1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:21,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin, Hey, last Archive listeners. This week, we're sharing a 2 00:00:21,236 --> 00:00:24,596 Speaker 1: preview of another Pushkin show, Where There's a Will, which 3 00:00:24,596 --> 00:00:28,236 Speaker 1: searches for the surprising places Shakespeare shows up. Outside the theater, 4 00:00:28,756 --> 00:00:32,516 Speaker 1: You'll hear Shakespeare doing rehabilitative work in a maximum security prison, 5 00:00:32,876 --> 00:00:37,116 Speaker 1: helping autistic kids to communicate, shaping religious observances even in 6 00:00:37,156 --> 00:00:40,836 Speaker 1: the oval office. Uncovered the way Shakespeare endures in our 7 00:00:40,876 --> 00:00:44,556 Speaker 1: modern society and what that says about us. In this preview, 8 00:00:44,756 --> 00:00:47,236 Speaker 1: the year is eighteen forty nine and a riot at 9 00:00:47,236 --> 00:00:50,876 Speaker 1: a Shakespearean theater has left dozens of people dead. But 10 00:00:50,996 --> 00:00:53,716 Speaker 1: as always with Shakespeare, there's more here than meets the eye. 11 00:00:54,276 --> 00:00:56,356 Speaker 1: Why did some people think he was important enough to 12 00:00:56,396 --> 00:00:59,476 Speaker 1: die for? How did the work of one man writing 13 00:00:59,476 --> 00:01:02,676 Speaker 1: in Victorian England capture the tensions brewing in a newly 14 00:01:02,676 --> 00:01:09,036 Speaker 1: independent America? And who, if anyone, is Shakespeare really for? Okay, 15 00:01:09,316 --> 00:01:11,756 Speaker 1: here comes the episode you can find Where There's a 16 00:01:11,796 --> 00:01:17,676 Speaker 1: Will wherever you get your podcasts. If I asked you 17 00:01:17,716 --> 00:01:19,636 Speaker 1: to close your eyes and tell me what Shakespeare sounds 18 00:01:19,676 --> 00:01:22,036 Speaker 1: like in your mind, what kind of sound would you 19 00:01:22,076 --> 00:01:25,516 Speaker 1: hear tapping of a pen on a paper? Oh? Yeah, yeah, 20 00:01:25,636 --> 00:01:28,476 Speaker 1: just like thinking of, you know, in the scribble of 21 00:01:28,516 --> 00:01:31,676 Speaker 1: like an old fountain pen, writing like it's very sharp sounding. 22 00:01:31,716 --> 00:01:34,076 Speaker 1: And if someone were speaking his lines, what would they 23 00:01:34,076 --> 00:01:36,796 Speaker 1: sound like to you? I feel like he would have 24 00:01:36,836 --> 00:01:40,116 Speaker 1: an English accent. Yeah, probably English was even English. He 25 00:01:40,196 --> 00:01:43,076 Speaker 1: was English, Okay, yeah, not American. Wouldn't sound America, yeah, 26 00:01:43,076 --> 00:01:45,436 Speaker 1: I mean it could have been like super proper English, 27 00:01:45,556 --> 00:01:48,476 Speaker 1: like what an english Man would say, like a scholar. 28 00:01:48,756 --> 00:01:51,236 Speaker 1: Can you imagine a time in America where people would 29 00:01:51,236 --> 00:01:55,196 Speaker 1: be willing to die over Shakespeare? I believe in disagreement. 30 00:01:55,276 --> 00:01:58,476 Speaker 1: I think it's a good thing. I think people should 31 00:01:59,036 --> 00:02:02,036 Speaker 1: test their views and talk to other people and so on. 32 00:02:03,196 --> 00:02:06,916 Speaker 1: So violence we draw the line, not violent, not violence. 33 00:02:06,996 --> 00:02:10,396 Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine that, you know, art could inspire 34 00:02:10,476 --> 00:02:17,116 Speaker 1: people to violence like that. It's true there was a 35 00:02:17,156 --> 00:02:21,276 Speaker 1: time in America when Shakespeare was important enough to die 36 00:02:21,356 --> 00:02:28,156 Speaker 1: for the year eighteen forty nine. America has been independent 37 00:02:28,236 --> 00:02:31,796 Speaker 1: for less than a century. The place New York City 38 00:02:31,916 --> 00:02:34,796 Speaker 1: than just like now. It's the great melting pot of 39 00:02:34,836 --> 00:02:40,916 Speaker 1: American life. English culture still looms large, especially in upper 40 00:02:40,956 --> 00:02:45,436 Speaker 1: class New York. But there's also a huge Irish population, 41 00:02:46,076 --> 00:02:50,916 Speaker 1: heavily working class, and they loathe the English and everything 42 00:02:50,916 --> 00:02:55,676 Speaker 1: they represent. Theater is the popular art form of the day. 43 00:02:56,236 --> 00:03:00,996 Speaker 1: Rich people, poor people, refine rough Everybody loves to go 44 00:03:01,076 --> 00:03:08,716 Speaker 1: see a performance, and there's a lot of Shakespeare for sure. Downtown. 45 00:03:09,196 --> 00:03:11,836 Speaker 1: The greatest American actor of the day is at work. 46 00:03:12,196 --> 00:03:16,356 Speaker 1: His name is Edwin Forrest. He was born in Philadelphia, 47 00:03:16,596 --> 00:03:20,316 Speaker 1: just like the country, and he's a living, breathing symbol 48 00:03:20,396 --> 00:03:25,836 Speaker 1: of the American spirit. He's big and handsome, athletic and virile, 49 00:03:26,196 --> 00:03:29,596 Speaker 1: and he's famous for a physical acting style that people 50 00:03:29,676 --> 00:03:35,236 Speaker 1: find unbelievably lifelike. Forrest is in residence playing Shakespeare and 51 00:03:35,356 --> 00:03:38,796 Speaker 1: other roles at the Broadway Theater on New York's lowery Side. 52 00:03:39,396 --> 00:03:44,636 Speaker 1: He's famous for his Macbeth. Is this a dagger which 53 00:03:44,676 --> 00:03:48,836 Speaker 1: I see before me? The handle toward my hand? Come? 54 00:03:48,956 --> 00:03:52,716 Speaker 1: Let me clutch thee? A few blocks north, the Astor 55 00:03:52,756 --> 00:03:55,796 Speaker 1: Place Opera House is waiting for a Macbeth of its own. 56 00:03:57,276 --> 00:04:00,636 Speaker 1: The famous English actor William Charles McCready is on an 57 00:04:00,636 --> 00:04:05,716 Speaker 1: international tour, and he happens to be Forest's greatest rival. 58 00:04:06,796 --> 00:04:12,676 Speaker 1: McCready is everything Forest is not classical, elegant, a little fragile, 59 00:04:13,036 --> 00:04:19,756 Speaker 1: a little effeet pity like a naked new ball. Babe 60 00:04:19,996 --> 00:04:27,196 Speaker 1: shall breath the horrid deed, and every DearS shall drown 61 00:04:27,316 --> 00:04:31,916 Speaker 1: the wind. He's got a following two, the uptown crowd, 62 00:04:31,996 --> 00:04:36,756 Speaker 1: and certainly not Forest's Irish fan base. The opera house 63 00:04:36,836 --> 00:04:39,916 Speaker 1: is brand new, its tickets are really pricey, and its 64 00:04:40,036 --> 00:04:45,396 Speaker 1: vibe is deliberately poshed. It's intended for the Tufts, the 65 00:04:45,516 --> 00:04:48,116 Speaker 1: upper class New Yorkers who are ritzier than the folks 66 00:04:48,116 --> 00:04:53,316 Speaker 1: on Lower Broadway. McCready is known for his Hamlet, and 67 00:04:53,436 --> 00:04:56,036 Speaker 1: for one moment of it, in particular, at the point 68 00:04:56,076 --> 00:04:58,596 Speaker 1: in the play when Hamlet announces that he's going to 69 00:04:58,716 --> 00:05:03,116 Speaker 1: feign madness, McCready takes out a big handkerchief and he 70 00:05:03,196 --> 00:05:09,636 Speaker 1: does this crazy dance. English audiences go nuts. Forest sails 71 00:05:09,676 --> 00:05:11,756 Speaker 1: to England to see it, and he gets himself a 72 00:05:11,836 --> 00:05:15,716 Speaker 1: prime seat at McCready's theater. When the handkerchief dance comes along, 73 00:05:16,076 --> 00:05:22,996 Speaker 1: Forrest stands up and he starts hissing loud. The feud 74 00:05:23,836 --> 00:05:29,676 Speaker 1: is on. It is a tale told by an idiot 75 00:05:31,396 --> 00:05:58,556 Speaker 1: toned by any sound and fury. Signify signify. I'm Barry Edelstein, 76 00:05:58,836 --> 00:06:01,636 Speaker 1: Artistic director of the Old Globe in San Diego, one 77 00:06:01,636 --> 00:06:04,676 Speaker 1: of the countries leading Shakespeare theaters, and this is where 78 00:06:04,756 --> 00:06:08,916 Speaker 1: there's a will finding Shakespeare from the globe and pushkin industries. 79 00:06:09,716 --> 00:06:12,876 Speaker 1: Our show discovers Shakespeare in all sorts of unexpected places 80 00:06:13,236 --> 00:06:16,316 Speaker 1: and asks what he's doing there and what his presence 81 00:06:16,316 --> 00:06:22,316 Speaker 1: means about him and about us. My companion on this 82 00:06:22,396 --> 00:06:25,916 Speaker 1: search for Old William is a friend and colleague with 83 00:06:25,996 --> 00:06:30,356 Speaker 1: their own deep interest in Shakespeare, m Weinstein. M's a 84 00:06:30,516 --> 00:06:34,956 Speaker 1: director and writer who works on television and film and stage, 85 00:06:35,356 --> 00:06:38,196 Speaker 1: and Shakespeare has been a big part of their life. 86 00:06:38,556 --> 00:06:42,796 Speaker 1: Hey Am, hey Barry, thanks for having me. This Forest 87 00:06:42,956 --> 00:06:47,076 Speaker 1: McCready rivalry is really juicy stuff. People don't know much 88 00:06:47,116 --> 00:06:50,036 Speaker 1: about it or about how much Shakespeare meant at that time. 89 00:06:50,596 --> 00:06:54,076 Speaker 1: So the forest and McCready thing gets it. Something that's 90 00:06:54,156 --> 00:06:57,596 Speaker 1: been a theme through my thirty year career working on 91 00:06:57,636 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 1: Shakespeare in America, something that you and I have discussed 92 00:07:01,436 --> 00:07:04,276 Speaker 1: a lot, and that is the notion that there is 93 00:07:04,356 --> 00:07:08,276 Speaker 1: such a thing as an American Shakespeare, and that American 94 00:07:08,356 --> 00:07:11,916 Speaker 1: Shakespeare has a purity and a truth and a power 95 00:07:12,196 --> 00:07:14,556 Speaker 1: all its own. I'm right there with you, Berry, and 96 00:07:14,796 --> 00:07:17,596 Speaker 1: that notion isn't unique to us or to our moment 97 00:07:17,596 --> 00:07:20,956 Speaker 1: in American culture. It feels like theatermakers started searching for 98 00:07:21,076 --> 00:07:23,876 Speaker 1: it from the very time that this country was born. 99 00:07:24,196 --> 00:07:27,716 Speaker 1: But up until Edwin Forrest in the eighteen forties, no 100 00:07:27,916 --> 00:07:31,756 Speaker 1: single artist had planted the stars and stripes so deep 101 00:07:31,956 --> 00:07:34,556 Speaker 1: into the complete works of Shakespeare. And in a way, 102 00:07:34,596 --> 00:07:37,076 Speaker 1: he kind of changed the game, right. He invented an 103 00:07:37,076 --> 00:07:41,076 Speaker 1: acting style that somehow managed to express this country and 104 00:07:41,156 --> 00:07:44,556 Speaker 1: its energy and its values. He did, but ironically, he 105 00:07:44,716 --> 00:07:47,756 Speaker 1: discovered that there was no writer who allowed him to 106 00:07:47,796 --> 00:07:52,476 Speaker 1: be more American than William Shakespeare. It's so fascinating, Okay, 107 00:07:52,476 --> 00:07:55,316 Speaker 1: But back to the story. So Forrest went to England 108 00:07:55,356 --> 00:07:58,836 Speaker 1: to hiss at McCready, and now they're both playing Shakespeare 109 00:07:58,876 --> 00:08:01,996 Speaker 1: in New York within blocks of each other. Okay, So 110 00:08:02,196 --> 00:08:04,956 Speaker 1: Forrest's fans buy up a block of seats at astor place, 111 00:08:05,196 --> 00:08:09,436 Speaker 1: and when McCready starts to perform, they interrupt him, throwing 112 00:08:09,556 --> 00:08:13,956 Speaker 1: vegetables and screaming. The violence starts to get out of hand, 113 00:08:14,196 --> 00:08:17,916 Speaker 1: and patrons run out of the theater. Outside they bang 114 00:08:17,916 --> 00:08:21,316 Speaker 1: into more a Forest's crew who've marched up from downtown. 115 00:08:21,756 --> 00:08:25,636 Speaker 1: They're throwing rocks that they've grabbed from a quarry nearby 116 00:08:25,996 --> 00:08:31,196 Speaker 1: windows shatter. The chaos escalates. Ten thousand people are jammed 117 00:08:31,196 --> 00:08:35,556 Speaker 1: into this one tight section of Lower Manhattan. The situation 118 00:08:35,596 --> 00:08:39,916 Speaker 1: gets so volatile that National Guard troops pour onto the scene. 119 00:08:39,956 --> 00:08:43,236 Speaker 1: They fire warning shots, but they don't help, so they 120 00:08:43,276 --> 00:08:55,836 Speaker 1: open fire on the Crown. People fall, There's blood the 121 00:08:55,836 --> 00:09:00,916 Speaker 1: times over. Dozens of people are injured and twenty two 122 00:09:01,516 --> 00:09:04,876 Speaker 1: are dead in the streets. It's the worst riot in 123 00:09:04,916 --> 00:09:09,316 Speaker 1: the young country's history, and its centers on whether or 124 00:09:09,396 --> 00:09:18,756 Speaker 1: not Shakespeare is American. M It's an amazing story, isn't it. 125 00:09:18,756 --> 00:09:21,036 Speaker 1: It's wild and it's crazy to me that, even though 126 00:09:21,076 --> 00:09:23,996 Speaker 1: it was a total cataclysm one hundred and seventy five 127 00:09:24,076 --> 00:09:29,036 Speaker 1: years ago, the Aster Place riots kind of forgotten today. Yeah, 128 00:09:29,356 --> 00:09:31,996 Speaker 1: the interview clips that open this episode or proof of that, 129 00:09:32,476 --> 00:09:35,916 Speaker 1: we recorded them on Aster Place. And if I'm not mistaken, 130 00:09:35,956 --> 00:09:38,476 Speaker 1: the only living legacy of the riot is the New 131 00:09:38,556 --> 00:09:40,956 Speaker 1: York City's mayor at the time ordered the police department 132 00:09:40,996 --> 00:09:44,796 Speaker 1: to permanently arm itself as a cautionary measure. The force 133 00:09:44,916 --> 00:09:47,236 Speaker 1: that patrols the streets of the Big Apple today can 134 00:09:47,276 --> 00:09:51,956 Speaker 1: trace its considerable firepower directly to a dispute over Macbeth 135 00:09:52,436 --> 00:09:57,676 Speaker 1: that is absolutely true. But Edwin Forrest's legacy lives on, 136 00:09:57,756 --> 00:10:00,116 Speaker 1: and that is what I want to explore in this 137 00:10:00,156 --> 00:10:05,236 Speaker 1: episode of Where There's a Will. Every actor who speaks 138 00:10:05,236 --> 00:10:07,876 Speaker 1: Iambic pentameter on the stage of The Old Globe or 139 00:10:07,996 --> 00:10:11,196 Speaker 1: any other Shakespeare's age in this country is a direct 140 00:10:11,356 --> 00:10:15,756 Speaker 1: descendant of Forest and m As you know, for actors 141 00:10:15,756 --> 00:10:20,996 Speaker 1: in Shakespeare, being American is a thing. Just like Forrest 142 00:10:21,156 --> 00:10:23,676 Speaker 1: was told by the establishment that no matter what he did, 143 00:10:23,916 --> 00:10:28,476 Speaker 1: McCready would always be better at Shakespeare because he was English. 144 00:10:28,876 --> 00:10:32,556 Speaker 1: So his descendants in our era hear the same thing. 145 00:10:33,196 --> 00:10:35,516 Speaker 1: When I started my career in Shakespeare thirty years ago, 146 00:10:35,556 --> 00:10:39,876 Speaker 1: i heard it American Shakespeare was less than Shakespeare was English. 147 00:10:40,036 --> 00:10:43,596 Speaker 1: His stories are English, his references are London and Warwickshire. 148 00:10:43,796 --> 00:10:47,156 Speaker 1: The English just do him better. Oh totally. I mean 149 00:10:47,276 --> 00:10:50,956 Speaker 1: I had Shakespeare teachers who spoke in a British accent 150 00:10:50,996 --> 00:10:54,516 Speaker 1: even though they're from America. I mean I had actors 151 00:10:54,556 --> 00:10:57,196 Speaker 1: show up on first days of rehearsal doing sort of 152 00:10:57,276 --> 00:11:01,996 Speaker 1: elevated British accents. I'm fascinated by how these old prejudices 153 00:11:02,116 --> 00:11:05,836 Speaker 1: continue to resonate through our theater, in our acting culture. 154 00:11:06,236 --> 00:11:10,396 Speaker 1: Even in our thinking about Shakespeare Old Globe. The theater 155 00:11:10,516 --> 00:11:13,996 Speaker 1: I run has a professional actor training conservatory, and its 156 00:11:14,036 --> 00:11:18,316 Speaker 1: mission is to nurture the Edwin forests of tomorrow. I 157 00:11:18,356 --> 00:11:20,996 Speaker 1: had a conversation with the director of our program and 158 00:11:21,156 --> 00:11:24,196 Speaker 1: with one of his wonderful students about how they connect 159 00:11:24,236 --> 00:11:28,556 Speaker 1: their americanness to Shakespeare. We'll get to their stories after 160 00:11:28,596 --> 00:11:29,276 Speaker 1: a quick break