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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland

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Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. The federal minimum

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Speaker 1: which has been the same for more than a decade,

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Speaker 1: and you're kind of like, well, when you look at

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Speaker 1: the numbers, had it just followed inflation from it will

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Speaker 1: be like in all, which is what it should be,

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Speaker 1: you know. But that's done to push and push and

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Speaker 1: pushing this idea of people being undeserved. Hello everyone, and

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Speaker 1: welcome to Laverne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox. So I

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Speaker 1: believe it was January. I remember being in line, the

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Speaker 1: very long line that day at housing court, and tears

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Speaker 1: started streaming down my face. I was trying to keep

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Speaker 1: it together, but I was completely falling apart. One of

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Speaker 1: my greatest spheres has always been becoming homeless. And here

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Speaker 1: I was holding an eviction notice in my hand that

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Speaker 1: the sheriff had put on my door, and all my

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Speaker 1: neighbors had seen, and I was just crying and just

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Speaker 1: kind of losing my my my ship. I was thirty

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Speaker 1: seven years old and couldn't pay my rent in a

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Speaker 1: low income building. I was living in a UM government

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Speaker 1: subsidized low income building at the time in Manhattan, and

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Speaker 1: the whole point of the building is to keep people

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Speaker 1: from becoming homeless, and here I was unable to pay rent.

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Speaker 1: There I just felt, um, like all of the sort

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Speaker 1: of narratives around being a piece of ship because I

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Speaker 1: was poor and being lazy, even though I was working

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Speaker 1: really hard at the time, like a lot of it

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Speaker 1: was unpaid work, so I knew I wasn't lazy, but

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Speaker 1: I was still internalizing like this narrative, and then like

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Speaker 1: all the internalized racism too. It was just a ship

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Speaker 1: storm of shame and a ship storm of I'm not enough.

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Speaker 1: And Brine Brown tells us. A shame functions in two

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Speaker 1: different ways. It tells us that we're not enough, and um,

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Speaker 1: if we're able to get over that, it says, you know,

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Speaker 1: who do you think you are? You're too big for

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Speaker 1: your bitches, And in that moment, I was feeling both,

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Speaker 1: you know, pursuing this dream of wanting to be an actor.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're a black transperson. There's never been a

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Speaker 1: famous black transactor. I mean, you are insane and delusional,

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Speaker 1: and now you're about to be homeless. It was really scary.

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Speaker 1: It was very, very scary, and I was able to

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Speaker 1: meet with the lawyer and we were able to work

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Speaker 1: out a payment plan and I was able to catch

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Speaker 1: up um on my rent. And the sad thing is

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Speaker 1: that two years later, in um February, I was there again.

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Speaker 1: I was there in housing court another time. I was

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Speaker 1: thirty nine, I was about to turn forty, and it

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Speaker 1: was just like, what's going on. The shame that I have,

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Speaker 1: The shame that still sort of losing my body, around

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Speaker 1: not being able to support myself, around being poor, is

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Speaker 1: really really deep inside me um till this day. And

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Speaker 1: now I literally epitomized the American dream. People are like, well,

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Speaker 1: if Laverne Costs can do it, why can't you do it?

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Speaker 1: And I'm really critical of those narratives because I know

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Speaker 1: that even though it was tenuous that I've I've made

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Speaker 1: it this far. I know that like a lot of

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Speaker 1: privilege allowed me to be where I'm at today. And so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that I'm working through. And there

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Speaker 1: is a woman named Mary O'Hara who happened to write

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Speaker 1: a book. Mary O'Hara is an award winning journalist, author

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Speaker 1: and producer. She is a graduate of Cambridge University and

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Speaker 1: a former full right scholar at UC Berkeley. Mary is

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Speaker 1: the author of two books, one of which is The

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Speaker 1: Shame Game, Overturning the toxic poverty narrative, and its founder

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Speaker 1: of the multi platform anti poverty initiative project Twisted. In

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Speaker 1: she was named Best Foreign Columnist at the Southern California

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Speaker 1: Journalism Awards. Please enjoy my conversation with Mary O'Hara. Hello,

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Speaker 1: Mary O'Hara, Welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today?

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm done, okay, not too about all things considered.

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Speaker 1: Very good, very good. I am so excited to have

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Speaker 1: you here today because, um, this is something I think

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Speaker 1: about all the time. I'm always always thinking about shame.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about It's been a huge issue in my

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Speaker 1: life in a lot of different ways. Shame around being

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Speaker 1: trans shame around raised, and the shame around class that

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Speaker 1: I've internalized is really really deep, and it's something that

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Speaker 1: even as I'm no longer poor and working class, it's

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Speaker 1: something that persists, which is really interesting. What I know

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Speaker 1: about shame is that so much of shame it's about

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Speaker 1: the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves and the stories

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Speaker 1: that we've internalized from structures, and so can we start,

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Speaker 1: can you tell us from your research, from your work,

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Speaker 1: what the predominant narrative around poverty is that can be

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Speaker 1: shaming for a lot of people. Yeah. Sure. First of all,

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad to be on this podcast. I think

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Speaker 1: it's a great show. I love how it is with

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Speaker 1: matters that matter to me, So I'm really pleased to

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Speaker 1: be here. Thank you. I appreciate that well. As a

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Speaker 1: person with lived experience of poverty myself, I grew up

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Speaker 1: in poverty as a child and young person, I completely

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Speaker 1: hear what you're saying about the shame that you carry

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Speaker 1: with you even when you've moved beyond that situation. What

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Speaker 1: it does now part of the reason that we feel

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Speaker 1: that shame is because it permeates our cultures. It runs

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Speaker 1: through the politics, the economics, the entertainment, the media, it's everywhere.

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Speaker 1: And essentially what the dominant poverty the narrative, the story

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Speaker 1: we're told in the US and the UK, the two

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Speaker 1: countries I'm interested in, is that if you are poor,

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Speaker 1: it's your fault. Right, you must be poor because you

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Speaker 1: are lazy, you are idle, You've made a lifestyle choice

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Speaker 1: apparently to be poor. According to this narrative, The flip

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Speaker 1: side of that narrative is that people who are wealthy

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Speaker 1: um are so purely because of their own efforts, not

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Speaker 1: that they've been assisted by anyone or anything. It's done

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Speaker 1: to them and their talents. And that's a very tantalizing

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Speaker 1: aspect of the narrative because it reinforces the idea that

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Speaker 1: if you are poor, you're poor because you are economically

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Speaker 1: supposed to be poor because you're not doing anything about

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Speaker 1: it and all of that. Of course it's absolute nonsense,

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Speaker 1: but it's a powerful, powerful story. Yeah, it makes me

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Speaker 1: think about my own life as well. And there was

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Speaker 1: there was a point my mother put herself through school

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Speaker 1: while she was raising us, through her undergraduate work while

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Speaker 1: she was raising us. And I remember there was one

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Speaker 1: point when we were kids that we had we had

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Speaker 1: a paper route that so as a family, we like

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Speaker 1: went in sort of delivered papers, and then we also

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Speaker 1: collected bottles and cans so that we could um, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of turn them in to be recycled to get

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Speaker 1: money for that. And then my mother had a job

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Speaker 1: working as the church secretary, and she had like another

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Speaker 1: job to which I forget what it was. Cirly, so

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Speaker 1: I'm like, wait, and I think about the experiences of

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Speaker 1: like what people say, poor people are just lazy. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute. My mother had like four jobs at

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Speaker 1: one point and we were still struggling, and we were

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Speaker 1: unwelfare at one point, and there was such shame around that.

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Speaker 1: As an adult too, I um lived in government subsidized

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Speaker 1: housing for many years, which really saved my life. And

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Speaker 1: I was on Medicaid, which is um in the United

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Speaker 1: States health care for poor people. And it's really easy

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Speaker 1: to um let your Medicaid slip because you have to

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Speaker 1: like fill out new information every year and it has

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Speaker 1: to be exactly right, and it's very intense, and so

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Speaker 1: it's just and I was thinking, when I was in

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Speaker 1: living in government subcess housing and I was on Medicaid,

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Speaker 1: I was actually working very hard to So it's like

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Speaker 1: I'm aware of that narrative and I internalized that narrative.

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Speaker 1: And for me, so much of my experience as a

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Speaker 1: poor person as a child and as an adult is like,

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Speaker 1: let's not let people know that you're poor. Let's like

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Speaker 1: project that I am, you know, looking good and everything

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Speaker 1: is okay. My mother would always say that. My grandmother

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Speaker 1: would say make sure that your rent is paid, if

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Speaker 1: your lights are turned off, if your water is turned off,

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Speaker 1: no one knows that. But if your rent isn't paid,

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Speaker 1: you're on the street and everyone will know. So even

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Speaker 1: in that narrative, it's like it's about not letting people

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Speaker 1: know that you're struggling, and that is the shame of it,

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Speaker 1: Like I'm not enough and people are going to find out. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's absolutely right. It's completely fundamental to the experience of

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Speaker 1: being poor is that you're ashamed of being poor. I mean,

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Speaker 1: when you ask people who fit the definition of what

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Speaker 1: it is to be poor if they're poor, people will

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Speaker 1: usually say no, oh no, I'm I'm I'm okay, I'm okay. Now,

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Speaker 1: the problem with that is it then becomes easy to

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Speaker 1: underestimate the problem, to think that it's not as big

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Speaker 1: a problem as it is. But it profoundly affects us psychologically, emotionally.

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Speaker 1: To not be able to provide for ourselves and provide

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Speaker 1: for our family is one of the most sort of

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Speaker 1: soul destroying things that a person can live with. You

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Speaker 1: go out into your community, you don't want people to

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Speaker 1: think that you're a bad mother or you know that

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Speaker 1: you're just not pulling your weight or you haven't pulled

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Speaker 1: up your bootstraps, as that ridiculous saying goes, and you

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Speaker 1: carry it with you. It's a I don't know, it's

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Speaker 1: like a burden that sort of lives inside you. It

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Speaker 1: runs through you when you when you can leave poverty,

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Speaker 1: but poverty never leaves you. Yeah, it stays with you.

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Speaker 1: And you know, much like yourself. I grew up in

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Speaker 1: public housing in the North of Ireland, which is part

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Speaker 1: of the UK, and my parents relied on the welfare system,

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Speaker 1: the safety net that we had government subsidized housing, and

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Speaker 1: we lived around other poor and low income people because

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Speaker 1: that's what happens that people you're surrounded by. Now, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of support in those communities. People do an

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Speaker 1: awful lot to help each other. They're very resilient, but

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Speaker 1: they also understand that the wider society season is different.

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Speaker 1: I mean, even as a five or six year old, um,

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Speaker 1: I knew something wasn't quite right. I knew we weren't

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Speaker 1: like other people. And I you know, we know from

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Speaker 1: the research. I know from my work that the long

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Speaker 1: term impacts of that are profound, and you know, to

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Speaker 1: all intents and purposes, I'm a successful person. You know

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Speaker 1: I've done okay in life, but you bet that I

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Speaker 1: worry about money all the time, even when I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be thinking about it. It just stays with me because

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Speaker 1: having nothing or next to nothing in a culture that

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Speaker 1: lionizes wealth and success is an extraordinary thing to try

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Speaker 1: to liver with it. So it's not just that you're

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Speaker 1: deprived of material things, right, It's not just like you

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Speaker 1: can't make your bills from time to time, or that

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Speaker 1: you can't put food on the table. It's that you're

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Speaker 1: not deemed to be fully human in a society where

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Speaker 1: you're perpetually demonized for the circumstances that you find yourself in.

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Speaker 1: And poor people and low income people are in those

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Speaker 1: circumstances because we exist in systems that keep us are

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Speaker 1: they're designed to keep poor people poor. Like you say,

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Speaker 1: the welfare system, how many hoops do you have to

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Speaker 1: jump through to prove that you're in desperate need? And

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Speaker 1: how much energy does that take away from the things

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Speaker 1: that you know would probably help you um a bit

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Speaker 1: more in your day to day life. Um, you turn

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Speaker 1: up with the welfare office, you're made to feel like

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Speaker 1: you're they're with the begging bowl um that you're not

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Speaker 1: entitled to be there. And when you think about tens

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Speaker 1: and tens of thousands of people are working per just

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Speaker 1: like your mother would have been, people holding down jobs

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Speaker 1: that are really badly paid, whilst the people who own

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Speaker 1: those companies and corporations line their own pockets and you know,

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Speaker 1: celebrate tax breaks. I mean, it's an extraordinarily unfair system,

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Speaker 1: and it's morally wrong and it is inhumane. One of

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Speaker 1: the most um, I think agregious, I think is the

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Speaker 1: right word. Disturbing, egregious, stunning. Examples of this is are

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Speaker 1: here in the United States are largest employer, Walmart. Many

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Speaker 1: of the employees of Walmart have to go on snap

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Speaker 1: on food stands because the wages that they're making at

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Speaker 1: the largest employer in the country are not enough wages

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Speaker 1: for them to be able to eat. And the Walton

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Speaker 1: family is one of the wealthiest families obviously in the country.

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Speaker 1: So that kind of that disparity, and we we can

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Speaker 1: talk about other corporations as well here in the United

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Speaker 1: States that you know, do union busting and do all

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Speaker 1: sorts of things, and they're getting very very wealthy at

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Speaker 1: the at the top, and then their workers are barely

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Speaker 1: surviving and they're working very hard, and we still call

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Speaker 1: those people lazy. So it's like I initially wanted to

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Speaker 1: have this conversation to talk about the shame part of it,

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Speaker 1: but it's like the policy piece of it, and the

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Speaker 1: shame that we internalize is so constantly reinforced. I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about the materialism too, because it's also not just

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Speaker 1: about not having access to material, you know, things, it's

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Speaker 1: also culture. It also like if you can't afford to

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Speaker 1: go to the movies and everyone's referencing this movie, it's

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Speaker 1: like you're outside of culture. And so much of culture

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Speaker 1: here in the United States is about like what we've

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Speaker 1: consumed and being sort of outside of that. It's you're

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Speaker 1: outside of of culture in general. But I feel like

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Speaker 1: the Internet, I do feel like there's a shift in

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Speaker 1: young people talking about like having a critical relationship to

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Speaker 1: billionaires and corporations and having a critical relationship to wealth

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Speaker 1: now more than you know, maybe ten years ago. I

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Speaker 1: don't do you feel the shift happening? Well, this is

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Speaker 1: a really interesting aspect of this. My latest boat, which

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Speaker 1: obviously called The Sham Game, came out of a wider

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Speaker 1: anti poverty project that I run called Project Twisted, where

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Speaker 1: for the past three and a half years I've been

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Speaker 1: connecting with organizations, grassroots researchers, entertainers, people across the culture

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Speaker 1: to try and challenge this dominant narrative. As part of that,

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Speaker 1: we worked with a lot of young people. Were run

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Speaker 1: live events where young people presented to live audiences and

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Speaker 1: theaters their ideas for how we can change things, you know,

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Speaker 1: And it was absolutely apparent to me that these kids

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Speaker 1: got it. They understood, they could see with clear eyes.

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Speaker 1: They're not old enough to have been sort of made

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Speaker 1: cynical about the world, you know. The same kind of

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Speaker 1: kids are in the environmentalism, for instance. They got the

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Speaker 1: stigma of poverty, they got the shame of poverty, and

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Speaker 1: they really wanted to talk about it and they really

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Speaker 1: wanted to challenge it. And after we held our events,

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Speaker 1: those young people went out and set up their own

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Speaker 1: little projects and online and you know, media projects. They

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Speaker 1: did a census to look at what young people's attitudes were.

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Speaker 1: I think absolutely they're more willing and not take this

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Speaker 1: sitting down. I also think that this generation is in

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Speaker 1: a moment of change more generally, and that includes the

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Speaker 1: movement around racism, around women's rights, around trans writes about

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Speaker 1: all of this. You know, it's a very interesting moment

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Speaker 1: in the culture in terms of elevating voices of people

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Speaker 1: who have been oppressed and suppressed for so long and

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Speaker 1: so successfully that they're just baiting down. And I think

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Speaker 1: young people are going to screw this. You know, we're

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Speaker 1: being told that we're going to have less in our

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Speaker 1: bank accounts than previous generations. We're told we can't afford

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Speaker 1: to buy our own home and raise a family without

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Speaker 1: doing four jobs. So yeah, I think young people are helping,

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Speaker 1: and not include younger kind of policy makers as well,

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Speaker 1: who have been reshipping the conversation on this the last

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Speaker 1: eighteen months has been fascinating. Younger policy makers, aligned with

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Speaker 1: younger grassroots activists, allied with others who have been working

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Speaker 1: in this arena for a long time, understand that in

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Speaker 1: many ways it's a make or break situation. The you know,

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Speaker 1: the billionaire wealth over the course of the pandemic through

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Speaker 1: the roof, absolutely through the roof. You know, we had

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Speaker 1: this whole discourse about essential workers and how important they are.

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Speaker 1: And guess what we realized our society would fall apart

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Speaker 1: without these people we just pay them not a to

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Speaker 1: do it. And I think there's a grown realization that

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Speaker 1: that is not just unsustainable, but it's morally screwed up.

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Speaker 1: And both that and poverty are political choices. Poverty doesn't

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Speaker 1: exist because people want to be poor. It's a political choice.

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Speaker 1: And for instance, there are welfare systems and other wealthy

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Speaker 1: nations around the world that do create a safety net

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Speaker 1: for people. You know, it's not about pol your bootstraps up.

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Speaker 1: It's about being given a safety net that becomes a

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Speaker 1: springboard that helps you. And you know what, it helps

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Speaker 1: the wider society. It is the public good. It's good

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Speaker 1: for everyone if people at the top pay their fair

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Speaker 1: share of tax and people at the bottom of the

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Speaker 1: social scale aren't way down with the sorts of burdens

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Speaker 1: that cause genuine tragedies and people's lives. You know, you

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Speaker 1: get a big medical bill, you come pit, you're screwed,

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Speaker 1: you lose your heyes, you're living out of your car suddenly,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, these have huge traumifications. Yeah, it's there's

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Speaker 1: just there's so much there. I'm sure you're familiar with

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Speaker 1: the pro publica report that just came out about the

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Speaker 1: wealthiest I think the wealthiest men because they're all men

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Speaker 1: in the world and what they're what they're paying taxes.

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Speaker 1: I pay more money in taxes than the richest people

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Speaker 1: in the world who are billionaires. Everybody out, everybody is

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Speaker 1: paying more money than the richest people in the world

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Speaker 1: in taxes. Yes, So the pro public A report and

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Speaker 1: a lot of the others that have come out UM,

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Speaker 1: certainly over the past six months are very clear. It

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Speaker 1: was interesting that you were looking at a decade as

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Speaker 1: your barometer for saying shifting that UM, it's exponentially growing. UM.

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Speaker 1: Who needs that much money? Who needs that much? You

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Speaker 1: don't need it. What's been interesting to me in the

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Speaker 1: past few months is that reports like this come out

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Speaker 1: all the time. I know this because they're always in

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Speaker 1: my inbox. So the nerd that is me rummage in

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Speaker 1: a run and these things is aware of it. And

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Speaker 1: sometimes I wanted to bang my head off a wall

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Speaker 1: because I'm like, why is it everybody else hearing about this? UM?

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Speaker 1: But I think the pandemic is enabled more people to

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Speaker 1: become aware of this because it's just being reported more

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Speaker 1: and then people are going to understand what We'll hold

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Speaker 1: on a minute, so I'm being told that taxpayers are

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Speaker 1: subsidized in me because I need snap, I need food stamps.

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Speaker 1: But the organization that should be paying me a living

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Speaker 1: wage has had a huge tax brick. But they're not

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Speaker 1: painted in the same light. They're not painted as intergenerational

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Speaker 1: wealth pilferers, you know what I mean. It's just it's

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Speaker 1: so hypocritical on every level, and they get those tax

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Speaker 1: breaks and they don't actually raise wages. I think COVID

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Speaker 1: is a really interesting conversation to have because a lot

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Speaker 1: of the initial here in the United States anyway, the

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Speaker 1: initially PPP loans that were given to businesses were so

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Speaker 1: they would not lay off workers, right so that they

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Speaker 1: would be able to retain their workforce. And we saw

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Speaker 1: that that did not happen often that those workers were

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Speaker 1: not paid more. And then too, what has happened because

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Speaker 1: we had direct aid? I just I found this um

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Speaker 1: this this report from the Urban Institute, a prominent liberal

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Speaker 1: leaning think tank in Washington, this week projects poverty levels

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Speaker 1: in the US will sit at seven point seven percent

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Speaker 1: through the end of one down from thirteen point nine.

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Speaker 1: The decline can be attributed to a suite of policies,

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Speaker 1: including stimulus checks, enhance unemployment insurance payments and eligibility supplemental

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Speaker 1: nutrition Assistance Program SNAP payments, and refundable child tax credits.

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Speaker 1: So during a global pandemic, because people absolutely needed assistance

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Speaker 1: and insisted on it, And ironically, we had a Republican

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Speaker 1: president here in the United States who insisted on giving

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Speaker 1: direct checks to people that we were able to reduce poverty.

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Speaker 1: And if we can do it during a pandemic, why

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Speaker 1: can't we do it all the time? I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think it sort of blows up the myth. Now we're

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Speaker 1: talking about inflation, right, but like so that the inflation

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Speaker 1: conversation comes up whenever we want to sort of, you know,

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Speaker 1: invest in people. How do you think the impact of

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Speaker 1: COVID has changed the conversation or hasn't changed the conversation

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Speaker 1: around poverty. Well, it's a really really interesting one because

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Speaker 1: it's still fluid. We don't know what the endpoint is

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Speaker 1: going to be. But one of the things that definitely

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Speaker 1: happened in the United States and in other wealthy countries

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Speaker 1: that harbor this belief in the sort of, you know,

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Speaker 1: the laziness of poor people is the that make meant

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people who really believed that everything

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Speaker 1: they achieved in their lives was down to just them

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Speaker 1: and their own hard work suddenly realized that ship the

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Speaker 1: system doesn't necessarily work for everybody, and people who perhaps

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Speaker 1: had never been in financial difficulty before suddenly found themselves

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Speaker 1: in deep financial difficulty. That changes the conversation, because the

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Speaker 1: tantalizing thing about the poverty narrative is that divides people,

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Speaker 1: It polarizes people. It helps a certain group of society

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Speaker 1: believe that they deserve everything they have, and if you

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Speaker 1: don't have, you are undeserving. The last eighteen months is

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Speaker 1: blown that out of the water, because it's patently obvious

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Speaker 1: that we rely on systems to help us, to help

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Speaker 1: all of us. And we've been fortunate enough that the

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Speaker 1: discourse was beginning to shift a little bit before there

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Speaker 1: was more of a high profile given to questions around

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Speaker 1: poverty and what it does to people, on how we

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Speaker 1: can help people, and now we've had an opportunity ready

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Speaker 1: to do that. And obviously, going forward, their predictions that

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Speaker 1: child poverty in America could be reduced by five million,

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Speaker 1: which I mean that is a serious amount of children

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Speaker 1: as a direct result of policies that two years ago

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Speaker 1: would have been knocked out of the water because they

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Speaker 1: would have been deemed as reinforcing welfare dependency. And it's

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Speaker 1: become harder um too pump out that particular narrative because

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Speaker 1: it's doom what it's designed to do, which is to

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Speaker 1: lift people out of poverty and to give them a

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Speaker 1: fighting chance. So we're now gathering evidence that really really matters,

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Speaker 1: and we're saying what people do with the money that

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Speaker 1: they get, and we're able to talk about the fact that, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, when all the politicians and think tanks were

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Speaker 1: saying that if you give poor people money, they'll just

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Speaker 1: go out and blow it on drugs and gambling. Well

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Speaker 1: guess what. That does not happen. They spend it on

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Speaker 1: their children, They invest in their homes and their families

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Speaker 1: and their unity. And because we're a consumer economy, it

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Speaker 1: actually is better for the economy because they's been the

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Speaker 1: money right exact exactly. Poor and low income people get

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Speaker 1: money in their pockets and they spend it. Rich people

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Speaker 1: put it offshore or handed off to the next generation,

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Speaker 1: and it does nothing. So this is why the common

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Speaker 1: good aspect of this really matters. But we're in this

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Speaker 1: peculiar experiment at the moment where enough is being done

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Speaker 1: to make really big changes in people's lives, and that

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Speaker 1: helps dismantle this narrative that has basically taken root over

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Speaker 1: the past forty years. I mean it's not new. People

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Speaker 1: were always blamed for being poor, but it has been

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Speaker 1: particularly prevalent in the past sort of four decades. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I always think about the person whose pocket

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Speaker 1: that money is going into. What does that mean for

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Speaker 1: that person? What can they feed their families? You know?

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Speaker 1: And the cultural point you made is really important because

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Speaker 1: you know, can you bring your kid Doom Museum to

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Speaker 1: the theater? You know? Can can you have some money

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Speaker 1: just to let your child see what the possibilities of

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Speaker 1: the world are, rather than having to try to protect

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Speaker 1: them from this constant barrage of blaming and shamming that

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Speaker 1: goes on. I think it's a really unusual and interesting time. Well,

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Speaker 1: many of those programs are said to expire, um, so

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Speaker 1: it'll be really interesting to see what happens. This is

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Speaker 1: a good time to take a little break. We'll be

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Speaker 1: right back though, Okay, we're back. As a black person,

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Speaker 1: I always think about the role of the narratives around

430
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: welfare and race and how they play themselves out in

431
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 1: the United States here specifically, And I'm curious about your

432
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 1: perspective on race poverty in the United States versus the

433
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,959
Speaker 1: UK specific pick la Do you feel it plays itself

434
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: out in the same way in the UK that it

435
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: does in the here in the United States, it's not.

436
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 1: It's not exactly the same, but it's the same in

437
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: the sense that there are higher rates of poverty among

438
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: people of color, and black people in particular tend to

439
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: be in the lowest economic strata of society. So that

440
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: is pretty similar in the sense that just the physical

441
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: reality of the numbers tells us that if you are black,

442
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: you are more likely to be living in poverty. So

443
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: that's the same. The narrative that reinforces, that that entrenches

444
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: that is similar on a broad level in the UK

445
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: and America, But it hasn't It has a different kind

446
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: of hue because of America's history UM specifically obviously with

447
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: slavery and the intergenerational denial of wealth to black people

448
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: in black communities, and that is fundamental now one of

449
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: the one of the real interesting moments in the history

450
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: of this UM And I won't go on about too much,

451
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: because otherwise it's just like going down a rabbit hole.

452
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:13,479
Speaker 1: But the symbol of welfare in the nineteen eighties was

453
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 1: this idea of the welfare queen. Right. It was a

454
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: completely racialized trope, and it was deliberate and it absolutely

455
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: made it easier in subsequent years for cuts to welfare

456
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: that helped poor families. Now I'm sure your listeners will

457
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: be more than familiar with this, but essentially it, you know,

458
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: one woman becomes this mythic stereotype for people who live

459
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: high on the hog on welfare. I mean that in

460
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: itself was ridiculous because frankly, you don't live high in

461
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: the hog when you're scrapping around for like, you know,

462
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: scraps under the table. But it absolutely married, and there's

463
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: lots of great resources around. This married the idea of

464
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: welfare in America to race, and it fed into that

465
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: normalization of associating race with poverty. Again, you add on

466
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: to that the idea that poor people are lazy, and

467
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: suddenly a million different stereotypes come into play. It was

468
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: a very effective true and it wasn't just the you know,

469
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: people on the right who bought entered you know, the

470
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: Clinton administration did some serious damage, and especially to women

471
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 1: who needed help, women with children. It was, you know,

472
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:42,959
Speaker 1: which is why also single mothers were demonized as well.

473
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: So and this this put down very very deep roots

474
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: and that becomes a symbol. But because the historic discrimination

475
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: around black people in black communities has meant that they

476
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: have been more poor than other groups in society, then

477
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: you don't I mean it's not even dog whistles. I

478
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: mean it's you know, the narrative physically is poor equals

479
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: black equals let's say, yeah, and then to not internalize

480
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: shame around that as a black person, right, like the

481
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: levels of shame that I've internalized around that as a

482
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: black person not being that stereotype. It's also not just

483
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: about you know, needing assistance in being lazy. It's also

484
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: being uneducated. It's also being unkempt. And so there's all

485
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: this respectability politics that I've deeply internalized. There's just so

486
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: many layers to the shame when it's intersectional like that,

487
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: and when it's race and class and the demonizing of

488
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: single mothers continues to this day, and it is, um

489
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: it's very personal for me, and I know I shouldn't

490
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: take things personally. But my mom was a single mother

491
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: and and I turned out pretty well. You know, I

492
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: turned out pretty well. And there's this narrative that, like,

493
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: particularly conservatives in this country, push that like single motherhood

494
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: is like ruining the country and we need to parent households,

495
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: and like, I'm sure that's lovely. I don't have that

496
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: experience personally, but like to demonize a woman who worked

497
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: so hard to take care of her kids, who like sacrifice,

498
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,719
Speaker 1: and who did everything she could, and I know so

499
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: many other mothers who are doing the same thing, it's

500
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: just so utterly disrespectful. It's inhumane, and it pisces me off.

501
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, that was just still little rand um. Well,

502
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: you know, it pisses me off to That's why I

503
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: started writing about this stuff. But the the internalizing of

504
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: shame in general is very, very destructive and disorient and

505
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: and it's very effective for the people who want to

506
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: keep people done. It's a very effective tool because we

507
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: start to blame ourselves for things that we're finding difficult. Uh.

508
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: I recall so many occasions where I was in situations

509
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: at school or when I got to university where I

510
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: did not understand the social codes. I did not understand

511
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: the way people spoke to each other or the signal

512
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: and that they did. When I went from my first

513
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: like proper job after college, I didn't know how to

514
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: even do an interview properly. You know it was it

515
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: holds you back in so many ways and you're ashamed

516
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: on so many levels that almost it's like keep closing

517
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: on yourself, right, And then if you're an ambitious person,

518
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: I admit I really wanted to be the best I

519
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: could be. Um, you don't want to be labeled and

520
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: you certainly don't want to be pitied. And one of

521
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: the things in the UK that used to be said

522
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,479
Speaker 1: a lot if you complained or brought up issues around

523
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: poverty and the experience of poverty, well so you've got

524
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: a chip on your shoulder and I'm like, what what

525
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: are you even talking about? I've got to SI, this

526
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: is my reality. Don't do down my reality. For the

527
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: first part of my career, I didn't focus on these

528
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: issues because I still was carrying that um shame and

529
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: didn't want to be pigeonholed as as this is my

530
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: whole identity. But as I got older, and especially in

531
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: the wake of the financial crisis, and they're just so

532
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: much like trauma around poverty going on and poor people

533
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: being attacked again and again again. I felt like I

534
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: had to spick up. And what I found, and it's

535
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: fascinating to me, is that once you start talking about

536
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: these things, once you start challenging they perceived understanding of

537
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: these things, you find it there are people everywhere who

538
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: want to do the same. And when I was building

539
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: Project Twisted, I thought, oh, my god, is anybody going

540
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: to talk to me for this? Is anybody gonna do?

541
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: And I had authors, musicians, poets, kids who had made

542
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: their very first film in their public house, and complex

543
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: just said yes, please, can I be part of this?

544
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: Can I be part of this? It made me realize

545
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: that there was no real movement to run this stuff,

546
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: you know, you, there was no way to connect with people.

547
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: It was very reassuring to find so much work going on,

548
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: especially creatively, to challenge these stories that we're told. But

549
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: we needed to find ways to talk to each other.

550
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: So at the end of October, for instance, in the UK,

551
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: there's going to be a working Class Writers Festival for

552
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: the first time that is champion in the voices of

553
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,959
Speaker 1: people from those backgrounds, and you know, as diverse as

554
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: it's possible to get people normally excluded from the culture,

555
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: and that really that really tells me that there is

556
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: a willingness to not just take this anymore. But here's

557
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: the thing. As much and you brought up the point

558
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: about things experiment that are helping people, as much as

559
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: that progress is happening, if we look at the history

560
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: of shaming poor people, the people who do the organizations

561
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: that they're not going to take this sitting down. They're

562
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: going to be on the attack, and especially in the

563
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: US with in the terms next year, I would guess

564
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: that in our current polarized society there is going to

565
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: be an awful lot more of this. And how that

566
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: plays out well, I think determine what happens in the

567
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: years afterwards. They know shaming people works and dividing people

568
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: also works. What I love about twist it and and

569
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: what you just said is that if we have more

570
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: media representations where people get to tell their stories, then

571
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: narrative can begin to change. And then what I know

572
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: about shame, according to Berne Brown's work anyway, is that

573
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: when we speak our shaming story um and are met

574
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: with empathy, the shame dissipates, and I was just thinking

575
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: about like that on an inter personal level, and that

576
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: like in the context of an auditorium, But then what

577
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: would that look like in the context of like poor

578
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: people getting to tell their stories in the context of

579
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: government and actually being greeted with empathy instead of your lazy,

580
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: your lazy, you're lazy. I think too, What's what I

581
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: find curious? And I'm not familiar with the UK, but

582
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: what I feel like is happening here in the United

583
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: States with the poverty narrative. What takes a more media

584
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: space are sort of cultural wars around like now mask

585
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: and vaccines, trans people in sports, and so what the

586
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: Conservative Party here does is like sort of weaponizes cultural

587
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 1: issues that are usually based in racism, transphobia, UM, xenophobia,

588
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: et cetera. And so they use that to divide working

589
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: class people and then they're like doing tax breaks there

590
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 1: for rich people. They're you know, doing austerity programs, are

591
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: cutting you know things, But then people aren't even paying

592
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 1: attention and don't even aware of that because we're in

593
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 1: this cultural war thing. So it's like this whole sort

594
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: of divide and conquer thing. And I often think like

595
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: what if all working class people of all races like

596
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 1: got together and said, okay, wait a minute, wait a minute,

597
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: like okay, like, how is it that the richest man

598
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: in the world are paying nothing like zero in taxes.

599
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: I'm paying more, but people who make less money than

600
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: me are paying more, like not just just a percentage

601
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 1: of their income, just in terms of the actual number

602
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: than these billionaires. Yeah, you know, this is so this

603
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: is so right because one of the things about being

604
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: poor it's it's exhausted. It is exhausted, either because you're

605
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: doing four jobs and trying to bring up some kids

606
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: and find some child car but also you're trying to

607
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: process so much. You're trying, you know, you're carrying so

608
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: much trauma from the poverty that you are less able

609
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: to find time, just time to my life and get together.

610
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: It's so infuriating. I know, it's just I know, when

611
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: that pro Publica report came out, I was so instantly.

612
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,439
Speaker 1: But the billionaires have so much money, we can't even

613
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: compute it. Yeah, and you refuse to let you let

614
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 1: your workers unionize. That's the fundamental thing, isn't it. People

615
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,720
Speaker 1: don't get their rights given to them by those with power.

616
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: They have to fight for them. And unions have been

617
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 1: like in the history of working people, unions have been

618
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: absolutely fundamental to not just the amount the money that

619
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: goes into people's pockets, but horse if their work environment

620
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: is you know, health insurance, like just you know, a

621
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: five day work week as opposed to like working at

622
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: them any of the week. From my union as an actor,

623
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: like so that we're the turnaround and the hours and

624
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 1: there's so many things that my union protects me from

625
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 1: as an actor that it's invaluable. And unions have been

626
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: decimated in this country. And another thing that Reagan did

627
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: and started, you know in the eighties, and that's where

628
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: the UK and America are absolutely singing from the Samim

629
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: shade because Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher did that in

630
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: unison attacked the unions. By the late seven days, unions

631
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: were still pretty strong. And then come the eighties absolutely decimated.

632
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: And with it where is and the narrative and the

633
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: narrative to when you watch when when you see the narrative,

634
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: unions are terrible teachers and unions, I mean they're just

635
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: so routinely demonized as like holding back progress like that.

636
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: It's been so successful. What I marvel at is how

637
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: brilliant Republicans are in this country at propaganda, getting getting

638
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: a message, saying it over it. It could be a

639
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: complete lion fabrication, but get everybody getting on the same page,

640
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: saying it over and over and over again, relentlessly until

641
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: it almost seems like it's the truth. So it's and

642
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: that the Democratic Party or liberals or the left do

643
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: not have a response that is commiserated to the attack

644
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 1: that is happening from the right. There is not a desire,

645
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: a willingness to exercise power in the same way for

646
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: the people. And it is it's it's it's shocking to me.

647
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: It really is shock king to me that Democrats have

648
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: are so feckless and how and and don't understand exactly

649
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 1: what they're up against. They really when Joe Biden wants

650
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 1: to be bipartisan with a party that thinks he's stole

651
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: an election, well it's the classic you bring a knife

652
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 1: to a gunfight, you know, But you're absolutely right, You're

653
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: so spot on, because that's exactly why the narrative does

654
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: what it does. It's simple, and it's repeated over and

655
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: over and over again until people believe that it is

656
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: the absolute truth. And there's and I think it's I

657
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: think it's because of corporate interests for Democrats that ultimately

658
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: they are serving the same corporate interest is Republicans. I

659
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: think that's part of it. I think the media is

660
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: part of it. But it's just it's like, it's I

661
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 1: furious and get a clue, Get a clue these people are.

662
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: They're not playing fair. It's like literally Texas abortion. I mean,

663
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: it's like it's happening right now. Actually, this is the moment.

664
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: And what it is so sad about them not link

665
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: to being willing to end that filibuster, is that this

666
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: is the moment. If we don't do Philipbus reform right now,

667
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: if we don't do election reform right now, if we

668
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: don't do Supreme Court Supreme Court we need to expand

669
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 1: the court, all of these things. If we don't change

670
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: the system fundamentally in a legislative way, we're screwed, probably

671
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: for a generation. Yeah, I agree, I completely agree. And

672
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: this missed opportunity will disillusion so many people too, because

673
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 1: the fight that went on last year to do what

674
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: people did to you know, get the Drump administration gone. Um,

675
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: you know, people will go, well, why did I fight

676
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: so hard when they didn't fight for me, And it's like,

677
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: it's so hard to have any kind of hope and

678
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: I don't at this moment, and I'm like, I want

679
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: to be a hopeful, positive person, but it it's like, yeah,

680
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: I hear you. But they're helping positive moves on that.

681
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: So like the Poor People's Campaign here in the US,

682
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: for instance, right, which is very much about building an

683
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 1: ally this of you know, profile in the verious different

684
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: aspects of this, like the impact on people of color,

685
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: but also going you know what, they turned me against

686
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: you because it suits them to turn me against you

687
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: when we have the same interests, we have the same dreams,

688
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: you know, we have the same goals for our families.

689
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: So I think there's a realization of that, there's a

690
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 1: realization that this division of people, this shaming of people,

691
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: only happens because it's effective. So the question becomes harder

692
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: you kinteract something that has been so effective, mainly because

693
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: it's so simple, but also because it is propagated by

694
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: a media that is either complicit in this message or

695
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,479
Speaker 1: actively promoting this message. And there's a lot of thought

696
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: going into this right now, and the language that we

697
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: use is crucial. The way we frame discussions is crucial.

698
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: Who gets to say when and to who is crucial. Right.

699
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: So the empathy point you make is a really important

700
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: one because it's strengthens it gives us more power and

701
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: self respect um. But it takes it away from pity

702
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: because the thing that doesn't get discussed a lot around

703
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,720
Speaker 1: the shaming is this. We we can see the overt

704
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: shaming and blaming and calling people Lisa, but historically the

705
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: people who have set out to help poor people are

706
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: often doing it well meaning, but from a position of

707
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: paternalism or pity, and that does not work anymore than

708
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: vilifying and blaming people works because guess what, people who

709
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: are poor are, just like everybody else, have agency and

710
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: they are the experts in their own situation, right absolutely,

711
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: So that's who we listen to. And there is more

712
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: of that happening and in politics and in eider society,

713
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: but I think it's still quite early days and it's

714
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: very fragile. It's a very fragile situation up and precisely

715
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: for the points that you make, because it cuts across

716
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 1: this binary, divided cultural space that we inhabit, and the

717
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: tools and techniques that have been used to keep people

718
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 1: done for a very long time are going to keep

719
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 1: being used for as long as they're effective. Absolutely, absolutely. Um.

720
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: It feels sort of insurmountable here in the States to

721
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:38,280
Speaker 1: me sometimes because so much when we have a democratic presidency, Senate,

722
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 1: and House and then we still can't get things done

723
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: because of the filibuster, and that the filibuster becomes a

724
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: cover for Democrats to protect corporate interest, right so that

725
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 1: they have to keep the filibuster in place to use

726
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: as an excuse so that they can like you know,

727
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 1: please their corporate donors. And so then we don't get

728
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: an equality Act, we don't get like a four the

729
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: people like the democracies on the line, and then all

730
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: these programs that we could be doing a fifteen dollar

731
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: minimum way it really should be twenty five dollars right now,

732
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: fighting for fifteen dollars for like twelve years. Yeah, I

733
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: mean the federal minimum wage has been the same for

734
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: more than a decade, and you're kind of like, well,

735
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,240
Speaker 1: when you look at the numbers, had it just followed

736
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: inflation from nine, it would be like forty in all,

737
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: which is what it should be, you know. But but

738
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: that's that's done to push and push and pushing this

739
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: idea of people being undeserved, and uh like, Fight for

740
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: Fifteen has done a brilliant job in recent years of

741
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 1: putting this out there, getting media attention. It's been a

742
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: very effective campaign in terms of people realizing it. But

743
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,760
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, we shouldn't be stuck on the fifteen dollars.

744
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: It should be much more. That is the lowest possible

745
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: threshold people cannot live on. That people can't live on that.

746
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: And I don't have the source, but there was a

747
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: recent report that noted that the current minimum wage, which

748
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: is like seven dollars an hour in most American cities,

749
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 1: you can't rent a one bit froom apartment for that. Okay,

750
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: it's that time again. A lot more is coming though,

751
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: we're back. You tell this story in your book about

752
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: the intersection of disability and poverty, which is which is

753
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: really important to talk about because you talk about in

754
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: the book how you know this is in the UK,

755
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,479
Speaker 1: how so many people with disabilities had to like jump

756
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: through all these hoops to prove that they were disabled

757
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: and unable to work, and often died in the process.

758
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: Do you want to relay one of the stories from

759
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 1: your book about this. Yeah. So, basically after the financial crisis,

760
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 1: when the UK introduced absolutely awful austerity program, it affected

761
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: the groups that you expected to effect really badly, women,

762
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: people of color, etcetera, but also disabled people. So they

763
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: wanted to cut benefits for disabled people and they use

764
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: this poverty narrative to justify it. They put in place,

765
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: you know, work requirements. Look into America by the way,

766
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: That's what they were getting their ideas from, and they

767
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: kind of very long and complicated story short. Disabled people

768
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 1: were having to go to say for interviews, right. Um.

769
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: I met people who got to their interview and the

770
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,240
Speaker 1: person who's deciding whether or not they're getting any financial

771
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: support says that if they could get on the bus,

772
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: that means they're fine. They can get a job right now.

773
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: If you've got a chronic illness and four days of

774
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: the week you can't move, but it just so happened

775
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 1: that you have managed to get out of bed that day.

776
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: I had whistleblowers come to me who were working in

777
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: employment centers deciding whether people get unemployment benefit, and they

778
00:46:54,800 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: were being incentivized to not give people what they're entire to,

779
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: including people who were dying of cancer, and thousands and

780
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: thousands of disabled people. Um. One story I came across

781
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: was a person who had a heart attack during the

782
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 1: interview when they were being told that they were fit

783
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: to work. I mean, there are so many stories. There

784
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 1: are so many stories of suicides as a result of this,

785
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,399
Speaker 1: People who were being hunded have been denied their say,

786
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: housing support, they weren't getting their housing support, and people

787
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: losing three or four stone and then killing themselves because

788
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: they just couldn't cope anymore. I mean, it was a

789
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: hounding of disabled people and I have to sell around.

790
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you brought this topic up because it's

791
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 1: many of the discussions around this, and around diversity in

792
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: general and social justice in general. Disabled people are often ignored,

793
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: and there are great movements like crypto vote, for instance,

794
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: that are pushing back against this. But you know, as

795
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: a society, what the hell are we doing? You know,

796
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: what are we doing when we're not providing the proper

797
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: safety net and support systems for people with disabilities. It's

798
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: a huge number of people. Most of us will get

799
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: a disability at some point if we're lucky enough to

800
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 1: live a long time. It's a society wide issue, and

801
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 1: in the UK, I mean it's a sham. It's an

802
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 1: absolute sham on that country that it did what it did.

803
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: And my book before this documents and a lot more detail,

804
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 1: um if you know, if people want to check that out,

805
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: But it's an active object, cruelty and certainly drummed home

806
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: to me the degree to which these things are political choices.

807
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, So there's the there's the policy piece and

808
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: and how that's functioning and movement organizing to begin to

809
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: do that. But on a personal level, I mean even

810
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 1: for me at this stage, and I've done so much

811
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: work on shame in my own personal life, but you know,

812
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 1: I have like in my head narratives around like, well,

813
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: I don't want to theme Tachi and new vote reach

814
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: and like I don't want to seem like I mean,

815
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: it's just it just kind of keeps going in terms

816
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 1: of like shame around poverty and them and ghetto and like.

817
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: But then like for individuals out there who are struggling

818
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 1: with with shame around being poor and working class, now

819
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: having had that in their path, what can we begin

820
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 1: to do? I think talking about it is is crucial, Um,

821
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: what what would what would you suggest? Yeah? I completely agree,

822
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 1: And you know the fact that we talked about how

823
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: poverty is bloody exhausting, right, So you know, not everyone

824
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: can be an activist. Absolutely, not everyone can be a spokesperson.

825
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: Not everyone wants to be a spokesperson. And that is

826
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 1: absolutely okay because there are people who will do those things.

827
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: But in our everyday lives and our everyday existences, it's

828
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: like any of the other great social injustices of our time.

829
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 1: You know, in our interactions with people, do we call

830
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: them out when they denigrate people, when they make a

831
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 1: dismissive comment or use a demeaning kind of stereotype to

832
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: talk about people on poverty, Like, we all need to

833
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: call them out. We need to be conscious that all

834
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: of us have a responsibility to do that. Um, those

835
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: of us that can't tell our stories will and should

836
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: tell our stories. And this one is very interesting to me,

837
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: and I'd be really interested to hear if it's something

838
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: that you come across a lot as well. So when

839
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 1: I'm talking about these issues from a personal experience, and

840
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: people will say things like, well, look at your your

841
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: proof that if you put yourself up by your bootstraps.

842
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: You know you can do whatever you you got out, well,

843
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: why can't everybody else get out? All right? And that

844
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 1: only makes me more determined to tell my story because

845
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 1: I know for a fact that no matter how hard

846
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: I worked or what natural talents I was given, I

847
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: relied on the social and welfare structures around me to

848
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 1: be a springboard. I had access to free health care

849
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 1: as a child. I had free education, free education university.

850
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: The government paid me to go to university, So yeah,

851
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 1: I had to take advantage of it. I had to

852
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: do the work. But don't tell me and people like

853
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 1: me that, because we have been seen to succeed by

854
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: society's norms, that the other people who don't fit that

855
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: particular picture must be lazy. And I think unless we

856
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 1: talk about that, unless we confront those misunderstandings, those perceptions

857
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: in our everyday lives, then people will only believe the

858
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: stories that they're told. And let's face facts of them.

859
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 1: Because if you're from a poor background, the chances are

860
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: almost everyone you know is from the same background. If

861
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: you're from a wealthy background, when do you ever encounter

862
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: people from poor backgrounds, unless it's say, you're cleaner or

863
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: you're cook or something, and you probably don't talk to

864
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 1: them anyway. So those of us that can shoot talk

865
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,839
Speaker 1: about it and do it publicly, and elephant voices that

866
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: are marginalized. You know, I think about privilege, right, I

867
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: think about that every black trans person doesn't have the

868
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: same privileges that I had in the privilege even though

869
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,280
Speaker 1: we were poor. My mother was a teacher and corrected

870
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: my grammar all the time, and the kids may offended

871
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: means that I talked proper. But then I also begged

872
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: my mother to let me audition for the Alabama School

873
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: to Find Arts, which was in Birmingham, Alabama, four hours

874
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: north of Mobile, and so I was in the dorms there,

875
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: and not only was that a wonderful arts education, I

876
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: was surrounded by kids from very privileged backgrounds and I

877
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: got to see it's different level of possibility that I

878
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,879
Speaker 1: wouldn't have seen if I weren't in that school. And

879
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 1: then I also learned how to make white people comfortable.

880
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: And that one of the crucial things about surviving, I

881
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 1: think as a black person in America is learning how

882
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: to make white people comfortable. And I don't it sounds funny,

883
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 1: but but but I don't think. But I don't think

884
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 1: we should have to do that. I don't think re

885
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 1: black person gets the skills to know how to do

886
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,319
Speaker 1: that or even wants to do that. And I'm not

887
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 1: suggesting they should, but like in my space of survival,

888
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 1: I just sort of learned how to do that and

889
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 1: I look a certain way. And then even with all

890
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: of that privilege, I you know, I had to loan

891
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,720
Speaker 1: debt and credit card debt and I didn't become famous

892
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 1: till I was forty one years old. So so even

893
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 1: with all of the you know, I was poor. So

894
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: I mean, poverty is really not an advantage and we

895
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 1: you know, but I think, I mean, I lived most

896
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: of my adult life like working in restaurants for tips

897
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 1: and barely surviving. And and I'm actually really grateful for

898
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 1: that because I think if I had become famous in

899
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:44,280
Speaker 1: my twenties, I wouldn't have an understanding of like how

900
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: poor people are continually demonized, how hard it is to

901
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 1: just survive in the world, and I wouldn't have a

902
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 1: critical awareness of that. And I know that this system

903
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: has always been set up to to elevate one or

904
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: two people, like we look throughout history, particularly as a

905
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: black person. I'm aware of this that, like, you know,

906
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 1: there's been a few elevated here and there throughout the

907
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: history of America, and that's sort of how the system

908
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,919
Speaker 1: functions as well. Let's like elevate a few and say

909
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 1: oh they can do it, then anybody can do it. Yeah,

910
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 1: And that's how these narratives functioned because you know, they say, oh,

911
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 1: there's that person, you know, as if that person is

912
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 1: representative of an entire community or should carry the identity

913
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: of an entire community on their shoulders. But it allows

914
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: people to go, well, you know, people get by some people.

915
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: You know Obama as president, you know, you get that

916
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: kind of nonsense. But you know, each and every one

917
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,919
Speaker 1: of us has the circumstances around us that we have

918
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:44,839
Speaker 1: various degrees of privilege, various degrees of alienation and isolation

919
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: and all of that. But fundamentally, if we have systems

920
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 1: in place they don't deliberately and actively keep people done,

921
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: then they're just as more opportunity. And that matters. It

922
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 1: matters on so many offals, and not least so that

923
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: you don't walk around your whole life feeling ashamed of

924
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: where you came from. Yeah, before I asked my last

925
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: question that I asked all my guests, is there something

926
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 1: you want to leave the people with as we go

927
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: go forward into this continued to struggle for our own

928
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: sort of lifting our own shame and then lifting the

929
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: cultural shame around poverty. Yeah, don't be part of the problem.

930
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: You know, just don't be part of the problem. Um.

931
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 1: It's understandable that as a culture we've absorbed all these

932
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 1: messages and it's convenient to just go along with whatever

933
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,280
Speaker 1: the status cool with, but be question and be critical

934
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 1: if you're not. If you're the sort of person that's

935
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 1: lived a life where you haven't had to struggle or

936
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 1: you haven't had to fight, just keep a roof over

937
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: your head. Just ask yourself once in a while if

938
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: you really did it all yourself? Or was it that

939
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 1: or was it that grid school and all the other

940
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: privileges that you had, And just don't accept the messages

941
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: that you're told at face failure. Yeah, I love that

942
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: we always have to be critical. So I end um

943
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: every podcast with the question, um, what else is true?

944
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 1: And this question comes from my somatic therapy based in

945
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: the community resiliency model, and the idea is both and

946
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,359
Speaker 1: if there's something challenging us in our lives or even

947
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 1: in our body, and we sort of become what we

948
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 1: focus on. We can focus on the difficulty, or we

949
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 1: can focus on the thing that is neutral and positive

950
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: and that thing that helps us get through. So for

951
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: you today, Mary O'Hara, for you, what else it's true?

952
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 1: Oh wow? Um? I think it's true that human rights

953
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 1: and human dignity are necessary for all of us to

954
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 1: live the best life that we can live. And it's

955
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 1: true that as individuals we can make a difference, but

956
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 1: together we can make a hell of a bigger difference

957
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:05,840
Speaker 1: than on our own. Mm hmmm. Amen. Amen. And it's like,

958
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 1: you know, it keeps coming up on the podcast. A

959
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 1: lot of these episodes have been about like mental health

960
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 1: and well being and connection. Connect Him is coming back

961
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 1: to love and connection for me over and over and

962
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: over again. And so what we can do together makes

963
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 1: me think about like how do we then connect to

964
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:25,440
Speaker 1: each other? And we connect through telling the truth of

965
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 1: our stories, um, with the things that we have in

966
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 1: common and our shared humanity. And as we can begin

967
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: to do that, then maybe maybe there's hope that we're

968
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: not alone. No, we're not, Thank you so much. Mary

969
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: O'Hara is the author of the shame Game, Overcoming the

970
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 1: Toxic Poverty Narrative, and also your previous book, Austerity Bites.

971
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: Are you on social media? Can folks on follow you

972
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: on on anyway? Yeah? Sure, I'm I'm on Twitter, easy

973
00:57:56,240 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: to find Mary O'Hara one and on Instagram. Mary Uhara writer,

974
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 1: so fairly simple, love it, Thank you so much. I'm

975
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 1: so grateful for you and your work. Project Twisted is awesome.

976
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 1: There's actually a YouTube channel for a project Twisted, and

977
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 1: there's just some great um content there from young people

978
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: that I love and I love hearing people's lived experiences

979
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: in their story, so I encourage people to go and

980
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 1: check that out as well. Thank you and thank you

981
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 1: for having me. It was an absolute delight, Mary O'Hara.

982
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: The biggest takeaway from me after that conversation is an invitation,

983
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 1: I think to myself, an invitation to everyone out there

984
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 1: who's listening to critically interrogate the assumptions that we've made

985
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: about poverty in general, about people who are poor, and

986
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 1: how we've internalized those messages in relationship to ourselves. If

987
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 1: we are not struggling with poverty or never have. What

988
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 1: is our relationship to our own wealth and privilege and

989
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 1: how does that relate to narratives that we've heard and

990
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: or internalized around people who might be struggling. And I

991
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: think we have to change the story first. When we're

992
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: talking about shame, we internalize shame, We shame ourselves, and

993
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 1: then we can shame other people. And we live in

994
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 1: a culture that shames other people and blames people for

995
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 1: situations that it might not be their fault. So I

996
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 1: invite you um think about changing the narratives that you

997
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 1: have in your head, in your social circles, and maybe

998
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 1: you know more globally around poverty, think about your own

999
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: personal staken in your own personal part in it, and

1000
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 1: then what are the systems in place? Thank you so

1001
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 1: much for listening to the Laverne Cox Show. Join me

1002
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: next week for my second conversation with my incredible therapist

1003
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 1: Jennifer Byrne Flyer to go even deeper into the tools

1004
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: of the community resiliency model. So much of this step

1005
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: is connected, It's all connected. Please rate, review, subscribe and

1006
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: share with everyone you know. You can find me on

1007
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 1: Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at

1008
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 1: Laverne Cox for Real. Until next time, Stay in the loud.

1009
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show is a production of Shonda land

1010
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts

1011
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 1: from Shonda land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,

1012
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.