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Speaker 2: Its very difficult to keep the line between the past.

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Speaker 3: And the press. You believe that someone out of the

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Speaker 3: past can.

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Speaker 2: Enter and take possession of a living be We.

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Speaker 4: May be through with the past, but the past is

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Speaker 4: not through with us.

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Speaker 5: Welcome back to the Next Picture Show, a movie of

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Speaker 5: the Week podcast devoted to a classic film and the

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Speaker 5: way its shaped our thoughts on a recent release. I'm

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Speaker 5: Tasha Robinson here again.

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Speaker 2: With Keith Hips, Scott Tobias.

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Speaker 6: And Genevieve Koski.

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Speaker 5: In our last episode, we discussed Oh Brother, Where Art

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Speaker 5: thou Joel Nathan Cohen's riff on Homer's epic poem The Odyssey.

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Speaker 5: In their version, a fast talking reprobate and his two

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Speaker 5: companions try to make their way home across the American

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Speaker 5: South in nineteen thirty seven, pursued by a dogged sheriff

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Speaker 5: and encountering colorful characters who might be just a little

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Speaker 5: mystical but are more likely a whole lot of Kohenesque

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Speaker 5: flim flammers and opportunists. Christopher Nolans The Odyssey comes at

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Speaker 5: Homer's epic from a much more literal vantage point. It

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Speaker 5: includes Homer's gods and monsters, along with overt magic in

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Speaker 5: its mayhem. As the king of Ithaca, Odysseus played by

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Speaker 5: Matt Damon, spends long years trying to make his way

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Speaker 5: home from the Trojan War after angering the god Poseidon.

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Speaker 5: It's a series of battles and fraught encounters, including a

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Speaker 5: grueling trip to Hell to speak with an oracle who

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Speaker 5: the o brother Boys get to speak with for free

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Speaker 5: in the early moments of their movie. And even once

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Speaker 5: Odysseus does get home, he has to deal with the

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Speaker 5: mob of powerful, conniving suitors who are demanding to marry

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Speaker 5: his wife, Penelope played by Anne Hathaway, and push odysseus

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Speaker 5: son Telemachus played by Tom Holland out of line for

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Speaker 5: the throne. Stay with us, Tell.

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Speaker 3: Me what you remember A wife, A son? No, No,

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Speaker 3: we wanted more. Help me go home. This is a

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Speaker 3: household waiting for master. I want you to choose me.

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Speaker 7: I think it's King is coming back.

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Speaker 3: No, he's not.

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Speaker 6: What would you do if he came back here to

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Speaker 6: find all these suitors in his house.

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Speaker 3: They're pineying your very daddy you didn't even know, like

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Speaker 3: some sniffling bastard who looking after your wife and son?

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Speaker 2: Do you see?

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Speaker 3: My dad is coming home? Rand Cuts bringing it all.

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Speaker 5: So the odyssey. I was joking just before we started recording,

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Speaker 5: I wish there was something to talk about with this movie.

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Speaker 5: I don't even know where to start. I guess, just baseline,

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Speaker 5: what did you think?

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Speaker 7: I came in this film with pretty high expectations and

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Speaker 7: I can safely say that succeeded all of them, you know,

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Speaker 7: as a spectacle. It certainly something I'll be thinking out

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Speaker 7: for a long time. But just thematically and dramatically, the

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Speaker 7: way it explores its themes via these really well realized characters.

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Speaker 7: I don't know. I think I was pretty much blown

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Speaker 7: away by it. I'm I walked away a huge fan.

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Speaker 6: Yeah you're not alone. I really loved this film, and

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Speaker 6: I am not a dieharden Olan fan. A lot of

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Speaker 6: times his films leave me kind of cold and this

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Speaker 6: definitely did not. This gave me kind of everything I

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Speaker 6: was wanting out of Oppenheimer, which, sorry, guys, I actually

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Speaker 6: did not like Oppenheimer that much. I know, I know,

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Speaker 6: but because it just didn't connect with me emotionally the

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Speaker 6: way this did. Like the last third of this movie,

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Speaker 6: or just when Odysseus returns to Ithaca and the conversation

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Speaker 6: he has with Penelope where he sort of relives the

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Speaker 6: sack of Troy and you know, his role in it,

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Speaker 6: and sort of the ideas about civilization and humanity and

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Speaker 6: the kind of breakdown of the social order, it all

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Speaker 6: just hit me right in the gun. And it does

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Speaker 6: feel very like along the same lines of like what

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Speaker 6: Nolan had on his mind with Oppenheimer is there feels

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Speaker 6: like a very direct line from that film to this one.

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Speaker 6: But this one just hit me so much harder on

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Speaker 6: both a spectacle level and an emotional level. On a

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Speaker 6: performance level, I really loved Matt Damon here, which is like,

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Speaker 6: you know, is not I don't know that I've ever

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Speaker 6: said like I love Matt Damon because he's just like

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Speaker 6: kind of like a dependable He's Matt Damon. You know,

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Speaker 6: he does what he does, but he's like, but what

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Speaker 6: he does is so right here, and I just like

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Speaker 6: he carried this film in a way that I just

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Speaker 6: loved watching some incredible action set pieces. Again, the sack

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Speaker 6: of Troy, Like when we saw it happening the first time,

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Speaker 6: I was just on the edge of my seat the

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Speaker 6: whole time. There's a bunch of other sequences. I'm sure

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Speaker 6: we can get into, but I really don't have. You know,

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Speaker 6: at this point of a few hours afresh off of

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Speaker 6: seeing it, I don't have a lot of complaints about

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Speaker 6: this movie, except for the people next to me who

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Speaker 6: I had to shush when they were making great comments

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Speaker 6: about Elliott Page but.

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Speaker 2: No great casting too.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it was during that scene, like an amazing, amazing scene,

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Speaker 6: and they were just talking over it and misgendering him and.

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Speaker 5: In Tartarus or the first one in Tartarus. Yes, I mean,

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Speaker 5: it's not very often you get to see people in

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Speaker 5: person that have no souls and see what that looks like.

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Speaker 5: It's a rare privilege, I suppose. Yeah. I went in

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Speaker 5: with very temperate expectations because I also do not always

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Speaker 5: love Nolan. I think with a tenant in particular, that

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Speaker 5: kind of gets way too far into his own head

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Speaker 5: and ended up producing something that doesn't necessarily work either

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Speaker 5: as narrative or as an emotional story. And there are

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Speaker 5: other films of his that I like, fine, it's just

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Speaker 5: that they've been hailed as like acts of revelatory genius,

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Speaker 5: and I've never connected on that level. I mean, he

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Speaker 5: did do one of my favorite films of all time,

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Speaker 5: The Prestige, but I'm still on some level waiting for

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Speaker 5: another Prestige out of him. Came close for me. It

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Speaker 5: definitely helps that I went in again pretty tempered expectations,

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Speaker 5: not just because of the Nolan of it all, but

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Speaker 5: because the kind of the sinophile society's expectations seem to

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Speaker 5: be so through the roof over this. The anticipation has

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Speaker 5: been so high, and I didn't want to fall for

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Speaker 5: that hype. But this is a pretty complicated story. It's

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Speaker 5: once again Nolan playing around with time and linearity and

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Speaker 5: it can cause and effect and how you get the

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Speaker 5: story and in what order kind of I think brilliantly

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Speaker 5: starting with a point where a poet a performer is

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Speaker 5: like declaiming the story of how Odysseus came up with

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Speaker 5: the idea that ended the Trojan war that enabled the

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Speaker 5: sack of Troy, and that story has made it home

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Speaker 5: before he did, long long before he did in his

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Speaker 5: own halls in Ithaca. The poets are like telling the

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Speaker 5: tale of this magnificent hero, but the magnificent hero himself

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Speaker 5: is nowhere to be seen. Nobody knows what his fate is.

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Speaker 5: And that contrast I think between he's already passed into

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Speaker 5: legend and he might still be here among us, but

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Speaker 5: we don't know. I think is really interesting thematically and

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Speaker 5: just leads into a lot of different thematic things that

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Speaker 5: this movie is doing. I think it's beautiful as spectacle.

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Speaker 5: It's you know, heartwarming and heartbreaking, it's exciting, it's really

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Speaker 5: well performed. I enjoyed this movie a lot. I gotta say, well.

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Speaker 2: Not to be the web none. I can't be a

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Speaker 2: wet blanket here. I thought.

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Speaker 4: I thought I'd come in and just say what are

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Speaker 4: you people talking about? But that's not going to be

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Speaker 4: me either. I mean, you know, I'm a fan of

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Speaker 4: Nolan's and have been since Memento, which I saw, which

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Speaker 4: I saw at Toronto, and the year two thousand and Scott.

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Speaker 7: Reel had have to say, I've been a fan since

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Speaker 7: following I have been.

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Speaker 4: You think, not that many real heads out there, but

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Speaker 4: and so obviously my expectations were quite high, and I think,

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Speaker 4: I think that he keeps taking on projects of greater ambition.

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Speaker 4: It almost feels like a powerlifter adding reps, you know,

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, it's like it's like you go

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Speaker 4: from Dunkirk to Oppenheimer and now this, and it just

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Speaker 4: seems like each one is just more gargantuan and improbable

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Speaker 4: and achievement than the last. But he at this point

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Speaker 4: he can handle it with with you know, a dexterity

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Speaker 4: that is near impossible that you can't you can't even

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Speaker 4: think of too many contemporary filmmakers who could even try.

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Speaker 2: To do something like The Odyssey.

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Speaker 4: But I also think that it's a film of great

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Speaker 4: ideas and and weight and and real personality. I mean,

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Speaker 4: like this is a film you know that the time

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Speaker 4: theme is is obviously important to this movie, and it's

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Speaker 4: important to Nolan. You know, you have the connection, of

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Speaker 4: course to Oppenheimer in having this this hero who has

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Speaker 4: to make decisions on behalf of many people and and

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Speaker 4: have to has to live with the weight of those decisions,

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Speaker 4: has to live with mistakes or incorrect decisions that have

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Speaker 4: horrible losses, and so the weight of that really hits

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Speaker 4: you so hard in this movie. And time itself, of

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Speaker 4: course has a weight I think about like one of

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Speaker 4: my other favorite movies, intert of Nolan's Interstellar and and

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Speaker 4: and my favorite part of that movie is all of

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Speaker 4: the stuff on the planet in which time passes in

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Speaker 4: the real world or on Earth a long time. So

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Speaker 4: any minute you spend on this planet is going to

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Speaker 4: be very costly to a mission that is already full

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Speaker 4: of urgency because it's about, you know, saving the Earth,

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Speaker 4: and it's so heartbreaking and so wrenching for that reason.

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Speaker 4: And this movie has that feel to it of just like,

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Speaker 4: you know, the amount of time that it has passed,

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Speaker 4: how much has been lost, you know, the weight of

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Speaker 4: everything is just so immense in this film. And and uh,

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Speaker 4: and it's good to see, you know, a film of

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Speaker 4: the scale feel personal and feel very much like a

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Speaker 4: Christopher Nolan movie.

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Speaker 2: And in you know, something.

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Speaker 4: You can kind of talk about in relation to other

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Speaker 4: things that he's done, because I think the Odyssey as

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Speaker 4: a project, it almost seems too imposing for any you know,

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Speaker 4: personality to attach itself to it, and.

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Speaker 6: He goes beyond the Odyssey. He like being brings in

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Speaker 6: Iliad too, talk about adding reps.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, the Trojan Horse. And then, not to get too panatic,

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Speaker 7: the Trojan Horse actually isn't in the Iliad after the

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Speaker 7: timeline of the Iliad. But but the way that that

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Speaker 7: when I first heard the Trojan Horse is going to

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Speaker 7: be and I was like, well, they just throwing that

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Speaker 7: in because it's a crowd pleaser. Everyone loves the Trojan Horse.

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Speaker 7: But like the way it is used symbolically in this

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Speaker 7: film without I don't want to give too much away,

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Speaker 7: but just like the way, you know, from the first

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Speaker 7: from the first scene to the last, it's such an

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Speaker 7: important object and its meaning is so significant and changes

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Speaker 7: over the course of the of the film. You know,

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Speaker 7: I can't imagine, you know, this version of the Odyssey

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Speaker 7: at least without the Trojan Wars in it.

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Speaker 5: It's also just kind of an opportunity to, you know,

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Speaker 5: take a part of the legend that I think everybody

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Speaker 5: knows and give you a new perspective on it in

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Speaker 5: terms of addressing kind of the practicalities of what it

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Speaker 5: would be like to be in the Trojan Horse.

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Speaker 4: Well, let me ask you this, when you think about

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Speaker 4: the Trojan Horse. Every time we think about tuge horse

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Speaker 4: or I think it's got wheels on it, just pushing

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Speaker 4: it in there, you know what I mean. And I

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Speaker 4: think that, like I think the fact that this you know,

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Speaker 4: again I use the word weight. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 4: I mean just the profound labor of a dragon, this

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Speaker 4: damn thing you know from the beach behind the walls.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's you know, kind of is typical of

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Speaker 4: this movie, in which everything feels like it's heavy and

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Speaker 4: difficult and in a labor and something that takes a really,

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Speaker 4: really long time.

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Speaker 2: I love that symbolically for the movie.

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Speaker 5: Also, you know, just dealing with like how did they

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Speaker 5: go to the bathroom in the in the Trojan Horse.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's this is a movie about about blood

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Speaker 5: and sweat and mud and feces and.

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Speaker 2: Holding it in a movie about holding it in.

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Speaker 5: It's just it's it's a It's a movie that really

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Speaker 5: focuses on the physicality of being human and kind of

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Speaker 5: the terror of encountering things that are not human and

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Speaker 5: don't have that physicality, and just a lot of these

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Speaker 5: different set pieces. I'm particularly thinking about the sequence with

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Speaker 5: with Circe, there's an an emphasis on bodies. I think

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Speaker 5: that that takes this beyond sort of the usual exploration

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Speaker 5: of of myth. I also pictured the Trojan horse on wheels,

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Speaker 5: and I picture it as on all fours and thus

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Speaker 5: a shape that would be a lot easier for a

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Speaker 5: bunch of soldiers to pack into. Picture it made out

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Speaker 5: of wood rather than metal, so a lot of easier

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Speaker 5: to move around and picture it just you know, wheeled

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Speaker 5: up to the gates of Troy. That's sort of the

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Speaker 5: cartoony image you always see when people are portraying it is,

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Speaker 5: you know, we hey, we got you a horse. We're

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Speaker 5: going to wheel it up to the gates of the city,

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Speaker 5: say thank you for the war, and here's a present

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Speaker 5: for you, and then go away. As opposed to you know,

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Speaker 5: where they find it, how they find it, what they

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Speaker 5: do with it. It's all just like a fascinating take. And

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Speaker 5: I guess what it comes down to is this is

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Speaker 5: a movie full of decisions. You know, this is a

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Speaker 5: movie that is not drawing easily or comfortably on other

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Speaker 5: people's like ideas of what this myth are, and kind

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Speaker 5: of to a fault, Nolan has taken a really shocking

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Speaker 5: amount of flak for the costumed choices, for decor choices,

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Speaker 5: production design, individual casting, costuming, language, the accents of the

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Speaker 5: I like, it just seems like every day there's a

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Speaker 5: new story that's Christopher Nolan defends the blank in the

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Speaker 5: Odyssey or explains the choice to blank in the Odyssey,

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Speaker 5: and it's like, who are all of these like Greek

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Speaker 5: literature fans that are that are so damn mad about

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Speaker 5: the details of the armor in this adaptation. But you know,

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Speaker 5: it's it's just maybe.

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Speaker 6: Just historical record, like acting like and then I appreciate.

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Speaker 7: I think it announces that it's going to be tailored

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Speaker 7: for you know, it's going to be sort of a

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Speaker 7: not period specific when the moment it starts using the

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Speaker 7: words dad and mom, Okay, yeah, this this is this

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Speaker 7: is you know, contemporary language. Let's let's go with that.

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Speaker 7: That's that's fine. Before we move on too quickly, Tasha,

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Speaker 7: if you want to picture the Trojan horse with like

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Speaker 7: a little fold out pouch, you should google the popcorn

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Speaker 7: bucket very.

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Speaker 5: You know, having having got the details from the movie

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Speaker 5: of what it must have been like inside that horse

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Speaker 5: and also from a C. S. Lewis tried to write

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Speaker 5: a novel about the Sack of Troy, and the part

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Speaker 5: that he finished is just what it was like to

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Speaker 5: be inside the Trojan Horse, and it's much much like

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Speaker 5: this movie. It's fascinating. I really really wish that he

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Speaker 5: had finished that book, but he wasn't sure where to

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Speaker 5: go with it. All that in mind, I don't think

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Speaker 5: I would want to put food into a Trojan Horse

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Speaker 5: and eat out of it at this point. Too many

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Speaker 5: bad associations, so to speaking of associations here, like this

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Speaker 5: is a story that is told via association, kind of

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Speaker 5: one thing leading to another, jumping back and forth in time.

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Speaker 5: You know, somebody telling a story, segueing to what the

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Speaker 5: story was, like somebody re experiencing a memory, taking us

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Speaker 5: to that memory and seeing what the experience was for

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Speaker 5: the first time. It's a very nonlinear film. Was there

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Speaker 5: anything in that that I don't know? Do you up

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Speaker 5: or that you wanted more of at a different time?

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Speaker 5: Like do you think this was the only order to

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Speaker 5: tell the story in? How did you? How did you

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Speaker 5: take the nonlinearity aspect of it? The biggest nolanism.

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Speaker 7: Can I give you an example that I think, really,

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Speaker 7: really works.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, it's.

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Speaker 7: When Solemicus is visiting in Alais and Sparta and they

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Speaker 7: do that that amazing build up to opening the gates

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Speaker 7: of Troy and the soldiers rush in, and then he

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Speaker 7: just goes, well, you know the rest of the story,

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Speaker 7: which actually got a laugh for me at the moment,

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Speaker 7: And then when they actually come back and show you

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Speaker 7: the rest of the story, it's like, oh, this is

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Speaker 7: why he's not telling us. He's alighting over what actually

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Speaker 7: happens once those gates are open, for reasons, you know,

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Speaker 7: maybe you know, I think several different ways you could

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Speaker 7: read why he's he's withholding those details, but it's really

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Speaker 7: effective to split up that sequence across not quite too

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Speaker 7: opposite to the three hour movie, but fairly far far

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Speaker 7: apart from one another.

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Speaker 6: I wouldn't say that it doesn't work for me, and

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Speaker 6: I certainly don't have an idea of, you know, how

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Speaker 6: Nolan could have done it better, and I would never

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Speaker 6: dare say as much. But maybe it was because it's

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Speaker 6: so long before we actually get to Odysseus on Calypso's Island,

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Speaker 6: that the length of time he had been there, the

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Speaker 6: length of time that had just been like wasted away

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Speaker 6: there didn't really translate. Maybe because we were jumping around

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Speaker 6: so much. It felt like something we just really had

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Speaker 6: to be told, you know, through dialogue. And that's probably,

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Speaker 6: like I said, the best way to do that. I

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Speaker 6: don't have a better way to do that. But because

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Speaker 6: of how much we are jumping around, both in time

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Speaker 6: and setting, like when we are supposed to feel like

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Speaker 6: we have been in a place where our character has

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Speaker 6: been in a place for a really long time, it's

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Speaker 6: maybe a little harder to bring that across. Or the

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Speaker 6: men on the beach waiting to sack Troy, you know,

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Speaker 6: they're there for years, you know. And again, it's just

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Speaker 6: something we have to be told. And it's not like

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Speaker 6: I want to spend an hour on the like on

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Speaker 6: that beach. But I think maybe sort of an artifact

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Speaker 6: of this approach of jumping around so much is that

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Speaker 6: you lose a little bit of that sense of languishing

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Speaker 6: in some of these places, Like.

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Speaker 2: I said, when that moment hits though, it hits so hard.

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Speaker 4: Though I guess to defend the film a little bit,

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Speaker 4: I think I think it gives you the impact that

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Speaker 4: you that you know, and this is maybe a credit

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Speaker 4: to you know, the scene itself when when when he

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Speaker 4: when he's told and comes to realize how much time

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Speaker 4: has passed, you know, you know, the performances. I think

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Speaker 4: that's a really strong moment for met Damon. I feel

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Speaker 4: like the impact of that time lost, you know, and

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Speaker 4: that realization, that revelation is it has that kind of

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Speaker 4: kick that you want it to have, so get it

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Speaker 4: gets there, I guess.

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Speaker 2: And as far as the other, you know, chronology, I

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Speaker 2: think I think it's a it's.

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Speaker 4: A film that where the structure of it and the

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Speaker 4: chronology of it is all about like where can we

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Speaker 4: place these these scenes in these flashbacks? Where where's the

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Speaker 4: most effective spot for this stuff to land?

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Speaker 2: You know? And uh and I think in that sense

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Speaker 2: of poet is wildly effective.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I certainly agree that there's a feeling of Nolan

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Speaker 5: kind of I really wonder what the process was like,

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Speaker 5: like how many iterations the script went through in terms

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Speaker 5: of figuring out that balance in terms of where things

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Speaker 5: should go. But as it is, you know, we we

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Speaker 5: have to space out some of the combat, so you know,

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Speaker 5: there isn't one gigantic set piece like that, and then

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Speaker 5: just a whole lot of talking, you know, even if

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Speaker 5: it is talking to two shades and Tartarus. But regardless,

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Speaker 5: I feel like the time signatures here are maybe one

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Speaker 5: of the most obvious nolanisms of the movie. But I'm

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Speaker 5: curious what else you see, as you know, signs that

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Speaker 5: this is a Nolan movie, or thoughts on how this

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Speaker 5: fits into Nolan's interests and kind of the direction his

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Speaker 5: film career has been going. So we're going to take

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Speaker 5: a short break and then we're going to come back

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Speaker 5: with that.

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Speaker 3: Why can't God speak in ways we understand?

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Speaker 5: Who doesn't understand?

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Speaker 3: Thunder fire?

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Speaker 5: A child, smile, good harvest?

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Speaker 3: Can you hide yourselves from us?

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Speaker 8: Look?

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Speaker 3: What's moving that cloud?

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Speaker 5: Massing those birds? What's moving the water? So what do

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Speaker 5: you think? I mean, reading interviews with him, he just

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Speaker 5: kind of talks about how he needed something epic to

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Speaker 5: follow up the scope of Oppenheimer, And I mean that

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Speaker 5: almost seems like a pun. It seems like sort of

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Speaker 5: a light thing that you throw at the media, to

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Speaker 5: the media to cover up like why this is an obsession?

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Speaker 5: But how have you parsed kind of the odyssey fitting

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Speaker 5: into what Christopher Nolan cares about or the way Christopher

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Speaker 5: Nolan tells stories I mattion this a.

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Speaker 4: Little bit earlier, but it feels natural as a follow

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Speaker 4: up to Oppenheimer, just in terms of these leaders having

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Speaker 4: to make decisions that are going to cost the lives

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Speaker 4: of many people, that are going to weigh heavily on

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Speaker 4: their consciences, that are going to oftentimes be decisions that

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Speaker 4: are going to be a decision between a bad outcome

403
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Speaker 4: in a worse outcome, and where all of that ends

404
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Speaker 4: up leaving you and leaving your soul at the end

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Speaker 4: of the line. And so I think I think, you know,

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Speaker 4: the two films, those two films kind of match up

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Speaker 4: quite nicely. And then the other stuff just has to

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Speaker 4: do with you know that though those kind of old

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Speaker 4: Nolan themes we talked about to time being the most

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Speaker 4: significant one. I guess it's weird that he and Richard

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Speaker 4: link Ladd are two of those, those two of their

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Speaker 4: you know, you don't necessarily think of them as as

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Speaker 4: similar filmmakers, but they just keep coming back to that theater.

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Speaker 4: They just love to explore time and and and uh,

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Speaker 4: you know the impact that it has on people's uh,

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Speaker 4: you know, souls basically.

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Speaker 2: Uh, and you know, this is a film that really,

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Speaker 2: you know, effectively, you know, it makes you kind of

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Speaker 2: feel that way.

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Speaker 7: I'm using this term somewhat reluctantly, and I certainly not

421
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Speaker 7: the first person to draw comparison between Oppenheimer and this film,

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Speaker 7: even on this podcast, But the sack of Troy seeing

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Speaker 7: the ladder, the later version of the more drawn out

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Speaker 7: version of being a little vague here if for people

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Speaker 7: who have not seen the movie, Cannes Apheimer in a way.

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Speaker 7: But they're most really apocalyptic, I mean just really just

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Speaker 7: scenes of devastation. But also, you know, I think they're

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Speaker 7: both scenes that kind of make you want to question,

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Speaker 7: to humans had to conduct ourselves this way in the world?

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Speaker 7: Is there really no other path forward than just having

431
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Speaker 7: civilizations clash and have violence and death and might be

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Speaker 7: what the ultimate determinant of what shapes the direction of

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Speaker 7: the world. Where he's really dealing with very big themes here,

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00:24:42,925 --> 00:24:46,165
Speaker 7: But as Scott Scott's review for the Reveal, it's really

435
00:24:46,205 --> 00:24:48,925
Speaker 7: good pointing out using also working on a very small scale,

436
00:24:49,005 --> 00:24:51,365
Speaker 7: it's a very human drama at the same time. So

437
00:24:51,605 --> 00:24:54,565
Speaker 7: and I guess maybe that's another connection too, is that

438
00:24:54,765 --> 00:24:56,965
Speaker 7: it is there is sort of like, yeah, I think

439
00:24:56,965 --> 00:25:01,285
Speaker 7: there is sort of an abiding interest in how these

440
00:25:01,445 --> 00:25:03,965
Speaker 7: very big things play out in the lives of just

441
00:25:04,045 --> 00:25:05,165
Speaker 7: one or two people.

442
00:25:04,885 --> 00:25:07,125
Speaker 4: In a way you know, you talk about we talk

443
00:25:07,165 --> 00:25:10,285
Speaker 4: about to the intimacy of scale. When you then get

444
00:25:10,285 --> 00:25:12,765
Speaker 4: to the end of the the film and you'r and

445
00:25:13,205 --> 00:25:17,045
Speaker 4: Odysseas is finally you know, has that really wonderful scene

446
00:25:17,125 --> 00:25:20,325
Speaker 4: with his wife. I was it round me so much

447
00:25:20,365 --> 00:25:23,885
Speaker 4: of the movie Sancho the Bailiff, which is which is

448
00:25:23,965 --> 00:25:28,645
Speaker 4: another film where about a very long, tragic journey where

449
00:25:28,765 --> 00:25:34,045
Speaker 4: family members are separated seemingly forever and find each other,

450
00:25:34,245 --> 00:25:37,725
Speaker 4: you know, and and there's been so much loss and

451
00:25:37,805 --> 00:25:40,605
Speaker 4: so much to kind of cry about, really, but it's

452
00:25:40,645 --> 00:25:44,405
Speaker 4: also you know, it's just this incredibly transcendent moment as well,

453
00:25:44,445 --> 00:25:46,845
Speaker 4: and it felt it felt so connected to that movie

454
00:25:46,925 --> 00:25:50,685
Speaker 4: for me. So and certainly that's a small moment in

455
00:25:50,725 --> 00:25:54,365
Speaker 4: a you know, in a sweeping epic, historical, historic tale.

456
00:25:54,525 --> 00:25:57,085
Speaker 6: To return to what Keith was pointing about about the

457
00:25:57,605 --> 00:26:02,685
Speaker 6: humanistic aspect of this being very Nolan esque. I don't

458
00:26:02,685 --> 00:26:05,485
Speaker 6: know if any of you got to read Bilga Abiri's

459
00:26:05,565 --> 00:26:09,405
Speaker 6: behind the scenes making of Piece of the Odyssey on Vulture.

460
00:26:09,485 --> 00:26:11,845
Speaker 6: If you haven't, I highly recommend it. It's he got

461
00:26:11,845 --> 00:26:15,405
Speaker 6: so much good stuff. One tiny thing that it points

462
00:26:15,445 --> 00:26:18,485
Speaker 6: out that I never thought about is before this Nolan

463
00:26:18,565 --> 00:26:21,445
Speaker 6: has never made a film to depict the supern natural.

464
00:26:21,925 --> 00:26:24,925
Speaker 6: And you can take that in the context of you know,

465
00:26:25,005 --> 00:26:29,165
Speaker 6: the monsters, the cyclops, the giants, whatnot. But also I

466
00:26:29,205 --> 00:26:32,725
Speaker 6: think it's interesting to think about in how this film

467
00:26:33,365 --> 00:26:37,445
Speaker 6: depicts or doesn't the gods. You know, we only really

468
00:26:37,765 --> 00:26:43,765
Speaker 6: get FaceTime with one of the gods, Athena, and I

469
00:26:43,845 --> 00:26:47,845
Speaker 6: won't spoil what it does with that character, but it

470
00:26:47,925 --> 00:26:52,285
Speaker 6: does add some I guess, ambiguity to how you read

471
00:26:52,405 --> 00:26:57,805
Speaker 6: her control over this narrative. And you know, the Odyssey

472
00:26:57,885 --> 00:27:00,885
Speaker 6: is kind of famously a battle between gods, you know,

473
00:27:00,965 --> 00:27:05,244
Speaker 6: Poseidon and Athena, and they are much more active in

474
00:27:05,325 --> 00:27:08,645
Speaker 6: the narrative. And this movie, like it talks about the

475
00:27:08,685 --> 00:27:13,045
Speaker 6: gods all the time, like they're being referenced constantly, but

476
00:27:13,725 --> 00:27:20,045
Speaker 6: it always comes back to man's understanding of gods and

477
00:27:20,805 --> 00:27:23,245
Speaker 6: it there I think there is a reading of this

478
00:27:23,365 --> 00:27:26,525
Speaker 6: film where the gods don't even exist, you know, or

479
00:27:26,525 --> 00:27:30,485
Speaker 6: it's it's faith, you know. And it's really interesting the

480
00:27:30,485 --> 00:27:35,485
Speaker 6: way that Nolan layers in those different interpretations of what's happening,

481
00:27:35,885 --> 00:27:39,685
Speaker 6: and it all does kind of center on the idea

482
00:27:39,885 --> 00:27:43,165
Speaker 6: of this as a story about humans and what humans

483
00:27:43,205 --> 00:27:46,365
Speaker 6: do to each other and what civilizations do to each

484
00:27:46,405 --> 00:27:49,845
Speaker 6: other and to themselves. And I don't even have my

485
00:27:49,925 --> 00:27:52,765
Speaker 6: mind wrapped fully around it yet because I'm a few

486
00:27:52,805 --> 00:27:56,445
Speaker 6: hours off of seeing this film, but it's definitely something

487
00:27:56,525 --> 00:27:59,565
Speaker 6: that I felt only he could tell this story this way.

488
00:28:00,165 --> 00:28:04,365
Speaker 5: I was surprised at the use of what I mean

489
00:28:04,405 --> 00:28:08,365
Speaker 5: there is there's definitely magic in this uh. In this movie,

490
00:28:08,365 --> 00:28:12,245
Speaker 5: there's definitely the supernatural. Even if the gods are conceptual,

491
00:28:12,845 --> 00:28:15,165
Speaker 5: the magic that turns men into pigs and then brings

492
00:28:15,205 --> 00:28:19,045
Speaker 5: them back again is real. And you know, if you

493
00:28:19,165 --> 00:28:23,925
Speaker 5: take elements like the psyclops and Skillo, which is such

494
00:28:23,965 --> 00:28:30,085
Speaker 5: a very Christopher Nolan esque abstractness of a monster. I

495
00:28:30,125 --> 00:28:32,605
Speaker 5: was a little shocked to see on screen, just because

496
00:28:33,085 --> 00:28:37,485
Speaker 5: a really hard avoided trailers for this movie. I wanted

497
00:28:37,485 --> 00:28:39,365
Speaker 5: to watch it on its own merits. I didn't want

498
00:28:39,365 --> 00:28:43,325
Speaker 5: anything spoiled beforehand, so I didn't know what to expect,

499
00:28:43,365 --> 00:28:45,405
Speaker 5: And there was a moment where I was like, you know,

500
00:28:45,445 --> 00:28:49,525
Speaker 5: based on how he's handling the gods and the relationship

501
00:28:49,605 --> 00:28:52,965
Speaker 5: with people, is there going to be nothing in this

502
00:28:53,205 --> 00:28:58,525
Speaker 5: that couldn't be explained in real life. And the Psychops

503
00:28:58,605 --> 00:29:01,845
Speaker 5: shows up on screen, I'm like, Okay, nope, we're definitely

504
00:29:01,845 --> 00:29:03,925
Speaker 5: in the realm of myths and monsters here.

505
00:29:04,245 --> 00:29:08,765
Speaker 6: The Cyclops is not named as Polyfemus the soldiers like,

506
00:29:08,965 --> 00:29:11,925
Speaker 6: say he's the son of or say they think he

507
00:29:12,045 --> 00:29:15,445
Speaker 6: calls out Poseidon's name, like in the credits, it's just

508
00:29:15,525 --> 00:29:20,125
Speaker 6: the Cyclops, you know. The direct link to Poseidon is

509
00:29:20,245 --> 00:29:22,125
Speaker 6: left up to interpretation.

510
00:29:22,485 --> 00:29:25,565
Speaker 5: Oh sure, but I mean he's also fifteen foot.

511
00:29:25,645 --> 00:29:27,525
Speaker 6: Well, it's a time of magic and monsters. That's what

512
00:29:27,565 --> 00:29:29,765
Speaker 6: they tell us at the beginning of the movie, right.

513
00:29:30,885 --> 00:29:33,845
Speaker 7: Is the time of apparent magic, Yes, which to me,

514
00:29:34,285 --> 00:29:36,965
Speaker 7: like could read it is like maybe it's magic, maybe

515
00:29:36,965 --> 00:29:40,205
Speaker 7: it's not, or magic can see versus the time we

516
00:29:40,245 --> 00:29:42,565
Speaker 7: live in now, where magic is not something that we

517
00:29:42,605 --> 00:29:44,645
Speaker 7: can see, which I think. I think it's interesting to

518
00:29:44,845 --> 00:29:45,565
Speaker 7: phrase it that way.

519
00:29:45,845 --> 00:29:49,365
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think the ambiguity there is different and very deliberate.

520
00:29:49,725 --> 00:29:52,925
Speaker 5: But god, that's just one of many many rabbit holes

521
00:29:52,965 --> 00:29:54,565
Speaker 5: we could go down. I want to talk a little

522
00:29:54,605 --> 00:29:57,645
Speaker 5: about the look of this movie. It's kind of got

523
00:29:57,645 --> 00:30:01,165
Speaker 5: that like dark and dissaturated thing going on that has

524
00:30:01,205 --> 00:30:05,885
Speaker 5: become popular in fantasy movies in particular over the last

525
00:30:05,885 --> 00:30:09,885
Speaker 5: couple of decades, and there are moments in it that

526
00:30:10,205 --> 00:30:13,725
Speaker 5: really work. Like the entire look of Tartarus I thought

527
00:30:13,765 --> 00:30:17,805
Speaker 5: was amazing, and not to mention sort of the interpretation

528
00:30:18,525 --> 00:30:21,445
Speaker 5: of how that sequence all goes and how it feels.

529
00:30:21,965 --> 00:30:24,685
Speaker 5: But apart from that, it was the one thing that

530
00:30:24,725 --> 00:30:27,325
Speaker 5: I was maybe a little back and forth on is

531
00:30:27,445 --> 00:30:31,645
Speaker 5: just how kind of like dim and dingy, so much

532
00:30:31,645 --> 00:30:36,285
Speaker 5: of this movie looks deliberately, and like the grubbiness and

533
00:30:36,325 --> 00:30:40,685
Speaker 5: grime is certainly deliberate, the heaviness of the kind of

534
00:30:40,685 --> 00:30:43,925
Speaker 5: the way the world hangs over Odysseus in most places,

535
00:30:44,405 --> 00:30:47,365
Speaker 5: the way that lifts on Calypso's island, where everything is

536
00:30:47,525 --> 00:30:51,725
Speaker 5: very bright and clean, and you know, she's a very

537
00:30:51,765 --> 00:30:55,765
Speaker 5: pale woman with very blonde hair, wearing very white clothing.

538
00:30:55,845 --> 00:30:59,405
Speaker 5: Everything is just lightened compared to a lot of the

539
00:30:59,445 --> 00:31:01,525
Speaker 5: rest of the movie. What did you think about the

540
00:31:01,885 --> 00:31:02,685
Speaker 5: look of this film?

541
00:31:03,005 --> 00:31:06,365
Speaker 7: I mean, I'm a big fan of cinematographer Hoit Van Hoittaba,

542
00:31:06,485 --> 00:31:11,565
Speaker 7: who shot the last few Nolan films. Shot Take a Tailor,

543
00:31:11,605 --> 00:31:13,405
Speaker 7: Soldier Spy. I think I think this big breakthrough is

544
00:31:13,445 --> 00:31:15,525
Speaker 7: let the right one in. I think it's just really

545
00:31:16,005 --> 00:31:18,485
Speaker 7: good with dealing with those shadows and like sometimes you

546
00:31:18,525 --> 00:31:22,045
Speaker 7: get these really amazing contrasts, as in this the Cyclops cave,

547
00:31:22,565 --> 00:31:26,525
Speaker 7: where you know, light just disappears once the cave is sealed.

548
00:31:26,885 --> 00:31:30,205
Speaker 7: I'm kind of struck by also the scenes communicating with

549
00:31:30,205 --> 00:31:33,925
Speaker 7: the dead outside Hades or Oceantis. Just to look at that,

550
00:31:34,005 --> 00:31:36,525
Speaker 7: like the black sand, like you know, you can clock

551
00:31:36,565 --> 00:31:38,485
Speaker 7: it instantly. It's Iceland because no hustle in the world,

552
00:31:38,805 --> 00:31:41,125
Speaker 7: nowhere else in the world books like that. But it

553
00:31:41,165 --> 00:31:44,085
Speaker 7: does have this really other worldly feel to it as well.

554
00:31:44,085 --> 00:31:47,205
Speaker 7: And I in the use of like just fire amongst

555
00:31:47,205 --> 00:31:50,405
Speaker 7: this like mist in this was really effective too. Yeah.

556
00:31:50,405 --> 00:31:51,925
Speaker 7: I think it's a gorgeous, loky film and I need

557
00:31:51,965 --> 00:31:53,725
Speaker 7: I need to. I have not seen it yet on Imax.

558
00:31:53,765 --> 00:31:56,085
Speaker 7: I'm seeing that on Imax in a couple of days.

559
00:31:56,085 --> 00:31:58,285
Speaker 6: So yeah, I was just gonna say, we need to

560
00:31:58,325 --> 00:32:00,885
Speaker 6: go around and say how each of us.

561
00:32:00,965 --> 00:32:03,925
Speaker 4: Saw Tasha and I touched and I saw it on

562
00:32:04,485 --> 00:32:08,205
Speaker 4: you're at that screening right the seventy it was seventy millimeter.

563
00:32:08,525 --> 00:32:11,885
Speaker 4: It's how exciting, right, which you don't expect at this

564
00:32:11,965 --> 00:32:14,765
Speaker 4: AMC theater that I didn't even know was equipped it,

565
00:32:14,805 --> 00:32:16,045
Speaker 4: but they must have brought it in.

566
00:32:16,965 --> 00:32:19,005
Speaker 7: I saw this closure day in seventy milimeters death theater

567
00:32:19,085 --> 00:32:19,645
Speaker 7: looked at the literally.

568
00:32:19,805 --> 00:32:22,245
Speaker 4: Problem is like maybe people aren't used to showing things

569
00:32:22,285 --> 00:32:26,165
Speaker 4: on film because it was out of frame the entire way,

570
00:32:26,525 --> 00:32:28,765
Speaker 4: or should I say they weren't. It wasn't centered, and

571
00:32:28,845 --> 00:32:31,765
Speaker 4: so maybe you were getting the whole image, but it

572
00:32:31,805 --> 00:32:34,805
Speaker 4: was unmasked and so the top chunk of the screen

573
00:32:34,925 --> 00:32:35,565
Speaker 4: was just black.

574
00:32:36,285 --> 00:32:37,325
Speaker 2: I was irritating.

575
00:32:37,365 --> 00:32:39,525
Speaker 4: It took me literally twenty minutes before I was like, Okay,

576
00:32:39,565 --> 00:32:41,405
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna make my piece of this because it

577
00:32:41,445 --> 00:32:42,965
Speaker 4: was so irritating to watch.

578
00:32:43,685 --> 00:32:45,725
Speaker 5: But we definitely we got the whole image. I just

579
00:32:45,765 --> 00:32:47,765
Speaker 5: want to throw that out there, because you could actually

580
00:32:47,765 --> 00:32:51,605
Speaker 5: see just like the bottom line of the image because.

581
00:32:52,045 --> 00:32:53,485
Speaker 2: You were twitching. Were you not twitching?

582
00:32:53,645 --> 00:32:55,405
Speaker 5: I was not twitching, but I could. I could hear

583
00:32:55,485 --> 00:32:59,045
Speaker 5: people around me grumbling about it in the first minute

584
00:32:59,165 --> 00:33:02,165
Speaker 5: or so, and I kind of had a moment of like, well,

585
00:33:02,205 --> 00:33:04,605
Speaker 5: if we're getting part of the image cut off, this

586
00:33:04,645 --> 00:33:07,005
Speaker 5: is a problem and we need to speak to somebody.

587
00:33:07,245 --> 00:33:09,925
Speaker 5: And then I looked and I'm like, no, we're literally

588
00:33:09,965 --> 00:33:12,485
Speaker 5: seeing where the image in that job would be.

589
00:33:12,805 --> 00:33:15,525
Speaker 4: I mean I was a projectionist, you would center the frame,

590
00:33:15,565 --> 00:33:17,645
Speaker 4: you would bring it up to where you would you

591
00:33:17,685 --> 00:33:20,045
Speaker 4: probably have a little bit on the black on the bottom,

592
00:33:20,085 --> 00:33:20,925
Speaker 4: a little black on the top.

593
00:33:21,205 --> 00:33:24,765
Speaker 5: Sure, but this is a perfectionist note as opposed to

594
00:33:25,005 --> 00:33:27,805
Speaker 5: this is a travesty. We we were getting imaged.

595
00:33:27,805 --> 00:33:30,845
Speaker 4: It was It wasn't it was just it was an

596
00:33:30,885 --> 00:33:33,165
Speaker 4: irritant But as you know, I'm glad that it's done

597
00:33:33,165 --> 00:33:35,525
Speaker 4: in this format. And to kind of go back to

598
00:33:35,685 --> 00:33:38,165
Speaker 4: the question about the about the look of this movie,

599
00:33:38,645 --> 00:33:42,165
Speaker 4: what impressed me the most about it, you know, especially

600
00:33:42,245 --> 00:33:44,125
Speaker 4: for a film with a lot that is going to

601
00:33:44,165 --> 00:33:49,605
Speaker 4: have a lot of effects, is how physical a production

602
00:33:49,885 --> 00:33:53,485
Speaker 4: that it feels like immensity of it feels like you know,

603
00:33:53,765 --> 00:33:54,885
Speaker 4: intolerance or something.

604
00:33:58,485 --> 00:34:00,485
Speaker 2: It's a boat. We always think about that to me, To.

605
00:34:00,485 --> 00:34:04,125
Speaker 4: Me like I always remember, you know, the year when

606
00:34:04,165 --> 00:34:06,685
Speaker 4: both when Master and Commander came out the same year

607
00:34:06,765 --> 00:34:09,445
Speaker 4: as Pirates of the Caribbean, and thinking about the boats

608
00:34:09,445 --> 00:34:12,444
Speaker 4: in those movies and how much Master Commander had just

609
00:34:12,525 --> 00:34:16,605
Speaker 4: that unbelievable physical weight to it, and how how the

610
00:34:16,645 --> 00:34:19,285
Speaker 4: impact that that has on you as a viewer, and

611
00:34:19,605 --> 00:34:21,404
Speaker 4: I think I think you get a little bit you

612
00:34:21,405 --> 00:34:24,484
Speaker 4: eat a lot of that here with the Odyssey of

613
00:34:24,565 --> 00:34:28,445
Speaker 4: just of trying to even with all of these effects,

614
00:34:28,525 --> 00:34:31,405
Speaker 4: trying to make it as physical a production as possible,

615
00:34:31,525 --> 00:34:33,565
Speaker 4: in making the audience kind of feel the impact of that,

616
00:34:33,605 --> 00:34:36,005
Speaker 4: because I think when you do need a lot of

617
00:34:36,045 --> 00:34:39,365
Speaker 4: effects and you are dealing with mythical creatures and monsters

618
00:34:39,365 --> 00:34:42,045
Speaker 4: and things that are not natural, you can kind of

619
00:34:42,045 --> 00:34:45,205
Speaker 4: get lost into sort of digital environments. And this doesn't

620
00:34:45,245 --> 00:34:46,364
Speaker 4: get lost in that at all.

621
00:34:47,045 --> 00:34:49,445
Speaker 6: I did not see it on seventy millimeters, but I

622
00:34:49,485 --> 00:34:55,844
Speaker 6: did see it on Imax laser, which was actually gorgeous. Like,

623
00:34:56,205 --> 00:34:59,605
Speaker 6: I have no complaints about it, and I think for

624
00:34:59,925 --> 00:35:04,205
Speaker 6: a film that is you know, as Tasha says, maybe

625
00:35:04,205 --> 00:35:08,405
Speaker 6: a little dingy or dark by design, Like it never

626
00:35:08,645 --> 00:35:12,844
Speaker 6: felt washed out or hard to see. To me. It

627
00:35:12,845 --> 00:35:15,365
Speaker 6: always felt very purposeful. I mean, if we want to

628
00:35:15,365 --> 00:35:20,325
Speaker 6: go back to historical accuracy, you know, a very brightly

629
00:35:20,405 --> 00:35:25,325
Speaker 6: colored Odyssey would perhaps not be the most realistic one

630
00:35:26,125 --> 00:35:26,685
Speaker 6: in terms.

631
00:35:26,525 --> 00:35:29,605
Speaker 5: Of light lights like the in back rooms.

632
00:35:30,765 --> 00:35:34,445
Speaker 6: Yeah, in both like lighting and production design and setting,

633
00:35:34,485 --> 00:35:38,285
Speaker 6: you know, but it makes use of that darkness or

634
00:35:38,365 --> 00:35:43,725
Speaker 6: the you know, monochromaticness at times in ways that feel

635
00:35:43,805 --> 00:35:48,325
Speaker 6: purposeful and that makes them feel beautiful and not like

636
00:35:48,525 --> 00:35:49,805
Speaker 6: a missed opportunity.

637
00:35:49,885 --> 00:35:52,365
Speaker 5: I guess, well, there's a lot more to talk about

638
00:35:52,405 --> 00:35:54,765
Speaker 5: in this movie, but we should move on to connections,

639
00:35:54,765 --> 00:35:56,805
Speaker 5: and I think some of the things that I most

640
00:35:56,885 --> 00:35:59,885
Speaker 5: want to delve into are things that would be interesting

641
00:35:59,925 --> 00:36:02,525
Speaker 5: to bring up specifically in connection with Oh Brother or

642
00:36:02,605 --> 00:36:05,565
Speaker 5: Art though, anything you guys want to make sure we

643
00:36:05,605 --> 00:36:09,205
Speaker 5: talk about before we transition off just talking about the Odyssey.

644
00:36:09,205 --> 00:36:11,765
Speaker 6: Well, Oh Brother, Art though, does have a dog, but

645
00:36:11,885 --> 00:36:16,645
Speaker 6: it does not have the very best boy ever argos

646
00:36:16,925 --> 00:36:20,285
Speaker 6: which they see pack the dogs, true, but they are

647
00:36:20,365 --> 00:36:24,685
Speaker 6: no argos. So, Tasha, I sensed a little in our

648
00:36:24,765 --> 00:36:28,885
Speaker 6: last episode. I sensed maybe a little skepticism toward the

649
00:36:29,005 --> 00:36:31,805
Speaker 6: use of argos and an Odyssey is.

650
00:36:32,285 --> 00:36:35,565
Speaker 5: But I loved it, not skepticism per se. I don't know,

651
00:36:35,565 --> 00:36:38,245
Speaker 5: one hundred percent love the way it was handled in that,

652
00:36:38,645 --> 00:36:43,165
Speaker 5: you know, I think of the Argus story as being

653
00:36:43,365 --> 00:36:45,845
Speaker 5: about a dog that got the one thing that it

654
00:36:46,445 --> 00:36:48,245
Speaker 5: wanted most, the one thing it was hanging on for,

655
00:36:48,845 --> 00:36:51,884
Speaker 5: and the degree to which Argus, like I know, it's

656
00:36:51,925 --> 00:36:54,925
Speaker 5: meant to be a very old dog is just waiting

657
00:36:54,925 --> 00:36:56,965
Speaker 5: for his master to come home, and you know it's

658
00:36:57,085 --> 00:37:00,525
Speaker 5: it's just the small reaction that tips Telemachus off to

659
00:37:00,565 --> 00:37:05,045
Speaker 5: what he's seeing. But having Argust be so decrepit and

660
00:37:05,085 --> 00:37:08,205
Speaker 5: getting kicked and stomped on and thrown on the dung heap,

661
00:37:08,245 --> 00:37:10,405
Speaker 5: and then lying there on the dung heap apparently not

662
00:37:10,485 --> 00:37:13,404
Speaker 5: being fed for god who knows how long, and then

663
00:37:13,565 --> 00:37:17,765
Speaker 5: barely being alive to see Odussius coming home. Is it

664
00:37:17,805 --> 00:37:21,285
Speaker 5: weird to say it was sadder than I necessary really

665
00:37:21,445 --> 00:37:26,085
Speaker 5: wanted out of a movie that's expressly about, you know,

666
00:37:26,365 --> 00:37:31,245
Speaker 5: the immense loss of human life and the immense suffering

667
00:37:31,285 --> 00:37:33,325
Speaker 5: of this journey and the horse material.

668
00:37:33,805 --> 00:37:35,645
Speaker 7: All I can say it's right there on the page.

669
00:37:35,845 --> 00:37:38,205
Speaker 6: I mean, I don't disagree that it's it's very hard

670
00:37:38,245 --> 00:37:41,045
Speaker 6: to see Argus treat it that way. That said, we

671
00:37:41,125 --> 00:37:43,605
Speaker 6: see other dogs treated much much.

672
00:37:43,365 --> 00:37:46,685
Speaker 5: Worse, fucking puppies off cliffs.

673
00:37:47,005 --> 00:37:51,325
Speaker 6: Yeah, so you know it definitely I guess set the

674
00:37:51,365 --> 00:37:57,325
Speaker 6: bar high slash low when it comes to dog endangerment sensitivities.

675
00:37:57,765 --> 00:38:00,965
Speaker 6: But the payoff was it worked for me good.

676
00:38:01,925 --> 00:38:05,845
Speaker 5: It is always interesting to see the you know, I

677
00:38:06,565 --> 00:38:09,165
Speaker 5: know people have a soft spot for animals. I've got

678
00:38:09,205 --> 00:38:11,765
Speaker 5: a soft spot for my own animals and for other

679
00:38:11,805 --> 00:38:13,765
Speaker 5: people's animals. I am the kind of person that might

680
00:38:13,805 --> 00:38:15,844
Speaker 5: go to a party and spend most of the time

681
00:38:15,885 --> 00:38:18,765
Speaker 5: hanging out with a cat or the dog. But the

682
00:38:18,965 --> 00:38:23,205
Speaker 5: vocal difference in the theater between several men get their

683
00:38:23,205 --> 00:38:26,845
Speaker 5: heads bitten off while struggling and screaming for desperately for

684
00:38:26,925 --> 00:38:29,725
Speaker 5: life versus a puppy gets hooked off a cliff, like

685
00:38:29,765 --> 00:38:34,845
Speaker 5: the visceral noise in the theater when that happened, it

686
00:38:34,885 --> 00:38:39,805
Speaker 5: should always remarkable. I don't recall any particular noise in

687
00:38:39,845 --> 00:38:42,565
Speaker 5: the theater when the dog goes floating by underwater and

688
00:38:42,645 --> 00:38:45,645
Speaker 5: no brother, where art thou? But that definitely takes a

689
00:38:45,685 --> 00:38:48,245
Speaker 5: still place of comparison between the two. So maybe we

690
00:38:48,245 --> 00:38:58,005
Speaker 5: should take a break and then come back with connections.

691
00:39:00,205 --> 00:39:02,964
Speaker 3: We'll raise the sail, follow the southerly winds.

692
00:39:02,765 --> 00:39:07,085
Speaker 7: History Hagamemnon's growing west on the known provisions route.

693
00:39:07,245 --> 00:39:10,405
Speaker 3: It's got more mouths to feed. We'll find places at

694
00:39:10,445 --> 00:39:12,965
Speaker 3: the limp Are you sure it's a risk that's followed

695
00:39:13,005 --> 00:39:14,205
Speaker 3: Agamemnon long enough?

696
00:39:15,045 --> 00:39:17,965
Speaker 2: But little luck and the right winds, we'll see some

697
00:39:18,045 --> 00:39:20,765
Speaker 2: of the world still be on before Agamemnon.

698
00:39:21,165 --> 00:39:23,005
Speaker 5: Now it's time for connections, when we bring these two

699
00:39:23,045 --> 00:39:25,365
Speaker 5: films together and talk about all the things they have

700
00:39:25,485 --> 00:39:27,924
Speaker 5: in common. I mean, starting.

701
00:39:28,485 --> 00:39:34,205
Speaker 9: Fact that both yeah, epic journeys, like literal journeys, literal epics,

702
00:39:34,445 --> 00:39:37,845
Speaker 9: you know, both about homecomings and about somebody struggling to

703
00:39:37,845 --> 00:39:39,645
Speaker 9: get home against long odds.

704
00:39:40,365 --> 00:39:44,925
Speaker 5: I will say that one kind of almost silly thing

705
00:39:44,965 --> 00:39:47,445
Speaker 5: these two movies have in common is that I have

706
00:39:47,565 --> 00:39:51,805
Speaker 5: no freaking sense whatsoever the geography involved, you know. I

707
00:39:53,285 --> 00:39:56,005
Speaker 5: think in the Odyssey you feel that as kind of

708
00:39:56,045 --> 00:39:59,845
Speaker 5: a physical weight, you know, you keep being told they're lost,

709
00:40:00,245 --> 00:40:05,285
Speaker 5: the degree to which Urlacus emphasizes every time that ship

710
00:40:05,405 --> 00:40:08,565
Speaker 5: sees land. He kind of turns to Odysseus and says,

711
00:40:08,965 --> 00:40:13,125
Speaker 5: lucky bastard, because the chances of them finding land when

712
00:40:13,125 --> 00:40:16,165
Speaker 5: they're at sea and in kind of uncharted waters is

713
00:40:16,205 --> 00:40:19,285
Speaker 5: so high, Like they are hopelessly lost and don't know

714
00:40:19,285 --> 00:40:22,365
Speaker 5: where they are. And we feel that in Oh Brother,

715
00:40:22,765 --> 00:40:25,965
Speaker 5: there are points where I find myself just thinking, like

716
00:40:26,085 --> 00:40:31,805
Speaker 5: I know, they're like running desperately across fields and you know,

717
00:40:32,165 --> 00:40:35,925
Speaker 5: through byways, through towns, like wherever they can find themselves

718
00:40:36,005 --> 00:40:38,805
Speaker 5: a car to steal or a pie to steal at

719
00:40:38,805 --> 00:40:41,045
Speaker 5: the same time, I don't know how they end up,

720
00:40:41,245 --> 00:40:43,205
Speaker 5: you know, traveling for days and days and days and

721
00:40:43,365 --> 00:40:47,844
Speaker 5: still winding up coming up on the chain gang, which

722
00:40:47,845 --> 00:40:50,525
Speaker 5: seems like the same chain gang. There is a sort

723
00:40:50,525 --> 00:40:52,885
Speaker 5: of feeling of like, are they going in circles? Are

724
00:40:52,965 --> 00:40:55,725
Speaker 5: we meant to feel they're going in circles? Is this

725
00:40:55,885 --> 00:40:59,045
Speaker 5: an epic linear journey or is this just like are

726
00:40:59,125 --> 00:41:03,725
Speaker 5: they are they wandering around completely lost? So I don't

727
00:41:03,765 --> 00:41:06,605
Speaker 5: think that this is a like a deliberate or important

728
00:41:06,605 --> 00:41:09,805
Speaker 5: thematic connection so much. Is just something I felt pretty

729
00:41:09,885 --> 00:41:13,325
Speaker 5: viscerally in both movies, but with very different effects.

730
00:41:13,685 --> 00:41:16,844
Speaker 2: Where are we Yeah, I guess they are stemied and no, brother,

731
00:41:16,925 --> 00:41:19,165
Speaker 2: we're now in terms of you know, they have to

732
00:41:19,245 --> 00:41:24,525
Speaker 2: get to their destiny before the dam wipes it out,

733
00:41:24,765 --> 00:41:26,965
Speaker 2: uh so uh, but.

734
00:41:26,685 --> 00:41:29,605
Speaker 4: But actually getting there, knowing where to go, having all

735
00:41:29,605 --> 00:41:32,445
Speaker 4: these little obstacles in their way, some some so far

736
00:41:32,525 --> 00:41:34,565
Speaker 4: off course that you you know that you do end

737
00:41:34,685 --> 00:41:38,045
Speaker 4: up in you know, a similar situation is with Odysseus,

738
00:41:38,085 --> 00:41:41,364
Speaker 4: where they're they're traveling and who knows what direction and

739
00:41:41,405 --> 00:41:44,085
Speaker 4: to where, and you know, how how in the world

740
00:41:44,125 --> 00:41:44,485
Speaker 4: are they going?

741
00:41:44,525 --> 00:41:47,405
Speaker 2: To ever what direction even is home, but they just

742
00:41:47,445 --> 00:41:49,925
Speaker 2: keep kind of traveling until they find it. I guess

743
00:41:50,085 --> 00:41:50,485
Speaker 2: I think.

744
00:41:50,325 --> 00:41:54,485
Speaker 6: You mean on account of their obstacles, Uh, Scott, Yes,

745
00:41:57,405 --> 00:42:03,085
Speaker 6: But oh brother has a really like specific rhythm of

746
00:42:03,125 --> 00:42:06,005
Speaker 6: because like it, we are in a like a fairly

747
00:42:06,525 --> 00:42:10,085
Speaker 6: small geographic space, so we're kind of like, rather than

748
00:42:10,125 --> 00:42:12,565
Speaker 6: going from island to island like in the Odyssey, we're

749
00:42:12,605 --> 00:42:14,965
Speaker 6: just kind of like going from incident to incident. What

750
00:42:15,085 --> 00:42:16,645
Speaker 6: was really interesting to me to know it was the

751
00:42:17,245 --> 00:42:20,765
Speaker 6: bonfire sequences at night when they're like camping out at night,

752
00:42:20,805 --> 00:42:24,685
Speaker 6: and there was like kind of this consistent returning to

753
00:42:25,365 --> 00:42:28,245
Speaker 6: this same type of scene of them around the fire,

754
00:42:28,685 --> 00:42:33,205
Speaker 6: and it's sort of the reset between the antics and

755
00:42:32,925 --> 00:42:36,565
Speaker 6: the eventful things that happen, you know, and there's some

756
00:42:37,005 --> 00:42:40,364
Speaker 6: really nice just hanging around the fire, especially once they

757
00:42:40,405 --> 00:42:43,445
Speaker 6: meet up with Tommy and he's singing and stuff. It's

758
00:42:43,485 --> 00:42:47,165
Speaker 6: not an exact parallel to like Odysseus's men on the boat,

759
00:42:47,285 --> 00:42:49,765
Speaker 6: like going from location to location, but just in terms

760
00:42:49,805 --> 00:42:53,325
Speaker 6: of like the rhythm of the film, it creates kind

761
00:42:53,325 --> 00:42:56,205
Speaker 6: of a wave almost, you know, or peaks and valleys

762
00:42:56,405 --> 00:43:00,365
Speaker 6: of action and rest, action and rest that works really

763
00:43:00,405 --> 00:43:02,205
Speaker 6: well for the pace of a journey.

764
00:43:02,845 --> 00:43:04,964
Speaker 5: One of the parallels here that I kind of find

765
00:43:05,045 --> 00:43:08,885
Speaker 5: interesting is that both of these journeys are complicated in

766
00:43:08,925 --> 00:43:14,245
Speaker 5: a way by our protagonist's choices, like a departure. That

767
00:43:14,765 --> 00:43:18,924
Speaker 5: I found really interesting in Nolan's Odyssey is that when

768
00:43:18,925 --> 00:43:22,205
Speaker 5: they blind the Cyclops in order to escape, it's very

769
00:43:22,285 --> 00:43:27,565
Speaker 5: much presented as you know, a necessity for survival. They

770
00:43:27,645 --> 00:43:31,245
Speaker 5: do what they have to do, and Odysseus doesn't turn

771
00:43:31,365 --> 00:43:34,205
Speaker 5: back and give a false name to the Cyclops in

772
00:43:34,445 --> 00:43:38,525
Speaker 5: kind of a spirit of treachery and trickery. You know,

773
00:43:38,565 --> 00:43:42,325
Speaker 5: he doesn't brag about you know who has blinded you

774
00:43:42,725 --> 00:43:45,485
Speaker 5: and tell him it was no man. There's a lack

775
00:43:45,685 --> 00:43:48,245
Speaker 5: of hubris there that you know. To me, one of

776
00:43:48,245 --> 00:43:51,245
Speaker 5: the things that kind of defines that beat of the

777
00:43:51,245 --> 00:43:56,325
Speaker 5: Odyssey is Odysseus's like pride in the gambit that he

778
00:43:56,445 --> 00:43:59,565
Speaker 5: came up with, and he in a way he's mocking

779
00:43:59,605 --> 00:44:02,605
Speaker 5: this creature that he's just blinded. Nolan just kind of

780
00:44:02,885 --> 00:44:06,605
Speaker 5: drops that aside. We get a pretty strong sense of

781
00:44:06,885 --> 00:44:12,165
Speaker 5: hubris from Ulysses Everett McGill and his confidence that you know,

782
00:44:12,245 --> 00:44:15,325
Speaker 5: he doesn't need book learning to practice law. He doesn't

783
00:44:15,405 --> 00:44:19,285
Speaker 5: need experience to sell bibles. He also does not recognize

784
00:44:19,285 --> 00:44:22,005
Speaker 5: a threat when it's standing in front of him, having

785
00:44:22,125 --> 00:44:26,205
Speaker 5: just clubbed his compatriot upside the hit and coming for him.

786
00:44:26,845 --> 00:44:31,404
Speaker 5: He is a very hubristic character, and he's set upon

787
00:44:31,485 --> 00:44:35,125
Speaker 5: this particular epic journey through fault of his own, you know,

788
00:44:35,245 --> 00:44:38,965
Speaker 5: through the bad choices that he made. So I feel

789
00:44:38,965 --> 00:44:41,045
Speaker 5: like that's something that a brother has in common with

790
00:44:41,125 --> 00:44:44,445
Speaker 5: kind of the classic version of Odysseus, but maybe not

791
00:44:44,645 --> 00:44:50,085
Speaker 5: with the version here. I'm not sure what Nolan's Odysseus

792
00:44:50,125 --> 00:44:53,525
Speaker 5: could have done differently in order to not anger the

793
00:44:53,565 --> 00:44:56,325
Speaker 5: gods in this case, except you know, die and get eaten.

794
00:44:56,805 --> 00:45:00,725
Speaker 7: And I think in Nolan's he's smart more than Wiy

795
00:45:01,005 --> 00:45:03,525
Speaker 7: like he he comes with the plans and schemes, but

796
00:45:03,565 --> 00:45:05,885
Speaker 7: he's not really trying to trick anybody out of spite

797
00:45:06,165 --> 00:45:09,325
Speaker 7: or you know they're there. It is purely an escape,

798
00:45:09,405 --> 00:45:12,645
Speaker 7: whereas in I think in the in Homer there's certainly

799
00:45:12,645 --> 00:45:15,325
Speaker 7: more of a tatting quality to it. In both versions,

800
00:45:15,325 --> 00:45:17,325
Speaker 7: I ended up feeling kind of bad for the Cyclops.

801
00:45:17,405 --> 00:45:19,205
Speaker 7: To be honest, he just do its.

802
00:45:19,045 --> 00:45:20,565
Speaker 2: Thing, and you do you do?

803
00:45:20,645 --> 00:45:23,005
Speaker 7: In the version two oh no, no, no, no no,

804
00:45:23,005 --> 00:45:27,404
Speaker 7: I mean in both Homer and and OK, yeah no

805
00:45:27,405 --> 00:45:32,765
Speaker 7: no you feel bad about it, no reason, I.

806
00:45:32,725 --> 00:45:35,205
Speaker 6: Mean if you, if you do feel bad at all,

807
00:45:35,245 --> 00:45:39,365
Speaker 6: it's because John Goodman does have a weird ability to

808
00:45:39,645 --> 00:45:43,005
Speaker 6: like bring pathos to even like horrible characters. But it's

809
00:45:43,125 --> 00:45:45,165
Speaker 6: it's pretty tough in this case, I think too.

810
00:45:46,125 --> 00:45:47,205
Speaker 9: Yeah, I don't.

811
00:45:47,325 --> 00:45:49,645
Speaker 5: I don't feel any sense of pathos for him here,

812
00:45:49,765 --> 00:45:53,205
Speaker 5: And in part it's because the character himself isn't trying

813
00:45:53,205 --> 00:45:57,045
Speaker 5: to evoke it, Like he seems very pleased, you know,

814
00:45:57,125 --> 00:45:59,445
Speaker 5: with with his plans. He seems very pleased with his

815
00:45:59,765 --> 00:46:03,925
Speaker 5: physical superiority at lowering these two yahoo's out into the

816
00:46:04,125 --> 00:46:07,645
Speaker 5: uh into the field, getting free extra dinner out of

817
00:46:07,685 --> 00:46:10,645
Speaker 5: them second lunch, I guess, and then clubbing them upside

818
00:46:10,645 --> 00:46:13,765
Speaker 5: the head and taking their money. Like there's nothing that

819
00:46:13,805 --> 00:46:17,725
Speaker 5: we get from him to indicate like a sadness or

820
00:46:17,845 --> 00:46:21,085
Speaker 5: a loss that would that would excuse these behaviors. This

821
00:46:21,165 --> 00:46:23,605
Speaker 5: is just what he does, and he seems pretty pleased

822
00:46:23,605 --> 00:46:26,805
Speaker 5: with it. So I can't sympathize with the cyclops here.

823
00:46:27,085 --> 00:46:31,844
Speaker 5: I feel like Nolan's cyclops is unknowable, you know, he is,

824
00:46:32,125 --> 00:46:35,445
Speaker 5: He's not a large man. He is a creature, a

825
00:46:35,485 --> 00:46:39,045
Speaker 5: creature of like unknown provenance that does come across as

826
00:46:39,285 --> 00:46:42,125
Speaker 5: something that might have been like sired by a god

827
00:46:42,285 --> 00:46:45,605
Speaker 5: on who knows what. And I feel sympathy for anything

828
00:46:45,645 --> 00:46:49,085
Speaker 5: that has its eye poked out with a pointy, flaming spear,

829
00:46:49,325 --> 00:46:53,405
Speaker 5: because that sounds terrible. But again, I really can't fault

830
00:46:53,525 --> 00:46:57,765
Speaker 5: the the ithacns the soldiers for doing that because they

831
00:46:57,925 --> 00:46:59,325
Speaker 5: don't want to get killed and eaten.

832
00:46:59,525 --> 00:47:02,965
Speaker 6: I was talking last week about how watching O Brother

833
00:47:03,085 --> 00:47:05,765
Speaker 6: through the context of the Odyssey, it sort of primes

834
00:47:05,805 --> 00:47:09,405
Speaker 6: you to find like sort of like little micro connections

835
00:47:09,445 --> 00:47:12,245
Speaker 6: that may or may not be purposeful. But talking about

836
00:47:12,245 --> 00:47:16,765
Speaker 6: the cyclops, one of those I thought of here was

837
00:47:16,965 --> 00:47:20,845
Speaker 6: the like the soldiers escaping by pretending to be she

838
00:47:22,005 --> 00:47:25,125
Speaker 6: I felt an echo of that in the Clan rally

839
00:47:25,205 --> 00:47:28,765
Speaker 6: scene where Big Dan reappears with only one eye cut

840
00:47:28,845 --> 00:47:31,965
Speaker 6: cut out of his mask. But that are our trio.

841
00:47:32,445 --> 00:47:35,805
Speaker 6: You know, they steel robes, so they are disguising themselves

842
00:47:35,845 --> 00:47:39,005
Speaker 6: to try to hide from the cyclops there.

843
00:47:38,845 --> 00:47:42,605
Speaker 4: So you know they classic is a classic physical comedy

844
00:47:42,685 --> 00:47:44,685
Speaker 4: trope of like shrubs kind.

845
00:47:44,565 --> 00:47:47,965
Speaker 2: Of like shivering as they're changing.

846
00:47:47,725 --> 00:47:50,844
Speaker 4: Into the Uh into the garb of the person that

847
00:47:50,845 --> 00:47:52,364
Speaker 4: they've just taken off of someone else.

848
00:47:52,765 --> 00:47:53,325
Speaker 2: Good stuff.

849
00:47:53,685 --> 00:47:56,245
Speaker 4: Maybe this is a nice window into talking about this

850
00:47:56,325 --> 00:47:59,005
Speaker 4: if we were talking about you know, escape and you

851
00:47:59,005 --> 00:48:01,685
Speaker 4: know what options they really have in terms of even

852
00:48:01,685 --> 00:48:04,605
Speaker 4: trying to negotiate a situation like that. But we haven't

853
00:48:04,605 --> 00:48:08,325
Speaker 4: talked about one of my favorite sequences in all of

854
00:48:08,365 --> 00:48:11,165
Speaker 4: the Odyssey, which is the one with Samantha Morton as

855
00:48:11,405 --> 00:48:15,805
Speaker 4: uh was Circe, is that the name is yeah and

856
00:48:15,925 --> 00:48:19,325
Speaker 4: just and just about and how that is how you

857
00:48:19,525 --> 00:48:24,085
Speaker 4: get to a point where Odysse's can actually talk and

858
00:48:24,125 --> 00:48:27,725
Speaker 4: negotiate and advocate for his men in a way that

859
00:48:27,765 --> 00:48:31,885
Speaker 4: he doesn't in any other situation. Like he's a different

860
00:48:32,005 --> 00:48:35,085
Speaker 4: kind of leadership. And there's something kind of touching I

861
00:48:35,085 --> 00:48:39,005
Speaker 4: guess about his acknowledgment of her perspective and what she's

862
00:48:39,405 --> 00:48:41,844
Speaker 4: kind of going through and being able to kind of

863
00:48:41,885 --> 00:48:43,765
Speaker 4: them being able to kind of see each other and

864
00:48:44,325 --> 00:48:46,965
Speaker 4: kind of come to this moment of grace together.

865
00:48:47,005 --> 00:48:50,925
Speaker 2: It's a nice shift from you know, other conflicts I

866
00:48:50,925 --> 00:48:54,245
Speaker 2: guess that we have in them in this story.

867
00:48:54,445 --> 00:48:59,765
Speaker 5: Shout out to Madelon Miller's novel Circe, which is terrific.

868
00:49:00,445 --> 00:49:03,445
Speaker 5: Read it recently for the first time, not in relationship

869
00:49:03,485 --> 00:49:06,045
Speaker 5: to this movie at all, but just because it's been

870
00:49:06,085 --> 00:49:08,445
Speaker 5: on my tea read for a very long time. It

871
00:49:08,445 --> 00:49:13,285
Speaker 5: will make you see Circe very differently, and in my mind,

872
00:49:14,445 --> 00:49:16,925
Speaker 5: this version of the character is more or less that

873
00:49:17,045 --> 00:49:19,565
Speaker 5: version of the character. It explains a lot about her

874
00:49:19,605 --> 00:49:23,245
Speaker 5: behavior way that moment when the soldiers are asked to

875
00:49:23,325 --> 00:49:25,485
Speaker 5: leave their armor and weapons out back and they look

876
00:49:25,525 --> 00:49:29,965
Speaker 5: out back and just see a field of slowly disappearing

877
00:49:30,005 --> 00:49:33,965
Speaker 5: into the grass and disintegrating like an army's worth of

878
00:49:34,165 --> 00:49:37,805
Speaker 5: arms and weapons, and then they do it anyway. Man,

879
00:49:37,965 --> 00:49:40,725
Speaker 5: What a moment. But talking about Circe kind of brings

880
00:49:40,765 --> 00:49:43,325
Speaker 5: us to a point that I really wanted to explore here,

881
00:49:43,445 --> 00:49:45,924
Speaker 5: which is, in talking about the Odyssey, we just really

882
00:49:45,965 --> 00:49:49,965
Speaker 5: haven't talked about Antonas. Robert Pattinson's character, kind of the

883
00:49:50,045 --> 00:49:53,404
Speaker 5: lead of the suitors, certainly the biggest coward among them,

884
00:49:53,405 --> 00:49:56,045
Speaker 5: but also kind of the biggest leader, perpetually trying to

885
00:49:56,725 --> 00:50:00,045
Speaker 5: direct traffic to get other people to do all the work,

886
00:50:00,285 --> 00:50:04,005
Speaker 5: making sure that he's taking the least risk. Just a

887
00:50:04,085 --> 00:50:07,965
Speaker 5: real snake of a man, and seemingly the only one

888
00:50:07,965 --> 00:50:10,245
Speaker 5: of the suitors to come to Penelope and try to

889
00:50:11,125 --> 00:50:14,725
Speaker 5: kind of clozen her into believing that he's he's just

890
00:50:14,805 --> 00:50:19,365
Speaker 5: a nice guy, y'all. His parallel, I suppose in Oh Brother,

891
00:50:20,045 --> 00:50:23,565
Speaker 5: to the degree that that there is one, isn't Waldrip,

892
00:50:23,885 --> 00:50:27,925
Speaker 5: who you know, is the is almost a background character.

893
00:50:28,005 --> 00:50:30,565
Speaker 5: You know, he's a function of the plot, but apart

894
00:50:30,565 --> 00:50:35,365
Speaker 5: from being able to best Ulysses in a Woolworth's punching contest,

895
00:50:35,565 --> 00:50:38,245
Speaker 5: he's just not that much of a character. I kind

896
00:50:38,245 --> 00:50:41,645
Speaker 5: of wonder if a better parallel for him is the sheriff,

897
00:50:42,045 --> 00:50:45,364
Speaker 5: who is kind of the big central villain of the

898
00:50:45,405 --> 00:50:48,645
Speaker 5: movie to the degree that it has or needs one,

899
00:50:49,005 --> 00:50:52,325
Speaker 5: And he is a character who seems, you know, more

900
00:50:52,365 --> 00:50:56,285
Speaker 5: physically brave and confident, but also is you know, using

901
00:50:56,325 --> 00:51:00,005
Speaker 5: other people to get his way, is very much uninterested

902
00:51:00,045 --> 00:51:03,485
Speaker 5: in the law or what other people want so much

903
00:51:03,485 --> 00:51:06,045
Speaker 5: as he gets to destroy things. He just goes around

904
00:51:06,045 --> 00:51:10,484
Speaker 5: burning down people's barns in order to flush people out,

905
00:51:11,365 --> 00:51:14,445
Speaker 5: which you know, leaves to a lot of damn, we're

906
00:51:14,445 --> 00:51:18,445
Speaker 5: in a tight spot, so you know there are there

907
00:51:18,445 --> 00:51:21,364
Speaker 5: are kind of a lot of sub villains in both

908
00:51:21,405 --> 00:51:22,365
Speaker 5: of these movies.

909
00:51:22,685 --> 00:51:24,845
Speaker 4: Well, the sheriff is the sheriff is neither a suitor

910
00:51:24,885 --> 00:51:30,925
Speaker 4: nor bonafide thought Sheriff nice. Maybe so Waldrop is I

911
00:51:30,925 --> 00:51:33,685
Speaker 4: think our our suitor here. I'm glad you brought brought

912
00:51:33,725 --> 00:51:37,365
Speaker 4: up Pattinson because he's kind I don't know if the

913
00:51:37,445 --> 00:51:40,845
Speaker 4: scene's back in that sphere, back in that back home,

914
00:51:41,005 --> 00:51:44,165
Speaker 4: really have the Papa do without that character. He's a true,

915
00:51:44,605 --> 00:51:47,925
Speaker 4: truly kind of juicy villain that we're just we kind

916
00:51:47,925 --> 00:51:50,605
Speaker 4: of cannot wait that we really wait an entire movie

917
00:51:51,325 --> 00:51:54,765
Speaker 4: to get his glorious come up. And so I think

918
00:51:55,005 --> 00:51:57,085
Speaker 4: I was impressed by him in this in this film,

919
00:51:57,125 --> 00:51:59,725
Speaker 4: I guess he. I guess he was inspired by James

920
00:51:59,725 --> 00:52:04,125
Speaker 4: Woods's character in Casino, which.

921
00:52:03,085 --> 00:52:05,085
Speaker 7: Is kind of like, all right, he does not the

922
00:52:05,165 --> 00:52:08,245
Speaker 7: one scene where he makes a pretty good case for

923
00:52:08,325 --> 00:52:11,924
Speaker 7: himself too, which he immediately underminds by going to mac

924
00:52:12,005 --> 00:52:15,245
Speaker 7: on Miaco's character. But but he does, you know, he

925
00:52:15,285 --> 00:52:19,245
Speaker 7: does put a pretty persuasive argument out there for for

926
00:52:19,405 --> 00:52:20,765
Speaker 7: why he should be the one.

927
00:52:21,125 --> 00:52:23,525
Speaker 5: Yeah, if only he wasn't just such a weasel. And

928
00:52:23,565 --> 00:52:26,685
Speaker 5: you know, she's seen Penalope, has seen a lot more

929
00:52:26,725 --> 00:52:29,445
Speaker 5: of him than we have, and possibly knows that he's

930
00:52:29,445 --> 00:52:31,805
Speaker 5: a weasel. It's possible that he's come around and tried

931
00:52:31,805 --> 00:52:35,765
Speaker 5: this before, he's tried other things, or she's just you know,

932
00:52:35,885 --> 00:52:40,045
Speaker 5: paying attention and has seen like how he operates. You know,

933
00:52:40,165 --> 00:52:43,245
Speaker 5: this is somebody who's perfectly willing to dump a dog

934
00:52:43,325 --> 00:52:46,085
Speaker 5: on a dung heap, but then is coming around, you know,

935
00:52:46,125 --> 00:52:50,325
Speaker 5: with his his nice guyline. So it's pretty obvious who

936
00:52:50,365 --> 00:52:52,765
Speaker 5: he is, and it's pretty obvious how she feels about

937
00:52:53,005 --> 00:52:54,485
Speaker 5: kind of all of them collectively.

938
00:52:54,925 --> 00:53:00,365
Speaker 2: And yet yet not great vetting of Mia Goth What happened,

939
00:53:00,405 --> 00:53:02,805
Speaker 2: what happened there? What broke down in the hiring process.

940
00:53:03,165 --> 00:53:05,205
Speaker 5: Well, it's very hard to check the internet to see

941
00:53:05,205 --> 00:53:08,565
Speaker 5: if they've you know, been posting pictures of themselves with

942
00:53:08,645 --> 00:53:12,165
Speaker 5: the suitors, you know, at the beach when they're sneaking

943
00:53:12,205 --> 00:53:13,245
Speaker 5: around on their days off.

944
00:53:13,645 --> 00:53:15,285
Speaker 7: I think one way to talk about one thing we

945
00:53:15,325 --> 00:53:17,365
Speaker 7: want to talk about here is a casside of Travis

946
00:53:17,365 --> 00:53:20,085
Speaker 7: Scott as the bart who gets the first line of

947
00:53:20,205 --> 00:53:24,444
Speaker 7: Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey and and uh. Nolan has said

948
00:53:24,445 --> 00:53:27,364
Speaker 7: it's because he wanted to tie you know, a very

949
00:53:27,565 --> 00:53:30,005
Speaker 7: current oral tradition, which which is hip hop and rap,

950
00:53:30,405 --> 00:53:33,005
Speaker 7: with the very old oral tradition, which is the or

951
00:53:33,085 --> 00:53:36,325
Speaker 7: tradition from which the Odyssey emerged. I think that's a

952
00:53:36,445 --> 00:53:40,845
Speaker 7: really smart and well done without being overdone. He's not

953
00:53:40,885 --> 00:53:45,045
Speaker 7: making he's not making the Americ equivalent of of Hamilton

954
00:53:45,165 --> 00:53:45,605
Speaker 7: or anything.

955
00:53:45,925 --> 00:53:46,045
Speaker 3: Uh.

956
00:53:46,485 --> 00:53:49,085
Speaker 7: But we kind of get that in in O Brother,

957
00:53:49,125 --> 00:53:52,005
Speaker 7: Where art Thou too? Where we have all these these

958
00:53:52,085 --> 00:53:55,405
Speaker 7: folk traditions that are I guess you can say it's

959
00:53:55,485 --> 00:53:57,165
Speaker 7: kind of being the equivalent of written down in the

960
00:53:57,205 --> 00:54:00,565
Speaker 7: sense that they're recorded, but they're being passed around. They're

961
00:54:00,565 --> 00:54:04,685
Speaker 7: becoming a shared culture for everyone in this region, much

962
00:54:04,685 --> 00:54:08,325
Speaker 7: as like these stories of Odysseus and and the fall

963
00:54:08,405 --> 00:54:12,525
Speaker 7: of Troy are becoming widespread in a way, you know,

964
00:54:12,565 --> 00:54:15,285
Speaker 7: even without a disease's presence there. I guess he's in

965
00:54:15,325 --> 00:54:17,005
Speaker 7: a way he's mass communication.

966
00:54:17,525 --> 00:54:17,605
Speaker 3: Uh.

967
00:54:19,725 --> 00:54:23,765
Speaker 5: And he's also drawn on, you know, mass communication otherwise,

968
00:54:23,805 --> 00:54:27,005
Speaker 5: you know, because he is telling he is not telling

969
00:54:27,125 --> 00:54:30,765
Speaker 5: the tale of the king of this place. He's telling

970
00:54:30,805 --> 00:54:34,285
Speaker 5: the tale of the wile Odysseus, who who ended the

971
00:54:34,285 --> 00:54:37,485
Speaker 5: Trojan War. You know, this is very clearly a story

972
00:54:37,525 --> 00:54:40,844
Speaker 5: that's been passed around a lot already, to the point

973
00:54:40,885 --> 00:54:43,525
Speaker 5: where mentalais it just kind of says, you know, you already,

974
00:54:43,565 --> 00:54:46,045
Speaker 5: you already know this story. You've already heard this story

975
00:54:46,365 --> 00:54:48,645
Speaker 5: because the assumption is like this is the song that

976
00:54:48,685 --> 00:54:51,565
Speaker 5: the birds are singing. Everybody's heard it, of course, so

977
00:54:52,525 --> 00:54:55,325
Speaker 5: you know, we we, as I said in the first half,

978
00:54:55,365 --> 00:54:58,725
Speaker 5: we have this tale that has preceded him home. And

979
00:54:58,765 --> 00:55:00,845
Speaker 5: it's the closest thing to mass media we have because

980
00:55:00,845 --> 00:55:04,165
Speaker 5: it's it's everywhere. It's in other kingdoms, it's in other

981
00:55:04,365 --> 00:55:07,445
Speaker 5: king halls. And yet we have the moment where Penelope

982
00:55:07,725 --> 00:55:09,844
Speaker 5: hears it starting up again, and it's just like, no,

983
00:55:10,125 --> 00:55:15,405
Speaker 5: not that story. I'm tired of hearing and being reminded

984
00:55:15,405 --> 00:55:17,725
Speaker 5: that my husband isn't here by hearing this story about

985
00:55:17,725 --> 00:55:19,925
Speaker 5: how smarty is that everybody's telling all the time.

986
00:55:20,685 --> 00:55:24,645
Speaker 6: You know, Odysseus's journey has been, you know, being told

987
00:55:24,765 --> 00:55:27,565
Speaker 6: in all of these songs that our reference and you know,

988
00:55:27,725 --> 00:55:29,885
Speaker 6: sort of the odyssey itself is an epic poem, is

989
00:55:30,085 --> 00:55:32,165
Speaker 6: you know, kind of a big song in a way.

990
00:55:32,765 --> 00:55:35,165
Speaker 6: But if you think about it, Man of Constant Sorrow

991
00:55:35,325 --> 00:55:38,725
Speaker 6: is kind of like a little Odyssey in micro and

992
00:55:38,765 --> 00:55:42,605
Speaker 6: its lyrics. You know, I've did farewell to Old Kentucky,

993
00:55:42,685 --> 00:55:45,685
Speaker 6: the place where I was born and raised. For six years,

994
00:55:45,725 --> 00:55:48,685
Speaker 6: I've been in trouble, no pleasure here on earth. I'll

995
00:55:48,765 --> 00:55:52,005
Speaker 6: find this world. I'm bound to ramble. I don't have

996
00:55:52,045 --> 00:55:54,045
Speaker 6: all the lyrics up in front of me because it

997
00:55:54,125 --> 00:55:56,445
Speaker 6: crashed my computer when I tried to do that. But

998
00:55:57,005 --> 00:55:58,285
Speaker 6: you see what I'm going for here.

999
00:55:58,325 --> 00:56:02,925
Speaker 5: You know, I got no friends help me because they

1000
00:56:02,925 --> 00:56:03,605
Speaker 5: have all died.

1001
00:56:03,605 --> 00:56:05,845
Speaker 7: But along the journey you're the podcaster.

1002
00:56:08,805 --> 00:56:12,364
Speaker 6: Yeah, so it all just it goes back to what

1003
00:56:12,445 --> 00:56:15,645
Speaker 6: I said last week about oh brother art, those sort

1004
00:56:15,685 --> 00:56:18,725
Speaker 6: of strongest connection to the Odyssey outside of all the

1005
00:56:18,725 --> 00:56:24,245
Speaker 6: little plot elements, is this idea of tales of men's

1006
00:56:24,325 --> 00:56:30,205
Speaker 6: childs and tribulations being passed down in spoken or sung form.

1007
00:56:30,685 --> 00:56:35,325
Speaker 6: And you know, the soggy bottom boys our bards of this,

1008
00:56:35,965 --> 00:56:38,245
Speaker 6: even if one of them happens to be our hero too.

1009
00:56:38,365 --> 00:56:40,725
Speaker 5: I feel like, in addition to that, you know, we're

1010
00:56:40,765 --> 00:56:42,765
Speaker 5: running along, as we so often are when we're talking

1011
00:56:42,805 --> 00:56:45,685
Speaker 5: about big monumental films that we have strong feelings about,

1012
00:56:46,085 --> 00:56:48,525
Speaker 5: we should just mention the degree to which both of

1013
00:56:48,565 --> 00:56:52,045
Speaker 5: these movies deal with children and legacy. You know, the

1014
00:56:52,085 --> 00:56:55,125
Speaker 5: idea of who is the next generation, how do they

1015
00:56:55,165 --> 00:56:57,965
Speaker 5: remember us, what do they know about us? How much

1016
00:56:57,965 --> 00:56:59,925
Speaker 5: of it is true? How much of it is legend.

1017
00:57:00,365 --> 00:57:02,045
Speaker 5: How do they feel about us? You know, both of

1018
00:57:02,085 --> 00:57:06,005
Speaker 5: these films tap into that pretty heavily, and both of

1019
00:57:06,045 --> 00:57:09,125
Speaker 5: them do kind of contend with faith and religion and

1020
00:57:09,405 --> 00:57:12,965
Speaker 5: how humanity interacts with gods, what they get out of

1021
00:57:12,965 --> 00:57:18,365
Speaker 5: that relationship, how different that relationship is in Foxholes, as

1022
00:57:18,365 --> 00:57:21,325
Speaker 5: it were. You know, when people are in danger, they

1023
00:57:21,325 --> 00:57:25,245
Speaker 5: see religion as very different. And I think especially in

1024
00:57:25,365 --> 00:57:28,765
Speaker 5: No Brother, there's sort of an ongoing feeling that, you know,

1025
00:57:28,805 --> 00:57:31,885
Speaker 5: because of the depression the privation that people are living in,

1026
00:57:32,245 --> 00:57:36,285
Speaker 5: they're living in a constant sort of place of danger,

1027
00:57:36,405 --> 00:57:39,045
Speaker 5: and so they're drawing on all of this old gospel

1028
00:57:39,125 --> 00:57:42,525
Speaker 5: movies in sorrow or constant sorrow. But I feel like

1029
00:57:42,565 --> 00:57:45,605
Speaker 5: the one thing we really need to explore before we

1030
00:57:46,445 --> 00:57:50,045
Speaker 5: call it a day an end to this epic journey

1031
00:57:50,085 --> 00:57:52,885
Speaker 5: of ours, is the degree to which both of these

1032
00:57:52,925 --> 00:57:57,125
Speaker 5: movies deal with ends of eras Keith, you added this

1033
00:57:57,165 --> 00:58:01,725
Speaker 5: to the connections list pretty late, and it does underline

1034
00:58:01,765 --> 00:58:04,125
Speaker 5: the fact that we really haven't talked about the kind

1035
00:58:04,125 --> 00:58:07,925
Speaker 5: of like big final theme of the Odyssey. So I'm

1036
00:58:07,965 --> 00:58:10,925
Speaker 5: curious what you're thinking about how both of these movies

1037
00:58:11,365 --> 00:58:13,045
Speaker 5: touch on the ends of eras well.

1038
00:58:13,725 --> 00:58:15,685
Speaker 7: We'll start with their brother or art that which which is.

1039
00:58:16,525 --> 00:58:18,085
Speaker 7: I thought, you know, one thing I think about it

1040
00:58:18,165 --> 00:58:20,405
Speaker 7: is you have the flood that sort of like eliminates

1041
00:58:20,405 --> 00:58:23,445
Speaker 7: a whole you know, a whole area in the name

1042
00:58:23,445 --> 00:58:26,485
Speaker 7: of progress, in the name of bringing electricity. And we

1043
00:58:26,525 --> 00:58:29,325
Speaker 7: see at the end we see lissies walking by a

1044
00:58:29,365 --> 00:58:32,605
Speaker 7: billboard about this this whole new age that's coming in.

1045
00:58:32,765 --> 00:58:35,085
Speaker 7: But it kind of goes a little bit beyond that

1046
00:58:35,565 --> 00:58:38,125
Speaker 7: as well. I think one thing that's doing with music

1047
00:58:38,325 --> 00:58:42,005
Speaker 7: is there's this you know, tremendous appetite for old timy music,

1048
00:58:42,125 --> 00:58:45,325
Speaker 7: right and it's like the last moment when this stuff

1049
00:58:45,405 --> 00:58:48,005
Speaker 7: is is just going to be you know, an oral

1050
00:58:48,045 --> 00:58:51,765
Speaker 7: tradition or like passed out a folk tradition passed around people.

1051
00:58:52,165 --> 00:58:53,925
Speaker 7: It becomes sort of pop culture in a way. I

1052
00:58:53,925 --> 00:58:55,965
Speaker 7: think we're we've watched, I mean, we've we've laughed a

1053
00:58:56,005 --> 00:58:58,005
Speaker 7: couple of lines about the like the weird mass communicating

1054
00:58:58,005 --> 00:59:00,245
Speaker 7: the line. But but it is going to change everything

1055
00:59:00,285 --> 00:59:03,525
Speaker 7: in terms of like how we consume art, what you know,

1056
00:59:03,565 --> 00:59:06,005
Speaker 7: whether or not art is you know, confined to a

1057
00:59:06,045 --> 00:59:08,845
Speaker 7: certain region too, like this could you know this is

1058
00:59:08,885 --> 00:59:11,205
Speaker 7: a regional hit? But but soon you know, with the

1059
00:59:11,205 --> 00:59:14,205
Speaker 7: airplace and like this could be a national hit as well.

1060
00:59:14,245 --> 00:59:16,645
Speaker 7: I mean, the very fact that we're talking about, you know,

1061
00:59:16,845 --> 00:59:19,485
Speaker 7: we're talking about the soundtrack becoming this this passed around

1062
00:59:19,845 --> 00:59:22,685
Speaker 7: cultural phenomenon is is sort of like what happens in

1063
00:59:22,725 --> 00:59:27,485
Speaker 7: the film itself in a way where this this these

1064
00:59:27,525 --> 00:59:31,525
Speaker 7: specific cultures get you know, recorded and passed around, and

1065
00:59:31,525 --> 00:59:34,165
Speaker 7: also like you know, it leads a tremendous mixing of

1066
00:59:34,445 --> 00:59:36,085
Speaker 7: cultures as well. I think there's a little bit of

1067
00:59:36,085 --> 00:59:38,565
Speaker 7: optimism at the end of Our Brother War at that,

1068
00:59:38,645 --> 00:59:40,805
Speaker 7: whereas I think at the end of Nolan's the Odyssey

1069
00:59:40,845 --> 00:59:45,005
Speaker 7: they're just really not h and I really kind of

1070
00:59:45,645 --> 00:59:49,565
Speaker 7: want a tiptoe around the spoiler, the spoilerness of it all,

1071
00:59:49,845 --> 00:59:51,565
Speaker 7: but directly the right to what we've been talking about

1072
00:59:51,605 --> 00:59:53,965
Speaker 7: about the oral tradition and whether or not what is

1073
00:59:54,005 --> 00:59:57,205
Speaker 7: passed aroung orally you know, what's written down and what's

1074
00:59:57,285 --> 01:00:00,645
Speaker 7: like going on in various cultures at various points when

1075
01:00:00,765 --> 01:00:06,285
Speaker 7: when what when writing versus the orld tradition dominates over

1076
01:00:06,325 --> 01:00:08,805
Speaker 7: the other. I think it's just really interesting stuff in there.

1077
01:00:08,925 --> 01:00:12,205
Speaker 7: I think we really both these films leave their characters

1078
01:00:12,765 --> 01:00:15,765
Speaker 7: on the cusp of new eras and with a lot

1079
01:00:15,805 --> 01:00:18,765
Speaker 7: of uncertainty and but at least a little bit I

1080
01:00:18,765 --> 01:00:21,005
Speaker 7: think of optimism and a Brother were art, though.

1081
01:00:21,245 --> 01:00:23,885
Speaker 5: I feel like with a Brother the end of an

1082
01:00:23,885 --> 01:00:26,045
Speaker 5: era that we're seeing is, you know, the end of

1083
01:00:26,085 --> 01:00:30,525
Speaker 5: an era of poverty and separation of you know, the

1084
01:00:31,045 --> 01:00:36,965
Speaker 5: distance across the state being a tremendous, unsurpassable distance that

1085
01:00:37,045 --> 01:00:39,685
Speaker 5: takes days and days to transit an onto a more

1086
01:00:39,805 --> 01:00:43,285
Speaker 5: modern era. You know, the advent of electricity is going

1087
01:00:43,365 --> 01:00:45,405
Speaker 5: to be a good thing, and eventually the depression is

1088
01:00:45,405 --> 01:00:49,685
Speaker 5: going to end politically, at least, you know, the the

1089
01:00:49,805 --> 01:00:52,685
Speaker 5: return of Pappy does not suggest a whole lot of

1090
01:00:52,685 --> 01:00:55,045
Speaker 5: reform going to be going on and that people are

1091
01:00:55,085 --> 01:00:56,965
Speaker 5: going to have a better time of it, but we

1092
01:00:57,005 --> 01:00:58,445
Speaker 5: know happier days are ahead.

1093
01:00:59,445 --> 01:01:05,765
Speaker 8: With the Odyssey, I see Odysseus saying that this is

1094
01:01:05,765 --> 01:01:08,805
Speaker 8: a tragedy that the era, you know, the era of

1095
01:01:08,925 --> 01:01:12,205
Speaker 8: Zeus's law has ended. But this movie doesn't give me

1096
01:01:12,205 --> 01:01:14,725
Speaker 8: a whole lot of respect for Zeus's law. This law

1097
01:01:15,765 --> 01:01:20,205
Speaker 8: is presented, at least by Odysseus as a kind of

1098
01:01:20,405 --> 01:01:26,685
Speaker 8: civil and an understanding between people, you know, for truth

1099
01:01:26,725 --> 01:01:27,445
Speaker 8: and generosity.

1100
01:01:27,605 --> 01:01:29,725
Speaker 5: It feels like a very political message, to be a

1101
01:01:29,765 --> 01:01:34,885
Speaker 5: very modern political message, specifically about you know, when you

1102
01:01:35,005 --> 01:01:39,085
Speaker 5: cannot trust people to act in a civil manner, when

1103
01:01:39,165 --> 01:01:42,965
Speaker 5: you can't trust your leaders to tell the truth, when

1104
01:01:42,965 --> 01:01:45,485
Speaker 5: you can't trust people to not be corrupt, to not

1105
01:01:45,565 --> 01:01:47,925
Speaker 5: steal everything they can get their hands on, what does

1106
01:01:47,925 --> 01:01:49,685
Speaker 5: that leave us? Like? Who are we? Who are we

1107
01:01:49,725 --> 01:01:54,045
Speaker 5: as a civilization? That's what I see that movie ultimately asking.

1108
01:01:54,325 --> 01:01:56,085
Speaker 5: But I do struggle a little bit to get that

1109
01:01:56,245 --> 01:02:00,445
Speaker 5: from the end of Zeus's law, which seems to be

1110
01:02:00,485 --> 01:02:05,245
Speaker 5: a law that forbids driving thieves out of your house.

1111
01:02:05,525 --> 01:02:09,605
Speaker 5: You know that that forbids being even slightly rude to

1112
01:02:09,645 --> 01:02:12,725
Speaker 5: people who come into your house and live there for

1113
01:02:12,765 --> 01:02:16,165
Speaker 5: three years, demanding that you feast, that you throw feats

1114
01:02:16,165 --> 01:02:16,845
Speaker 5: for them every night.

1115
01:02:17,365 --> 01:02:20,125
Speaker 7: But self is a corruption of law or zenia, to

1116
01:02:20,205 --> 01:02:20,925
Speaker 7: use the Greek word.

1117
01:02:21,165 --> 01:02:24,805
Speaker 5: And yet it seems like Zeus's law allows for that

1118
01:02:24,885 --> 01:02:27,405
Speaker 5: form of corruption but doesn't allow for anybody to fight

1119
01:02:27,445 --> 01:02:30,005
Speaker 5: back against it. So that's where I get a little

1120
01:02:30,085 --> 01:02:33,965
Speaker 5: confused about exactly why it's the tragedy that we're ending

1121
01:02:34,085 --> 01:02:37,805
Speaker 5: this particular era. We're ending an era that puts the

1122
01:02:37,845 --> 01:02:40,285
Speaker 5: suitors on the right side of the law and puts

1123
01:02:40,325 --> 01:02:42,205
Speaker 5: the rightful King of Ithaca on the wrong side of

1124
01:02:42,245 --> 01:02:42,605
Speaker 5: the law.

1125
01:02:42,685 --> 01:02:46,085
Speaker 7: But the ideals are good. I mean, the founding principles

1126
01:02:46,085 --> 01:02:48,765
Speaker 7: are not just good, they're noble.

1127
01:02:49,205 --> 01:02:54,645
Speaker 5: Agreed, the principles are noble. You know, honesty in politics

1128
01:02:54,765 --> 01:02:58,805
Speaker 5: is noble. Not being a klansman is pretty noble. Not

1129
01:02:58,925 --> 01:03:02,005
Speaker 5: being pappy either also quite noble. There's a lot of

1130
01:03:02,685 --> 01:03:05,205
Speaker 5: illustration of how to do things wrong in both of

1131
01:03:05,205 --> 01:03:11,125
Speaker 5: these movies, for society, for individuals, for households, for parents,

1132
01:03:11,325 --> 01:03:14,325
Speaker 5: for people on epic journeys. I wish there was a

1133
01:03:14,325 --> 01:03:16,885
Speaker 5: little more in both of them in terms of illustration

1134
01:03:16,885 --> 01:03:17,805
Speaker 5: of how to do things right.

1135
01:03:18,285 --> 01:03:20,605
Speaker 7: I think it's interesting we're finding that ambiguity here too.

1136
01:03:20,605 --> 01:03:22,485
Speaker 7: I think there's a lot of ambiguity. It runs runs

1137
01:03:22,485 --> 01:03:25,445
Speaker 7: through both films, and maybe that's like the final connection

1138
01:03:25,805 --> 01:03:29,165
Speaker 7: to like, these are not films that necessarily give you

1139
01:03:29,925 --> 01:03:33,685
Speaker 7: clear senses of of there's that there's not solid black

1140
01:03:33,685 --> 01:03:37,285
Speaker 7: and white morality in either of these. You know, Odysseus

1141
01:03:37,765 --> 01:03:40,005
Speaker 7: is I think we're coming away thinking Odysseus is a

1142
01:03:40,005 --> 01:03:42,445
Speaker 7: good man. But that's kind of in spite of all

1143
01:03:42,445 --> 01:03:45,685
Speaker 7: we see him do right. I mean, there's there's a

1144
01:03:45,765 --> 01:03:49,125
Speaker 7: whole death kind of trails him, and I would not necessarily.

1145
01:03:49,445 --> 01:03:51,765
Speaker 7: I might look up to him, but I wouldn't I

1146
01:03:51,805 --> 01:03:54,205
Speaker 7: want to be on the same ship with him. That

1147
01:03:54,245 --> 01:03:57,365
Speaker 7: doesn't work out well. And and perhaps the same could

1148
01:03:57,365 --> 01:03:59,805
Speaker 7: be true Ulysses. I don't know what the next chapter

1149
01:03:59,845 --> 01:04:02,925
Speaker 7: of ulysses life is there in In in the South,

1150
01:04:03,125 --> 01:04:05,725
Speaker 7: but I guess I'm hopeful for both.

1151
01:04:06,125 --> 01:04:12,805
Speaker 4: That's why both movies end with the end Ellipses question mark.

1152
01:04:13,285 --> 01:04:15,085
Speaker 7: Overturn in.

1153
01:04:16,605 --> 01:04:18,965
Speaker 5: You know, maybe the big difference between them is in

1154
01:04:19,005 --> 01:04:23,965
Speaker 5: the end, Odysseus judges himself harshly for what he's done,

1155
01:04:24,205 --> 01:04:26,565
Speaker 5: for what he's lost, and for what he feels has

1156
01:04:26,605 --> 01:04:30,405
Speaker 5: been lost through him, and Ulysses seems perfectly happy with

1157
01:04:30,485 --> 01:04:33,725
Speaker 5: the way things have come out. You know, maybe it's

1158
01:04:33,805 --> 01:04:36,725
Speaker 5: just a question of how self aware they are of

1159
01:04:36,725 --> 01:04:40,245
Speaker 5: the harm that they've done, and how determined they are

1160
01:04:41,045 --> 01:04:46,045
Speaker 5: to see themselves in the light that others might see them.

1161
01:04:46,285 --> 01:04:49,045
Speaker 5: Maybe there is an illustration of how to do things well,

1162
01:04:49,125 --> 01:04:53,285
Speaker 5: and if it's criticize yourself too harshly and send yourself

1163
01:04:53,285 --> 01:04:57,205
Speaker 5: into exile, at least that's better than just smugly saying

1164
01:04:57,245 --> 01:05:01,165
Speaker 5: well you know now I'm very clearly bonafide. I don't

1165
01:05:01,205 --> 01:05:04,285
Speaker 5: know if you want to fact check Scott on how

1166
01:05:04,325 --> 01:05:07,485
Speaker 5: these two movies? And you can find Oh Brother, Where

1167
01:05:07,565 --> 01:05:10,925
Speaker 5: Art Thou? Available on DVD and Blu Ray, It's streaming

1168
01:05:10,925 --> 01:05:14,685
Speaker 5: on the Criterion, and it's widely available for digital rental.

1169
01:05:14,885 --> 01:05:17,125
Speaker 5: And The Odyssey is in theaters. Now we'll be right

1170
01:05:17,125 --> 01:05:30,325
Speaker 5: back with your Next Picture Show. Finally, it's time to

1171
01:05:30,325 --> 01:05:32,725
Speaker 5: recommend a film or film related item that compliments this

1172
01:05:32,805 --> 01:05:35,085
Speaker 5: set of episodes. We call it your Next Picture Show

1173
01:05:35,125 --> 01:05:37,085
Speaker 5: in the hopes that it'll put some interesting choices on

1174
01:05:37,125 --> 01:05:39,365
Speaker 5: your radar. Keith, what do you have for us?

1175
01:05:40,445 --> 01:05:44,245
Speaker 7: There's a very easy, very fine supplement to watch if

1176
01:05:44,285 --> 01:05:46,845
Speaker 7: you really enjoy Oh Brother, We're Out though, and specifically

1177
01:05:47,005 --> 01:05:49,565
Speaker 7: the music of Oh Brother, We're at There, which is

1178
01:05:49,605 --> 01:05:52,845
Speaker 7: a concert film directed by Nick Dabb and are you

1179
01:05:52,885 --> 01:05:55,605
Speaker 7: know the reliable team of Chris Hedshist and Da Pinnabaker

1180
01:05:55,885 --> 01:06:01,725
Speaker 7: called Down from the Mountain, which fairly straightforwardly but effectively

1181
01:06:01,805 --> 01:06:06,645
Speaker 7: films a concert performance at the Ryman Auditorium, former home

1182
01:06:06,965 --> 01:06:10,725
Speaker 7: of the Grand Ole Opry in Nashville, Tennessee, And you're

1183
01:06:10,725 --> 01:06:12,445
Speaker 7: going to see you know, it includes a lot of

1184
01:06:12,605 --> 01:06:14,565
Speaker 7: people from the soundtrack and a lot of the songs

1185
01:06:14,565 --> 01:06:16,645
Speaker 7: from the soundtrack, but also some people there aret on

1186
01:06:16,645 --> 01:06:19,205
Speaker 7: the soundtrack and some songs that aren't on the soundtrack.

1187
01:06:19,525 --> 01:06:22,405
Speaker 7: It is, you know, it's it's just it's great. It's

1188
01:06:22,405 --> 01:06:25,685
Speaker 7: a great concert of this, of this, of this music.

1189
01:06:25,765 --> 01:06:28,605
Speaker 7: The the filmmaking is not flashy, but it's it's very

1190
01:06:28,725 --> 01:06:31,605
Speaker 7: you know, it's very flat on the wallagy might expect

1191
01:06:31,645 --> 01:06:33,845
Speaker 7: from that team. There's a moment that always stuck with

1192
01:06:33,885 --> 01:06:36,805
Speaker 7: me though, that has that's sort of like between between

1193
01:06:36,885 --> 01:06:39,325
Speaker 7: acts and it's Emmy Lou Harris backstage and she's singing

1194
01:06:39,405 --> 01:06:42,805
Speaker 7: one of her own songs, I think acapella, and she

1195
01:06:43,525 --> 01:06:47,365
Speaker 7: is completely captivating and it's sort of like, you know,

1196
01:06:47,725 --> 01:06:52,485
Speaker 7: it makes you aware of the performer is performing something

1197
01:06:52,525 --> 01:06:54,845
Speaker 7: that the effect to have his audience or they're not

1198
01:06:54,845 --> 01:06:57,125
Speaker 7: not always on the same page necessarily because she's she's

1199
01:06:57,365 --> 01:07:01,205
Speaker 7: you know, a beautiful voice, beautiful song, and about midway

1200
01:07:01,245 --> 01:07:03,445
Speaker 7: through she's totally cuts off because she has sort of

1201
01:07:03,485 --> 01:07:07,445
Speaker 7: this pre smartphone device that gives baseball score updates and

1202
01:07:07,485 --> 01:07:11,605
Speaker 7: she's just really excited about some updated What are you doing,

1203
01:07:11,645 --> 01:07:17,005
Speaker 7: You're you're you're breaking the spell aarush, but yeah, I'd recommend.

1204
01:07:17,045 --> 01:07:18,965
Speaker 7: I definitely recommend that film. If you want a little

1205
01:07:19,005 --> 01:07:20,925
Speaker 7: bit more of that O Brother Worret, they'll.

1206
01:07:20,765 --> 01:07:29,005
Speaker 5: Feel absolutely incredible. Thank you so much for that. That's

1207
01:07:29,005 --> 01:07:31,365
Speaker 5: it for this edition of The Next Picture Show, Genevieve,

1208
01:07:31,405 --> 01:07:32,885
Speaker 5: Can you tell us about our next pairing?

1209
01:07:33,325 --> 01:07:36,205
Speaker 6: Well? With the summer movie season winding down in Hollywood,

1210
01:07:36,285 --> 01:07:38,645
Speaker 6: we are also clocking out next week for just a

1211
01:07:38,685 --> 01:07:40,805
Speaker 6: little more time in the sun, but we'll be back

1212
01:07:40,805 --> 01:07:42,805
Speaker 6: the week after that, and we're cooking up a culinary

1213
01:07:42,805 --> 01:07:45,405
Speaker 6: pairing that will surely earn us three stars in Michelin,

1214
01:07:45,725 --> 01:07:48,885
Speaker 6: five stars on Apple Podcasts, and a James Beard Award.

1215
01:07:49,085 --> 01:07:52,925
Speaker 6: In his wonderful memoir Kitchen Confidential, Anthony Mordain referenced his

1216
01:07:53,005 --> 01:07:55,645
Speaker 6: humble beginnings in Provincetown, where he cut his teeth as

1217
01:07:55,645 --> 01:07:58,125
Speaker 6: a dishwasher and lin cook and a small restaurant while

1218
01:07:58,165 --> 01:08:01,405
Speaker 6: getting into all sorts of mischief. That formative piece of

1219
01:08:01,445 --> 01:08:04,405
Speaker 6: his life has inspired Tony, a lively newcoming of age

1220
01:08:04,405 --> 01:08:07,485
Speaker 6: film by Matt Johnson, the director of BlackBerry and Nirvana,

1221
01:08:07,525 --> 01:08:09,965
Speaker 6: the band of the show the movie. Before his death

1222
01:08:10,005 --> 01:08:13,405
Speaker 6: in twenty eighteen, Bourdain had cited the Pixar classic Ratitude

1223
01:08:13,405 --> 01:08:15,245
Speaker 6: as one of the best films ever made about the

1224
01:08:15,245 --> 01:08:18,764
Speaker 6: restaurant business, reserving special praise for how well it understood

1225
01:08:18,765 --> 01:08:21,485
Speaker 6: the passion and protocols of the kitchen. So on our

1226
01:08:21,485 --> 01:08:24,004
Speaker 6: next set of episodes, we'll look at Ratitude and Tony

1227
01:08:24,285 --> 01:08:27,604
Speaker 6: and decide who's the least chaotic chef, an aspirational rat

1228
01:08:27,684 --> 01:08:30,205
Speaker 6: or a skirt chasing college student on summer break.

1229
01:08:30,765 --> 01:08:32,884
Speaker 5: For now, we welcome your feedback on Oh Brother, Where

1230
01:08:32,925 --> 01:08:35,684
Speaker 5: art thou? The Odyssey, and anything else film related you'd

1231
01:08:35,724 --> 01:08:38,045
Speaker 5: like to talk about. Email us at comments at next

1232
01:08:38,085 --> 01:08:40,644
Speaker 5: pictureshow dot net, or leave us a voicemail at seven

1233
01:08:40,725 --> 01:08:44,325
Speaker 5: seven three two three four nine seven three zero. Before

1234
01:08:44,365 --> 01:08:46,485
Speaker 5: we close out this week's episode, where can we find

1235
01:08:46,485 --> 01:08:48,605
Speaker 5: everyone these days? Genevieve, let's start with you.

1236
01:08:49,285 --> 01:08:52,125
Speaker 6: I continue to be the TV editor at Vulture, mostly

1237
01:08:52,205 --> 01:08:55,245
Speaker 6: behind the scenes, and I continue to park on Blue

1238
01:08:55,245 --> 01:09:00,245
Speaker 6: Sky at Genevieve Koski and occasionally post some completely non

1239
01:09:01,005 --> 01:09:05,125
Speaker 6: film or TV related content on my Instagram. So if

1240
01:09:05,205 --> 01:09:06,885
Speaker 6: you want to see what my garden or dogs are

1241
01:09:06,965 --> 01:09:08,564
Speaker 6: up to, go there, Scott.

1242
01:09:09,165 --> 01:09:10,125
Speaker 2: I'm just looking up.

1243
01:09:11,885 --> 01:09:15,285
Speaker 4: What's the last time we've gotten an original?

1244
01:09:15,405 --> 01:09:21,845
Speaker 2: Genevieve costumes. And it's been seven months, so you've gotten something.

1245
01:09:22,525 --> 01:09:26,125
Speaker 4: But but but maybe maybe maybe maybe a little bit

1246
01:09:26,165 --> 01:09:30,445
Speaker 4: more powerful. The impact is powerful when it happens. You

1247
01:09:30,485 --> 01:09:34,445
Speaker 4: can find me mostly at the Reveal, the newsletter that

1248
01:09:34,725 --> 01:09:39,325
Speaker 4: I write with Keith Phipps. That's the Reveal Dot film.

1249
01:09:39,525 --> 01:09:42,765
Speaker 4: I'm gonna by way of it hasn't happened yet by

1250
01:09:42,925 --> 01:09:45,845
Speaker 4: but I'm gonna will myself to do a ranked list

1251
01:09:45,845 --> 01:09:48,885
Speaker 4: of Christopher Nolan films for the newsletter next week.

1252
01:09:49,165 --> 01:09:51,845
Speaker 2: So I have to do it. So I have to.

1253
01:09:52,125 --> 01:09:54,045
Speaker 4: It will have already been It's you've already seen it.

1254
01:09:54,245 --> 01:09:56,604
Speaker 4: Well you have been there. But but me saying it,

1255
01:09:56,645 --> 01:09:59,485
Speaker 4: I'm speaking into existence now do.

1256
01:09:59,605 --> 01:10:01,724
Speaker 5: You're pulling out Tyresius predicting the future?

1257
01:10:02,125 --> 01:10:02,604
Speaker 2: I'm good.

1258
01:10:02,965 --> 01:10:05,925
Speaker 4: You just want me in New York Times, Vulture, Guarding,

1259
01:10:05,925 --> 01:10:09,285
Speaker 4: and other fine publications. And I met on Blue Sky

1260
01:10:09,445 --> 01:10:12,445
Speaker 4: at Scott Tobias Tush Robinson.

1261
01:10:12,645 --> 01:10:15,885
Speaker 5: Oh you can find me over at Vulture, still writing

1262
01:10:15,925 --> 01:10:19,845
Speaker 5: about Game Changer, the Dropout Show, which I love so

1263
01:10:20,005 --> 01:10:23,405
Speaker 5: very very dearly, and occasionally popping up on Polygon, where

1264
01:10:23,445 --> 01:10:27,005
Speaker 5: I just reviewed Moana. So if you believe Scott, and

1265
01:10:27,285 --> 01:10:29,165
Speaker 5: I want to know why I hate Moana so much.

1266
01:10:29,205 --> 01:10:31,845
Speaker 5: I don't hate Malana so much, but you can find

1267
01:10:31,845 --> 01:10:36,005
Speaker 5: out there. Also July brought the release of the Criterion

1268
01:10:36,205 --> 01:10:39,325
Speaker 5: edition of The Crying Game, with an essay by yours

1269
01:10:39,405 --> 01:10:43,844
Speaker 5: truly about Neil Jordan and the history of this movie

1270
01:10:44,165 --> 01:10:48,405
Speaker 5: and its complicated reception, shall we say in Ireland and

1271
01:10:48,525 --> 01:10:52,965
Speaker 5: the UK versus it's more straightforward and certainly very influential

1272
01:10:53,085 --> 01:10:58,165
Speaker 5: reception in America. Very very interesting history of this movie

1273
01:10:58,205 --> 01:11:01,245
Speaker 5: and very interesting taking a big deep dive into the

1274
01:11:01,285 --> 01:11:03,885
Speaker 5: things that Neil Jordan has said about it over the

1275
01:11:03,965 --> 01:11:07,165
Speaker 5: course of more than thirty years of release. So you

1276
01:11:07,205 --> 01:11:10,125
Speaker 5: can find that essay online at Criterion dot com. You

1277
01:11:10,125 --> 01:11:12,085
Speaker 5: can also find it in the liner notes of the

1278
01:11:12,525 --> 01:11:16,165
Speaker 5: actual edition of the movie, which I highly recommend revisiting

1279
01:11:16,325 --> 01:11:18,644
Speaker 5: or watching if you haven't seen it already. Keith, where

1280
01:11:18,645 --> 01:11:19,245
Speaker 5: can we find you?

1281
01:11:19,925 --> 01:11:21,925
Speaker 7: Tasha? I had to ask that, and I'm sorry. I

1282
01:11:21,925 --> 01:11:25,445
Speaker 7: apologize in advance, but after I read this essay, well,

1283
01:11:25,485 --> 01:11:28,724
Speaker 7: I know all I need to know about the Crying Game.

1284
01:11:29,205 --> 01:11:31,245
Speaker 5: I mean, I know all there is to know about

1285
01:11:31,245 --> 01:11:34,764
Speaker 5: the Crying Game. It turns out it's really pretty simple.

1286
01:11:35,645 --> 01:11:39,765
Speaker 5: So yeah, probably you will, I mean now, and you

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01:11:39,845 --> 01:11:42,645
Speaker 5: need to see the movie as well, and honestly, if

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01:11:42,685 --> 01:11:44,565
Speaker 5: you see the movie, you might know all there is

1289
01:11:44,605 --> 01:11:47,045
Speaker 5: to know about the Crying Game. I'm just a supplement.

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01:11:47,685 --> 01:11:51,684
Speaker 7: Well as for me, I write about film and television wherever,

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01:11:51,765 --> 01:11:54,325
Speaker 7: in any place that will happen the most recent most

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01:11:54,405 --> 01:11:57,645
Speaker 7: you know, currently at Vulture and TV Guide, occasionally some

1293
01:11:57,685 --> 01:11:59,805
Speaker 7: other places, but you can always find me at the

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01:11:59,805 --> 01:12:02,365
Speaker 7: Reveal at the Revealed Dot film. It's the newsletter that

1295
01:12:02,645 --> 01:12:05,325
Speaker 7: Scott already mentioned where I co write. I co write

1296
01:12:05,365 --> 01:12:08,405
Speaker 7: that with him and as much as he willed his

1297
01:12:08,445 --> 01:12:11,085
Speaker 7: next piece into existence. I'm holding a blu ray of

1298
01:12:11,085 --> 01:12:14,445
Speaker 7: the film Ulysses, which is the Anthony Quinn Kirk Douglas

1299
01:12:14,685 --> 01:12:17,564
Speaker 7: version of the Odyssey from the nineteen fifties that I've

1300
01:12:17,605 --> 01:12:20,365
Speaker 7: never seen. But it's interesting that I think it's just

1301
01:12:20,365 --> 01:12:23,205
Speaker 7: the fact that it's it's the only other modern, you know,

1302
01:12:23,285 --> 01:12:26,724
Speaker 7: sort of like post silent full adaptation of the Odyssey

1303
01:12:26,885 --> 01:12:29,685
Speaker 7: to film, and I think it's probably pretty different. It's

1304
01:12:29,725 --> 01:12:32,085
Speaker 7: only ninety four minutes long, so I'm sure it's quite

1305
01:12:32,085 --> 01:12:36,765
Speaker 7: different from Christopher Nolan's version. Also, because there aren't enough

1306
01:12:36,765 --> 01:12:40,604
Speaker 7: film podcasts and in the world, I recently launched a

1307
01:12:40,925 --> 01:12:43,445
Speaker 7: with with Mike Ryan, who used to work with it

1308
01:12:43,565 --> 01:12:45,965
Speaker 7: up Rocks. He brought me the idea of doing a

1309
01:12:47,525 --> 01:12:50,285
Speaker 7: podcast about Harrison Ford movies, and I think that's a

1310
01:12:50,285 --> 01:12:52,045
Speaker 7: pretty good idea, and he's like, and we can call

1311
01:12:52,045 --> 01:12:54,525
Speaker 7: it Ford Focus, Like, oh, that's a great idea. So

1312
01:12:54,645 --> 01:12:58,165
Speaker 7: we are going through the filmography of Harrison Ford, you know,

1313
01:12:58,205 --> 01:13:00,325
Speaker 7: one film at a time. We're currently on a weekly

1314
01:13:00,365 --> 01:13:03,844
Speaker 7: schedule and we're having some guests on. You know, currently

1315
01:13:03,885 --> 01:13:06,725
Speaker 7: we got episodes about The Fugitive. By the time this

1316
01:13:06,805 --> 01:13:10,925
Speaker 7: comes out, we'll have covered Mosquito Coast and The Devil's Own.

1317
01:13:11,205 --> 01:13:13,445
Speaker 7: Are kind of alternating the big hits with the lesser

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01:13:13,485 --> 01:13:13,965
Speaker 7: known films.

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01:13:13,965 --> 01:13:17,165
Speaker 4: So it's if you were to join Patreon and get

1320
01:13:17,205 --> 01:13:18,965
Speaker 4: more content, what would you be called then.

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01:13:18,925 --> 01:13:22,805
Speaker 7: Keith, Well, know you're referring to our bonus episodes, which

1322
01:13:22,805 --> 01:13:26,684
Speaker 7: are thing Ford escapes, which.

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01:13:28,085 --> 01:13:31,165
Speaker 2: I thought you were personally called a Ford Explorer. If you're.

1324
01:13:33,005 --> 01:13:35,125
Speaker 7: Maybe that's me that we need to maybe we need

1325
01:13:35,125 --> 01:13:38,325
Speaker 7: to incorporate that. That's that's great. We did rule out

1326
01:13:38,445 --> 01:13:41,165
Speaker 7: using the word Ford probe in any context show though,

1327
01:13:41,245 --> 01:13:43,845
Speaker 7: so that's that would not work. But you can look

1328
01:13:43,845 --> 01:13:45,525
Speaker 7: for that where we can find podcasts and you know,

1329
01:13:45,645 --> 01:13:46,165
Speaker 7: like this one.

1330
01:13:46,285 --> 01:13:48,445
Speaker 5: You can also stay updated on the Next Picture Show

1331
01:13:48,445 --> 01:13:50,724
Speaker 5: at Next Picture Show dot net and on blue Sky

1332
01:13:50,805 --> 01:13:53,485
Speaker 5: at the Next Picture Show. Get bonus content and open

1333
01:13:53,485 --> 01:13:56,365
Speaker 5: discussion at patreon dot com slash Next Picture Show. And

1334
01:13:56,445 --> 01:13:59,564
Speaker 5: as always, we appreciate your ratings and reviews on Apple

1335
01:13:59,605 --> 01:14:02,445
Speaker 5: Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to this show.

1336
01:14:02,765 --> 01:14:05,045
Speaker 5: Thanks to Dan the Bake Jakes for his assistance in

1337
01:14:05,085 --> 01:14:07,845
Speaker 5: producing this podcast. The Next Picture Show is proud to

1338
01:14:07,845 --> 01:14:10,525
Speaker 5: be part of the Film Spotting family of podcasts. Please

1339
01:14:10,565 --> 01:14:11,365
Speaker 5: tune in next time.

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01:14:23,325 --> 01:14:25,965
Speaker 7: It was a good movie Yah seen here before once