1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable but true story 20 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: of George Remus. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer 21 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: who figured out how to game the system during Prohibition. 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: Remus is the biggest man in the business, but George 23 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: Remus's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading 24 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: to betrayal, revenge, and one of the most sensational murder 25 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: trials in American history. Listen to Remus the Mad Bootleg 26 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 27 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Listen up, California. Have you 28 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: noticed everything going on with auto insurance recently? It's total chaos? 29 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: Have companies or brokers denied you insurance? Don't you want 30 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: to insure your vehicles with full coverage? Or do they 31 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: tell you that you must wait up to thirty days 32 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: to buy your policy? My friends, you need to call 33 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: Fred Lawyer Insurance at Fred Lawyer, we will insure are 34 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: you today Colin get insured today one eight hundred four 35 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: four four forty forty. That's one eight hundred four to 36 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: four four forty forty or visit us at fred Laya 37 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: dot com. How full you like? St zero six thirty 38 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: four eight six. His mother saying that George said I'll 39 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: take the fall forward, which he says he never said 40 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: his account of his relationship with Hanname Rodin, and according 41 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,959 Speaker 1: to George, they were very close and they were dear friends. Again, 42 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: is this just an attempt to show him as a 43 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: vulnerable human being? Or is this just a show? I 44 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: don't see how they could ever believe something like that, 45 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: because Hannah, I'm Frankie and Christina and their family would 46 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: never do anything to a child. It now becomes a 47 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: case of who do you believe Angela and Jake and 48 00:02:52,880 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: all of the circumstantial evidence or George. Welcome to the 49 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: Peckton Massacre Season four, Episode twenty two, George Wagner takes 50 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: the stand Part two. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer 51 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shame. It's 52 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: important to note that George Wagner has pleaded not guilty 53 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: and has maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, 54 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not 55 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: guilty to all charges. Last week, we left off with 56 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: George Wagner testifying about a physical altercation he had with 57 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: his father Billy. We pick up with a continuation of 58 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: George's testimony about the aftermath of the confrontation, as the 59 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: toxic environment at the Wagner home grew, George that his father, 60 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner, moved out. He stayed with my grandparents. Yeah, 61 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: multiple reasons. One he couldn't stand being around my mother anymore, 62 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: and to my grandfather was bed ridden Kent Gallabad. So 63 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: I understand you correctly. Your father was spending a lot 64 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: of time at the Flying w helping with his father's care. Yes, 65 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: and kind of also at the same time, what was 66 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: the relationship between him and it basically went to they 67 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: might as well just called it friends after a divorce, 68 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: even though they weren't divorced. As his parents' marriage was 69 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: falling apart, George began to date Tabitha Claer. When their 70 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: relationship ended, George said his brother Jake's girlfriend, Hannah may 71 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: Rodin played matchmaker. She was the one who got Tabitha 72 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: and George back together. Now we've heard a lot about 73 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: Jake and Hannah's relationship. Describe your relationship. I looked Hannah 74 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: as a baby sister. What do you mean by that? 75 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: My brother might be biologically my brother, but we never 76 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: acted like brothers. Hannah acted like a baby sister to me, 77 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: and my uncle Chris acted like a brother to me. 78 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,559 Speaker 1: Do things with him. We go fishing together, four wheel 79 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: and six buckeyes during the holidays, tell dirty jokes back 80 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: and forth, talk to each other about what would bothering 81 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: each other? How else would you describe your relationship. We 82 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,359 Speaker 1: sit around and tell dirty jokes and stuff, and I 83 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: put beer and stuff and different containers. So Jake, what 84 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: knows she was drinking? Okay? And what did Jake think 85 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: of your relationship? He I don't think he really liked it. 86 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: He always so that was too close to her. And 87 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: were you anything ever more than good brother, little sister? 88 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: There's quite an age differences, thinking five and a half years, 89 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: maybe six? And would you do other activities? We sit 90 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: around and tell dirty jokes with each other. And if 91 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: Hannah was having an emotional day, she talked to me 92 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: about it. Or if I was having an emotional day, 93 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: I talked to her about it. And at this time, 94 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,239 Speaker 1: you're kind of a big fellow, right, Yes, that's something 95 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: you would ever talk to him? That's kind of like 96 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: a two way street with us. She worried about her weight. 97 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: I'm worried about mine, And so what would you do? 98 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: Sit there and talk to each other about what possible 99 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: bill I need at least weight. After being reunited by 100 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: Hanname Rodin, George Wagner and Tabitha were married in twenty twelve. 101 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: George described a difficult marriage and did Tabby amby medical 102 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: brother issue? She had really bad fits? What do you mean? 103 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: She would freak out and yell and scream and she 104 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: would just rock back and forth and cry on average 105 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: two or three times a week. And so what would 106 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: you do at that point in time? Yeah, just try 107 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: and calm her down. Usually usually if I'd just give 108 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: her a hug, she calmed down. But do you know 109 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: if she was ever on any medy case she's supposed 110 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: to be did? How did that affect her? We had 111 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: a lot of really good days until she had her face. 112 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: So you continued on with your relationship. Yeah, And so 113 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: you decided to have a family, is it right? Yes? 114 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: We tried for over a year and have our son, 115 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: and finally she got pregnant with him. How did that 116 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: make you the best moment of my life? But that 117 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: happiness was short lived. She ended up telling me she 118 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: was grewing her best friend's then, So what was your 119 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: your reaction? I mean, it's kind of heartbreaking in a way, 120 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: but she swore that the baby was mine and we 121 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,239 Speaker 1: went on with it. A DNA test proved the child 122 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: was George's, but the damage to the relationship was significant. 123 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: When he was born, I ended up getting a DNA 124 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: test to make sure he was mine. But while we 125 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: were in the hospital was driving me nuts with everything 126 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: that she had done, and I tried to leave her. 127 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: At that point, she begged and cried and pleaded for 128 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: me not to leave her, saying she couldn't raise a 129 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: kid on her own. So what did I ended up 130 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: caving and stayed with her. George Wagner said between his 131 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: own families intense fighting and Tabitha's fits that he often 132 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: wanted to run away, but because he relied on his 133 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: mother and not Tabitha to take care of his son, 134 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: George didn't. And who responsible who took care of him 135 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: the most? Me and my mother? What about Tech when 136 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: she was around somebody else, She had a habit of 137 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 1: always getting hurt when he was around her. She'd bring 138 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: him out of the bathrooms and give him bath. You 139 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: have a new knot on his head, or she shoved 140 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: his hand in some hot vegetables once and another time 141 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: she might have tried to catch him, but I think 142 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: she pushed him off the picnic tables. What looked like 143 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: to me think she was amusing to find that. Well, 144 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: do you think she was purposely harming him? I can't 145 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: say on any of them, other than the vegetables, and 146 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: she did that on purpose? What happened? He kept trying 147 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,599 Speaker 1: to reach for him, and she shoved his hand to 148 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: them when they were too hot and held it there 149 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: until it burned him. Are you there now? That's just 150 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: what she said she did, So what was your reaction. 151 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: I didn't trust her to make sure he didn't get hurt. 152 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: Even her own mother said she couldn't handle raising the child. 153 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: The situation at home with Tabitha only continued to unravel. 154 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: I had come in from working and my kid was 155 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: sitting on the counter. He was a couple of months old, 156 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: maybe before the house right after the house part, and 157 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: I couldn't find Tabby anywhere, and she was locked in 158 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: the bathroom, okay whatever. After I got the door open, 159 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: she was sitting in the bathroom and a pull of 160 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: her own blood, she was trying to kill herself. She 161 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: had a pair of scissors hacking away at herself. What 162 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: did you do? I took the scissors from her and 163 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 1: bandaged her wrist up and tried to get her go 164 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: to the hospital, and she refused, saying they put her 165 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: on a sideboard, and I tried to get her to 166 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: just let me and her move to Alaska at that point, 167 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: So would you actually do I put her in the 168 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: truck and was going out the driveway try and get 169 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: her to go to the hospital. Did you have any 170 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: intentions of moving at that Yes, I was going to 171 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: move her to Alaska because she said she couldn't deal 172 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: with my mother anymore. Why didn't you go? She said 173 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,599 Speaker 1: we had no money and didn't have no way to 174 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: get there, and it we'd be better off to stay 175 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: there where we had a roof over our head. Yes, 176 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: I didn't try to do I didn't want to take 177 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: the chance of being broke with no roof over from 178 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: my head, and I didn't never have the financials back 179 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: in to do what I wanted to do. I have 180 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: any regrets over that, Yes, I do. During one of 181 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 1: Tabitha's quote fits, George Wagner testified that she heard their 182 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: son while changing his diaper. It's important to note that 183 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: Tabitha Clayter denies any abuse towards her son. Tabby was 184 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: in my room changing in his diaper and he was 185 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: wailing for some reason. She can't change the diapers alian wailing, 186 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: and I went to find out what was wrong with him. 187 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: So she was kind of like holding him down, telling 188 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: him to quit kicking stuff, and being I think overly 189 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: pushy with him. So I told her calmed down, quit yelling, 190 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: and even I'll do it, and she got mad and 191 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: tried to swing around and bumped his head off the wall. 192 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: So I took Tabby and gave him to hand them. 193 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: After that, Tabby got mad and stormed out of the 194 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: house and went out on patio. I went out try 195 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: and calm her down, and she was doing her normal fits, 196 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: yelling and screaming and hollering. And about that time my 197 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: mother came home. Because your mother wasn't there in the 198 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: sh no, so your mother came home. She tried to 199 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: put herself in the middle of our argument, and I 200 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: told her it wasn't her business, and she went in 201 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: mouse after I yelled out her A couple of times okay, 202 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: so whatever. After that, I tried calm and Tabby down. 203 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: Usually I can get her to calm down. Sometimes a 204 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: hubble work, but not generally. But I tried to hug 205 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: her and she bit me. And after she bit me, 206 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: she hit me with a board and took off out 207 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: through the driveway. So I said to hell with it 208 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: and went a mouse. After a few hours of looking, 209 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: George that he found Tabitha at a truck stop several 210 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: miles away. Their relationship continued to deteriorate and ended when 211 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: he found out Tabitha was still in her relationship with 212 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: her friend's father. After six weeks, I found out that 213 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: she wasn't trying to fix the things. She was still 214 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: screwing her best friend's dad, which was from the beginning 215 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: that I've talked about, and I went to her house 216 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night to tell her, Yuk, 217 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: I'm done with it. Really, what did you do? As 218 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: a result? After that, we got divorced. Here's Jeff and 219 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: Stephanie without physical evidence. This case is built on a 220 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: lot of emotion, and so I think what George Wagner 221 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: and his attorneys are trying to do is paint a 222 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: human picture of George Wagner. You know they've seen the 223 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: jury has heard a lot of horrible things about George 224 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 1: and his family, and so to hear something a little 225 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: more vulnerable and makes them sound more sensitive. I think 226 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: they're thinking, can't hurt. The one detail that I heard 227 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: was his account of his relationship with Hanname Rodin. And 228 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: according to George, they were very close and they were 229 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: dear friends, and that they both were very self conscious 230 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: about their weight and they would talk about that and 231 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: discuss that. Again, is this just an attempt to show 232 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: him as a vulnerable human being or is this just 233 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: a show. We're going to take a break. We'll be 234 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,719 Speaker 1: back in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm 235 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: hosting a podcast called The Girl Friends. Back in the 236 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated 237 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages, 238 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He 239 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't. 240 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: He shouted into the point she went unconscious. Bob could 241 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: lie about anything, but only takes the one time when 242 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for bob Us girlfriends know 243 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: how to fight back. I wanted him to pay for 244 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll 245 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 246 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 247 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 248 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 249 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 250 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. They say history is written by 251 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: the victors, but you know what they've left out A 252 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: hell of a lot of juicy stuff. Take Abe Lincoln's assassination. 253 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: Did you know a young couple was sitting right next 254 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: to him when he was shot? It haunted the husband 255 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: so much he later murdered his wife. Ah, we all 256 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: know who invented that, right, and we'll think again. Truth 257 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: is Alexander Graham Bell stole the idea for the telephone 258 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: and then claimed it as his own. For every pivotal 259 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: moment in history, there's always a backstory, and it's usually 260 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: way more interesting than the big story. From mysterious murders 261 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: to the baffling sleep schedules of yesteryear to the fascinating 262 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: lives of those just outside the limelight where going to 263 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: uncover the forgotten pieces of history you didn't know you 264 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: need it to know. Listen to the Backstory with me 265 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: Patty Steele, twice a week on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 266 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I hope nobody thinks 267 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: I got this story because I slept with the guy. 268 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: So how does the half American, half Nicaraguan party girl 269 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: from New Orleans with absolutely no journalism experience break the 270 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: biggest story of the eighties. That's what journalista is all about. 271 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: I'm a woman not wearing a braw curses like a sailor. 272 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: I got balls bigger than any man, and rather used 273 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: to call me his secret weapon. Pablo gave me half 274 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: a pound of cocaine with a wedding. We work hard, 275 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: but we party even harder because you never knew it. 276 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: The next day's battle was going to be the one 277 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: that killed. We were up in the air. I heard 278 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: three somethings. I looked at one soldier and I said, 279 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: that's not a good sound. Is no, We're going down? 280 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: And I said, what do you mean? We're going down? 281 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,479 Speaker 1: And then we started to go down. Listen to Journalista 282 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever 283 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: you get yours. Hello, Hello, Malcolm Glaubell here, host of 284 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: Revisionist History, a show about the overlooked and the misunderstood 285 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: stories you won't hear anywhere else, like our ongoing obsessive 286 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: campaign to blow up the world's most focus college ranking system. 287 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: Why not just throw in a few extra zeros or 288 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: witness me after years of fancy public speaking, learning that 289 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: I kind of have to start over. The tone that 290 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: you had throughout the debate was very similar to some 291 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: of the students that I do work with, and that's 292 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: what I teach them not to do. We're making more 293 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: revisionous history for you this year than ever from places 294 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: all across this great country, emergency rooms, huge theaters, small 295 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: towns and shooting righteous And you want to put your 296 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 1: thumb up like the US. Are you gonna pull the 297 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: trigger with this finger? Here? Okay? Listen to Revisionist History 298 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get 299 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: your podcasts. After a brief lunch break, George Wagener returned 300 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 1: to the stand and calmly continued to distance himself from 301 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: his own family. After making new hunting friends. George said 302 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: he made up his mind to leave his family's criminal life. 303 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: James became a really close friend of mine. I kind 304 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: of looked at Rick as a second father. Why do 305 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: you say Rick was a second He always gave me 306 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: a lot of advice growing up. Was that advice different 307 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: than what you had received her? Yes? Explain it. He 308 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: basically told me not to continue down the road I 309 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: was going doing the stuff that my father did. And 310 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: did you take that advice to heart? It took a 311 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 1: long time to get it completely out of my system. 312 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: But yes, when did you start taking his advice to her? 313 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: Around the time that me and Tabby got married? And 314 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: you talked earlier about when you and Tabby got married 315 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: and you like to drink and have a good time 316 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: down a big bar. Yes, once your son was born, 317 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: did that change? I gave all my party and days 318 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: up increasingly. George said he spent time with Rick and 319 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: James hunting a lot. This also angered his mother Angela. 320 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: And how did that affect your life? It was always 321 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: a fighting argument about about me spending time with them 322 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: and her want me to stay and do everything she 323 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: wanted on the farm. So you talked to earlier about 324 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: how mister Rogu was giving you advice? Yes, And did 325 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: dad ever did his advice ever sinking? And one point 326 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: in time, yes, he basically tried to steer me away 327 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: from where my father was leading me. Explain what you mean? 328 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: It was going to end up badly one day with 329 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 1: the theft and the fuel and the loads, and I'd 330 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: always have to look over my shoulder and all right, 331 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: So what did you do? Eventually? I quit? Quit? What 332 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: everything my dad taught me about? How old were you 333 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: on data? Late twenty fourteen? Late George said, as he 334 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: looked to change his own life around, Hannah Rodin became 335 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: more of a present to him, and that he considered 336 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: her a close family member. Did you like having Hannah round? Yes? 337 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: Why is it she was like a baby sister. What 338 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: was her relationship with your five? Her and dad was 339 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: all your goofing off with each other? How about Hannah 340 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: and your mother? My mother and Hannah used to do 341 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff together. They bake all the time, 342 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 1: cook all the time. She followed her around like a 343 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 1: lovesick puppy dog. Basically, he thought they had a good relationship. Yes, 344 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: did you ever know all the time when the relationship 345 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: soured in anyway between my mom and Hannah, Yes, not really. 346 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: What about between her and Jake got to where they 347 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: bought and argued a lot? Did there a come a 348 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: time when they separate? Yes, my brother and Hanna are 349 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: daylight and darked each other. I didn't think she'd ever 350 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: leave him, But they also didn't get along because Hannah 351 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: wanted to do her things and Jake didn't want her 352 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: to all kind of things that Anna want to hang 353 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: out with her friends do normal teenage stuff. She kind 354 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: of missed out and being a teenager when she got 355 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: with Jake. Major developments today in Pike County, George Wagner 356 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: the fourth took to the stand in his own murder trial. 357 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: Wagner the Fourth is claiming he never took part in 358 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: or had any knowledge of the killings of the Rodent family. 359 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: After hours of testimony detailing the toxic Wagner family dynamics 360 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 1: and his own frustrations with his family, defense attorney John 361 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: Parker turned to the April twenty and sixteen murders. When 362 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: asked by his lawyer if he knew where his family 363 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: quote stashed the murder weapons, George pleaded ignorance. Now you 364 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: heard the testimony and saw the exhibits of the cree 365 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: buckets that were taken off that house bar. Yes, had 366 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 1: you ever seen those before? No? Did you know they 367 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: were on a goosebar? No? Did you know anything about 368 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: the contents? No. George Wagner testified that he knew all 369 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: of the Rodents well and liked them. He then went 370 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: on to explain some of the connections between the two families. 371 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: What was the relationship between Chris Senior and how would 372 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: you describe their relationship? Like, right before the uners really 373 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 1: close friends? What do you mean by really close close friends? 374 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: Business partners? Business partners? And oh really, I would say 375 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: more like I really wouldn't call it exact business partners. 376 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: I would say, why my dad was a tag along? Okay, 377 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: what kind of business were you? From my understanding of it, Yes, 378 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: my dad was trying to help Chris with their growing 379 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: of the marijuana. While George knew all of the Rodents, 380 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: Frankie was the one he was closest with. Did you 381 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: still consider him a friend? I still considering one of 382 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: my best friends. Yes. Then George responded to the many 383 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: witnesses that implicated him in the two thousand and sixteen murders. 384 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: He denied taking part in or having knowledge of the murders, 385 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 1: as his mother and brother had claimed. For testimony from Jake, correct, yes, 386 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: murder your mom testified? Right? Yes? Was in April twenty sixteen? 387 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: All right? Or March of twenty sixteen or going all 388 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 1: the way back to January? Were you aware at any 389 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: time that Jake and your dad and your mom were 390 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: planning to kill the road? Was that ever discussed with you? No? 391 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: Did you have any idea that was going to happen? No? 392 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: Did you know of any reason that your family wanted 393 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: to kill the roads? Did Jake ever come to you 394 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: and explain what was going to happen? No? Did Jake 395 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: ever ask you to help in any way? What about 396 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: your mother? Now? What about your father? No? If one 397 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 1: of them had come to you and ask you to 398 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: be involved in something like this, what do you think 399 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: you would have done? At first? I don't think I 400 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: would have believed it. Why is that? I just don't 401 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 1: I never would have believed my family would be capable 402 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: of doing something about Magnitude. Well, you've described in some 403 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: detail thefts the artisans that your family participated in yes, 404 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: other illegal activities, including yourself. So why didn't you think 405 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 1: they could do something like this? Theft is one thing, 406 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: murder is an entirely different thing. So if you had 407 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: done they were planning, we're talking about or even discussing it, 408 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: what would have been what would have been your reaction 409 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: or what would you have done? I don't know exactly how. 410 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: I wouldn't never let it happen. What would you have 411 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: done to I can't honestly say that one way or another, 412 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 1: I would have never let it happen. Here's James Pilcher, 413 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati, now with Local twelve. I 414 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: personally was surprised at the defense, specifically said, were you there, 415 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: did you do anything? Did you know about it at 416 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: a time? When did you find out that they were 417 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: guilty or that they had actually participated? His answer was 418 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: not until my brother pleaded guilty and I read his 419 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: proper and even then he didn't believe it. That he 420 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: says he didn't believe it, So, yeah, I mean it 421 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: was it was stunning to hear that after everything we've 422 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: heard about him wanting to kill Ryan Scheider and the 423 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 1: BCI agent and him on the tapes saying, Oh, we 424 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: got to get a lawyer. We get it the best lawyer, 425 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: his mother saying I'll take the fall for it. His 426 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: mother saying that George said I'll take the fall for it, 427 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: which he says he never said. So, yeah, I mean it. 428 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: Now becomes a case of who do you believe, George, 429 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: Angela and Jake and all of the circumstantial evidence or George. 430 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: On the night of the murders, George Wagner claimed he 431 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: was with his son and father, Billy, before heading to bed. Well, 432 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: what did you do the day before? The night before 433 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: the normal things? Went up on the hill, took care 434 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: of the animals. Then my dad came down, brought my 435 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: kid donuts again, which he never would stopped doing. And 436 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: then my kid didn't my belief, so he stayed with 437 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: my kid. And did you ever leave to go up 438 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: and commit these murders? No? Did you know that Jake 439 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: and your dad had left? No? How do you explain it? 440 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: I just didn't know they left. Did you go to 441 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: bed day now? Did you go to sleep that night? Yes? 442 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 1: George says he woke up the next morning, made coffee 443 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: and went with Jake to tear down a structure on 444 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: his grandfather's property. When I got back to the house 445 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 1: and the news was saying that there have been people 446 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: killed on Union Hill, and my dad was freaking out, 447 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: saying he couldn't get ahold of Christina. Where was Jake? 448 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: Jake was outside on the phone, where was your mother? 449 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: The muther of my belief right? So what was your reaction? 450 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: I was trying to ask my dad what was really 451 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: on the news and what was going on, and he 452 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: was still freaking out, saying, Chris wodn't answered the phone. 453 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: And then Jake come in and said that Andrew Carson 454 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: had told him vat Hannah and Frankie and everybody had 455 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: been killed. What was your reaction? I really don't know 456 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: how those put it into words. Think of that. It 457 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: was more heartbreaking and more of a trauma than I've 458 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: ever been through in my life. So what did you do? 459 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: I ended up getting on my foreworler and going up 460 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: the hill, up the hill behind your farm. Yes, why 461 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: did you do that? I always go out in the woods, 462 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: So why I need to calm down or need a 463 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: little bit of therapy? And how long did you say? There? 464 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: A couple of hours? Maybe when I come back down, Samantha. 465 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: Friends had called me after her and my ex wife's 466 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: haby called me. What was Jake do? He was sitting 467 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: in the living room and kind of like a days 468 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: What was your dad? He was still in the living 469 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: room and just kind of sitting there talking to Jake, 470 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: and Jake really wasn't responding. What was your mother? Do? 471 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 1: I remember correctly? She was in the kitchens the kids, 472 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: George said, despite what others had testified, he never discussed 473 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: the murderers with his family afterwards. Did your dad ever 474 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: talk to you in those following days about the room? No? 475 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: Did your brother Jake ever talk to you at anytime 476 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: about the murdering? No? Did your mother ever talk to 477 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: you at any time about the murderer? No? Did you 478 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: ever overhear them talking amongst themselves? No? Did you have 479 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: any clue your family was involved in this? No? George 480 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: said he and his family attended the road in funerals, 481 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: and his parents and Jake acted quote normal. Did you 482 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: ever talk about the murders on the way No? About 483 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: on the way home? No? What was what was your 484 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: dad's demeanor? Acted like my dad? What about Jake? Jake 485 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: just acted like Jake? He doesn't hardly ever show emotion. Well, 486 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: you saw him testify her, right, Yeah? Did you see 487 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: him laugh and smiles smirk? Yes? Had you ever seen 488 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: him act like that? No? Never, never in my life. 489 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: You said he doesn't show emotion. No, what do you 490 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: mean by that? He won't even let you give him 491 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: a hug. George said later that his family went on 492 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: a trip to Alaska in May of twenty seventeen, and 493 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: on the way home were stopped and interrogated. Did you 494 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: at this point in time no, if your family had 495 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: any involvement in these words? No, Were you upset that 496 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: BCI was still looking at your family a time? Yes? 497 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: I was very upset because I was under the assumption 498 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: that they were just trying to point the finger at 499 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: anybody they could so they wouldn't continue to be like 500 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: Facebook topics was saying. If they didn't know that what 501 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: they were doing for their job, I thought they were 502 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: just trying to frame my mom and brother. George said 503 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: his interrogation by BCI agents at the border started friendly enough, 504 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: but then they began accusing him and his family of 505 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: killing the Rodents. If I remember correctly, They started off 506 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: talking about hunting and fishing, okay, And then then they 507 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: started asking questions about receipts and shell casings and shoes 508 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: and did they show you any photographs or any documents? 509 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: Did they showed you? Yes, they showed me pictures of shellcasing, 510 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: a picture, I believe, a picture of Walmart receipt, a 511 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: pair of shoes, and what were what kind of questions 512 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: were they asking. They were saying that my mom bought 513 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: the pair of shoes, and the receipt showed sheep all 514 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: them and that those were those shoes that was used. 515 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: And then they said that they found a showcasing of 516 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: the crime scene that matched my father's gun. And what 517 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: was your reaction to I didn't believe what they were saying. 518 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: Were you told that your family was involved they accused 519 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: my brother and my mother of it. Yes, what was 520 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: your reaction? I was just upset about it. I was 521 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: emostly distraught that they would accuse my family. So you're 522 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: in this interview or a carrigation in Montana. What was 523 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: your understanding at the end of the interview. At the 524 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: end of it, yeah, my understanding of it was that 525 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: they were either going to call me a suspect or 526 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: a witness. Whichever they decided, and that they wanted me 527 00:31:55,560 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: to basically spy on my brother. Did you breed to 528 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: do yes? Did you ever have a conversation with your 529 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: brother after this month Tana interrogation? Yes, explain it. I 530 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: asked my brother if he had had anything to do 531 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: with it, or if he knew who did When? Did 532 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: you have that conversation? When we got back from Montana? 533 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: I was on the farm reloading everything. Is anybody else around? No? 534 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: It was just me and him. What was his response? 535 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: He swore up and down he didn't know who did 536 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: it and they didn't have nothing to do with it. 537 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: Did you accept that? I had no reason not to 538 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: believe him. Let's stop here for another break. Despite Jake 539 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: and his parents denials, George said, the rumors of their 540 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: involvement in the murders followed them to Alaska. All right, well, 541 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: let's talk about that for a second. You're up in Alaska, right? Yes? 542 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: Did these crimes where they publicized in Alaska? Yes? How's 543 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: that it ended up being broadcast on the local news 544 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: channels up there was broadcast that my family were subjects 545 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,719 Speaker 1: of interest and anybody had information about it should call 546 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: this number. How did that make not happy about it. 547 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: When I first got to a last guy, I went 548 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: to Sportsman's warehouse to buy me a new glock where 549 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: I sold mine before I left, and they sold it 550 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: to it no problems. Then when I went back after that, 551 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: they refused to sell me anything. Even now, George says 552 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: he can't believe his brother and mother admitted to the killings. 553 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: What did you think? I really didn't know how to 554 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: take it, what to think? I first thought my brother 555 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: had just gone crazy sitting in jail. Why did you 556 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: think that my brother's not a social person and doesn't 557 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: get along well with people. I couldn't understand how my 558 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: brother would be capable of doing something like this, especially 559 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: after he's ward. Maybe he had nothing to do with it. 560 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: Did that make you feel heartbroken? Betrayed? The fact that 561 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 1: what he did to hand him Frankie and her family, 562 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: and for the fact that I believed him and I 563 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: took up for him. And George says he had a 564 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: similar reaction when his mother pled guilty. I was heartbroken 565 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: over it, in bet felt betrayed, and I just couldn't 566 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: believe that they were capable of it. You still have 567 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: a hard time comfort I have a hard time dealing 568 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: with it. Yes, you heard your brother come in here 569 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: and testify that you were part of the place. Yes, 570 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: I heard that, Is that true? No? Did you help 571 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: him in any way before the word? No? Did you 572 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: help him in any way after? No? Did you help 573 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: him build that false bed on the truck? No? Did 574 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: you crawl in that true? No? Were you up on 575 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: Union Hill brother that night? Did you help him get 576 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: rid of the clothing afterwards? Did you help him dig 577 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: that hole? Now? Did you help him get rid of 578 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: the guns and other things that were found on the 579 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: concrete buckets? Now? You heard your mother testify too? Yes? 580 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: How did it make you feel to have your mother 581 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: testify against you? It was emotionally hard, considering she wouldn't 582 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: even look at me. After George's denials, he said he 583 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: didn't believe what Jake and his mother, Angela's rationale was 584 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: for the murders. You heard your brother testify about He 585 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: thought it was being sexually amused. Yes, same thing for 586 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: your mother. Yes, did you at any time ever suspect 587 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: it was being sexually amused? No? What was your reaction 588 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: when you heard your brother and your mother testify? I 589 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: don't see how they could ever believe something like that. 590 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: Why is that? Because Hanna, I'm Frankie and Christinia and 591 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: their family would never do anything to a child. Do 592 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: you know why your family can't even begin to imagine 593 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: why I've tried for the past year and a half 594 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: to figure it out. Now that you know Jake has 595 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:28,919 Speaker 1: pled guilty. What do you think of I really don't 596 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: even like call any of my brother anymore. What is that? 597 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: I just I'm ashamed to know that my family would 598 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: do something like this. What about your mother? I have 599 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: the same feeling towards her? Here again. Investigative journalist James Pilcher. 600 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: He owns up to everything short of being part of 601 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: the merger. He owned up to all the criminal activity, 602 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,879 Speaker 1: even on his own outside of his family. He owned 603 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,240 Speaker 1: up to everything. But he said, I would never kill anybody. 604 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: I would never kill any buddy for his niece. He 605 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,439 Speaker 1: would never kill anybody for his own son. He would 606 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: never even think about it. And he said, if I 607 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: had known about it, I would have tried to have 608 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:10,760 Speaker 1: so Now if I'm a juror, my head is swimming. 609 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: More on that next time. For more information on the 610 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie 611 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 1: Underscore Studios. The Piked and Masaker is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, 612 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me 613 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ta Music 614 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: by Jared Aston. The Piked and Masker is a production 615 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from my 616 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 617 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,280 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.