1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: I'm Deblina Chok Rewarding and I'm far Dali, and today 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: we are taking another look at blood blood work specifically 5 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: blood work specifically. We got a chance to go see 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: Holly Tucker, who is an associate professor at Vanderbilt University 7 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: in Nashville, Tennessee, speak at the Decatur Book Festival about 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: her new book called Blood Work, A Tale of Medicine 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: and Murder and the Scientific Revolution. And Holly's book covers 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: the first blood transfusion, the first human blood transfusion performed 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: by a man named Jean Baptiste in ny in France 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: and believe it or not, the sixteen hundreds, And she 13 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: talks a little bit in this book about how his 14 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: experiments were shut down and why and the murder mystery 15 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: surrounding this whole thing. So in a part one of 16 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: our interview with Holly Tucker, we talked a little bit 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: with her about the history of blood circulation and blood transfusion, 18 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: just to get a little bit of background to the 19 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: story where they were coming from. Yeah, how did they 20 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: even get to this point? Where they were doing blood 21 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: transfusions in the sixteen hundreds, and so she talked to 22 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: us a little bit about that and people's previous notions 23 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: about blood and the rivalry between England and France and 24 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: getting to do the first blood transfusion, and then the 25 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: experiments themselves well, in the rivalry between the Paris elite 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: and the more upstart rural doctor Denny, and that's kind 27 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: of the center of the story dennis personal experiments in 28 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: blood transfusions, and as Holly mentioned in the earlier interview, 29 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: Denny ultimately gets himself into trouble by transfusing a madman. 30 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: It's a publicity ploy, essentially, he wants to do a 31 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: successful transfusion on essentially the most famous and in Paris, 32 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: and he hoped that that way he'll make a name 33 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: for himself. The guy doesn't die immediately, but he does 34 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: eventually and Danny goes in on murder charges. Danny is 35 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: eventually acquitted for this crime, but it's clear that the 36 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: patient had been murdered, just not by him, not by 37 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: a blood transfusion either. No, there were other people involved, 38 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: and poison arsenic specifically, so that part of the interview 39 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: had a lot to do with the heart of the book, 40 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: the story. This part of the interview has a lot 41 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: more to do with the sort of flute aspect Holly's research, 42 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: not only into the murder, because she did, after all, 43 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: solve a cold case from the sixteen hundreds, but about 44 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: the ins and outs of seventeenth century life in Paris. 45 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: That was one of the most fascinating parts about the 46 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: book to me, how much medieval Paris was recreated. Yeah, 47 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: it really reads like a novel, even though it's a 48 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: work of nonfiction. She'll talk about that, and we're going 49 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: to talk about that in a little bit, But we 50 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: really wanted to find out how she went about putting 51 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: this together, So that's what we're going to cover in 52 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: this episode. So obviously our first question for Holly really 53 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: was that how she put the book take other In 54 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: the last interview, she mentioned that she suspected that a 55 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: fear of hybrid species was the root of the murder. 56 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: People were really afraid that transfusing animal blood into humans 57 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: might affect their humanity, might turn them into something else, 58 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: some sort of hybrid monster. So since she suspected that fear, 59 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: we wanted to know where she started. How did she 60 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: start off looking for the murderers with just that little inkling. 61 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: Here's what she had to say. Well, first I have 62 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: to tell you is when I first proposed the book 63 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: to my editor, I had a real sense I knew 64 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: who it was. I knew who it was, and in fact, 65 00:03:55,520 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: the entire proposal was around one person, because I knew 66 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: that this person, who was part of the medical elite, 67 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: was deeply afraid of of any type of scientific tinkering 68 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: with human, human and animal species barriers. So I spent 69 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: a couple of years on the trail of my main suspect, 70 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: and spent several months in Paris going through the archives 71 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: of the French Academy of Sciences, spending time in the 72 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: archives of the medical library there, and uh, unfortunately, I 73 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: could not find anything that would allow me to stay 74 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: with any certitude that he had done it. I then 75 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: made a list of other potential suspects and other potential motives, 76 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: went back to France, dug around, and I couldn't find 77 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: anything there. And I started to despair because I essentially 78 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: had a murder. I essentially had suspects, but I couldn't 79 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 1: figure out who did it. And I was just ready 80 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: to give up, when, in fact, I was getting the 81 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: courage to contact my editor to say, look, I think 82 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: this is a non starter. This after a couple of 83 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: years of work, and I was going through some I 84 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: was getting ready actually to put away my research notes. 85 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: And I'm really meticulous about cataloging all of my research notes, 86 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: and and when I archived things, I know exactly. I 87 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: guess I'm a historian, so I do this. I have 88 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: everything well archived and well documented. So I was doing 89 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: inventories of my research notes and I came across this 90 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: envelope that had a French postmark on it, and uh, 91 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: I said, I wonder what this is? An open it 92 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: up and I was like, oh, this looks vagually familiar. 93 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: They were copies of manuscripts, photocopy well photographic reproductions of manuscripts, 94 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: and microfilms. It's like, oh, yeah, this was about, you know, 95 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: nine months ago, when I was in France. As it 96 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: often happens for research rs, you spend time in the 97 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: archives and the last few days are crazy because there's 98 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: so many other things that you need to look at 99 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: that you know you're not gonna have time, and you 100 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: end up spending a fortune in reproduction expenses, and working 101 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: particularly with French libraries, you will get those reproductions back 102 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: after six weeks, sometimes three months. And what always happens 103 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: is the envelopes arrived right when you're in the thick 104 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: of the semester and you don't have time to go 105 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: through it, and so I put it on a pile 106 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: of research notes, and I'm flipping through it's taking again 107 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: inventoring this, and I come across a letter that I 108 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: hadn't seen but I must have noticed in the in 109 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: the catalogs from a lawyer at court, specifically saying, Jean 110 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 1: Baptiste Deny, the transfusionist has every reason to fear for 111 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: his life. Person a and person be know what they've 112 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: been doing, know how dangerous they are, and they should 113 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: be ashamed of themselves, and trans fusion should be allowed 114 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: to continue. It was the first time I had different 115 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: names that had not been on my sust suspect list, 116 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: so what is this um? And essentially the lawyer was saying, 117 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: I shouldn't be writing this, but I have to write this. 118 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: So I had two names that sent me back to 119 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: France again. It's a rough life tran sitting back and 120 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: forth from France for research, But now that I have 121 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: the names, it was it was interesting because these two 122 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: suspects had written so much about their feelings on blood transfusion, 123 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: and I had looked at those before, but I hadn't 124 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: had reason to look at other letters, other treatises they 125 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: had written. And sure enough, once I got into their treatises, 126 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:50,119 Speaker 1: in one case, most definitely there's an admission of having 127 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: killed Denny's patient for the very reasons that I brought 128 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: forth is that they were they were horrified by the 129 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: idea that the human species could be in danger, and 130 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: in at least one of the two cases, it was 131 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: considered to be this this noble religious cause, is that 132 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: the person that had been called on by God to 133 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: avenge um the sanctity of of human life. And it 134 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: was interesting to me. I thought, how the world did 135 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: I missed this one? Is I didn't have their names. 136 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: Now that I had their names. But it also occurs 137 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: to me, is that UM vigilantes are rarely shy, right, 138 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: so they were sitting out in the open. It just 139 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: took a lot of a lot of research to be 140 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: able to get to the documents that allowed me to 141 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: say with with certainty who had been involved. The funny 142 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: thing is, you know, when you when you do a 143 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: project like this, your family members lived with it for 144 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: years too. And my husband had seen me be excited 145 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: about this project and then sort of fall into the 146 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: pit of despairs that, you know, I can't figure out 147 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: who did it, and it's over. There goes you know, 148 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: my my research. I've spent you know it all this time, 149 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,599 Speaker 1: and he could tell something was up um that I 150 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: was back into the flow of it. And I don't 151 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: think he was quite ready for this phone call though. 152 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 1: I I just knew. I looked at all of the 153 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: pieces of data that I had, I connected the dots 154 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: probably fifteen different times, and each time that the outcome 155 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: was the same, and it was more that I could 156 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:23,719 Speaker 1: than I could, you know, handle sitting there in my 157 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: in my study at home. And so I was like, 158 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: forget that. I'm just gonna go to the gym and 159 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 1: I'm gonna work out and take my phone with me. 160 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: I get in the car and I call my husband 161 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: and the minute he picks up the phone, I started 162 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: to cry. Isn't this stupid? I started to cry, and 163 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: he goes, are you all right? Are you? And I 164 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: was like I did it. I found him. I found him, 165 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: I found the murderers, because you know, you put your 166 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: heart in soul into this, and he goes, you did, 167 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,599 Speaker 1: and and I started telling goes, oh my god, this 168 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: is amazing. And then he goes, wait, wait, wait, wait, 169 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: you realize that you just solved like a three fifty 170 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: year old cold case, don't you, And and we started 171 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,599 Speaker 1: to laugh because there was both an excitement of you know, 172 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: come me to this point in research, and then figuring 173 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: out that I was as excited of having that by 174 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: the fact that I saw this cold case is that 175 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 1: you know, as the people on on any number of 176 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: the TV shows, you know, but it was these people 177 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 1: have been dead for over three d fifty years. But 178 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: that's what makes historical research so um so exciting and rewarding, 179 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: I think. So we can see that this was a long, 180 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 1: arduous process of thinking she knew who it was, rejecting 181 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: that idea, and then having to search for the actual killers, 182 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: and almost having to give up and almost giving up. 183 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: So we were really curious how long did she work 184 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: on this book and what was her research process for it? 185 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: And she told us a little bit about that here, 186 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 1: probably three or four years of research for sure. The 187 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: writing went pretty quickly, uh about fifteen months of writing, 188 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: and that was intense writing where it was all uh, 189 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: page and quota based, um, you know, basically doing what 190 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: all good writers say you need to do is put 191 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: your bottom in the chair and work every day. And 192 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: that's been for me. The key to being productive is 193 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: making sure that every day I produced something, even if 194 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: it's not very good. And I think the book wrote itself. 195 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: For for an academic writing these types of books, fifteen 196 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: months seems obscenely short, um, But for me, once I 197 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: had spent so much time on the research and actually 198 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: had spent so much time getting trying to get myself 199 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: in the minds of the people I was going to 200 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: be talking about. It was really a matter of transcribing 201 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: what I had researched and also the images that I 202 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: had collected that we're now living in my head and 203 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: putting it on the page. So it wrote itself pretty quickly. 204 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: As I mentioned earlier, this book really reads like a 205 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: work of fiction. There are so many details about people's 206 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: thoughts and memories, how they feel about certain things, So 207 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 1: we wanted to know how did Holly incorporate them and 208 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,599 Speaker 1: do so in a way that you're still able to 209 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: call this a work of nonfiction. And here's what she 210 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: had to say. You know, that's the trick. There's one 211 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: rule in nonfiction, I said, it has to be true 212 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: and um, and things that are put in quotes have 213 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: to be documented, So you can't put words in somebody's mouth. 214 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: And I think that for me, really trying to get 215 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: at what the streets of Paris sounded like and looked 216 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,599 Speaker 1: like and worse, smelled like. Um was important for me 217 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: to try to get it right. And how how I 218 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: did that is first, you know, I have the advantages. 219 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 1: I've been doing this as a career for a very 220 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: long time. Um. I've been working in seventeenth and eighteenth 221 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: century studies as an academic, you know, for nearly fifteen years. 222 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: So so much of this stuff relies on, you know, 223 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: the little scraps and bits and pieces that I've I've 224 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: been able to pull together over time in my research 225 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: and my teaching. But I realized that that wasn't going 226 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: to be enough. In fact, this is probably the hardest 227 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: I've written a couple of books. This is the hardest 228 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: book I've ever written. I've had I've had some people, um, 229 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: particularly academics, say oh, well, it reads like fiction, and 230 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: I said, you have no idea how hard it was 231 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: to write. Really, I don't, I can't. I can't see 232 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 1: that because it's it's you know that the there's a 233 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: way of writing academic prose, which is very different than 234 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 1: writing um pros for a wider readership. And what is 235 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 1: not visible to some is just a deep amount of 236 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: research I had to do. In fact, it laps anything 237 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: I would have done for an academic book because I 238 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: actually had to care what um the carriages look like. 239 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: In fact, I the opening scene in which the transfusience 240 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: is moving from the left bank to the right bank, 241 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 1: I had that written, and I was really the the 242 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: whole goal of the opening scene is to be able 243 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 1: to show readers what seventeenth century Paris would have looked like, 244 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: so that it's a transition into what will later become 245 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: the the main plot lines of the book. I realized 246 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: that I had written that assuming that there were windows 247 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: in the carriage, and uh, it's very different than having 248 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: windows and if there are curtains, and so I had 249 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: to step back, as like, how do I know that 250 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: there are windows in the carriage and there there goes 251 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: another four days of research making sure that you know 252 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: when windows came in and when curtains were still there. 253 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: Other details, um were for example, the street lighting in 254 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: sixteen sixty seven, the first police chief of Paris, Nicola 255 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: de la rainy Um is called on by Louis the 256 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: fourteenth to basically root out organized crime and uh Paris 257 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: was the crime capital of Europe in sixteen sixty seven. 258 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: The first thing that Nicola la rain does, and that's 259 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: why we call Paris the city of light. Um, he 260 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: lights the streets of Paris, and that will change things 261 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: for me about how I'm able to describe people in Paris. Right, Um, 262 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: the first blood human set, the transfusion on Mroix was 263 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: done in the evening. Well, it's gonna matter what time 264 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: in the evening it is. It's also gonna matter is 265 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: it before the police chief begins lighting the streets or after? Right? 266 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: And how you imagine that space will change by the 267 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: smallest of details. So for all of these different moments 268 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: of visceral detailing, I can't even begin to tell you 269 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: the amount of work that goes into really making sure 270 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: you've got the details right. So for me the little 271 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: details of the book, the sights and the sounds, and 272 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: I mean even sometimes the smells made it really tactile. 273 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: It made it kind of come alive, and it helped 274 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: me in that it juxtaposed the horrors of the experiment. 275 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: Seeing these awful things happening to animals, dogs and sheep 276 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: and people sometimes helped me juxtapose that with the daily 277 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: horrors that we're taking place on the streets of Paris. 278 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,359 Speaker 1: But I wanted to just know how did Holly overlay 279 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: a long gone medieval Paris with the one of today. 280 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: You know, she does a lot of comparing to where 281 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: a building is now. If you are in Paris and 282 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: you're standing at this well known landmark, look across the river, 283 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: and here is a building where something happened in blood work. 284 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: I wanted to know how she reconstructed the city and 285 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: why did she think it was important to do so. 286 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: And this is what she said. I love to imagine 287 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: all of the lives and daily dramas that took place 288 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: both in the streets in which I'm standing and then 289 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: also in the in the buildings where where I work 290 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: and and also stay. And um, you know, we have 291 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: to be careful not to assume him that the Paris 292 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: of today looked exactly even just the way the streets 293 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: were laid out, um looked like it did. Then you 294 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: mentioned that which was the main prison of Paris, and 295 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: also to the police headquarters that's gone. In fact, I 296 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: I can't even tell you how sad I am that 297 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: it was destroyed in the nineteenth century, because I would 298 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: really love to be able to walk in that space 299 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: and take a look at it. And one of the 300 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: ways that you can you can sort of reconstructed is 301 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: one is is seeing traces when you're in Paris. I 302 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: guess it's one of the most interesting historical cities. But 303 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: overlaying modern Paris with old seventeenth century maps, and what 304 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: was really exciting to me the moment state, which is 305 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: in the Marree, which is in the nicest at the 306 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: in the seventeenth century and still is today one of 307 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: the nicest areas of Paris, with these huge residential um 308 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,959 Speaker 1: state estates. I had spent a lot of time um 309 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: looking at old maps because I needed to get a 310 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: sense of what those spaces would have looked like, how 311 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: Dennis would have arrived to the Momo State, how where 312 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: he would have where the stairs would have been would 313 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: have been a grand staircase or a side staircase. And 314 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: I had you know, some period pictures from the early 315 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, I'm sorry, early twentieth century that I could 316 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: sort of see how it was a hundred years ago. 317 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 1: I had old maps, also had um accounts of people 318 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: who had had dinner at Momo's home, and for me, 319 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: it was so exciting. It almost finished the book. So 320 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: the draft was done, and I was going back to 321 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 1: Paris to to do to trick out some of other 322 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: to sort of snuff out some missing links that I 323 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: need to do. And I literally some of these estates. 324 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:53,479 Speaker 1: You know, you're walking through Paris and the doors are 325 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: huge and you can't get in right there, locked or 326 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: they have some sort of you know, digital code thing. 327 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: And this was still a private home, the momoal State. 328 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: I stood for an hour in front of the Memo State, 329 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: hoping that somebody would open the door and let me in, 330 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: And finally I snuck in and I'm standing in the 331 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: large they call it the cool door, the court of Honor, 332 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: which is where where horses and carriages would enter the 333 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: people would descend, and then they would go through a 334 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: porte cochere into the private courtyard, and I'm standing in 335 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: the in the courtyard of honor, and I started my 336 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: eye You're gonna think, I'll I do is cry when 337 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: I write? But my eyes started to water. And the 338 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: superintendent of the building came out and said, Madame, can 339 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: I help you? And I said, oh, yes, and I 340 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: just started to gush. Do you know you've been in 341 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: sixteen sixty seven? They were the first human blood transfusions, 342 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: and they happened up there, and then the madman MOURROI 343 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: they would have transferred him up to the servants quarters, 344 00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: which would likely would have been up there, and he 345 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: at me. Very strangely. We ended up spending just this 346 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: lovely afternoon. UM. The superintendent gave me access into different 347 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: parts of the building that I would normally not have 348 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: been able to see. And it was delicious for me 349 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: because through those early documents that I've been using, I 350 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: was pretty dead on UM. It was delicious and surprising 351 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: and gratifying to know that you know how you construct 352 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: things narratively and also imaginatively. Actually, UM was on target. 353 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: You know, if I was cut catabolted back into the 354 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: seventeenth century. Would it look exactly the way that I 355 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: described it? Probably not, But you know, we don't even 356 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: know what We can't even reconstruct what happened to us 357 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: all yesterday, right, But I think I got pretty close. 358 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: So Holly stories about sneaking into places to find details 359 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: definitely charmed and amused us a great deal. But we 360 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: have to take a kind of serious turn with the 361 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 1: questions at this point to get a little bit more 362 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: information about the continue history of blood transfusions. I guess 363 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: after Danny's experiments and blood transfusions were shut down in 364 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: the sixteen hundreds, they didn't start back up again until 365 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds. So we wanted to know, how did 366 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: we get to where we are now with blood transfusions? 367 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: How did people's attitudes change enough to make this possible? 368 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: And here's what she had to say. Now, that's a 369 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: really hard question, because um, I'm I'm really not sure. 370 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: Something happened in the nineteenth century and that's when blood 371 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: transfusions picked back up. In eighteen eighteen, James Blendell, a 372 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: in English obstetrician, notices that his patients are hemorrhaging often 373 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: and sometimes to death, and it's not clear whether he 374 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: was aware of these really blood transfusions or not. It's 375 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,719 Speaker 1: worth noting, of course, that after the Jannik's blood transfusion 376 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: was banned in France and basically just fell off the 377 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: scientific radar for at least a hundred and fifty years, 378 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: and Blendell takes it back up. It's not clear that 379 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: he's aware of these or the history of the early 380 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: blood transfusions, but he speculates that, you know, maybe we 381 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: could put blood into these hemorrhaging mothers, And like Denny, 382 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: he actually begins with animal trials. In fact, in this case, 383 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: he injects an animal with human blood and for whatever reason, 384 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: the animal dies immediately, and that causes Blendella think maybe 385 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: animal to human transfusions may not be the way to go. 386 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: Maybe human to human transfusion should should be what I 387 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: need to be doing. He doesn't perform a lot of 388 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: them um and had a success rate of less than 389 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,719 Speaker 1: so there were a lot of deaths involved. But Blendell's 390 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: work actually sets off a long line, another long line 391 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: of questioning about you know, is this something we can do? 392 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: And so in the decades that follow, people are interested in, Okay, 393 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: why is blood coagulating. Is there a way we can 394 00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: get it to stop coagulating because that seems to be 395 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: the problem. Um. Then in nineteen o one, Carl Lnsteiner 396 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: does a very simple, exquisitely simple experiment when in which 397 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: he takes blood samples from different colleagues in his lab 398 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: and puts the blood together and starts to see that 399 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: blood coagulates with some pairings and not others, and then 400 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: creates um blood groups, blood types. Right, he didn't need 401 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: to have an advanced degree in immunology to do this, 402 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: is he just comes up on this experiment. Why in 403 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century we can't be sure. I truly cannot 404 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: be sure. I think in the seventeenth century it's easy 405 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: to say that William Harvey's discovery of blood circulation got 406 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: everybody thinking about blood. But the nineteenth century itself is 407 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: the moment where big things happen anesthesia, an asepsis, germ theory, 408 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: and I do have to imagine that blood transfusion, that 409 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: the renaissance of thinking about blood transfusion nineteenth century is 410 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: part of that larger renaissance of scientific thinking overall. So 411 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: blood transfusion, clearly it's so important today It's just an 412 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: everyday part of how hospitals run. You'll see blood drives 413 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: at school, you'll see them down in the lobby where 414 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 1: we work. It really makes the book feel almost relevant 415 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: that you hear this story of blood transfusion being so 416 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: controversial and now it is so every day, so common. 417 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: So we asked Holly if she got that sense while 418 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: she was writing it, if there was something else in 419 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: medicine and science that is comparable to blood transfusions in 420 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: the seventeenth century. It was there something that we could 421 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: be missing today even and this is what she had 422 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: to say about that. I mentioned this um in the 423 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: epilogue of the book. Is I was working in the 424 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: history of blood transfusion and trying to piece together what 425 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: it all meant when in two thousand and six I 426 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 1: knew I had to write this book. George Bush, in 427 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: a State of the Union address, surprised actually the scientific 428 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: community by calling for and I'm quoting legislation to prohibit 429 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: the most egregious abuses of medical research, including creating human 430 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: animal hybrids. And I was deep enough into my research 431 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: to know that that was precisely a fear that was 432 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: surrounding blood transfusion. Of course, Bush was talking more about 433 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: animal human embryonic stem cell research interspecies research, right, And 434 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: he was basing that call for um legislative restrictions on 435 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: a two thousand four report from the President's Council on 436 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: Bioethics that called for banning animal human embryonic stem cell 437 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: research to prevent And again I'm quoting some adventurous or 438 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: renegade researchers and quote from doing untold damage to the 439 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 1: human species. And I thought, you know that that was 440 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: precisely what Jean Baptistiny was cens was renegade, and that 441 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: was precisely the concern is that blood transfusion would do 442 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: extraordinary damage to what how we understood what it meant 443 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: to be human, and that that has always made me think, 444 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: you know, we do we have to be careful not 445 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: to give science this forward looking narrative of of triumph, right, 446 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: because science is all about fits and starts, successes and failures. 447 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: But in the same case, UM, I think that the 448 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: history of blood transfusion really begs us to think about, 449 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: you know, what that relationship between science and society is 450 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: and how fraught it really is. And as we're looking 451 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: at our own scientific revolution. I believe fully that we're 452 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: in in a moment of deep scientific revolution right now. 453 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: What how will history be judging us? What are some 454 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: of the things that we were scared to move forward 455 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: with that UM would have ended up being clear successes 456 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: and actually have benefit at humanity. I can't imagine the 457 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: number of lives that, of course would have been lost 458 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 1: as they could have continued blood transfusion, But I also 459 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: can't imagine all the lives that would have been saved 460 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: if we've been able to perfect blood transfusion much earlier 461 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: than we did blood transfusion itself. The first blood banks 462 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: weren't established in until nineteen nineteen thirties UM, largely in 463 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: response to the discovery nineteen fourteen of sodium citrate, which 464 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: prevents blood clotting. So blood transfusion is actually very very 465 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,239 Speaker 1: recent science, and I have to wonder what's on our 466 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: own scientific horizon that may seem very scary, but that 467 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: actually could have UM an unbelievably strong impact historically on 468 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: on on what it is we do and how we 469 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: live our lives. Well, we really loved having the opportunity 470 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: to do this interview because we get so jazzed about 471 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: covering local history. It really makes for some of the 472 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: best stories that we ever get to tell. And we 473 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: also love the history of France, of course, and this 474 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: book is the perfect combo of those things. Tucker in 475 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: her career combines French and history just as she does 476 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 1: in this book, and we're super jealous of that. Afterwards, 477 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: that's pretty much all we could talk about. We were like, 478 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,479 Speaker 1: she has the best job. She gets to get a parist, 479 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,479 Speaker 1: you know, so of course we had to ask how 480 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: did that happen? And here's what she told us. You 481 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: know the best thing about being a college professor is 482 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: that you can have many careers in one um, and 483 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: over a course of a lifetime you can explore all 484 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: different types of topics if you're lucky and if you 485 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: land at a university that really supports that. So in 486 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: my first iteration of my career, I worked in French 487 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: history and culture, and specifically in the time period that 488 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: um that I talked about in this book. But it 489 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: was right at when I was doing my graduate work. 490 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: It was right as interdisciplinary studies were just coming onto 491 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: the landscape, so PhDs tended to be very traditional and 492 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: very uh subject focused. But I was also at the 493 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: University of Wisconsin UM that's where I did my PhD, 494 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: which has one of the best history of medicine and 495 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: science programs in the United States. And UH I ended 496 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: up taking a good amount of course is just to 497 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: take courses in the history of medicine the history of science. 498 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: And once I landed in my family position, I really 499 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: wanted to try to find ways to to bridge what 500 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: I was doing in French studies with my interests in 501 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: history of medicine and science. And so my first book 502 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with my doctoral dissertation. It was 503 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: on the history of embryology and childbirth and a variety 504 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: of cultural texts in the seventeenth century. And so Blood 505 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: Work just seemed like the logical extension, right as I 506 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: get to talk about early France, get to talk about 507 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: the culture and history of early hands, and also it's science. 508 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: So it's for me, it's been a fantastic journey each 509 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: each time with each book, I I get to explore 510 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: a new set of questions. And it also UM being 511 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: a college professor is great for me because I'm a 512 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: learning curb junkie. The steeper, the better, and the the 513 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: more learning curves there are the better. So each book 514 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: I I do, I always trying to find a topic 515 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: I know very little about. So that's how you can 516 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: get That's how you can be a French professor and 517 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: have an appointment in a center for medicine, health and society. 518 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: So I mean, you can see what we mean by 519 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: the I'm sure we're not the only ones who envy 520 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: Holly Tucker's career. She gets to pair historical research with 521 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: writing and teaching and kind of explore all the ideas 522 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: that excite her. So that's awesome. Interesting note though, I 523 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: read in a different interview that she has a dog 524 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: and that she wrote the book a lot of the 525 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: book while her pet dog was with her. And for 526 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: for anybody who is about to to go out and 527 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: read this book, dogs have a hard time of it, 528 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: don't they. They do that Some of the experiments performed 529 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: on animals will kind of make you cringe if you're 530 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: an animal lover. But in experiments performed on people too, 531 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: that's very true. It is definitely a different time, so 532 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: just keep that in mind. But uh, speaking of the 533 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: time it takes place, I do think that you guys 534 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: are going to have a lot to say about this 535 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: book a lot of feedback, especially if you've listened to 536 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: all those episodes we did towards the beginning of the 537 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: year on the Bourbon Family, because after all, this book 538 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: does take place during the reign of Louis the fourteenth, 539 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: the son King, and really has a lot to do 540 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: with his consolidation of power, building for PSI and and 541 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: all of that. So I think you guys are going 542 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: to have some feedback for sure on not just the 543 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: medical aspect, but the political aspect, the rivalry, the class 544 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: and the people involved, and we would love to hear 545 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: from you and get kind of a book discussion going. 546 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: There's even a chapter in there called the Affair of 547 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: the Poisons there is which should sound pretty familiar to 548 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: you guys if you've been listening, So definitely look for 549 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: us on Facebook. You can find us on Twitter at 550 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: mist in History, and we can start talking about Holly 551 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: Tucker's blood work, a tale of medicine and murder in 552 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: the Scientific Revolution. And of course, if you guys have 553 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: any suggestions, I know that we were so inspired by 554 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: this and we'll probably come up with tons of ideas 555 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: for future podcasts, And if you have any suggestions for those, 556 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: please send them our way as well. In the meantime, 557 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: if you want to look up a little bit more 558 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: about blood and blood circulation and other related topics, you 559 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: can find all kinds of information on our website about 560 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,479 Speaker 1: that just by visiting our homepage at www dot how 561 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Be sure to check out our 562 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: new video pod cast, Stuff from the Future. Join how 563 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: staff works staff as we explore the most promising and 564 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: perplexing possibilities of tomorrow. The houste Works iPhone app has 565 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: a rise. Download it today on iTunes.