WEBVTT - Class & Poverty Shaming w/ Mary O’Hara 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.560 Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:10.320 Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. The federal minimum 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:12.119 which has been the same for more than a decade, 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:13.920 and you're kind of like, well, when you look at 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:18.640 the numbers, had it just followed inflation from it will 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:21.320 be like in all, which is what it should be, 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:25.319 you know. But that's done to push and push and 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:35.720 pushing this idea of people being undeserved. Hello everyone, and 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:42.320 welcome to Laverne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox. So I 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:47.400 believe it was January. I remember being in line, the 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:52.199 very long line that day at housing court, and tears 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:55.240 started streaming down my face. I was trying to keep 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:59.520 it together, but I was completely falling apart. One of 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:04.280 my greatest spheres has always been becoming homeless. And here 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:08.759 I was holding an eviction notice in my hand that 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:10.880 the sheriff had put on my door, and all my 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:15.440 neighbors had seen, and I was just crying and just 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:18.919 kind of losing my my my ship. I was thirty 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:20.880 seven years old and couldn't pay my rent in a 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.120 low income building. I was living in a UM government 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.760 subsidized low income building at the time in Manhattan, and 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:29.520 the whole point of the building is to keep people 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:32.960 from becoming homeless, and here I was unable to pay rent. 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:38.160 There I just felt, um, like all of the sort 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:41.040 of narratives around being a piece of ship because I 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.480 was poor and being lazy, even though I was working 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.000 really hard at the time, like a lot of it 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:49.040 was unpaid work, so I knew I wasn't lazy, but 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:53.000 I was still internalizing like this narrative, and then like 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:56.920 all the internalized racism too. It was just a ship 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:00.680 storm of shame and a ship storm of I'm not enough. 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:03.560 And Brine Brown tells us. A shame functions in two 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.840 different ways. It tells us that we're not enough, and um, 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.200 if we're able to get over that, it says, you know, 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:11.000 who do you think you are? You're too big for 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.600 your bitches, And in that moment, I was feeling both, 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:16.760 you know, pursuing this dream of wanting to be an actor. 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.040 I mean, you're a black transperson. There's never been a 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:22.880 famous black transactor. I mean, you are insane and delusional, 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:29.440 and now you're about to be homeless. It was really scary. 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:33.000 It was very, very scary, and I was able to 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:35.519 meet with the lawyer and we were able to work 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:37.280 out a payment plan and I was able to catch 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:42.200 up um on my rent. And the sad thing is 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:46.360 that two years later, in um February, I was there again. 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.080 I was there in housing court another time. I was 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:51.400 thirty nine, I was about to turn forty, and it 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:58.920 was just like, what's going on. The shame that I have, 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.400 The shame that still sort of losing my body, around 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:05.000 not being able to support myself, around being poor, is 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:10.000 really really deep inside me um till this day. And 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.840 now I literally epitomized the American dream. People are like, well, 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.679 if Laverne Costs can do it, why can't you do it? 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.440 And I'm really critical of those narratives because I know 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:22.880 that even though it was tenuous that I've I've made 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.120 it this far. I know that like a lot of 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:30.800 privilege allowed me to be where I'm at today. And so, yeah, 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:34.440 a lot of stuff that I'm working through. And there 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.280 is a woman named Mary O'Hara who happened to write 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:41.400 a book. Mary O'Hara is an award winning journalist, author 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:44.840 and producer. She is a graduate of Cambridge University and 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:48.920 a former full right scholar at UC Berkeley. Mary is 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.600 the author of two books, one of which is The 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:56.200 Shame Game, Overturning the toxic poverty narrative, and its founder 0:03:56.280 --> 0:04:01.400 of the multi platform anti poverty initiative project Twisted. In 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.240 she was named Best Foreign Columnist at the Southern California 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:16.080 Journalism Awards. Please enjoy my conversation with Mary O'Hara. Hello, 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:20.640 Mary O'Hara, Welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today? 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:23.960 You know, I'm done, okay, not too about all things considered. 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.680 Very good, very good. I am so excited to have 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.479 you here today because, um, this is something I think 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:33.640 about all the time. I'm always always thinking about shame. 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:38.440 I'm thinking about It's been a huge issue in my 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.680 life in a lot of different ways. Shame around being 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:44.960 trans shame around raised, and the shame around class that 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:49.880 I've internalized is really really deep, and it's something that 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.880 even as I'm no longer poor and working class, it's 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.720 something that persists, which is really interesting. What I know 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.360 about shame is that so much of shame it's about 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.000 the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves and the stories 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:06.800 that we've internalized from structures, and so can we start, 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:09.880 can you tell us from your research, from your work, 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:14.720 what the predominant narrative around poverty is that can be 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:18.680 shaming for a lot of people. Yeah. Sure. First of all, 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.120 I'm so glad to be on this podcast. I think 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:23.279 it's a great show. I love how it is with 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:26.240 matters that matter to me, So I'm really pleased to 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.240 be here. Thank you. I appreciate that well. As a 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.080 person with lived experience of poverty myself, I grew up 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:36.000 in poverty as a child and young person, I completely 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.960 hear what you're saying about the shame that you carry 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.320 with you even when you've moved beyond that situation. What 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:45.719 it does now part of the reason that we feel 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:50.599 that shame is because it permeates our cultures. It runs 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:56.480 through the politics, the economics, the entertainment, the media, it's everywhere. 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:01.480 And essentially what the dominant poverty the narrative, the story 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.240 we're told in the US and the UK, the two 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.200 countries I'm interested in, is that if you are poor, 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.640 it's your fault. Right, you must be poor because you 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.799 are lazy, you are idle, You've made a lifestyle choice 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.559 apparently to be poor. According to this narrative, The flip 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.839 side of that narrative is that people who are wealthy 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.320 um are so purely because of their own efforts, not 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.719 that they've been assisted by anyone or anything. It's done 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:32.760 to them and their talents. And that's a very tantalizing 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:38.000 aspect of the narrative because it reinforces the idea that 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:42.400 if you are poor, you're poor because you are economically 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:44.440 supposed to be poor because you're not doing anything about 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:48.760 it and all of that. Of course it's absolute nonsense, 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:53.800 but it's a powerful, powerful story. Yeah, it makes me 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:55.840 think about my own life as well. And there was 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:59.640 there was a point my mother put herself through school 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:03.000 while she was raising us, through her undergraduate work while 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:04.600 she was raising us. And I remember there was one 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.960 point when we were kids that we had we had 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.880 a paper route that so as a family, we like 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.080 went in sort of delivered papers, and then we also 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:19.200 collected bottles and cans so that we could um, you know, 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:21.720 sort of turn them in to be recycled to get 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.400 money for that. And then my mother had a job 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:27.640 working as the church secretary, and she had like another 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:30.520 job to which I forget what it was. Cirly, so 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:35.000 I'm like, wait, and I think about the experiences of 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.920 like what people say, poor people are just lazy. I'm like, 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.000 wait a minute. My mother had like four jobs at 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:45.200 one point and we were still struggling, and we were 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:49.920 unwelfare at one point, and there was such shame around that. 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.840 As an adult too, I um lived in government subsidized 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.080 housing for many years, which really saved my life. And 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.480 I was on Medicaid, which is um in the United 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.920 States health care for poor people. And it's really easy 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.320 to um let your Medicaid slip because you have to 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.560 like fill out new information every year and it has 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.880 to be exactly right, and it's very intense, and so 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:17.040 it's just and I was thinking, when I was in 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:19.800 living in government subcess housing and I was on Medicaid, 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.200 I was actually working very hard to So it's like 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.880 I'm aware of that narrative and I internalized that narrative. 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:30.680 And for me, so much of my experience as a 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.520 poor person as a child and as an adult is like, 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:36.800 let's not let people know that you're poor. Let's like 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:42.160 project that I am, you know, looking good and everything 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:44.720 is okay. My mother would always say that. My grandmother 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:48.160 would say make sure that your rent is paid, if 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:50.720 your lights are turned off, if your water is turned off, 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:53.840 no one knows that. But if your rent isn't paid, 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:56.760 you're on the street and everyone will know. So even 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:59.920 in that narrative, it's like it's about not letting people 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:04.240 know that you're struggling, and that is the shame of it, 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.400 Like I'm not enough and people are going to find out. Well, 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:11.320 that's absolutely right. It's completely fundamental to the experience of 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:15.360 being poor is that you're ashamed of being poor. I mean, 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:18.640 when you ask people who fit the definition of what 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.280 it is to be poor if they're poor, people will 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:25.560 usually say no, oh no, I'm I'm I'm okay, I'm okay. Now, 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.120 the problem with that is it then becomes easy to 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:30.520 underestimate the problem, to think that it's not as big 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:36.319 a problem as it is. But it profoundly affects us psychologically, emotionally. 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:39.520 To not be able to provide for ourselves and provide 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:42.760 for our family is one of the most sort of 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.480 soul destroying things that a person can live with. You 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:48.720 go out into your community, you don't want people to 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.840 think that you're a bad mother or you know that 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:54.480 you're just not pulling your weight or you haven't pulled 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:58.640 up your bootstraps, as that ridiculous saying goes, and you 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.439 carry it with you. It's a I don't know, it's 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:04.440 like a burden that sort of lives inside you. It 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.280 runs through you when you when you can leave poverty, 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:11.680 but poverty never leaves you. Yeah, it stays with you. 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.880 And you know, much like yourself. I grew up in 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:18.400 public housing in the North of Ireland, which is part 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:23.080 of the UK, and my parents relied on the welfare system, 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:27.360 the safety net that we had government subsidized housing, and 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:31.080 we lived around other poor and low income people because 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.920 that's what happens that people you're surrounded by. Now, there's 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:36.440 a lot of support in those communities. People do an 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.640 awful lot to help each other. They're very resilient, but 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:44.680 they also understand that the wider society season is different. 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.000 I mean, even as a five or six year old, um, 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:50.320 I knew something wasn't quite right. I knew we weren't 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.160 like other people. And I you know, we know from 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.680 the research. I know from my work that the long 0:10:55.760 --> 0:11:00.240 term impacts of that are profound, and you know, to 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.920 all intents and purposes, I'm a successful person. You know 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:05.480 I've done okay in life, but you bet that I 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:09.080 worry about money all the time, even when I shouldn't 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.200 be thinking about it. It just stays with me because 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:16.960 having nothing or next to nothing in a culture that 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:21.840 lionizes wealth and success is an extraordinary thing to try 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:24.000 to liver with it. So it's not just that you're 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.680 deprived of material things, right, It's not just like you 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.640 can't make your bills from time to time, or that 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.920 you can't put food on the table. It's that you're 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:37.600 not deemed to be fully human in a society where 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:42.800 you're perpetually demonized for the circumstances that you find yourself in. 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:45.800 And poor people and low income people are in those 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:49.679 circumstances because we exist in systems that keep us are 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.240 they're designed to keep poor people poor. Like you say, 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.680 the welfare system, how many hoops do you have to 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.000 jump through to prove that you're in desperate need? And 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:02.680 how much energy does that take away from the things 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:06.160 that you know would probably help you um a bit 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:08.400 more in your day to day life. Um, you turn 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.920 up with the welfare office, you're made to feel like 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.040 you're they're with the begging bowl um that you're not 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:19.440 entitled to be there. And when you think about tens 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.800 and tens of thousands of people are working per just 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:26.439 like your mother would have been, people holding down jobs 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:29.880 that are really badly paid, whilst the people who own 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:33.080 those companies and corporations line their own pockets and you know, 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:38.240 celebrate tax breaks. I mean, it's an extraordinarily unfair system, 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:43.560 and it's morally wrong and it is inhumane. One of 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:47.360 the most um, I think agregious, I think is the 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:52.360 right word. Disturbing, egregious, stunning. Examples of this is are 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:57.000 here in the United States are largest employer, Walmart. Many 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:01.640 of the employees of Walmart have to go on snap 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.480 on food stands because the wages that they're making at 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:09.959 the largest employer in the country are not enough wages 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:15.720 for them to be able to eat. And the Walton 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.480 family is one of the wealthiest families obviously in the country. 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:24.719 So that kind of that disparity, and we we can 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.480 talk about other corporations as well here in the United 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.880 States that you know, do union busting and do all 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.719 sorts of things, and they're getting very very wealthy at 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:35.680 the at the top, and then their workers are barely 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.959 surviving and they're working very hard, and we still call 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:42.280 those people lazy. So it's like I initially wanted to 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:44.840 have this conversation to talk about the shame part of it, 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:47.920 but it's like the policy piece of it, and the 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:52.199 shame that we internalize is so constantly reinforced. I was 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.199 thinking about the materialism too, because it's also not just 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.640 about not having access to material, you know, things, it's 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.960 also culture. It also like if you can't afford to 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:06.040 go to the movies and everyone's referencing this movie, it's 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.840 like you're outside of culture. And so much of culture 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.200 here in the United States is about like what we've 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:15.720 consumed and being sort of outside of that. It's you're 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:19.320 outside of of culture in general. But I feel like 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:21.840 the Internet, I do feel like there's a shift in 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:26.280 young people talking about like having a critical relationship to 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:30.760 billionaires and corporations and having a critical relationship to wealth 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.760 now more than you know, maybe ten years ago. I 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.280 don't do you feel the shift happening? Well, this is 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:41.440 a really interesting aspect of this. My latest boat, which 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:45.400 obviously called The Sham Game, came out of a wider 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:50.000 anti poverty project that I run called Project Twisted, where 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:52.600 for the past three and a half years I've been 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:59.520 connecting with organizations, grassroots researchers, entertainers, people across the culture 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:04.960 to try and challenge this dominant narrative. As part of that, 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.440 we worked with a lot of young people. Were run 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:12.160 live events where young people presented to live audiences and 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.880 theaters their ideas for how we can change things, you know, 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:21.600 And it was absolutely apparent to me that these kids 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.880 got it. They understood, they could see with clear eyes. 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:29.480 They're not old enough to have been sort of made 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:32.480 cynical about the world, you know. The same kind of 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.480 kids are in the environmentalism, for instance. They got the 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:40.320 stigma of poverty, they got the shame of poverty, and 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.800 they really wanted to talk about it and they really 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.040 wanted to challenge it. And after we held our events, 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.160 those young people went out and set up their own 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:54.040 little projects and online and you know, media projects. They 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.440 did a census to look at what young people's attitudes were. 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.120 I think absolutely they're more willing and not take this 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:05.040 sitting down. I also think that this generation is in 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.600 a moment of change more generally, and that includes the 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:12.320 movement around racism, around women's rights, around trans writes about 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.360 all of this. You know, it's a very interesting moment 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.880 in the culture in terms of elevating voices of people 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:23.200 who have been oppressed and suppressed for so long and 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.200 so successfully that they're just baiting down. And I think 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.720 young people are going to screw this. You know, we're 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.440 being told that we're going to have less in our 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:35.040 bank accounts than previous generations. We're told we can't afford 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:37.440 to buy our own home and raise a family without 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:41.960 doing four jobs. So yeah, I think young people are helping, 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:44.760 and not include younger kind of policy makers as well, 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.280 who have been reshipping the conversation on this the last 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:52.120 eighteen months has been fascinating. Younger policy makers, aligned with 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:57.000 younger grassroots activists, allied with others who have been working 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.160 in this arena for a long time, understand that in 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.880 many ways it's a make or break situation. The you know, 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.040 the billionaire wealth over the course of the pandemic through 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:09.600 the roof, absolutely through the roof. You know, we had 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.320 this whole discourse about essential workers and how important they are. 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.359 And guess what we realized our society would fall apart 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.760 without these people we just pay them not a to 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:23.640 do it. And I think there's a grown realization that 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:28.840 that is not just unsustainable, but it's morally screwed up. 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:35.080 And both that and poverty are political choices. Poverty doesn't 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:40.600 exist because people want to be poor. It's a political choice. 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:43.959 And for instance, there are welfare systems and other wealthy 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.400 nations around the world that do create a safety net 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.520 for people. You know, it's not about pol your bootstraps up. 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:53.359 It's about being given a safety net that becomes a 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:57.320 springboard that helps you. And you know what, it helps 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.920 the wider society. It is the public good. It's good 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.320 for everyone if people at the top pay their fair 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:06.639 share of tax and people at the bottom of the 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:10.800 social scale aren't way down with the sorts of burdens 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.919 that cause genuine tragedies and people's lives. You know, you 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:15.919 get a big medical bill, you come pit, you're screwed, 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.200 you lose your heyes, you're living out of your car suddenly, 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:23.160 it's you know, these have huge traumifications. Yeah, it's there's 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.560 just there's so much there. I'm sure you're familiar with 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.320 the pro publica report that just came out about the 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.439 wealthiest I think the wealthiest men because they're all men 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.360 in the world and what they're what they're paying taxes. 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:40.520 I pay more money in taxes than the richest people 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:44.439 in the world who are billionaires. Everybody out, everybody is 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:46.639 paying more money than the richest people in the world 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.199 in taxes. Yes, So the pro public A report and 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.560 a lot of the others that have come out UM, 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.800 certainly over the past six months are very clear. It 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:56.840 was interesting that you were looking at a decade as 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:04.200 your barometer for saying shifting that UM, it's exponentially growing. UM. 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:07.879 Who needs that much money? Who needs that much? You 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:11.000 don't need it. What's been interesting to me in the 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.600 past few months is that reports like this come out 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:15.439 all the time. I know this because they're always in 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:18.600 my inbox. So the nerd that is me rummage in 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:20.960 a run and these things is aware of it. And 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:22.880 sometimes I wanted to bang my head off a wall 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:25.800 because I'm like, why is it everybody else hearing about this? UM? 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.960 But I think the pandemic is enabled more people to 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:32.160 become aware of this because it's just being reported more 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:35.320 and then people are going to understand what We'll hold 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:39.200 on a minute, so I'm being told that taxpayers are 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:43.920 subsidized in me because I need snap, I need food stamps. 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:46.920 But the organization that should be paying me a living 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.560 wage has had a huge tax brick. But they're not 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:54.560 painted in the same light. They're not painted as intergenerational 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.000 wealth pilferers, you know what I mean. It's just it's 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:01.000 so hypocritical on every level, and they get those tax 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.760 breaks and they don't actually raise wages. I think COVID 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:07.199 is a really interesting conversation to have because a lot 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:09.920 of the initial here in the United States anyway, the 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:14.000 initially PPP loans that were given to businesses were so 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.480 they would not lay off workers, right so that they 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:18.920 would be able to retain their workforce. And we saw 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:22.920 that that did not happen often that those workers were 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.440 not paid more. And then too, what has happened because 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.560 we had direct aid? I just I found this um 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:34.000 this this report from the Urban Institute, a prominent liberal 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.760 leaning think tank in Washington, this week projects poverty levels 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:40.320 in the US will sit at seven point seven percent 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:43.880 through the end of one down from thirteen point nine. 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:48.439 The decline can be attributed to a suite of policies, 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:54.040 including stimulus checks, enhance unemployment insurance payments and eligibility supplemental 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:59.880 nutrition Assistance Program SNAP payments, and refundable child tax credits. 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:06.880 So during a global pandemic, because people absolutely needed assistance 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:11.040 and insisted on it, And ironically, we had a Republican 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:14.760 president here in the United States who insisted on giving 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:20.200 direct checks to people that we were able to reduce poverty. 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:22.840 And if we can do it during a pandemic, why 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:24.639 can't we do it all the time? I mean, I 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:26.640 think it sort of blows up the myth. Now we're 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:29.480 talking about inflation, right, but like so that the inflation 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:32.560 conversation comes up whenever we want to sort of, you know, 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:35.639 invest in people. How do you think the impact of 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:40.359 COVID has changed the conversation or hasn't changed the conversation 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:44.040 around poverty. Well, it's a really really interesting one because 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:46.840 it's still fluid. We don't know what the endpoint is 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:49.720 going to be. But one of the things that definitely 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:53.440 happened in the United States and in other wealthy countries 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:57.000 that harbor this belief in the sort of, you know, 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:00.600 the laziness of poor people is the that make meant 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.600 that a lot of people who really believed that everything 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:05.480 they achieved in their lives was down to just them 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:10.159 and their own hard work suddenly realized that ship the 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:13.840 system doesn't necessarily work for everybody, and people who perhaps 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:18.560 had never been in financial difficulty before suddenly found themselves 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:23.720 in deep financial difficulty. That changes the conversation, because the 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:28.240 tantalizing thing about the poverty narrative is that divides people, 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:31.240 It polarizes people. It helps a certain group of society 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:33.760 believe that they deserve everything they have, and if you 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:38.040 don't have, you are undeserving. The last eighteen months is 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:40.640 blown that out of the water, because it's patently obvious 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:44.920 that we rely on systems to help us, to help 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:48.720 all of us. And we've been fortunate enough that the 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:51.960 discourse was beginning to shift a little bit before there 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:54.840 was more of a high profile given to questions around 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:57.399 poverty and what it does to people, on how we 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:00.280 can help people, and now we've had an opportunity ready 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:03.840 to do that. And obviously, going forward, their predictions that 0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:07.560 child poverty in America could be reduced by five million, 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.520 which I mean that is a serious amount of children 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:14.879 as a direct result of policies that two years ago 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:18.239 would have been knocked out of the water because they 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:23.240 would have been deemed as reinforcing welfare dependency. And it's 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:28.960 become harder um too pump out that particular narrative because 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:31.480 it's doom what it's designed to do, which is to 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:34.720 lift people out of poverty and to give them a 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:40.200 fighting chance. So we're now gathering evidence that really really matters, 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:43.159 and we're saying what people do with the money that 0:23:43.280 --> 0:23:46.600 they get, and we're able to talk about the fact that, oh, 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:49.680 you know, when all the politicians and think tanks were 0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:51.800 saying that if you give poor people money, they'll just 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.240 go out and blow it on drugs and gambling. Well 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:56.480 guess what. That does not happen. They spend it on 0:23:56.520 --> 0:23:59.480