Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland
Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. The federal minimum
Speaker 1: which has been the same for more than a decade,
Speaker 1: and you're kind of like, well, when you look at
Speaker 1: the numbers, had it just followed inflation from it will
Speaker 1: be like in all, which is what it should be,
Speaker 1: you know. But that's done to push and push and
Speaker 1: pushing this idea of people being undeserved. Hello everyone, and
Speaker 1: welcome to Laverne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox. So I
Speaker 1: believe it was January. I remember being in line, the
Speaker 1: very long line that day at housing court, and tears
Speaker 1: started streaming down my face. I was trying to keep
Speaker 1: it together, but I was completely falling apart. One of
Speaker 1: my greatest spheres has always been becoming homeless. And here
Speaker 1: I was holding an eviction notice in my hand that
Speaker 1: the sheriff had put on my door, and all my
Speaker 1: neighbors had seen, and I was just crying and just
Speaker 1: kind of losing my my my ship. I was thirty
Speaker 1: seven years old and couldn't pay my rent in a
Speaker 1: low income building. I was living in a UM government
Speaker 1: subsidized low income building at the time in Manhattan, and
Speaker 1: the whole point of the building is to keep people
Speaker 1: from becoming homeless, and here I was unable to pay rent.
Speaker 1: There I just felt, um, like all of the sort
Speaker 1: of narratives around being a piece of ship because I
Speaker 1: was poor and being lazy, even though I was working
Speaker 1: really hard at the time, like a lot of it
Speaker 1: was unpaid work, so I knew I wasn't lazy, but
Speaker 1: I was still internalizing like this narrative, and then like
Speaker 1: all the internalized racism too. It was just a ship
Speaker 1: storm of shame and a ship storm of I'm not enough.
Speaker 1: And Brine Brown tells us. A shame functions in two
Speaker 1: different ways. It tells us that we're not enough, and um,
Speaker 1: if we're able to get over that, it says, you know,
Speaker 1: who do you think you are? You're too big for
Speaker 1: your bitches, And in that moment, I was feeling both,
Speaker 1: you know, pursuing this dream of wanting to be an actor.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're a black transperson. There's never been a
Speaker 1: famous black transactor. I mean, you are insane and delusional,
Speaker 1: and now you're about to be homeless. It was really scary.
Speaker 1: It was very, very scary, and I was able to
Speaker 1: meet with the lawyer and we were able to work
Speaker 1: out a payment plan and I was able to catch
Speaker 1: up um on my rent. And the sad thing is
Speaker 1: that two years later, in um February, I was there again.
Speaker 1: I was there in housing court another time. I was
Speaker 1: thirty nine, I was about to turn forty, and it
Speaker 1: was just like, what's going on. The shame that I have,
Speaker 1: The shame that still sort of losing my body, around
Speaker 1: not being able to support myself, around being poor, is
Speaker 1: really really deep inside me um till this day. And
Speaker 1: now I literally epitomized the American dream. People are like, well,
Speaker 1: if Laverne Costs can do it, why can't you do it?
Speaker 1: And I'm really critical of those narratives because I know
Speaker 1: that even though it was tenuous that I've I've made
Speaker 1: it this far. I know that like a lot of
Speaker 1: privilege allowed me to be where I'm at today. And so, yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that I'm working through. And there
Speaker 1: is a woman named Mary O'Hara who happened to write
Speaker 1: a book. Mary O'Hara is an award winning journalist, author
Speaker 1: and producer. She is a graduate of Cambridge University and
Speaker 1: a former full right scholar at UC Berkeley. Mary is
Speaker 1: the author of two books, one of which is The
Speaker 1: Shame Game, Overturning the toxic poverty narrative, and its founder
Speaker 1: of the multi platform anti poverty initiative project Twisted. In
Speaker 1: she was named Best Foreign Columnist at the Southern California
Speaker 1: Journalism Awards. Please enjoy my conversation with Mary O'Hara. Hello,
Speaker 1: Mary O'Hara, Welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today?
Speaker 1: You know, I'm done, okay, not too about all things considered.
Speaker 1: Very good, very good. I am so excited to have
Speaker 1: you here today because, um, this is something I think
Speaker 1: about all the time. I'm always always thinking about shame.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about It's been a huge issue in my
Speaker 1: life in a lot of different ways. Shame around being
Speaker 1: trans shame around raised, and the shame around class that
Speaker 1: I've internalized is really really deep, and it's something that
Speaker 1: even as I'm no longer poor and working class, it's
Speaker 1: something that persists, which is really interesting. What I know
Speaker 1: about shame is that so much of shame it's about
Speaker 1: the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves and the stories
Speaker 1: that we've internalized from structures, and so can we start,
Speaker 1: can you tell us from your research, from your work,
Speaker 1: what the predominant narrative around poverty is that can be
Speaker 1: shaming for a lot of people. Yeah. Sure. First of all,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad to be on this podcast. I think
Speaker 1: it's a great show. I love how it is with
Speaker 1: matters that matter to me, So I'm really pleased to
Speaker 1: be here. Thank you. I appreciate that well. As a
Speaker 1: person with lived experience of poverty myself, I grew up
Speaker 1: in poverty as a child and young person, I completely
Speaker 1: hear what you're saying about the shame that you carry
Speaker 1: with you even when you've moved beyond that situation. What
Speaker 1: it does now part of the reason that we feel
Speaker 1: that shame is because it permeates our cultures. It runs
Speaker 1: through the politics, the economics, the entertainment, the media, it's everywhere.
Speaker 1: And essentially what the dominant poverty the narrative, the story
Speaker 1: we're told in the US and the UK, the two
Speaker 1: countries I'm interested in, is that if you are poor,
Speaker 1: it's your fault. Right, you must be poor because you
Speaker 1: are lazy, you are idle, You've made a lifestyle choice
Speaker 1: apparently to be poor. According to this narrative, The flip
Speaker 1: side of that narrative is that people who are wealthy
Speaker 1: um are so purely because of their own efforts, not
Speaker 1: that they've been assisted by anyone or anything. It's done
Speaker 1: to them and their talents. And that's a very tantalizing
Speaker 1: aspect of the narrative because it reinforces the idea that
Speaker 1: if you are poor, you're poor because you are economically
Speaker 1: supposed to be poor because you're not doing anything about
Speaker 1: it and all of that. Of course it's absolute nonsense,
Speaker 1: but it's a powerful, powerful story. Yeah, it makes me
Speaker 1: think about my own life as well. And there was
Speaker 1: there was a point my mother put herself through school
Speaker 1: while she was raising us, through her undergraduate work while
Speaker 1: she was raising us. And I remember there was one
Speaker 1: point when we were kids that we had we had
Speaker 1: a paper route that so as a family, we like
Speaker 1: went in sort of delivered papers, and then we also
Speaker 1: collected bottles and cans so that we could um, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of turn them in to be recycled to get
Speaker 1: money for that. And then my mother had a job
Speaker 1: working as the church secretary, and she had like another
Speaker 1: job to which I forget what it was. Cirly, so
Speaker 1: I'm like, wait, and I think about the experiences of
Speaker 1: like what people say, poor people are just lazy. I'm like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute. My mother had like four jobs at
Speaker 1: one point and we were still struggling, and we were
Speaker 1: unwelfare at one point, and there was such shame around that.
Speaker 1: As an adult too, I um lived in government subsidized
Speaker 1: housing for many years, which really saved my life. And
Speaker 1: I was on Medicaid, which is um in the United
Speaker 1: States health care for poor people. And it's really easy
Speaker 1: to um let your Medicaid slip because you have to
Speaker 1: like fill out new information every year and it has
Speaker 1: to be exactly right, and it's very intense, and so
Speaker 1: it's just and I was thinking, when I was in
Speaker 1: living in government subcess housing and I was on Medicaid,
Speaker 1: I was actually working very hard to So it's like
Speaker 1: I'm aware of that narrative and I internalized that narrative.
Speaker 1: And for me, so much of my experience as a
Speaker 1: poor person as a child and as an adult is like,
Speaker 1: let's not let people know that you're poor. Let's like
Speaker 1: project that I am, you know, looking good and everything
Speaker 1: is okay. My mother would always say that. My grandmother
Speaker 1: would say make sure that your rent is paid, if
Speaker 1: your lights are turned off, if your water is turned off,
Speaker 1: no one knows that. But if your rent isn't paid,
Speaker 1: you're on the street and everyone will know. So even
Speaker 1: in that narrative, it's like it's about not letting people
Speaker 1: know that you're struggling, and that is the shame of it,
Speaker 1: Like I'm not enough and people are going to find out. Well,
Speaker 1: that's absolutely right. It's completely fundamental to the experience of
Speaker 1: being poor is that you're ashamed of being poor. I mean,
Speaker 1: when you ask people who fit the definition of what
Speaker 1: it is to be poor if they're poor, people will
Speaker 1: usually say no, oh no, I'm I'm I'm okay, I'm okay. Now,
Speaker 1: the problem with that is it then becomes easy to
Speaker 1: underestimate the problem, to think that it's not as big
Speaker 1: a problem as it is. But it profoundly affects us psychologically, emotionally.
Speaker 1: To not be able to provide for ourselves and provide
Speaker 1: for our family is one of the most sort of
Speaker 1: soul destroying things that a person can live with. You
Speaker 1: go out into your community, you don't want people to
Speaker 1: think that you're a bad mother or you know that
Speaker 1: you're just not pulling your weight or you haven't pulled
Speaker 1: up your bootstraps, as that ridiculous saying goes, and you
Speaker 1: carry it with you. It's a I don't know, it's
Speaker 1: like a burden that sort of lives inside you. It
Speaker 1: runs through you when you when you can leave poverty,
Speaker 1: but poverty never leaves you. Yeah, it stays with you.
Speaker 1: And you know, much like yourself. I grew up in
Speaker 1: public housing in the North of Ireland, which is part
Speaker 1: of the UK, and my parents relied on the welfare system,
Speaker 1: the safety net that we had government subsidized housing, and
Speaker 1: we lived around other poor and low income people because
Speaker 1: that's what happens that people you're surrounded by. Now, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of support in those communities. People do an
Speaker 1: awful lot to help each other. They're very resilient, but
Speaker 1: they also understand that the wider society season is different.
Speaker 1: I mean, even as a five or six year old, um,
Speaker 1: I knew something wasn't quite right. I knew we weren't
Speaker 1: like other people. And I you know, we know from
Speaker 1: the research. I know from my work that the long
Speaker 1: term impacts of that are profound, and you know, to
Speaker 1: all intents and purposes, I'm a successful person. You know
Speaker 1: I've done okay in life, but you bet that I
Speaker 1: worry about money all the time, even when I shouldn't
Speaker 1: be thinking about it. It just stays with me because
Speaker 1: having nothing or next to nothing in a culture that
Speaker 1: lionizes wealth and success is an extraordinary thing to try
Speaker 1: to liver with it. So it's not just that you're
Speaker 1: deprived of material things, right, It's not just like you
Speaker 1: can't make your bills from time to time, or that
Speaker 1: you can't put food on the table. It's that you're
Speaker 1: not deemed to be fully human in a society where
Speaker 1: you're perpetually demonized for the circumstances that you find yourself in.
Speaker 1: And poor people and low income people are in those
Speaker 1: circumstances because we exist in systems that keep us are
Speaker 1: they're designed to keep poor people poor. Like you say,
Speaker 1: the welfare system, how many hoops do you have to
Speaker 1: jump through to prove that you're in desperate need? And
Speaker 1: how much energy does that take away from the things
Speaker 1: that you know would probably help you um a bit
Speaker 1: more in your day to day life. Um, you turn
Speaker 1: up with the welfare office, you're made to feel like
Speaker 1: you're they're with the begging bowl um that you're not
Speaker 1: entitled to be there. And when you think about tens
Speaker 1: and tens of thousands of people are working per just
Speaker 1: like your mother would have been, people holding down jobs
Speaker 1: that are really badly paid, whilst the people who own
Speaker 1: those companies and corporations line their own pockets and you know,
Speaker 1: celebrate tax breaks. I mean, it's an extraordinarily unfair system,
Speaker 1: and it's morally wrong and it is inhumane. One of
Speaker 1: the most um, I think agregious, I think is the
Speaker 1: right word. Disturbing, egregious, stunning. Examples of this is are
Speaker 1: here in the United States are largest employer, Walmart. Many
Speaker 1: of the employees of Walmart have to go on snap
Speaker 1: on food stands because the wages that they're making at
Speaker 1: the largest employer in the country are not enough wages
Speaker 1: for them to be able to eat. And the Walton
Speaker 1: family is one of the wealthiest families obviously in the country.
Speaker 1: So that kind of that disparity, and we we can
Speaker 1: talk about other corporations as well here in the United
Speaker 1: States that you know, do union busting and do all
Speaker 1: sorts of things, and they're getting very very wealthy at
Speaker 1: the at the top, and then their workers are barely
Speaker 1: surviving and they're working very hard, and we still call
Speaker 1: those people lazy. So it's like I initially wanted to
Speaker 1: have this conversation to talk about the shame part of it,
Speaker 1: but it's like the policy piece of it, and the
Speaker 1: shame that we internalize is so constantly reinforced. I was
Speaker 1: thinking about the materialism too, because it's also not just
Speaker 1: about not having access to material, you know, things, it's
Speaker 1: also culture. It also like if you can't afford to
Speaker 1: go to the movies and everyone's referencing this movie, it's
Speaker 1: like you're outside of culture. And so much of culture
Speaker 1: here in the United States is about like what we've
Speaker 1: consumed and being sort of outside of that. It's you're
Speaker 1: outside of of culture in general. But I feel like
Speaker 1: the Internet, I do feel like there's a shift in
Speaker 1: young people talking about like having a critical relationship to
Speaker 1: billionaires and corporations and having a critical relationship to wealth
Speaker 1: now more than you know, maybe ten years ago. I
Speaker 1: don't do you feel the shift happening? Well, this is
Speaker 1: a really interesting aspect of this. My latest boat, which
Speaker 1: obviously called The Sham Game, came out of a wider
Speaker 1: anti poverty project that I run called Project Twisted, where
Speaker 1: for the past three and a half years I've been
Speaker 1: connecting with organizations, grassroots researchers, entertainers, people across the culture
Speaker 1: to try and challenge this dominant narrative. As part of that,
Speaker 1: we worked with a lot of young people. Were run
Speaker 1: live events where young people presented to live audiences and
Speaker 1: theaters their ideas for how we can change things, you know,
Speaker 1: And it was absolutely apparent to me that these kids
Speaker 1: got it. They understood, they could see with clear eyes.
Speaker 1: They're not old enough to have been sort of made
Speaker 1: cynical about the world, you know. The same kind of
Speaker 1: kids are in the environmentalism, for instance. They got the
Speaker 1: stigma of poverty, they got the shame of poverty, and
Speaker 1: they really wanted to talk about it and they really
Speaker 1: wanted to challenge it. And after we held our events,
Speaker 1: those young people went out and set up their own
Speaker 1: little projects and online and you know, media projects. They
Speaker 1: did a census to look at what young people's attitudes were.
Speaker 1: I think absolutely they're more willing and not take this
Speaker 1: sitting down. I also think that this generation is in
Speaker 1: a moment of change more generally, and that includes the
Speaker 1: movement around racism, around women's rights, around trans writes about
Speaker 1: all of this. You know, it's a very interesting moment
Speaker 1: in the culture in terms of elevating voices of people
Speaker 1: who have been oppressed and suppressed for so long and
Speaker 1: so successfully that they're just baiting down. And I think
Speaker 1: young people are going to screw this. You know, we're
Speaker 1: being told that we're going to have less in our
Speaker 1: bank accounts than previous generations. We're told we can't afford
Speaker 1: to buy our own home and raise a family without
Speaker 1: doing four jobs. So yeah, I think young people are helping,
Speaker 1: and not include younger kind of policy makers as well,
Speaker 1: who have been reshipping the conversation on this the last
Speaker 1: eighteen months has been fascinating. Younger policy makers, aligned with
Speaker 1: younger grassroots activists, allied with others who have been working
Speaker 1: in this arena for a long time, understand that in
Speaker 1: many ways it's a make or break situation. The you know,
Speaker 1: the billionaire wealth over the course of the pandemic through
Speaker 1: the roof, absolutely through the roof. You know, we had
Speaker 1: this whole discourse about essential workers and how important they are.
Speaker 1: And guess what we realized our society would fall apart
Speaker 1: without these people we just pay them not a to
Speaker 1: do it. And I think there's a grown realization that
Speaker 1: that is not just unsustainable, but it's morally screwed up.
Speaker 1: And both that and poverty are political choices. Poverty doesn't
Speaker 1: exist because people want to be poor. It's a political choice.
Speaker 1: And for instance, there are welfare systems and other wealthy
Speaker 1: nations around the world that do create a safety net
Speaker 1: for people. You know, it's not about pol your bootstraps up.
Speaker 1: It's about being given a safety net that becomes a
Speaker 1: springboard that helps you. And you know what, it helps
Speaker 1: the wider society. It is the public good. It's good
Speaker 1: for everyone if people at the top pay their fair
Speaker 1: share of tax and people at the bottom of the
Speaker 1: social scale aren't way down with the sorts of burdens
Speaker 1: that cause genuine tragedies and people's lives. You know, you
Speaker 1: get a big medical bill, you come pit, you're screwed,
Speaker 1: you lose your heyes, you're living out of your car suddenly,
Speaker 1: it's you know, these have huge traumifications. Yeah, it's there's
Speaker 1: just there's so much there. I'm sure you're familiar with
Speaker 1: the pro publica report that just came out about the
Speaker 1: wealthiest I think the wealthiest men because they're all men
Speaker 1: in the world and what they're what they're paying taxes.
Speaker 1: I pay more money in taxes than the richest people
Speaker 1: in the world who are billionaires. Everybody out, everybody is
Speaker 1: paying more money than the richest people in the world
Speaker 1: in taxes. Yes, So the pro public A report and
Speaker 1: a lot of the others that have come out UM,
Speaker 1: certainly over the past six months are very clear. It
Speaker 1: was interesting that you were looking at a decade as
Speaker 1: your barometer for saying shifting that UM, it's exponentially growing. UM.
Speaker 1: Who needs that much money? Who needs that much? You
Speaker 1: don't need it. What's been interesting to me in the
Speaker 1: past few months is that reports like this come out
Speaker 1: all the time. I know this because they're always in
Speaker 1: my inbox. So the nerd that is me rummage in
Speaker 1: a run and these things is aware of it. And
Speaker 1: sometimes I wanted to bang my head off a wall
Speaker 1: because I'm like, why is it everybody else hearing about this? UM?
Speaker 1: But I think the pandemic is enabled more people to
Speaker 1: become aware of this because it's just being reported more
Speaker 1: and then people are going to understand what We'll hold
Speaker 1: on a minute, so I'm being told that taxpayers are
Speaker 1: subsidized in me because I need snap, I need food stamps.
Speaker 1: But the organization that should be paying me a living
Speaker 1: wage has had a huge tax brick. But they're not
Speaker 1: painted in the same light. They're not painted as intergenerational
Speaker 1: wealth pilferers, you know what I mean. It's just it's
Speaker 1: so hypocritical on every level, and they get those tax
Speaker 1: breaks and they don't actually raise wages. I think COVID
Speaker 1: is a really interesting conversation to have because a lot
Speaker 1: of the initial here in the United States anyway, the
Speaker 1: initially PPP loans that were given to businesses were so
Speaker 1: they would not lay off workers, right so that they
Speaker 1: would be able to retain their workforce. And we saw
Speaker 1: that that did not happen often that those workers were
Speaker 1: not paid more. And then too, what has happened because
Speaker 1: we had direct aid? I just I found this um
Speaker 1: this this report from the Urban Institute, a prominent liberal
Speaker 1: leaning think tank in Washington, this week projects poverty levels
Speaker 1: in the US will sit at seven point seven percent
Speaker 1: through the end of one down from thirteen point nine.
Speaker 1: The decline can be attributed to a suite of policies,
Speaker 1: including stimulus checks, enhance unemployment insurance payments and eligibility supplemental
Speaker 1: nutrition Assistance Program SNAP payments, and refundable child tax credits.
Speaker 1: So during a global pandemic, because people absolutely needed assistance
Speaker 1: and insisted on it, And ironically, we had a Republican
Speaker 1: president here in the United States who insisted on giving
Speaker 1: direct checks to people that we were able to reduce poverty.
Speaker 1: And if we can do it during a pandemic, why
Speaker 1: can't we do it all the time? I mean, I
Speaker 1: think it sort of blows up the myth. Now we're
Speaker 1: talking about inflation, right, but like so that the inflation
Speaker 1: conversation comes up whenever we want to sort of, you know,
Speaker 1: invest in people. How do you think the impact of
Speaker 1: COVID has changed the conversation or hasn't changed the conversation
Speaker 1: around poverty. Well, it's a really really interesting one because
Speaker 1: it's still fluid. We don't know what the endpoint is
Speaker 1: going to be. But one of the things that definitely
Speaker 1: happened in the United States and in other wealthy countries
Speaker 1: that harbor this belief in the sort of, you know,
Speaker 1: the laziness of poor people is the that make meant
Speaker 1: that a lot of people who really believed that everything
Speaker 1: they achieved in their lives was down to just them
Speaker 1: and their own hard work suddenly realized that ship the
Speaker 1: system doesn't necessarily work for everybody, and people who perhaps
Speaker 1: had never been in financial difficulty before suddenly found themselves
Speaker 1: in deep financial difficulty. That changes the conversation, because the
Speaker 1: tantalizing thing about the poverty narrative is that divides people,
Speaker 1: It polarizes people. It helps a certain group of society
Speaker 1: believe that they deserve everything they have, and if you
Speaker 1: don't have, you are undeserving. The last eighteen months is
Speaker 1: blown that out of the water, because it's patently obvious
Speaker 1: that we rely on systems to help us, to help
Speaker 1: all of us. And we've been fortunate enough that the
Speaker 1: discourse was beginning to shift a little bit before there
Speaker 1: was more of a high profile given to questions around
Speaker 1: poverty and what it does to people, on how we
Speaker 1: can help people, and now we've had an opportunity ready
Speaker 1: to do that. And obviously, going forward, their predictions that
Speaker 1: child poverty in America could be reduced by five million,
Speaker 1: which I mean that is a serious amount of children
Speaker 1: as a direct result of policies that two years ago
Speaker 1: would have been knocked out of the water because they
Speaker 1: would have been deemed as reinforcing welfare dependency. And it's
Speaker 1: become harder um too pump out that particular narrative because
Speaker 1: it's doom what it's designed to do, which is to
Speaker 1: lift people out of poverty and to give them a
Speaker 1: fighting chance. So we're now gathering evidence that really really matters,
Speaker 1: and we're saying what people do with the money that
Speaker 1: they get, and we're able to talk about the fact that, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, when all the politicians and think tanks were
Speaker 1: saying that if you give poor people money, they'll just
Speaker 1: go out and blow it on drugs and gambling. Well
Speaker 1: guess what. That does not happen. They spend it on
Speaker 1: their children, They invest in their homes and their families
Speaker 1: and their unity. And because we're a consumer economy, it
Speaker 1: actually is better for the economy because they's been the
Speaker 1: money right exact exactly. Poor and low income people get
Speaker 1: money in their pockets and they spend it. Rich people
Speaker 1: put it offshore or handed off to the next generation,
Speaker 1: and it does nothing. So this is why the common
Speaker 1: good aspect of this really matters. But we're in this
Speaker 1: peculiar experiment at the moment where enough is being done
Speaker 1: to make really big changes in people's lives, and that
Speaker 1: helps dismantle this narrative that has basically taken root over
Speaker 1: the past forty years. I mean it's not new. People
Speaker 1: were always blamed for being poor, but it has been
Speaker 1: particularly prevalent in the past sort of four decades. And
Speaker 1: you know, I always think about the person whose pocket
Speaker 1: that money is going into. What does that mean for
Speaker 1: that person? What can they feed their families? You know?
Speaker 1: And the cultural point you made is really important because
Speaker 1: you know, can you bring your kid Doom Museum to
Speaker 1: the theater? You know? Can can you have some money
Speaker 1: just to let your child see what the possibilities of
Speaker 1: the world are, rather than having to try to protect
Speaker 1: them from this constant barrage of blaming and shamming that
Speaker 1: goes on. I think it's a really unusual and interesting time. Well,
Speaker 1: many of those programs are said to expire, um, so
Speaker 1: it'll be really interesting to see what happens. This is
Speaker 1: a good time to take a little break. We'll be
Speaker 1: right back though, Okay, we're back. As a black person,
Speaker 1: I always think about the role of the narratives around
Speaker 1: welfare and race and how they play themselves out in
Speaker 1: the United States here specifically, And I'm curious about your
Speaker 1: perspective on race poverty in the United States versus the
Speaker 1: UK specific pick la Do you feel it plays itself
Speaker 1: out in the same way in the UK that it
Speaker 1: does in the here in the United States, it's not.
Speaker 1: It's not exactly the same, but it's the same in
Speaker 1: the sense that there are higher rates of poverty among
Speaker 1: people of color, and black people in particular tend to
Speaker 1: be in the lowest economic strata of society. So that
Speaker 1: is pretty similar in the sense that just the physical
Speaker 1: reality of the numbers tells us that if you are black,
Speaker 1: you are more likely to be living in poverty. So
Speaker 1: that's the same. The narrative that reinforces, that that entrenches
Speaker 1: that is similar on a broad level in the UK
Speaker 1: and America, But it hasn't It has a different kind
Speaker 1: of hue because of America's history UM specifically obviously with
Speaker 1: slavery and the intergenerational denial of wealth to black people
Speaker 1: in black communities, and that is fundamental now one of
Speaker 1: the one of the real interesting moments in the history
Speaker 1: of this UM And I won't go on about too much,
Speaker 1: because otherwise it's just like going down a rabbit hole.
Speaker 1: But the symbol of welfare in the nineteen eighties was
Speaker 1: this idea of the welfare queen. Right. It was a
Speaker 1: completely racialized trope, and it was deliberate and it absolutely
Speaker 1: made it easier in subsequent years for cuts to welfare
Speaker 1: that helped poor families. Now I'm sure your listeners will
Speaker 1: be more than familiar with this, but essentially it, you know,
Speaker 1: one woman becomes this mythic stereotype for people who live
Speaker 1: high on the hog on welfare. I mean that in
Speaker 1: itself was ridiculous because frankly, you don't live high in
Speaker 1: the hog when you're scrapping around for like, you know,
Speaker 1: scraps under the table. But it absolutely married, and there's
Speaker 1: lots of great resources around. This married the idea of
Speaker 1: welfare in America to race, and it fed into that
Speaker 1: normalization of associating race with poverty. Again, you add on
Speaker 1: to that the idea that poor people are lazy, and
Speaker 1: suddenly a million different stereotypes come into play. It was
Speaker 1: a very effective true and it wasn't just the you know,
Speaker 1: people on the right who bought entered you know, the
Speaker 1: Clinton administration did some serious damage, and especially to women
Speaker 1: who needed help, women with children. It was, you know,
Speaker 1: which is why also single mothers were demonized as well.
Speaker 1: So and this this put down very very deep roots
Speaker 1: and that becomes a symbol. But because the historic discrimination
Speaker 1: around black people in black communities has meant that they
Speaker 1: have been more poor than other groups in society, then
Speaker 1: you don't I mean it's not even dog whistles. I
Speaker 1: mean it's you know, the narrative physically is poor equals
Speaker 1: black equals let's say, yeah, and then to not internalize
Speaker 1: shame around that as a black person, right, like the
Speaker 1: levels of shame that I've internalized around that as a
Speaker 1: black person not being that stereotype. It's also not just
Speaker 1: about you know, needing assistance in being lazy. It's also
Speaker 1: being uneducated. It's also being unkempt. And so there's all
Speaker 1: this respectability politics that I've deeply internalized. There's just so
Speaker 1: many layers to the shame when it's intersectional like that,
Speaker 1: and when it's race and class and the demonizing of
Speaker 1: single mothers continues to this day, and it is, um
Speaker 1: it's very personal for me, and I know I shouldn't
Speaker 1: take things personally. But my mom was a single mother
Speaker 1: and and I turned out pretty well. You know, I
Speaker 1: turned out pretty well. And there's this narrative that, like,
Speaker 1: particularly conservatives in this country, push that like single motherhood
Speaker 1: is like ruining the country and we need to parent households,
Speaker 1: and like, I'm sure that's lovely. I don't have that
Speaker 1: experience personally, but like to demonize a woman who worked
Speaker 1: so hard to take care of her kids, who like sacrifice,
Speaker 1: and who did everything she could, and I know so
Speaker 1: many other mothers who are doing the same thing, it's
Speaker 1: just so utterly disrespectful. It's inhumane, and it pisces me off.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, that was just still little rand um. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, it pisses me off to That's why I
Speaker 1: started writing about this stuff. But the the internalizing of
Speaker 1: shame in general is very, very destructive and disorient and
Speaker 1: and it's very effective for the people who want to
Speaker 1: keep people done. It's a very effective tool because we
Speaker 1: start to blame ourselves for things that we're finding difficult. Uh.
Speaker 1: I recall so many occasions where I was in situations
Speaker 1: at school or when I got to university where I
Speaker 1: did not understand the social codes. I did not understand
Speaker 1: the way people spoke to each other or the signal
Speaker 1: and that they did. When I went from my first
Speaker 1: like proper job after college, I didn't know how to
Speaker 1: even do an interview properly. You know it was it
Speaker 1: holds you back in so many ways and you're ashamed
Speaker 1: on so many levels that almost it's like keep closing
Speaker 1: on yourself, right, And then if you're an ambitious person,
Speaker 1: I admit I really wanted to be the best I
Speaker 1: could be. Um, you don't want to be labeled and
Speaker 1: you certainly don't want to be pitied. And one of
Speaker 1: the things in the UK that used to be said
Speaker 1: a lot if you complained or brought up issues around
Speaker 1: poverty and the experience of poverty, well so you've got
Speaker 1: a chip on your shoulder and I'm like, what what
Speaker 1: are you even talking about? I've got to SI, this
Speaker 1: is my reality. Don't do down my reality. For the
Speaker 1: first part of my career, I didn't focus on these
Speaker 1: issues because I still was carrying that um shame and
Speaker 1: didn't want to be pigeonholed as as this is my
Speaker 1: whole identity. But as I got older, and especially in
Speaker 1: the wake of the financial crisis, and they're just so
Speaker 1: much like trauma around poverty going on and poor people
Speaker 1: being attacked again and again again. I felt like I
Speaker 1: had to spick up. And what I found, and it's
Speaker 1: fascinating to me, is that once you start talking about
Speaker 1: these things, once you start challenging they perceived understanding of
Speaker 1: these things, you find it there are people everywhere who
Speaker 1: want to do the same. And when I was building
Speaker 1: Project Twisted, I thought, oh, my god, is anybody going
Speaker 1: to talk to me for this? Is anybody gonna do?
Speaker 1: And I had authors, musicians, poets, kids who had made
Speaker 1: their very first film in their public house, and complex
Speaker 1: just said yes, please, can I be part of this?
Speaker 1: Can I be part of this? It made me realize
Speaker 1: that there was no real movement to run this stuff,
Speaker 1: you know, you, there was no way to connect with people.
Speaker 1: It was very reassuring to find so much work going on,
Speaker 1: especially creatively, to challenge these stories that we're told. But
Speaker 1: we needed to find ways to talk to each other.
Speaker 1: So at the end of October, for instance, in the UK,
Speaker 1: there's going to be a working Class Writers Festival for
Speaker 1: the first time that is champion in the voices of
Speaker 1: people from those backgrounds, and you know, as diverse as
Speaker 1: it's possible to get people normally excluded from the culture,
Speaker 1: and that really that really tells me that there is
Speaker 1: a willingness to not just take this anymore. But here's
Speaker 1: the thing. As much and you brought up the point
Speaker 1: about things experiment that are helping people, as much as
Speaker 1: that progress is happening, if we look at the history
Speaker 1: of shaming poor people, the people who do the organizations
Speaker 1: that they're not going to take this sitting down. They're
Speaker 1: going to be on the attack, and especially in the
Speaker 1: US with in the terms next year, I would guess
Speaker 1: that in our current polarized society there is going to
Speaker 1: be an awful lot more of this. And how that
Speaker 1: plays out well, I think determine what happens in the
Speaker 1: years afterwards. They know shaming people works and dividing people
Speaker 1: also works. What I love about twist it and and
Speaker 1: what you just said is that if we have more
Speaker 1: media representations where people get to tell their stories, then
Speaker 1: narrative can begin to change. And then what I know
Speaker 1: about shame, according to Berne Brown's work anyway, is that
Speaker 1: when we speak our shaming story um and are met
Speaker 1: with empathy, the shame dissipates, and I was just thinking
Speaker 1: about like that on an inter personal level, and that
Speaker 1: like in the context of an auditorium, But then what
Speaker 1: would that look like in the context of like poor
Speaker 1: people getting to tell their stories in the context of
Speaker 1: government and actually being greeted with empathy instead of your lazy,
Speaker 1: your lazy, you're lazy. I think too, What's what I
Speaker 1: find curious? And I'm not familiar with the UK, but
Speaker 1: what I feel like is happening here in the United
Speaker 1: States with the poverty narrative. What takes a more media
Speaker 1: space are sort of cultural wars around like now mask
Speaker 1: and vaccines, trans people in sports, and so what the
Speaker 1: Conservative Party here does is like sort of weaponizes cultural
Speaker 1: issues that are usually based in racism, transphobia, UM, xenophobia,
Speaker 1: et cetera. And so they use that to divide working
Speaker 1: class people and then they're like doing tax breaks there
Speaker 1: for rich people. They're you know, doing austerity programs, are
Speaker 1: cutting you know things, But then people aren't even paying
Speaker 1: attention and don't even aware of that because we're in
Speaker 1: this cultural war thing. So it's like this whole sort
Speaker 1: of divide and conquer thing. And I often think like
Speaker 1: what if all working class people of all races like
Speaker 1: got together and said, okay, wait a minute, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: like okay, like, how is it that the richest man
Speaker 1: in the world are paying nothing like zero in taxes.
Speaker 1: I'm paying more, but people who make less money than
Speaker 1: me are paying more, like not just just a percentage
Speaker 1: of their income, just in terms of the actual number
Speaker 1: than these billionaires. Yeah, you know, this is so this
Speaker 1: is so right because one of the things about being
Speaker 1: poor it's it's exhausted. It is exhausted, either because you're
Speaker 1: doing four jobs and trying to bring up some kids
Speaker 1: and find some child car but also you're trying to
Speaker 1: process so much. You're trying, you know, you're carrying so
Speaker 1: much trauma from the poverty that you are less able
Speaker 1: to find time, just time to my life and get together.
Speaker 1: It's so infuriating. I know, it's just I know, when
Speaker 1: that pro Publica report came out, I was so instantly.
Speaker 1: But the billionaires have so much money, we can't even
Speaker 1: compute it. Yeah, and you refuse to let you let
Speaker 1: your workers unionize. That's the fundamental thing, isn't it. People
Speaker 1: don't get their rights given to them by those with power.
Speaker 1: They have to fight for them. And unions have been
Speaker 1: like in the history of working people, unions have been
Speaker 1: absolutely fundamental to not just the amount the money that
Speaker 1: goes into people's pockets, but horse if their work environment
Speaker 1: is you know, health insurance, like just you know, a
Speaker 1: five day work week as opposed to like working at
Speaker 1: them any of the week. From my union as an actor,
Speaker 1: like so that we're the turnaround and the hours and
Speaker 1: there's so many things that my union protects me from
Speaker 1: as an actor that it's invaluable. And unions have been
Speaker 1: decimated in this country. And another thing that Reagan did
Speaker 1: and started, you know in the eighties, and that's where
Speaker 1: the UK and America are absolutely singing from the Samim
Speaker 1: shade because Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher did that in
Speaker 1: unison attacked the unions. By the late seven days, unions
Speaker 1: were still pretty strong. And then come the eighties absolutely decimated.
Speaker 1: And with it where is and the narrative and the
Speaker 1: narrative to when you watch when when you see the narrative,
Speaker 1: unions are terrible teachers and unions, I mean they're just
Speaker 1: so routinely demonized as like holding back progress like that.
Speaker 1: It's been so successful. What I marvel at is how
Speaker 1: brilliant Republicans are in this country at propaganda, getting getting
Speaker 1: a message, saying it over it. It could be a
Speaker 1: complete lion fabrication, but get everybody getting on the same page,
Speaker 1: saying it over and over and over again, relentlessly until
Speaker 1: it almost seems like it's the truth. So it's and
Speaker 1: that the Democratic Party or liberals or the left do
Speaker 1: not have a response that is commiserated to the attack
Speaker 1: that is happening from the right. There is not a desire,
Speaker 1: a willingness to exercise power in the same way for
Speaker 1: the people. And it is it's it's it's shocking to me.
Speaker 1: It really is shock king to me that Democrats have
Speaker 1: are so feckless and how and and don't understand exactly
Speaker 1: what they're up against. They really when Joe Biden wants
Speaker 1: to be bipartisan with a party that thinks he's stole
Speaker 1: an election, well it's the classic you bring a knife
Speaker 1: to a gunfight, you know, But you're absolutely right, You're
Speaker 1: so spot on, because that's exactly why the narrative does
Speaker 1: what it does. It's simple, and it's repeated over and
Speaker 1: over and over again until people believe that it is
Speaker 1: the absolute truth. And there's and I think it's I
Speaker 1: think it's because of corporate interests for Democrats that ultimately
Speaker 1: they are serving the same corporate interest is Republicans. I
Speaker 1: think that's part of it. I think the media is
Speaker 1: part of it. But it's just it's like, it's I
Speaker 1: furious and get a clue, Get a clue these people are.
Speaker 1: They're not playing fair. It's like literally Texas abortion. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like it's happening right now. Actually, this is the moment.
Speaker 1: And what it is so sad about them not link
Speaker 1: to being willing to end that filibuster, is that this
Speaker 1: is the moment. If we don't do Philipbus reform right now,
Speaker 1: if we don't do election reform right now, if we
Speaker 1: don't do Supreme Court Supreme Court we need to expand
Speaker 1: the court, all of these things. If we don't change
Speaker 1: the system fundamentally in a legislative way, we're screwed, probably
Speaker 1: for a generation. Yeah, I agree, I completely agree. And
Speaker 1: this missed opportunity will disillusion so many people too, because
Speaker 1: the fight that went on last year to do what
Speaker 1: people did to you know, get the Drump administration gone. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, people will go, well, why did I fight
Speaker 1: so hard when they didn't fight for me, And it's like,
Speaker 1: it's so hard to have any kind of hope and
Speaker 1: I don't at this moment, and I'm like, I want
Speaker 1: to be a hopeful, positive person, but it it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I hear you. But they're helping positive moves on that.
Speaker 1: So like the Poor People's Campaign here in the US,
Speaker 1: for instance, right, which is very much about building an
Speaker 1: ally this of you know, profile in the verious different
Speaker 1: aspects of this, like the impact on people of color,
Speaker 1: but also going you know what, they turned me against
Speaker 1: you because it suits them to turn me against you
Speaker 1: when we have the same interests, we have the same dreams,
Speaker 1: you know, we have the same goals for our families.
Speaker 1: So I think there's a realization of that, there's a
Speaker 1: realization that this division of people, this shaming of people,
Speaker 1: only happens because it's effective. So the question becomes harder
Speaker 1: you kinteract something that has been so effective, mainly because
Speaker 1: it's so simple, but also because it is propagated by
Speaker 1: a media that is either complicit in this message or
Speaker 1: actively promoting this message. And there's a lot of thought
Speaker 1: going into this right now, and the language that we
Speaker 1: use is crucial. The way we frame discussions is crucial.
Speaker 1: Who gets to say when and to who is crucial. Right.
Speaker 1: So the empathy point you make is a really important
Speaker 1: one because it's strengthens it gives us more power and
Speaker 1: self respect um. But it takes it away from pity
Speaker 1: because the thing that doesn't get discussed a lot around
Speaker 1: the shaming is this. We we can see the overt
Speaker 1: shaming and blaming and calling people Lisa, but historically the
Speaker 1: people who have set out to help poor people are
Speaker 1: often doing it well meaning, but from a position of
Speaker 1: paternalism or pity, and that does not work anymore than
Speaker 1: vilifying and blaming people works because guess what, people who
Speaker 1: are poor are, just like everybody else, have agency and
Speaker 1: they are the experts in their own situation, right absolutely,
Speaker 1: So that's who we listen to. And there is more
Speaker 1: of that happening and in politics and in eider society,
Speaker 1: but I think it's still quite early days and it's
Speaker 1: very fragile. It's a very fragile situation up and precisely
Speaker 1: for the points that you make, because it cuts across
Speaker 1: this binary, divided cultural space that we inhabit, and the
Speaker 1: tools and techniques that have been used to keep people
Speaker 1: done for a very long time are going to keep
Speaker 1: being used for as long as they're effective. Absolutely, absolutely. Um.
Speaker 1: It feels sort of insurmountable here in the States to
Speaker 1: me sometimes because so much when we have a democratic presidency, Senate,
Speaker 1: and House and then we still can't get things done
Speaker 1: because of the filibuster, and that the filibuster becomes a
Speaker 1: cover for Democrats to protect corporate interest, right so that
Speaker 1: they have to keep the filibuster in place to use
Speaker 1: as an excuse so that they can like you know,
Speaker 1: please their corporate donors. And so then we don't get
Speaker 1: an equality Act, we don't get like a four the
Speaker 1: people like the democracies on the line, and then all
Speaker 1: these programs that we could be doing a fifteen dollar
Speaker 1: minimum way it really should be twenty five dollars right now,
Speaker 1: fighting for fifteen dollars for like twelve years. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean the federal minimum wage has been the same for
Speaker 1: more than a decade, and you're kind of like, well,
Speaker 1: when you look at the numbers, had it just followed
Speaker 1: inflation from nine, it would be like forty in all,
Speaker 1: which is what it should be, you know. But but
Speaker 1: that's that's done to push and push and pushing this
Speaker 1: idea of people being undeserved, and uh like, Fight for
Speaker 1: Fifteen has done a brilliant job in recent years of
Speaker 1: putting this out there, getting media attention. It's been a
Speaker 1: very effective campaign in terms of people realizing it. But
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, we shouldn't be stuck on the fifteen dollars.
Speaker 1: It should be much more. That is the lowest possible
Speaker 1: threshold people cannot live on. That people can't live on that.
Speaker 1: And I don't have the source, but there was a
Speaker 1: recent report that noted that the current minimum wage, which
Speaker 1: is like seven dollars an hour in most American cities,
Speaker 1: you can't rent a one bit froom apartment for that. Okay,
Speaker 1: it's that time again. A lot more is coming though,
Speaker 1: we're back. You tell this story in your book about
Speaker 1: the intersection of disability and poverty, which is which is
Speaker 1: really important to talk about because you talk about in
Speaker 1: the book how you know this is in the UK,
Speaker 1: how so many people with disabilities had to like jump
Speaker 1: through all these hoops to prove that they were disabled
Speaker 1: and unable to work, and often died in the process.
Speaker 1: Do you want to relay one of the stories from
Speaker 1: your book about this. Yeah. So, basically after the financial crisis,
Speaker 1: when the UK introduced absolutely awful austerity program, it affected
Speaker 1: the groups that you expected to effect really badly, women,
Speaker 1: people of color, etcetera, but also disabled people. So they
Speaker 1: wanted to cut benefits for disabled people and they use
Speaker 1: this poverty narrative to justify it. They put in place,
Speaker 1: you know, work requirements. Look into America by the way,
Speaker 1: That's what they were getting their ideas from, and they
Speaker 1: kind of very long and complicated story short. Disabled people
Speaker 1: were having to go to say for interviews, right. Um.
Speaker 1: I met people who got to their interview and the
Speaker 1: person who's deciding whether or not they're getting any financial
Speaker 1: support says that if they could get on the bus,
Speaker 1: that means they're fine. They can get a job right now.
Speaker 1: If you've got a chronic illness and four days of
Speaker 1: the week you can't move, but it just so happened
Speaker 1: that you have managed to get out of bed that day.
Speaker 1: I had whistleblowers come to me who were working in
Speaker 1: employment centers deciding whether people get unemployment benefit, and they
Speaker 1: were being incentivized to not give people what they're entire to,
Speaker 1: including people who were dying of cancer, and thousands and
Speaker 1: thousands of disabled people. Um. One story I came across
Speaker 1: was a person who had a heart attack during the
Speaker 1: interview when they were being told that they were fit
Speaker 1: to work. I mean, there are so many stories. There
Speaker 1: are so many stories of suicides as a result of this,
Speaker 1: People who were being hunded have been denied their say,
Speaker 1: housing support, they weren't getting their housing support, and people
Speaker 1: losing three or four stone and then killing themselves because
Speaker 1: they just couldn't cope anymore. I mean, it was a
Speaker 1: hounding of disabled people and I have to sell around.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you brought this topic up because it's
Speaker 1: many of the discussions around this, and around diversity in
Speaker 1: general and social justice in general. Disabled people are often ignored,
Speaker 1: and there are great movements like crypto vote, for instance,
Speaker 1: that are pushing back against this. But you know, as
Speaker 1: a society, what the hell are we doing? You know,
Speaker 1: what are we doing when we're not providing the proper
Speaker 1: safety net and support systems for people with disabilities. It's
Speaker 1: a huge number of people. Most of us will get
Speaker 1: a disability at some point if we're lucky enough to
Speaker 1: live a long time. It's a society wide issue, and
Speaker 1: in the UK, I mean it's a sham. It's an
Speaker 1: absolute sham on that country that it did what it did.
Speaker 1: And my book before this documents and a lot more detail,
Speaker 1: um if you know, if people want to check that out,
Speaker 1: But it's an active object, cruelty and certainly drummed home
Speaker 1: to me the degree to which these things are political choices.
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, So there's the there's the policy piece and
Speaker 1: and how that's functioning and movement organizing to begin to
Speaker 1: do that. But on a personal level, I mean even
Speaker 1: for me at this stage, and I've done so much
Speaker 1: work on shame in my own personal life, but you know,
Speaker 1: I have like in my head narratives around like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't want to theme Tachi and new vote reach
Speaker 1: and like I don't want to seem like I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just it just kind of keeps going in terms
Speaker 1: of like shame around poverty and them and ghetto and like.
Speaker 1: But then like for individuals out there who are struggling
Speaker 1: with with shame around being poor and working class, now
Speaker 1: having had that in their path, what can we begin
Speaker 1: to do? I think talking about it is is crucial, Um,
Speaker 1: what what would what would you suggest? Yeah? I completely agree,
Speaker 1: And you know the fact that we talked about how
Speaker 1: poverty is bloody exhausting, right, So you know, not everyone
Speaker 1: can be an activist. Absolutely, not everyone can be a spokesperson.
Speaker 1: Not everyone wants to be a spokesperson. And that is
Speaker 1: absolutely okay because there are people who will do those things.
Speaker 1: But in our everyday lives and our everyday existences, it's
Speaker 1: like any of the other great social injustices of our time.
Speaker 1: You know, in our interactions with people, do we call
Speaker 1: them out when they denigrate people, when they make a
Speaker 1: dismissive comment or use a demeaning kind of stereotype to
Speaker 1: talk about people on poverty, Like, we all need to
Speaker 1: call them out. We need to be conscious that all
Speaker 1: of us have a responsibility to do that. Um, those
Speaker 1: of us that can't tell our stories will and should
Speaker 1: tell our stories. And this one is very interesting to me,
Speaker 1: and I'd be really interested to hear if it's something
Speaker 1: that you come across a lot as well. So when
Speaker 1: I'm talking about these issues from a personal experience, and
Speaker 1: people will say things like, well, look at your your
Speaker 1: proof that if you put yourself up by your bootstraps.
Speaker 1: You know you can do whatever you you got out, well,
Speaker 1: why can't everybody else get out? All right? And that
Speaker 1: only makes me more determined to tell my story because
Speaker 1: I know for a fact that no matter how hard
Speaker 1: I worked or what natural talents I was given, I
Speaker 1: relied on the social and welfare structures around me to
Speaker 1: be a springboard. I had access to free health care
Speaker 1: as a child. I had free education, free education university.
Speaker 1: The government paid me to go to university, So yeah,
Speaker 1: I had to take advantage of it. I had to
Speaker 1: do the work. But don't tell me and people like
Speaker 1: me that, because we have been seen to succeed by
Speaker 1: society's norms, that the other people who don't fit that
Speaker 1: particular picture must be lazy. And I think unless we
Speaker 1: talk about that, unless we confront those misunderstandings, those perceptions
Speaker 1: in our everyday lives, then people will only believe the
Speaker 1: stories that they're told. And let's face facts of them.
Speaker 1: Because if you're from a poor background, the chances are
Speaker 1: almost everyone you know is from the same background. If
Speaker 1: you're from a wealthy background, when do you ever encounter
Speaker 1: people from poor backgrounds, unless it's say, you're cleaner or
Speaker 1: you're cook or something, and you probably don't talk to
Speaker 1: them anyway. So those of us that can shoot talk
Speaker 1: about it and do it publicly, and elephant voices that
Speaker 1: are marginalized. You know, I think about privilege, right, I
Speaker 1: think about that every black trans person doesn't have the
Speaker 1: same privileges that I had in the privilege even though
Speaker 1: we were poor. My mother was a teacher and corrected
Speaker 1: my grammar all the time, and the kids may offended
Speaker 1: means that I talked proper. But then I also begged
Speaker 1: my mother to let me audition for the Alabama School
Speaker 1: to Find Arts, which was in Birmingham, Alabama, four hours
Speaker 1: north of Mobile, and so I was in the dorms there,
Speaker 1: and not only was that a wonderful arts education, I
Speaker 1: was surrounded by kids from very privileged backgrounds and I
Speaker 1: got to see it's different level of possibility that I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have seen if I weren't in that school. And
Speaker 1: then I also learned how to make white people comfortable.
Speaker 1: And that one of the crucial things about surviving, I
Speaker 1: think as a black person in America is learning how
Speaker 1: to make white people comfortable. And I don't it sounds funny,
Speaker 1: but but but I don't think. But I don't think
Speaker 1: we should have to do that. I don't think re
Speaker 1: black person gets the skills to know how to do
Speaker 1: that or even wants to do that. And I'm not
Speaker 1: suggesting they should, but like in my space of survival,
Speaker 1: I just sort of learned how to do that and
Speaker 1: I look a certain way. And then even with all
Speaker 1: of that privilege, I you know, I had to loan
Speaker 1: debt and credit card debt and I didn't become famous
Speaker 1: till I was forty one years old. So so even
Speaker 1: with all of the you know, I was poor. So
Speaker 1: I mean, poverty is really not an advantage and we
Speaker 1: you know, but I think, I mean, I lived most
Speaker 1: of my adult life like working in restaurants for tips
Speaker 1: and barely surviving. And and I'm actually really grateful for
Speaker 1: that because I think if I had become famous in
Speaker 1: my twenties, I wouldn't have an understanding of like how
Speaker 1: poor people are continually demonized, how hard it is to
Speaker 1: just survive in the world, and I wouldn't have a
Speaker 1: critical awareness of that. And I know that this system
Speaker 1: has always been set up to to elevate one or
Speaker 1: two people, like we look throughout history, particularly as a
Speaker 1: black person. I'm aware of this that, like, you know,
Speaker 1: there's been a few elevated here and there throughout the
Speaker 1: history of America, and that's sort of how the system
Speaker 1: functions as well. Let's like elevate a few and say
Speaker 1: oh they can do it, then anybody can do it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's how these narratives functioned because you know, they say, oh,
Speaker 1: there's that person, you know, as if that person is
Speaker 1: representative of an entire community or should carry the identity
Speaker 1: of an entire community on their shoulders. But it allows
Speaker 1: people to go, well, you know, people get by some people.
Speaker 1: You know Obama as president, you know, you get that
Speaker 1: kind of nonsense. But you know, each and every one
Speaker 1: of us has the circumstances around us that we have
Speaker 1: various degrees of privilege, various degrees of alienation and isolation
Speaker 1: and all of that. But fundamentally, if we have systems
Speaker 1: in place they don't deliberately and actively keep people done,
Speaker 1: then they're just as more opportunity. And that matters. It
Speaker 1: matters on so many offals, and not least so that
Speaker 1: you don't walk around your whole life feeling ashamed of
Speaker 1: where you came from. Yeah, before I asked my last
Speaker 1: question that I asked all my guests, is there something
Speaker 1: you want to leave the people with as we go
Speaker 1: go forward into this continued to struggle for our own
Speaker 1: sort of lifting our own shame and then lifting the
Speaker 1: cultural shame around poverty. Yeah, don't be part of the problem.
Speaker 1: You know, just don't be part of the problem. Um.
Speaker 1: It's understandable that as a culture we've absorbed all these
Speaker 1: messages and it's convenient to just go along with whatever
Speaker 1: the status cool with, but be question and be critical
Speaker 1: if you're not. If you're the sort of person that's
Speaker 1: lived a life where you haven't had to struggle or
Speaker 1: you haven't had to fight, just keep a roof over
Speaker 1: your head. Just ask yourself once in a while if
Speaker 1: you really did it all yourself? Or was it that
Speaker 1: or was it that grid school and all the other
Speaker 1: privileges that you had, And just don't accept the messages
Speaker 1: that you're told at face failure. Yeah, I love that
Speaker 1: we always have to be critical. So I end um
Speaker 1: every podcast with the question, um, what else is true?
Speaker 1: And this question comes from my somatic therapy based in
Speaker 1: the community resiliency model, and the idea is both and
Speaker 1: if there's something challenging us in our lives or even
Speaker 1: in our body, and we sort of become what we
Speaker 1: focus on. We can focus on the difficulty, or we
Speaker 1: can focus on the thing that is neutral and positive
Speaker 1: and that thing that helps us get through. So for
Speaker 1: you today, Mary O'Hara, for you, what else it's true?
Speaker 1: Oh wow? Um? I think it's true that human rights
Speaker 1: and human dignity are necessary for all of us to
Speaker 1: live the best life that we can live. And it's
Speaker 1: true that as individuals we can make a difference, but
Speaker 1: together we can make a hell of a bigger difference
Speaker 1: than on our own. Mm hmmm. Amen. Amen. And it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, it keeps coming up on the podcast. A
Speaker 1: lot of these episodes have been about like mental health
Speaker 1: and well being and connection. Connect Him is coming back
Speaker 1: to love and connection for me over and over and
Speaker 1: over again. And so what we can do together makes
Speaker 1: me think about like how do we then connect to
Speaker 1: each other? And we connect through telling the truth of
Speaker 1: our stories, um, with the things that we have in
Speaker 1: common and our shared humanity. And as we can begin
Speaker 1: to do that, then maybe maybe there's hope that we're
Speaker 1: not alone. No, we're not, Thank you so much. Mary
Speaker 1: O'Hara is the author of the shame Game, Overcoming the
Speaker 1: Toxic Poverty Narrative, and also your previous book, Austerity Bites.
Speaker 1: Are you on social media? Can folks on follow you
Speaker 1: on on anyway? Yeah? Sure, I'm I'm on Twitter, easy
Speaker 1: to find Mary O'Hara one and on Instagram. Mary Uhara writer,
Speaker 1: so fairly simple, love it, Thank you so much. I'm
Speaker 1: so grateful for you and your work. Project Twisted is awesome.
Speaker 1: There's actually a YouTube channel for a project Twisted, and
Speaker 1: there's just some great um content there from young people
Speaker 1: that I love and I love hearing people's lived experiences
Speaker 1: in their story, so I encourage people to go and
Speaker 1: check that out as well. Thank you and thank you
Speaker 1: for having me. It was an absolute delight, Mary O'Hara.
Speaker 1: The biggest takeaway from me after that conversation is an invitation,
Speaker 1: I think to myself, an invitation to everyone out there
Speaker 1: who's listening to critically interrogate the assumptions that we've made
Speaker 1: about poverty in general, about people who are poor, and
Speaker 1: how we've internalized those messages in relationship to ourselves. If
Speaker 1: we are not struggling with poverty or never have. What
Speaker 1: is our relationship to our own wealth and privilege and
Speaker 1: how does that relate to narratives that we've heard and
Speaker 1: or internalized around people who might be struggling. And I
Speaker 1: think we have to change the story first. When we're
Speaker 1: talking about shame, we internalize shame, We shame ourselves, and
Speaker 1: then we can shame other people. And we live in
Speaker 1: a culture that shames other people and blames people for
Speaker 1: situations that it might not be their fault. So I
Speaker 1: invite you um think about changing the narratives that you
Speaker 1: have in your head, in your social circles, and maybe
Speaker 1: you know more globally around poverty, think about your own
Speaker 1: personal staken in your own personal part in it, and
Speaker 1: then what are the systems in place? Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for listening to the Laverne Cox Show. Join me
Speaker 1: next week for my second conversation with my incredible therapist
Speaker 1: Jennifer Byrne Flyer to go even deeper into the tools
Speaker 1: of the community resiliency model. So much of this step
Speaker 1: is connected, It's all connected. Please rate, review, subscribe and
Speaker 1: share with everyone you know. You can find me on
Speaker 1: Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at
Speaker 1: Laverne Cox for Real. Until next time, Stay in the loud.
Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show is a production of Shonda land
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