1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. I'm Stephen Carol and 2 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: this is Here's Why, where we take one news story 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: and explain it in just a few minutes with our 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: experts here at Bloomberg. It's a central part of the 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: vision of the European Union being able to cross borders freely. 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: Schengen is an example of what it is. You have 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: seamless travels around the Shangen Area. The decision that we 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: have now finally taken to welcome Romania into our common 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:37,959 Speaker 1: Schengen Area was long. 10 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 2: Overdue and highly deserved. 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: So the passengers welcome to Bulgaria, Welcome to Shengen. This 12 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: is a really historic moment for Bulgaria. The Shanngen Area, 13 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: named after a village in Luxembourg on the border with 14 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: France and Germany, covers twenty five of the EU's twenty 15 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: seven member states, along with four neighboring countries, including Switzerland 16 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: and Norway. It's meant to mean that people can travel 17 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: between countries and the zone without having to show their passport, 18 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: but increased worries over migration and terrorism have seen some countries, 19 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: including Germany and France, reintroduce border checks, so here's why 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: the dream of a borderless Europe could be fading our 21 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: Germany correspond to Oliver Krook joins me. Now for more, Oliver, 22 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: a bit of context. First of all, how big a 23 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: deal is the Shngen Agreement. 24 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, Steven, I think this is an absolutely foundational idea 25 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 2: for Europe and something that began really as a sort 26 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: of economic alliance on coal and steel, and that has 27 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: evolved through the decades to be something much much bigger 28 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 2: and something that is developing more into a political block. 29 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 2: And at the center of that is the freedom of 30 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: movement of people. I mean, this is something that is 31 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,639 Speaker 2: not just also the EU. This is twenty nine countries 32 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 2: across Europe and we're talking about an area that covers 33 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 2: four hundred and fifty million people. There is nothing like 34 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: that in the world. There are, of course countries that 35 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: are bigger than that where people can move freely, but 36 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: there is no agreement like that where you can move 37 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 2: seamlessly without border checks, without customs, without anything between that 38 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: many countries. And it requires a huge amount of trust 39 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 2: because we obviously know how sensitive an issue immigration is 40 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: and always has been really through human history. So it's 41 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 2: a huge sort of achievement. It's continuing to expand. Croatia 42 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 2: joined last year. And you know, if you live in 43 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 2: the UK and or listening to this as I did, 44 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 2: you will also have had the experience of living in 45 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: a place with shangen and then without it. In the contrast, 46 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: it's the kind of thing that you don't really necessarily 47 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: think about until you don't have it anymore. 48 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: So who's taking a hiatus then from shangen and why? So? 49 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 2: Most recently and most dramatically, I think is Germany, which 50 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: has now put on bird border checks on all nine 51 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 2: of its land borders. Part of this is due to 52 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 2: intense political pressures that there are within Germany, where you 53 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 2: have the far right traditionally saying that they don't want 54 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 2: any more immigrants and that wanted to cracking down, but 55 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 2: you're hearing it also from the far left in Germany. 56 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 2: It has also been put into focus by the fact 57 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 2: that there have been a few sort of terror attacks. 58 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 2: One was committed by a sort of asylum seek or 59 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 2: who was rejected and not deported, and so this was 60 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 2: obviously a very emotive issue here in Germany. So there's 61 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 2: an extension to some of the border checks that already 62 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: existed with say poland the Czech Republic, Switzerland, but it's 63 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 2: also been in stated since the beginning, since twenty fifteen 64 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 2: with Austria. So today they've expanded it to France and 65 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: Mark into all of the land borders. They say that 66 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 2: they've turned back thirty thousand people that shouldn't have been 67 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 2: entering the country. They're trying to get a little bit 68 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: of a boost from that. But from the Schultz government 69 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 2: it was a significant step. 70 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: Is this a new idea that we would see European 71 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: country suspending the rules around free travel and bringing back 72 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: border controls. 73 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: So listen, you get it pretty regularly within Europe. It's 74 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 2: always temporary measures, and we should say that the German 75 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: ones are also technically temporary. There are only eight countries 76 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 2: that are using it right now, and it's generally for 77 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 2: a specific reason. Either there's been too many sort of 78 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: illegal immigrants, or there's some concern over that terrorism threat. 79 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: There's maybe a high profile event, say the Olympics in France. 80 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 2: They did it for that, but also Norway has done 81 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: it because they're concerned about their critical infrastructure after the 82 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,839 Speaker 2: war with Russia and if there could be any infiltration there, 83 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: so they've imposed them. Of course, there are a great 84 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: many around COVID. But also this puts into sort of 85 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: focus for the Shengen Area also the broader Shang'en border 86 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: and trying to put sort of restrictions there so that 87 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: you don't get as many illegal immigrants there. And this 88 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 2: is why, by the way, Turkey is such a key 89 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: partner to the EU and to the Shengen Area. 90 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: Do countries get any blowback from the EU when they 91 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: take steps like this. 92 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 2: Well, listen. Germany has got a lot of blowback overdoing this. 93 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 2: It got reprimands from Donald Tusk, one of the bordering 94 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 2: countries in Poland, which has exacerbated some frictions that were 95 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 2: already there, basically saying that it's entirely unacceptable, calling for 96 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 2: the sort of highest level of discussions over it. You've 97 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 2: heard the same thing from Austria. But you've also got 98 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: a lot of praise from some of the eurosceptics, from 99 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 2: Geared Wilders over in the Netherlands saying this is great, 100 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,799 Speaker 2: we should do this in the Netherlands or bond saying 101 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: welcome to the club. And it's very significant because it's 102 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: a government like Schultz's who is of course a Social 103 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: Democrat and who's all the party and their coalition are 104 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 2: generally pro migration. For them to take this step really 105 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: gives a lot of ammunition to some of the far 106 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: right parties. 107 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: So, as you've mentioned, currently, these border controls being reintroduced 108 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: are temporary measures. What's the risks that these temporary controls 109 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: become permanent? 110 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 2: Well, this is the thing is that you can sort 111 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 2: of continue to roll them over again and again, so 112 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 2: they wouldn't really become really permanent per se that would 113 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: obviously have a massive impact, but it's the fear of 114 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 2: sort of effective permanence where you just keep rolling them 115 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: out into sort of perpetuity. Like we mentioned earlier, there's 116 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 2: been border checks between Austria and Germany since twenty fifteen, 117 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 2: and the question is will it continue to roll it 118 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 2: over again and again and again. Germany has done this 119 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 2: for six months and there's a six month increments. But 120 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: again this is a risk that I could go further. 121 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: What's the big picture here, Alie, it's the Shagan area 122 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: really in danger. 123 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: So what I think is really interesting is that the 124 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 2: issue of migration, I think is in some ways a 125 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: much bigger conversation and it speaks to really a question 126 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: at the heart of Europe, and Schengen is kind of 127 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 2: a proxy, i think, for much a bigger philosophical question, 128 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 2: which is what is Europe? And that is a question 129 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 2: that has been asked since the beginning of the EU 130 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: over decades. It's taken very many different forms, whether it's 131 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 2: a focus on debt, the sovereign debt crisis that we 132 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 2: had back in twenty ten, twenty eleven with Greece, now 133 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 2: you have it sort of with immigration. And it comes 134 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 2: at a time when within Europe you have a lot 135 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 2: of euroskeptical parties that are closer to power than they've 136 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 2: ever been in the past, whether it's in France, whether 137 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 2: it's in Germany, within Italy as well, you have this 138 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: sort of the far right there. What is interesting is 139 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: many of these euroskeptical parties, though they are closer to power, 140 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 2: tend to be somewhat less skeptical. Right le Pen no 141 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,239 Speaker 2: longer really talks about Frexit, even the IFDA in Germany, 142 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 2: the far right are not really talking about aggressively campaigning 143 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: on leaving the EU. They might do a referendum, but 144 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 2: these are all questions that were much more active in 145 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 2: the past. But I think as time goes on and 146 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: Europe is confronted with blocks like China and the United States, 147 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 2: they're going to have to make a choice of what 148 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: Europe looks like going forward. And I think Drogy put 149 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 2: it very well when he's kind of dealing with the 150 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 2: sort of competitive this question in Europe. More broadly, he 151 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: says Europe faces a choice between exit, paralysis or integration, 152 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 2: and that is really the question that is before Europe today. 153 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: Thanks to our Germany correspondent Oliver Krook. For more explanations 154 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: like this from our team of twenty seven hundred journalists 155 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: and analysts around the world, search for Quicktake on the 156 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: Bloomberg website or Bloomberg Business app. I'm Stephen Carroll. Here's 157 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: why I'll be back next week with more. Thanks for listening.