1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. It's time 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: for us six Impossible Episodes. If you are new to 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: the show. Every once in a while, we do an 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: episode where we cover six topics that, for one reason 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: or another, we can't really do in a full length episode. 8 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: This ums to happen about every six months. But I 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:37,279 Speaker 1: just didn't have six things it's conveniently as simpled um. 10 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: Sometimes this is because there's not enough information for a 11 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: whole episode for a particular topic, or maybe because taken together, 12 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: all the topics as a group kind of tell a story. 13 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: We've done a few of these in which the subjects 14 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: are just so similar to other episodes that we've already 15 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: done that it almost feels like historical deja vu. So 16 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: there's lots of different reasons that we go with this format. 17 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: Some times we are calling today's episode six Impossible Episodes. 18 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: There's a book about that, because these are episodes that 19 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: we would love to do as a full length episode. 20 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: And in some cases we've gotten listener requests and sometimes 21 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: a lot of listener requests, but there's a book, like 22 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: one book that is so central to the subject that 23 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: the book is really the place to go for the 24 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: information rather than our podcast. Yeah, Tracy and I have 25 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: talked about these before, and it's like, at that point, 26 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: aren't we just doing a book report? Yeah? Yeah, uh So, 27 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: first we're going to kick off with William Dorsey Swan 28 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: and before we get to the topic that inspired today's episode, 29 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: we also wanted to quickly recap how we research and 30 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: write the show. Typically, we record two episodes a week, 31 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: with each of us researching and writing one of them. 32 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: Our research processes are similar, but not identical. We have 33 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: each figured out what works best for us over the years, 34 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: and it's a little different for Tracy versus me. But 35 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: regardless of which of us is researching or what topic 36 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: we're doing, we are drawing in information from multiple sources 37 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: and we're synthesizing that into an outline that we have 38 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: written ourselves. So even if there's one source that's doing 39 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: some heavy lifting in that process, there are also lots 40 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: of other ones that we're using to fill in gaps 41 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 1: and confirm details and provide multiple perspectives on the subject. 42 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: But for the topics that we're talking about today. As 43 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, there's just really one book that would 44 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: provide almost all of the end depth research. The basics 45 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: might be out there in the world through multiple sources, 46 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: but not the deeper details. So either the author did 47 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: all the research to write the first ever book on 48 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: a subject, or maybe they translated a work into English 49 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: for the first time, or like did some analysis that's 50 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: just become an irreplaceable part of our understanding of the topic. 51 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: Number One, those authors and historians really deserve the focus 52 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: and the credit for having done all of that work, 53 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: because if you are the one person researching a book, 54 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: you're doing so much footwork, uh, if it is not 55 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: previously established research. And number two, if we try to 56 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,839 Speaker 1: just summarize that one work into an episode, well, as 57 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: we just said, that's that's a book report, or that's 58 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that 59 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,519 Speaker 1: it kind of verges on plagiarism in some cases. Um 60 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: trying to distill a unique original work down to a 61 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: thirty or forty minute episode, it just feels a little 62 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: bit incongruous with what our processes and kind of our 63 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: our mission for the show. Yes. Sometimes when we say 64 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: that to folks, they say, we'll just have the author on. 65 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: We do have authors and historians on the show to 66 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: talk about their books, but most of the time those 67 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: books are newly released, and so they're coming onto the 68 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: show as part of their publicity work for the book. 69 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: Usually we have either met the author before, or we've 70 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: gotten some kind of publicity email from the publisher, or 71 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: maybe we have a contact with the publisher that we 72 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: can ask. Um. I'm not saying it's impossible to get 73 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: an author on the show without any of that, but 74 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: I have for sure gone down some real and very 75 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: unsuccessful rabbit holes trying to track folks down. This is 76 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: not a solicitation for advice on how to do it. Here. 77 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: If you're about to say, why don't you just tweet 78 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: at them, well, that's the thing that we've tried before 79 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: hasn't necessarily worked out. Yeah, I promise we do know 80 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: how to reach out to people. Sometimes it is not fruitful. Um. 81 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: And this brings us to the topic that inspired today's episode, 82 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: which is actually a forthcoming book, but it's one that 83 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: we have gotten so many requests for over the last 84 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: few months. Thanks to some post that have gone viral, 85 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: and as I mentioned earlier, it is William Dorsey Swan. 86 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: So fifteen years ago Channing Gerard Joseph was taking a 87 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: class in investigative reporting at Columbia University and stumbled over 88 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: the name William Dorsey Swan in an old Washington Post 89 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: article when we say old. This article was dated April 90 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty eight, and the headline read quote negro dive 91 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: rated thirteen black men dressed as women surprised at supper 92 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: and arrested. William Dorsey Swan, who called himself a queen 93 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: of drag and was known as just the Queen, was 94 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: among them. Joseph wrote an article about Swan that was 95 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: published in the Nation in January of which seems to 96 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: have been the information source for various viral posts that 97 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: have circulated since then, catching listeners attention and leading to 98 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: a lot of episode requests. And yes, Swan absolutely seems 99 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: up our alley. He sounds fascinating. He was enslaved from 100 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,799 Speaker 1: birth and then went on to be a huge part 101 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: of the drag scene in Washington, d C. After the 102 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: US Civil War, he tried to get a pardon from 103 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: President Grover Cleveland in the first documented legal action to 104 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: protect lgbt Q rights in the United States. SWA story 105 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: really touches on so many things, including the history of 106 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: drag balls, gender, race, cross dressing, and trans history. But 107 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: the book does not exist yet. Once it does, we 108 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: are hoping folks go to read it. We are for 109 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: sure looking forward to doing that. That forthcoming book, based 110 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: on Joseph's original research into William Dorsey Swan is titled 111 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: House of Swan Where Slaves Became Queens And at present 112 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: it is expected from Crown that's a subsidiary of Penguin 113 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: Random House, UH, to publish in the US in one 114 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: and from Piccadore that's McMillan in the UK. Yeah, I 115 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: would say it might. I don't know if it's optimistic 116 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 1: or not that it will be out in I know 117 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: the pandemic has totally shifted a lot of public publishing schedules. 118 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: And I also know um that I have had this 119 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: one particular book on my list to try to to 120 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: get in touch with the author. Uh, and it's like 121 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: noted in my little list, And it originally said forthcoming 122 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, and then it said forthcoming in and 123 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: now it's hiss forth coming in, so book deadlines and 124 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: timelines can shift around sometimes. Just so folks know we've 125 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: gotten so many requests about him. Yes, he does sound 126 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: completely fascinating um and hopefully in the future a book 127 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: to read. Next up is the one topic that we're 128 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: talking about today that I don't actually think we have 129 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: gotten a specific requests from listeners about, and this is 130 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: Ethiopian st well a lot of petros So, as we 131 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: talked about in our episode on the rock hewn churches 132 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: of Lollibella, Christianity was established and what's now Ethiopia during 133 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: the time of the Oxymite Empire. Christianity was really widely 134 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: practiced there by about the sixth century, and this was 135 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: a lot earlier than Christianity was established in many other 136 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: parts of Africa for centuries. People living in the Horn 137 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: of Africa also didn't have that much content act with 138 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: other Christian communities, So the Orthodox Christianity that developed there 139 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: was unique in a lot of ways, with beliefs and 140 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: practices that could be more similar to Judaism than to 141 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: what would become the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox churches. 142 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: But in the sixteen hundreds, Ethiopian Emperor Lebna Danel asked 143 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: Portugal for help in fighting off an invasion. In the aftermath, 144 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: Portuguese Jesuits arrived and started trying to convert Ethiopian Orthodox 145 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: Christians to Roman Catholicism. And that brings us back to 146 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: Aletta Petros Well. A lot of Petros lived in Ethiopia 147 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,719 Speaker 1: in the early seventeenth century and was married to one 148 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: of the emperor's counselors. All three of their children died 149 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: in their infancy, and while a lot of Petro's decided 150 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: to become a nun, she sort of felt like she 151 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: was she was done with the more material world after 152 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: all that. After the king was convinced to make Roman 153 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: Catholicism the state religion, and the Ethiopian Orthodox Toahadow Church 154 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: was banned. She's are did a nonviolent resistance movement, even 155 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 1: as the king exiled her and threatened to kill her family. 156 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: She also founded her own religious community and developed a 157 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 1: reputation for being a very skilled preacher. This also touches 158 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: on so many things that we love. This is the 159 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: earliest known book length biography of an African woman, and 160 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: it's one of the earliest written documents detailing African resistance 161 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: against European influence. It also details will Letta Petro's lifelong 162 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: partnership with another woman that was another nun named ahead 163 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: of Christos. It's one of only a few hagiographies of 164 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: Ethiopian women's saints, and it is a huge source of 165 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,239 Speaker 1: information just about what daily life was like in seventeenth 166 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: century Ethiopia. So the book about her is the life 167 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: and struggles of our mother a lot of Petros, and 168 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: it was written by a disciple in sixteen seventy two, 169 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: that was about thirty years after her death. Often something 170 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: that old is something we would just refer to about 171 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: a lot of uh concerns, because you know, it's it's 172 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: it's a classic document in the public domain. But this 173 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: was translated into English for the first time ever by 174 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: Wendy Laura Belcher and Michael Kleiner. Belcher is a professor 175 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: of comparative early Modern African and European literatures and grew 176 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: up in Ethiopia and Ghana, and Kleiner is a translator 177 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: who specializes in, among other things, Yeaz, which is the 178 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: language that this work was originally written in. This translation 179 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: earned multiple awards, including the Best Scholarly Edition in translation 180 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: from the Society for Early Modern Women. It is also 181 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: fairly long. It's more than five hundred pages for the 182 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: full version, although there's also a concise edition that is 183 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: just over a hundred and sixty pages. Let's take a 184 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: quick break before we get to a particularly popular one 185 00:10:52,520 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: of these. Now, next up, we have another very frequent 186 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: listener request. I would say this is one of the 187 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: topics we have gotten almost the largest number of requests 188 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: for over the years. Yeah, if I were placing bets, 189 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: I would say this has the most requests. Yeah, it's 190 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: definitely in the top five, if not the most. And 191 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 1: this is also something that we alluded to in our 192 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: listener Q and a episode that we did earlier this summer. 193 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: It is Henrietta Lacks. And we've gotten so many requests 194 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: to talk about Henrietta Lax over the years, and we 195 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: haven't for two reasons. One is that a big part 196 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 1: of her story is that her body and her privacy 197 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: were violated without her consent, and in some ways, are 198 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: doing an episode on her felt like a continuation of 199 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: that invasion. That is compounded by our second reason, we 200 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: would really just be distilling down a book by someone 201 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: who actually did work with the Lax family. That is. 202 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: Rebecca Sclute, author of the Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks, 203 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: spent years researching Henrietta LAX's story in her life and 204 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: the impact of her cells on medical science, as well 205 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: as earning the trust of the Lax family before publishing 206 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: the book, and in her acknowledgements, Scalout describes Henrietta's daughter 207 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: Deborah as the soul of the book and her thanks 208 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: to the other Lax family members and friends. It goes 209 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: on for paragraphs after that. So here are the basics. 210 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: Henrietta Lax was a black woman who was diagnosed with 211 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: cervical cancer in nineteen fifty one. She had five children. 212 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: The family was poor. They were working as tobacco farmers 213 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: in Virginia. Lax was treated at Johns Hopkins, which was 214 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: a segregated hospital at the time, but also one of 215 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 1: the very few leading hospitals that actually treated black patients. 216 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: Lax died less than a year after being diagnosed, on 217 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:52,199 Speaker 1: October fourth, ninety one, at the age of just thirty one. 218 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: While Lax was being treated, a doctor named George Gay 219 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: collected cells from her cervix. He did not tell her 220 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,359 Speaker 1: he was doing this, he did not ask her permission. 221 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: This really wasn't unusual at the time, since the ideas 222 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: of informed consent and patient privacy didn't really exist in 223 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: the same way that they do today. What was really 224 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: unusual where the cells themselves. At that point, researchers had 225 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: not been able to keep cells alive outside the human 226 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: body for very long, but the cells from LAX's body 227 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: kept on living and multiplying. They doubled almost every twenty 228 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: four hours. This was the first immortal cell line ever 229 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: to be discovered. They were named HeLa cells, after the 230 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: first letters of Henrietta LAX's first and last name. These 231 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: cells became a fundamental part of medical and pharmaceutical research. 232 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: The polio vaccine was developed using HeLa cells, so were 233 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: drugs to treat leukemia, Parkinson's disease, and influenza. Researchers used 234 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: HeLa cells to isolate the human immuno deficiency virus. In 235 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: the early years of the space program, they were into 236 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: orbit to study the effects of low gravity. They have 237 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: also been used to study the effects of radiation and poisons. 238 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: More than seventy thousand published studies have relied on HeLa cells, 239 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: and at least two Nobel Prizes have been awarded to 240 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: research that used them. This list goes on and on 241 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: and on. Johns Hopkins offered these cells to other researchers 242 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: and institutions freely. It didn't make money from them, but 243 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: that is not true of the companies that used them 244 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: to develop things like pharmaceuticals. As Debra Lax clearly spells 245 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: out Insclutes book, HeLa cells were part of all this research, 246 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: and some companies turned huge profits from their use, and 247 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: yet members of the Lax family couldn't afford to see 248 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: a doctor. Henrietta LAX's story is a lot better known 249 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: now than it was when we first made the decision 250 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: to direct listeners to Rebecca Sclutes book rather than do 251 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: an episode ourselves in the interim. There was even an 252 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: HBO movie about it that came out in Since the 253 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: publication of the Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks, Johns Hopkins 254 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: and other hospitals and organizations have also started to take 255 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: a more critical look at issues involving racism, medical ethics, 256 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: and informed consent, and that is work that is definitely 257 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: still ongoing. Henrietta Lacks's descendants have also talked about how 258 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: they want people to know about her story and about 259 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: how much her cells have contributed to medical science. So 260 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: talking about her on the show feels like way less 261 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: of an invasion of her privacy now than it did 262 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: back when we first made that call. But Rebecca sclutes groundbreaking, original, 263 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: and deeply influential work continues to be the best source 264 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: for all of this. I know a lot of people 265 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: who love to listen to podcasts want to listen to 266 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: other things and audio format, and this is also available 267 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: as an audiobook. Also, this year is the hundredth anniversary 268 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: of Henrietta A. LAX's birth and there is a year 269 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: long centennial seller ration ongoing. You can find more at 270 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: HELO one hundred dot org. That is h E. L 271 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: A one hundred zero zero dot org. Okay, moving on. 272 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: Martha Moore was born in Oxford, Massachusetts, in seventeen thirty five. 273 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: When she was about nineteen, she married from Ballard. Later 274 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: they moved to Hollowell, Maine, where Martha Ballard became a midwife. 275 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: On January one, five, when she was fifty, Ballard started 276 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: keeping a diary of her daily life and work. That 277 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: was something that she kept up for the next twenty 278 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: seven years, ending on May twelve, eighteen twelve, and that 279 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: diary ended up totaling up with ten thousand entries. We've 280 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: talked about other diaries on the show, like the ones 281 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: kept by Anne Lister and Samuel Peeps, and how they 282 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: give us a look not only at the diarist, but 283 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: also at the time and place that they were living, 284 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: and this is true for Ballard's diary too. It details 285 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: her work as a midwife and a healer. She documented 286 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: more than eight hundred birth she attended over those twenty 287 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: seven years. She also documents what life was like in 288 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: the Keunebec River Valley region in the late eighteenth and 289 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: early nineteenth centuries. So this diary is a unique and 290 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: important document. It's full of information about the medicine and 291 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: midwiffery at the time, written in an era when many 292 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: white women could read at least a little, but often 293 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: could not write at all. It also includes a wealth 294 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: of information about people who are never mentioned in a 295 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: lot of other primary sources, including tax and census records 296 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: that would typically be used for that kind of information. 297 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: Ballard kept her diary in this collection of little booklets 298 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: that she made herself, and then those booklets were passed 299 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: down through her family, ultimately being given to great great 300 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: granddaughter Mary Hobart. Hobart was a doctor and she was 301 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,959 Speaker 1: given these diaries as a gift when she graduated from 302 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: medical school. Hobart put them together in order. They had 303 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: been sort of in disarray, not really chronological anymore, so 304 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: she put them in order and bound them together in 305 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: this handmade linen cover and then donated that to the 306 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: main State Library in n There are a few ways 307 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: to get a look at Martha Ballard's diary today. One 308 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: is the website do history dot org, which has a browsable, 309 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: searchable scan of the document. As is the case with 310 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 1: most historical diaries, it's tricky to read, both because of 311 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: Ballard's handwriting, which is rather cramped, and because her system 312 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: of abbreviations and marks for keeping up with midwiffery work. 313 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: And she also had phonetic spellings for words, so it's 314 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: not a natural flowing read for your casual researcher. I 315 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: often have a really challenging time deciphering handwritten documents from 316 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: long in the past, or even my own handwritten documents 317 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: from yesterday. Fortunately, do history dot org also includes text 318 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 1: transcriptions of the scanned pages of handwritten diary. These were 319 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: done i husband and wife team, Robert R. Mccosland and 320 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: Cynthia mcalmond mccosland. They spent about ten years on this project. 321 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 1: There is a print version of their transcription that is 322 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: almost a thousand pages long. It seems to be out 323 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: of print now, but it's still available in a lot 324 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: of libraries, particularly university libraries. The third is the reason 325 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: Martha Ballard is in the category of there's a book 326 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: about it. It's a Midwife's Tale, the Life of Martha Ballard, 327 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: based on her diary, which was written by Laurel Thatcher 328 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: all Rich. That name sounds familiar. It maybe because we 329 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: mentioned her in our episode about the women of Gettysburg, 330 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: which we titled Fearless, Feisty and unflagging. All Rich as 331 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: a person who coined the phrase well behaved women seldom 332 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: make history. She also wrote the introduction to the mccaslin's 333 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: transcription of the diary. In a Midwife's Tale, she follows 334 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: selections from the diary with context and analysis. There are 335 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: these brief notes about your Ballard went and who she 336 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: saw on a particular day become a narrative about her life, 337 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: along with just a wealth of context about gender, medicine, religion, 338 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: domestic life, and crime, including a mass murder and a 339 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: trial for rape. This is rich and fascinating, and it 340 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: earned All Rich the Pulitzer Prize in History in and 341 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: it is also an audio book, and it was made 342 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: into a PBS American Experience film called A Midwife's Tale 343 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: in that doesn't seem to be streaming anywhere at the moment, 344 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: but it is available on DVD. And now we're going 345 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: to take another quick sponsor break. Over the past year 346 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: or so, I have tried several times to figure out 347 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: how to approach an episode on Trauta of Salerno or 348 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: the Trotula, which is a medieval compendium on women's medicine 349 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: and cosmetics. A lot of sources conflate Trata and the Trotula, 350 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: creating this impression that the compendium is the work of 351 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: only one author who was either named Trata or Trachula. Well, 352 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,719 Speaker 1: of course it's gotta be the same thing that there 353 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: are no duplicate words in history. Um. But the reality 354 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: is that the Trotula is really a compilation of three 355 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: texts by three different people, one of them being an 356 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: Italian medical practitioner known as Trata or Tracta. These three 357 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: separate works were copied, revised, and shuffled around over centuries 358 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: until an editor rearranged them into one volume in four 359 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 1: and that addition became the dominant version for the next 360 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: four hundred years. But the manuscripts really date back to 361 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: about the twelfth century. I kept running into trouble with 362 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: this research because there's just virtually no biographical information that 363 00:21:55,560 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: has survived about Trata, and the wide spread had trot 364 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: to slash Trachola confusion just through a ranch into my 365 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: research process. Every time I found a document that seemed 366 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: promising that then made it seem like those were the 367 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: same thing, I was like, well, now I don't trust 368 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: this at all, um. And then also as I kept 369 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: picking away at it, I realized that the sources that 370 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: were the clearest about this distinction between the person and 371 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: the work we're all by the same author. Dr Monica H. Green. 372 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: It's not unusual for us to use more than one 373 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: article or book by the same historian as research for 374 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: an episode of our show, but in this case, it 375 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: would feel like the entire source list was stuff by 376 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: Dr Green. Dr Green has been working with the Trachella 377 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: for many years, including separating out those three different manuscripts. 378 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: Those are on the Condition of Women, On the Treatments 379 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: for Women, and on Women's Cosmetics and Dr Green determined 380 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: that On Treatments for Women was by a real historical 381 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: woman named Trata, and this brings up something really cool 382 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: about the Trotula. It's likely that the other two works 383 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: were written by men whose names have been lost, so 384 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: a woman was ultimately the one credited for this work. 385 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: It so often goes the opposite way. In addition to 386 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: publishing numerous papers and articles about this subject, Green has 387 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: also edited and translated an addition of the Trachula that 388 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: came out in two thousand one, and that includes an introduction, 389 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: the Latin text and an English translation, and then an 390 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: appendix that details all the medicines that are referenced in 391 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: the text. This is the first English translation of the 392 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: work that has used medieval texts as the starting point 393 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: rather than later versions. In the words of the Medieval 394 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: Review quote, this is the definitive Trochula, a new edition 395 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: of which will not be necessary. This book will be 396 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: useful to history of medicine of women's studies of medieval 397 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: culture and of southern Italy, and to graduate and even 398 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: undergraduate students interested in grappling with the actual practice of 399 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: medieval medicine. I really feel like that's the most glowing 400 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: review of any historical source I have read in seven 401 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: years of working on this podcast. Also, if all of 402 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: that talk about different versions seemed a little confusing, it's 403 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: enough of a tangle, but it's actually broken down in 404 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 1: Green's edition of The Trocolo with a chart. There are 405 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: so many different versions. So this last thing that we're 406 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: going to touch on has a lot going on. There 407 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: is a gruesome mass murder, suicide, possible incests, so we 408 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: have left it for last. If that is not folks bag. 409 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: If any of that sounds like you're just not down 410 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 1: for it, now is your time to say you have 411 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: learned about five things and go up um. In Germanton, 412 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: North Carolina, on Christmas Day nine twenty nine, a tobacco 413 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,479 Speaker 1: farmer named Charlie Lawson killed his wife and six of 414 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: their seven children. The seventh child, His oldest son, Arthur, 415 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 1: had left home on an errand, and he was the 416 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: only member of the family to survive. Sometime after killing 417 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: the rest of his family, But before Arthur had gotten back, 418 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: Charlie Lawson took his own life in the woods outside 419 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: their home, and by that point other people had already 420 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: stopped by the house to wish the family married Christmas, 421 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: and they had discovered the crime. They actually heard Lawson's 422 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: final shot in the distance while they were there. The 423 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: crime scene itself was bizarre, with the exception of the 424 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: youngest children. Lawson had shot and then bludgeoned each member 425 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: of the family. The youngest three, including the baby, he 426 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: bludgeoned to death, and then he had arranged their bodies. 427 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: For his wife and the children that Lawson killed inside 428 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: the house, he put their heads on pillows from their beds, 429 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: folded their arms over their chests, and closed their eyes. 430 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: For the two daughters that he killed while they were 431 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: outside near the tobacco barn, he arranged their bodies but 432 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: used rocks in place of pillows. When Charlie Lawson's body 433 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: was found, there were two notes in a pocket written 434 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: on receipts, neither of which contained a complete sentence. After 435 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: all of this, Lawson's brother Marion turned the home into 436 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: kind of a tourist attraction, which sounds a little callous, 437 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 1: but huge crowds were flocking to the crime scene anyway. 438 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 1: They were doing things like picking the raisins off the 439 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: cake that the oldest daughter, Marie, had made that day 440 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: for their Christmas treat, So Marian Lawson was basically trying 441 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: to keep things under some kind of control and also 442 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: provide an income for Arthur Lawson so that he didn't 443 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: lose the family farm. The crime also became the subject 444 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: of a murder ballad called Murder of the Lawson Family. So, 445 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: of course there are questions that are natural. Why did 446 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: Lawson murder his family? Why did he so carefully arrange 447 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,479 Speaker 1: their bodies? Why did he wait until his son, Arthur 448 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: was away from home to carry out this crime. Was 449 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: it just because Arthur and the friend he was with 450 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: that day were big enough to try to stop him, 451 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: or did Charlie have some other reason that he wanted 452 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: his son to survive? And why had the whole family 453 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: gone into Winston Salem a couple of weeks before that 454 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: to buy all new store bought clothes and have their 455 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 1: portrait taken. That would have been a huge and unusual 456 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: expense for a poor farming family at the start of 457 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: the Great depression, so we don't really have answers to 458 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: any of that, but there is a lot of speculation. 459 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: One is that Charlie Lawson wasn't actually the culprit, that 460 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: he had witnessed some other crime, and that perpetrator had 461 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: then killed them all in retaliation. Another theory blames a 462 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: head injury that Charlie Lawson had experienced some time before, 463 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: which reportedly caused severe headaches and changes to his behavior. 464 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: And the last theory was first publicized in the book 465 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: about this that is White Christmas, Bloody Christmas, written by M. 466 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: Bruce Jones and True D. J. Smiths. In nine just 467 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: before the book was going to print, Stella Lawson Bowles, 468 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: Marian Lawson's daughter, contacted the authors and told them that 469 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: she had heard rumors that seventeen year old Marie was 470 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: pregnant at the time of the murders and that the 471 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: baby was her father's. So in terms of this book, M. 472 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: Bruce Jones and Trudy J. Smith were father and daughter. 473 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: Jones had a lifelong fascination with this crime. He was 474 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: a child living in the area when it happened, and 475 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 1: he had compiled a wealth of research over his lifetime. 476 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: The two of them collaborated on the book, which they 477 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: self published in nine It is really hard to find now, 478 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: although there's a twenty five anniversary hardcover that came out 479 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: in Smith also published a follow up called The Meaning 480 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: of Our Tears, which is available as an e book. 481 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: The Meaning of Our Tears isn't focused only on this 482 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: crime and it's aftermath um. It's also focused on the 483 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: years of hardship and grief that this family had lived 484 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: through in the years before the murders. It's like halfway 485 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: into the book when the murders actually happened. This particular 486 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: instance is also an example of how other podcasts with 487 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: different styles and resources can approach material that probably wouldn't 488 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: work as well for us. These murders are, for example, 489 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: covered in an episode of the podcast Criminal, hosted by 490 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: Phoebe Judge, and the Criminal team goes on the road 491 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: and interviews people who have some kind of connection to 492 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: a crime, whether they're the perpetrators, the victims, or the investigators, 493 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: and they describe it as quote stories of people who 494 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: have done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in 495 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: the middle. So in this case, they actually went to 496 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: Stokes County, North Carolina, and they talked directly to local 497 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: residents and to Trudy Smith. They weren't talking to people 498 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: who knew Charlie Lawson or his victims personally, but to 499 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: people who have some kind of connection to this story. 500 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: All of this comes together in Criminal episode number twenty five, 501 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: which is called The Portrait. There is also a limited 502 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: series podcast from w g HP Fox eight in high Point, 503 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: North Carolina that tells the story, including archival interviews with 504 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: relatives and others with more firsthand knowledge, that is called 505 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: Deadly Secrets, The Laws and Family Murder. In both cases, 506 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: they went out and did legwork and talked directly to people, 507 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: where we would be just summarizing someone else's book. Yes, 508 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: since our show is not a show where we go 509 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: out and do field work. UM, something like that is 510 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: just not really accessible when everything is speculative. As awesome 511 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: as it would be to go out and do field work, 512 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: it is not something that's conducive to a show that 513 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: puts out two new episodes a week every week. It 514 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: takes more time than is is existing for our episodes. 515 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: So yeah, that is six things, five of which we've 516 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: gotten lots of our us for uh, where a book 517 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: is just the number one place to go to learn 518 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: more about that. Do you have listener mail, Tracy? I 519 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: knew it is from Katie, and Katie says, Hello, Holly 520 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: and Tracy. I'm one of those wacky people who listened 521 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: to the whole archive from the beginning, and I'm finally 522 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: caught up on the latest podcast. I'm almost sad that 523 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: I don't have a ton of new episodes waiting for 524 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: me to jump into. I wanted to thank you for 525 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: making such a great podcast. I so admire your commitment 526 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: to kindness and justice and how will you research each subject? 527 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: I've learned so much from you guys, and laughed and 528 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: grab my teeth the log with you and all the 529 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: things we've covered. I have a question and then a 530 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: podcast recommendation and some possible pandemic reading. The question is 531 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: who is the person on the cover art? Is it 532 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: a historical painting or drawing or done by someone connected 533 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: to stuff you miss the history class. I've been wondering 534 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: this for months. I feel so happy when I see 535 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: this French question mark face pop up on my phone. 536 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: Um my podcast recommendation for your extremely long recommendations list 537 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: is Thomas Downing Um, I'm gonna go right Thomas Downing 538 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: on the list, which is very long. Uh, and so 539 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to skip ahead to the synopsis of some 540 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: Thomas Downing stuff. And then Katie goes on to say, 541 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: this is a throwback, but when you talked about Lolli 542 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: Bellah in the history of Ethiopian Christianity, I remembered a 543 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: history rabbit hole I fell down a while back. The 544 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: Sign and the Seal is a very interesting, if slightly 545 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: wild book on the ark of the Covenant and the 546 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: Ethiopian tradition of it traveling to Lake Tana. It's by 547 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: Graham Hancock, who eventually went completely off the rails, but 548 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: during this time I think he was doing some pretty interesting, 549 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: if slightly dubious work. To be clear, I don't mean 550 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: that the tradition itself is dubious. I'm in no position 551 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: to judge another culture, but it definitely has been incorporated 552 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: into some wild Holy Grail type stuff. I read it 553 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: several years ago, so I can't remember many details beyond 554 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: it being a fascinating ride. If you're looking for some 555 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: pandemic reading about important traditions conducted by a pretty eccentric 556 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: and passionate white guy from out side the culture. I 557 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: definitely recommend it. Thank you again, Holly and Tracy for 558 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: all your great work, even when the podcast topics are difficult. 559 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: I feel a level of comfort when I listened to 560 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: you because of the respect, compassion, and intellect you bring. 561 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: And then we can talk about cheese or something else 562 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: delightful before you too long, Sincerely, Katie UM. I snagged 563 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: this one in part because of the reference to Alabella 564 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: and Ethiopian Christianity, which came up again on today's episode. UM. 565 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: I have never read our possibly even heard of the 566 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: book that Katie has mentioned, so I cannot speak to 567 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: um its quality or anything like that, but I found 568 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: the connection interesting. And to answer the question, who is 569 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: a person on the cover art, it's Marie Antoinette as 570 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: drawn from like a cameo jewelry piece that uh, somebody 571 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: who worked with our show many years ago put together 572 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: for us, almost a correct guest with French yes, technically Austria, right. Um. Yeah. 573 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: We were trying to come up with a new logo 574 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 1: at that time, and we wanted something that suggested history 575 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: and suggested, uh, some of the things that we talked 576 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: about on the show like, for example, including women, but 577 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: we also wanted one that didn't feel like we were 578 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 1: appropriating something just for the sake of making a podcast logo, 579 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: and Marie Antoinette seemed to fit that bill. Plus, as 580 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: we've talked about, I think we both enjoy reading, slash 581 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: learning and talking about various things related to Marie Antoinette. 582 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: So thank you again, Katie for that email. If you'd 583 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: like to write to us about this anither podcast, we're 584 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: at History Podcast at i heart radio dot com, and 585 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: we're all over social media at Missed in History. You 586 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: can also subscribe to our show on Apple podcast and 587 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, and anywhere else you like 588 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: to get podcasts. M Stuff You Missed in History Class 589 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts 590 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 591 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 592 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: H