Speaker 1: got some older stuff, and I found one example of

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Speaker 1: of a maybe not politically but at least legally important

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Speaker 1: fart So, in two thousand and eight, a man in

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Speaker 1: West Virginia was pulled over for driving without headlights. I

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Speaker 1: read about this in NBC News. He's pulled over for

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Speaker 1: driving without headlights given field sobriety tests, fails the sobriety tests,

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Speaker 1: and he's being arrested by police. Sometime during his arrest

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Speaker 1: and interaction with the police. He allegedly farted and wha

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Speaker 1: did it toward one of the officers, and then he

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Speaker 1: was charged with battery. Uh. The complaints said quote the

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Speaker 1: gas was very odorous and created contact of an insulting

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Speaker 1: or provoking nature, which that's just cop language to the core. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I whether stick. No, the charges were dropped. I think it.

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Speaker 1: I think they realized they couldn't make that stick. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well that would it would be a rough precedent to

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Speaker 1: to establish, right, Yeah, that flashelens is u is battery.

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Speaker 1: I mean, when you're talking to the police, you're probably nervous,

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Speaker 1: right yeah. I mean it's all all sorts of stuff

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Speaker 1: that's going to come out, So I imagine they should

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Speaker 1: be used to it right now. I also found a

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Speaker 1: great kind of kind of breezy fun article in The

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Speaker 1: Daily Beast by the English historian and theologian candidate Moss,

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Speaker 1: which mentioned some of the most politically consequential farts in history.

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Speaker 1: Just a few examples. She drew my attention to. One

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Speaker 1: of them is that in the ancient Persian religion of Manicheism,

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Speaker 1: we we talked about some other religious implications of farts

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Speaker 1: but not in Manicheism and this religion, farts were holy

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Speaker 1: apparently because they literally believed in what Moss describes as

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Speaker 1: as the idea of an act of freeing divine light

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Speaker 1: from the body. That's what a fart constituted. Wow, that

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Speaker 1: does remind me of of some messaging that I've I've

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Speaker 1: heard in yoga classes before. Uh, in two ways. I

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Speaker 1: had a yoga teacher once who had everybody get into

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Speaker 1: a happy baby pose. This is where you you're on

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Speaker 1: your back and your your your legs are kind of

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Speaker 1: a kimbo and you're you're holding your your feet and uh,

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Speaker 1: and were everyone was instructed to let your your anus

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Speaker 1: like shine like a flashlight. Um. But then it's also

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Speaker 1: one of the realities of going to a yoga classes.

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Speaker 1: Occasionally there are toots, I mean everybody's especially if it's

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Speaker 1: like first thing in the morning and people are showing up.

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Speaker 1: You're twisting your body into new positions and sounds are

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Speaker 1: going to erupt, and everyone has to kind of hand

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Speaker 1: with a certain amount of decorum. Uh. Sometimes a yoga

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Speaker 1: teacher will will I mean they don't call anybody out,

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Speaker 1: or at least I've never been to a yoga class

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Speaker 1: like that, that would be terrifying. But but occasionally they

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Speaker 1: will provide some messaging on twots and and we'll even

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Speaker 1: encourage it and say that like if if you two

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Speaker 1: during yoga class like that is a good thing. That is,

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Speaker 1: that means that your body is activated by what you

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Speaker 1: were doing. And I tend to I tend to like

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Speaker 1: it when there's at least, you know, some level of

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Speaker 1: of messaging like that in the class. So it's not

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Speaker 1: what I imagine when you first said they talk about

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Speaker 1: it as they'd be like, you know, Roberts, stop it. Well,

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Speaker 1: here's the other great thing about about yoga classes. As

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Speaker 1: long as there are more than two people, as long

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Speaker 1: as it's not just you and the teacher, you almost

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Speaker 1: always have plausible deniability. Uh So it's the one on

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Speaker 1: one classes you need to be worried about that sounds

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Speaker 1: scary or not worried about, depending again on just how

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Speaker 1: clearly it's established that a few tutes are okay. Now,

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Speaker 1: speaking of the master suit relationship here, we could also

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Speaker 1: go to the cult of Pythagoras, the ancient Greek philosopher

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Speaker 1: and arguably cult leader. Pythagoras, apparently, according to some beliefs.

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Speaker 1: He taught that people should not eat beans. There's a

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Speaker 1: great there's a great medieval engraving of God, of him

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Speaker 1: not engraving. It looks like an illustration of Pythagoras standing

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Speaker 1: across from some fava beans and just holding up his

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Speaker 1: hands like get out of here with those do not

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Speaker 1: eat beans? Well, what was his reasoning? He just did

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Speaker 1: not like them? Or was was it to toots? Well?

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Speaker 1: A possible reason for this is that Pythagoras apparently believed

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Speaker 1: that it was possible to fart out your soul. And

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Speaker 1: this makes more sense if you know a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the words in the Greek language for soul. So

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Speaker 1: in the in the Greek language of the time, the

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Speaker 1: words for the spirit or the soul, that word was

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Speaker 1: numa p n e u m a like from the

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Speaker 1: same source that we get the word pneumatic uh. And

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Speaker 1: in Greek this was literally the word for breath. But

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Speaker 1: for example, in several books in the New Testament, God

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Speaker 1: or the Holy Spirit is called numa, meaning that it's

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Speaker 1: an immaterial spirit or soul, but literally the word being

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Speaker 1: used in the text there is the word for breath,

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Speaker 1: So God is breath. Souls are breath, and of course,

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Speaker 1: to the ancient Greeks, one type of breath was, as

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Speaker 1: Moss points out, a fart. So the idea of farting

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Speaker 1: out one's soul is not necessarily as weird as it

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Speaker 1: first sounds. That that seems like something kind of linguistically plausible,

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Speaker 1: how man. But but also again, it just seems like

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Speaker 1: you're you're working yourself into a corner with this kind

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Speaker 1: of thinking, because the farts you're going to come, and

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Speaker 1: if you're tying that and tethering it to some idea

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Speaker 1: that you're you're losing some portion of your soul each time,

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Speaker 1: that's just a losing proposition. Yeah, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: that worked out. I mean it seems like a like

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Speaker 1: a bat early example of religious body shaming. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's not that different really from some of the account

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Speaker 1: sweet we saw where it was where it was connected

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Speaker 1: to the idea that there was some sort of an

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Speaker 1: evil spirit in you producing this gas. We're really no

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Speaker 1: better than the Pythagoreans now. But to demonize beans, I

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Speaker 1: just that that actually surprised me because I just kind

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Speaker 1: of assumed that beans were gonna be okay with any

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Speaker 1: religion or or weird a sect or cult that there's

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Speaker 1: always going to be a place for beans no matter

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Speaker 1: what other you know, meats or dairy products that you

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Speaker 1: exclude from your table. Well, yeah, I mean you've got

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Speaker 1: to think, how can you do geometric proofs in the

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Speaker 1: sand if you're not eating beans? What do you? What

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Speaker 1: do you? Especially since I think it's also believed to

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Speaker 1: some extent that Pythagoras advocated vegetarianism, so greens, I guess, interesting,

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Speaker 1: all right, but how about how about some higher stakes

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Speaker 1: examples here? Okay, one more example that candidate Moss mentions.

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Speaker 1: She draws my attention to this story and Herodotus I

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Speaker 1: look this up. So Herodotus is chronicling a case where

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Speaker 1: a fart supposedly didn't necessarily cause, but intensified and ongoing

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Speaker 1: a revolt against an Egyptian pharaoh. So you've got a

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Speaker 1: sixth century b C. Egyptian pharaoh named Apris who found

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Speaker 1: out that his general A masses Was had become part

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Speaker 1: of a plot to rebel against the pharaoh and and

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Speaker 1: crown himself the general king. And so the pharaoh is

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Speaker 1: sending a servant of his named Pater Bemis to talk

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Speaker 1: the general down and sort of bring him back into

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Speaker 1: the fold. And here's where I read the quote from

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Speaker 1: Herodotus quote on intelligence of this event, the king sent

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Speaker 1: Potter Bemis, one of the most faithful of those who

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Speaker 1: yet adhered to him, with directions to bring a masses

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Speaker 1: alive to his presence. Arriving where he was, he called

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Speaker 1: to a masses. A masses was on horseback and lifting

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Speaker 1: up his leg, he broke wind and bade him carry

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Speaker 1: that to his master. Uh. Pharaoh didn't take this well.

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Speaker 1: When the message arrived. He was really upset, and he

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Speaker 1: was so angry he actually cut off the nose and

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Speaker 1: ears of the servant who delivered it. And this supposedly

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Speaker 1: was so cruel that it actually encouraged more people to

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Speaker 1: turn against the pharaoh preas and joined in amass rebellion,

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Speaker 1: which successfully deposed the far defended king. There's a lesson

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Speaker 1: here in being too uptied about fart humor. I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, if he had just played it a little cooler,

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Speaker 1: and maybe he wouldn't have come off like a tyrant

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Speaker 1: and uh and and lost some crucial support here. I

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Speaker 1: think that's a deeply astute observation. You you gotta you

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Speaker 1: gotta keep your cool around farts. They can be your

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Speaker 1: undoing um. You know. To return to the question of

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Speaker 1: modern politics and farts, and there may be some excellent

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Speaker 1: examples out there it. We do have to remember that

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Speaker 1: we we have some fairly awkward and even embarrassing UM

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Speaker 1: meet ups between world leaders that did happen with with

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Speaker 1: a fair amount of frequency, but people have been vomited upon. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about who was it George H. W. Bush

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Speaker 1: who vomited what the Japanese state dinner? It was Japanese

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Speaker 1: state dinner, if I recall correctly, and that did not

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Speaker 1: harm to you know, count people know that barfing happens um,

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Speaker 1: you know, and likewise they're they're always awkward handshakes, it

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Speaker 1: seems in the news, and people work through that. So

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine if fart would be too disastrous these days,

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Speaker 1: unless again, tendons were already so high, uh, that you

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Speaker 1: were just one far away from war. Here's an interesting question.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if world leaders have code signals worked out.

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Speaker 1: So imagine they're in intense negotiation and they need to fart.

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Speaker 1: Do they work it out with their aids that there's

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Speaker 1: something they can do where an ad will come to

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Speaker 1: them and say we need you, We need you to

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Speaker 1: come outside for a second for a secure message or something,

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Speaker 1: so you can go out in the hall and fart

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Speaker 1: and then go back in and resume having, you know,

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Speaker 1: without quite so much stress in your life, you know.

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Speaker 1: And another way of looking at it, though, is that

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Speaker 1: perhaps it is advantageous for a world leader to have

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Speaker 1: like one fart ready to actually um, you know, disarmed

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Speaker 1: the tension in the room, because if things get too tense,

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Speaker 1: a fart could be a lifesaver, because it's ultimately this humanizing,

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Speaker 1: comedic moment, assuming that the individual um who admitted it

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Speaker 1: is willing to own that moment and appreciate the humor

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Speaker 1: of it. You've got to know your enemy. No, who's

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Speaker 1: across the table from you, No, will they take a

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Speaker 1: fart as a fence or or will will it break

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Speaker 1: the ice? Yeah? Quick poll question for for all the

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Speaker 1: listeners out there, what percentage of people have, at some

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Speaker 1: point in their life pretended to take a phone call

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Speaker 1: so they could go outside of the room and fart

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Speaker 1: that I look forward to the results in that question.

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Speaker 1: All Right, we're gonna take a break, and when we

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Speaker 1: come back, we will jump back in to our listener mail.

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Speaker 1: Thank alright, we're back. Okay, this next when comes to

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Speaker 1: us from our listener, Anna, it's on the Vault episode

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Speaker 1: we recently aired about bird intelligence, and writes Hi, Robert

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Speaker 1: and Joe, I enjoy listening to your podcast. I like

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Speaker 1: listening to your Vault episode about bird intelligence. One of

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Speaker 1: my favorite examples of bird intelligence is the use of fire.

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Speaker 1: In the northern parts of Australia, birds of prey, kites

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Speaker 1: and falcons have been seen picking up smoldering sticks, carrying

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Speaker 1: them and dropping them further away. This ignites the bush

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Speaker 1: land and causes insects and rodents to flee. This bird

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Speaker 1: then eats the fleeing rodents and insects along with its

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Speaker 1: bird friends. These birds have been collectively called fire hawks

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Speaker 1: by local Aboriginal people's They have legends about fire and

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Speaker 1: birds in their culture. Anyway, love your work, keep it up.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, that is that is impressive. That's a that's

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Speaker 1: some straight up jungle book stuff right there. That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: I looked that up. I was like, not that I

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Speaker 1: didn't believe you, but I kind of had to see

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Speaker 1: it for myself. So I haven't been able to find

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Speaker 1: like pictures of this happening, because apparently this is something

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Speaker 1: that's been known about by many, especially of the Northern

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Speaker 1: Aboriginal peoples of Australia, for a long time, but there's

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Speaker 1: only recently been an effort to scientifically document the phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: And the big question is are the birds doing it

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Speaker 1: on purpose? Right? So we we believe we we hear

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Speaker 1: all these anecdotes that people have witnessed this, But are

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Speaker 1: they picking up smoldering sticks by accident and that maybe

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Speaker 1: they think their prey or something and then dropping them,

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Speaker 1: or are they actually intentionally starting fires? Interesting? It'll be yeah,

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Speaker 1: interesting to see how that shakes out. I mean I

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Speaker 1: wonder in a lot of different ways how fire can

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Speaker 1: be encoded into our instincts and into our brains and

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Speaker 1: a kind of deep genetic level. I think we talked

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Speaker 1: about this in a couple of episodes we did about

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Speaker 1: fire a long time ago. But there's there's always the

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Speaker 1: question of like, how do you become a primate that

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Speaker 1: starts to master fire? So if you're previously a I

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Speaker 1: made who you know, for all kinds of good reasons,

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Speaker 1: would want to run away from fire. Fire is dangerous?

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Speaker 1: You don't want to sleep next to a big forest fire.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, fire can give you great

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Speaker 1: benefits if you know how to predict its movements, if

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Speaker 1: you know how to even capture it and use it.

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Speaker 1: So what types of phenomena biologically, in terms of behavior

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Speaker 1: and instinct and and natural appetites and stuff like that

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Speaker 1: will actually lead you to become the kind of creature

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Speaker 1: that can tolerate fire, can understand fire, can master fire. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a fascinating question because we don't always realize it.

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Speaker 1: But but fire is part of our natural environment and

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Speaker 1: it and it has been throughout the history of certainly

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Speaker 1: of surface life on the planet. So it makes sense

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Speaker 1: that that other animals would develop strategies for fire as well.

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Speaker 1: Even though the most predominant strategy is going to be,

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Speaker 1: of course, flee from it uh find safety from it,

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Speaker 1: it does make sense that other creatures might pick up

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Speaker 1: on at least minor ways to benefit from it or manipulated.

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Speaker 1: In our City Evolution episodes, we talked about the idea

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Speaker 1: of neophilia, right, the idea of animals having certain traits

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Speaker 1: for being drawn towards strange, unusual, unfamiliar objects, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of times in nature that's not a good idea, right,

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Speaker 1: those objects can be dangerous, But one can think of

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Speaker 1: fire as a kind of archetype of that sort of object,

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Speaker 1: uh that incompanies, both the risks and rewards. Fire can

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Speaker 1: kill you if you don't treat it right, but it

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Speaker 1: can also drive prey your way, or if you are

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Speaker 1: some kind of early hominid, you could maybe even use

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Speaker 1: it to start more fires and keep a campfire. I

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Speaker 1: just can't help. But now imagine a raccoon with a

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Speaker 1: Zippo lighter and all the horrible things that could could

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Speaker 1: transpire because of it. It's funny, but you know, I wonder,

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Speaker 1: and so give raccoons thousands more years in human cities

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Speaker 1: where people discarding cigarette lighters on the sidewalk, what makes

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Speaker 1: me thankful for the child law? We you know, we

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Speaker 1: have our various um like um you know, charcoal grill lighters,

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Speaker 1: the sort of long necked lighters. Generally you have that

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Speaker 1: two button combination, and a human child is often incapable

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Speaker 1: of activating it, but crafty raccoons maybe, But if but

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Speaker 1: if we did not have that child lock already in place,

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Speaker 1: if it wasn't already child proof um, it would It

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Speaker 1: would just be ready for the raccoons to to run

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Speaker 1: wild with. We've got to stop thinking about this. We're

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Speaker 1: going to a scary place, all right. Speaking of a

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Speaker 1: scary place, we have a bit of listener mail here

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Speaker 1: from James on machine consciousness. James writes, towards the end

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Speaker 1: of machine consciousness and p zombies, you made a comment

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Speaker 1: to the effect that the advance of artificial intelligence is

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Speaker 1: inevitable and the best we can do is guide it

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Speaker 1: in the right direction. I would argue that the development

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Speaker 1: of the atomic bomb was also inevitable, given the state

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Speaker 1: of scientific research at the time and the overwhelming need

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Speaker 1: to win the Second World War. AI and atomic weapons

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Speaker 1: are both fruits of human scientific research. Both have the

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Speaker 1: potential to wipe out the human race. Is it really

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Speaker 1: inevitable that the human race will always pursue scientific research,

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Speaker 1: even faced with the risk of self annihilation? This sounds

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Speaker 1: insane to me and also true. Yeah, James, I think

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Speaker 1: that's right. I mean, one of the things that's kind

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Speaker 1: of scary about the about atomic weapons is that, in

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Speaker 1: a sense you could almost say that they're not invented

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Speaker 1: so much as discovered. I mean, they're there they're there

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Speaker 1: in the laws of physics, they're there in the in

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Speaker 1: the facile materials that you find naturally in earth crust.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's the potential is there, and it's just

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Speaker 1: a thing waiting to be discovered by someone who puts

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Speaker 1: a few things together about their observations and realizes like, oh, wow,

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Speaker 1: this is what we could do. Well. It's one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons that self annihilation factors into our contemplations of

427
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: extrastrestrial life, because things like this are there to be discovered,

428
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: and it makes sense that other potentially in intelligent life

429
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: forms would make the same discoveries and risk self annihilation

430
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,479
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah. And it's even scarier when you just

431
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: when you apply that back to us. I mean, it

432
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: makes you realize we can't ban it, right, you know,

433
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: we can't just say like, oh, we will never allow

434
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 1: anybody to create nuclear weapons anymore. I mean, in a

435
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 1: way that would be a good thing. I would like

436
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 1: a world without nuclear weapons, but it's always going to

437
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 1: be out there for people to rediscover and do again

438
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: with materials available on Earth. Yeah, and I think this

439
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: is largely the story of technology. Uh Ai is probably

440
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: one of the most interesting uh uh You know contemporary

441
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 1: and near future examples. The atomic bomb is of course

442
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 1: the the most horrifying example of our time, but if

443
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: you look at the nineteenth and twentieth century advancements in chemistry,

444
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: you see an number of other um potent examples UH

445
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: producing both the chemistry of life and the chemistry of death.

446
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: For instance, German biochemist Richard Coon discovered the deadly formula

447
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: for the chemical weapon UH suman in, and that was

448
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: a mere six years after winning the Nobel Prize in

449
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: Chemistry for his work on life enhancing carotenoids and vitamins.

450
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: UH Sarin gas emerged in nineteen thirty eight as a

451
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: German pesticide, and the US military chemical weapon b Z

452
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: started out as a rejected gastro gastro intestinal medication. And

453
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: this is because during the Cold War US Army researchers

454
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 1: at Edgewood Arsenal would sort through left roughly four hundred

455
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:49,479
Speaker 1: rejected medications a month UH defined potential weapons. So in

456
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: this in this attempt to discover all these wonderful medications

457
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: that would enhance our lives, UH, we were of course

458
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 1: finding things that didn't quite work or outright didn't work

459
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: because of their side effects, and then who is coming

460
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: along behind them, But these researchers looking for the ones

461
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 1: with the side effects that could be weaponized. And then

462
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,479
Speaker 1: one of the biggest examples too is a German chemist,

463
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: Fritz Haber won a Nobel Prize in chemistry in Nighten

464
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: for the haber Bosch process. This is the main industrial

465
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: process for the production of ammonia and essential to the

466
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: fertilizer industry. But in doing that he also contributed greatly

467
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: to the chemistry of death. He's considered by many to

468
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: be the father of modern chemical warfare. I think you're

469
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: exactly right about all this. But we've just been talking

470
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: about weapons so far, and this goes far beyond weapons.

471
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: I mean all kinds of technologies that are not even

472
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: conceived of as weapons are potentially self destructive or self

473
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: annihilating for us. Think about how much good has been

474
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: done for the world by fossil fuels. I mean they've

475
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 1: brought tremendous productivity, allowed people to create technologies that save lives,

476
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,959
Speaker 1: that move people around, get them where they need to be.

477
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: That increased agricultural yield allow us to feed more people. Uh,

478
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: that give us all kinds of technologies that were totally

479
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: dependent on but now we're seeing like, oops, this comes

480
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: with a side effect to just like the risks posed

481
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: by chemical weapons that come out of all the advances

482
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: of the chemical industry, We've now got climate change looming

483
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: on us because of all this great stuff we got

484
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: out of fossil fuels. Stuff like this tends to pop

485
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: up almost in every arena of technology. You start to imagine,

486
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: the more powerful it becomes, the more good stuff it

487
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 1: can do for us, the more dangerous it is. And

488
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: we see that today as well in our information technologies

489
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: and in the potential rise of artificial intelligence. Yeah, I

490
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: mean in a much more mundane sense, in a way

491
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 1: that's not life threatening, in the way that uh, ultimately

492
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: climate change or you know, every day nuclear weapons are.

493
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: You might sort of notice that the ways in which

494
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 1: social media has become very useful and integrated into our

495
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: lives tracks pretty closely with the degree to which social

496
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: media has become a really negative of force in people's lives. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay,

497
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 1: here's another one about machine consciousness. This comes from our

498
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: listener PJ. PJ says, Hi, Robert and Joe, longtime listener,

499
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: first time responder, I'd like to offer some commentary on

500
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: your recent discussion of machine consciousness. It's easy to see

501
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 1: how we may already be on the slippery slope toward

502
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 1: giving computer programs the same rights as people, even without

503
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: answering the question of machine consciousness. Today, we already have

504
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: virtual worlds where millions of people interact with each other

505
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: using avatars. Some popular computer games may spring to mind,

506
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 1: but even something as ubiquitous as Facebook will work for

507
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: this hypothesis. These virtual worlds are co opting an ever

508
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: increasing portion of our time, money, and identity. We invest

509
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: more and more of ourselves into them, and spend increasingly

510
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: more time interacting with others through our avatar than we

511
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: do in face to face encounters. In fact, our digital

512
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: personas are already measured by how many interactions we have

513
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: in this virtual world. Metrics such as friends, followers, likes,

514
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: and page views are already being used to weigh our

515
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: relative worth on these platforms. We, as physical entities, are

516
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: limited in the amount of time we can spend directly

517
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,959
Speaker 1: improving these metrics. At the very least, we need sleep,

518
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: and most of us still have important offline responsibilities, but

519
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: our avatars remain in that world. Seven currently they're mostly

520
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: inert and passive, but it's not hard to see an

521
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: advantage and giving our avatar some limited ability to act

522
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: for us in the virtual realm to represent our interests

523
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: during our absence. We already have auto response options that

524
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: can deliver predetermined messages to those trying to reach us,

525
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: auto triggered in response to selected variables. As this trend

526
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: toward automated avatars continues, our digital selves will begin to

527
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: take on more of the decision making load for us,

528
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: at first in a programmatic way, but perhaps later on

529
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: in a way that more closely resembles artificial intelligence. After all,

530
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: we are rewarded for improving our metrics as much as possible,

531
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: so who wouldn't want time saving measures that help us

532
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: do that. Now, let's advance the thought experiment to the

533
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: next level, to a point where the virtual world is

534
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: on an equal footing with the real world, where the

535
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: vast majority of all interactions between us are conducted via

536
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: our automated avatars. Some tech savvy youths may already be

537
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: at that point. Again, this is not hard to imagine,

538
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: based on the technological trends we see today. At some

539
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: point it will be difficult perhaps impossible to tell whether

540
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: you are interacting with a real person or an auto

541
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: responsive avatar. In fact, it may not even matter, as

542
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: avatars become invested with more information and decision making power

543
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: that they may as well be considered an extension of

544
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: that person's mind. When someone's avatar responds to you, it

545
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: is no different than the person responding themselves. It just

546
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: happens to be in a delayed or pre programmed fashion

547
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: while their physical body is asleep or away doing something else.

548
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: Someday in the future, will we wake up, check our

549
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: Facebook feed and be given a summary of the various

550
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: interaction is our avatars have had online while we were sleeping.

551
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: Get the GISTs of entire conversations held by our avatar

552
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: with the avatars of others. See a readout of the

553
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: many likes and comments given by other people's avatars to

554
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: the funny memes that our avatar auto generated on our

555
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: behalf view the results of the business meetings are avatar

556
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: attended for us, double checked the tasks it volunteered us

557
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: to do, and then click a button to have our

558
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: avatar automatically perform those tasks. In such a world, when

559
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: somebody's physical body dies, but their avatar continues to represent

560
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: them at a hundred percent functionality. Will we have the

561
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: heart to pull the plug on that avatar? Do we

562
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: even have the right. What if the real person left

563
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: instructions for their avatar to remain behind to continue their

564
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: interests after death. What if the avatar is the one

565
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: who drafted these instructions entirely on its own, acting as

566
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: it always has in the best interests of the real person.

567
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: We're not that far from this situation becoming a reality,

568
00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: and as you can see, it will present some thorny

569
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: problems even with our question, even without the question of consciousness.

570
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: Thanks for the great shows. Keep him coming, p J. Well,

571
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: that was a great bit of listener mail. Yeah, yeah,

572
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: some some excellent points made there. Uh. It's interesting the

573
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: idea of your sort of virtual self that is kind

574
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: of uh that acts on your behalf as a proxy

575
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: and it's kind of a you know, representative while you're sleeping, etcetera. Uh.

576
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: This actually comes up in Peter Watt's novel Starfish, where

577
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: you have there there's the one character who keeps trying

578
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: to get in touch with this very powerful corporate individual

579
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: and instead of getting an answering machine. Each time on

580
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: answering service, he keeps getting the essentially the the the

581
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: virtual avatar of that person that was interacting on their behalf. Uh.

582
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: And and he doesn't want that, he wants to interact

583
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: with the actual person. But it was it was an interesting, uh,

584
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: one of many examples in that in that book that

585
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 1: touched on some very realistic possibilities for our our future

586
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: entanglement with our virtual technology. Yeah. I mean, I totally

587
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,959
Speaker 1: I I'm with you there. I mean I can see

588
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: this happening and it doesn't uh. I mean, it's it's

589
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: one of those things that appears very troubling from a distance,

590
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: but as you approach it incrementally, you can imagine how

591
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: what looks troubling now we'll kind of get slowly accustomed

592
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: to step by steps so that when it's actually the case,

593
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: you won't see it as all that weird. Yeah, because

594
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: the problem they have basic proposition is great, right, like,

595
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: are you tired of doing your social media interactions for work, Joe,

596
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: Then why don't we just have virtual Joe do it

597
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: for you? And virtual Joe would just send you a

598
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: summary at the end of the day, you know, and

599
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: he's not going to do anything that you wouldn't do.

600
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: He's not going to do anything that you haven't checked

601
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: off on. Uh, and he will take you know, some

602
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,239
Speaker 1: of the some of the load off your plate here.

603
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: I think this is a great idea for creating plausible

604
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: deniability when people create terrible social media foe. Pause. So

605
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: somebody tweets something very ill advised that they shouldn't have said.

606
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: They can be like, no, no no, no, that wasn't me,

607
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: that was my avatar that was automated, that some kind

608
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: of artificial intelligence malfunction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, clearly that's what

609
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: that's what happened. Yeah, I hadn't. I hadn't thought about

610
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: that that either, But instant plausible deniability on all the

611
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: worst tweets. Yeah, And god, there's there's so much to

612
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: to talk about in this this particular listener mail. I mean, certainly,

613
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of us have been online

614
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: long enough now to encounter time and time again, the

615
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: the the weirdness, the awkwardness, the sadness of encountering a

616
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: social media profile for somebody who is no longer living,

617
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: and it's it doesn't stop feeling weird, it doesn't stop

618
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: kind of haunting you a little bit, whether it's uh,

619
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's like a family member or or

620
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: just like a random social media friend whose profile never

621
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: goes away and occasionally shows up as you know, someone

622
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: else who likes it or follows a particular account. Um.

623
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: So I could I could see them having if not

624
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: legally protected status, then certainly culturally protected status. You know,

625
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: just the idea that of course you wouldn't delete that.

626
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,439
Speaker 1: Why would you delete this? This is essentially their their

627
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,479
Speaker 1: their tombstone. Um. On the other hand, I would say,

628
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: never discount humanity's capacity to limit the rights of their

629
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: fellow humans or take their rights away if there's something

630
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: to gain from it. Well, I mean, that was one

631
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: of the most horrifying scenarios I think we explored in

632
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: the original episode, is like, you can even imagine cases

633
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: where you have the rights of real, actual people in

634
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: competition with the rights of supposedly conscious virtual entities, and

635
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,959
Speaker 1: these supposedly conscious virtual entities end up trumping the rights

636
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 1: of real people. And we don't even know for sure

637
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: that these other entities are people. They might be, they

638
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: might not be. Well, what kind of comes down to

639
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: the question of who's going to decide, right, because I can.

640
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: I can think of look at look at historical historic accounts, uh,

641
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: historical situations where one group of people is determined to

642
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: be UM more human than the other, or to have

643
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 1: more intrinsic rights than the other group, and just imagine those, uh,

644
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: those situations extrapolated into the virtual realm. You could very

645
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: well imagine a situation where essentially it's like, oh, well,

646
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: these are virtual bodies. Sure, but these are virtual bodies

647
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 1: some very important um religious individuals, very important. Uh they're

648
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: members of very powerful families, or if they're AI, you

649
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:37,879
Speaker 1: can make the case that they get a lot done.

650
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: These are job creators, right, these AI entities that you know,

651
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 1: they're very productive. Yeah, so you could you could see

652
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 1: you could you can easily imagine them uh obtaining uh

653
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: a privileged status over very real human beings. At the

654
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: same time, it's kind of the whole uh, you know,

655
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: builder's shopping mall and in a Native American graveyard situation.

656
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: You know, if if there's if there's some advantage to

657
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: be taken in uh in pushing virtual bodies aside, uh,

658
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: then I feel like they're going to be those who

659
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 1: will do it. I just hope that they are then

660
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: haunted whatever there. I'm not even sure exactly what the

661
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: example would be, but I don't know the server space,

662
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: uh that they end up taking away from these virtual bodies.

663
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: I hope that the service space is then haunted by

664
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: those deceased individuals. Yeah, this area is just full of

665
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: unresolved problems that I feel like we we can't even

666
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: really begin yet to understand how we should prepare for.

667
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: And yet we've got to start preparing, right, I mean,

668
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 1: it's no answer to just say like, yeah, we'll deal

669
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: with it when it comes up, right. Alright. On that note,

670
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 1: we're gonna take one more break and then we will

671
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 1: come back with more listener mail. Thank alright, we're back. Okay,

672
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: let's we're gonna try to get through a few more

673
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: faster pace here. Now. This next one came into us

674
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: from our listener, Teresa. Also about the Machine Consciousness episode,

675
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: Teresa says, Hey, guys, when you were talking about the

676
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: AI wanting to commit suicide as a reward at the

677
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: end of its task, it sounded almost like the me

678
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: seeks from Rick and Morty. To quote from them, existence

679
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: is pain Just a fun thought I had while listening

680
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 1: keep up the great podcast, Teresa. All right, so you

681
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: have not seen these episodes of Ricken mort You know,

682
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: I had people keep telling me that it's full of

683
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: great scientific concepts that come up on the show all

684
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 1: the time, and I would like it, but I still

685
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: haven't watched it. Okay, well, well this is a This

686
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: is a great episode because and I and I can't

687
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: believe I didn't think of it when I was kind

688
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: of spit bawling about uh, you know, annihilation seeking Aiyes, Uh.

689
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: The mee seeks are these little blue sort of creatures,

690
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: technological creatures that pop up kind of like genies, and

691
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: they help you with a problem. But they want to

692
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: help you with the problem as quickly as possible because

693
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: they want to then vanish out of existence at the

694
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: end of the problem. So they are kind of the

695
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: perfect manifestation of what I was talking about. Now, even

696
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: though I don't watch the show, I can imagine that

697
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: if this kind of technology is established, it surely must

698
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: go very wrong. Right, Well, it goes. It goes wrong

699
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 1: when they are when they're asked to it help solve

700
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: a situation that does not have a fast and easy solution,

701
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,439
Speaker 1: because then they are at pains to just labor over

702
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: it for you know, for for days or weeks or

703
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: months so or however long to see it accomplished. But

704
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: you don't have to worry about them rising to power

705
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: towards and abusing their power because all they want is annihilation.

706
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,720
Speaker 1: Well wait this, this goes back to the first problem

707
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 1: we talked about. Then. You know, we've been talking about

708
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 1: the idea of AI parasites, but it's also a problem

709
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: if there is actually conscious AI and we're abusing them. Yeah,

710
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: I mean it in this case, like you've created something

711
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: with the mesics that that have a desire that is

712
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: that runs counter to two living organisms that want to reproduce.

713
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: They don't want to continue their story and their existence

714
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: or their genetic information. They want uh, annihilation. And if

715
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: we're denying them annihilation, then then then we're the monsters. Right.

716
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: That's just recapitulating the cruelty of existence all over again. Yeah,

717
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: all right, This one comes to us from Julian. This

718
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: is about our Cambodian Stegasaurus episode. Apparently we did some

719
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 1: literary injustice. Uh. Dear Robert and Joe, I enjoyed your

720
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: podcast on the Underappreciated Stegasaurus. It was always my favorite,

721
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 1: one of my favorite dinosaurs when I was a kid,

722
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: and I remember walking on all fours with my butt

723
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: in the air as the Stego seems to do vo.

724
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: I also happened to be a fan of Conan the Barbarian,

725
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: the movie and the Robert E. Howard, Robert Jordan, and

726
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: various other authors who have brought Conan to life, so

727
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: it was a particularly cool mashup for me. I definitely

728
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,439
Speaker 1: see the comparison, as the Steggo and Conan both tend

729
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: to bristle with spikes and plates, but I would caution

730
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: against the comparison of Conan and the Steggo in cunning

731
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: and temperament. Okay, then, when I get the feeling we're

732
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: about to have a case made at us. While I

733
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 1: can't think of something less important or more pretentious than

734
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: correcting someone on a dinosaur and fictional character comparison, I

735
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: feel that Conan's honor must be defended, and by crom

736
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: I will do it. While the Steggo is postulated to

737
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: be a gentle, dimwitted herbivore, Conan is described to be

738
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 1: the antithesis of this. I am paraphrasing, but more or less,

739
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: Conan in Howard stories is the undiluted, primal cunning of

740
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: nature poured into the mold of a human being. He

741
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 1: has wolverine like senses and moves like a panther through

742
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 1: the forests and plains undetected. He perceives animals and enemies

743
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 1: that would be hidden to civilized men. Conan is also

744
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:46,240
Speaker 1: ironically far more civilized in things such as morality, honor,

745
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: and chivalry than the various civilized cultures he encounters. He

746
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 1: doesn't lie, he risked his life for his allies and

747
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: the weak, and he never breaks his word, although he

748
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 1: does these things while serving his own purposes. He's no

749
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,439
Speaker 1: goody two shoes, but he often does the right thing

750
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: and doesn't kill people indiscriminately. Conan is also fiercely cunning,

751
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: often outsmarting his opponents when they outnumber or seek to

752
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: ambush him. Conan manages to climb to the top of

753
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: every quote pack of wolves that he runs with, although often,

754
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: such as in the story A Witch Shall Be Born,

755
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,919
Speaker 1: he joined such packs of bandits, outlaws, and brigands while

756
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 1: crucified out in the desert and expected to die, let

757
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: alone lead Conan is also a poet and composes several

758
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: poems that are sprinkled throughout Howard's stories, most prolifically in

759
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: the Day of the Dragon and the Scarlet Citadel. If

760
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 1: you managed to read this far, I'm sincerely thankful. Once again,

761
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: I realize how An aim the idea of writing this

762
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 1: email is, and surprisingly, yes, I actually do have better

763
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 1: things that I should be doing. But every once in

764
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: a while you get a spark of something you are

765
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: passionate about and you can't let it go, no matter

766
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: how silly. What I hope to have impressed upon you

767
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: is that, despite the size plates and spiked clubs in common,

768
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 1: the lumbering Steggo is vastly different from Conan, who was

769
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: a pirate, a warlord, a thief, arranger, a king, and

770
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 1: has saved the world multiple times from evil wizards and

771
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: demon gods. I thoroughly enjoy your podcast. Please keep up

772
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: the good work. If this email was entertaining, let me know.

773
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. Guys. Well, I can't pretend to be

774
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: the expert on Conan that you are, Julian, but I

775
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 1: do very much appreciate this email. I like a good

776
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,760
Speaker 1: pedantic correction on the virtues of a fictional character. Yes, indeed,

777
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: one thing I think about a lot, which you mentioned,

778
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: is that so Conan he you know, he's violent, he

779
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: can be a brute. Sometimes he does a lot of

780
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: bad stuff. But you mentioned he doesn't lie. I feel

781
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: like that's key. That that's key. And a lot of characters,

782
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: a lot of anti heroes for some reason, you can

783
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: get a long way toward identifying with somebody if all

784
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: if all you have to do is have them tell

785
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: the truth. Yeah, there's like there's a brutal honesty to them. Okay.

786
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: This next email comes to us from our listener Josephine,

787
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: also about the Cambodian Stegosaurus episode, but ranching off from

788
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: that into a general suggestion. Now, in the Cambodian Stegosaurus episode,

789
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: we talked about the outdated idea that the stegosaurus might

790
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: have had two brains. That's not true, that is not

791
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: something that modern paleontologists think anymore, but it used to

792
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 1: be argued, and so we contemplated what would it be

793
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: like to have two brains? And here's where Josephine writes in,

794
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: I've been listening to your podcast for a few months now,

795
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: and I absolutely love the show. I love how you

796
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: guys approach each of the topics, and how open mind

797
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: did you come across. I'm a first year architecture grad

798
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: student who has background in psychology, biology, art, and premed studies.

799
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: I've been meaning to write to you guys for a

800
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: while to say how much I enjoy listening to the

801
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: podcast during late nights in the studio. Sometimes it's the

802
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,439
Speaker 1: only thing that keeps me awake during my way too

803
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,479
Speaker 1: frequent all nighters. I'm currently listening to the most recent

804
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: episode on stegasaurus Is and just had to pause to

805
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: send this email. So you guys talked a little about

806
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: the possibility of having two brains or consciousness is inside

807
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: one body, and it kind of reminded me of an

808
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: article I read about the can joined twins, Christina and

809
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 1: Tatiana Hogan, who supposedly share a mind or craniopagus twins.

810
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: There was another case where twins claim to being able

811
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 1: to see out of each other's eyes to some degree.

812
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: There have, of course been various instances of conjoined twins,

813
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: and I think it'd be a really interesting topic for

814
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: you guys to explore. And you guys do this well anyway.

815
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 1: But sub topics like the history of incidences, types of

816
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: conjoined twins, why or how it happens separation, would all

817
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 1: be neat to hear about, maybe even talk about parasitic

818
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: twins versus conjoined twins. Anyway, I hope this is at

819
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: least some food for thought. Love the podcast. It's been

820
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,240
Speaker 1: my saving grace these past months, slaving away in the studio.

821
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: Well thanks, you're far too kind, Josepheme. But I think

822
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,959
Speaker 1: that's a really interesting idea, Robert. I imagine you must

823
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 1: have covered this a little bit on the show before, right,

824
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 1: you know, I I'm I'm sure it's come up, but

825
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 1: I can't recall a specific conjoined twins episode. I'm more,

826
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 1: I'm I do recall thinking about doing a conjoined twins episode,

827
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: So maybe it's one of those that's just we've never

828
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: gotten around too. You know, it's something I would definitely

829
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: want to, uh to handle, right because honestly, I can

830
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: recall when I was younger watching like some TV documentaries

831
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: about conjoined twins that I feel like, we're not very

832
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: did not approach the subject with the right kind of tone. Obviously,

833
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: this is a very interesting scientific topic, but also, you know,

834
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 1: you want to remember people's humanity. And I remember watching

835
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: some documentaries about this when I was younger that sort

836
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: of treated it with a kind of freak show mentality. Yeah,

837
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: there's there, there is a danger there. I mean, not

838
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: so much for our cover job, but I think we could,

839
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: we would handle it in a respectful manner. But even so,

840
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: like I think we both grew up surrounded by a

841
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: lot of that you know, and you know you look at.

842
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: Like when I think of conjoined twins in media, I

843
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: inevitably end up thinking of like a Tales from the

844
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: Crypt episode where the twist is that the UH that

845
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: one of the characters has a conjoint twin that sort

846
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 1: of thing, or in an episode of The Simpsons where

847
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: Bart is separated from his conjoint twin and the other

848
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: twin lives in the attic, that sort of thing. And

849
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: so you have all those sort of freak show motifs

850
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 1: competing UH for attention against the very real human stories involved.

851
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: And those stories have got to be truly fascinating because

852
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: this could be I didn't even think about this option

853
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: when we were talking about it in the episode. The

854
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: idea of having UH two brains in one body. I

855
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 1: mean in a way where you have two people who

856
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: are essentially sharing a large part of their semantic infrastructure together,

857
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 1: but but have two separate brains versus people who are

858
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,720
Speaker 1: actually sharing brain tissue to some extent. Uh. Yeah, that's

859
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: gonna be one of the most interesting ways to explore

860
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: the different ways that consciousness can manifest according to your anatomy. Yeah, now,

861
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 1: one example, there's certainly no consciousness involved here, but uh,

862
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 1: in terms of just two brains and once one organism,

863
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: there is the example of the angler fish, where the

864
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: much smaller male anglerfish fuses with the larger female's body. Uh,

865
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: and then all non essential parts of the of the

866
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: male essentially atrophy away. That is a really fascinating example.

867
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: But maybe you're too quick to dismiss the idea of

868
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: angler fish consciousness. Who knows, Who knows what the mind

869
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 1: of the angler fish holds. I imagine it's it's I

870
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,439
Speaker 1: tend to imagine it's rather simple, and it so wants

871
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 1: and desires um and and they mostly revolve around light

872
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 1: and food. But but who knows. Maybe I'm selling them short.

873
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 1: I mean, here's the way I'd put it. When an

874
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: angler fish comes at you out of the darkness. Would

875
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,919
Speaker 1: you rather have overestimated it or underestimated? True? True? Good?

876
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 1: Good point? They already frightening? All right, here's one from Mike. Uh.

877
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: Mike says, gentlemen, I have just recently finished listening to

878
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: the episode on the each ing and was left slightly

879
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: disappointed that you didn't mention its place in pop culture

880
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,760
Speaker 1: as the tattoo shared by Snake Eyes and storm Shadow

881
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: in G I Joe. There were probably three other listeners

882
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,359
Speaker 1: who knew I have no idea about but well, you know,

883
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 1: I had to look at look it up. But and

884
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: true enough, they do have uh, they do have emblems

885
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: from the eaching on their shoulders. Yeah. Uh. Anyway, he continues,

886
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: but probably like me, they've had an interest in the

887
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: eaching thanks to the comics. And I really appreciated the

888
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,280
Speaker 1: episode because of it. Thanks for all the great podcasts

889
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: and keep it up. You make my commute in the

890
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: morning much more tolerable. But yes, true enough, these two

891
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: ninja characters from G I Joe to have eaching hexagrams

892
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 1: on their body. Uh. I'm not sure which specific hexagrams

893
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: they have. I would hope that they are aligned with,

894
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: you know, productive or destructive movements according to their classification

895
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 1: as EI either a g I Joe Ninja or a

896
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,879
Speaker 1: Cobran Ninja. But I'm not sure off stuff of my head.

897
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: The wind turns the experience commander waits, go Joe. We

898
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: also heard from a listener in India, Bargo rode In

899
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: about our hyper hyper real Religion episode, which we recently

900
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 1: featured as a Vault episode. They said, Hello from India.

901
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: I'm a software programmer living in Bangalore. I love listening

902
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,280
Speaker 1: to your shows, both stuff you should know and stuff

903
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 1: to blow your mind. I recently listened to one of

904
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: your episodes about hyper real religions. I like the way

905
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: you discussed the stuff about the religion of of F

906
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 1: S M and Jedi. I thought i'd share one more

907
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: local parity religion for my own country. It is called

908
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: Dinko is M. Dingo is Um is based on a

909
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 1: comic character who is a superhero who lives in the forest.

910
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: The character is from a comic that used to be

911
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 1: published in a magazine called Bala Mangala. This kid's magazine

912
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: used to be pretty famous in southern parts of India

913
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: when I was a kid in the nineties. He is

914
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 1: known as dinkin in Malayalam and Dinga in Kannada. Uh

915
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: thought it might be good to share this one. Keep

916
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 1: up the great work PS attaching an image of our

917
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: Almighty Lord and safe here thinks in regard. Uh. So,

918
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: this is a cartoon mouse that I get the feeling

919
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: is basically along the same lines as the role played

920
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's right, it's it's mainly

921
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,439
Speaker 1: from what I can tell just on reading a few

922
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,280
Speaker 1: things about it on the internet, mainly a parody religion

923
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 1: created by skeptics to satirize religious invasions into politics and

924
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 1: by by mainstream religions. Right and uh and what if

925
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: you look at the cartoon character, you definitely get a

926
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: mighty mouse kind of vibe from It's a very very

927
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: you know you mentioned it is a kid's character. This

928
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: is a This is not like a like a superman

929
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:38,800
Speaker 1: or a batman. This is more like a mighty mouse.

930
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: But he's got a great name like that sounds like

931
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: a good name for a god Dicken. Yeah, I like it.

932
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: So thanks for sharing that with us. Okay, this is

933
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: gonna be one last email and this comes to us

934
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 1: from our listener Maggie and reaction to. I think this

935
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: is after the Listener Male episode we did about responses

936
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,320
Speaker 1: to our face blindness episode, where we heard from lots

937
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: of face blind listeners and some mentioned that they got

938
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: some terms of face blindness related to migraine auras. Now,

939
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 1: Maggie writes, Hi, guys, I discovered your podcast a few

940
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: months ago and have been binging ever since. Thanks for

941
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 1: giving me something that feels like I'm enriching myself as

942
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: I go about my relatively mindless, tedious job. A good

943
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: episode really makes my day. I just finished listening to

944
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: your episode on listener Mail regarding prosopagnosia. Fascinating stuff, and

945
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 1: the bit about migraine auras grabbed my attention. I've suffered

946
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 1: from periodic migraine headaches since about twelve. Anyway, I've got

947
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,319
Speaker 1: a less common type of aura for my migraines that

948
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,800
Speaker 1: I thought might interest you. I smell stuff that isn't there.

949
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 1: It doesn't bother me except in that it indicates an

950
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: impending episode. Actually, aside from the nasty migraine part, I

951
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: kind of enjoy the weirdness of my auras. I can

952
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: be whole states away from the ocean and suddenly smell

953
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: salt marsh and burnt hamburgers, or driving along and smell

954
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: an overwhelming odor of dead rodent and daffodils. This one

955
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,359
Speaker 1: was in the dead of winter, with no mice in

956
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 1: my car. My passenger confirmed no such smell. It's almost

957
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: always an intensely powerful smell that's a combination of pleasant

958
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:12,720
Speaker 1: and unpleasant bacon and skunk, rotting meat and lilacs. Usually

959
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 1: the combination is so bizarre that I almost savor the

960
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 1: experience rather than focusing on the unpleasant notes to the scent.

961
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 1: It's just trippy to know your brain is lying to you,

962
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: but to really feel like it's true. I can't describe

963
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: how uncanny it is. There is only one time this

964
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 1: weird symptom was entirely pleasant, when I was changing an

965
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: adult man's heavily soiled depends and all I could smell

966
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 1: was the intense aroma of very ripe bananas wafting up

967
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: at me from the diaper. Wow, that is that is

968
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: quite an image, She says, Thank goodness for small blessings.

969
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 1: It turned an otherwise unenjoyable chore into a moment of

970
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: gratitude for my malfunctioning brain. When I have an aura

971
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 1: there is frequently a burning smell as one of the

972
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: notes of the scent. A lot of the time it's

973
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 1: burned toast smelling. Burning is so common that when I

974
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: do smell something burned, I usually ask anyone around whether

975
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: they also smell it. If they do too, I know

976
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to be fine. My hours can hit anywhere

977
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 1: from ten minutes to a full day prior to a migraine,

978
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 1: but they're usually around one to two hours ahead. Now,

979
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 1: Maggie actually shares a lot of other really interesting details

980
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: about our migraine symptoms that I think we might save.

981
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 1: We've gotten multiple migraine emails that we might save for

982
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: thinking about a full episode sometime in the future, investigating

983
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 1: what migraines are and all these interesting neurological phenomena they create.

984
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: But I wanted to just focus for a second on

985
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 1: the idea of these phantom smells, and especially the idea

986
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: of a burning smell. This is not just Maggie. I've

987
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: read about this a lot. I mean, it's a very

988
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: common thing you hear reported, so common that people almost

989
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: make jokes about it. You know, it's not necessarily with

990
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: migraine or is, but with any kind of neurological phenomena.

991
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,959
Speaker 1: People's somebody makes a joke that you might be having

992
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: a stroke, They say, do you smell burnt toast? Why

993
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 1: is the earning smell so deeply associated with uh, non

994
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 1: neurotypical phenomena. If you've got something, some kind of neurological

995
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 1: event going on in the brain, we've learned to associate

996
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: it with not just phantom smells, but specifically burning smells.

997
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 1: And I have read a little bit that this is

998
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 1: actually something that's widely reported. What kind of takes us

999
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: back to our discussion of the birds and and fire

1000
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 1: and human history with fire, And Yeah, it makes me

1001
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:29,919
Speaker 1: wonder about the you know, the the the the survival

1002
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 1: advantage one would have and identifying either the smell of

1003
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 1: wildfires or maybe later on the smell of campfires maintained

1004
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: by some other group of humans. Yeah, it's really interesting.

1005
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it just makes me wonder about like the

1006
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: ways in which the typical chemical signature of something burning

1007
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 1: might be hard coded to some kind of neural pathways

1008
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: in the brain. Why is that so commonly selected and

1009
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 1: identified as a type of phantom smell among the millions

1010
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: that you could be identifying and of course. The other

1011
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 1: cool thing about this is that we're getting into just

1012
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 1: the phantom nature of smell itself. There's so much going on.

1013
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 1: We can you can you can be walking down the

1014
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 1: street and uh and catch a particular aroma and it

1015
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 1: will be it will be like a thing that is

1016
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 1: not quite uh like codified in your your head, you know, uh,

1017
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 1: but it will take you back to something from your childhood,

1018
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 1: something you haven't thought about in decades. Smell has this

1019
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: amazing power over us, and then when you you have

1020
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 1: that crossed with migraine auras, uh, yeah, it makes for

1021
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 1: a rather magical in some respects experience. Yeah. Absolutely, I

1022
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 1: mean it's just it reinforces so well the fact that

1023
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 1: the thing you think with is not a thing that

1024
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 1: you can understand. The brain is a black box. The

1025
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 1: brain is the thing you use to understand the world,

1026
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 1: but you can't really understand how it generates the thoughts

1027
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: that you have. Do you think a migraine aura could

1028
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 1: also reduce the scent of a really sulfurous fart, and

1029
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 1: therefore might tie into some of our examples that we

1030
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 1: discussed in our fart Anomicon episode of encounters. Either fart

1031
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: based encounters or fart based deterrence to demonic entities. I

1032
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: think you are going down a very fruitful path of

1033
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 1: inquiry there. I think we should pursue that more in

1034
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 1: the future. But we have we have reached our limit

1035
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 1: for this episode, maybe even gone a little bit over, uh,

1036
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: which is which is difficult to avoid when we have

1037
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: so much great listener mail. Again, we we try and

1038
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: read everything. We don't have a chance to respond to everything,

1039
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: and we certainly don't have a chance to to read

1040
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: it all on the podcast, but we do want you

1041
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:43,919
Speaker 1: all to know that it is very much appreciated. Yeah,

1042
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 1: we really do love all the wonderful listener mail we get, uh,

1043
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 1: so please keep them coming. That's right, And as always

1044
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 1: I do ask everyone for a little R and R,

1045
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: a little rate and review if you have the opportunity

1046
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 1: to do so. Wherever you get this podcast, give us

1047
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 1: some stars. Leave the nice review. It helps us out.

1048
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 1: In the meantime, check out all the podcast episodes at

1049
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 1: stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com. If you heard

1050
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: us reference an episode in this listener mail, did you

1051
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: haven't listened to and it perched your interest, then head

1052
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 1: on over to the mothership to Stuff to Blow Your

1053
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: mind dot com and look it up. You'll also find

1054
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: links out to our various social media accounts that you

1055
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: can follow as well. Thank you so much, as always

1056
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 1: to our wonderful audio producers Alex Williams and Tarry Harrison.

1057
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

1058
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 1: to let us know what you thought about this episode

1059
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 1: or any other, to uh, to suggest a topic for

1060
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 1: the future, just to say hi, or to maybe end

1061
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Speaker 1: up on a future listener mail episode yourself, you can

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Speaker 1: always email us at blow the Mind at how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of

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Speaker 1: other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com? A

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Speaker 1: lit stot foot fourt