1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: A cloth as a gag, her eyes sealed shut with 2 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 1: band aids, zip ties around her legs. Twenty one year 3 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: old Julia Woodward found in a shallow grave and Hungry 4 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: Valley about fifteen miles from Reno. What happened to Julia Woodward? 5 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace investing ears with the Washoe 6 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: County Sheriff's Office in Reno found a body in a 7 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: shallow grave. It was twenty year old Julia Woodward. Her 8 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: body found in Hungry Valley, about fifteen miles north of Reno. 9 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: Investigators say her eyes were sealed shut with band aids. 10 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: They found zip ties on her legs, a cloth used 11 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: as a gag, and rocks covered in hair and blood. 12 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: She was only wearing one shoot. What happened to Julia Woodward? 13 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This as Crime Stories. Thank you for 14 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: being with us, with me an all star panel to 15 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: make sense of it all. Ashley Wilcot judge, trial lawyer, 16 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: anchor Chord TV. You can find her Ashley Wilcot dot com. 17 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: James shell Nutt twenty seven years Atlanta Metro major case 18 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: swat officer, now a lawyer, renowned psycho analysts joining us 19 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: from LA doctor Bethany Marshall at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. 20 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: The medical examiner for the entire state of Florida, doctor 21 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher, and he's joining me right now straight out 22 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: to investigative reporter with heavy dot com, Jennifer at Sikowski. Jennifer, 23 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: please describe for me again the way that this girl's 24 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: body was found. Twenty one year old Julia Woodward. If 25 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: you could see her, she's just loose, scrubbed in sunshine. 26 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: You can tell our parents spent a lot of money 27 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: on braces for her, wearing her hair in the style 28 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: of the day, kind of like fear of fawcet. Beautiful smile, 29 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: perfect nose, beautiful eyes. Who would kill this girl? Jennifer 30 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 1: Zigowski tell me about the discovery of her body. Oh? Yes, 31 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: Julia Woodward was absolutely gorgeous. She was also described as 32 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: being a very sweet girl who loved her family. She 33 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: held a promising future, and she had been living in 34 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: San Rafael, California with her mother and father. Julia's parents 35 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: told detectives at the time that she was traveling to 36 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: the Lake Tahoe at the Reno area and finding a 37 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: job on a friend roll her to the airport and 38 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: she was never seen again. Weeks later, her mom reported 39 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: her as a missing which she couldn't get in touch 40 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: with her and the last time mom fled. Just a moment, 41 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: Jennifer Zigawski, Jennifer, hold on, just a moment. You told 42 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: me she was traveling from A to B to get 43 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: a job, look for a job. She's twenty one years old, 44 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: just out of school, Jennifer. From where and to where 45 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 1: was she traveling? She was traveling from San Rafael, California, 46 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: her hometown, to Reno, Nevada. She was driven to the 47 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: San Francisco airport by a friend to catch her flight, 48 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: and that's when she was never seen again. Her mom 49 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: reported her as missing when she couldn't get in touch. 50 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: This girl, Julia Woodward, disappears almost immediately after we believe 51 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: touching down in Reno. She goes there, and not long 52 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: after her body found in a shallow grave in a 53 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: desert near Lemon Valley. To doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner 54 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: for the State of Florida, Loo, can you tell me 55 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: about her cause of death? I mean, this case goes 56 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: down decades ago. It's when she goes missing. This is 57 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: a forty years ago. How can you determine cod cause 58 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: of death forty years later? Or the cause of death 59 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: can be determined by the condition of the skeletal remains. 60 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: In most cases, if there are skull fractures that are 61 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: caused by a blunt blunt impact, or if there are 62 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds that go through the bones of these are 63 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: very well preserved pieces of evidence that can lead us 64 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: to a very accurate cause of death. Now, what we 65 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: believe right now is that this young girl's head had 66 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: been bashed in with a rock, her eyes sealed shut 67 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: with a band aids, her legs bound with zip ties, 68 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: her mouth gagged with a cloth, and we are learning 69 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: that from sources at k n xv TV. I want 70 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: to go to you, to doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. Doctor Bethany, 71 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: My big question is the scene Julie as a murder 72 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: was a brutal but what does it reveal about her killer? Well, 73 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 1: one of the things I wondered was were the band 74 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: aids put on her eyes before he accosted and assaulted 75 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: her or were they put on afterwards? Because that tells 76 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: us a lot. If they were placed on her eyes before, 77 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: it would mean that he didn't want to be seen, 78 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: so he would not want to be idd if they 79 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: were placed afterwards. It was an attempt to preserve the 80 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: corpse in some manner, prepare her for burial. Apparently there 81 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: was another crime where he was unsuccessful in assaulting and 82 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: murdering a young woman, but she instructed her to not 83 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: look at him, that if she looked at him, he 84 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: would bash her head with a rock, So apparently this 85 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: was already part of his mo You know, with serial killers, Nancy, 86 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: they have a particular style, a fetishized style of assaulting 87 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: and killing the victim, and it tends to be the 88 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: same every single time. So if I was interviewing this man, 89 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: I would want to know what's the significance of bashing 90 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: the person's heads of rock it? Is it just to 91 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 1: kill them? Or is there some statistic pleasure? Is there 92 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: some sexual pleasure and afflicting harm? What about the band aids? 93 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: Is do you want to assault her while she can't 94 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 1: look at you? You know? What about the zip ties? 95 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: Do you you don't want her to get away? Or 96 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: do you like the fact that someone's immobile? Why you're 97 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: sexually assault them? These would be very important questions. In 98 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: a forensic interview, What if anything, will potential DNA show 99 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 1: in the case. Authorities say DNA evidence found on Woodward's 100 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: clothing led to Sullivan, who was convicted of a two 101 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: thousand and seven attack of sexual nature in Nevada County. 102 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: It's a fine that Sheriff Balum attributes to newer DNA technology. 103 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: Six years ago we started our coldcase unit because we 104 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: know what technology and those advances that we've had, those 105 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: breakthroughs and these new developments give Julia's mother hope for 106 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: finding justice for her daughter, and has words of encouragement 107 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: for other parents seeking answer. It's possible, you know, with 108 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: the technology. They haven't know, and if they're frustrated, they 109 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: should write to you know, keep in touch with the 110 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: law enforcement and whatever county they're in. But no matter 111 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: what form of justice Julia's family may get from a 112 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: possible conviction, she says she'll never forget there's no closure. 113 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like I missed Julia every single day, 114 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: every hour or every day, you know, I think about 115 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: her all the time, all the forty years I've been 116 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: thinking about her, and I'm thinking about her still. Oh 117 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: the suffering this mother has gone through for forty years. 118 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: You're hearing Brian Hoffman from KATV in two news speaking 119 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: to Julia's mother, to doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for 120 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: the state of Florida. How after all these years can 121 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: you get DNA from a corpse. Well, that's a very 122 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: good question. There's a lot of places that the DNA 123 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: will degrade over time, but there are a few places 124 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: that wouldn't. For instance, if you look at the inside 125 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: portion of the tooth, the pulp of the tooth, the 126 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: soft tissue of that can be extracted for DNA and 127 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: it's very well preserved. Even some of the longer bones, 128 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: you know, the bone marrow itself, the DNA is still 129 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: preserved inside of that because it is protected from the 130 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: elements by and hardened calcified a shell around it. You know, 131 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: is this guy a serial killer? We don't know, But 132 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: take a listen to what we've learned from k n 133 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: x V ABC fifteen. Nicole Valdez. Prosecutors call her AE. 134 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: She may be one of the only women who escaped. 135 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: It was September of two thousand and seven. She was 136 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: in Utah hitchhiking to California, just like Julia Woodward. According 137 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: to investigators, she made it to Nevada County, about forty 138 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: five minutes from Reno, and hopped in with another man, 139 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: Charles Gary Sullivan. He pulled off into a remote area 140 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: in the Tahoe National Forest and, according to prosecutors, pulled 141 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: a gun on her and told her to lay on 142 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: her stomach. He used zip ties and handcuffs on her 143 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: wrists and ankles. Then the twenty five year old asked 144 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: what he had planned, and his response was the only 145 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: thing that's going to be involved is sex, and we're 146 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: just going to be out here for a few days 147 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: having some fun. She had a pocket knife, though, and 148 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: when he wasn't looking, cut off the zip ties and 149 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: ran crime stories with Nancy Grace. Prosecutors called her a 150 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: she may be one of the only women who escaped. 151 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: It was September of two thousand and seven. She was 152 00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: in Utah hitchhiking to California, just like Julia Woodward. According 153 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: to investigators, she made it to Nevada County, about forty 154 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: five minutes from Reno, and hopped in with another man, 155 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: Charles Gary Sullivan. He pulled off into a remote area 156 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: in the Tahoe National Forest, and, according to prosecutors pulled 157 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: a gun on her and told her to lay on 158 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: her stomach. He used zip ties and handcuffs on her 159 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: wrists and ankles. Then the twenty five year old asked 160 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: what he had planned, and his response was the only 161 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: thing that's going to be involved is sex, and we're 162 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: just going to be out here for a few days 163 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: having some fun. She had a pocket knife, though, and 164 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: when he wasn't looking, cut off the zip ties and 165 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: ran back to Jennifer Zikowski investigative reporter heavy dot com. 166 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: So that two thousand and seven victim, who we will 167 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: call A to protect her identity, managed to get away. 168 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: When the perp wasn't looking, she used a pocket knife 169 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: to cut the zip ties he had placed around her 170 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: ankles and wrists and make a run for it. She 171 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: managed to escape. She lived to the tail. Was he 172 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: convicted in the two thousand and seven case. He was, 173 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: And it's important to note too, when she did run, 174 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: she came across two men in ATVs who came to 175 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: her rescue. I think that's so important to the remote 176 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: area and thank god for those two men. So, according 177 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: to a two thousand and eight report by the sierraf 178 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: thoughts Sullivan was originally charged with kidnapping with a firearm, 179 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: kidnapping with the intent to commit rape with a firearms, 180 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: and criminal threats with a firearm. If he had been 181 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: convicted of those charges, he would have based life in prison. However, 182 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: he was instead convicted of lesser charges, including making criminal 183 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: threats in false imprisonment. The reason behind that it was 184 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: reported that jurors didn't see enough credible evidence for the 185 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: charges of Sullivan both having a gun and kidnapping. The 186 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: kidnapping part likely in my opinion, because the woman was hitchhiking. 187 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: He received three years and eight months for the crime, 188 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: which was the maximum sentence allotted. Hold on just a 189 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: moment to Astley Willcott, judge and trial lawyer, I guess 190 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 1: a jury didn't hear the judge read the charge of 191 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: the law to them, or the prosecutor didn't explain it 192 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: well enough, or maybe you know, they just are idiots, 193 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: because kidnapping doesn't require a long space as a long distance. 194 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: If I were to grab Jackie Howard at gunpoint he's 195 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: sitting right here with me in the studio and force 196 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: her into the next room three feet, that would be kidnapping. 197 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: The distance or the as it's called under the law, 198 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: asportation is irrelevant. Absolutely, it is irrelevant. So part of 199 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: the issue we run in with juries, You know, juries 200 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: are very sophisticated in my opinion. However, they can only 201 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: base their decisions based on what you just said, which 202 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: is how well is it explained by the prosecution, how 203 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: well is it reiterated, and the jury instructions that tell 204 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: them exactly what the law is. And frequently if those 205 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: jury instructions you know this, Nancy, if you do not 206 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: ensure that those jury instructions are right on and the 207 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: law is very clear and easy for them to understand, 208 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: and or if as a prosecutor you do not spoon 209 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: feed them to say this is all it has to be, 210 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: then they may not understand what you just said that 211 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: is kidnapping. There's no condition of this is how far 212 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: you have to take someone in order for it to 213 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 1: be a kidnapping. Well, to me, to doctor Bethany Marshall's 214 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: psychoanleist joining us out of la sounds to me that 215 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 1: they were holding a grudge against the female victim who 216 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: was hitchhiking there. From what Jennifer Zakowski from heavy dot 217 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,239 Speaker 1: Com is saying they seem to think because she was hitchhiking, 218 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: taking her and out in a desert and raping her, 219 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: that that wasn't a kidnapping. You think she wanted to 220 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: go out to the desert with this freak and nancy. Remember, 221 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: people who hitchhike often hitchhike because they have no money. 222 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: So maybe she wasn't dressed well in court, maybe she 223 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: didn't present well. You know, juries and judges both can 224 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 1: be what we call either offender identified or victim identified. 225 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: No matter what position and the law you're in, even 226 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: if you're just serving in a jury, you might have 227 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: an act to grind against as to grind against victims. 228 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: Perhaps you were a victim yourself, or you victimize somebody 229 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: else at some point in your life and you bring 230 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: various meanings to it, or you perpetrated against somebody like 231 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: I just said, and you can't forgive yourself for it, 232 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: so you're going to let this other perpetrator off the hook. 233 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: So I think juries really can be wild cards for 234 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: so many different reasons. Well, oh right, acting right. So 235 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: something that I also found interesting was that Sullivan actually 236 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: tried convincing the jurors that the victim wanted to be 237 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: ZiT tied. That was another reason that kind of boggles 238 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: my mind while that he got away with the kidnapping 239 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: and gun charges. In fact, when he had taken her, 240 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: you know, promised her this ride to where she needed 241 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: to go, which was home from her aunt's funeral, m 242 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: he led her into a remote area where he promised 243 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: her there would be secret veins of her poise that 244 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: she could make money off of. So again, that just 245 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: kind of shocked me when I read that the judge 246 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: even beside he said, the jury didn't buy your story, 247 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: and I didn't buy it, the suggestion that she wanted 248 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: to be zip tied to buy his through Creduel piece. 249 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: I'm not surprised the jury didn't buy You know what, 250 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: I'm not surprised either, Jennifer, But I'm angry. I'm angry 251 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: that the jury didn't get him on kidnapping because if 252 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: they hadn't gotten him on kidnapping, he may have been 253 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: behind bars for another twenty years. And you know what, 254 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: I want to go to James Shellnutt. You've been in 255 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: the business along with me, You've been at twenty seven years. 256 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: Major case. Does it never end? The blaming the victim 257 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: like after her aunt's at funeral, she wanted to go 258 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: out into the rugged terrain, get zip tide, face down 259 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: on the dirt and raped. I mean, what is wrong 260 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: with that jury? I don't know that. I mean it 261 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: angers me that this was done to this lady and 262 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: she's victimized. They look at her like she has somehow 263 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: done something wrong when she nearly lost her life. She's 264 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: been permanently traumatized by this. It is outrageous that this 265 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: is the result that occurred in that case. I'm just 266 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: so mad. I could she would nail in half. Let 267 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: me go to doctor Tim Gallagher, Medical Examiner's State of Florida. 268 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: So question to you, could you just explain something to 269 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: me about sperm? Yes, I know where it comes from, 270 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: but I recall telling juries that at least after seventy 271 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: two hours three days, by the end, for sure, the 272 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: sperm had quote broken down degenerated. The tail comes off first, 273 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: the head comes off next, and the sperm starts to degenerate. 274 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: Now this is a yes, no doctor, is that much true? Yes, 275 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: it is okay, Thank goodness, I was right when I 276 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: told that to the juries. So how long can the 277 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: sperm be in or on the body and it be 278 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: found by a rape kit, nurse or doctor and preserved 279 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: and DNA extracted. How long can it survive? Well, the 280 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: first thing to know is that, yes, after three days, 281 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: the sperm itself begins to degrade. Like you said before, 282 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: the head comes off, the tail comes off, and it 283 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: stops becoming mobile. That's the organism itself, or that's the 284 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: sperm itself. But the DNA within the sperm maintains itself, 285 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: for it can maintain itself indefinitely under the right set 286 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: of conditions. So it's the DNA that they check for 287 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: in the sperm, and the sperm DNA is different than 288 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: any other DNA that you will find in the body, 289 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: so that sperm DNA itself can be preserved under the 290 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: right conditions for years and years indefinitely an innocent some case, Well, 291 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:20,719 Speaker 1: how is sperm DNA different from other DNA. The DNA 292 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: in the body is known as double stranded or double 293 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 1: helix DNA. The DNA in the sperm is just a 294 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: single strand of DNA because the offspring is a combination 295 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: of the DNA of the father and a DNA of 296 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: the mother, So the mother contributes one half of the DNA, 297 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,239 Speaker 1: the father contributes the other half of the DNA, and 298 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: together they form the double helix in the embryo. So 299 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: the so a part of the DNA, which is one strand, 300 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: is contributed by the father, the other part of the DNA, 301 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: which is the other strand, and the complementary strand is 302 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: contributed by the mother, and then together that forms the embryo. 303 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: So the DNA in the sperm is just one strand 304 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: as opposed to two strands of DNA in the rest 305 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: of the body. And one follow up question, doctor Tim Gallagher, 306 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: when you say sperm, which is double stranded or double 307 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: helix DNA is different from all other DNA found in 308 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: the body. What other DNA found in the body? You 309 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: mean like blood or tissue. Right, there's DNA in every 310 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: cell of the body that has a nucleus in it, 311 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: for instance, your skin cells, or the cells that make 312 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: up your organs such as your liver, your pancreas, the 313 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 1: DNA that's in your hair roots, you know, are different 314 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: than sperm DNA. So a good DNA technologist can differentiate 315 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: exactly what part of the body that DNA was taken from. Wow. 316 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: So so it's a double strand or double helix, single strand? 317 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: Would you say single helix or well, right, yeah, it 318 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: takes it takes two strands to make the psychic leg. 319 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: If you think of a spiral staircase, the banister you know, 320 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: on a spiral staircase, that would be an example of 321 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: a double helix. But if you could think about a 322 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: single strand, which wuld be just one of those banisters, 323 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: you know, and half of the spiral staircase, that would 324 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: because you don't have a helix parent, right, you won't 325 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: have a helix, just have a kind of a wavy 326 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: d thing, so it's just single strand. Okay. Well, speaking 327 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: of the DNA left behind on that two thousand and 328 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: seven hitchhiker that the jury almost totally screwed over, one 329 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: good thing came out of that. Take a little Star 330 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: Friends at Colo TV ed Pierce Sullivan was charged with 331 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: the kidnapping an attempted rape of a hitchhiker he picked 332 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: up in the High Sierra at the intersection of I 333 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: eighty and Highway twenty. Devada County authorities say he took 334 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 1: the young woman to a remote spot near Bowman Lake, 335 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: produced a gun, handcuffter bound her ankles with tie wraps 336 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 1: and told her he'd let her go after a few 337 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: days of sex. When he returned to his van, she 338 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: got loose, found her way to do some campers and freedom. 339 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: The jury couldn't agree on the more serious charges, but 340 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: convicted him instead of false imprisonment. He received a sentence 341 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: of less than four years and was eventually paroled to 342 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: southern California. Grand jury testimony reveals that DNA taken from 343 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: him during that investigation was used nearly a decade later 344 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: to link him to Julia Woodward's murder. Now at the 345 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: time of the two thousand and seven about a County case, 346 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: an investigator said that victim was extremely lucky to have 347 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: escaped and be alive. The victim herself was quoted as 348 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: saying she feared this was not the first time it 349 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: is committing this kind of crime, adding only the difference 350 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: being I got away and he got caught, you know, 351 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: to Jennifer Skasky, investigator reporter heavy dot com, is there 352 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: another body? On October twenty seventh of nineteen seventy eight, 353 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: another beautiful young woman, seventeen year old Jennie Smith, was 354 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: seen leaving the circus Circus Hotel and Casino, which is 355 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: also in Reno, Nevada, where she worked as a waitress. 356 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: She did not work that day though, and she had 357 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: been meeting up with friends. Later that night, she was 358 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: leaving with a man who friends said was referred to 359 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: as Chuck, and the friends also said she may have 360 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: been planning by cocaine from this Chuck. Jennie was never 361 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: seen again. According to a nineteen seventy nine article from 362 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: the Reno Gazette, the woman's just parent's case had been 363 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: closed by investigators on September seventeenth, nineteen seventy nine, because 364 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: her parents had moved out of state, But then just 365 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: days later, on November second, nineteen seventy nine, only about 366 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: eight months after Julia Woodward's body was discovered, the body 367 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 1: of Jennie Smith was found less than a mile away 368 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: from where Julia's body was found in Michelle. In the 369 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: same articles from nineteen seventy nine, it's revealed that woodwards 370 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: remains were identified by authorities just two days prior to 371 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: Genie Smith's remains also being identified. Take a listen to this. 372 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: But the nobail motion also cites two other unsolved cases. 373 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: One has long been linked to Woodward's murder by obvious circumstance. 374 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: Seventeen year old Genie Smith was last seen in downtown 375 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: Reno in nineteen seventy eight. Her remains were found a 376 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: year later, not far from where Woodward's body was found, 377 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: in the same remote area of Hungry Valley. According to 378 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: the state's motion, Sullivan was a person of interest in 379 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: the investigation of Smith's death, but fled the state soon after, 380 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: not because of that case, but as Reno police began 381 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: to question him about the disappearance of yet another woman, 382 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 1: Linda Taylor, who disappeared during the same time period. Sullivan 383 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: initially said he didn't no Taylor, but later admitted he 384 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: had been on a date with her. Her body was 385 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: never found. The conclusion of the state's argument, all evidence 386 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: points to the defendant being a serial killer responsible for 387 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: Julia woodwards murder and other time stories with Nancy Grace 388 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: to Jennifer Zahousky heavy dot com, who's Linda Taylor? Linda Taylor, 389 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: She's a twenty three year old another yell, another young 390 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: woman who went missing from Reno, Nevada. Authorities had asked 391 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: for the public's assistance in identifying a man who was 392 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: last seen with Linda at a bank that was only 393 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: a I'm sorry, only a couple of days before she 394 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: went missing. A kid then led detectives you know you've 395 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: got it to Charles Garry Sullivan and like it was 396 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: just announced that he initially denied knowing her or having 397 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: any involvement with her, but later confessed to have been 398 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: caught on a date with her. Her car was discovered 399 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: nine days after she was reported in the scene at 400 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: a grocery store and the Springhill brings chills. The vehicle 401 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: was only about ten miles away from where the remains 402 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: of Julia Woodward and Jeannie Smith were found. When police 403 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: went to interview two of sullivan text girlfriends regarding the case, 404 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: they reportedly refused to talk and both moved away, one 405 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: to Arizona because she said her mother was dying, and 406 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: the other to California who claimed her father was on 407 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: its dot fund. Which is a little strange that each 408 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: of these women women had such similar stories to tell 409 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: detectives and her body I'm sorry has never been found. Well, 410 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: you know what to Ashley Willcott, judge and trial lawyer Ashley, 411 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: when a guy like Charles Gary Sullivan says he took 412 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: this missing girl, Linda Taylor on a date. What does 413 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: that date say to you? Yeah, a date, my fanny. 414 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: I just think that what it means is you have 415 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 1: to look closer, and it's a huge red flag because 416 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: that doesn't make good sense. It doesn't sound like that's 417 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: likely what happened. And a date quote unquote probably means 418 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: he did something against her. Will you know to you, 419 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: Jennifer Zikowski, we know police are now investigating Sullivan for 420 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 1: the murder of seventeen year old Jeanie Smith. As you 421 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: told us, her remains also found the same area where 422 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: Julia's body was found. What are the parallels similarities in 423 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: those two cases? Okay, so the similarities between Julia Woodward 424 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: and Genie Smith's cases. In February of this year, when 425 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,959 Speaker 1: they were talking about re examining Julia Woodward's case, Lieutenant 426 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: Tom Reed at the Washall County Sheriff's Department said of 427 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 1: both cases to ADC eight, quote, it's very unusual that 428 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: two victims from the same year with similar circumstances would 429 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: be found in the same geographical area like that. The 430 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: similarities that these brutal murders can't be denied and according 431 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: to police, both women's rye eyes were covered by bandages. 432 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: Julia Woodward's eyes had actual band aids covering them, while 433 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: Genie Smiths were said to have been covered by medical paint. 434 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: Both had their identification and underwear taken from them, and 435 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: each woman was left with only one shoe, which makes 436 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: me wonder if he was keeping these things as trophies 437 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: per se, as we often hear of serial killers. It 438 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: is also believed that both of the female victims are 439 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: bludging and death with rocks, as both murder scenes there 440 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: were bloody rocks found covered with hair and blood. Julia 441 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: and Genie each died also as a result of fractured skulls, 442 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: and of course the fact that these young women's bodies 443 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: were discovered within a quarter mile of each other and 444 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: both buried in shallow graves. Yes, the similarities are incredible 445 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: in your line of work, Ashley willcought, we in our 446 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: line of what we call it a fingerprint crime, and 447 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: you can use that in court, as you well know, 448 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: when a prosecutor chooses or goes forward with trial to 449 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: prosecute a case, they can look at similar modus upper 450 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: and date the similar ways of conducting the crimes of 451 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: committing the crimes, because honestly, it goes to the old saying, 452 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: there's no such thing as a coincidence, much less that many. 453 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: It's a pattern. It's what they've done to each victim 454 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace. You know something I don't 455 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: understand you, Kaskey, is that if his DNA, if they 456 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: had had it for so long after or he abducted 457 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: the female hitchhik or AA in two thousand and seven, 458 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: what took him so long to charge him with Julia 459 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: Woodward's murder? That is such a great question. You know, 460 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: I'm not familiar with all of the cool cases and 461 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: can Reno Nevada. I imagine there are many, and I'm 462 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: not sure exactly the timeline of how long DNA takes 463 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: to process and things like that. But the truth of 464 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: the matter is is that the DNA was discovered on 465 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: Julia Woodward's genes and it was connected to Sullivans. Oxygen 466 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: reported that there wasn't any quote specific evidence brought up 467 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: to the grand jury in the case of Julia, and 468 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: his attorney David Houston posed the question that quote, even 469 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: if DNA shows he had contact her with her. Where 470 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: is the act of murder proof? She just happened to 471 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: have his DNA all over her and she was bashed 472 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: in with a rock. But let me ask you a question. 473 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: When was Julia's body found? We have bodies, Okay, on 474 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: March twenty fourth of nineteen seventy nine. If Julia's body 475 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: was found, it was discovered about fifteen miles north of 476 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: Reno in a hungry valley. Got it and then Jeannie 477 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: was last nineteen seventy eight, so they're about a year apart. 478 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: But to you, doctor Tim Gallagher, Medical Examiner, State of Florida, Yes, 479 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: it took a long time to connect the two, but 480 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: we have to remember that newly discovered DNA techniques have 481 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: just occurred. It may have been this, you know, some 482 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: new technique that made it possible to analyze the DNA 483 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: on Julia's body. That is correct, Nancy. And not only 484 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: has new techniques become available, but databases DNA databases that 485 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: are present in individual states now can speak with each other. 486 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: Now are connected with each other. So once the DNA 487 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: has been identified, it can be searched through many many databases, 488 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: through many many areas of the country, and then a 489 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: match can be made that way, where in previous cases, 490 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: if the DNA was found in one state and the 491 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: crime was found in another state, that connection could never 492 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: be Jennifer Zikowski, do you believe that Charles Gary Sullivan 493 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: now seventy three, living quietly as a plumber, is a 494 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: serial killer? And why you know, every arrow to me 495 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: is pointing in that direction. You've got these these three 496 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: young vulnerable women's these three women that we know of? 497 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: How many more women are they're out there that police, 498 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: you know, may not have talked about yet, that the 499 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: DNA hasn't been submitted yet. Four. I believe if that, 500 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: there are going to be several, if not numerous, more 501 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: cases that arise out of this. What about it? To 502 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: James shell Nutt, Thank you's a serial killer? Why? Or 503 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: why not? Yeah? I think it's a serial killer. Look, 504 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: this guy has got connections to all of these women 505 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: who come up missing. He has got a pattern of 506 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: sexual abuse of a victim, at least one that we 507 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: know of, that's common and prolific amongst serial killers. This 508 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: guy's got tied to two different women who were both 509 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: found with the same serial killer signature. A third victim 510 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: that he's suspected of. Yeah, this guy's a serial killer. 511 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: This guy is dangerous. And I will tell you there 512 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: could easily be many more victims that we're not aware of, 513 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:47,959 Speaker 1: that may not be known. But chies are there. How 514 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: many victims are there that we know of? Well so 515 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: far through You know Linda Tailor, he's a suspect in 516 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: in her disappearance. Of course her body has not been 517 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: found yet. Jeanie Smith, who's you know, the similarities between 518 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: her and Julia Woodward, you can't deny them. And I 519 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: would also say that it's important to talk about his 520 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: Google searches. So after he became registered as a sex 521 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,479 Speaker 1: offender in California, after the two thousand and seven crime 522 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: against this innocent young woman who had been had hitch hiking. 523 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,719 Speaker 1: According to Oxygen, he searched the phrases for child sex, 524 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: naked children, and lost hikers in California. If that's not 525 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: chilly Wow to Ashley Walcott, is this guy a serial killer? Oh? 526 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: I absolutely think he is a First and foremost, he's 527 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: a predator. But secondly, I have no doubt. I completely 528 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: agree with the comments that have been made. He is 529 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: a serial killer. He has a method, a mayor who 530 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: the victim is, it's the victim of opportunity that he 531 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: can do these specific things too. With the DNA steps 532 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: against him, what do you believe he can expect at trial? 533 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I know that Nevada is a death penalty state. 534 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: What about it, Ashley? It absolutely is a death penalty state. 535 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: And as the reality of that is, if he is 536 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: convicted of first degree murder, then he faces sentencing of 537 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: the death penalty or in the alternative life without parole question, Jennifer, 538 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 1: does Nevada have life without parole? They do, And in fact, 539 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: with the case from two thousand and seven, he could 540 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: have received that had he been charged with the original 541 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 1: crimes rather than the lesser crimes that he received only 542 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: three and a half years of prisons of absolutely, how 543 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: do you think he managed, Jennifer, how do you think 544 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: he managed to avoid police for four decades? You know, 545 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: it's it's such a good question. He knew what he 546 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: was doing, He was methodical about his approach. He you know, 547 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: we see these Google searches now from two thousand and seven, 548 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, you know, when he became a 549 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: registered sex offender. But back then we didn't have Google 550 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: searches to go back on. So what was he looking up? Then? Um, 551 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: I have no doubt that he had a method to 552 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: his approach, that there was something with hitchhikers and these 553 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: vulnerable women that he went after and somehow escaped police, 554 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,439 Speaker 1: even though you know, there were there were so many 555 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: signs that pointed to him, including you know, going on 556 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: at deep with Linda Taylor who had disappeared, whose body 557 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: has never been found. Right so to James shell Nutt, 558 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 1: how do you believe he went under the radar and 559 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: avoided detection for forty years. I believe it was a 560 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: perfect stole over this guy, Nancy. Look, you know, think 561 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: about it. You know, this is at a time when 562 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: a lot of these murders happened before the advent of 563 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: DNA as we know it today. He lived in an 564 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: area that he had a close, desolate place to dump 565 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: the bodies at Yoke Desert close by a lot of 566 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 1: these women were women that were discarded by society and 567 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: discarded by others. You know, when you think about back 568 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: in those times, it was not a time where everybody 569 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 1: had a social media account. You know, if you were 570 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: living across country, it was a little bit more difficult 571 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: to communicate with those around you, or your presence was 572 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: not quite as known like it would be on Facebook 573 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: or Snapchat or other things. And so I think it 574 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 1: was based off the time and error when these things happened, 575 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: the availability of a desolate proximity for him to dump 576 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: these bodies, the advent of DNA had not come as 577 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: far as long as it was, and I think it 578 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: was a perfect storm. But fortunately that storm came to 579 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: a head, and he's known for what he's done at 580 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 1: this point in time. Take a Little Star Friends at 581 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: Kate in XV ABC fifteen, Nicole Valdez. Duncan, though, says, 582 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: if you ask his wife, she loves her husband said 583 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: he's convinced. She's convinced and told me that he would 584 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: never do such a thing, and she's going to defend 585 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: her husband. But she's not so sure. And if anything worried, 586 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: Woodward may not be the only victim. Among dozens of investigators, 587 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: cadaver dogs search the entire High Country block, Duncan confronted detectives. 588 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: I asked him why are they cadaver dogs here? And 589 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: he said, I can't tell you because we're investigating and 590 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: we cannot say anything. But the only thing I can 591 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: tell you our agency uses these dogs when we're looking 592 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: for dead bodies. Crime lab sources tell ABC fifteen investigators 593 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: from the Arizona Department of Public Safety were given Sullivan's 594 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: DNA for testing seeing birds fly around, you know, like 595 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: I said, Oh my gosh, are they looking for body pieces? 596 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: Sullivan could be connected to other murders in Arizona, but 597 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: how many. This was a very big crime, I am 598 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: a huge crime. And we still don't know, and I 599 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: would like to know. We wait as justice unfalls. Nancy 600 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: Gray Crime Stories, signing off goodbye friend,