WEBVTT - How Gossip Works 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:04.280 Welcome to stuff you should know from house stuff Works 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:12.600 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:15.720 Clark and there's Charles w Chuck Bryant and uh, it's 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:19.280 just two of us again. Man, not getting any easier. 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:23.640 This is just it's getting old this man. We need 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:27.400 Jerry back. Where are you, Jerry? Where did you go? Selfish? 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.280 Jerry wants to be at home with her baby. Yeah, 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.479 we all went to shopping at kmart and she wandered 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:35.400 off and we haven't seen her since. We all want 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:37.720 to be at home with Jerry's baby. Sure, it's a 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.680 cute baby, but we can't be you know, the old 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.160 joke that Jerry could be replaced with a those dipping 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:48.920 birds just to hit record. We were just kidding. It's 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:53.680 that's happening. It is true. Maybe not the post production stuff, 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:58.960 but definitely the recording thing. Clearly takes a finger to say, Okay, 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.520 you guys are rolling. Yeah, we cannot stop griping about 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:04.840 this time. I know it's just weird. You know, when 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.920 the threesome becomes to do, some things get awkward. I try, 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.840 it becomes a diade, or when it toosome, becomes a 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.479 threesome that gets super awkward or I mean really, anytime 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:18.000 you're moving people in and out of some sort of dynamics, 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:20.760 it can be weird. The transition be rough. I think 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:24.360 it's the that's what you put on the T shirt ultimately, alright, 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:28.160 the transition is rough anytime you're moving people in and 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.080 out of a dynamic. Ready, yes, didn't know me say 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:34.160 that already. Yeah, we're recording, Chuck, I have something for you, right. 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.440 I am not much of a gossip at all. I 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.120 just don't do it. But do you know who does? 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:48.240 Jerry a lot, and she's really vicious. I know it's 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:50.920 just not here right now, but just between the two 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:55.000 of us, I don't gossip. Jerry does, and you should 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:58.680 really watch out for. I heard that she gossips. I'm 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.880 not saying that, but I just heard that. I got you. Well, 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:04.160 I've seen her do it. She's gossip to me because 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:06.600 she finds me very important and like to confide to me. 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:11.119 But it's just so vicious. So we just gossiped. We did. 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:13.840 That was play acting, though. The ironic thing was that 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:17.800 I was gossiping about how I don't gossip. That that 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:21.720 came through. Huh, everybody gossips. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:26.120 apparently people gossip way more than they realize. But I 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.680 think you're I think gossip is a normal thing. It 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:32.840 has such a bad connotation though that people say like, 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:35.920 I don't gossip, I'm not a gossip but liars. Technically 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.480 not necessarily even liars. I think it also as far 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:42.320 as like linguists and psychologists are concerned, it comes from 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:46.359 a misunderstanding of what gossip, what constitutes gossip. Like at 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:51.760 its basic, barest, bare bottomed element, gossip is simply too 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:54.600 or it can be more but a couple of people 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:59.200 speaking about a third person's business while the third person 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:02.600 isn't there. There's another person who's being talked about, boy 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.760 isn't there. It doesn't necessarily mean you're talking about how 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:10.840 they're just just what allows you parents. They are sure 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.400 spending baby shoe money on gambling rather than gambling in 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:17.760 order to get more shoes. That's bad parenting right there. 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:19.680 There's all sorts of stuff you can say, but you 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:24.239 could also say, actually, that guy is a great dude. 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.880 He spends all of his money on nothing but baby shoes. 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.880 That's gossip. It is gossip and it's not necessarily harmful. 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:34.880 It's in this case you're you're helping someone else's social 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:39.360 status in other people's eyes. That's still gossip. Yeah, I think, Um, 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:43.280 what's this tracy of stuff you missed in history class? 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:47.400 Wrote this one? That is true? She's always thorough and 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:50.240 uh she included in here something I thought was pretty pertinent, 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:57.200 gossip the rumor. Yeah. Uh, and there are differences, And um, well, 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.120 I say there's differences. But if you ask professional als 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.320 who study this, and there are weirdos who do that, um, 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.200 they will say sometimes now it's the same thing. Or 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:10.040 a rumor is just a type of gossip. Uh, here's 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.520 some other distinguishing factors. Gossip is based in fact rumors 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:17.080 are based in hypotheses. Um. I don't know about that one. 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:19.320 That makes sense to me because it kind of ties 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.240 in with the last one. Yeah, gossip is a tool 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.760 for maintaining social order, which we're gonna talk about at length. 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:28.840 Rumor is a tool for explaining things that people do 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:32.240 not understand. I'm not sure I get that one. Like 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:36.960 there's garbage raining from the sky, it's the government, that's okay. 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.520 Whereas if you're like Charles is up on the roof again, 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:44.520 dumping his garbage out on the street. That's gossip technically, 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:47.239 so yeah, or that's just laying it out there. Yeah 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.320 yeah true. Uh. And then finally, gossip or late something 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.640 people believe has happened, but rumor expresses something people hope 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:56.680 or fear will happen. So I have my own hypothesis 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:00.760 of the distinction between rumor and gossip. It's here, Uh, 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:06.320 rumor is uncurated, gossip rumors any dude walking down the street. 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:08.680 You can be like, there's garbage following from the guy, 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.640 and it's the government. There's no bond that's formed there, 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:15.440 there's no requirement of a bond, whereas gossip requires some 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:19.600 sort of connection or you're forming a connection from the gossip, 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:21.720 you know what I'm saying, Or is just for anybody. 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:26.080 Gossip is between confidence to an extent. Yeah, And Tracy 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:29.080 points that out too, And that is why supposedly celebrity 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:33.560 gossip isn't qualified, doesn't qualify as gossip because it's a 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.800 third party that doesn't know the others in general, unless 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:42.000 it's you know, Jenniferranison is talking smack about she would 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:44.760 never do that. Oh really, no, she loves Courtney Cock, 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.200 there's still friends. Huh. Sure, why doesn't she ever have 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:51.200 around Cougar Town? Then I think she was on cougar Town. Well, 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:53.280 I stayed corrected, although I have no idea because I've 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:55.159 never seen cougar that. Did you hear about what happened 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.680 after he's on Cougar Town? I heard she washed her 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:02.120 hair and Evy and her best Shannon Dherty? Yeah, that's right. 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.760 Is that a rumor? Gossip? I don't know. We don't 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.279 know Shannon Dherty. Uh. And then there are some other 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:13.120 stipulations that researchers point out for a gossip that I 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.560 also take issue with. Some of these, Um, the conversation 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.720 takes place in private, usually the case. Yeah, if not 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.120 like actual private depends on what private mean. You you 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:25.240 everybody's got the shoulders turn. There's like a creation of 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:29.400 a private situation. Yeah, I got you. Uh. People are 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:31.560 saying it as if it were fact, even though it's 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:35.599 not confirmed. That's definitely true. Yeah, but that's not necessarily 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:37.400 the case. That's I take issue with that one. It's 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:39.560 kind of like you were saying, like I heard, but 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:41.680 I haven't checked it out to take it with a 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:48.800 grain of salt. But get this. Yeah, man, uh people, Yeah, 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:50.680 we already talked about that knowing each other. And then 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:54.479 the body language and tone, uh suggests a moral judgment. 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.840 That's a big one, you know, like when people use 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:02.039 this tone. But again, that's malicious gossip. Typically there's such 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:03.800 a thing. So this is it should be said, And 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:06.200 Tracy doesn't really say it in this Um I think 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:09.200 she was drinking while she was writing this one. That's 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:12.760 what I heard. Um, she didn't lay out that. There's 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:15.800 really two types of gossip. One is malicious gossip. That's 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.480 the type of gossip people think about when they hear 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.960 the word gossip. But the other type, the far more 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:27.400 apparently far more prevalent type, is um regular gossip. Yeah, 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:33.080 there's some weird, unsubstantiated stat here that only that five 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:37.440 was malicious. Yeah, among most gossip. Yeah, how in the 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:39.920 world did they pull that out of their key stirt 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:48.040 Here's that's a great question. So they are linguists, historians, uh, anthropologists, psychologists, 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.920 people who started studying gossip for a very long time. 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.120 Everyone is aware of gossip, but they're like, it's just noise. 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.360 It's not to be studied, it's to be ignored and 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:59.600 As a matter of fact, there's this really great article 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.680 in The Lantic that talked about gossip and how it 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:06.040 was viewed um and specifically there's this thing in sixteenth 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:09.560 and seventeenth century England didn't like it called scolds bridle, 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.120 And if you want to see what a scolds bridle is, 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:15.480 you should check that out online because there are actual 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:20.520 such things. But they're basically iron masks with like points 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:24.240 sticking into the The woman who was accused of gossip's 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:26.960 mouth usually a woman, and she would just have to 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.360 wear that and be publicly humiliated. A lot of them 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.080 had like a leash leading from them. So I guess 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.719 the gossip or the scold is what they used to call, 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:37.800 could be paraded around town, right, Yeah, and also get 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:41.400 the feeling that a lot of women were probably made 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.160 to wear those who just talked too much. Yeah, I 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.680 would I have the same the same impression because of 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:51.079 the time period of so that's how people typically viewed gossip. 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.280 It was something to be stamped out. It was something 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:58.240 that was um very undesirable, and academia treated it the 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.080 same way. In World War two came around, and I 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:05.080 think the government saw that there was some real harm 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:09.000 that could be done with gossip, with rumors, and they 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:11.199 wanted to start to understand that. So that kind of 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:15.320 led to the basis of academia investigating what gossip was, 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:19.960 what rumors are, and then um over time organizations got 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.680 in on the act because there came this idea that 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.720 if the rumor mill or the gossip mill in your 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:29.400 office was really going over time, you needed to stamp 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:33.800 that out. True. They've found the opposite is actually true. Yeah, 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:35.640 they found it can do a lot in a workplace 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:39.080 to keep people in line, uh, either by scaring them 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.640 in line or what it What it seems like a 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:43.599 lot of gossip does in that kind of environment is 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:47.720 it establishes like the norms and the culture is expected 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:50.959 out of the bosses. That's like one low level that's 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:54.080 like low level background gossip. If it's peaking and really 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:58.120 working over time, you from what I understand, you're not 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:01.240 supposed to attack the gossips. What you're supposed to do 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:04.040 is be more transparent at the top and then people 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.920 don't have reason to gossip. So it's not it doesn't 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:08.800 mean that you have a lot of gossips at your place. 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:11.600 That's a normal human situation. As we'll see, it means 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:13.800 that your managers and the people who are running the 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:18.320 show aren't being open enough for the the hoi polois tastes, right, 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:20.560 see what I mean. Good point, and that was a 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:22.760 big thing that came out of studying it. But to 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:26.200 answer your question I'm about to finish, they study it 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:30.120 by eavesdropping on like people who are talking in cafeterias. 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:32.640 That's about the only way you can yeah, because it's 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:36.640 so spontaneous and it's largely unconscious. Yeah, unless it's you know, 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:40.000 just some dumb pole where you're asking people about gossip 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:43.000 and self reporting poles like that, I don't put a 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.559 lot of stuck in you know. Well, actually they're funny 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:48.319 to look at. There's one that found that about we 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.679 spend about three quarters of our time gossiping apparently. Yeah, 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:56.320 and that's in the broadest sense of the definition, right, 0:10:56.480 --> 0:11:00.360 not necessarily malicious, because about five percent of that supposedly lishes. 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:04.120 But people self report gossiping about they say they spend 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.760 about thirty percent of their time. So rather than people 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:11.600 are like, oh, only gossip yea. And all that comes 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.400 from eavesdropping on people and then asking them afterwards whether 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:18.040 they gossip. Tracy points out rightfully so that most world 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:22.160 religions have always said gossip is a bad thing, including 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:26.560 the Christian Bible. Uh in Leviticus, thou shalt not go 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.920 up and down as a talebearer among the people. Oh, 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:33.760 that was good. By the way, I wanna echo the 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:39.440 kudos that have wrung throughout social media applauding your scary 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:44.120 spider growing redneck man in the Halloween episode. It was 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:46.240 clear as a slack jowled yokel sort of. And my 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:48.680 friend Big John, well, it was good. It was a matchup. 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:51.400 I appreciate that it was Big John in New York. No, 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:55.000 he's in he's in Atlanta. Okay. Um. I actually thought 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.079 your your vomit take was the funniest part of the 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:03.960 whole thing, the gag, thank you, thank you. Uh. Jewish 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.200 tour always also says so in Buddhism. We've talked about 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.640 Buddhism before the eight full Path to Enlightenment. No place 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:14.160 where gossip there, my friend, no way, not if you 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:18.719 want to become one with the universe, no gossiping. And 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:21.320 like like I said earlier too, it's not just the 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:25.320 religious types that are against it. People and remember the 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:27.920 business world kind of started looking in on this, and 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:29.679 they're like, don't gossip if you want to be a 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.680 good person, don't gossip and spreading U unless you're spreading 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.720 a gossip rumor that we want you to spread. Right, 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:41.160 that's the official company line. Uh. And then there's this dude, 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:45.360 Robin Dunbar, who wrote a book called Grooming, Gossip and 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:48.360 the Evolution of Language, And I looked into this guy. 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:52.720 He he really goes for it. He says that gossip 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:56.520 is the whole reason that we have language, and it 0:12:56.640 --> 0:13:00.840 evolved from primates grooming each other and that took so 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.760 much time to groom one another and it wasn't efficient. 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:08.240 That language was created in order to not have to 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.200 groom one another, and so you would vocal groom, that's 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:13.200 what he called it. So this is kind of a 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:15.199 big deal. Let's let's take a break for a second 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.280 because we're pretty deep into this, and we'll talk about 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:39.920 Dunbar and his mad ideas after this, all right, Dunbar, 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:44.120 Dunbar can't put them off any longer. Robin Dunbar, Yeah, 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.040 that's a pretty out there theory. I think like Dunbar 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:50.920 is saying we developed language so we could gossip in 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.160 in essence, Yeah, the tide of grooming is where he 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:56.560 loses me a bit and vocal grooming. I'm just he 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:00.959 says basically, it was a more efficient way to uh 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:05.520 service your allies rather than grooming one another. Right, So, 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.679 I think what he's saying is that when you win 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:13.680 a primate grooms another primate, it's an act of um kindness. 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.960 It's saying, like, I'm doing something nice for you. It 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.840 gives the other primate who's being groomed an opportunity to 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.200 reciprocate and form an even stronger bond. Right, scratch my back. 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:25.320 But it takes a little while to do all this 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:27.960 stuff because you're actually going through the act of grooming, 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:32.160 whereas if you just gossip about somebody, um, you can 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.840 do a lot of that same stuff, but just by talking. Yeah, 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:38.080 but I don't get what it has to do with 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:41.560 picking knits out of fur. It's it's I think what 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:45.240 he's saying is it's it developed out of that. It 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.600 serves a lot of the same purposes. Plus also, it's 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:54.040 entirely possible that gossip began around the time or I 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.520 guess during grooming sessions think about it if you're just 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:58.560 sitting there picking knits out of somebody, or you're just 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:02.920 gonna sit there silently not at start chatting. How how 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.000 easy is it going to be to lead to talk talk? 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.760 And what he did after he ate that for minute? Apple, Sure, 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:13.080 it's like the barbershop or the beauty shop, right kind of. Um. 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.360 There are some different roles though that it does play 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.680 in social interactions where I guess the grooming thing comes 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:22.320 into play. UM. Entertaining one another, like you said, uh, 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:26.400 influence on one another, that's a big one. UM, Exchanging 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.960 information that's important, uh, And one of the biggest ones 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:35.520 is learning from mistakes that UH linguists point out is 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.920 a really big part of gossip or a part of 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:44.160 positive gossip, and that there's oftentimes a moral lesson attached 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.240 to it. Yeah, like you don't want this to happen 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.400 to you, right, No, exactly, and it kind of um 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.720 in that respect, it gets across somebody who's perhaps a 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:55.800 little more established in a group, maybe an older person 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.000 like ingratiate yourself, right, But but it's also saying like 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.000 I'm a part of this group. You're a little newer 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.080 than I am. Let me tell you the story about 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:05.680 what this guy did when he transgressed against the group 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.880 and bad things befell him. Like you said, don't let 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:14.080 this happen to you. Don't transgress the group's boundaries, right, 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:16.680 And that's important if you get if you're like a 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.520 new hire, they say, a lot of gossip flies. Uh, 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.840 Like I remember the movie Big Remember when Tom Hanks 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.880 gets hired, Like the very first thing that happens is 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.120 John Lovitts comes over and starts talking about all the 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.760 gossip of everyone in the office. I don't remember that part. 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:34.840 Oh yeah, he talks about like this lady is easy 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.720 and this guy's a jerk, and it's just pretty common. 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:39.200 I think when you get a new job, there's always 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:41.440 someone in there that's like And what they're doing, though, 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:46.760 is they're not just it's not purely they're trying to 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.560 help themselves. It's socialization. It's in dr nature. Oh that's 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:52.120 not what I thought you were gonna say. No, Like, 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:53.960 I think they're trying to be like, well, here's a 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:56.520 new ally I can get, right, Yeah, so let me 0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:01.160 let me you know. I mean, it's it's there. It's reciprocal, 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.520 I guess to a certain degree. Yeah, both people are 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:05.320 getting something out of it. But I mean you make 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.199 a good point. The person who is doing the gossiping, 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.159 especially in that situation, is setting themselves up as a 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:18.879 like a wise older savior advisor. If you want some information, 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:21.760 Well you'll find though over the years is that usually 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:23.879 the first person who comes up and starts gossiping to 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.000 you about how the office works is usually also the 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:32.080 most disliked. You know. That's why they cast John Lovett. 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:34.520 He's great for that. That or the dude with the 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:38.040 forehead the size of a dinner plate who was in 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:40.840 all the eighties movies as that character? Was he the 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:46.880 jerkin big I don't know. Is the dad from Home Alone? No? No, no, 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:51.560 this is um the coked up sidekick from the eighties 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.199 with the huge forehead. He was in What About You? 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.200 He was the sidekicking mad about you. Oh that guy? 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.720 Yeah yeah yeah yeah, same same function. Yeah he's uh 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:06.520 he's in that show now ah with Joey Tribbiani. It's 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:12.200 called Joey, Melissa and Joey. No, he's on the Yeah, yeah, 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:15.760 he's on episodes took great. Does he play himself? Uh? Now? 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:21.320 He plays a jerk? Um uh TV executive perfect. He's exactly. 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:23.720 I love that guy that he's such a good actor. No, 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:25.520 that's what I'm saying. But he always plays that part. 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.000 He's definitely he's got that part down. You're right, he's 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:31.520 not a romantic lead. Um. A lot of times. The 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:35.199 feeling of superiority is another big part of gossip, like 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:39.080 I would never do this, um. And Tracy also points 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:42.040 out the old schaden freude, which is one of my 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:44.119 favorite words. It's a good word and one of my 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:48.240 least favorite things. That's you must be very ambivalent about 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.760 that word. What do you mean? Well, if you love 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.040 it but you also hate what it means, well, let's 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.400 got to tear you up inside. Well, I just don't 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:58.080 like someone delighting in someone else's misfortune unless it's a 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.760 bad person. Yeah. Could the Jimmy john S guy like 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.200 shot his toe off on a big game hunt, Well, 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:06.920 oh yeah, he's a big game hunter. I would probably 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:10.080 think that was kind of you know, I think that's 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:13.240 acceptable shot in Florida, especially if it was just a 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:18.840 relatively minor injury. You know. Yeah, you say shaden shod 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.480 and frauda, That's how I say it. So, Chuck, kind 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:24.960 of what a couple of like we've were kind of 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:29.119 dancing back and forth across this line, like going to 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.960 the office setting up the first day and having somebody 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.240 come over and tell you how the things work. Yes, 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:36.400 there might be a little bit of malicious gossip in there, 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:38.880 but for the most part, that's not bad gossip. That's 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:43.200 neutral gossip, right, But putting someone else down or talking 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:47.840 about how how much superior you are by not you 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.600 would never do what they did, that's definitely the malicious variety. 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:56.960 And there's an idea that if gossip evolved, like um, 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:03.399 Robin Leech. Yeah, like, like Robin Leach says in his 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:08.439 post Rich and Famous Career he became an anthropologist, you know, 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:14.400 Um Robin Leach says that if if language evolved as 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:19.719 a means of gossiping, the guy takes it further by saying, Um, 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:22.639 the reason gossip of all, the reason we needed that 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:24.919 in the first place was because we grew out of 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.479 these little hunter gatherer bands of like fifteen people, and 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:31.600 as our societies grew larger and larger, and we weren't 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:34.600 as able to be able to keep tabs personally on 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:37.520 others in this group that's getting bigger and bigger, so 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:39.560 you don't know who to trust. You know, if I'm 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:41.480 gonna leave my crops to somebody while I go on 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:43.680 a walk about or something, I need to make sure 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:45.200 that all my crops are gonna be there when I 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:47.800 get back, you know, But I don't really know this guy. 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.440 Gossiping serves that function. It's it's like a stand in 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:53.680 for being able to keep tabs on everybody else in 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:57.120 the society, because when you gossip with somebody, you're sharing 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:00.359 a trust, a bond that they're not going to use 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:04.040 that information against you that you shared with them, and um, 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:06.640 so there's a there's a definite element of trust to it. 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:12.520 And when when people gossip in a larger society, they're 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:15.560 they're trusting that the person is either vouching for the 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:19.159 person or they're being warned against trusting that third party. Right, 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:21.040 So it works in that same way that it's like 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:24.360 a it's a means of um keeping tabs on everybody 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:27.680 at the same time. On the other hand, or at 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.080 the same time, it's also um a means of social 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:35.200 control because if you know people are gossiping about everybody else, 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.720 then surely they're gonna gossip about you too, which means 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:42.520 you better just be an upstanding, upright person. Yeah, there 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:47.400 was this uh this what's his first name, Fineberg, let's 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:51.359 just say Dr Fineberg. Dr Fineberg at Toronto in Toronto, 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:54.160 University of Toronto. He's done some studies and he did 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:58.920 find in fact that basically they did these studies where 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:02.679 they were um, were you were allowed to exclude non 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:07.080 cooperators in like a group work setting. And they found 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:09.119 that you you set them out for one game, like 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:11.560 you've not been playing nicely, so you go sit over 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:13.680 there in the corner, and when they came back, they 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:16.840 were more likely to behave in other rounds. And uh, 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:19.960 if they knew that their behavior was gossiped about people, 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:22.680 sort of like what you're talking about with the staring, 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:25.920 Like if you knew someone was watching you, you would 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:28.479 return the grocery cart. If you know, if you know 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:31.880 someone's gossiping about you, you're gonna tow that line and 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:34.920 get your act together exactly. It's again it's a means 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:37.960 of social control. You know. Who were really really really 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:43.280 good at gossiping. Uh, the Puritans in colonial America, they 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:46.679 were huge, like their whole society operated on gossip and 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:49.240 the encouragement of gossip. As a matter of fact, I 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:53.080 think women were called gossips um and not necessarily negatively. 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:56.240 It's just like there was a really good means of 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.480 social control. Not only was God watching you, your neighbors 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:01.479 were too, and they would go tell the preacher, who 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:04.440 would put a scolds bridle on you, and maybe them 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:07.480 too for telling and toss you in the lake. Yeah. 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:10.200