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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at

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Speaker 1: noon Eastern on Appocarplay and then Roudoto with the Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or watch us live on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Tuesday edition of Balance of Power. Here

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Speaker 2: we are again on the radio, on the satellite, and

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Speaker 2: on YouTube, and we do have breaking news. If you've

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Speaker 2: been with us just a couple of hours ago, Hunter Biden.

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Speaker 2: Has it even been that long, not even an hour ago?

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Speaker 2: Hunter Biden convicted on gun charges by a jury in Delaware.

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Speaker 3: We saw it coming.

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Speaker 2: It's only three counts, and we were told, with overwhelming evidence,

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Speaker 2: this should not be a long deliberation.

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Speaker 3: And it wasn't.

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Speaker 2: Three up and three down. And as you wonder, we

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Speaker 2: keeps asking, what's Joe Biden going to do? What'll he say?

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Speaker 2: How does the White House handle this? We got the statement,

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Speaker 2: this is officially from the President of the United States.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to read the whole thing for you. Quote.

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Speaker 2: As I said last week, I am the president, but

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Speaker 2: I am also a dad. Jill and I love our

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Speaker 2: son and we are so proud of the man he

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Speaker 2: is today. So many families who have had loved one's

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Speaker 2: battle addiction understand the feeling of pride seeing someone you

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Speaker 2: love come out the other side and be so strong

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Speaker 2: and resilient in recovery. Joe Biden goes on to write,

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Speaker 2: as I also said last week, I will accept the

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Speaker 2: outcome of this case and will continue to respect the

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Speaker 2: judicial process as Hunter considers an appeal. Jill and I

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Speaker 2: will always be there for Hunter and the rest of

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Speaker 2: our family with love and support. Nothing will ever change that, unquote.

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Speaker 2: So that's how he's going to handle it. He will

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Speaker 2: be speaking later today. Questions about whether he might indulge

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Speaker 2: the press with something in person, we'll find out about that.

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Speaker 3: But this is the first statement, the first reaction from

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Speaker 3: the White House.

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Speaker 2: June Grosso has been all over this from the beginning,

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Speaker 2: and she's with us now from New York. Of course,

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Speaker 2: the host of Bloomberg Law. We knew it would be

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Speaker 2: pretty quick here, June, three counts guilty. Do we have

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Speaker 2: a sentencing date? What actually happens next? Procedurally?

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Speaker 4: The judge didn't set a sensing date yet, but she

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Speaker 4: said it's within usually about one hundred and twenty days,

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Speaker 4: So that puts it in October, I think, and then we'll,

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Speaker 4: you know, we'll find out. I mean, it's not though

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Speaker 4: he is facing you know, and we say facing like

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Speaker 4: the max he could get is twenty five years. There

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Speaker 4: is also a chance that he could get probation because

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Speaker 4: and we have to go through the sentencing guidelines to

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Speaker 4: look at you know, this is like a mathematical calculation

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Speaker 4: that federal prosecutors who do these kinds of cases and

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Speaker 4: defense attorneys know how to do. But there is a

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Speaker 4: chance that he could just get probation according to what

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Speaker 4: I'm seeing, because the gun wasn't used in any kind

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Speaker 4: of a crime and he only had it for eleven days.

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Speaker 4: But we'll learn more about that as we go through

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Speaker 4: the guidelines.

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Speaker 2: Well understood, Yeah, it's just to your point. Two of

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Speaker 2: the gun counts carry a prison term as long as

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Speaker 2: ten years, another punishable by as many as five brings

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Speaker 2: us to a potential twenty five year term. How about

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Speaker 2: fines though, would they not be more likely?

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Speaker 5: Well?

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Speaker 4: I think you know, fines would be in order. I

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Speaker 4: think is it two hundred and fifty thousand for the

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Speaker 4: two counts.

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Speaker 6: Each of the two counts.

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Speaker 3: You're the expert I have.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I'm not actually expert on the on the

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Speaker 4: sentence in guidelines unless I study them. So I think

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Speaker 4: that the fines are pretty high, and yeah, she might

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Speaker 4: she might do a fine as well. But what's important

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Speaker 4: here is that, you know, despite what Donald Trump has

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Speaker 4: been saying about the justice system, here you have a

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Speaker 4: case where the Biden Justice Department prosecuted the president's son

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Speaker 4: and there is a guilty verdict and you're going to

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Speaker 4: have a Trump appointed judge give the sentence. So it's

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Speaker 4: kind of hard to argue, although I'm sure they will,

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Speaker 4: it's kind of hard to argue that the system is

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Speaker 4: you know, biased, right.

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Speaker 2: And this is federal court as opposed to the New

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Speaker 2: York court that Donald Trump was in. Are we going

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Speaker 2: to hear from the Department of Justice? Is there a

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Speaker 2: news conference? Are they treating it that way? June because

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Speaker 2: of the level of scrutiny that this case is getting.

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Speaker 4: You know, that's an interesting question because it is the

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Speaker 4: Special Council here, and you know that special councils have

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Speaker 4: been subject to a lot of criticism. This special council

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Speaker 4: was appointed at the sort of the last minute because

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Speaker 4: he requested. And there's this mystery about why he needed

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Speaker 4: to be a special council. Was it just so he

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Speaker 4: could bring because he's it's the same counsel who was

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Speaker 4: investigating Hunter Biden in Delaware, so he could bring cases

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Speaker 4: in Delaware, and he could bring the case in California,

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Speaker 4: the tax case. So it'll be interesting to see. I

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Speaker 4: would think not, because you know, federal prosecutors are different

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Speaker 4: from state prosecutors who go out there a lot of

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Speaker 4: them elected, and they go out and they talk after

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Speaker 4: the verdict and you know, give themselves kudos, et cetera.

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Speaker 4: So federal prosecutors keep it close to the vest. And

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Speaker 4: since there's another case pending, I would think that he

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Speaker 4: might not do a press conference. I mean, look at

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Speaker 4: how many press conferences Jack Smith has given and how

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Speaker 4: you know, how illuminating they've been, you know, five minutes

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Speaker 4: of a statement. So I don't think so, but it's

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Speaker 4: always possible, and.

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Speaker 3: It's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: You've been good at crystallizing this case because, as we write,

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Speaker 2: there's been some very sensational and emotional testimony family members

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Speaker 2: and ex lovers. You can read about it on the

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Speaker 2: terminal talking about Hunter's drug fueled lifestyle when he was

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Speaker 2: in the throes of addiction to crack cocaine. But what

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Speaker 2: we're talking about here, in a deeply personal matter for

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Speaker 2: the Biden family, is whether he checked a box June.

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Speaker 3: As you've stated, I.

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Speaker 4: Know it's and the prosecution the closing argument said we

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Speaker 4: had to do this. But did they really have to

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Speaker 4: do it the way they did it. I mean, they

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Speaker 4: dragged him through the mud in you know ways that

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Speaker 4: you mentioned, and also you know the kind of pictures

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Speaker 4: that they show the laptop, and they had the evidence,

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Speaker 4: so I don't think they had to really go to

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Speaker 4: that length to do it, but maybe they just wanted

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Speaker 4: to make sure the jury saw him for who he was.

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Speaker 4: What's interesting is I think that the the defense kind

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Speaker 4: of blew up its case because on during their case,

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Speaker 4: they had Naomi Biden and she was supposed to testify,

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Speaker 4: which she did that her father she saw him around

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Speaker 4: that time and he seemed really good, he seemed healthy.

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Speaker 4: But on cross examination, the prosecution brought out these text

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Speaker 4: messages from the time when around the time when the

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Speaker 4: gun was being purchased that showed that he was, you know,

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Speaker 4: he couldn't be found. She was like where are you

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Speaker 4: am I going to see you? And then all of

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Speaker 4: a sudden he pops up and says, you know, I

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Speaker 4: need the car and it was two am. So that

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Speaker 4: and then you saw what happened was all of a sudden,

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Speaker 4: the defense said, no more witnesses today when his uncle

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Speaker 4: was supposed to testify, and there was apparently, you know,

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Speaker 4: some yelling, according to one report from the room, and

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Speaker 4: then the defense rested without calling Hunter Biden. So the

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Speaker 4: defense had a tough road. I think the only thing

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Speaker 4: they were hoping for was jury nullification, that some of

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Speaker 4: the jurors would say, we have people in our family

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Speaker 4: who are addicted, and there are several jurors who do

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Speaker 4: who've been through the whole process, and we don't think

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Speaker 4: that he should be, you know, prosecuted or sentenced for

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Speaker 4: filling that box out. But that obviously didn't happen at all.

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Speaker 4: The jurors were you know, didn't I guess, didn't let

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Speaker 4: their family experiences get in the way of their decision.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, June Grosso, we thank you, as always

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Speaker 2: the host of Bloomberg Law, thanks for being with us

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Speaker 2: here in the clutch as we had the voice of

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Speaker 2: Nick Ackerman I'm glad to say he's with us, the

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Speaker 2: former assistant US Attorney, former assistant special Watergate prosecutor, mister Ackerman.

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Speaker 2: Great to see you here, Thanks for joining. Now that

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Speaker 2: we have a verdict, has this whole argument about the

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Speaker 2: weaponization of the Justice Department been put to bed?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 8: I think so.

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Speaker 7: I mean, it's pretty obvious if the Department of Justice

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Speaker 7: is going out after the president's son that you can't

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Speaker 7: very well say the Department of Justice is weaponized, not

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Speaker 7: to mention the fact that you also have the prosecution

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Speaker 7: of Senator Menendez that's going on in the Southern District

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Speaker 7: of New York, a Democratic senator from New Jersey. So

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Speaker 7: I think it's pretty obvious that the Department of Justice

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Speaker 7: is an equal opportunity prosecutor. Whether you're a Democrat, an Independent,

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Speaker 7: or anything else, if you commit a crime, you're going

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Speaker 7: to pay for it.

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Speaker 3: What's your take on this case.

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Speaker 2: We spent so much time talking about Donald Trump's legal journey.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure you've spoken to the veracity of this

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Speaker 2: case or what many people say in the legal community,

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Speaker 2: is the unusual nature of this case for someone to

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Speaker 2: be brought down on felony charges like this in the

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Speaker 2: case that involves addiction.

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Speaker 3: How do you see it in a cap of it.

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Speaker 7: Oh, it's pretty unusual and so unusual. I don't know

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Speaker 7: why they even bothered to go to trial in a sense,

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Speaker 7: because either they should have made a or he should

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Speaker 7: have just eaten the indictment and pled to all three

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Speaker 7: counts before the trial started. They had to have known

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Speaker 7: right from the get go that there were these text

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Speaker 7: messages during the period of time when he signed that

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Speaker 7: form and filled in those boxes and also possessed the gun,

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Speaker 7: even though it was for a short period of time.

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Speaker 7: They knew that there was evidence that Hunter Biden was

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Speaker 7: still addicted and was still taking crack cocaine. So I

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Speaker 7: don't understand for a second why they even bothered to

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Speaker 7: go to trial on this thing. Because if he had

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Speaker 7: just pled guilty and decided right from the beginning he

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Speaker 7: was going to eat the indictment all three counts, he

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Speaker 7: would have at least under the federal sentence in guidelines

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Speaker 7: gotten two points for basically admitting his guilt, which is

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Speaker 7: a big item. And so I think all of this

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Speaker 7: augurs for the other case in California, I just think

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Speaker 7: he has to plead guilty to that. Well, he's got

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Speaker 7: to make a deal or guilty. The amount of time

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Speaker 7: he's going to get is not going to be significant,

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Speaker 7: if at all, And there's just no point in going

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Speaker 7: through with this.

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Speaker 2: So Nick Ackerman says, plead guilty in the tax evasion.

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Speaker 2: That's a million dollars in taxes he allegedly did not pay. Nick,

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Speaker 2: what kind of a sentence would he be in for

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Speaker 2: if he played along like that?

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Speaker 7: Well, again, a million dollars, yes, but he's already paid

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Speaker 7: back the taxes. He's paid back. I believe all the penalties,

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Speaker 7: he's already made his amends with the irs. Normally, under

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Speaker 7: circumstances like that, where somebody's addicted, there is a good

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Speaker 7: shot that the person wouldn't even be prosecuted in the

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Speaker 7: first instance. So to me, as a criminal defense lawyer,

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Speaker 7: as well as having been a prosecutor, I think you

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Speaker 7: just have to go in, take your lumps and argue

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Speaker 7: that this is a case for probation. I mean, I

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Speaker 7: think that is the approach he should be taken at

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Speaker 7: this point, and should have taken before.

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Speaker 3: We saw a statement.

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Speaker 2: Well, and of course there was a plea deal at

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Speaker 2: one point in this case, and I want to ask

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Speaker 2: you about the statement from the President of the United States.

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Speaker 2: He's already said he will not pardon Hunter Biden. He says,

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Speaker 2: I will accept the outcome of this case and will

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Speaker 2: continue to respect the judicial process. As Hunter considers an appeal.

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Speaker 2: Will there be an appeal? What's their case going to be?

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Speaker 7: I think there is going to be an appeal based

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Speaker 7: on the Second Amendment. It's hard to believe that that's

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Speaker 7: going to go very far or it's going to be successful.

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Speaker 7: But I suppose he's got nothing to lose by doing that.

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Speaker 7: Even after he's sentenced, an appeal will go before the

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Speaker 7: Circuit Court and then possibly the Supreme Court. I just

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Speaker 7: find it hard to believe that a court, the appellate court,

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Speaker 7: is going to say that this statute is some way

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Speaker 7: violative of the Second Amendment.

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Speaker 3: Fascinating.

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Speaker 2: We're spending time with Nick Ackerman, as he just said,

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Speaker 2: a criminal defense attorney, but also noted former Watergate prosecutor.

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Speaker 2: As we consider the last twenty four hours in which

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump sat down for his first interview with a

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Speaker 2: probation officer. That's not getting any conversation today, Nick, because

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Speaker 2: this Hunter Biden news just broke but I wonder your

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Speaker 2: thought on the way this was handled. He was allowed

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Speaker 2: to do this virtually, and he was allowed to have

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Speaker 2: his lawyer in the room, which we understand is not

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Speaker 2: typical for most defendants in a criminal case like this.

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Speaker 2: Should he have been afforded those exceptions?

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Speaker 7: Well, First of all, I think the interview by Zoom

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Speaker 7: is not necessarily a big exception since the pandemic. I

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Speaker 7: know that there are others who have also had that

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Speaker 7: ability to be able to be interviewed by probation over

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Speaker 7: Zoom see that being a big deal. The fact that

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Speaker 7: his lawyer was there. Normally in the federal system, the

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Speaker 7: lawyer is present for those kinds of conversations. So I

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Speaker 7: don't you know, I know the judge allowed this exception

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Speaker 7: based on the request by the attorneys. I don't see

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Speaker 7: this being a big deal. And look, he's being treated

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Speaker 7: just like anybody else. He's being interviewed by probation. The

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Speaker 7: big issue I suppose with probation is going to be

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Speaker 7: whether he respect essentially evinces any kind of remorse for

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Speaker 7: what he did, which it's hard to believe he would

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Speaker 7: based on the statements he's been making since the conviction.

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Speaker 7: So I don't see how this interview is going to

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Speaker 7: help him anyway. If anything, I think it's going to

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Speaker 7: be a big negative that's going to be given to

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Speaker 7: the judge for sentencing purposes.

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Speaker 2: How about that, say, No, I ask you this because

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Speaker 2: there was a statement from a group of public defender

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Speaker 2: groups including the Legal Aid Society, the Bronx Defender and

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Speaker 2: said these exceptions made for Trump are not typically afforded

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Speaker 2: to low income defendants. I think the idea here is

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Speaker 2: if I had a public defender, they would not be

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Speaker 2: allowed to join me in that room. Whether that moves

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Speaker 2: the needle for you at all, Nick, worry you on

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Speaker 2: potential sentencing because to your point, that's where this interview

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Speaker 2: is heading.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, well obviously, I mean I saw that statement, and like,

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Speaker 7: I don't think materially it makes a difference that Trump

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Speaker 7: did it by zoom or that he has lawyer present.

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Speaker 7: I think the real question comes down to just what

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Speaker 7: you just asked. What is the sentence going to be?

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Speaker 7: And I would be surprised if he does not get

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Speaker 7: some jail time, mainly because Michael Cohen, the witnesses who

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Speaker 7: testified against him, served three years as a result of

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Speaker 7: this crime. In part also Alan Weiselberg, who was one

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Speaker 7: of the architects of setting up this false document scheme

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Speaker 7: with Trump's approval, has already set is going to be

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Speaker 7: at the end of the day have served six months

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Speaker 7: at Rikers Island for other offenses. So I think it's

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Speaker 7: going to be hard for the judge to justify why

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Speaker 7: those two people serve time and Donald Trump is not.

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Speaker 7: So I think that's his big problem here is that

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Speaker 7: there are others that were as culpable, more and less

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Speaker 7: culpable than him that we're involved in this, that have

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Speaker 7: spent some time in jail.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: July eleventh, right, I don't know if you're busy, Nick,

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Speaker 2: but we're going to be calling you. Great to see

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Speaker 2: you again, Nick Ackerman with us on Bloomberg, I'm Joe,

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Speaker 2: Matthew and Washington the fastest show in politics. On this day,

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Speaker 2: Hunter Biden becomes the first son of a president of

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Speaker 2: the United States to be convicted on criminal charges. We'll

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Speaker 2: have much more ahead on the fastest show in politics.

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Speaker 3: This is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Ken

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Speaker 1: just live weekdays at noon Eastern on applecarp Ronoto with

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Speaker 1: Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say

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Speaker 2: Thirty building shook a little bit when the Hunter headlines

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Speaker 2: broke redhead on the terminal. Hunter Biden convicted gun charges

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Speaker 2: by a jury in Delaware. No one surprised. We were

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Speaker 2: told yesterday overwhelming evidence, only three charges. The liberations should

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Speaker 2: not take long.

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Speaker 3: And here we are.

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Speaker 2: As we tried to pick through this from a legal

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Speaker 2: perspective and explore the potential political ramifications. As I already

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Speaker 2: told you, we've heard from Joe Biden today saying he

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Speaker 2: will stand by his son. This is a personal matter

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Speaker 2: obviously for the Bidens. The first lady was in the

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Speaker 2: courtroom for the bulk of this roughly week long trial.

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Speaker 2: But I have an important conversation to bring you, and

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Speaker 2: it's a familiar voice if you watch or listen to

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Speaker 2: this program. Denver Riggleman, the former Republican congressman, former Air

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Speaker 2: Force intel diligence officer, former member of the House Freedom Caucus,

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Speaker 2: is also a data analyst and has a firm that

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Speaker 2: specializes in data forensics, and in fact went to work

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Speaker 2: with as a consultant with Hunter Biden's legal team to

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Speaker 2: take a look inside the laptop and follow any number

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Speaker 2: of allegations that had been brought by Republicans. And Denver's

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Speaker 2: with us right now. It's good to have you back, sir.

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Speaker 2: I wonder your thoughts. Having spent the time that you

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Speaker 2: did also as a technical consultant for the January sixth committee,

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Speaker 2: you actually looked inside this laptop. You've been around the

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Speaker 2: horn a number of times on this, and as you've

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Speaker 2: told us, you have a personal relationship a friendship, if

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Speaker 2: I can call it that, with Hunter Biden. Did you

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Speaker 2: ever think that the conviction, if there was going to

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Speaker 2: be one, would come from a check box here in

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Speaker 2: this case, on a gun form.

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Speaker 8: Yeah. I mean I think you know, when you look

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Speaker 8: at it first of all, you know, really it's really

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Speaker 8: hard to get your arms right. I had a brother

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Speaker 8: convicted of a minor drug offense that ended up being

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Speaker 8: actually a felony, and you're thinking, well, it's just marijuana,

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Speaker 8: but he had broken the law. And I remember the

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Speaker 8: sadness in our family when he went to jail. And

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Speaker 8: I can't imagine the sadness, you know, the Hunter Biden's

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Speaker 8: family has right now. But when you look at the

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Speaker 8: evidence and what had happened, regardless of the years that

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Speaker 8: had passed, and the effort that Hunter has put into

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Speaker 8: his own life, which is extraordinary, I think when you

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Speaker 8: look at the black and white language of the law,

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Speaker 8: I'm not surprised at the guilty verdict, Joe. It's just

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Speaker 8: not really surprising at all. And when you talk about

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Speaker 8: looking in the laptop, I know, it's an incredible question.

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Speaker 8: Is I actually looked at the data supposedly from the

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Speaker 8: laptop and there's multiple laptops, which a lot of people

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Speaker 8: don't know, and that's another question. That another thing, But

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Speaker 8: there's multiple lawsuits out there about that specific data that's

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Speaker 8: supposedly from the laptop. That that's why I don't get

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Speaker 8: into it too much, even with idiots on Twitter and X.

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Speaker 8: You know, but I think that you know, I think

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Speaker 8: that you know, like, well, prove the negative. It's ridiculous.

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Speaker 8: But looking at you know, there's really no impeachment thing

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Speaker 8: going to happen. We know there's no huge you know,

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Speaker 8: there's financial crime you know, uh, stuff that's coming out

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Speaker 8: of the Comer Committee or things like that. That's sort

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Speaker 8: of gone. But this right here is a specific charge,

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Speaker 8: and I think Joe that I think it's no surprise,

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Speaker 8: you know, to anyone that he was found guilty on this.

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Speaker 2: We've got a statement both from Hunter Biden and from

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Speaker 2: his attorney, Abby Lowell. We're naturally disappointed by today's verdicts

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Speaker 2: law rights. We respect the jury process, and as we've

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Speaker 2: done throughout this case, will continue to vigorously pursue all

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Speaker 2: the legal challenges available to Hunter.

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Speaker 3: So what will this appeal look like or what should

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Speaker 3: it look like?

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Speaker 8: Then? You know, it's interesting, you know, and Joe, you know,

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Speaker 8: I'm not a lawyer. I'm you know, just a lowly

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Speaker 8: former congressman and data analytic counter terrorism expert and company

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Speaker 8: owner and distillery owner. But I think I think what

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Speaker 8: this means Abby Lowe is an incredible attorney. You know,

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Speaker 8: I know him personally. Also, I think what they're going

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Speaker 8: to look at again is really how long the charges are,

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Speaker 8: but almost a compassionate look at the at what has

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Speaker 8: happened to Hunter since then. But as far as the appeals,

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Speaker 8: I think it's really going to depend on the sentencing.

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Speaker 8: I'm really wondering, you know, if Hunter gets jail time.

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Speaker 8: I think it's possible he does get some jail time here,

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Speaker 8: and again, what does that do with the ridiculousness that

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Speaker 8: we saw before the verdict, where you had the far

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Speaker 8: right or people that were Trump supporters saying he was

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Speaker 8: going to get off. I mean, it destroys that narrative.

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Speaker 8: I don't think that makes any difference with the breathlessness

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Speaker 8: of deep state and globalist conspiracy theories that seemed to

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Speaker 8: have you know, captured Maga Joe. But I think the

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Speaker 8: appeals process with Abby he knows, you know, where he

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Speaker 8: really does know where the gaps are in a prosecutorial

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Speaker 8: case and what he can exploit based on the rule

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Speaker 8: of law. But think about what he said he respects

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Speaker 8: the jury process. That's really not something you got out

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Speaker 8: of the Trump team on his thirty four conviction. So

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Speaker 8: I think it's just that stark contrast the rule of

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Speaker 8: law and individuals who respect American institutions and those who don't.

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Speaker 2: So let's get to the politics of it, Denver. That's

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Speaker 2: the world in which you come from, and we tend

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Speaker 2: to talk about here. You mentioned some important names. Really

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Speaker 2: one of them and James Comer. I could mention Jim

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Speaker 2: Jordan as well, everyone's asking what this means for the

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Speaker 2: presidential election. I'm curious what it means for these two

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Speaker 2: chairs in the Republican House who wanted to impeach Joe Biden.

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Speaker 3: It might be emboldened by this verdict.

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Speaker 8: You know, if they're emboldened by a guilty verdict of

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Speaker 8: a recovering addict, that really you know, I think I

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Speaker 8: think it would be pretty amazing for them to try

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Speaker 8: to pursue this based on the fact that the gun

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Speaker 8: charge was a specific thing that Hunter Biden did that

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Speaker 8: really had nothing to do with the laptop politics. It's

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Speaker 8: it's a really specific charge, and there's so much there's

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Speaker 8: so many differences to say between the gun charge, the

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Speaker 8: tax charges, and what the impeachment proceedings are. These are

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Speaker 8: three huge different wickets, you know that they're going after.

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Speaker 8: So if they try to reboot this, I think what's

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Speaker 8: gonna happen is they got to you know what they're

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Speaker 8: gonna do. They're gonna war game this out. There's gonna

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Speaker 8: be a political backlash because now you have this duplicity

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Speaker 8: right where you have Hunter Biden being convicted and Donald

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Speaker 8: Trump with his thirty four counts, where the question is

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Speaker 8: going to be Hold on a second, you guys certainly

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Speaker 8: have failed up to this point. It was actually legal.

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Speaker 8: We have a legal proceeding for this. What are you

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Speaker 8: guys doing where you're trying to reboot this We're using

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Speaker 8: American tax payer money where it's already been discredited. I

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Speaker 8: think there is going to be some war gaming on

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Speaker 8: that side, but we're also so close to the election. Joe,

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00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 8: I don't know if it matters that much. I don't

438
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 8: think the far right's going to change. I don't think

439
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 8: there's going to be anybody else who changes or vote,

440
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 8: you know, to Trump, you know, based on the fact

441
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 8: that they're doing this. I don't think that happens. I

442
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 8: think the gas lighting and the deep state conspiracy theories

443
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 8: are so entrenched in a large portion of our population.

444
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 8: I just don't know if it matters.

445
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 2: We talked earlier with Nick Ackerman, the former Watergate prosecutor,

446
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:45,120
Speaker 2: who suggested that if you were giving Hunter Biden legal advice,

447
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 2: he just go ahead and plead guilty in the next

448
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 2: trial for more favorable treatment.

449
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 3: What do you think about that?

450
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 8: You know, listen, when I think for me, you know,

451
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,640
Speaker 8: if you're trying to fix your life and you've done

452
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 8: things in the past, and you're talking about, you know,

453
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 8: offenses that happened years and years ago. I think there's

454
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 8: a willingness or a pride to where you want to fight.

455
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 8: It depends, I think, on what they see the sentence thing. Again,

456
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,719
Speaker 8: I don't think he's going to plead guilty on the

457
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,880
Speaker 8: tax charges. I just don't see that happening. The fact

458
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 8: that he paid, you know, paid those taxes back. I

459
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 8: think it's going to be an interesting case. I think

460
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 8: it's probably more complex than the gun case. To be honest,

461
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 8: I think this was rather straightforward. I don't see him

462
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 8: pleading guilty on those charges, or maybe some limited plea

463
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 8: on specific charges, maybe another plead deal. But again, I

464
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 8: just don't see if they if they don't offer them

465
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 8: a plea deal, I just don't see him pleading guilty

466
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 8: at this point. Of course, you know, Joe, sometimes I'm right,

467
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 8: sometimes I'm wrong, but I just don't I just don't

468
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 8: see him doing I don't see him pleading guilty at

469
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 8: this point.

470
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 2: It's a very insightful statement. When you're trying to fix

471
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: your life, you might be more likely to fight. As

472
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 2: we spend time with Denver, Riggelman. In our last minute

473
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 2: or two here Denver, we're going to hear from the

474
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 2: special counsel David Weiss. Looks like coming up top of

475
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 2: the hour about a half an hour from now, we're

476
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 2: told he will not take questions.

477
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 3: What do you think he'll say.

478
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 8: I think he's going to say that he's going to

479
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:11,479
Speaker 8: have to really toe the line. I think he's going

480
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 8: to say he rejects you know, he respects the jury

481
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 8: process also. But here's what I want to watch for.

482
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 8: If it's something like nobody's above the law and it's

483
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 8: cockshore and it's preening, I think it's going to come

484
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 8: off as ludicrous because he is a Trump appointed attorney.

485
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 8: I think what they need to say is they need

486
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 8: to respect somebody who's trying to come back from addiction

487
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 8: and all the addicts that are out there, including members

488
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 8: of my family who've gone through this, and I think

489
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 8: they need to recognize that, yes, he broke the rule

490
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 8: of law and he needs to be held accountable, but

491
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 8: this is somebody trying to fix their life. So I

492
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 8: would actually hope that David Weiss would go for leniency

493
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 8: on sentencing. I don't see that happening. But I think

494
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 8: that's the right thing to do. But you know, right

495
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 8: and politics are sometimes mutually exclusive, my friend, and so

496
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 8: it could be you know, so it could be a

497
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 8: cockshore preening. You know, we knew we were right the

498
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 8: whole time. But my guess is it won't be because

499
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 8: I think it comes off as gratuitous.

500
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 2: If he does that, well, you and I both know

501
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 2: that everyone's family is exposed to this somehow, I refuse

502
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: to believe that any family has spared this experience when

503
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: it comes to addiction.

504
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 3: I have less than a minute as the weaponization argument over.

505
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 8: Oh no, no, I mean, oh no, I mean I

506
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 8: still think it should be over if you're saying and

507
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 8: you have any rational thought in your pee brain, right,

508
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 8: But I think that honestly, I think they're going to

509
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 8: try to find another way to slant angle this on

510
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 8: the far right and Trump supporters, and now it's going

511
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 8: to be always going to get out of jail time.

512
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 8: I don't think he does, but we'll see. I hope

513
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 8: he does. But I don't think it's really going to

514
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 8: change the weaponization argument at all from the far right.

515
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 8: I think they're so embedded in it and they really

516
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 8: have no way to get out of it that they're

517
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 8: going to try to continue it in some ridiculous, conspiracy

518
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 8: infested way.

519
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 2: I told you I was going to bring you a

520
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: different conversation, and that's always what it is with Denver Wriggleman.

521
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 2: It's great to have you back, and I appreciate your

522
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 2: personal insights. To Denver, you can't talk about this without

523
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 2: feeling some level of personal impact, knowing that this is

524
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 2: a story of addiction, it's a story of personal behavior.

525
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: It's a very messy story here if you want to

526
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: read about it on the criminal and one that the

527
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 2: Biden family was obviously struggling with.

528
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: For the last week, you're listening to the Bloomberg Balance

529
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: of Power podcast. Catch Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern

530
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: on Eppo car Play, and then Proudo with the Bloomberg

531
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 1: Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts,

532
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: or watch us live on YouTube.

533
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 9: All of our attention here in Washington has been in

534
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 9: William Wilmington, Delaware today, where we got the verdict from

535
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 9: the jury twelve peers finding Hunter Biden guilty of three

536
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 9: different crimes. It's worth pointing out, Joe that those three

537
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 9: crimes combined could carry a maximum sentence of twenty five

538
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 9: years in prison, although that sentencing has not happened yet.

539
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 9: The judge did not set a date for that today.

540
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, the fact that we don't have a sen sentencing

541
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 2: date is interesting because obviously we're just trying to get

542
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: a sense of what that could mean and whether there's

543
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 2: going to be an appeal. Based on the statement from

544
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 2: Abby Loohola, it looks like there will be one. It's

545
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: just a question of what form that appeal takes, and

546
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 2: we want to hear about it. From Eric Larson, Bloomberg

547
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: legal reporter who has gone from one courthouse at Lower

548
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 2: Manhattan covering Donald Trump's trial, to one in Wilmington with

549
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: Hunter Biden, and back with us from World Headquarters in

550
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: New York.

551
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 3: Eric, it's great to see you here. The next phase

552
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 3: would be sentencing. How long will we wait?

553
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 10: Well, the judge ended the hearing today without giving any

554
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 10: indication other than to say that normally, in most cases,

555
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 10: it would be about one hundred and twenty days out.

556
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 10: That's what the judge said. That would put his sentencing

557
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 10: in October, which of course would be just about a

558
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 10: month before the election. So it's unclear what the parties

559
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 10: will argue. Hunter Biden could argue for later sentencing, suggesting

560
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 10: that it could go after the election, or make some

561
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 10: other arguments for or prosecutors could try to have it

562
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 10: happen sooner just to get it out of the way.

563
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 9: Well, and how would that timeline and potentially the appeal

564
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 9: process if the defense does indeed pursue that interact with

565
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 9: the separate trial that he is facing in California in

566
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 9: September on tax charges, could failure to wrap up this

567
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 9: case entirely be justification for a delay in that case.

568
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 6: Potentially, you know.

569
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 10: It's possible, but that could also go the other way.

570
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 10: The prosecutors could argue to have a sentencing happen faster

571
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 10: to get it wrapped up before the next trial begins.

572
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 10: It's kind of a similar argument and discussions that we've

573
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 10: had around Trump with his four competing criminal cases, and

574
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 10: of course most of those did end up getting delayed,

575
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 10: but we do have sentencing happening anyway in that first

576
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 10: Trump case, So these will happen eventually, will happen, but

577
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 10: this September trial is really going to be a huge,

578
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 10: a huge threat to Biden. I think much more significant

579
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 10: than this gun case. So they're going to have a

580
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 10: lot of preparation and getting ready for that one.

581
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 2: Eric, we're waiting to hear from the Special Council. David

582
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 2: Weiss will be holding forth soon from Wilmington. Less than

583
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: a year ago, he was on Capitol Hill in a

584
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: closed door hearing with lawmakers professing to the level of

585
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 2: authority that he had in this case to bring charges.

586
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: Republicans were concerned that there was interference in this case.

587
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 2: He made clear there was not. What's he going to

588
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: say today.

589
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 10: You know, I think he's going to make a very

590
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 10: strong case for his independence. He's going to point out

591
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 10: that he was going to say that he wasn't being

592
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 10: told what to do in any way. Of course, Trump

593
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 10: and his allies insists that Joe Biden has been pulling

594
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 10: the strings behind the scenes here. The Special Council is

595
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 10: going to insist on the independence. In fact, that's the

596
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 10: whole point of a Special Council. That's why Merrick Garland

597
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 10: appointed him, was to get rid of any suggestion of

598
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 10: involvement by the White House.

599
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 9: Well, Eric, it'll be interesting to hear the Special Council

600
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 9: speak to the nature of these charges as well that

601
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 9: he was found guilty of considering we've heard repeatedly that

602
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 9: it's a bit abnormal for a case like this to

603
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 9: be going into court. This question around lying on the

604
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 9: forms when purchasing a gun, we have heard usually wouldn't

605
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 9: have been prosecuted in this way. A case pursued this heavily.

606
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 9: Can you just provide some context here as to how

607
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 9: unusual this is?

608
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 10: Well, I think arguments can be made on both sides there.

609
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 10: Perhaps it's possible that individuals who are caught lying on

610
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 10: a form like this may not be charged, but in

611
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 10: a case is high profile, is this when you have

612
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 10: a defendant who is being investigated so deeply, it's difficult

613
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 10: for a prosecutor or an investigator to uncover significant wrongdoing

614
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 10: and then just not charge it. I mean, that would

615
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 10: have played into the allegation that hunter Biden was receiving

616
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 10: special treatment. We did see that there was this plea

617
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 10: agreement that was reached. Of course, that all fell apart

618
00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 10: because largely, you know, the judge questioned whether or not

619
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 10: Hunter Biden should be free from any future prosecution, basically

620
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 10: saying that the deal was too sweet for hunter Biden,

621
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 10: and sort of played into the Republican criticisms there. So

622
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 10: you know clearly the jury agreed here whether or not

623
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 10: every single case like this would have been brought. It

624
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 10: was put before a jury and they deliberated for just

625
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 10: three hours before deciding that the government was correct and

626
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 10: that Hunter Biden had broken this law.

627
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 9: Yeah, the whole thing did happen relatively quickly. Bloomberg Legal

628
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 9: reporter Eric Larson, thank you so much for joining us,

629
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 9: helping us break things down. We want to get some

630
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 9: more reaction now from Nicole Bernecki. She is a partner

631
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 9: at Jodre Bernecki and is joining us now from New York. Nicole,

632
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 9: welcome to Balance of Power on Bloomberg TV and Radio.

633
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 9: We were just speaking with Aaron Eric there about the

634
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 9: relatively unclear timeline as to when sentencing could actually happen.

635
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 9: But do you expect that Hunter Biden will serve at

636
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 9: least sometime in prison for these crimes he was found

637
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 9: guilty of.

638
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 6: Good afternoon. Thank you for having me.

639
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 5: I honestly do not expect that he will serve any time,

640
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 5: and this has nothing to do with him being a

641
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 5: public figure. Sentencing in federal courts is a process. It's

642
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 5: a mechanical process that requires practically going down checklist of

643
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 5: many factors. You have to see if there's factors that

644
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 5: are aggravating, factors that are mitigating potentially. Right now, he's

645
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 5: accused of these tax crimes as well. That has not

646
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 5: been resolved, so the issue of whether there will be

647
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 5: any priors to consider is still open. But there's other

648
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,479
Speaker 5: factors as well, whether the crime was violent, whether there

649
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 5: were any victims that had to be made whole. As

650
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 5: we know, this is not really applicable here, so I

651
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 5: don't think that this will result in incarceration, but we

652
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 5: will obviously see what will happen depending on the outcome

653
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 5: of the other case and how quickly this will go.

654
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: Nicole, As we wait to hear from the Special Council

655
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 2: in this case, he's going to be speaking from the

656
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: podium in Wilmington shortly here. I wonder your thoughts on

657
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,239
Speaker 2: the quick nature of these deliberations only three hours, and

658
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: what type of case Hunter Biden's attorneys will bring on appeal.

659
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 5: I think the reason that it went so fast with

660
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 5: the deliberations is that, if you think about it, this

661
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 5: case actually is pretty simple on his face. That's why

662
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 5: there was not a lot of witnesses, not a lot

663
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 5: of evidence, because this case revolved around his intent and

664
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 5: whether he committed these acts that he was accused of knowingly.

665
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 5: So the jury can consider credibility issues, can consider circumstantial

666
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 5: evidence to create a picture of whether this was knowing

667
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 5: and intentional. And I think that in their minds that

668
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 5: given his prior history of drug use and his own

669
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 5: candor in discussing his drug use problems, I think they

670
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 5: just didn't have a big dilemma right there in order

671
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 5: to determine that he was actually guilty and committed it knowingly.

672
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 9: So what could the defense do on appeal realistically to

673
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 9: change the narrative, to change mindsn cole or do you

674
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 9: not really see a path for that?

675
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 5: I think it will be very complicated. First of all,

676
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 5: the successive appeal depends on what objections they asserted on

677
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 5: the record. There is certain procedure in bringing an appeal

678
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 5: you have to preserve it during the trial, So we

679
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 5: need to know reading the transcript how effective they were

680
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 5: doing that. But in terms of the legal theory, and

681
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 5: in terms of the jury's decision, and in terms of

682
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 5: the fact that there was not a lot of witnesses

683
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 5: not a lot of evidence. I don't think this will

684
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 5: be an easy appeal for them to.

685
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 6: Be successful on.

686
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:31,720
Speaker 3: It's interesting to consider.

687
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: We spoke earlier with Nick Ackerman, the former Watergate prosecutor Nicole.

688
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: He said it would be hoof Hunter Biden and his

689
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 2: legal team to plead guilty at the next trial that's

690
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: tax evasion trial to get preferred favorable treatment.

691
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 3: Do you agree.

692
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 5: There is some merit to that. It really depends on

693
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 5: the evidence in the other case. But I think it's

694
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 5: also pretty straightforward. I don't think he has a lot

695
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 5: of defense, so it would be better to just just

696
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 5: get it out there and be proactive about finalizing these

697
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 5: cases instead of dragging them to trial. If the evidence

698
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 5: is overwhelming and if your chances are slim to none

699
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 5: at prevailing, so I would they have to have an

700
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 5: honest discussion and see what's the best course of proceeding.

701
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 5: But I think that a guilty please would make a

702
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 5: lot of sense.

703
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 9: Wow, well, Nicole. I also wonder about whether or not

704
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 9: Hunter Biden, having made the decision not to testify in

705
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 9: his own defense this time around, maybe should consider doing

706
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 9: so and the appellate process. I mean, if all of

707
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 9: this is about his state of mind and his intention

708
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 9: when he bought that gun in twenty eighteen. Can anyone

709
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 9: else really describe that other than he himself.

710
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 5: You make a great point, but in the legal process

711
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 5: it's a little different.

712
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 6: It's usually advisable.

713
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 5: Not to put the defendant on the stand because that

714
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 5: opens a lot of doors to questions that can just

715
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 5: ruin their defense and ruin their case. And I think

716
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 5: that in his particular case, given the books that he wrote,

717
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 5: given the statements that he made, I think it's better

718
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 5: that he just does not testify on his own behalf.

719
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 6: That would be a better legal strategy.

720
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 5: But as I said, these two cases are slightly different,

721
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 5: So we'll see what they decide.

722
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 2: Thanks for being with us year on Bloomberg TV in radio.

723
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: As we anticipate commentary from David Weiss the Special Council, Nicole,

724
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 2: if we have to interrupt you, our apologies in advance.

725
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 2: The podium has been set and we understand that he's

726
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 2: going to be speaking about five minutes from now. Nicole,

727
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: What will he tell us about this case? What point

728
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 2: does he need to make today? Is the political world

729
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 2: as well as the legal world watches.

730
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 5: In case of this particular case, as well as the

731
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 5: Trump case that ended in New York. As you stated,

732
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 5: these are very popular defendants, these are public figures. But

733
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 5: he needs to definitely emphasize the fact that we need

734
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 5: to look at the evidence and the law and not

735
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 5: just not be influenced in anyone by the fact that

736
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 5: he's the son of a sitting president.

737
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 9: Well a sitting president for now Nicole, who has promised

738
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 9: that he would not pardon Hunter Biden for these crimes.

739
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 9: But he, of course is competing for reelection right now.

740
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,959
Speaker 9: Say he loses in November and becomes a lame duck

741
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 9: and decides maybe he has nothing else to fear politically

742
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 9: and pardons Hunter Biden at that time. Could that be

743
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 9: something then undone by Donald Trump if he wins a

744
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 9: second term in office.

745
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 6: It could. But you're also making a great point.

746
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 5: I know that right now he's saying that he will

747
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 5: not pardon him, but you know he can change his

748
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 5: decision later. We need to remember that he's also currently

749
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 5: an actively campaigning politician, so he needs to say things

750
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 5: that are right in the eyes of the public, especially

751
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 5: right now. It's a very sensitive time given that the

752
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 5: political polls state that they have each have fifty to fifty.

753
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 6: Chants of winning.

754
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 5: So everything that they do going forward will will have

755
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 5: a lot of significance for the campaign. So he's saying

756
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 5: that right now. It makes a lot of sense, but

757
00:37:58,920 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 5: we'll see what he does later.

758
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 2: Nicole Brenecki, partner at Jodre Brinecki. We appreciate your insights, Nicole.

759
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here on this breaking

760
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 2: news day.

761
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,879
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast kench

762
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: just live weekdays at noon Eastern on Applecarplay and then

763
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: roun Oo with a Bloomberg Business app. You can also

764
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station,

765
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

766
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 2: Rick Davis and Jeanie Shanzano are with us Bloomberg Politics

767
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 2: contributors for their take on this.

768
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 3: It's great to have you both with us here.

769
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: Genie, now that you've heard from the special counsel, your

770
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 2: feelings on this day, Hunter Biden is found guilty and

771
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: I'm asking you this from a political perspective. I don't

772
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 2: want to turn either of you into legal analysts here,

773
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 2: but this is important. There seems to be an equivalency

774
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 2: in many minds between this case and that of the

775
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: former president Donald Trump, who's running for reelection.

776
00:38:59,120 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 3: Do you see it that.

777
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 11: Way to a certain extent, I mean, we are hearing that.

778
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 11: I will tell you what comes top of mind for

779
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 11: me amidst all of this stunning news that we've had

780
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 11: in the last couple of weeks, but certainly today is

781
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 11: really the fact that, you know, the Trump campaign is

782
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 11: having sort of machinations going on behind the scenes as

783
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 11: to how they're going to respond to this. And I

784
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 11: think this is important to underscore he's been empathetic in

785
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 11: the last week to this issue of addiction. We just

786
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 11: heard the special counsel say this case wasn't about addiction,

787
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,760
Speaker 11: it was about lying on a form. But there's also

788
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 11: the underreported reality here that this is a Second Amendment case,

789
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 11: a case that many Second Amendment supporters feel that Hunter

790
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 11: byte Biden can and should take to the Supreme Court

791
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 11: and potentially win. And of course I'm not clear as

792
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 11: to why the President's team line has him lined up

793
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 11: today to go talk about gun prevention. It's just sort

794
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 11: of the conflation of odd realities here that are creating

795
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 11: a mishmash, and the Trump campaign issues a statement pulls

796
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 11: it back. So it's hard for both of these campaigns

797
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 11: to respond to this given all that it entails. But

798
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,439
Speaker 11: I do want to underscore the two AA community very

799
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 11: very supportive of Hunter Biden on this, nothing to do

800
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 11: with his father, but to do with the issue of

801
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 11: the Second Amendment and the fact they think that this

802
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 11: could expand access to guns, something that would be ironic

803
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 11: if Hunter Biden takes that to the Supreme Court, given

804
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 11: the fact where his father is right now and always

805
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 11: has been politically on guns.

806
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, and he quite literally today is at in every

807
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 9: town for gun safety event. The split screen is pretty remarkable.

808
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 9: Genie was mentioning the reaction from the Trump campaign. Rick

809
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 9: we got in a statement a quote, this trial has

810
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 9: been nothing more than a distraction from the real crimes

811
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 9: of the Biden crime family. Of course, those crimes have

812
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 9: not been fully born out in a formal prosecution or

813
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 9: a jury of peace finding them guilty of anything. That

814
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 9: is just the case in this case where Hunter Biden

815
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 9: was found guilty of these three crimes. How difficult is

816
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 9: it for the Trump campaign to seize on this conviction?

817
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 9: Is this actually potentially just difficult water to navigate considering

818
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 9: we are talking about addiction here, something that also has

819
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 9: played Donald Trump's own family.

820
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 12: That's right. I'm glad you mentioned Accilla because you know,

821
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 12: a lot of people don't realize that Donald Trump's brother,

822
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 12: Fred Junior died of alcohol addiction, and it's an issue

823
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 12: that he doesn't talk openly about. But did you know

824
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 12: after becoming president. And I think it was one of

825
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:43,320
Speaker 12: the most honest moments of the Trump presidency in twenty seventeen.

826
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 12: So I'm sure that part of this informs, you know,

827
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 12: that opinion of the Trump campaign and Donald Trump himself.

828
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 12: That being said, if they thought this could be exploited

829
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 12: to hurt Joe Biden, I think they would, And I

830
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 12: think that's why they're being cautious because I don't think

831
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 12: they see an opening in the exploitation. I'm sure they've

832
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 12: pulled it. I'm sure Tony Ferbrizio is sitting in there saying,

833
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 12: be careful, guys, this is likely to blow back on

834
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 12: you if you go after the sins of the sun.

835
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 12: And frankly, the Judiciary Committee under Jim Jordan has failed

836
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 12: miserably at trying to connect the two and create an

837
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 12: impeachment process for Joe Biden. So, as you point out,

838
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 12: nobody's been able to find the goods on the Biden

839
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 12: crime family, and so I think this was a head

840
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 12: nod in that direction. But I don't think it goes

841
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 12: very far from here.

842
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 2: As we're talking politics here, Genie and I know this

843
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: stuff is very deeply personal for a lot of families,

844
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 2: many of whom we're hearing from on social media, who

845
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: can relate with the Bidens today. Is there an empathy vote?

846
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 2: Is that part of this for the Biden campaign?

847
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 8: There could be.

848
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 11: We haven't seen that show up in the polls yet.

849
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 11: Of course, we're just an hour or two out of

850
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 11: the conviction, so we may see that. But I'm reminded

851
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 11: about the twenty twenty debate when one of the most

852
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 11: important statements that Joe Biden made, the most remembered, if

853
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 11: you will, after the debate, was the fact that he

854
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 11: said I love my son when it was brought up,

855
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 11: and I support him and he's struggling with addiction. That

856
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 11: was something a lot of voters looked at him and said,

857
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 11: we feel your pain, so to speak. We understand because

858
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 11: so many of us, including as Rick just mentioned, the

859
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 11: former president, have dealt with this issue. You know, one

860
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 11: other thing we should keep in mind as we think

861
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 11: of the politics. And you were just talking to Nicole

862
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 11: about this prior to the Special Council statement, was on

863
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 11: this issue of the pardon, the President said, I will

864
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 11: not pardon my son. What he hasn't said as far

865
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 11: as I know, And I'm curious for one of the

866
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 11: great Bloomberg reporters to ask, does that include commuting a sentence?

867
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 11: Because he can pardon, he can also commute, And depending

868
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 11: on what happenings with what happens in the sentencing phase

869
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 11: in this and or the tax case, would he consider

870
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 11: commuting that sentence. I don't think he wouldn't. I don't

871
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 11: think he should, but he hasn't as far as I know,

872
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,240
Speaker 11: gone on the record of the difference between the pardon

873
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 11: and the commutation, and he could constitutionally do both.

874
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 9: It's an excellent point, jeaning, I wonder if that is

875
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 9: a question he may end up being asked in a

876
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 9: presidential debate in this cycle, keeping in mind that the

877
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 9: first one is just sixteen days away, scheduled for June

878
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 9: twenty seventh in Atlanta, Rick, And as we consider what

879
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 9: the tenor of that debate may be like, how these

880
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 9: various legal troubles plaguing both the Biden family through Hunter

881
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,320
Speaker 9: Biden and Donald Trump through his myriad legal cases that

882
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 9: he is facing, may come up. Does this conviction today

883
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 9: take away a talking point from Donald Trump about the

884
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 9: weaponization of a justice system considering that very same system

885
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 9: just convicted the son of a president.

886
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, he has to be careful. It's not an easy

887
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 12: attack now because the parry on this by Biden could

888
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 12: be very powerful. Could be that, you know, if there

889
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 12: was any political manipulation that the Justice Department, wouldn't I

890
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 12: have done it for my own son. That could be

891
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 12: a big moment in the debate. And so I think

892
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 12: Donald Trump has to be extraordinarily cautious, you know, and

893
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 12: even because he's got sentencing after that. And so the

894
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 12: last thing you want to do is use a national

895
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 12: debate to work the ref the judge in this case

896
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 12: in a way that is going to have the judge

897
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 12: basically say, look, obviously there's no remorse for Donald Trump.

898
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 12: You know, let's put him in a who scout Rikers

899
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 12: Island is not a bad place to spend the weekend.

900
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 12: So I think that I think that it's a very

901
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 12: treacherous issue for Donald Trump. Now, it was kind of

902
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 12: a free option for the last year. He could say

903
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 12: and do pretty much whatever he wanted to, got a

904
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,439
Speaker 12: couple of fines for, you know, breaking gag orders which

905
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 12: were totally irrelevant. And now it'sactly going to potentially hurt himself.

906
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 12: And that's when I think you'll see Donald Trump's self

907
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 12: interests to the four and probably temper anything he says

908
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 12: about these legal issues.

909
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 2: Genie, I want you to go a little bit further

910
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 2: down the road you were just driving here, whether it's

911
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 2: a commutation or a pardon. If Joe Biden changes his mind,

912
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 2: how does that play publicly here? If we're looking at

913
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 2: what appears to be a benign reading on the campaign trail, Now,

914
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 2: what would an action like that mean?

915
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 11: Very very tough for Joe Biden, because of course he

916
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 11: has publicly said he won't pardon. He would have to

917
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 11: go back on his word, and that never, you know,

918
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 11: sort of sits well with people because it's considered a lie.

919
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 11: Now he could try to explain it away, this is

920
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 11: my son, but that would play right in the hands

921
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 11: of this two tier justice system that the Republicans keep

922
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 11: talking about and of course, if we go further down

923
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 11: the line, imagine if Donald Trump wins and Joe Biden

924
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 11: is a lame duck, does you know legacy reasons? He

925
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 11: may care, but otherwise he may say, I am going

926
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 11: to make a really tough sort of Sophie's choice, if

927
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 11: you will, between my duties as a parent and my

928
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 11: love for my son and my duties as the president

929
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 11: of the United States. Now that I'm a lame duck,

930
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 11: I'm going to think about seriously pardoning or commuting. You know,

931
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 11: there's no good option here. Again, I think most of

932
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 11: us would empathize that this is a tough decision, But

933
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 11: how he manages that I think is going to be

934
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 11: fascinating to watch. And of course we've got the tax

935
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 11: trial coming up in LA and people are going to

936
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 11: be a lot less forgiving, I think, on that than

937
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 11: they are on this gun issue. So that is going

938
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 11: to complicate things further for the president.

939
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, especially considering the timing with that scheduled for September,

940
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 9: where we are much closer to the vote on November fifth.

941
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 9: I also want to talk about how this reflects not

942
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 9: just on Hunter Biden and the Biden family, but the

943
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 9: Department of Justice. We heard Special Counsel David Weiss and

944
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 9: his remarks just moments ago, specifically calling out Attorney General

945
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 9: mare Garla and thanking him for providing them the resources

946
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 9: and the independence to bring this prosecution forward. But Merrit

947
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 9: Garland also, as soon as this week could be held

948
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 9: in contempt of Congress, at least on the floor of

949
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 9: the House. That's something that they are pursuing, and has

950
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 9: been last week before, testifying before a chamber in the

951
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 9: House and in a Washington Post OpEd today defending the

952
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 9: Justice Department. The op ed published said, in recent weeks,

953
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 9: we've seen an escalation of attacks that go far beyond

954
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 9: public scrutiny, criticism, and legitimate and necessary oversight of our work.

955
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 9: They are baseless, personal and dangerous. Rick, how do you

956
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 9: think Hunter Biden now being convicted may alter the way

957
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:42,240
Speaker 9: in which Congress pursues these questions around the Justice Department?

958
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 9: Can you hold Merret Garland in contempt over her audio

959
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 9: tapes if he did just allow all of this to

960
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 9: happen to an unpopular president's son.

961
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 12: Yeah, I think it's arguable that there's been open warfare

962
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,720
Speaker 12: between the House Judiciary Committee. Jim Jordan and the Department

963
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 12: of Justice since Jordan became chairman, and this is very

964
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 12: unhealthy for democracy and for the legal system. Jordan went

965
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 12: all over he could late last year bring Weiss, the

966
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 12: special prosecutor, into a hearing in the Justice Committee, first

967
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 12: time anybody can remember a special counsel actually testifying to

968
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 12: Congress before there's any trial at all and any prosecution.

969
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 12: So it broke a lot of ground, new ground and

970
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 12: not positive ground. I mean that was the beginning of

971
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,919
Speaker 12: a very bad cycle. And now, as you say, has

972
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 12: presented itself here. I think this verdict completely undermindes Jim

973
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 12: Jordan's entire premise, which is the Department of Justice is

974
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 12: cooking the books for Hunter Biden and in reverse going

975
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:56,399
Speaker 12: after actively prosecuting Donald Trump. So right now, I think

976
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 12: it makes Jordan look bad. I think it undermines the

977
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 12: ability to go after I think they'll be Republicans who say,

978
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 12: why are we talking about this? This is not something

979
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 12: that we want to go into the election year to discuss.

980
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 12: This is fundamentally the problem with the right wing of

981
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 12: the Republican Party. They want to go down swinging, even

982
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 12: if that means losing, and the vast majority of Republicans

983
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 12: in the House want to be in the majority next

984
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 12: year and continue to make policy changes they think are important.

985
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 12: So this is as much a conflict within the Republican

986
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 12: Caucus as it is in between the Department Justice and

987
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:33,280
Speaker 12: Jim Jordan.

988
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 2: Isn't that type of overreach, Genie the best thing that

989
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:38,760
Speaker 2: could happen in the Biden campaign.

990
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 11: It is, It's one of the best things that could

991
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 11: happen to them. But I am just I'm listening to

992
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 11: Rick and I am agreeing with him personally. But then

993
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 11: I'm thinking back to what Jim Comer said when the

994
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 11: conviction came out, and he's the chair of the Oversight

995
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 11: and Accountability Committee, and what did he say. You hear

996
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 11: them saying that the dj tried to give Biden a

997
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 11: sweetheart clee deal that was smoked out by a federal judge.

998
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 11: Today is a step forward in accountability, he says. But

999
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 11: until the DOJ investigates everyone involved in the corrupt you

1000
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 11: know family, I can't remember the exact words, Biden family

1001
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 11: that generated like almost twenty million dollars according to his account,

1002
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 11: then the DOJ is going to continue to be in

1003
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 11: the pocket, so to speak, for the big guy Joe Biden.

1004
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 11: Now that was some of that is by memory, so

1005
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:31,879
Speaker 11: I didn't get his exact words right, but you could

1006
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 11: hear the tone, which is that this is not going

1007
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 11: to put this to rest, at least according to Jim

1008
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 11: Comer and that committee apparently. And they are saying this

1009
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 11: only happened because the federal judge you know, smoked out

1010
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 11: the sweetheart deal and put you know, a made Hunter

1011
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 11: Biden go on trial. So this is where we stand,

1012
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 11: and I think they're going to continue running down this

1013
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 11: road as fast as they can. They can't get Joe

1014
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 11: Biden yet for an impeachment, but they're darn sure going

1015
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 11: to keep going after Hunter and the rest of the family.

1016
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's great to point out that a statement from

1017
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 9: Chairman Comer. Certainly, we've seen a lot of statements flying

1018
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 9: thick and fast to day, including the statement that we

1019
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 9: got from the President. But Jeanie, do we also need

1020
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 9: to actually hear from him on this, not in written form,

1021
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 9: should he say something to address cameras, address the media.

1022
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 9: We just got an update and guidance from the White House.

1023
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 9: He's going to go to Wilmington this afternoon after his

1024
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 9: remarks here in Washington. At that Everytown event. He'll be

1025
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 9: in Wilmington, Delaware, presumably going to the side of his son.

1026
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,439
Speaker 9: Does he need to say much more?

1027
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 11: I think he should. I have not surprised he is

1028
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:42,399
Speaker 11: going to be with Hunter on this very tough day

1029
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 11: for his son. But I think he should say exactly

1030
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 11: what their statement said in his own words. I love

1031
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 11: my son, Jill, and I support him. We're proud of

1032
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 11: him for his recovery. We also respect the justice system

1033
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 11: and the jury verdict, and we will support him as

1034
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 11: he continues to look forward to appeals and I am

1035
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 11: going to go, you know, spend some time with my

1036
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,760
Speaker 11: family in private. I think all of us as human

1037
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,959
Speaker 11: beings could respect a statement like that, and I think

1038
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,240
Speaker 11: he should say it. I don't know if he will.

1039
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 11: I think if he does, it'll probably be like with

1040
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 11: helicopters spinning around, so it's hard to hear him. But

1041
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 11: I think he should try to say it and get

1042
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 11: that word out all right.

1043
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 9: Jeanie Schanzeno and Rick Davis, Bloomberg Politics contributors, thank you

1044
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 9: so much for joining us on what is another historic

1045
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 9: day in American political history. The first time ever that

1046
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 9: a child of a sitting President has been convicted.

1047
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:41,399
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch

1048
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 1: Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Apple car Play

1049
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: and then broud Outo with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen

1050
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us

1051
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: live on YouTube.

1052
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 3: Here on Bloomberg TV and radio.

1053
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 2: It's been spending a lot of time on the Hunter

1054
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: Biden verdict, as we promised you that we would. But Kaylee,

1055
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 2: we also have to turn our attention to this very

1056
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 2: slowly developing story in Israel. Anthony Blincoln on his eighth

1057
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 2: trip now to the Middle East, and of course a

1058
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 2: wait on what's going to happen with a potential ceasefire

1059
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 2: that the Biden White House rolled out some time ago.

1060
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 2: Now the UN Security Council voting to endorse the ceasefire

1061
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 2: deal on the table yesterday, and now reporting that Hamas

1062
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 2: says that it is accepting that UN Security Council ceasefire resolution.

1063
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 2: Anthony Blincoln met with Benjamin nett Yahoo to talk about this.

1064
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 3: Here's what he had to say.

1065
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 13: I met with Prime Minster Netanyahu last night and he

1066
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 13: reaffirmed his commitment to the proposal. Everyone's vote is in

1067
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 13: except for one vote, and that's from US, and that's

1068
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 13: what we wait for for more.

1069
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 9: We turn now to Hadar Suskin. He is Americans for

1070
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 9: Peace Now, President and CEO. As we make sense of

1071
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 9: what we're hearing from the Secretary of States, from the

1072
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 9: Israeli Prime Minister, and from Hamas itself. Hadar, it does

1073
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 9: feel like the messages are running potentially into some conflict here.

1074
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 9: As Blincoln says, yes, Israel is behind this. Netanyahu has

1075
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 9: reaffirmed this, But Netanyahu and his government also reaffirmed that

1076
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 9: they want to see Jamas entirely destroyed, and a ceasefire

1077
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 9: agreement would potentially make that difficult to accomplish. And for

1078
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 9: Hamas saying that it does support the UN ceasefire resolution,

1079
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 9: we haven't seen all of the parties come out and

1080
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 9: say the ceasefire begins. So what is your understanding of

1081
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 9: what exactly is happening here?

1082
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 14: Well, Kayley, I think what we're seeing is both the

1083
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 14: Nittanyahu government and the Hamas leadership want to be seen

1084
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,399
Speaker 14: by the US, by the UN globally as saying yes

1085
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 14: to this. They want to be seen as the party

1086
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:48,879
Speaker 14: that is moving toward peace. At the same time, while

1087
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 14: Natignano just reaffirmed it, and Hamas has now welcomed the

1088
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 14: UN resolution. Neither one has said, okay, let's sit down,

1089
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 14: let's let's start talking, let's implement the ceasefire. They both

1090
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 14: agreed in prince and said all right, now, let's start

1091
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 14: talking about the details, while at the same time both

1092
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 14: telling their domestic audiences nothing has changed on the Israeli side,

1093
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 14: and ten Yahou and others in his government are still

1094
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 14: saying they're going to completely destroy Hamas, the war is

1095
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 14: not over until again Hamas is completely eliminated, and other

1096
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:21,839
Speaker 14: very non specific goals like that that are frankly pretty

1097
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 14: impossible to measure. And Hamas quite similarly has you know,

1098
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 14: accepted the principle, but is still launching attacks, obviously has

1099
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 14: not released hostages, and is still telling it's its constituency

1100
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:36,439
Speaker 14: that you know, its plans haven't changed either.

1101
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 3: So bring us to a finer point here, Hidar.

1102
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 2: We all saw the president roll out a fairly detailed,

1103
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 2: three phased plan that seemed to be something everybody had

1104
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 2: their eyes on here.

1105
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:53,399
Speaker 3: But your point is a good one.

1106
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 2: Once all the parties sit down, they have to hammer

1107
00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:00,720
Speaker 2: out the fine print. What will be this sticking points

1108
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 2: when that happens.

1109
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 14: Well, there's really one big one, right. The president's plan

1110
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 14: that he that he proposed, which again was presented as

1111
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 14: an Israeli proposal, not the president's proposal himself, said a

1112
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 14: six week ceasefire during which certain hostages would be released

1113
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 14: and negotiations would start for a long term ceasefire, for

1114
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 14: a secession of hostilities, actually not just a ceasefire. And

1115
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 14: the president said if after those six weeks everything has

1116
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 14: not been finalized yet but negotiations are ongoing, then that

1117
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 14: the ceasefire would hold. And the real difference, the breakpoint

1118
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 14: here is this insistence by Nitin Yahu that they will

1119
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 14: not end the war until Hamas is completely eliminated, and

1120
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 14: Hamas is of course assistance insistence that they are not

1121
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 14: going to disappear. So that's that's the difference. The six

1122
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 14: weeks can be worked out, even the hostage release and

1123
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 14: the prisoner exchange, because part of this is of course

1124
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 14: Palestinian prisoners who are held in Israeli prisons being released.

1125
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 14: All of that could be worked out if the two

1126
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 14: sides would be willing to sit down and do so.

1127
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 14: But the whole plan here is to get to an

1128
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 14: actual endgame. It's not just to have this short term

1129
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 14: and this prisoner hostage exchange. And that's where the seemingly

1130
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 14: unbridgable difference is.

1131
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 9: Well, it seemed it was unbridgable even inside the Israeli

1132
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 9: government because it was a disagreement over what exactly the

1133
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 9: endgame should be that drove Beny Gantz out of the government,

1134
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 9: out of the war cabinet. He was unhappy with the

1135
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 9: Prime Minister not meeting his demands. What influence do you

1136
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 9: think that departure ultimately has on how this moves forward

1137
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 9: to dark.

1138
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 14: Well, you know, Gance and his folks leaving still leaves

1139
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 14: Nita Nyahu with a sixty four seat majority in the

1140
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 14: one hundred and twenty seat Kness. So it doesn't change

1141
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 14: anything immediately in terms of going to new elections, but

1142
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 14: it's one more sort of push, one more data point,

1143
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:07,439
Speaker 14: because ultimately what we're going to need is to get

1144
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 14: to this agreement is is a call for new elections

1145
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 14: in a new government. There is no way that this government,

1146
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 14: with not only Nita Nyahu but the parties led by

1147
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 14: ben Vier and Smotrich, those two in particular, will absolutely

1148
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 14: never agree to any kind of agreement. They've been quite

1149
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 14: clear on that.

1150
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 8: Now.

1151
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 14: The opposition parties, led by Yeah you're Lapide, Yeah your

1152
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 14: Golan and others have said that should Nita Naho move

1153
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 14: forward with this agreement, they would support his government from

1154
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 14: the outside, not as members, to implement the agreement. But

1155
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 14: that would mean that that sort of starts the clock

1156
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 14: ticking on the process of moving toward new elections. And

1157
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 14: the thing that is maybe the most interesting thing that

1158
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 14: came up this week is there's a lot of talk

1159
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 14: now that Nitayahu himself maybe getting to the point where

1160
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 14: he realized he's played out this line this government. You know,

1161
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 14: he's dragged it out in all these different ways. He's

1162
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 14: done all these different things, and he may be ready

1163
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 14: to start organizing for new elections sooner rather than later.

1164
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 3: Fascinating.

1165
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:11,919
Speaker 2: How about the war cabinet so called headar is Benny

1166
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 2: Gance replaced by a hard liner or does the war

1167
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 2: cabinet begin to fracture?

1168
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 14: Well, the only people left in the government are very hardliners.

1169
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 14: And you know Ben Vier, who has not had a

1170
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 14: seat in that war cabinet, has been demanding one. It's

1171
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 14: one of the things he wants to see happen Frankly,

1172
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 14: I don't think it makes a very big difference whether

1173
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,919
Speaker 14: he has that seat or not, because there are now

1174
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 14: no contrasting voices within the government. So the war cabinet

1175
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:42,920
Speaker 14: becomes largely irrelevant, frankly, because you did have Gance and

1176
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 14: his deputy Eisenkott sitting there with presumably at least some

1177
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 14: differing views, some moderating views. Now that they're out, the

1178
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 14: only voices in the government are very hard lined. You

1179
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 14: also really have only one leader in the government with

1180
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 14: significant military experience, which is Joav Galan, the Secretary of Defense,

1181
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 14: because again Smotriz ben Vere, the Religious Party leaders, none

1182
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 14: of those people even served their regular you know, three

1183
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:12,920
Speaker 14: years of military service, much less were they generals and

1184
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 14: military leaders. So they've really thinned the bench there within

1185
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 14: the coalition.

1186
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 9: Hadar, do you think visits, repeated visits like what we're

1187
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 9: seeing from the Secretary of State are actually helpful in

1188
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 9: all of this. He's been to the Middle East now

1189
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 9: eight times since October seventh, and it seems pretty consistently

1190
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 9: he leaves empty handed, even though he says things like

1191
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 9: Netanyahu when he spoke with him, still reaffirmed his commitments

1192
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 9: to a ceasefire agreement is the is the US government helping?

1193
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 14: Well, they're certainly trying to help. And I think that

1194
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 14: there are benefits to these visits. Remember they're not solely

1195
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 14: for the purpose of meeting with Ninitayahu or Israeli leaders.

1196
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 14: I met with Palestinian leaders, Jordanians, many others as well,

1197
01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 14: and it's part of patching together, you know, the Nessy

1198
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 14: Coalition to have the political backing to move this forward.

1199
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 14: But I think the US government can and should do more,

1200
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,360
Speaker 14: and can and should take a stronger position visa VI

1201
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 14: the Israeli government. But what's sure is that this is

1202
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 14: not moving forward without that significant push from the Americans,

1203
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 14: and so having Secretary Blink in there. President Biden has

1204
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 14: been himself, so many of our of our other leaders Burns,

1205
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 14: Jake Sherman and others have been there, I think is

1206
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 14: important in trying to move these conversations forward. The question

1207
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 14: is you know what's going to be the ultimate push,

1208
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 14: the ultimate declaration that nudges n across the line. Because

1209
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 14: we can talk and talk and talk, and what we've

1210
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 14: seen now as many months of talking about ce spires,

1211
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 14: talking about process, talking about different opportunities and different deals,

1212
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 14: but at the end there's a binary decision, right yes

1213
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:57,160
Speaker 14: or no? Is there a ceasefire and whatever it is.

1214
01:02:57,720 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 14: You know, we haven't gotten to that point yet. And

1215
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:02,520
Speaker 14: I think the next big question that or the next

1216
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 14: big moment out there is, of course, we have Nittanyahu

1217
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 14: scheduled to come here to Washington on July twenty fourth, now,

1218
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 14: and we'll see what the situation is you on that day.

1219
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 3: We're going to be calling you for insights.

1220
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 2: I think, Kadar Suskin, it's great to have you back

1221
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 2: to DAR Americans for Peace now, President and CEO. A

1222
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 2: story that we'll keep tabs on here on Bloomberg TV

1223
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 2: and radio. It's worth mentioning, Kaylee, because we spent so

1224
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:29,959
Speaker 2: much time and you actually made tracks to Baltimore when

1225
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 2: it happened that Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse, the deadly collapse,

1226
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 2: and a major milestone and the cleanup here is Baltimore's

1227
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 2: main shipping channel finally reopens.

1228
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, reopened yesterday, which is pretty remarkable and it's actually

1229
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 9: something we had the chance to speak to Maryland Governor

1230
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 9: Wes Moore about a few weeks ago on May thirtieth,

1231
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,919
Speaker 9: including the economic ramifications the collapse had for the state

1232
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 9: of Maryland and when he can confidently say things would

1233
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 9: get back to normal.

1234
01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 15: We saw during the month of April where there was

1235
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 15: a real concern about where unemployment rate for the state

1236
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 15: of Maryland was going to go for the month of April.

1237
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 15: And we're proud that because we were able to work

1238
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 15: with the private sector, work with our partners and all

1239
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 15: of our port partners, that not only for the month

1240
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 15: of April, has Maryland continued to have amongst the lowest

1241
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 15: unemployment rates in the entire country. We actually gained thousands

1242
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 15: of jobs during that same time period and watch labor

1243
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 15: participation actually increase during the month of April. So I

1244
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 15: could not be more proud of the response of this state.

1245
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 15: We've got a long road to go and I will

1246
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 15: not stop until we have a new bridge, a new

1247
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 15: Francis Scott Key Bridge built and overlooking the skyline of Baltimore.

1248
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 15: But the speed of this recovery really has been a marvel,

1249
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 15: and it's really been because we've had a coordinated effort

1250
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 15: in getting.

1251
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 12: It done well.

1252
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 2: You do have a lot to be proud of, Governor,

1253
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 2: and the heroic actions of the public safety officials in

1254
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 2: Baltimore and the state of Maryland, including the divers who

1255
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,919
Speaker 2: have been risking their lives to comb the bottom of

1256
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 2: the floor, of the remarkable stories to tell. But then

1257
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:01,479
Speaker 2: it becomes a question about money. And we've talked about

1258
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 2: this before on Bloomberg. In fact, we had a conversation

1259
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 2: earlier with Republican Congressman Patrick McHenry, chairs the House Financial

1260
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 2: Services Committee, and we asked him directly about the chances

1261
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 2: for a supplemental budget to rebuild the bridge passing this Congress,

1262
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:20,720
Speaker 2: and he talked about offsets that would be needed, other

1263
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 2: budget cuts, suggesting that we're spending too much. What are

1264
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:28,440
Speaker 2: you hearing from leaders in the House about that making

1265
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 2: that happen to rebuild the bridge.

1266
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 15: You know, I've been incredibly encouraged by the amount of

1267
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 15: bipartisan support that we've received, you know, people from from

1268
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 15: not just the Democratics side of the House, but also

1269
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 15: people from Chair Womack and Chair Cole from Oklahoma and

1270
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:49,440
Speaker 15: from Arkansas and Oklahoma respectively, people who have said, we

1271
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 15: understand the importance of getting this bridge rebuilt because it's

1272
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 15: a core artery for the Port of Baltimore, which is

1273
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 15: indispensable to the American economy, and what we're asking for

1274
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:01,840
Speaker 15: the one hundred percent cost share is just not saying

1275
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 15: all the American people are going to pay for it.

1276
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 15: I'm very confident that the American people will be made

1277
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 15: whole when you look at everything from insurance to potential

1278
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 15: pending litigation. Lloyd's of London has indicated this is going

1279
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:16,040
Speaker 15: to be the most expensive maritime tragedy in our nation's history.

1280
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 15: So the American people will be made whole. The reason

1281
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:20,680
Speaker 15: our ask for the one hundred percent cost share is

1282
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 15: essentially it's essentially bridge financing. It's saying that while we're

1283
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 15: going through the process of a potential litigation, which we

1284
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 15: know could take years, we've got to get moving. We've

1285
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 15: got to get building because my commitment to the people

1286
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 15: of my state and the people of this country, frankly,

1287
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 15: is that we are going to build this thing on

1288
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 15: time and on budget and effectively, and we're going to

1289
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 15: get the Port of Baltimore going again because it's important

1290
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 15: to the largest supply chain of our nation. But we've

1291
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,560
Speaker 15: got to get moving. That's the importance of the bipartisan

1292
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 15: support for the one hundred percent cost share, and we've

1293
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:54,960
Speaker 15: been incredibly heartened by the amount of by the encouraging

1294
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 15: words and supports that we've received from members from both

1295
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 15: sides of the aisle on this issue.

1296
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:01,800
Speaker 2: Maryland Governor west More talking with us last month about

1297
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:04,600
Speaker 2: today's development. Now this week at least to port of

1298
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 2: Baltimore's main shipping channel fully reopen Power.

1299
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:12,280
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast.

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Speaker 2: Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify.

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Speaker 3: Or wherever you get your podcasts, and

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Speaker 2: You can find us live every weekday from Washington, DC

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Speaker 2: at Noontimeeastern at Bloomberg dot com.