WEBVTT - Is Shakespeare American? From Where There’s a Will

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin, Hey, last Archive listeners. This week, we're sharing a

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<v Speaker 1>preview of another Pushkin show, Where There's a Will, which

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<v Speaker 1>searches for the surprising places Shakespeare shows up. Outside the theater,

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<v Speaker 1>You'll hear Shakespeare doing rehabilitative work in a maximum security prison,

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<v Speaker 1>helping autistic kids to communicate, shaping religious observances even in

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<v Speaker 1>the oval office. Uncovered the way Shakespeare endures in our

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<v Speaker 1>modern society and what that says about us. In this preview,

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<v Speaker 1>the year is eighteen forty nine and a riot at

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<v Speaker 1>a Shakespearean theater has left dozens of people dead. But

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<v Speaker 1>as always with Shakespeare, there's more here than meets the eye.

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<v Speaker 1>Why did some people think he was important enough to

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<v Speaker 1>die for? How did the work of one man writing

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<v Speaker 1>in Victorian England capture the tensions brewing in a newly

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<v Speaker 1>independent America? And who, if anyone, is Shakespeare really for? Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>here comes the episode you can find Where There's a

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<v Speaker 1>Will wherever you get your podcasts. If I asked you

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<v Speaker 1>to close your eyes and tell me what Shakespeare sounds

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<v Speaker 1>like in your mind, what kind of sound would you

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<v Speaker 1>hear tapping of a pen on a paper? Oh? Yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>just like thinking of, you know, in the scribble of

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<v Speaker 1>like an old fountain pen, writing like it's very sharp sounding.

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<v Speaker 1>And if someone were speaking his lines, what would they

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<v Speaker 1>sound like to you? I feel like he would have

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<v Speaker 1>an English accent. Yeah, probably English was even English. He

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<v Speaker 1>was English, Okay, yeah, not American. Wouldn't sound America, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean it could have been like super proper English,

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<v Speaker 1>like what an english Man would say, like a scholar.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you imagine a time in America where people would

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<v Speaker 1>be willing to die over Shakespeare? I believe in disagreement.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's a good thing. I think people should

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<v Speaker 1>test their views and talk to other people and so on.

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<v Speaker 1>So violence we draw the line, not violent, not violence.

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<v Speaker 1>It's hard to imagine that, you know, art could inspire

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<v Speaker 1>people to violence like that. It's true there was a

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<v Speaker 1>time in America when Shakespeare was important enough to die

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<v Speaker 1>for the year eighteen forty nine. America has been independent

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<v Speaker 1>for less than a century. The place New York City

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<v Speaker 1>than just like now. It's the great melting pot of

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<v Speaker 1>American life. English culture still looms large, especially in upper

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<v Speaker 1>class New York. But there's also a huge Irish population,

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<v Speaker 1>heavily working class, and they loathe the English and everything

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<v Speaker 1>they represent. Theater is the popular art form of the day.

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<v Speaker 1>Rich people, poor people, refine rough Everybody loves to go

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<v Speaker 1>see a performance, and there's a lot of Shakespeare for sure. Downtown.

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<v Speaker 1>The greatest American actor of the day is at work.

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<v Speaker 1>His name is Edwin Forrest. He was born in Philadelphia,

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<v Speaker 1>just like the country, and he's a living, breathing symbol

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<v Speaker 1>of the American spirit. He's big and handsome, athletic and virile,

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<v Speaker 1>and he's famous for a physical acting style that people

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<v Speaker 1>find unbelievably lifelike. Forrest is in residence playing Shakespeare and

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<v Speaker 1>other roles at the Broadway Theater on New York's lowery Side.

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<v Speaker 1>He's famous for his Macbeth. Is this a dagger which

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<v Speaker 1>I see before me? The handle toward my hand? Come?

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<v Speaker 1>Let me clutch thee? A few blocks north, the Astor

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<v Speaker 1>Place Opera House is waiting for a Macbeth of its own.

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<v Speaker 1>The famous English actor William Charles McCready is on an

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<v Speaker 1>international tour, and he happens to be Forest's greatest rival.

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<v Speaker 1>McCready is everything Forest is not classical, elegant, a little fragile,

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<v Speaker 1>a little effeet pity like a naked new ball. Babe

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<v Speaker 1>shall breath the horrid deed, and every DearS shall drown

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<v Speaker 1>the wind. He's got a following two, the uptown crowd,

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<v Speaker 1>and certainly not Forest's Irish fan base. The opera house

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<v Speaker 1>is brand new, its tickets are really pricey, and its

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<v Speaker 1>vibe is deliberately poshed. It's intended for the Tufts, the

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<v Speaker 1>upper class New Yorkers who are ritzier than the folks

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<v Speaker 1>on Lower Broadway. McCready is known for his Hamlet, and

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<v Speaker 1>for one moment of it, in particular, at the point

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<v Speaker 1>in the play when Hamlet announces that he's going to

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<v Speaker 1>feign madness, McCready takes out a big handkerchief and he

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<v Speaker 1>does this crazy dance. English audiences go nuts. Forest sails

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<v Speaker 1>to England to see it, and he gets himself a

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<v Speaker 1>prime seat at McCready's theater. When the handkerchief dance comes along,

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<v Speaker 1>Forrest stands up and he starts hissing loud. The feud

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<v Speaker 1>is on. It is a tale told by an idiot

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<v Speaker 1>toned by any sound and fury. Signify signify. I'm Barry Edelstein,

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<v Speaker 1>Artistic director of the Old Globe in San Diego, one

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<v Speaker 1>of the countries leading Shakespeare theaters, and this is where

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<v Speaker 1>there's a will finding Shakespeare from the globe and pushkin industries.

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<v Speaker 1>Our show discovers Shakespeare in all sorts of unexpected places

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<v Speaker 1>and asks what he's doing there and what his presence

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<v Speaker 1>means about him and about us. My companion on this

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<v Speaker 1>search for Old William is a friend and colleague with

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<v Speaker 1>their own deep interest in Shakespeare, m Weinstein. M's a

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<v Speaker 1>director and writer who works on television and film and stage,

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<v Speaker 1>and Shakespeare has been a big part of their life.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey Am, hey Barry, thanks for having me. This Forest

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<v Speaker 1>McCready rivalry is really juicy stuff. People don't know much

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<v Speaker 1>about it or about how much Shakespeare meant at that time.

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<v Speaker 1>So the forest and McCready thing gets it. Something that's

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<v Speaker 1>been a theme through my thirty year career working on

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<v Speaker 1>Shakespeare in America, something that you and I have discussed

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<v Speaker 1>a lot, and that is the notion that there is

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<v Speaker 1>such a thing as an American Shakespeare, and that American

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<v Speaker 1>Shakespeare has a purity and a truth and a power

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<v Speaker 1>all its own. I'm right there with you, Berry, and

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<v Speaker 1>that notion isn't unique to us or to our moment

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<v Speaker 1>in American culture. It feels like theatermakers started searching for

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<v Speaker 1>it from the very time that this country was born.

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<v Speaker 1>But up until Edwin Forrest in the eighteen forties, no

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<v Speaker 1>single artist had planted the stars and stripes so deep

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<v Speaker 1>into the complete works of Shakespeare. And in a way,

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<v Speaker 1>he kind of changed the game, right. He invented an

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<v Speaker 1>acting style that somehow managed to express this country and

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<v Speaker 1>its energy and its values. He did, but ironically, he

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<v Speaker 1>discovered that there was no writer who allowed him to

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<v Speaker 1>be more American than William Shakespeare. It's so fascinating, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>But back to the story. So Forrest went to England

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<v Speaker 1>to hiss at McCready, and now they're both playing Shakespeare

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<v Speaker 1>in New York within blocks of each other. Okay, So

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<v Speaker 1>Forrest's fans buy up a block of seats at astor place,

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<v Speaker 1>and when McCready starts to perform, they interrupt him, throwing

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<v Speaker 1>vegetables and screaming. The violence starts to get out of hand,

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<v Speaker 1>and patrons run out of the theater. Outside they bang

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<v Speaker 1>into more a Forest's crew who've marched up from downtown.

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<v Speaker 1>They're throwing rocks that they've grabbed from a quarry nearby

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<v Speaker 1>windows shatter. The chaos escalates. Ten thousand people are jammed

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<v Speaker 1>into this one tight section of Lower Manhattan. The situation

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<v Speaker 1>gets so volatile that National Guard troops pour onto the scene.

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<v Speaker 1>They fire warning shots, but they don't help, so they

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<v Speaker 1>open fire on the Crown. People fall, There's blood the

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<v Speaker 1>times over. Dozens of people are injured and twenty two

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<v Speaker 1>are dead in the streets. It's the worst riot in

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<v Speaker 1>the young country's history, and its centers on whether or

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<v Speaker 1>not Shakespeare is American. M It's an amazing story, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's wild and it's crazy to me that, even though

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<v Speaker 1>it was a total cataclysm one hundred and seventy five

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<v Speaker 1>years ago, the Aster Place riots kind of forgotten today. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>the interview clips that open this episode or proof of that,

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<v Speaker 1>we recorded them on Aster Place. And if I'm not mistaken,

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<v Speaker 1>the only living legacy of the riot is the New

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<v Speaker 1>York City's mayor at the time ordered the police department

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<v Speaker 1>to permanently arm itself as a cautionary measure. The force

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<v Speaker 1>that patrols the streets of the Big Apple today can

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<v Speaker 1>trace its considerable firepower directly to a dispute over Macbeth

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<v Speaker 1>that is absolutely true. But Edwin Forrest's legacy lives on,

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<v Speaker 1>and that is what I want to explore in this

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<v Speaker 1>episode of Where There's a Will. Every actor who speaks

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<v Speaker 1>Iambic pentameter on the stage of The Old Globe or

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<v Speaker 1>any other Shakespeare's age in this country is a direct

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<v Speaker 1>descendant of Forest and m As you know, for actors

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<v Speaker 1>in Shakespeare, being American is a thing. Just like Forrest

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<v Speaker 1>was told by the establishment that no matter what he did,

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<v Speaker 1>McCready would always be better at Shakespeare because he was English.

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<v Speaker 1>So his descendants in our era hear the same thing.

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<v Speaker 1>When I started my career in Shakespeare thirty years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>i heard it American Shakespeare was less than Shakespeare was English.

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<v Speaker 1>His stories are English, his references are London and Warwickshire.

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<v Speaker 1>The English just do him better. Oh totally. I mean

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<v Speaker 1>I had Shakespeare teachers who spoke in a British accent

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<v Speaker 1>even though they're from America. I mean I had actors

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<v Speaker 1>show up on first days of rehearsal doing sort of

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<v Speaker 1>elevated British accents. I'm fascinated by how these old prejudices

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<v Speaker 1>continue to resonate through our theater, in our acting culture.

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<v Speaker 1>Even in our thinking about Shakespeare Old Globe. The theater

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<v Speaker 1>I run has a professional actor training conservatory, and its

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<v Speaker 1>mission is to nurture the Edwin forests of tomorrow. I

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<v Speaker 1>had a conversation with the director of our program and

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<v Speaker 1>with one of his wonderful students about how they connect

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<v Speaker 1>their americanness to Shakespeare. We'll get to their stories after

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<v Speaker 1>a quick break