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Speaker 1: Heart Media, or their employees. I came home one day
Speaker 1: and he was sitting on the couch shaking his head.
Speaker 1: I saw a search warrant. I noticed that our front
Speaker 1: door was kicked in. The police had been there, and
Speaker 1: on the search warrant it said sexual assault and student.
Speaker 1: And we only had about it seemed twenty minutes before
Speaker 1: the police showed up again to arrest him, and I
Speaker 1: confronted him, is this true. I just couldn't believe it.
Speaker 1: I just was pacing back and forth because your reality
Speaker 1: is just shaken at that moment, you don't really believe
Speaker 1: what's happening. Imagine coming home to your happy marriage to
Speaker 1: a person you love dearly to find a search warrant
Speaker 1: on the door, and then shortly thereafter the arrest of
Speaker 1: your spouse in this happy marriage for sexual assault of
Speaker 1: a minor one of his students. No less, imagine that
Speaker 1: you didn't see a single red flag that you're happy
Speaker 1: marriage vanished in one brief moment. Imagine that your husband
Speaker 1: didn't cheat on you with just one person, but nearly
Speaker 1: seventy five. Betrayal is a standard part of every narcissistic relationship,
Speaker 1: and not all betrayal is created the same. Jennifer Pazon's
Speaker 1: story of betrayal has been captured in the hit podcast Betrayal.
Speaker 1: This episode of Navigating Narcissism uses the framework of narcissism
Speaker 1: to further unpack Jen's story. While the story of betrayal
Speaker 1: is traumatic and painful, Jen's story is a reminder that
Speaker 1: not all betrayal stories look the same, and also a
Speaker 1: chance to explore how a person starts to put her
Speaker 1: life together after such a profound betrayal. Today, I'm going
Speaker 1: to talk with Jennifer face on and with Andrea Gunning,
Speaker 1: the producer of Betrayal, to learn more about this story.
Speaker 1: First of all, Welcome, Jen and Andrea. You're here fresh
Speaker 1: from the podcast Betrayal, which to everyone listening to this podcast,
Speaker 1: you must listen to this episode, but then go listen
Speaker 1: to Betrayal if haven't already. If you have, you know
Speaker 1: this is going to be an amazing conversation because you
Speaker 1: know why I want to talk to Jen and Andrea.
Speaker 1: This is such an interesting episode for me on navigating
Speaker 1: narcissism because I've had the opportunity to listen to Betrayal
Speaker 1: and listen to this deep dive on your story and
Speaker 1: read anything I could find about it. But I don't
Speaker 1: want to redo Betrayal. You've done a beautiful job of
Speaker 1: telling the story. We'll orient people to the story, but
Speaker 1: on this podcast, I want to orient to using this
Speaker 1: different lens of of narcissistic relationships, which many people I'm
Speaker 1: sure heard. It's almost a shift in the lens from
Speaker 1: what you already did. So if we can just orient
Speaker 1: readers to start, if you could just sort of tell
Speaker 1: us the story of how you and Andrea came together
Speaker 1: and this podcast Betrayal came out well because I have
Speaker 1: a producer background. I as tragic as the story is,
Speaker 1: what happened to me. I knew that it would be
Speaker 1: a compelling story to share with so many different layers,
Speaker 1: and I thought it would be a way to let
Speaker 1: other people know that they're not alone. You know, when
Speaker 1: you go through something like this, you you just feel
Speaker 1: by yourself and you want to connect to other people.
Speaker 1: I learned about some amazing podcasts that Andrea had already
Speaker 1: produced and reached out to them. It was just the
Speaker 1: right fit from the very very beginning, and from your side, Andrea,
Speaker 1: because this happened, the story happened to Jen, You've come
Speaker 1: in from a different place. What was it like for
Speaker 1: you to be the storyteller of Jen's very very real
Speaker 1: trauma and pain. I felt like it was extremely important
Speaker 1: to handle her story with care because when I first
Speaker 1: met Jen, she was barely a year outside of everything
Speaker 1: that had happened outside of her husband being arrested. When
Speaker 1: I had my first phone call with Jen, the thing
Speaker 1: that struck me the most was I felt this fear
Speaker 1: of this idea of you could be living with this
Speaker 1: stranger beside you. I could hear the pain in her
Speaker 1: voice and kind of met her at a time where
Speaker 1: her life had essentially crumbled and she was just looking
Speaker 1: to express her story in any way so that she
Speaker 1: could share what she went through with the world. So
Speaker 1: it was important to me to honor that and handle
Speaker 1: it with care and really get it out there so
Speaker 1: people could hear it. So I mean you ality, Letting
Speaker 1: a Stone is an artypical narcissism story. Two people, one
Speaker 1: person feels gaslighted and they kind of dislike each other.
Speaker 1: This was very different. Having listened to Betrayal, and anyone
Speaker 1: listening today's podcast, please go listen to Betrayal after this
Speaker 1: if you haven't to really get the depth of Jen's story,
Speaker 1: because we won't be able to do it full credit
Speaker 1: here because it's a multi episode podcast. This is a
Speaker 1: story of, like you said, everything was great and then
Speaker 1: it literally went off a cliff. This was not gradual.
Speaker 1: That's what's so unique about this. Can you give us
Speaker 1: almost the brief version of how the two of you
Speaker 1: met and how your your relationship took flight. Spence and
Speaker 1: I met in college and we had this amazing relationship.
Speaker 1: He was my college sweetheart. There was nothing wrong with it.
Speaker 1: We broke up, though, and went our separate ways, but
Speaker 1: always not in a negative way. We didn't have any
Speaker 1: animosity toward one another, and then the fairy tale happened.
Speaker 1: I was living in Los Angeles, he was in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: He reached out to me. We both happened to be
Speaker 1: in New York City at the same time. We reconnected
Speaker 1: on a wintry night in Bryant Park, and that was it.
Speaker 1: We just knew we were meant to be. It was
Speaker 1: I believe in soulmates, and I really believed he was mine,
Speaker 1: and I believe that he thought I was his as well.
Speaker 1: So we were married. A year later. I moved to
Speaker 1: Georgia and everything was great. I really had a wonderful
Speaker 1: marriage and didn't know the other side to him, the
Speaker 1: dark side, which I found out seven years into the
Speaker 1: relationship when he was arrested. You were married six years
Speaker 1: or a year of dating and then a year of
Speaker 1: a relationship and then six years married. Yes, okay, a
Speaker 1: year is not a short period of time to get
Speaker 1: to know someone. That's actually not an unusual length of
Speaker 1: time to get to know someone, get engaged, get married,
Speaker 1: So it's not like this was rushed and you already
Speaker 1: knew him. So this was, you know, sort of picking
Speaker 1: up with somebody already knowing some of their backstory in
Speaker 1: their background. Yes, my family knew him. Everybody trusted him,
Speaker 1: like he was just the last person that you wouldn't
Speaker 1: think you could trust. What was that marriage? Like? It
Speaker 1: was wonderful. We live in this tiny town. We opened
Speaker 1: a wine bar together. He came home every night saying hi, wife,
Speaker 1: just always excited. He left me an out every single
Speaker 1: morning next to the coffee pot. He was always checking in.
Speaker 1: It was a really beautiful relationship, amazing and unlike any
Speaker 1: story we have heard on navigating narcissism. Which is why
Speaker 1: I mean everyone, I dropped my phone as I listened
Speaker 1: to her podcast. That is how compelling. So alright, you meet,
Speaker 1: you get engaged, and you get married six years happy
Speaker 1: notes what happened? I came home one day and he
Speaker 1: was sitting on the couch shaking his head. I saw
Speaker 1: a search warrant. I noticed that our front door was
Speaker 1: kicked in. The police had been there, and on the
Speaker 1: search warrant it said sexual assault and student. And we
Speaker 1: only had about it seemed twenty minutes before the police
Speaker 1: showed up again to arrest him, and I confronted him,
Speaker 1: is this true? I just couldn't believe it. I just
Speaker 1: was pacing back and forth because your reality is just
Speaker 1: shape in at that moment, you don't really believe what's happening.
Speaker 1: And he said, yes, it's true. He of course lied though,
Speaker 1: said it only happened three times. Come to find out,
Speaker 1: it was over a two two and a half year period,
Speaker 1: and then the police came and arrested him, And honestly,
Speaker 1: I haven't seen him since he went to prison for
Speaker 1: four years. First of all, we talked about this word betrayal,
Speaker 1: and it speaks to what a continuum this word is on. Right,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people use the word betrayal
Speaker 1: of you chose to go to your sister's birthday party
Speaker 1: instead of dinner with me, I feel betrayed. Well, okay,
Speaker 1: now there's there's small beat betrayal, and there's big beat betrayal.
Speaker 1: And this is all caps betrayal. What the search warrant
Speaker 1: and the arrest was for. It wasn't embezzling money from
Speaker 1: the school he worked at. It wasn't that. It was
Speaker 1: this this thing that not only was a betrayal that
Speaker 1: he had this double life, but it was a betrayal
Speaker 1: of your relationship, of the intimacy you had in the relationship,
Speaker 1: So that is almost a seismic event no one could
Speaker 1: get their head around. But this is one of the
Speaker 1: things that struck me as I listened to your podcast.
Speaker 1: In your podcast, as you told the story, I did
Speaker 1: not hear a single red flag I was listening. Would
Speaker 1: you agree with that? Am I missing something? Were there
Speaker 1: red flags? No? Absolutely not. And I mean I've gone
Speaker 1: back in my head and tried to find some little
Speaker 1: tiny piece that I might have missed, and I just
Speaker 1: I honestly did not see it. And that was such
Speaker 1: a huge part of our project was to emphasize that point,
Speaker 1: and so much of my dedication to Jen was too.
Speaker 1: I mean we first met, she was like, I didn't
Speaker 1: see anything, and I'm so afraid that no one's gonna
Speaker 1: believe me, and I'm so afraid that people are going
Speaker 1: to judge the fact that I didn't see anything as
Speaker 1: if there were things to be seen. And it was
Speaker 1: our one of our driving goals and our purpose was
Speaker 1: to really land and at that place where there were
Speaker 1: no red flags and she did not know and that
Speaker 1: happens often, it really does. And this is to me,
Speaker 1: Jen Andrea, I know that one of the drivers for
Speaker 1: you making this podcast was to help other people. I
Speaker 1: have to say one of the things you're helping people
Speaker 1: most with is showing a story without red flags, because
Speaker 1: there's something that almost becomes caricatured. Oh there's always red flags,
Speaker 1: and it's you didn't see them, and that's because you
Speaker 1: have legacy issues and now you see them. And everyone
Speaker 1: has red flags, but there aren't always red flags. And
Speaker 1: I think this is so important to lifting blame for
Speaker 1: survivors who will often say, what did I miss? More
Speaker 1: than they blame themselves, I must be foolish, and I'll say, listen,
Speaker 1: unless you're holding back from me as your shrink, I'm
Speaker 1: telling you there were no red flags, and by you
Speaker 1: sharing your story in this way, I think that's actually
Speaker 1: one of the most profound parts of the story, was
Speaker 1: that there were no red flags. And there are a
Speaker 1: lot of survivors out there that literally it's no red flags,
Speaker 1: no red flags, and then the whole thing goes off
Speaker 1: the cliff. And that's why I was so interested in
Speaker 1: speaking with you about this, because talking about narcissism, I
Speaker 1: didn't see that in Spence, you know, and maybe he
Speaker 1: was a covert narcissist, but on the outside, my family,
Speaker 1: my friends, our community just all thought he was this
Speaker 1: wonderful man that would do anything for you. One of
Speaker 1: the things I wanted to ask you today so you're
Speaker 1: leading me to that question, was so I listened to
Speaker 1: the podcast early episodes, no red flags. Then I literally
Speaker 1: felt it in my chest when you said the scene
Speaker 1: came home, search, warrant, arrest, what it was for. If
Speaker 1: I felt the air sucked out of my lungs, I
Speaker 1: can't imagine what your experience was and even what people
Speaker 1: have had similar not exactly the same, but other betrayal
Speaker 1: experiences will feel it too. But as the episodes went
Speaker 1: on and we saw the scope and scale of what
Speaker 1: he had done, the lies, the number of betray else
Speaker 1: even after the call you have with him when he's
Speaker 1: in jail, all of which I'd like to touch base on.
Speaker 1: What I never heard once was the word narcissism. And
Speaker 1: I was waiting. I'm like, Okay, they're gonna get to
Speaker 1: it and they're going to talk about some of the words,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, huh, so I get before the arrest.
Speaker 1: What surprised me was never hearing that frame used afterwards.
Speaker 1: Can you shed some light on that, Tray do you
Speaker 1: want to talk about that. Yeah, I think it was
Speaker 1: really important for us to focus on the victim's journey
Speaker 1: and spend less time diagnosing him and what he was
Speaker 1: all about, and more about the impact and the different
Speaker 1: experiences they had with the spencer they interacted with, because
Speaker 1: the spencer that Jen interacted with was very different than
Speaker 1: the sexual assault victim, than his band and Air National
Speaker 1: Guard bandmate. Every person dealt with a different version of him,
Speaker 1: and I do think that there are seeds of narcissism
Speaker 1: driving all of those interactions. But it was so important
Speaker 1: for us to just spend time and really experience and
Speaker 1: unpack because Jen's journey was trying to figure out who
Speaker 1: is this man that I married and really at face
Speaker 1: follow is really meeting with people who knew the different
Speaker 1: sides of him. And that was really the goal for her,
Speaker 1: as to say, I just need to see all the
Speaker 1: many faces, right, I need to see the different portraits
Speaker 1: and then really get to the bottom of how and
Speaker 1: just that reconciliation. And that was more important to us.
Speaker 1: But a lot of what we wanted to showcase and
Speaker 1: really dig into was grooming, and I haven't heard a
Speaker 1: lot done on grooming and we felt like we really
Speaker 1: needed to spend time with that, and that's where we focused.
Speaker 1: We will be right back with this conversation with Jen
Speaker 1: and Andrea. There's an old thing. I'm gonna get it wrong,
Speaker 1: but I use it a lot. It's an old African
Speaker 1: proverb the tale of the hunt is always told by
Speaker 1: the hunter and never for the lion. And I think
Speaker 1: in this case, you're the lion. It took me a
Speaker 1: minute when I first read that problem, like, wait, is
Speaker 1: that a lion fierce? But no, the lion is being
Speaker 1: stalked by the hunter, and we always hear the hunter's
Speaker 1: point of view. So I really really resonate with what
Speaker 1: you're saying is how do we tell survivor stories by
Speaker 1: keeping the lens on the survivor? And so I respect
Speaker 1: that and I understand that, and I'm curious because goodness knows,
Speaker 1: there's spent so much you know, buzz and people talking
Speaker 1: about the podcast after you put it out there and
Speaker 1: people were commenting on it. Did you get that question
Speaker 1: where people saying, well, Spencer a narcissist and Spencer sounds
Speaker 1: like a narcissist. Was it ever coming up or where
Speaker 1: people also focused on the survivor experience. I feel like
Speaker 1: he is so many other things before he's the narcissist.
Speaker 1: I can't diagnose him obviously, there's some sociopathic tendencies there,
Speaker 1: or there's sex addiction, and there's all this stuff. I
Speaker 1: think now reading his correspondence with some of the other
Speaker 1: women and how he spoke with them and treated them,
Speaker 1: I think that's where I see the narcissism and him
Speaker 1: come out. I didn't see it in our lives. He
Speaker 1: just wasn't like that. He was just very caring and
Speaker 1: kind and like I said, would just, you know, give
Speaker 1: you the shirt off his back. So it was in
Speaker 1: those other correspondents though, that I did see that. That
Speaker 1: doesn't surprise me at all. And Andrea, you said something
Speaker 1: so important where you said we were trying to unpack
Speaker 1: them any portraits. I love how you said that, because
Speaker 1: that's a struggle many survivors have. Now. What happens in
Speaker 1: the sort of the more typical narcissistic relationship situation is
Speaker 1: a person is dealing with a terrible relationship for quite
Speaker 1: a long time, and then there may even be a
Speaker 1: ramp up in the betrayal. Right, there's an extra marital
Speaker 1: affair or financial abuse, words that can't be unsaid, that
Speaker 1: kind of thing. But it was already a bad scene.
Speaker 1: So the persons like, okay, now how I'm done? Right?
Speaker 1: So there was a takeoff ramp, there was a there
Speaker 1: was an incline to that point where people aren't shocked.
Speaker 1: They're sad, but they're not shocked, right, And that idea
Speaker 1: of the many portraits, because we always try to simplify
Speaker 1: it is to the good and the bad, the charming,
Speaker 1: charismatic versus the invalidating, gas sliding, manipulative. Right. What you're saying,
Speaker 1: and I think it's so on point, is that it's
Speaker 1: not as simple as good bad. It's actually these literally
Speaker 1: different experiences that all these people have of this person.
Speaker 1: And I think there's a richness you're bringing to this
Speaker 1: conversation about when we try to simply say, well, there's
Speaker 1: a personality style and some days are good and some
Speaker 1: days they're bad. But actually, yeah, that's true. But on
Speaker 1: top of that, many many other people are having very
Speaker 1: different experiences. And when you glue all those pieces together
Speaker 1: like a collage, then you have the full representation of
Speaker 1: this person who is probably quite unlike anything or anyone
Speaker 1: you actually believed you were in a seven year relationship
Speaker 1: with One of my hypotheses is that Spencer was getting
Speaker 1: so much validation in so many other places, the students,
Speaker 1: other women, people, He was doing other creative endeavors with that,
Speaker 1: unlike many narcissistic people who may not have that many
Speaker 1: tubs of narcissistic supply. Narcissists who don't get supplied get
Speaker 1: really tense and snappy and reactive and kind of mean.
Speaker 1: But if there's always validation coming in, it's almost like
Speaker 1: their tummy is always full, their psyche is always full.
Speaker 1: So in a primary relationship like a marriage, they can
Speaker 1: actually bring their a game because they're not looking to
Speaker 1: the marriage as the sole source of supply. They have
Speaker 1: so diversified their sources of supply that one is left
Speaker 1: with a really sweet person at home because they're getting
Speaker 1: at so many other places. And this is something we'll
Speaker 1: often see is that when a person is in a
Speaker 1: relationship where there's an infidelity, one of the things they'll
Speaker 1: say is what through me is my partner actually started
Speaker 1: becoming really nice. And I wanted to think it's because
Speaker 1: the relationship was going bad, it's actually because now I
Speaker 1: recognize they were in love. It just was they were
Speaker 1: falling in love with someone else that wasn't me, and
Speaker 1: all the positive emotion that came from that. And so
Speaker 1: I think that's an interesting way to view this because
Speaker 1: I think he was literally the most diversified portfolio of
Speaker 1: validation I think I've ever heard of in a narcissistic
Speaker 1: kind of a personality in my life. That makes so
Speaker 1: much sense. Absolutely, he could be one way the way
Speaker 1: that he wanted the world to see him with me,
Speaker 1: I kind of provided that perfect life scenario, and then
Speaker 1: go off be that other side of him that was
Speaker 1: a big part of him in secret. And I think
Speaker 1: that you also laid it out. I mean, you're a
Speaker 1: formidable woman, Jen, I've read your background, your work in
Speaker 1: the entertainment industry. You're amazing. And so you're this amazing,
Speaker 1: beautiful woman who so accomplished that he married and made
Speaker 1: this beautiful home with. That's its own form of validation.
Speaker 1: Above and beyond you this idea that I have this
Speaker 1: rock star life who's gorgeous and isn't you know we
Speaker 1: have this great house together, great life. That becomes a
Speaker 1: source of validation too. It doesn't feel good to be
Speaker 1: thought of that way, But it was a really important
Speaker 1: pillar and sort of the temple of Spence as it were.
Speaker 1: My session with Jen and Andrea will continue after this break.
Speaker 1: So we're gone over the cliff, search warrant, arrest, He's gone,
Speaker 1: and now you're left in this wreckage. And the original
Speaker 1: search warrant and arrest warrant were around sexual contact with
Speaker 1: a student. Okay, can you unpack what you learned about?
Speaker 1: Spencer's not just double life, It was like a quadruple
Speaker 1: or quintuple life. You know, what did you learn? Oh?
Speaker 1: My goodness? I mean, you know, first of all, he
Speaker 1: is escorted out of the house with leaving me thinking
Speaker 1: he's had this affair with the student and it was
Speaker 1: just three times. And honestly, I think at that point
Speaker 1: I didn't really even grasp the seriousness of it or
Speaker 1: how this student, this young person was manipulated by him.
Speaker 1: Come to find out, two days later, I get into
Speaker 1: his email and I'm seeing picture after picture after picture
Speaker 1: of all these different women. And I get into his
Speaker 1: email and discover, I don't know, probably seventy five different
Speaker 1: women that he was corresponding with. He was having to
Speaker 1: three year long relationships with several different people at the
Speaker 1: same time, not only just the student, but then so
Speaker 1: many adult women. I'm going to be a shrink for
Speaker 1: a minute. Can you tell me, Jen, what did it
Speaker 1: feel like as a woman to read all these emails,
Speaker 1: to see this stuff on the screen? You know, one
Speaker 1: was just how hurt I was. I felt like I
Speaker 1: had an elephant standing on my chest. There there was
Speaker 1: that hurt that I felt from the betrayal, because he
Speaker 1: knew how important marriage was to me. We talked about
Speaker 1: it all the time we were legal together. We were
Speaker 1: in it for the long haul forever. And then it
Speaker 1: was finding out reading the correspondence with these other women
Speaker 1: that just made me sick because the way he spoke
Speaker 1: to them, the language he used talking about choking someone
Speaker 1: or it was just disgusting. So there was that betrayal
Speaker 1: and that heartache I felt. But then there was just
Speaker 1: this shock and awe of living with someone I just
Speaker 1: didn't even know and never had heard that language from
Speaker 1: or anything. I guess I'm asking that even as a woman,
Speaker 1: like how did you get through your days? I am
Speaker 1: feeling your story. I'm thinking I wouldn't know if day
Speaker 1: was nice, I wouldn't know how to sleep I'd be
Speaker 1: afraid to wake up, my appetite would be shot, I
Speaker 1: would lose a hundred pounds. How did you get through
Speaker 1: your days? I told myself very early on, just take
Speaker 1: every moment with baby steps. If you can just literally
Speaker 1: put one foot in front of the other and make
Speaker 1: it to the end of the day, you know you
Speaker 1: can check that off. And I had a lot of
Speaker 1: support around me. I have an amazing community. My parents
Speaker 1: came to stay with me, so that helped. But then
Speaker 1: that kind of died away a little bit and I
Speaker 1: was left on my own, and I got a therapist
Speaker 1: because I knew I couldn't do this by myself. But
Speaker 1: I literally just kept telling myself, baby steps, just try
Speaker 1: to make it through today. Just try to make it
Speaker 1: through today. And that's how you got through, just one step.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's an extraordinary approaches. In some ways, it's
Speaker 1: exactly what somebody, a mental health practitioner would tell somebody.
Speaker 1: But many people say I can't do this, and you
Speaker 1: did it. And I think that's important for survivors to
Speaker 1: hear that that one step at a time, even if
Speaker 1: it's taking life five seconds at a time, actually actually matters.
Speaker 1: In this period of time when you're unearthing all these women.
Speaker 1: I know obviously the case that resulted in the arrest
Speaker 1: was with a minor. Were these women the seventy five women,
Speaker 1: were they miners? Were they adults? What was that? Was
Speaker 1: it mixed? The ones that I found were all adults.
Speaker 1: Fortunately some were younger and their twenties, somewhere, you know, fifty.
Speaker 1: It was a wide range. He did not have a
Speaker 1: specific type at all. As I went through this, it
Speaker 1: was the student that was the hardest pill to swallow,
Speaker 1: because he just manipulated her and lied to her like
Speaker 1: he did all the other women. This was her teacher,
Speaker 1: This is somebody that she's supposed to look up to.
Speaker 1: That was the most devastating thing. What's one thing to
Speaker 1: do it to an adult, but to do it to
Speaker 1: a child was just heart wrenching. Now, in all of
Speaker 1: this time, you don't have contact with Spence. I stayed
Speaker 1: in touch with him for until he was convicted. So
Speaker 1: he was arrested June two eighteen, convicted January two thousand nineteen.
Speaker 1: I had made a promise to him before he was
Speaker 1: arrested that I would stick by him. Not in a
Speaker 1: supportive way, but I just I don't know why I
Speaker 1: said that at the moment. I think it was I'm
Speaker 1: the wife. I'm supposed to stick by him, and so
Speaker 1: I did stay in communication with him through letters and
Speaker 1: phone calls for those first nine months, but then once
Speaker 1: the conviction happened, it happened the same day that he
Speaker 1: got our divorce papers, and that was it. Then I
Speaker 1: cut off all communication because if you listen to the
Speaker 1: last episode where I speak with him on the phone,
Speaker 1: he just continues to to spin the truth. And I
Speaker 1: don't think really understands what he did to these people,
Speaker 1: especially the student. I don't think he understands the gravity
Speaker 1: of his issues. No, And that's a tremendous lack of empathy, right,
Speaker 1: that's the core of empathy that I've acted in a
Speaker 1: way that may have harmed someone. So I am I.
Speaker 1: I can see that I harmed someone. This wasn't okay,
Speaker 1: and be aware of that in those months because you
Speaker 1: started looking at these emails and seeing what he had
Speaker 1: done pretty early in the game. Did you ask him,
Speaker 1: did you make inquiries of what is this? What happened?
Speaker 1: Who are all these people? Did you ask him? What
Speaker 1: kind of response did you get back? I would ask
Speaker 1: him You told this person and this person that you
Speaker 1: loved them, and his response was always oh I don't
Speaker 1: remember saying that, or oh I didn't really love them.
Speaker 1: It was just this deep denial. I would say that
Speaker 1: I knew the extent, I knew how much he communicated
Speaker 1: with these people, how long these relationships some of them were,
Speaker 1: and he just played it off like it really wasn't anything.
Speaker 1: So this wasn't all just emails and messages. These were
Speaker 1: real relationships, Yes, real relationships with many people, some like
Speaker 1: I said, three at a time, and they would be
Speaker 1: a year or two years long. This is where I think,
Speaker 1: I mean in a way I don't know. I don't
Speaker 1: want to see even sound like grudging admiration. I think
Speaker 1: I'm more puzzled than anything is how was he able
Speaker 1: to organize his time like the time management, the time management,
Speaker 1: I can't even keep a gallon of milk in the house,
Speaker 1: and this guy is like juggling all this and presenting
Speaker 1: as the devoted husband, the devoted teacher, the devoted you know,
Speaker 1: extended family member, all of that. What is what's chilling
Speaker 1: to me is that the compartmentalization that's required to do that.
Speaker 1: There's a reason you, Jen, and Andrea and I can't
Speaker 1: do this is because we couldn't compartmentalize empathy. Means you
Speaker 1: can't compartmentalize empathy is why you actually can't lie very
Speaker 1: well that the water breaches over. And so if you
Speaker 1: were doing something like this, people would detect a change
Speaker 1: in you. And the idea that nobody was seeing that
Speaker 1: change is not a deficit in the people around him.
Speaker 1: It is a statement on his capacity for compartmentalization totally.
Speaker 1: Did you think in those early months, Jen, that he
Speaker 1: knew he was doing something wrong? One thing that's interesting
Speaker 1: He said to me, I figured if you didn't know,
Speaker 1: then it wouldn't hurt you. So I think it was
Speaker 1: that he compartmentalized everything and he thought, well, if I
Speaker 1: keep this part really separate from Jennifer, then I'm not
Speaker 1: hurting her, right, which is almost very paternalistic when we
Speaker 1: think about it. It's being the puppet master. I can
Speaker 1: pull all the strings. I decide who gets to know what,
Speaker 1: and if I decide her not knowing me, and so
Speaker 1: she's not heard, then it's all okay. Those are the
Speaker 1: complex rationalizations that take place, you know, and we see
Speaker 1: this across a lot of patterns, not just in a
Speaker 1: sort of a narcissistic personality, but also even an addiction.
Speaker 1: If nobody sees me get high, or I never get
Speaker 1: high on the day of my kids soccer games, somehow
Speaker 1: there's some grand eraser in the sky that makes it okay.
Speaker 1: These are the defenses that keep these kinds of behaviors
Speaker 1: in place. So you learn all of this. He gets convicted.
Speaker 1: And how long after the conviction did you sit with
Speaker 1: Andrea and say, I think I want to share this
Speaker 1: story with the world. I think it was probably about
Speaker 1: eight months. Yeah, we got in contact, and again, I
Speaker 1: don't know what it was, but just something pushed me
Speaker 1: to say, I want to tell this story. There's so
Speaker 1: many insane components of it that I didn't want to
Speaker 1: sweep it under the rug. I wanted people to know
Speaker 1: that teacher of the Year or that eagle scout can
Speaker 1: be that manipulator and that person that can just destroy lives.
Speaker 1: Part of the reason that narcissistic people are so emboldened
Speaker 1: and enabled by the world is that we often fall
Speaker 1: for the window dressing, or maybe we're just perceptually lazy,
Speaker 1: whether it's being the proverbial ego scout or teacher of
Speaker 1: the year or employee of the year, or person who
Speaker 1: is revered in the community. That can buy a person
Speaker 1: a lot of social collateral and power and and unwillingness
Speaker 1: or at least a block by other people to seeing
Speaker 1: what the person is really about. People with antagonistic, manipulative,
Speaker 1: and dishonest interpersonal styles are like the wolf in sheep's clothing.
Speaker 1: We have to be willing to reshape our schemas of
Speaker 1: these people when their behavior is at odds with their
Speaker 1: shiny public persona. Here are my takeaways from my conversation
Speaker 1: with Jen and Andrea. There are not always red flags
Speaker 1: and narcissistic relationships. This is really important to remember because
Speaker 1: many survivors blame themselves for missing the signs and subsequently
Speaker 1: feeling foolish. Jen, her family, their friends, nobody they had
Speaker 1: contact with noticed any red flags, so when it all
Speaker 1: came out, she was shocked and startled, but didn't track
Speaker 1: it back to something she missed. It's easy to fall
Speaker 1: into believing that there are always red flags. Sometimes there aren't,
Speaker 1: or they are so subtle that we miss them. For
Speaker 1: a person with an antagonistic or a narcissistic personality, their
Speaker 1: behavior is worse when they are not getting enough validation.
Speaker 1: So when things in a narcissistic person's life are going well,
Speaker 1: they feel safe, they feel admired, they feel in control.
Speaker 1: Is often when people will say that they feel like
Speaker 1: their relationship with them is going great. This also leads
Speaker 1: that when that validation fades or the structures of deceit
Speaker 1: and manipulation come crashing down and entirely new person can emerge.
Speaker 1: This can confuse survivors to no end who don't understand
Speaker 1: where the shift comes from and can feel grief and
Speaker 1: shame at recognizing that the only reason the relationship was
Speaker 1: working was because the narcissistic person may have been getting
Speaker 1: their needs met in other places. A big thank you
Speaker 1: to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valen Jethrow, Ellen
Speaker 1: Rakaton and Dr Romeney de Vassela. And thank you to
Speaker 1: our producer Matthew Joe Owns, associate producer Mara Della Rosa,
Speaker 1: and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our
Speaker 1: editors and sound engineers Devin Donnahe and Calvin Bailiff.