1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: never told your production of I Heart Radio. It's time 3 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: for another female first, which means we are once again 4 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: joined by our good friend and colleague, Eve's welcome. Eves, Hello, Hello, Hello. 5 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: You know, I gotta say I'm a little I feel 6 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: a little left out because I've been wearing my yellow 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: hoodie all week and today is the first day I 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: didn't wear it. And yes, I will openly admit I 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: wear the same clothes several days in a row. You 10 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: can judge me if you want. But Samantha and Eves 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: are both wearing yellow. I'm just gonna say, whose fault 12 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: is that you aren't wave length? I mean I still 13 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: feel the coordination. I mean yellow and pink or get 14 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: colors together springtime. E So I feel like it was 15 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: more of a theme day than a colored day, because 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: that makes you feel better, right. I feel that I 17 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: could take it in multiple ways, but I'm going to 18 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: take it in the way that does make me feel better. Okay, cool, 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: the only and best way. Yes, I am wearing pink, everybody, 20 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: and it is getting It's getting warmer here in Atlanta, yes, 21 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: which is a problem. For me as a podcaster in 22 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: my home studio because a C has to be off 23 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: so you guys get to see my glistening face. Will says, 24 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: turn our air conditioning off so that we could do 25 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: the episode without the roaring of the air condition And 26 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm gonna have to figure out something because 27 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: it's not that hot. It's hotter, but we know it's 28 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: not the Georgia summer hot yet, and I'm like, I'm 29 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: gonna have to figure something out because this is gonna 30 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: be a bad situation. Yeah, minds you people. Not the 31 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: Georgia summer hot yet still means that we've gotten highs 32 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: of seventies something in eight e and like over the 33 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: past couple of weeks, which I am here for. I 34 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: love it, but I recognize that other places are still 35 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 1: firmly in the winter. In the winter situation, like there's 36 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: still snow happening, um, still light breezes, still very very 37 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: chilly nights. So sorry for you, but we are living 38 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: large and fitting pretty right now. And we say living large. 39 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: It hasn't hit the humidity yet, in which soon enough 40 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: it's gonna be ninety till a hundred, but feels like 41 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: one twenty because of the humidity that the rain never comes. 42 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: You think he's going to at any moment, but it 43 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: never does. I will say. The downside is the mosquitoes 44 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: are out now good, Yes, they are are coming. The 45 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: bugs are coming. Yeah. And as Smith and I are, 46 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, fully vaccinated as of yesterday, And the CDC 47 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: has released like their new charred about guidelines for safety 48 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: and mask wearing. And I was like, is it time 49 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: to start running outside again? And there was a part 50 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,119 Speaker 1: in the back of my mind it's like, now it's 51 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: a lot, there's bugs, and it's human and this is 52 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: when you want to start. I guess, I guess. Before 53 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: we start recording listeners, we were having a really rousing 54 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: conversation about I've got a lot of questions that I 55 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: wanna I want to follow up with both of you 56 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: about breakfast, traveling for breakfast and making lists about that 57 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: because I'm very intrigued as someone who also makes a 58 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: lot of lists and lost food. And then are reading 59 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: and Dancy Drew and Sweet Valley High, which Samantha says 60 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: is kind of slutty. So I don't know, not because 61 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: it was, but because I was told that by my mother. 62 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: I felt like this was going to get you know, 63 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: religious ideas and her Christian beliefs, and firmly believe Sweet 64 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: Valley High was teaching girls to be promiscuous. But I 65 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: don't understand in that because all they had were boyfriends. 66 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: All of the series had boyfriends, right, Essentially, Sweet Belly 67 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: High was exed at our house. Yeah, but Nancy Drew 68 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,679 Speaker 1: and Babysitter's Club, We're fine. And when I say, uh, 69 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: Nancy Drew, I even read the new renditions which were 70 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: a little more risque. I talked about between Ned and Nancy, 71 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 1: which by the names Ned, Nancy, Bess and George fantastic 72 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: best ever and then like the Hardy Boys and all 73 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: of that. But yeah, my mother, I don't know if 74 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: it's because one person told her about it or she 75 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: actually read. I've never seen her read outside of the Bible, 76 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: so like, I'm not really sure where she got this perspective, 77 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: but it was firmly decided in our household. No Sweet 78 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: Belly High. Yeah. Yeah, I have a very infamous occasion 79 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 1: where my family only had for a long time, we 80 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: only had one TV when I have four channels, so 81 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: you had to kind of fight who got the TV? Time, 82 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,799 Speaker 1: and I loved the show Roswell, and I like campaign 83 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: for my family, like, please let me watch an episode 84 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: of Roswell on TV instead of having to rely on 85 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: like reruns that happened at two AM or whatever. And um, 86 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: they finally agreed and we all sat down to watch it. 87 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: Kid you not. The episode was called Sexual Healing, and 88 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: the entire episode. The rest of the series was nothing 89 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: like this, but that entire episode was about Max and Liz, 90 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: the two main characters had to have sex to survive 91 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: multiple times. And I'm sitting there watching it with my 92 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,799 Speaker 1: entire family, and I'm trying not to act as though 93 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: this is an egregious thing that's happening, Like it's totally cool. 94 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: Don't read into it. The show is not like this disaster. 95 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: They're like, they just what you wanted. Annie. The silence 96 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: was deafening. They never let me watch it again. Darn 97 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: so where you devastated after that? Did you know why 98 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: you're watching it? Like? Man, I just ruined it and 99 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: it wasn't even my fault. It felt like things were 100 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: going right down the drain eves. It really did. Um 101 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: like that cold sort of child dread that feels like 102 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: your world is ending. They would let me watch it. 103 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: They just never let me watch it around them. Again, 104 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: I suppose that's fair. I should go back and watch 105 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 1: that episode and see how about it. Actually was right, 106 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: very mild by comparison of things you've seen since Prostate, 107 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: probably because Samathan I recently talked about board games geared 108 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: towards women, and we talked about computer games like the 109 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: Nancy Drew game you were talking about Eves, and I 110 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: would love to come back and talk about that because 111 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: I had a Barbie computer game that was sort of similar. 112 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: It was like solving mysteries. I'm here for it. I 113 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: loved it. Yeah, So, just so y'all know, I used 114 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: to and still do play Nancy Drew computer games. They're 115 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: super fun. They're just like mystery games, just like the 116 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: Nancy Drew books are pretty tame, but you know, you 117 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: can choose your difficulty level and then you go through 118 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: and you solve puzzles, and then you talk to people 119 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: and you figure out mysteries. And I was just telling 120 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: them how it's often very problematic, but it's also a 121 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: lot of fun, and I'm always here for I get 122 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: puzzled too, because like even in my my older years, 123 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: you know, versus when I first started playing it. Now, 124 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: puzzles are really good for memory, like doing things like that. 125 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: I think about in that frame a lot more because puzzles, 126 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: word searches, sadoku, all those kinds of things where things 127 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: that I did probably more when I was younger, and 128 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: it's probably best for me to do them even more 129 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: than I did when I was young, just because of 130 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: the like the advantages that they have for memory training 131 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: and working your brain out as the muscle it is. 132 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: I love words are just and knows this about me. 133 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: I love them. I love sitting mindlessly staring at whatever 134 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: shows happening, and then getting different color highlighters and hopefully 135 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: the pages. I'm very specific about pages and all that, 136 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: so I think I can markt in different colors. Oh 137 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: that's that's that's another level. That's the level, okay, but 138 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: I aspired to it now. There's something though, when I'm 139 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: thinking about all the computer games, y'all are talking very 140 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: specific computer games, because I'm like, I played mind Sweep 141 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: and Solidaire were all of these other games, and I 142 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: think I did the Organ Troll. But those are all 143 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: really good ones too, Okay, Okay, I just felt that. 144 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: I was like, I didn't play that game? What's that game? 145 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: I really loved the jump Start series, and sort of 146 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: relating to what we were talking about, Samantha, with playing 147 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: games that you've perhaps aged out of alone, I would. 148 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: And they said the jump Start games were supposed to 149 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: be like before you get into first grade, you play 150 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: Jumps first grade and it would help you prepare for it. 151 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: And I still think about jump Start fifth grade. It 152 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: was really fun. I would play it again today up 153 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: sixth grade was hard. I don't know, Yeah, but they 154 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: were fun. I I do appreciate like mysteries and puzzles 155 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: and all that stuff as well. That's what those games were. Yeah. 156 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: Carmen san Diego is another good one. Oh that one 157 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: I did play, Yes, but I only played that at 158 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: school and so you had to finish your work faster 159 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: than everybody else would run over there. Yes, that's great 160 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: fight over the computer. Yeah, like it was showdown people 161 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: that d m H. Well, speaking of books that have 162 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: been X, who did you bring for us to talk 163 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: about today? Eves? Today we were talking about Tatabi Shin Day. 164 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: So there is like a lot of other people who 165 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: we've talked about not a ton of information on her 166 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: actual life that is accessible to me in the English language, 167 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: but there is three Perushtuna, which translated means a comparison 168 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: between women and men um and that's been considered the 169 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: first modern Indian feminist text. That's something that I've seen 170 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: it called many times. So that's what we're going to 171 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: call the first today. She's also been called the first 172 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: Indian feminist literary critic by some people, But there were 173 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: a lot of other people who were in India who 174 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: were working on feminist ideas and feminist issues and challenging 175 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: a lot of things that were happening there at the time. 176 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: And yeah, I got a lot of the info and 177 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: the quotes that we're going to talk about today from 178 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: the translation and the accompanying essay by Rosalind O'Hanlon. So 179 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: that that translation was done in I believe, and that 180 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: is how it was opened up to the more the 181 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: English speaking population and became more widely known and available. 182 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: Even though her name isn't one that said a ton 183 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 1: in relation to you know, conversation about feminism in India 184 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: and general broad conversations. But yeah, obviously there are a 185 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: lot of implication like feminism is such a broad topic 186 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: and it operates so differently in different cultures and different 187 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: nations and throughout the course of history. So there's a lot, 188 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: a lot that won't be said today about what the 189 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: book or the text meant during the time. Not gonna 190 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna dwell on what's right and what's wrong 191 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: at all. Um, that's kind of not not the purpose 192 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: of this conversation today. But I will tell you about 193 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: tat tobias critiques. You know, what she was challenging and 194 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: what she said about those things from her perspective, because 195 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: her perspective, even though you know it was it was 196 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: very singular. It was her own perspective within the broader 197 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: context of what other people who were in upper casts 198 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: and in the mid to late eighteen hundreds in early 199 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds in India lived by and thought, yeah, a 200 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: lot of stuff happening there. But today sday, that's who 201 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: we are talking about today. Yes, and probably just by 202 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: the first listeners, you know, that caused some waves, the 203 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 1: work that she did, and there was a lot going 204 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: on in India when she was doing it. So why 205 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: don't we jump into her story? Okay, So I'll kind 206 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: of start up with some of the information that we 207 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: do know about her. She lived under the British Raj, 208 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: which was British rule in India. The eighteen fifties to 209 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: the nineteen teens were a turbulent period in India. I 210 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: feel like I say that a lot, but like, obviously 211 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: a lot of periods are turbulent, like we're living in 212 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: is But of course there were a lot of uprisings, 213 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: like there was a whole nationalist movement, there were infrastructure changes, 214 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: there were people sewing division like, there was a lot 215 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: happening in different realms of society. So with that in mind, 216 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: you know that there was a lot of other intersections 217 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: of things that were happening with economy, with you know, 218 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: social systems, with gender, like all of these things were 219 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: kind of wrapped up at the same time. She came 220 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: from a prosperous family of Marata's, which was the dominant 221 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: peasant cast in Maharashtra. Her family lived in Buldana, which 222 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: was a town and what was then Beddar in central 223 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: India and now that's the state of Maharashtra. And her family, 224 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: you know, her father was Bapuji. He was a head 225 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: clerk in the office of the Deputy Commissioner in town. 226 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: And he was also a member of the Sati Shoduk Somage, 227 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: which was a reformist and anti Brahmin truth seeking society 228 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: that was headed up by Joe Tiba Pule. So you 229 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: might have heard that Poul name before because that that 230 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: Poul name also comes up in conversations of social movement 231 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: and feminism in India. Um the society supported abolishing the 232 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: cast system. They supported a quality and freedom for people 233 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: who were in the lower cast They also supported the 234 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: education of women and lower cast people, and they encouraged 235 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: widow remarriage and Western education. And widow remarriage is the 236 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: thing that we're going to revisit because it's something that 237 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: taught a buy focused on. And the society also opposed 238 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: the domination of brahmin's and child marriage. And that's a 239 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: broad overview of the things that they supported in the 240 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: way that they operated. But that's just to say that 241 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: these are things that we're going on in Sati Shodok 242 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: Somage that they were support waring that were like already 243 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: ideas that were being engaged with at the time and 244 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: in the realm of Tata Bay. Because Poul was a 245 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: friend of the family and it's said that he influenced 246 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: Tada Bay in the way that she thought and the 247 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: things that she cared about, as he and his wife 248 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: salled three By. Poul also worked on issues of the 249 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: oppression of gender and cast in India. So Tata Bay 250 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: had four brothers and she read and wrote in Madti, 251 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: English and Sanskrit. She was married and her husband came 252 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: to live with her in her father's house, rather than 253 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: her leaving her home to go live in her husband's household. 254 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: It's not clear why her marriage was like this for 255 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: her particularly, even though it was that way for other 256 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: people as well. But it's not clear why it was 257 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: for her specifically, but it might have been because her 258 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: father wanted her to stay at home. Her husband died 259 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: before she did, it was not clear when, and they 260 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: didn't have children and she did not remarry. So as 261 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: far as descriptions of Tata By, there was a guy 262 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: named Gotadar Govin Patuck who gave this description. This is 263 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: a quote. She was a short and dumpy woman with 264 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: thick glass spectacles on her eyes. There was always a 265 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: stick in her hand. And then he goes, I want 266 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: to say, her face was very cruel looking. She had 267 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: a very fiery temper, and whenever she saw small children, 268 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: she would chase after them, hitting at them with her stick. 269 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: We children used to be very much afraid of her. 270 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: Um I called out a little bit about me in 271 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: the future. I think it was the Spectacles, right, because 272 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: I felt that too. I was like, alright, the short 273 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: and dumpy and then chasing children too. We're coming from 274 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: different angles here. There's a part of that description that 275 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: I'm like really offended by, and there's is a part 276 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: that I am like, good for you, right, And obviously 277 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: that description of her, it's very flavored, like clearly coming 278 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: from one person's voice. It seems to be weighted with 279 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: its bias and kind of notions of her that might 280 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: have been based on her writing. Because this was a 281 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: description that came after her text came out. It was 282 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: published years after her book was released. So that's a 283 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: little bit about her, a little bit of biased, biased 284 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: information from especially particularly on the description. Yeah, I feel 285 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: like that's pretty it's pretty spot on. Again, not knowing her, 286 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: but like a description we could see a feminist to 287 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: this day, where like she's cruel and she's tracing children 288 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: and the beginning of being a witch. Right. Yes, yes, 289 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 1: it's all linked for sure, those kind of like like 290 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: the person had to be bitter in some way and 291 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: and me it was always without reason. It's like the 292 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: anchor is never justified. Yeah. But on a basic, basic 293 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: level of the background of what was happening in India, 294 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: you know, there was there's a cash system which divides 295 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: Hindus into categories with Brahms at the top, and so 296 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: that system dictates how many areas of religious and social life, 297 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 1: how they lived, how they married, how they ate, and 298 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: then gender practices, which is very very deep and rich 299 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: um practice um. And it's also important to remember that 300 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: vertically like horizontally, India is also a huge place, so 301 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: there are many different practices across that huge, huge land 302 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: and people operated under that system in different ways in 303 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: different areas. And the third point that I would like 304 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: to make is that there was change in society under 305 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 1: that time under the British Raj. Of course, as always 306 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: there's evolution over time, but at this point, specifically in 307 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: which Tata Bai was speaking, there was a change in 308 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 1: society in general and in gender relations under that rule. 309 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: And of course imperialism as it does like the stick 310 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: ist dirty fingers and things, and had an effect on 311 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 1: women in India. And that was situated within the larger 312 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: context that accounted for the ways women were treated before 313 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: foreign rule and within that nationalist movement, and there were 314 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: people of all genders in the mid eighteen hundreds who 315 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: challenged practices that were deemed unacceptable and they supported issues 316 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: that they believed would improve women's lives. Those are issues 317 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: like sati child marriage in fanticide, the remarriage of widows, education, 318 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: the seclusion of women, and dowry and other things that 319 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: were happening, widow of course being the term used to 320 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: describe women who survived after their husbands had died, and 321 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: then seclusion as in when women remained in the home, 322 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: veiled the face, and similar practices that could be stricter 323 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: for women who were of higher status than those who 324 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: are of lower status. And you can find writings about 325 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: this about people who are challenging these issues for various 326 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: different reasons, because obviously this is couched in a specific 327 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: time and a specific culture, so you know there were 328 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,239 Speaker 1: there were different reasons people were challenging these issues that 329 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: may have still been rooted in traditionalist ideas mix along 330 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: with progressive ideas just you know, it vary depending on 331 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: how a person approached them. But in the mid eighteen 332 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: hundreds to the early nineteen hundreds there were many women 333 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 1: who authored books, pamphlets, papers, poem stories, novels, all of 334 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: those things of the like and essays and Madati the 335 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: language and did have contemporaries in people like A. Nod 336 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: Bai Joshi and Pandita Ramabai. So this is where we 337 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: get to the actual text, which is a comparison between 338 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: women and men, has been called a book, essay, pamphlet, 339 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: like whatever you want to call it. It was a 340 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: text that was like pretty short, but kind of standard 341 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: size for pamphlets of the time. On a broad scale, 342 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 1: it was virtually unknown until nineteen seventy five, which was 343 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:21,360 Speaker 1: when a scholar of Farati literature S. G. Malshi found it, 344 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: and before that there was only a reference to the 345 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: book in one of jot By Poles essays. Tata Bay's 346 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: book was published in eighteen eighty two, and like I 347 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: said earlier, rosalind On Handlin's translation was published in which 348 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: is obviously my introduction to it, because I am not 349 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: I cannot read Marati, I cannot. I'm I can read English, 350 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: and that's pretty much it very American of me, right, 351 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: so the way that the story is told. She had 352 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: a strong response to an article that was written about 353 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: a young upper cast widow whose name was Vigile Lakshmi, 354 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: who was sentenced to death for either and abortion or infanticide. 355 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: Under the fear of being shunned, that sentence was changed 356 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: to transportation for life. The article criticized her and women 357 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: in general for their morals, calling them modernistic and loose. 358 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: But as was the case, because of the way things 359 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 1: were set up, girls were often married to old men, 360 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: and pregnancy, of course outside of marriage and in fantaside 361 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: were common. Abortion and death while attempting abortion we're also 362 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: not uncommon either. The Widow Remarriage Act was passed in 363 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty six. But as we know very very well, 364 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: legislation does not remove just it. It's not traditional thought 365 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: just magically disappears and there's no more stigma, no more criticism. 366 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: Punishment in the world is like, ah, now that things 367 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: are legalized, all's good, everything's cool. No um. And that 368 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: was the case. That was how it was in this 369 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: case as well, especially that's how it is and issues 370 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: of gender and sexuality. So in the book she is 371 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: Tata is very critical of the patriarchal system. She talks 372 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: about the criticisms that are directed at women and shows 373 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: how men are often guilty of the very thing that 374 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: they're criticizing, or at least responsible for it. So if 375 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: they're not guilty of it, you know they had a 376 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: hand in making it so that it was the case 377 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: for women. And she says in the text God created 378 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: all people, so why would God make women the only 379 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: wicked ones? Or or think about it? Or do men 380 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: possess the same faults? Let's wonder this And then like 381 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: goes on to write about it. Hear me out, hear 382 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: me out. Maybe just maybe all people are flawed. And 383 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: it's funny the way she does about it. So we'll 384 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: talk about that. She floored the way society set up 385 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: men over women, bromins over the lower cast, and then 386 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: the way that the British aligned with the upper cast 387 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: and vice versa, the way that progress the line was 388 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: the British. The book was printed in Pune and in 389 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: the Marati language. It's sold for nine honest, which was 390 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: a monetary unit that was a pretty standard price for 391 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: a pamphlet of that size then, and she gives a 392 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: disclaimer in the beginning that the book is kind of 393 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: all over the place, which is fair, but as a 394 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: personal aside, I feel like you need to go all 395 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: in on these things, and like the disclaimer just tinges 396 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: people who are readers was like setting them as if 397 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: they weren't already set up to be like I don't 398 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: know about this, you know, you know when you say 399 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 1: something like you know, this is this is my first try. 400 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: You know it's gonna be a little all over the place. 401 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: I'm really not gonna listen to you now. But that's 402 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: just personally, um, something that I wish would have been 403 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: left out, but I get it. So in the text, 404 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: she recounts how women were frequently lamed for the problems 405 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: that occurred in Indian society, and she says in the 406 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: introduction that she aims to quote defend the honor of 407 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: all my sister countrywomen. I'm not looking at particular casts 408 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: our families here. It's just a comparison between women and men. 409 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: She says. There are a lot of quotables in here, 410 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: so of course I pulled a lot out, but I 411 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: won't go through all of them. I won't. I won't. 412 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: I'll spare you that we love we love quotes. Why 413 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: I take directly from the source exactly. Yeah. So, she 414 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: says that she wants to write about the issues of 415 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: widow remarriage and how Indian people have taken on British habits, 416 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: for instance, in the way that they address and the 417 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: customs that she's deemed important are disintegrating because of the 418 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 1: invasion of British practices. And she says that it's also 419 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: because of these men's new interests and desires that the 420 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: traditional ways of making a living have been disrupted and 421 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: that's causing suffering for people. And she addresses men to directly, 422 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: and she does that more than once in a year. 423 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: Is kind of like that's who she expects to be 424 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,120 Speaker 1: her reader. But she's saying that she's writing the book 425 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: to gain some sympathy from them for the issues that 426 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: she's laying out, and she's hoping that they'll choose to 427 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: take pride in the country rather than abandoning their traditions 428 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: and customs. And she also hopes that it will inspire 429 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: men to just treat women better, and she says that 430 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: it's not the social difficulties of widows that she's concerned with, 431 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: but this kind of this dread of widowhood that creates 432 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 1: the behavior of married women. And she talks about patrata, 433 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: which is a wife who devotes herself completely to her husband. 434 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: She criticized it's the way that that practice plays out, 435 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: saying that it's impractical and ridiculous to kind of be 436 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 1: unquestioningly importantly submissive to a husband. That the way that 437 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: ves are expected to. And she finds it that unacceptable 438 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: that men are allowed to is treat their wives and 439 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: not be questioned, while wives are expected to take that 440 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: mistreatment willingly and with a smile. So she is very 441 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: detailed in this and in her description of like she 442 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: kinda she does this anecdotal hypothetical situation of like, the 443 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: woman is doing this, and she's doing this, and she's 444 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 1: taking care of the baby, how can she get up 445 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: to stir this thing? And like he could do that himself. 446 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell him to do this. This is 447 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: not the way y'all set it up for us, that 448 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: way that we should be. It's not the way that 449 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: it is in actual practicality. Look at all the things 450 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: that we're doing in our role as wives and as mothers. 451 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: There's some lives that I really like. Like there's one 452 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: where she says, if the husband is really to be 453 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: like a god to the wife, then shouldn't he behave 454 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: like one? And if wives are to worship them like 455 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: true devotees, shouldn't husbands have a tender love for them 456 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: in return and care about their joys and pains like 457 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: a real god would. Yeah, So she goes through a 458 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: lot of points here. She calls men's efforts that reform, 459 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: which was like a lot of men were involved in reform, 460 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: and we're also involved in practices that involved women and 461 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: how they were treated in their behavior. She also questions 462 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 1: why women whose husbands die have to hide their faces 463 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: as if they committed some huge crime and spend the 464 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: rest of their lives away in a dark corner. And 465 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: she asks why men don't face the same stigma when 466 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: their wives die, and why they don't have to do 467 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: things like shave and go live in the wild when 468 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: it happens. So she's questioning the double standards essentially, like 469 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: this is she's just laid out, this is what how 470 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: it is for men and this is how it is 471 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: for women. Why, you know, just deposits that question. And 472 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: the presence of the British is also something that comes 473 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: up in their influence and how you know, they were 474 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: kind of hand in hand with some of the men 475 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: in upper casts as well. She says that since the 476 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: British rule began in India, women have benefited from education 477 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: and have gained more insight on how they should behave 478 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: and what's good for them and what's not. And of 479 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: course the actual reality of that is a lot more complex, 480 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: but from her perspective, you know, that is one thing 481 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: that she saw that happened. But at the same time 482 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: she talks about the hypocrisy of men for taking on 483 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: the customs of Europeans like eating meat and drinking alcohol. 484 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: But at the same time they're saying the British governments 485 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: shouldn't middle in their religious practices. So she kind of 486 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,959 Speaker 1: called them out on that, where it's like, y'all are 487 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: caught up in all these things and trying to be 488 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: you know, buddy buddy with the with the British who 489 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: are here in China, you know, make that right for you. 490 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: But at the same time, you're rejecting these Western ideas 491 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: about educating women and saying that no, no, no, you 492 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: shouldn't do this. So I'm going to read another quote 493 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: of hers. She says, women in this world are forever 494 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: putting up with all sorts of heart toil, difficulty, hunger 495 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: and thirst, harassment and beatings, and all they ask is 496 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: a kindly word for you. It's true, you go out 497 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: and earn the money, but she has to see to 498 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: the running of the house, has to do exactly as 499 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: you tell her. Perpetually obedient, kept in ignorance, toiling at 500 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: the most exhausting work, till her body's pleasure breaks into 501 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: little pieces, her bones waste away, and her blood turns 502 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: to water. Her eyes always on your face. Yeah, So, 503 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: I mean she was just laying out what the reality is. 504 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: I think one reason that I really like that quote 505 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: is because it's pretty image heavy. I think that is 506 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: really helpful in terms of like drawing some of the 507 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: pathos out of, you know, the arguments that she was making, 508 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: and it was her truth, you know, and it's something 509 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: that she wanted to to point out. And there's a 510 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: lot of stuff that's pretty stinging too. There's a part 511 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: where she basically says it's pretty funny to me. She 512 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: says that men are so much more scheming than women are. 513 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: She's like, wow, like they're manipulative. They can go out 514 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: and gamble, they do this, they set you up this way. 515 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: Do women ever do that? And she's like, well, maybe 516 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: they do sometimes, but not as much as men. Um. 517 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: She does that a few times throughout the course of 518 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: the text, where she's kind of like, men are this, 519 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: men are this, like just like laying down the negative 520 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: qualities of men, and then she goes and says are 521 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: women like that? And then she kind of like upholds 522 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,239 Speaker 1: puts puts women on a huge pedal stol that I 523 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: know that I can like, you know, I can live 524 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: up to, and you know, it is kind of like 525 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: a it is rhetorical, even though even if she really 526 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: felt that way, it's just kind of like, well, we 527 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: know this isn't always that way in practice. But she 528 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: would always pull back just a little bit and say, 529 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: of course there are some women like She did that 530 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: several times, so I thought that was pretty interesting. And 531 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: the way that she describes women at some points is 532 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: she's she called them ignorant, thoughtless, covetous, gullible, but would say, like, 533 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: that's not on them. That wouldn't be the case if 534 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: they had more education. And a lot of times this 535 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: is because of the parameters they had to act within 536 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: in a society that was patriarchal, where men treated them 537 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: this way and they were inferior, so on and so forth. 538 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: She also talks about the names that men have given women, 539 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: like being the gateway to tell storehouse of deceit acts 540 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: to the tree of virtue. Yeah, so pretty dramatic, right, Wow, 541 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't a lot of power that they don't have, 542 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: seems I mean, yeah, it's again one of those double 543 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: like it's almost to me, not in the system of 544 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: a backhanded compliment of like oh yes I am the 545 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: gate ratios right, show you how r Yeah, but only 546 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: with your permission. Yeah. Yeah, this is a part that 547 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: I enjoyed because there are a lot of things. Of course, 548 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: this is across for me as a person who lives 549 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: in Grip in the United States, crossing borders and crossing time. 550 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: You know, Um, it's interesting to see a lot of 551 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: the things that live here and that have lived over 552 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: time as well. And there's a part where she says 553 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: all that things don't happen because of women, which is 554 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: I think objectively true. And if they're going to apply 555 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: those kinds of titles like the ones I just talked 556 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: about to women, then they should apply them to their mothers, 557 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: which is a thing that I hear in kind of 558 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: like twitter rhetoric, you know, over the time to time. 559 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: It's like you're saying these things about women in general, like, 560 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: but you know how many you have these very intimate, 561 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: direct relationships with women? Would you say that about them? 562 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: And would you say that directly to their faces? Yeah? Um, 563 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: I'm not so sure about that. So that was definitely 564 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: um interesting. She's describes women as more helpless than cows 565 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: and men as the greatest of all life forms in 566 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: the universe, and kind of her way of setting up 567 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: saying you have all this and you know, and look 568 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: at look at what we have, And apparently kind of 569 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: like comparisons with cows using them as a metaphor was 570 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: something that wasn't uncommon and that kind of language. So yeah, 571 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: I think going for a long time about all of 572 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: the things that she talked about in the way she 573 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: put it in the text, Like she also talked about 574 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: women in literature, and she also talked about women in 575 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: sex work. But in the end it kind of boiled 576 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: down to in the end of the text she said 577 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: she just praise for happiness for a woman. This is 578 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: what I want. I want them to have a better 579 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,439 Speaker 1: lot in life. I want them to live better lives. 580 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: I want them to be happy. And she basically positive, 581 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: like men, aren't men justice flawed as women, if not 582 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: more kind of in a way some top is what 583 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: she would the way she would put it. And at 584 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: the end of the day, she was countering this flawed 585 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: logic that women were by nature inferior and at fault 586 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: for everything, and they were deserving of blame and punishment 587 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: for all those things as well. And in it she 588 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: does seem to have a tone of righteous anger. So 589 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:32,720 Speaker 1: at least in O'Hanlon's translation. I did read a review 590 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,879 Speaker 1: that basically says that Tad Toby's militant tone was kind 591 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: of downplayed in the translation, and that a lot of 592 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: the metaphors became literal in the translation. So obviously there 593 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: are the normal pitfalls of translation. You know who actually 594 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: was the one who was doing the translating, and you 595 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: know they weren't situated in that context. They didn't live 596 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: at the time, and they didn't didn't experience the culture. 597 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 1: Definitely not in that way. Um So that was an 598 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: issue of translation. But obviously the only one that I 599 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: have access to as an actual reader is English translation. 600 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 1: But I do think that a lot of that righteous 601 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: anger got through at least even if I didn't necessarily 602 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: have access to situational and contextual meanings of in idioms 603 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: and metaphorical things. She definitely she was mad and with 604 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: good reason, and she had something to say, and she 605 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: said it. And in the book O'Hanlon and O'Hanlon's book 606 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: there's an essay like I said that kind of prefaced 607 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: the actual translation of the text. Oh Handlon mentions that 608 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: it wasn't until the eighteen sixties and eighteen seventies that 609 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: women in India began to write and publish insignificant numbers, 610 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: But there were a lot of things that were published 611 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: by women before. But she says, quote Tata Buys is 612 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: the first text that I know of for Western India 613 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: at least, in which a woman a dresses herself so 614 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: squarely and polemically at the question of women's relations with men. 615 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: Tata Bay's book was very controversial for his time in 616 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: challenging the Hindu religious scriptures as a source of women's oppression, 617 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: and a lot of the conversations around that issue and 618 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: around things she was talking about, like widow remarriage and 619 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: we're continued after she wrote it, of course, and continued 620 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 1: to this day. And she didn't publish another known work 621 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: after the book. Immediately following the publication of it, there 622 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: were newspapers that ran articles on it, kind of you know, 623 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: bad mouthing her, saying how could you do this? This 624 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: is wrong, and you know, ridicule her work. But Poule 625 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: did defend her not too long after it was published. 626 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: But the kind of way that sources have put it 627 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: is that all these people who were speaking out against 628 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: her were the ones who kept her from creating another work. 629 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: I think that's speculation. I think that could be for 630 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,919 Speaker 1: many reasons. But yeah, she that that's kind of how 631 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: it's how it's put. And Poole also later suggested that 632 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: all the criticism that she got because of it was 633 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: because the guys basically the guys felt hurt by it. 634 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 1: They felt called out, you know, like they were pointed 635 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: to and they were the ones who were publishing the 636 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 1: articles in the newspapers. Yeah, she died in nineteen ten. 637 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how she died, but this one work 638 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: is kind of her a pivotal thing and her as 639 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: a voice of feminism and as a voice who spoke 640 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: up for women's rights and positions and her society at 641 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: the time. Yeah. I do think it's really interesting reading 642 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: the quotes and hearing you say them that there are 643 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: obvious differences between like historical and cultural differences that they 644 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: do still resonate with me. And I remember being younger 645 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: when I didn't have like the nuances or like tools 646 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 1: or to state what I was feeling. I'd be like 647 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 1: a nine year old and I'd get in fights with 648 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: my mom of why are you the one that asked 649 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: to do this? Like all of the my brothers are capable, 650 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: my dad is capable. I don't understand why if one 651 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: of them wants ice cream in the middle of this movie, 652 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: which is a very specific memory I have, you're the 653 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: one that has to go up and get it, like 654 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: I don't. It's not fair. And you know, obviously there 655 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 1: were thaying complexities and nuances that I did not understand 656 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: at that time, but just kind of that similar idea 657 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 1: of what she's saying of like, uh, that double standard 658 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: and why are we it's just expecting this of women 659 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: and then blaming them for all evils. Yeah, I like 660 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: that she does call that out the way that this 661 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. How are you going to say the 662 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: powerless are the ones that are powerful and destroying things 663 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: when they've had again no pow or to make change. 664 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 1: How is it their fault when you're the ones in 665 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: charge and it's still trumbling. Like I do like her 666 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: calling out the irony of this can't be right. It 667 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,399 Speaker 1: can't it can't be both. It's one or the other, 668 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: so we need to stick to one. But yeah, I 669 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: think any I thought I thought of that dude throughout 670 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: this whole story kind of just reminds me, which makes 671 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,320 Speaker 1: me sad at the same time of like, oh God, 672 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: things haven't changed that much. I can't believe she was 673 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 1: so revolutionary, but it wasn't revolutionary to the point that 674 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: people were fighting then for those rights that we're still 675 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,800 Speaker 1: fighting for those same rights in different contexts because growing 676 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: up in a very religious home, that whole mandate of 677 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,399 Speaker 1: men are power men are representations of God and your 678 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: representations of His loved one that will take care of you. 679 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: And therefore this is the way the layout is and 680 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: you have to trust it no matter what with blind 681 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: belief and statement, and this is how this is gonna be. Okay, 682 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: everything will work out if you allow for this way. 683 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 1: And if something goes wrong, it's because you didn't do 684 00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: what we said when you were supposed to follow me, 685 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: as you know, because I have a penis. But like 686 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,240 Speaker 1: it's kind of this whole level of trying to figure 687 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: out how this system is still being upheld and we 688 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 1: know how and we know why, but at the same 689 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: time that it continues to be questioned and people keep 690 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,879 Speaker 1: getting angry, and then it just kind of fizzles out 691 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: and then kind of you know what I mean, Like 692 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 1: it just kind of not fizzles out, and that that 693 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,359 Speaker 1: one person comes out and then a new revolutionary has 694 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: to come out. And it's had this conversation repeatedly even 695 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: to like it's so cyclical, like I'm like talking about religion, 696 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: and we went from you know, marriage to this and 697 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: that and finally coming to the point of like, well 698 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,919 Speaker 1: maybe women should be a little more equal. Let's let's 699 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 1: let's give them that do to going. But we're that 700 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 1: this is what's wrong with our country. We have you know, 701 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: the old fashioned ways are gone and now, for the 702 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: lack of better terms, cancel culture is ruining our you know, 703 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: country type of conversation. And it's kind of like so 704 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: sad that it continues to be. I thought we already 705 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: got past this part. I think we've made progress here 706 00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 1: and I thought we were going to go to the 707 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 1: next session. It just seems so like, right, yeah, yeah, 708 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: I mean that's the it resonates with me, is the 709 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: fact that it does makes me both very tired and 710 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,240 Speaker 1: sad but also relieved. But yeah, because it's like, well, 711 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 1: the hundreds she was doing this, and I can still 712 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: relate to the issues she's speaking too in I mean, 713 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,799 Speaker 1: even the conversation of being childless, because I know that 714 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 1: was something that she had to talk about. It's okay, 715 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: a woman is not evil, a woman is not failing 716 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: because she did not have a child. Can we get 717 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 1: past this, Like even in that conversation, we still have 718 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: doubts about whether that's right or wrong, Like are you 719 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 1: actually doing are you actually a real woman fulfilling your duty? 720 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 1: If you didn't have a child. Yeah, you know, that's 721 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 1: still a conversation today. Many layers, too many layers to it, 722 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 1: there are. And I really enjoyed all the quotes that 723 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 1: I've read. I want to find a whole thing and 724 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 1: read it because I did appreciate kind of the what 725 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: felt like sarcasm almost was she I think at the 726 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: beginning of was she the beginning of snark maybe a 727 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,799 Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah, there was a lot of like satirical, 728 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 1: kind of like I don't Yeah, there was a lot 729 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: of language in there that to be enjoyed that was 730 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: pretty um, what would you call it, more artistic? You know, 731 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 1: she took a lot of artistic license with the language. 732 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,759 Speaker 1: And when you talked about your um, the specific ice 733 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: cream moment, she had a lot of that too. Where 734 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,719 Speaker 1: she was there was a lot of specifics that she 735 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,360 Speaker 1: used and the things that she had to do and 736 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: what she had to cook and and what her day 737 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,319 Speaker 1: to day looks like, you contended, she was speaking from 738 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: a point that was a very personal perspective in thinking 739 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: about what she had to do for a husband and 740 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: things that she probably saw other women specifically do for 741 00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: their husbands because that was kind of the standard practice, 742 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: and yeah, it's it's very Uh, it's it's worth it's 743 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: worth reading. It's not long either, um. I think in 744 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,400 Speaker 1: the in the translation of the book, it's like fifty 745 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:16,359 Speaker 1: yrself pages and there is even though, as reviews have said, 746 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 1: the essay that o'helln did is imperfect and it's kind 747 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: of the way that it contextualizes the things she was saying. 748 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 1: It does offer a lot of perspective and the things 749 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: that I am not well versed in, you know, when 750 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 1: it comes to hind do with it, when it comes 751 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: to cast when it comes to the ways that gender 752 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 1: relations worked back then, and the things that she she 753 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 1: had to challenge. It's definitely worth a read, and not 754 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,800 Speaker 1: only because of that, but also because it can relate 755 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:45,320 Speaker 1: to so many things that are happening today. Yes, I 756 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 1: want to I want to speak it out. I want 757 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 1: to speak it out as I always thank you for 758 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 1: bringing this to our attention, Eves. Is there anything else 759 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,799 Speaker 1: you wanted to add before we wrap up? Um? I 760 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,680 Speaker 1: don't think so. I guess just for like practically for 761 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: for listeners, I couldn't find it available online. I did 762 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 1: have to I got it from a library. Um, So, 763 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 1: just if anybody does. Practically, if anybody does actually want 764 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:11,480 Speaker 1: to read it, you'll probably have to seek it out 765 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: at a library, but it might be one near you. 766 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,520 Speaker 1: And even if it's not at your library, you might 767 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:17,879 Speaker 1: be able to get it through something like an inter 768 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: library aline, which is what I had to do for 769 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,800 Speaker 1: one for libraries. Yes, yes, suppose one for libraries, because 770 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,360 Speaker 1: I guess it's I often forget that, like people have 771 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,120 Speaker 1: to know how to access the thing to be able 772 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,279 Speaker 1: to read it. Um. And a lot of times things 773 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: that we talked about you can find them online, but 774 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 1: in this case, um, it's a little bit more difficult 775 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:39,799 Speaker 1: to get. But yeah, just that little tip, that's awesome. Yes, yes, 776 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,560 Speaker 1: I was sinking the praises of libraries the other day 777 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 1: because I I used to rent movies from them. Um 778 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: the best. You still can't. I love libraries, Yes, um, 779 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 1: well Eaves, we always love having you. I guess we're 780 00:45:54,680 --> 00:46:03,279 Speaker 1: approaching our twenty five episode somewhere around there in Champagne. Yes, 781 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,360 Speaker 1: that's a recipe for a headache. But while we're doing it, 782 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: it's gonna Where can the listeners find you? You can 783 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at Eves jeff Co. I'm on 784 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:20,160 Speaker 1: Instagram at not Apologizing. You can also find me on 785 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,160 Speaker 1: the shows This Day in History Class and on the 786 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 1: podcast I'm Popular and Yeah, that's it. That's it. Well. 787 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:30,800 Speaker 1: Also check those out for sure listeners if you haven't, 788 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 1: but you can also of course hear Eves on this 789 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,799 Speaker 1: very show and if you would like to contact as 790 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 1: you can. Our email is Steffide mom Stuff at iHeart 791 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,359 Speaker 1: media dot com. You can find us on Twitter at 792 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at stuff I Never 793 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,240 Speaker 1: Told You. Thanks as always to your super producer Christina, 794 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: thank you, and thanks to you for listening Stuff I 795 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,040 Speaker 1: Never Told You Protection of I Hire Radio. For more 796 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:51,840 Speaker 1: podcast from my Heart Radio, visit that How Are You 797 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: app Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite 798 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:54,360 Speaker 1: ships